Subj:	Traveller-digest V1999 #100
Date:	2/7/99 2:57:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
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Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 100



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Shipping tonnage
Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]
[none]
Re: Calling Jeff Zimmerman
Re: Absolutely Nothing to do with Starship Troopers was Re: Starship Troopers
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Planet-building advice needed.
re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking
Meson Guns
Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)
Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)
Re: Bah!
Mr Ritchie, I presume?
Re: 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures 
Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)
GT: StarMercs Ship Designs
Light Assault Gun
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: Big honking computer
Re: Time Travel
Re: Time Travel
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Light Assault Gun

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:35:38 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Shipping tonnage

I've been thinking about how to pack odd shaped objects and packing
crates with regards to the shipping tonnage.  So I was thinking, rather
than charging by displacement tonnage, charge by mass or displacement
whichever is greater.  Since liquid hydrogen is very light 0.07 tons per
cubic meter and by definition one ton (1000 kg) per displacement ton,
almost everything will use the mass scale.  Extremely bulky items like
non-retractable antenna arrays might still get billed by volume.  What
this does is give you significantly more elbow room for most items and
allows you to put the heavy things in convenient shipping crates without
losing volume to the crate material.

As  an example, say you want to ship a car that masses 2.3 tonnes but
displaces 1 ton.  You'd pay for and get 2.3 tons of space to store the
car, thus leaving plenty of room to maneuver around beside it.  Now,
let's say you're shipping computers, nice TL 12 jobs.  At 8 kL (~0.6 dT)
each and 1600 kg, you'd again pay on the mass scale.  Thus about 65% of
the packed volume would be packing material and crating, plus a little
maneuvering space to walk around.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:02:11 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]

Leonard,
Thanks for the info about the Babylonian 'roller seals'.
These must be TL 0 by definition if they antedate writing.

You also wrote :-
> At first, writing is a "secret code". Later, simple codes are devised,
> and the first cryptographic device was a strip of paper wound around a
> rod. you wrote at right angles to the winding, and then sent the paper
> strip. To decode, it had to be wound around a rod of the same size.
> Otherwise the letters didn't line up. 
> 

Yes, I think the Romans commonly used these as well as spacing and
letter substitution codes (alphabet shift initially, then numbers for
letters and the like).

Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
synchronised rolling ciphers).
TL 4 : 1850's - 1920's. Morse code. Number and group theory.
TL 5 : 1920's - end WW2 -> Enigma and similar multi codewheel
scrambling. Microdots.
TL 6 : to the end of the 60's -> information theory, computer based
encryption decryption.
TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
TL 8 : electronic watermarking, PGP
TL 9 : entangled qubits? Hiding information in 'noise'? (chaotic
generators or attractors as messages or keys?).

Any other suggestions would be welcomed.

The crypto and computer rating concepts from 'Central Supply Catalog'
(in GURPS from quite early on - sigh) might be a starting point for
useful T5 rules.....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:24:25 +1000 (EST)
From: JEFFREY MALONE <j1.malone@student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:53:54 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Jeff Zimmerman

SD Mooney wrote:

>Hi, one of my non-TML friends came across a:
>
>"Viking Mercenary class cruiser" from Zeneb Down Station by a Jeff Zimmerman.
>
>Unfortunately he's lost the URL / details.
>
>Does anyone have any contact info?
>
>Dom

Yeah, Jeff's a friend of mine and a player in my last TNE campaign. The
stats and deck plans are available at the Starport section of my website
(the URL's in my signature below).

Jeff designed the ship. I did the deck plans.

Jeff can be reached at jzimmerman@techmar.com.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:54:20 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Absolutely Nothing to do with Starship Troopers was Re: Starship Troopers

><snip of reasoned response>

>
>COMMUNISM
Aw come on, Communism is just a red herring!
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:42:33 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

At 23:47 05.02.99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Ethan Henry wrote:
>
>> I have this, I think I bought it from Marc a while back... Frankly it's not
>> that great. The interior is all photocopies of the original Alien modules
>> (which I also have, minus Alien Realms). The quality is good, but not as
>> good as the original modules. The modules covers in the Enc. are obviously
>> colour photocopies.
>
>Then you and I have different products.  It may be different paper than
>in the original modules, but its not any photocopying I've ever seen
>(which is a goodly amount).
Looking at mine Id say its the Print of a Scan or Copy of the Original,
but not a Photocopy itself. Its ISBN btw: 3-89505-001-6, but as only 200
were produced (mine is 073, who are my neighbors?) id say your best chance
is ordering it from the shop mentioned before on this list.

The price is a bit steep, but consider what the original books would cost
you if you had to buy them now. That, and it looks a lot better than the
books themselves. 
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:55:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Planet-building advice needed.

OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.

What I'd like is a nasty compound that would evaporate in the day side
heat, and percipitate out as the temperture dropped during the long, cold
night.  Something would be fairly bad as part of the atmosphere, but *real*
ugly when it rains out.

Yes, I'm planning on stranding a bunch of player characters in the back
country as night comes on...
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:37:34 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

At 03:30 PM 06/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>There are some things about Traveller space combat that get more
>interesting if multiple-AU range sensors can't be relied on. However,
>this would add another "science exception" to the Traveller universe,
>with lots of possible repercussions.
>
>(btw, the other "science exceptions" are Jump Drive, Contra/Artificial
>Gravity, and Fusion Power...and Fusion Power may soon enter the
>hard science catagory)
>
>Interesting idea, though...when ships can hide, space combat starts
>getting more of an art and less of an excercise in astrophysics.
>
>Walt Smith
>
        Yep... check out the Gundam series for an example of this....
*whole* different world, because they can jam just about every sensor known
to man except the eye-ball.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:52:41 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Meson Guns

Okay, I need some technical data. Could the list give it to me (data that
is) or point me to a website with the info?

Meson Guns
At their intro tech level how large are they? (dimensions, weight, etc)
Power requirements?
Construction requirements? (materials, shielding, etc)
How are they aimed? (computers, focusing equipment etc)
Ranges ?
Control systems needed? (crew, computers etc)

Thanks again if you know of anything I forgot to ask.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:06:51 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)

At 10:09 pm 2/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:47 PM 2/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>	Ah, but the trick that keeps the silly servants ... I mean uncivil
>>servants ... I mean, oh what the heck, what keeps them from voting
>>themselves humongous staffing levels is you CAN'T vote until you
>>LEAVE the federal service ... and if you leave it *any* way but
>>honorably, you've lost it all.
>>
>>	I also recall vaguely that you could either (a) serve one term and
>>get out, or (b) sign up for a full 20 year career. No in-betweens,
>>and no vote until you finish either option ...
>
>This is all true except for the part about civil servants.  My reading of
>the book (I've read it about 20 times, one of my favorites) is that you
>can't even hold office unless you have served at least one term in the
>military.  Originally society had broken down and the only ones who 

	*Federal Service* not just military. The military is only a small
portion of the federal service.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:32:02 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)

At 08:51 am 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 20:27 3-2-99 -0500, David Golden wrote:
>>	The TML is really a "general Traveller" mailing list, and tries* to
>>keep its content of at least passing interest to the majority of the
>>members. More specialized lists are created for spin-offs or
>>narrower-interest topics. Witness the tech mailing list, the writers
>>mailing list, the ship designer's mailing list (lists?), the
>>deckplans mailing list, the CT mailing list, the TNE mailing list
...
>>why not set up a PBEM mailing list?
>
>How do I get onto the tech and ship-designers' lists?

	Hmm ... I think trav-tech-request@qrc.com? Or send "subscribe
trav-tech" to majordomo@qrc.com? I dunno, I still call it the
GDW-Beta list.

	Maybe one of the shipbuilders can give tips.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:14:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Bah!

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Bah!

  Baa? Did I miss a sheep joke? Oh, I see...

>All you "capitalists" (whatever that means :-/ ) and "communists" 
>(whatever that means :-\ ) are all full of it!  The best form of
>government is clearly a FEUDAL TECHNOCRACY! 

  For a moment I thought that you were talking about "normal" technocracy
(which also has a Heinlein tie-in in "The Roads Must Roll", IIRC), and was
thinking that only an Easterner* could possibly fail to see how inferior it
is compared to genuine Social Credit (well, except Albertans, of course).

 <giggle>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:12:11 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Mr Ritchie, I presume?

I am trying to locate a Mr David Ritchie, who wrote a few pieces for various
RPGs. Has anyone on the list heard of him, or know where I could find him?




GLADSTONE: "Mr Disraeli, you will probably die by the hangman's noose or a
vile disease".
DISRAELI: "That depends on whether I embrace your principles or your
mistress".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:34:08 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures 

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Mercenaries and Vehicle Conversions
...
>	2) Are there any decent 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures on the market now?

  Not that we can find in NorAm - apparently the UK is better supplied by
their small foundry industry, but finding contact info, and shipping costs!!

 <grumble>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:07:49 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)

>Dave Hollenbaugh wrote:
>> I've always had a bit of a problem explaining high-tech, high-pop
>> worlds with extremely repressive governments. Put's me in the mind
>> of Orwell's _1984_, or better, Ayn Rand's _Anthem_. How do you
>> maintain a technological society without free speech, free though,
>> and most importantly, free enterprise?
>
>You could also run a world along the lines of  The  Village  from
>the Prisoner TV series.  (There is even a  GURPS Prisoner  book!)
>Free speech/thought is  not  banned  _directly_,  but  indirectly
>through mind-games aimed at  eradicating  social  non-conformity.
>Free enterprise is allowed, and radicals are tolerated for a time
>but closely monitored and channeled.  A high-tech, high-pop world
>could develop a repressive _culture_ regardless of its government
>structure (even a 'democracy').  And  repressive  governments  do
>not automatically mean low standard of living.

Have a look at Niven's "Known Universe" during the ARM years as well

"Free speech" is not banned, but innovation is cafefully controlled
and violence is banned. And just about every crime is punishable by
death, to feed the organ banks for the good citizens to live forever
on....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:33:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: GT: StarMercs Ship Designs

Hi all,

StarMercs re-introduces fusion guns (which are a close in weapon, and look
like they're used for ground support). I notice that all the designs with
them in given in the book limit the Fusion/Plasma weapons to 2 per turret,
as per High Guard. This isn't implictly stated - should this be errata?

MJD? Loren?

(I'd rather not have a debate about the validity of energy weapons in
Traveller because I may have to handwave back or throw large bricks at
laser weapons. It is Science *Fiction*.)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:42:03 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Light Assault Gun

Does anyone  have the T4/FFS2 stats for the good old Light Assault Gun?  It
doesn't appear in Emperor's Arsenal or Core book, before I took the trouble to
run the numbers, I wanted to see if any of you had done it.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:53:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

Mike Smith wrote:

> OBTrav, what sort of computer speeds do 'humans' have at various tl's?  It
> keeps going on about needing 'very powerful' computers for calculating
> stutterwarp steps and things, but I don't recall reading about actual
> numbers.
> 
> Silly thing is that with MPP systems, the minimum calculation time is still
> the time it takes for one of the processors to do one calculation.  A law of
> diminishing returns comes into it somewhere, too.

Well, the problem with doing thing with MPP systems, is that the science and
practice of 'parallel-izing' problems isn't very adavanced, compared to say,
TL-12 systems. The diminishing returns you speak of are with extant compilers,
optimizers and OS'es. While there is always a point where throwing more
processors, memory and HD space at a problem won't speed it up, we've seemed
to avoid that so far ;-) 

(OTOH, throwing more processor, memory and HD space at a problem CAN slow it
down...witness <insert favorite extant OS to bash here>)

Concrete specifications on computers in Trav have always been vague. About the
only example I can grab off hand is from T4, which states that the very best
parallel processing computers at TL-7 have a comp rating of 1. This would be
something like a Conenctions Machine, or a high end Cray. The Intel Nuclear
Monster at Sandia is probably a 1.5 or close to a 2. The next line in the book
talks about TL-12 personal computers _starting_ at 2. 

Ye Ghods, what bloatware Windows Milieu 0 must be...;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:01:07 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Big honking computer

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> It has 9,260 200 MHz Pentium Pro processors, 573 gigabytes of
> system memory and 2.25 terabytes of disk storage.

I bet it takes a long time to re-boot ever time Windows gives you
a blue screen crash!  Scandisk alone would take hours!  8-^



Regards PLST

"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:47:52 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

Leonard Erikson wrote:
> That'd be a "global causality violation". And tends to have bad
> consequences.

Oh, do people  know  what  would  happen?  What  are  these  "bad
consequences" (other than giving physicists a headache)?



> *Local* casuality violations are things such as your future self
> dropping in for a short visit.  As long as you actually *do* make the
> visit, then the consequences aren't nearly as messy (in fact, you may
> not be able to *not* make the visit!).

That was what I liked about the film 'The Terminator',  something
totally contradicted in the sequal 'T2'.



Regards PLST

"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:49:23 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

Joe Webb wrote:
> Robert Ringrose wrote
> > Why _can't_ there be an object which exists purely in a time
> > loop (i.e., I pick up a rock, send it back in time, it gets
> > put down in the place where I picked it up)?  There _isn't_
> > an answer to "where did the rock come from," it's just the
> > state the universe is in.
>
> Wouldn't this violate Conservation of Matter/Energy?  (he said,
> playing devils advocate).  The rock would have materialized out
> of no where, lasted a while, then vanish.  Where did the matter
> come from if not the Big Bang? Something outside our universe?
> A pocket universe perhaps?  Who has those?

Doesn't quantum mechanics have this sort of thing happen all  the
time  on  the  subatomic  level  level?  Matter  and  energy  are
'borrowed' for a time and then vanish.  Also, this is as good  an
explanation as any for the existance  of  the  universe  ...  the
ultimate volation of the law of Conservation of Matter/Energy!



Regards PLST

"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:38:19 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

I want to know why there aren't any plasma, fusion, or gauss small arms in
the T4 manual...

Was Marc trying to create a kindler, gentler Traveller?  I also notice that
Augmented Battle Dress is "top secret" stuff, meaning the stats and details
aren't in the book.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Light Assault Gun


>Does anyone  have the T4/FFS2 stats for the good old Light Assault Gun?  It
>doesn't appear in Emperor's Arsenal or Core book, before I took the trouble
to
>run the numbers, I wanted to see if any of you had done it.
>
> Dave Nelson
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:31:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

From: Clif 
> I want to know why there aren't any plasma, fusion, or gauss small arms
in
> the T4 manual...
> 
> Was Marc trying to create a kindler, gentler Traveller?  I also notice
that
> Augmented Battle Dress is "top secret" stuff, meaning the stats and
details
> aren't in the book.

None of these weapons appeared in the original Black Box Traveller.  They
were introduced in Book 4: Mercenary.

In T4, they are in Emperor's Arsenal.  Augmented BD is in Central Supply
Catalog, and in various versions in EA.  

I guess T4 was just following the pattern in CT.  It's a bit of a ripoff
for people who just bought T4 and didn't want to load up on lots of
supplements though.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #100
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</HTML>
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 8 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 101



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Time Travel
Fw: job ad
Re: job ad
Re: Calling Jeff Zimmerman
re: Re: 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures 
Re: Ship Operator's Manual
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #100
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: Light Assault Gun
GURPS: Traveller's White Knight or vice versa?
Re: Meson Guns
Re: GURPS: Traveller's White Knight or vice versa?
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Alien Realms Copy Wanted
Sector Questions, simple I know
Lecture Tour (longish)
GT: dispersed hulls
Re: Shipping tonnage
What the heck?
Re: What the heck?
Re: Sector Questions, simple I know
Repressive government

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:58:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Time Travel

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>Another aspect is that what you *see* may not mean what you think it
>does. Did the ship explode? Or was that a bad jump flash?

Or was it another ship of the same design that blew up (borrowing a plot
device from "Blake's 7")?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:22:37 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Fw: job ad

Life in the Far Future?

> Here is a job ad from a Pittsburgh paper.  
> 
> 			ROBOT TECHNICIAN
> 
> "Robot technicians assist a robotic prescription-filling unit with
> filling prescriptions.  Duties include preparing prescription vials,
> loading those vials onto the robot, and stocking the robot with
> appropriate drugs.  Very fast-paced, team-oriented position that
> requires a lot of standing.  No experience necessary."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:14:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: job ad

So instead of the robot helping the human, the human is helping the robot
and has to keep pace with it.

That sucks.

==Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 6:07 PM
Subject: Fw: job ad


>Life in the Far Future?
>
>> Here is a job ad from a Pittsburgh paper.
>>
>> ROBOT TECHNICIAN
>>
>> "Robot technicians assist a robotic prescription-filling unit with
>> filling prescriptions.  Duties include preparing prescription vials,
>> loading those vials onto the robot, and stocking the robot with
>> appropriate drugs.  Very fast-paced, team-oriented position that
>> requires a lot of standing.  No experience necessary."
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:49:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Jeff Zimmerman

Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com> wrote:

>Yeah, Jeff's a friend of mine and a player in my last TNE campaign. The
>stats and deck plans are available at the Starport section of my website
>(the URL's in my signature below).

Thanks for the details - I'll pass them on.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:53:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Re: 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures 

Comrade Hudsom writes:

>>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>>Subject: Mercenaries and Vehicle Conversions
>...
>>	2) Are there any decent 15mm Sci-Fi miniatures on the market now?
>
>  Not that we can find in NorAm - apparently the UK is better supplied by
>their small foundry industry, but finding contact info, and shipping costs!!
>
> <grumble>

You could try Jon Tuffley (author of Full Thrust and owner of GZG) at
Ground Zero by email jon@gzero.dungeon.com - he'll probably know who makes
15mm if he doesn't do them himself.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:04:34 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual

Does anyone know of a copy for sale? I checked some of the used game 
sites on the Web to no avail....

TIA
Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:37:54 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

In a message dated 2/6/99 8:28:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
greimann@geocities.com writes:

<<  (mine is 073, who are my neighbors?) i >>

I have #72 

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:53:39 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #100

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:52:41 -0600
> From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
> Subject: Meson Guns
>
> Okay, I need some technical data. Could the list give it to me (data that
> is) or point me to a website with the info?
>
> Meson Guns
> At their intro tech level how large are they? (dimensions, weight, etc)

According to FF&S, I never bought FF&S2, they can be anysize at the designer's
specifications.

> Power requirements?

Based on size and range, anywhere from to 0.0001MW to 1000GW, its really up to you,
they're customizable so that the Meson gun you install in your Far Trader has different
spec's than the Meson Gun in a Vorshielef(?).

> Construction requirements? (materials, shielding, etc)

Don't know...

> How are they aimed? (computers, focusing equipment etc)

Beam Pointer, targeting computer, that's about it.  Oh ya, point the ship in the right
direction.  8^)

> Ranges ?

Again dependent upon the damage, size, and power input.  Could be 0.0001 of a hex or 80
hexes.

> Control systems needed? (crew, computers etc)

Again dependent upon the size and TL of the weapon.  A TL15 100MW meson weapon will
require a smaller crew than a TL12 100MW weapon.  Truely massive spinal or deep meson
sites can require a crew of 100's...

> Thanks again if you know of anything I forgot to ask.

I realize that's not much help but unfortunately it's the truth.  Antti on the TNE-RCES
list built a spreadsheet for building TNE starship, the relic builder version of the sheet
includes the TNE starship weapon construction pages.

http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/

Hope this helps you some...


> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:42:03 EST
> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> Subject: Light Assault Gun
>
> Does anyone  have the T4/FFS2 stats for the good old Light Assault Gun?  It
> doesn't appear in Emperor's Arsenal or Core book, before I took the trouble to
> run the numbers, I wanted to see if any of you had done it.
>
>                 Dave Nelson

I never really saw much of a use for the LAG, it's heavy, has brutal recoil, doesn't do a
whole hell of a lot of damage in comparison to it's size and has a pitiful magazine
capacity.  All in all it'd get dumped by any military force in a hurry.

Build a 10mm gauss rifle, does more damage, less recoil, weighs less and can rip holes
through light battle dress at anything under 200meters.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:51:50 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

At 05:05 PM 2/5/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello folks,
>
>I only got the Vilani&Vargr- and the Solomani&Aslan-Guide.
>
>Is there any chance to get the rest and where ?
If you have V&V and S&A then you have all of them.  These were the Digest
Group Alien Modules, and that is all they produced before getting out of
(or being forced out of) the Traveller line.  The only 'Alien' book that
was also published was Flaming Eye, which was an adventure for V&V, of
which I happen to own a spare copy.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:35:38 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

In a message dated 2/7/99 2:55:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, brclif@digital.net
writes:

<< I want to know why there aren't any plasma, fusion, or gauss small arms in
 the T4 manual...
  >>
I thought that the range of weapons in the main T4 book were about the same as
the ones given in the original Traveller LBB. (T4 has Laser pistol instead of
carbine, LBB has more blades, T4 has snub pistol P003 instead of autopistol,
but otherwise about the same range.)  So I kind of expected to see the LAG in
Emperor's arsenal, where the Gauss and Plasma weapons do show up (Fusion guns
presumably aren't  invented in Mileau 0, nor were the found in Second Imperium
records, nor projected by Mil 0 futurists, so they don't appear)  but it isn't
there, the LAG shows up in GURPS, but that doesn't help me.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:47:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: GURPS: Traveller's White Knight or vice versa?

Dear Folks -

Something of interest noted by my FLGS. When I said that GURPS may become
the saviour of Traveller, they said it may be the other way around! They
haven't sold any GURPS material for ages. Now, however, ALL their
GURPS:Traveller material is sold as soon as it hits the store!
(I'm going to lay-by Star Mercs tomorrow - AU$39.95, ouch!)

BTW: re. Clif's excellent "HoloVid, Tonight" posting - Doug, this
definitely deserves a place in the Silly Era!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:12:01 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

Thomas Vickers wrote:
> 
> Okay, I need some technical data. Could the list give it to me (data that
> is) or point me to a website with the info?
> 
> Meson Guns
> At their intro tech level how large are they? (dimensions, weight, etc)
> Power requirements?
> Construction requirements? (materials, shielding, etc)
> How are they aimed? (computers, focusing equipment etc)
> Ranges ?
> Control systems needed? (crew, computers etc)
> 
> Thanks again if you know of anything I forgot to ask.
> 
> TV

Obviously, this depends on the Traveller system you're using.  In High
Guard, 2d edition, the first meson guns appear at TL-11.  The USP A
spinal mount requires 5000 dt, 500 energy points, and costs 10,000 MCr. 
USB B takes up 8000 dt of space, uses 600 energy points, and costs
12,000 MCr.

La la'aba ila' al-musaafir, wa al-haaris al-a'aalii risaalat al-la'aba.

(Translation:  There is no game but Traveller, and High Guard is its
message.)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:31:16 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS: Traveller's White Knight or vice versa?

In a message dated 2/7/99 9:51:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, david.d.jaques-
watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

> Something of interest noted by my FLGS. When I said that GURPS may become
>  the saviour of Traveller, they said it may be the other way around! They
>  haven't sold any GURPS material for ages. Now, however, ALL their
>  GURPS:Traveller material is sold as soon as it hits the store!
>  (I'm going to lay-by Star Mercs tomorrow - AU$39.95, ouch!)

Well, Steve Jackson Games did go through some financial trouble recently
from which the Traveller line is helping them recover.  I don't think they were
in any danger of collapse before that, though.

I think the thing about GURPS is that it's never quite reached that critical
mass of players such that it's played everywhere that gaming goes on.
Thus you get areas where it's popular and areas where it isn't.  Around
here (Baltimore-Washington area in the eastern US) GURPS has been
pretty popular for years and it tends to sell well.  I'm aware of other regions
where that's less true.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:37:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

Robert O'Connor writes:
>Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>synchronised rolling ciphers).

You can do that at TL 0

> TL 4 : 1850's - 1920's. Morse code. Number and group theory.

You can have that at TL 0.

>TL 5 : 1920's - end WW2 -> Enigma and similar multi codewheel
>scrambling. Microdots.

For microdots you need pretty advanced photography, but codewheels and
similar engines can be handbuilt by craftsmen. And you can propably get
some kind of micro-writing -- well, mini-writing, anyway -- as soon as
you can make a microscope.

>TL 6 : to the end of the 60's -> information theory, computer based
>encryption decryption.

You can't have computer based decryption without a computer, of course,
but as for information theory: _Any_ sort of pure knowledge is TL 0.

>TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
>plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).

Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual encryption
schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about public key
encryption.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:48:59 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Alien Realms Copy Wanted

A while back Marc Miller graciously said that folks were free to exchange
xeroxes of various CT products since all of them are long out-of-print.  I
have loads of CT stuff, but lack Alien Realms.  I'd dearly love a xerox of
Alien Realms.  I'd be happy to negotiate on this. I just picked up a used
copy of The Traveller Adventure, which I'd be willing to copy in return,
or simply ask what you want a xerox of, and let's talk.  To avoid clogging
the list with this, please email me directly. 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:14:23 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Sector Questions, simple I know

Just out of curiousity, anyone know where I can find a list of what sectors
of the Imperium (and its immediate vicinity) were defined/fleshed out by
either GDW or DGP?

Also, which sector was reserved for the exclusive development of the
Referee?

My brain is mushy tonight. . . .


On a better note, Roderick Darroch Elliott brought a dictophone to our last
session, which bodes well for a write-up sometime in the next week or two
(assuming he didn't waste all those tapes belching into it and playing it
back at varying speeds. . . nice, that.)


Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:28:32 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Lecture Tour (longish)

TAS News Service...Rhylanor...011-1105
  
Doctor Kylor Dukagen of the Rhylanor Institute of Socio-History has 
announced a leave of absence from the Institute in the wake of his
ground-breaking, popular release of _Unicorn Rising: A Frontier Comes
of Age in the Second Millenium_. This scholarly work has made Dr.
Dukagen well-known in intellectual circles throughout the Domain of Deneb, 
but this new popular release, edited andannotated with the general public in 
mind, has made his name a familiar one from Corridor to the Zhodani border.

According to a spokesperson of the Institute, Dr. Dukagen will be using his
leave of absence to undertake a lecture tour of all the subsector capitols
and other selected worlds within the Spinward Marches. The doctor hopes,
sources said, to take advantage of these personal appearances to "further
develop his work against the broad mosaic of cultures and peoples that make up our domain of the Imperium".
  
Rumor has it that the Sector Duke at Regina was particularly taken by the
ideas presented in the work, and intends invite Dr. Dukagen to stay at length
at the sector capitol, perhaps with an offer of an advisory position. The
book's signature phrase of unity, "all of us together behind the claw", has
already been heard in communiques and government addresses on both Rhylanor and Regina.
  
Doctor Dukagen's exact itinerary has not been made public at this time.
  
  
Doctor Kylor Dukagen. Scientist, 6 terms. Age 50 Human Male,
homeworld Regina
458CE9  Admin-2, Computer-2, Grav-1, Vacc Suit-1 
Cr150000, Imperial Science Union Member, Pocket Computer
  
Doctor Dukagen is a tall, dark-haired man, his hair slowly turning salt and
pepper with advancing age. He is usually more adept with computer records 
and libraries than he is with people, but is slowly growing into his newfound
popularity. He is currently travelling between major worlds of the Spinward
Marches on a combination lecture tour and sociological research trip.
  
Doctor Dukagen has never in his life been in a life-or-death situation. While
not especially cowardly, his first response to such a situation would almost
certainly be either flight or freezing with panic. His approach to any conflict
situation of a non-violent nature is to talk things out in a reasonable fashion, 
based on his world-view that people can always find common ground.
  
The good doctor is an avid collector of space exploration memorabilia, and
loves to spend time on starliners buying drinks for talkative members and
ex-members of the IISS. Note that he is smart enough to recognize most
tall tales when he hears them, but may continue buying drinks if the teller
is entertaining enough.
  
Plot hooks:
1. Dr. Kylor Dukagen is a cousin of noted journalist Enli Iddukagan (see
JTAS #22). This somewhat questionable reporter may try to attach himself
to his cousin's group, so as to try and gain advantage of Dr. Dukagen's
newfound fame. Enli will attempt to gain access to information and areas
not open to the public, with the players (and the Doctor) caught in the
middle.
2. Dr. Dukagen is carrying with him a piece from his space exploration
memorabilia collection, an old scout's logbook. He intends to present it to
a correspondent of his, a curator of a museum along his route. Unknown to
Dr. Dukagen, the logbook contains jump coordinates for a derelict starship
of unusual design. An assistant of the curator has determined the 
information exists from a scanned copy of the log, but needs the 
original...and wants to get it before the curator gets it into the well-secured 
museum.
3. As #2, but the information leads to a series of Imperial deep-space
refuelling sites - the knowledge of which would prove damaging to the 
Imperium, both diplomatically and militarily. The assistant curator is a spy 
for a  foriegn power.
4. Dr. Dukagen's message of unity has been irritating to a radical group on
a planet along his route. A small group of dissidents will attempt to harass
him upon his arrival, and will look for methods of delaying, embarrassing
and even blackmailing him to interfere with his personal appearances.
5. As #4, but the dissidents will attempt to kidnap him, offering his safe
return in exchange for his reading a prepared statement to the media - 
which he will refuse to do. It will not even occur to him to later recant the
statement, or that people will ignore it as being given under duress.
6. As #5, but the dissidents will attempt to publicly assassinate Dr. 
Dukagen for anti-imperial purposes.
  
In all cases, the players could be friends, travelling companions or 
simply people he bought drinks for in a starport or shipboard tavern.
  
Walt Smith  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:44:10 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: GT: dispersed hulls

There has been some discussion off and on about what constitutes a
dispersed hull structure (a la High Guard and later Traveller construction
rules) in GURPS Traveller's component ship design system.

It occured to me today that GURPS Vehicles would say that a dispersed
structure -- essentially a framework of structural members to which
individual components are attached -- would be a hull with the "open frame
armor" option, per VE2, p. 23. This saves considerable weight (and
therefore expense) at the cost of less protection for the components
themselves. 

The difficulty is, this rule can't simply be applied directly to the armor
weight and cost. Open frame armor cannot be sealed, and so all the
habitable parts of such a ship would have to be armored separately, under
the component armor option (VE2, p. 27) -- this involves broadening the
existing rule on sealed hulls (p. 24) to components, but I don't think this
is unreasonable. 

Using this approach requires calculating in detail the volume (and thus
surface area) of each separate sealed section, and then applying armor to
it. I propose the following simpified "house rule" for your consideration;
although it is inaccurate, I don't believe it is any more so than the
rounded off values for surface area already in the GT hull chart.

"Dispersed Structure: Starships that are never intended to enter an
atmosphere may reduce the weight of their armor by substituting open
framework for the hull over the unpressurized portions of the ship. 

"First choose the DR of the hull and determine weight normally (p. GT152).
Calculate the reduction in weight by first dividing the ship's internal
spaces into pressurized and unpressurized sections. Divide the number of
spaces allocated to the unpressurized section by the total number of
internal spaces; multiply the total hull weight by this figure to arrive at
the fraction of the hull weight over unpressurized sections. Multiply this
weight by 80% and subtract the result from the total hull weight. Calculate
price normally, based on the reduced total weight.

"Open frame armor protects normally against collisions, but provides only a
2-in-6 chance of protecting against contact missiles and no protection at
all against beam weapons or explosions."

Dispersed structures are most useful at lower tech levels (to save weight)
and for LASH freighters and battlerider tenders, where unpressurized
vehicle bays (volume-based) may be more efficient than external cradles
(weight-based) for carrying very heavy riders.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:53:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping tonnage

>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Shipping tonnage
...
>As  an example, say you want to ship a car that masses 2.3 tonnes but
>displaces 1 ton.  You'd pay for and get 2.3 tons of space to store the
>car, thus leaving plenty of room to maneuver around beside it.  Now,
>let's say you're shipping computers, nice TL 12 jobs.  At 8 kL (~0.6 dT)
>each and 1600 kg, you'd again pay on the mass scale.  Thus about 65% of
>the packed volume would be packing material and crating, plus a little
>maneuvering space to walk around.

  There will immense economic (competitive) pressure to charge by volume,
as that's how ship design (and cost) is figured. FWIW, a 2-Dt AFV can
easily mass from 10 to 35+ tonnes; the IM APC is _600,000_ kilos, but only
12-Dt, IIRC.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:54:10 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: What the heck?

  I found the following on a local distributors (T.D. Imports) catalog
site, under a product code of "CHX LE297":

>Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket 

  Huh?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What the heck?

Hmm . . . [flip, flip, rustle]  Gee, don't seem to have one of those. 
How much is it? ;-)


- ---Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>   I found the following on a local distributors (T.D. Imports) catalog
> site, under a product code of "CHX LE297":
> 
> >Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket 
> 
>   Huh?
> 
> 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
List your Traveller cargoes for sale or wanted
on the "Subsidized Merchant" page - 
http://surf.to/traveller-trader 


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:48:00 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Sector Questions, simple I know

At 11:14 PM 2/7/1999 -0500, Ross Coburn wrote:
>Also, which sector was reserved for the exclusive development of the
>Referee?
>
Foreven was set for exclusive use in Imperiallines #1.  It listed the 5
official worlds in Foreven (the 2 from DA5 Chamax Plague/Horde, the Zhodani
Regional capital, the capital of an important multi-system Imperial client
state, and a single world Imperial client state).

It also had a map depicting the layout of the sector with the hexes marked
where a system is (but that was all) as well as the borders.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:27:19 PST
From: "Dave Hollenbaugh" <hollenbaugh@hotmail.com>
Subject: Repressive government

- - From Peter L.S. Trevor
You could also run a world along the lines of  The  Village  from
the Prisoner TV series.  (There is even a  GURPS Prisoner  book!)
Free speech/thought is  not  banned  _directly_,  but  indirectly
through mind-games aimed at  eradicating  social  non-conformity.
Free enterprise is allowed, and radicals are tolerated for a time
but closely monitored and channeled.  A high-tech, high-pop world
could develop a repressive _culture_ regardless of its government
structure (even a 'democracy').  And  repressive  governments  do
not automatically mean low standard of living.

- -From Dave Nelson
You can maintain just about anything as long as you have the stomach to 
kill
people with regularity.   Say for instance your repressive regime is 
backed up
by armed robots absolutely loyal to the planetary government.  If you 
have
"censor" computers watching all communications and robots to do the 
dirty
work, then resistence might be really diffficult.   You would have to 
pay huge
rewards to the workers and inventors who maintained the system to ensure
theuir loyalty, but everyone else might be in deep trouble.

Thanks for your responses. It's getting hard for me to keep coming up 
with explanations for all of these worlds. It's hard to keep falling 
back on "the old Government was overthrown and a religious 
dictatorship/totalitarian state put up in it's place.
From both of your posts it kind of looks like these societies are 
capable of maintaining the status quo, but I would think that they would 
be pretty stagnant culturally and technologically. This brings up 
another question. How did they achieve such high tech levels to begin 
with? The only immediate solution I see is to import technology from 
neighbor worlds and slowly integrate it into their own society. Thoughts 
from the rest of the list? If I'm reading both of your posts correctly, 
the scientists and philosophers are going to be the first ones shipped 
off for "reeducation".

Dave Hollenbaugh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #101
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 8 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 102



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Vegans
Re: Meson Guns
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket  (was Re: What the heck?)
Re: What the heck?
Pixel resolution
PBEM Logs Mailing List
Re: Repressive government
Re: Light Assault Gun
Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]
Re: Time Travel
Re: Looking ideas
Re: Planet-building advice needed.
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Repressive government
Re: timetravel
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:29:21 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Vegans

Was there ever anything published on the Vegans other than the library 
data?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:02:20 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
>Subject: Meson Guns
>
>Okay, I need some technical data. Could the list give it to me (data that
>is) or point me to a website with the info?
>
>Meson Guns
>At their intro tech level how large are they? (dimensions, weight, etc)
>Power requirements?
>Construction requirements? (materials, shielding, etc)
>How are they aimed? (computers, focusing equipment etc)
>Ranges ?
>Control systems needed? (crew, computers etc)
>
>Thanks again if you know of anything I forgot to ask.

Meson Guns are TL11 weapons that get gradually more efficient (meson
screens are TL12).

The designers of FFS2 forgot to put in a minimum length or diameter, so you
can buy the Famile Spofulam Meson Gunnette as part of the Barbie's Own
Battledress line of Small High Energy Toys.

Their range is a function of their length, and they have the usual
accumulator banks and beam pointer of a particle-beam weapon. Their
diameter is defined by their output.

I'd say there is some fairly chunky radiation shielding and whatnot, and I
really like the idea of them putting out heaps and heaps of magnetic
induction, ionisation and so on.

Starship meson guns tend to be very long, as you basically need a meter of
length per 1000 km of range and a square meter of cross-section per hundred
megajoules of output.

Power requirements is this usual 5 megajoules of input per megajoule of
output.

Toss in a beam pointer to aim it and a Indirect Fire Direction Center to
let you use skeet shoot for Grav Tanks from the other side of your local
mountain range or planetoid and you have your Meson Gun.

Crewing is one per couple of hundred cubic meters of tunnel, depending on
how good your linked computer system is.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:35:25 +1300
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

>Mike Smith wrote:
>
>> Silly thing is that with MPP systems, the minimum calculation time is still
>> the time it takes for one of the processors to do one calculation.  A law of
>> diminishing returns comes into it somewhere, too.
>
>Well, the problem with doing thing with MPP systems, is that the science and
>practice of 'parallel-izing' problems isn't very adavanced, compared to say,
>TL-12 systems. The diminishing returns you speak of are with extant compilers,
>optimizers and OS'es. While there is always a point where throwing more
>processors, memory and HD space at a problem won't speed it up, we've seemed
>to avoid that so far ;-)


True.  Ever tried to explain Windows style more-than-one-thing-at-a-time to
a DOS programmer?

>(OTOH, throwing more processor, memory and HD space at a problem CAN slow
it
>down...witness <insert favorite extant OS to bash here>)


Too many chiefs and not enough indians.

>The Intel Nuclear
>Monster at Sandia is probably a 1.5 or close to a 2. The next line in the
book
>talks about TL-12 personal computers _starting_ at 2.


So my palmpilot won't cut it, then?

I'd guess that a '2' would run a mean game of carmageddon!!!  What does the
computer techo on a ship *do* though?  Programming is surely a thing of the
ancient past (they did *what*- what were they, cavemen?) that scene from
startrek pops to mind with Scotty talking to a mouse :)

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:42:55 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket  (was Re: What the heck?)

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
 
> I found the following on a local distributors (T.D. Imports) catalog
> site, under a product code of "CHX LE297":
> 
> Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket 
> 
>   Huh?

I am not sure if this item was ever produced.  The Traveller Imperial
Navy Flight Jacket was solicited by Chessex around May of 1997.  IIRC it
was to be about $129.95 & was to be size L or XL only.  It was a
synthetic (nylon?) type zip up flight jacket with an Imperial Starburst
on the back.  I do not recall color [er colour] etc.  (I did not pay
much attention at the time since I wear a Medium.)  Chessex was having
some financial difficulties at the time so they did not end up producing
everything they solicited for & may not have produced it depending on
the size of the orders they received.  In 1998 Chessex & the Armoury
merged to form Alliance so if anyone would know if this product is still
available or was ever done it should be Alliance.  I would suggest
having your FLGS ask Alliance.  Marc Miller might know if it was ever
produced since I assume it was liscensed from him.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 00:53:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: What the heck?

>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: What the heck?
...
>>   I found the following on a local distributors (T.D. Imports) catalog
>> site, under a product code of "CHX LE297":
>> 
>> >Traveller Imperial Navy Flight Jacket 
...
>Hmm . . . [flip, flip, rustle]  Gee, don't seem to have one of those. 
>How much is it? ;-)

  $CDN 179.95, IIRC. I assume that CHX means that they procure it from/through
Chessex. Weird:

>Made of grey Water repellant
>DuPont Nylon Flight Satin on
>the outside and nylon flight
>lining and polyester batting
>interlining in rescue orange on
>the inside. Front closure storm
>flap, knit collar, zippered utility
>pocket and heavy duty zipper.
>Embroidered with a yellow
>Imperial Sunburst on the back
>surrounded by the words
>Imperial Interstellar Navy. On
>the front left breast pocket
>the same sunburst is in red
>with the word TRAVELLER
>through it in black. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:13:21 +1300
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Pixel resolution

Any physicists out there know what the best pixel resolution, say in the
infrared spectrum, you can expect from a LEO satellite on a planet with an
atmosphere similar to our own?

What about over-sampling, or increasing resolution by taking multiple
overlapping shots?

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:12:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: PBEM Logs Mailing List

        Earlier this month (or was it January?) there was some discussion
about the creation of a PBEM Story List, for posting the game logs of PBEM's
to.  The idea was to keep the TML clear of that type of traffic.  I am
willing to host such a list.  Anyone interested in being on it, please
e-mail "listmaster@atlantic-online.ns.ca" with a note asking to be
subscribed to "PBEM-Logs".  
        Purpose of the list is a) entertainment, b) idea-mining, c) GM
critiques and comments on plot elements, etc.  The list will not be
restricted to Traveller only;  however, I suspect that is all the initial
traffic will be.  Also, "tidied up" captures from PB-IRC games are also welcome.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:36:32 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Repressive government

From: Dave Hollenbaugh 
> >From both of your posts it kind of looks like these societies are 
> capable of maintaining the status quo, but I would think that they would 
> be pretty stagnant culturally and technologically. This brings up 
> another question. How did they achieve such high tech levels to begin 
> with? The only immediate solution I see is to import technology from 
> neighbor worlds and slowly integrate it into their own society. Thoughts 
> from the rest of the list? If I'm reading both of your posts correctly, 
> the scientists and philosophers are going to be the first ones shipped 
> off for "reeducation".

Umm, how about scientists, engineers, philosophers and artists are part of
a privileged group, while the "robot technicians" and peasants are the
groups subject to repression.  That is, the privileged group live very
well, and even are quite free to live as they wish, as long as they support
the status quo and/or keep their mouths shut.  

This is of course the standard pattern followed by probably about 90% of
the authoritarian governments that have ever existed.

In most of the other cases, most of the intellectuals may have been
supporters of the old regime, and may be subject to purges.  This will
freeze intellectual development for a while, at least until they are
replaced.

Alternatively, the intelligentsia may have been dynamic in the past, but
have since become paralysed by the system.  Examples of this could include
China and Japan in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries, or Europe
slightly earlier.  Europe had a couple of centuries of endemic war and a
series of revolutions before it threw off the paralysing effects of the
previous orthodoxies.  These societies will be apparently stagnant, but may
have the seeds of something new within them.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 03:17:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Light Assault Gun

At 02:38 PM 2/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I want to know why there aren't any plasma, fusion, or gauss small arms in
>the T4 manual...

One reason is T4 is base TL12, and plasma, fusion and gauss weapons were
bleeding edge technology.  Those weapons appeared in EA.

Remember, Gauss, fusion et al waited until Book 4 in CT.
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:25:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]

In mail, robocon@ozemail.com.au writes:

> Leonard,
> Thanks for the info about the Babylonian 'roller seals'.
> These must be TL 0 by definition if they antedate writing.
>
> You also wrote :-
>> At first, writing is a "secret code". Later, simple codes are devised,
>> and the first cryptographic device was a strip of paper wound around a
>> rod. you wrote at right angles to the winding, and then sent the paper
>> strip. To decode, it had to be wound around a rod of the same size.
>> Otherwise the letters didn't line up. 
>
> Yes, I think the Romans commonly used these as well as spacing and
> letter substitution codes (alphabet shift initially, then numbers for
> letters and the like).

The earliest substitution ciphers are Caesar ciphers after Julius
Caesar's alleged use of one where A=C, B=D, etc

> Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-

TL2: multiple substition ciphers (ie early Vigneirre(sp) ciphers) where
multiple cipher alphabets are used in some pattern to encode the plain
text. Invisible ink (a form of steganography), while possible at
earlier levels seems to have been discovered at this level. Also
transposition ciphers (where the letters are unchanged, but the order
is scrambled according to some rule or rules) appear. And in
Elizabethan times, "nomenclators" appear. These are the first
proto-codes. Inside cipher messages "code words" are used to refer to
specific persons, countries, and occasionally objects. 

Thus deciphering a message would get you:

Be warned XXZZYY is going to be at ASSDW on May 15th. 

Makes things harder...

> TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
> synchronised rolling ciphers).

Thomas Jefferson (yse, the one who wrote the Declaration of
Indpendence) invented the first mechanical encryption device. It was
ignored and later *re-invented* for use in WWII and Korea! It consisted
of a series of disk (identified by numbers) each of which had a
scrambled alphbet printed on the rim. The "key" was a list of which
disks were to be used and in what order. You strung them on a threaded
rod, placed a washer on each end and used wingnuts to hold them in
place. To encipher a message you turned the disks until the plain text
was reproduced in a line running the length of the cylinder. You then
picked one of the 25 *other* lines of text running along the cylinder
and sent that. At the other end, they turned their disks until the
ciphertext was reproduced, and then looked to see which of the other 25
rows made sense. That was the plain text. 

If the message was too long to fit on one row, you
enciphered/deciphered the message in chunks. It was a great "tactical"
level cipher device. Easy to build and use, and secure enough to be
safe for a reasonable length of time. The advent of computers killed
it. 

The first *true* codes probably appeared in this period. These are
where each end has a list of words and phrases with a multi-letter or
number "group" that is to represent the word or phrase. The receiver
has a list of the code groups with the phrases written out after them. 

Codes are *much* harder to crack than ciphers. But computers have
pretty much killed them too.

> TL 4 : 1850's - 1920's. Morse code. Number and group theory.

Decryption becomes formalized. Most countries not only have departments
devoted to breaking enemy codes and ciphers, but they have begun to be
*systematic* in the breaking of ciphers.

We also get the typewriter, teletype and the fax in this period (the
fax predates the telephone!). Teletype (TTY) and typewriters lead to
mechanical encryption devices (ie you merely type in the plain text and
out comes the cipher text, and vice-versa). 

The enigma type devices were actually products of *this* period. They
just took a while to become common.

Crypto theory becomes well developed, and is first made public at the
end of this period (Yardley's book about the "American Black Chamber").

Steganography hits its first peak. Messages are hidden as moves in
games of postal chess, as tiny dots or pinpricks over letters in
newsclippings, newspapers or books.

> TL 5 : 1920's - end WW2 -> Enigma and similar multi codewheel
> scrambling. Microdots.

Enigma is TL 4. Voice scrambling is is a TL5 developement. So is TV. 
Microdots *may* be TL4. 

One time code pads probably arise at this time.

> TL 6 : to the end of the 60's -> information theory, computer based
> encryption decryption.

TL5. Stuff declassified in the last 10 years show both the US and
britian building crude computers to decrypt German messages during
WWII. 

TL6 would be information theory, spread spectrum transmissions, and
bitwise ciphering.

> TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
> plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).

Early *computer* steganography. Steganography has been around since
someone shaved a messenger's head, tattooed the message on his scalp
and sent him off on a long trip. By the time he got anywhere dangerous,
his hair had grown out and the message was hidden unless you looked
*really* carefully. Then at the destination, his head would be shaved
again and the message read. If it was *really* secret, he'd be killed.
And of course, he was carrying a normal but innocent messagge as well. 

> TL 8 : electronic watermarking, PGP
> TL 9 : entangled qubits? Hiding information in 'noise'? (chaotic
> generators or attractors as messages or keys?).

> The crypto and computer rating concepts from 'Central Supply Catalog'
> (in GURPS from quite early on - sigh) might be a starting point for
> useful T5 rules.....

Well, I've given what was actually *occuring* in real history at
various times. And keep in mind the fact that the most *recent* info
available to the public on the techniques used for decryption by the
government is from the *50s*. 

We have *partial* info on encryption techniques since then.

And with the principles from the late 40s/early 50s, it's possible to
write a program even on a *first* generation "personal computer" (the
author of the book I have used a Commodore Pet!) that can crack *any*
transposition or substitution cipher that doesn't have a keylength that
is the length of the message (ie anything but one-time pads). And even
message with *longer* key lengths can be cracked if the same key is
used more than once. 

And the worst part is that it takes longer to type in the cipher text
than for the computer to spit out the key length, and then for the next
program to spit out the clear text.

There's *no* info avialable (to my knowledge) about computer assisted
cracking of codes, or of modern bit-oriented ciphers. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:17:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>> That'd be a "global causality violation". And tends to have bad
>> consequences.
>
> Oh, do people  know  what  would  happen?  What  are  these  "bad
> consequences" (other than giving physicists a headache)?

Oh, things like energy flows fit to choke a wormhole...

Basicly, whenever they come up with a situation that includes the
*possibility* of global violations, closer analysis shows that
interactions "through" whatever sort of "gateway" you are using result
in energy flows or forces that either prevent the violation or prevent
the trip!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:24:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Looking ideas

In mail you write:

>        Do to members of my playing group moving away, I down to myself and
> one PC. He wants to play an X-boat pilot. I'm game to run the show but I was
> hoping to mine the list for any ideas. e-mail me with any suggestions.

Well, one thing that's *bound* to happen occasionally will be someone
asking him to "personally handle" a message or small item of cargo (ie
smuggle it through customs). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:42:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

In mail you write:

> OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
> stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
> Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.
>
> What I'd like is a nasty compound that would evaporate in the day side
> heat, and percipitate out as the temperture dropped during the long, cold
> night.  Something would be fairly bad as part of the atmosphere, but *real*
> ugly when it rains out.
>
> Yes, I'm planning on stranding a bunch of player characters in the back
> country as night comes on...

You haven't given us the *good* stuff. Namely what the average daytime
and nighttime temps are. 

1464 hours is about 61 *days*. In 30 days, the temp can drop a *long*
ways. It can also *rise* a long ways. I figure the hottest part of the
day ought to be *well* above 100 C. Maybe even above 200. Which means th
given that average, nighttime temps would be as low as -134. 

given the 65.7 average, let's explore some differences:

diff	max	min
- ----	-----	------
 25	 90.7	  40.7
 50	115.7	  15.7	water boils away before noon, rains like mad at
			night
 75	140.7	  -9.3	**snow**
100	165.7	 -34.3	
125	190.7	 -59.3	
150	215.7	 -84.3  CO2 snow
175	240.7	-109.3	Xenon rain
200	265.7	-134.3	Xenon snow
225	290.7	-159.3	Krypton rain, then snow
250	315.7	-184.3	*Oxygen* rain!
275	340.7	-209.3  Argon rain, then snow, nitrogen rain.
300	365.7	-234.3	Oxygen *snow*, nitrogen snow
325	390.7	-259.3	*Hydrogen* rain then snow...
350	415.7	   0K   it's *all* frozen, baby!

I don't have the melting or freezing points for methane and ammonia
handy. I only happened to remember the one for CO2. They aren't likely
to be present unless the atmosphere is "tainted". Ditto for a level of
xenon high enough for rain/snow.

The 150 degree swing isn't at all unlikely. First it rains like mad,
changing to snow as the temp drops. Then as the water runs out, the
temp drops *fast* (water is a greenhouse gas). And by condensing, it
releases heat. 

The skies will likely be clear by now.

Many hours later (at around -70 C?) CO2 will start to condense out as
fine crystals of dry ice, more like frost than snow, I would guess.
exhaled breath will *really* "steam" and fall as frost. And the temp
drop will accelerate again. 

This, in and of itself will be *very* bad for the characters. 

The argon, krypton, and xenon effects would require *much* higher than
normal levels of those gases. And high levels of xenon act like an
anaesthetic. So that's probably out. So is the hydrogen, but I put it
in as a reference.

The fun one is if you go for a 250 or more degree swing. Warnming the
players that *oxygen* condenses out of the atmosphere before dawn ought
to really thrill them no end. :-)

Vegetation will be *highly* flammable, as it'll have to be using mostly
weird alcohols and esters as sap to prevent freezing. Or else have
something in the sap that allow freezing without ice crystals forming
(so as to avoid damage). Animals will either have *deep* burrows, or
have really *weird* blood (again, so that they can freeze without
damage) 

Another thing to note is that the wider the temp swing, the farther
down you need to dig (or to go in a cave) to avoid it. Heck, in the
more extreme swing cases, there could be caves full of liquid gases
(much like ice caves here on earth). 

I wouldn't want to walk into a cave with a lake of LOX carrying any
kind of flame based light source! <eg>

And dayside will be no picnic either. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:32:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
>>Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>>TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>>synchronised rolling ciphers).
>
> You can do that at TL 0

TL 0 on *his* scale excludes writing.

>>TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
>>plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
>
> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual encryption
> schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about public key
> encryption.

Nope. The math involved *requires* computers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:45:44 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Repressive government

"Dave Hollenbaugh" <hollenbaugh@hotmail.com> writes:
>Thanks for your responses. It's getting hard for me to keep coming up 
>with explanations for all of these worlds. It's hard to keep falling 
>back on "the old Government was overthrown and a religious 
>dictatorship/totalitarian state put up in it's place.

This depends on how you define "oppressive", and who is oppressed.

Golden Age Athens, for example, was great if you were a free Athenian
male, less so if you were anyone else - which means that less than 10% of
the population had anything close to the freedom we expect in Western
society today. Yet they managed a creative outpouring that we still admire.

The middle ages, contrary to popular beliefs, had a lot of technological
change and innovation. (Just read any of the farming manuals, for example,
or look at the development of power technology.)

On a fictional note, look at Stirling's Draka. Oppressive if you aren't a
Draka (and even if you are there are questions you don't ask), but as it's
the Draka doing the innovation...

Look at American (and Canada) during the 1950s. Freedom of association
curtailed, certain belief structures persecuted, limited rights for
minorities and females, yet a lot of technological innovation
none-the-less.  As long as you were a white male following the rules, you
didn't notice the restrictions very much.

I suspect that once you get a certain critical mass of innovators, you get
technological advancement. This can be a large propertion of a small
population, or a small proportion of a large population. Doesn't matter
which.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:46:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: timetravel

On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:46 AM 2/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
> 
> >How did Grandfather know, in -75,000 to put humaniti, aslan, kkree, and
> >hivers on the coynes?  Timetravel of course!  How do we know the minor human
> >races were from Earth after all?  Yaskodray may have just kidnapped them
> >from the Third Imperium, or the Rule, or 1999...
> 
> I believe Marc has said that timetravel was beyond even the Ancients, since
> if Granddaddy could travel through time, whyt didn't he go back and warn
> himself not to have children?  Or that the Vargr were a bad idea?

I read that article and thought about it finding a way around it. In my
campaign there IS a time machine, although still no one knows of it. (as
my pcs don't read this I can tell you). But there are some restrictions to
use it, as it is the type designed as a tipler-machine: 

1. You need a spaceship for time-crossing, as it is the size of a planet
so it cannot be moved by the players.

2. Travel is only possible within the time of the existence of the running
machine - as it had been built after the final war, there is no possibilty
for grandfather to return and redo his mistakes.

I liked the idea to get my players into the two alternate universes at one
and the same campaign, so I made this kind of an artifact. The original
idea came from Frank Tipler, after whom it is named. It's a giant cylinder
made of superdense material, rotating by half light velocity. This makes
an artificial black hole, time travel being done by crossing between the
event horizons either with or against the rotaion.

If this cylinder is stopped, there is no possibility to travel into the
past over this point in time.

Now consider a virus-infected ship or robot sent from the new era into the
time before the fifth frontier war to kill Norris, preventing him getting
Archduke and establishing the Regency - the last bastion against Virus and
also a puffer between virus space and the Zhodani Imperium ...

btw, has anybody heard something from the set of T3?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:55:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, steve daniels wrote:

> 
> 
> "Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> > It *would* be nice just to see one, though. 'sigh'
> 
> Black psuedo leather cover, red type.  Excellent binding, and a very useful
> red ribbon book mark.  Very nice.
> 
> I have #107 of 200, purchased from and autographed by, Mr.Miller.
> 
> _Not_ for sale!
>

Dito, although I don't know my number by now.

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #102
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Traveller-digest      Monday, February 8 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 103



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: timetravel
Re: new thread: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: Ship Operator's Manual
RE: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Lanthanum 
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: Lanthanum 
Re: Lanthanum
Re: Planet-building advice needed.
Re: Vegans
Spanish edition Traveller [was: TAS Alien Encyclopedia]
re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking Device
Foreven Sector Information
Re: Vegans
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:59:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: timetravel

On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> >We also know, from the Zhodani AM that psionics can develop
> >new psionic powers as adults.

[snip]
 
> Limited precog is one of the more interesting possibilities - he owns the
> Ottem from the Abyss, and this may allow time travel, stimulate precog,
> etc. Time for "Irving" to switch on "Ride of the Valkyries"...

Also remember the 'Zhodani Map Box', which also shows precognition talents
in very accurate manner. Also a hook for a time machine?

That's the most travellerish for me: Enigmas supporting new enigmas
leading to other enigmas ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:06:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: new thread: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Herr Maskus:
> 
> Please tell Arne if you ever see him, that he published a great product...
> 
> Seth
> 
And what about publishing another one, perhaps containing the JTAS or
Traveller Digest Volumes?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:17:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> At 05:05 PM 2/5/1999 +0100, you wrote:
> >Hello folks,
> >
> >I only got the Vilani&Vargr- and the Solomani&Aslan-Guide.
> >
> >Is there any chance to get the rest and where ?
> If you have V&V and S&A then you have all of them.  These were the Digest
> Group Alien Modules, and that is all they produced before getting out of
> (or being forced out of) the Traveller line.  The only 'Alien' book that
> was also published was Flaming Eye, which was an adventure for V&V, of
> which I happen to own a spare copy.
> 
The Megatraveller Journal #4 spends a lot on the K'kree, so it is worth
being also an 'Alien' book. I think it was first planned as own book
'Lords of Thunder', to be published by seeker, but then it had been made
the very last supplement put out by DGP. I still hate them for cancelling
the other Alien modules! But then I love them for publishing the first two
...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:50:33 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual

Mike wrote:
> Does anyone know of a copy for sale? I checked some of the used
> game sites on the Web to no avail....


Last I checked "Blake's Heaven" had a copy.  Contact  details  on
http://freespace.virgin.net/alan.blake



Regards PLST

"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:20:45 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Personal identification, etc.

For an exhaustive (and exhausting) discussion, get a copy of _The Code
Breakers_. It details the ENTIRE history of cryptography and
cryptanalysis. 

JeffG

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Hans Rancke-Madsen [SMTP:rancke@diku.dk]
> Sent:	07 February 1999 21:37
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Personal identification, etc.
> 
> Robert O'Connor writes:
> >Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
> >TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
> >synchronised rolling ciphers).
> 
> You can do that at TL 0
> 
> > TL 4 : 1850's - 1920's. Morse code. Number and group theory.
> 
> You can have that at TL 0.
> 
> >TL 5 : 1920's - end WW2 -> Enigma and similar multi codewheel
> >scrambling. Microdots.
> 
> For microdots you need pretty advanced photography, but codewheels and
> similar engines can be handbuilt by craftsmen. And you can propably
> get
> some kind of micro-writing -- well, mini-writing, anyway -- as soon as
> you can make a microscope.
> 
> >TL 6 : to the end of the 60's -> information theory, computer based
> >encryption decryption.
> 
> You can't have computer based decryption without a computer, of
> course,
> but as for information theory: _Any_ sort of pure knowledge is TL 0.
> 
> >TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
> >plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
> 
> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual
> encryption
> schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about public
> key
> encryption.
> 
> 
>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>          events based on the individual situation."
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:34:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

At 09:35 PM 2/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 03:26 PM 2/4/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:52:08 +0000, Charles Prevatte 
>> <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>>>>Is there a real lanthanum?  Or is it one of the proposed 'island of
>>>>stability' elements beyond californium?
>>>
>>>Lanthanum is real (fairly rare but real).
>>>
>>>>What are it's physical properties?  Atomic weight?  Atomic number?  Mass 
>> per
>>>>cubic cm?  Ductility?  Tensile strength?  Conductivity?  Is it a metal?
>>>
>>>It is a silver-while metal is reactive with water (slowly with cold water,
>>>quickly with hot water) to liberate hydrogen.  It is soft enough to be cut
>>>by a knife and it tarnishes in air and burns easily.  It has an atom number
>>>of 57 and an atomic weight of 138.905.  It has a melting point of 920 C and
>>
>> Low melting point.  Perhaps it has to be cooled in the drive to keep it from
>> melting.  Is it a metal?  Is it conductive?
>>
>>>a specific gravity of 6.166.  It was discovered by extracting from impure
>>
>> Fairly light too.
>
>Not *that* light. Aluminum is 2.7, titanium is 4, copper, steel, etc
>are up around 8.

True, that is why I said 'fairly'.  If it were 2.0 I'd have said VERY light.

>
>> By the way can you tell me were the "island of stability" is in atomic
>> numbers and if there are any proposed names for those elements if anyboby
>> ever finds some.  Anybody have any guesses as to what isotopes they would
>> have or there real world properties.  Would any of them be metals?  I'd love
>> to use them as adventure seeds.  "You find a bar of unknown material."
>
>*All* of them will be metals, with the possible exception of any new
>"noble gases". The non-metals are restricted to a corner of the
>periodic chart. And it's full.
>

Had not though of that, but that is the patern so far.  What if there were
one that was an effective substitute for carbon/silicon in componds. IE 4
outer electrons with similar bonding habits?  Who can say what a new valence
level might act like?

>The island of stability is supposed to be around atomic number 118. 
>
>The discoverer gets to name new elements. Until then, they (nowadays)
>get assigned a name based on the number. For example 118 would be
>ununoctium. 
>
>Last I heard these elements will be only *somewhat* stable. As longer
>half-lives. You can figure some of the properties by extrapolating
>downwards in the appropriate column of the periodic table. But be aware
>that they occur about where it gets wider again. 
>
>Here's a periodic table laid out vertically, rather than horizontally:
>
>001 003 011 019 037 055 087 119 169 219
>    004 012 020 038 056 088 120 170 220
>            021 039 057 089 121 171 221
>                    058 090 122 172 222
>                            123 173 223
>                            124 174
>                            125 175
>                            126 176
>                            127 177
>                            128 178
>                            129 179
>                            130 180
>                            131 181
>                            132 182
>                            133 183
>                            134 184
>                            135 185
>                            136 186
>                            137 187
>                            138 188
>                            139 189
>                            140 190
>                    059 091 141 191
>                    060 092 142 192
>                    061 093 143 193
>                    062 094 144 194
>                    063 095 145 195
>                    064 096 146 196
>                    065 097 147 197
>                    066 098 148 198
>                    067 099 149 199
>                    068 100 150 200
>                    069 101 151 201
>                    070 102 152 202
>                    071 103 153 203
>            022 040 072 104 154 204
>            023 041 073 105 155 205
>            024 042 074 106 156 206
>            025 043 075 107 157 207
>            026 044 076 108 158 208
>            027 045 077 109 159 209
>            028 046 078 110 160 210
>            029 047 079 111 161 211
>            030 048 080 112 162 212
>    005 013 031 049 081 113 163 213
>    006 014 032 050 082 114 164 214
>    007 015 033 051 083 115 165 215
>    008 016 034 052 084 116 166 216
>    009 017 035 053 085 117 167 217
>002 010 018 036 054 086 118 168 218                   
>
>The 123-140 range will have "new" properties, not entirely predictable.
>And at 223 we get to add 22 new rows <sigh>
>
>Don't get carried away with "new" properties though. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

I'm not looking for any really wierd 'new' properties just a bonding
charateristic similar to carbon and/or silicon.  What 'thoretical element'
would most likely match carbon in it's chemical bonding habits? What would
it's 'theoretical' half life be.  I was thinking 'for this adventure' that
this new element would bond like carbon and/or silicon but the new compounds
would behave very diferent from either.  CO2 is a gas SiO2 is sand (I think
Si is silicon) but the new XO2 might be a liquid for example.  The 'new
carbon' would be VERY good at replacing carbon and silicon perhaps
agressively so with potentially strange effects.  What would happen if the
silicon substrate in the party's computer were repalced with this new
element that just happen to be a conductive liquid in that compounding...HEE
HEE!  It would not take much of this to cause a lot of trouble.  What would
be some posible isotopes of this element x?  What would be their half lives
and radiographic properties?  HEE!  HEE!

Evil adventure ideas are brewing in my mind.

Is it posible for an isotope of an element to be more stable than is basic type?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:34:52 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum 

At 09:14 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
>> lighter flints.
>
>You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
>
>Cool!!
>
>Keven
>

Now that I think about it, that may explain why I keep 'misplacing'
lighters.  I'm no misplacing them they are misjumping due the earths gravity
well.  I wonder if socks and driers have a lanthanum catilizing effect?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:34:54 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 12:03 PM 2/6/99 EST, you wrote:
><<Remember the threads on how dangerous continuous exposure to low
> level radiation and micrometeorites can be? Someone mentioned using
> a low-level EM field to bend these things away, blunt their effects.
> What if a Lanthanum Grid was capable of generating such a field?
> Say, a low level of energy in the Grid (some kind of standing wave)
> produces an EM field of this nature, while a full power level of energy
> in the field (dumped in from the jump drive) tosses the ship into
> jump space. >>
>...
>...
>
>I'm barely an initiate on this list, so don't jump on me if I'm wrong. If the
>Lanthanum Grid is able to produce an EM field of sufficient magnitude to repel
>micrometeorites (similar to a navigational deflector, Trek fans) then it can
>surely be made adaptable enough to vary the wave. One idea is to use it for
>ECM. Broad-spectrum radar jamming is an obvious application. It may also be

Sure, a bollix effect, but then you are screaming in the EM spectrum and
begging for a flight of HARMs (Homing Anti Radiation Missle) with nuc. tips.
This also does nothing to stop Lidar and pasive optical tageting.  This
system also jams your own radar.  The bollix was the first 'radar jammer'.
It worked the way a person screaming into a bull horn maked conversation
imposible.  Very crude and everybody near by knows who is doing it.

>possible (if sufficient energy and strong enough grids were available) to
>negatively charge the entire hull of a ship. Not being an expert on
>electromagnetics I can only speculate, but wouldn't this type of thing 'suck
>in' radar waves? Opposites attract, so the hull could be made to absorb the

Nope, radar is a signal (ac) not a state (dc).  The oposite of a signal is
it's exact 180 degrees phase shifted self and that cancels it out.

>waves by cancelling them out. Pure speculation on my part, of course. Another
>idea, if computer technology was fast enough, is to use the grid to generate
>false sensor waves in conjunction with the aforementioned absorbtion
>technique. Once the waves were absorbed, the computers would match the

This is posible with radar.  The reflected part of the radar signal is
canceled with an exact duplicate signal of opposing phase (called black
noise).  In space a no return is the expected responce to empty space but in
a more crowded area false signals would have to be sent to cover the 'dead
air'.  The counters to this is 'frequency agile radar' , a constantly and
randomly changing componet in the radar carrier, random pulsed radar, side
looking radar, sinthetic apature radar, and/or 'registation targets' to test
for this type of ECM.  There is a constant battle between ECM and ECCM at
every stage of technical evolution.

 All this goes out the window with Lidar though.  Spoofing a properly
designed Lidar system sould be all but imposible (barring invisibility).
Your only real chance is to convince the operater that you are something
other than what you are and harmless or normal.  You would have to
physically change your ships outline if he had you in his threat library.
The ship hidden inside an asteroid trick could work for example.  Appearing
to be a different type of ship against a trained ELINT operater would be an
uncertain/imposible task with some serious extra negative modifiers for
someone with no ELINT training.  Though it should be only
uncertain/formiable to appear to be a deferent but not specific ship of the
same type IF the person doing the disguise was a trained ELINT operater.

"Heh Joe, the March Harrier is back 3 weeks early"

"How do know it's the Harrier, Fred?"

"That same leeky left ventral thruster baffle, Joe"

"Maybe, but when did the Harrier start debarking Zoodoni assualt warbots in
mass!!!"

The above senereo would take an uncurtain/imposible task role of an ELINT
operater/engineer or a uncurtain/difficult task for a military ELINT team. 
(IMHO)

>frequency and phase to the output of the L-grid, so the L-grid could send back
>what it liked about the ship. At long range, you could turn a battleship into
>a helpless cargo vessel, and vice versa. The possibilities for this technology
>are endless, so please comment. If I'm wrong, however, tell me so as to avoid
>further embarrassement :-).
>

That is the concept behind ELINT and SigINT systems but what you are talking
about is a complex and exacting science.  Not something that your average
jack leg could do with standard equipment.  The tricks you purpose are in
the realm of spy ships and stealth systems of military quality.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:35:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

At 11:53 AM 2/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Mike Smith wrote:
>
>(OTOH, throwing more processor, memory and HD space at a problem CAN slow it
>down...witness <insert favorite extant OS to bash here>)
>
>Concrete specifications on computers in Trav have always been vague. About the
>only example I can grab off hand is from T4, which states that the very best
>parallel processing computers at TL-7 have a comp rating of 1. This would be
>something like a Conenctions Machine, or a high end Cray. The Intel Nuclear
>Monster at Sandia is probably a 1.5 or close to a 2. The next line in the book
>talks about TL-12 personal computers _starting_ at 2. 
>
>Ye Ghods, what bloatware Windows Milieu 0 must be...;-)
>

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Good one!!!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:58:57 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum 

> At 09:14 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
> >> lighter flints.
> >
> >You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
> >
> >Cool!!
> >
> >Keven
> >
> 
> Now that I think about it, that may explain why I keep 'misplacing'
> lighters.  I'm no misplacing them they are misjumping due the earths gravity
> well.  I wonder if socks and driers have a lanthanum catilizing effect?

Dunno bout that.  Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I 
wonder howcome it never Jumped away.

Must not of had enough fuel in it...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:07:21 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

>>>>
> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
> lighter flints.

You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??

Cool!!

Keven
>>>>
ROFL!  I don't smoke, but now I have a real reason to get a lighter! 
Imagine that, we already have Real World(tm) precursors to Jump drives! 
All we need now is a Model 3 computer.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:59:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
> stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
> Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.
> 
> What I'd like is a nasty compound that would evaporate in the day side
> heat, and percipitate out as the temperture dropped during the long, cold
> night.  Something would be fairly bad as part of the atmosphere, but *real*
> ugly when it rains out.

Um...it's 10 atmospheres.  It doesn't really matter all that much, people are
going to be wearing fully contained suits anyway, and the atmosphere is
probably reasonably toxic all the time.

Personally, I'd go with a nice simple one.  Water.  Given the _amount_ of
liquid the planet has (30%) and the temperature range, having 50-meter acid
snowdrifts form at night and then all melt and run into the lowlands during the
day would be plenty terrifying (and plenty lethal).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:08:01 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Vegans

Clay Taylor wrote:

>Was there ever anything published on the Vegans other than the library 
>data?

Harold Hale did some nice historical write ups of them in The Traveller
Chronicle. Though they were intended for use with his TNE setting, they're
usable for other settings as well.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:18:53 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Spanish edition Traveller [was: TAS Alien Encyclopedia]

Sethkimmel@aol.com quoted me saying:

<< For me the only Traveller item that is even 'nicer' is the Spanish
edition.
 (Has the additional bonus of including artwork not seen anywhere else.)
  >>


and then asked:
>Is it hard to find? I would like to use it to help myself learn Spanish...


I didn't have too much trouble.  Got it, IIRC from Quincey Koziol.

tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:25:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking Device

Charles Prevatte wrote (about making a scout look like a battleship):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is the concept behind ELINT and SigINT systems but what you are talking
about is a complex and exacting science.  Not something that your average
jack leg could do with standard equipment.  The tricks you purpose are in
the realm of spy ships and stealth systems of military quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the crux of the "what if" here is, "What if some trick of the technology
allowed regular people to do this?" The TU in question would be rather
different.

Cryptography used to be the realm of governments...now individuals
can do it so well that the government can't effectively counter their
doing so.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:45:42 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Foreven Sector Information

Does anyone have the information (minimal though it is) for the Foreven
sector from Imperiallines #11 available online or by photocopy (if the
latter isn't deeply illegal)?

Be pleased to get it.


Thanks,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:55:42 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vegans

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>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: Vegans
>In-Reply-To: <199902081357.IAA29387@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>
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>
>Clay Taylor wrote:
>
>>Was there ever anything published on the Vegans other than the library 
>>data?
>
>Harold Hale did some nice historical write ups of them in The Traveller
>Chronicle. Though they were intended for use with his TNE setting, 
they're
>usable for other settings as well.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
>cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml
Has anyone done GURPS character stats for them yet? 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:24:13 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

At 16:34 08/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>
>Is it posible for an isotope of an element to be more stable than is basic
type?

Not really - the most stable tends to be the basic state, since after any
long period
of time it is all you have left.

If the half life is in the 100 million years+ category, then you might
worry about
how much of each are created but I don't think that applies to elements
beyond 100.

It might be possible to a have a stable element but no way to make it because
all the nearby elements decay too rapidly.

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:55:51 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 16:34 08/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

<snip, snip>

>Nope, radar is a signal (ac) not a state (dc).  The oposite of a signal is
>it's exact 180 degrees phase shifted self and that cancels it out.
>
>>waves by cancelling them out. Pure speculation on my part, of course.
Another
>>idea, if computer technology was fast enough, is to use the grid to generate
>>false sensor waves in conjunction with the aforementioned absorbtion
>>technique. Once the waves were absorbed, the computers would match the
>
>This is posible with radar.  The reflected part of the radar signal is
>canceled with an exact duplicate signal of opposing phase (called black
>noise). 

The last time this came up (about IR masking) I thought the agreement
was that anti-noise only works for sound.

The problem is that you can't just broadcast an anti-signal, the signal
has to be exactly out of phase or you can measure the difference.
With sound you can use the fact that by the time your electronics
have worked out the correct anti signal, it has only moved a few cm,
so there is plenty of time to get your signal to the loudspeaker.

With any EMR (radio, light, etc) the signal is travelling at the speed of
light, so even if you can calculate the anti-signal in zero time, it
will still have gone before your emitter can emit it.

As if this wasn't bad enough, you have to create the anti-signal photon
by photon and according to a certain famous principle, its not just
that you can't measure the values accurately enough without changing
them, its that the values aren't actually defined until you do
measure them, at which point you know the old values and the changed
values are again uncertain !

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #103
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 8 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 104



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Vegans
re: Pixel resolution
Re: Combat Support Element
Re: Combat Support Element
[none]
Re: Combat Support Element 
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking
re: Combat Support Element
Re: Re: Vegans
Re: Combat Support Element
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Tech levels (Revisted)
Re: Lanthanum  >
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Combat Support Element
Re: Lanthanum > 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:09:28 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Vegans

Is the Traveller Chronicle available anywhere? does anyone have it
online?

JeffG

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"  (Dr. Strangeglove,
1963)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Chris Griffen [SMTP:cgriffen@cisco.com]
> Sent:	08 February 1999 11:08
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Vegans
> 
> Clay Taylor wrote:
> 
> >Was there ever anything published on the Vegans other than the
> library 
> >data?
> 
> Harold Hale did some nice historical write ups of them in The
> Traveller
> Chronicle. Though they were intended for use with his TNE setting,
> they're
> usable for other settings as well.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
> cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
> http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:01:55 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Pixel resolution

>Any physicists out there know what the best pixel resolution, say in the
>infrared spectrum, you can expect from a LEO satellite on a planet with an
>atmosphere similar to our own?

Resolution is limited by the size of the satellite; 200-km orbit 5-micron
thermal IR the resolution in meters is about (1 meter)/(satellite mirror
diameter in meters). 

(For sensors from FFS2, you can take the resultions given there and divide
by about a hundred for LEO/thermal IR.)

>What about over-sampling, or increasing resolution by taking multiple
>overlapping shots?
The multiple-picture trick helps if your pixels are too big, but doesn't
overcome the fundamental resolution limit given above. Oversampling
and image processing similarly doesn't help you much unless you have
priori knowledge of what the object you're looking at is (ie one could tell
where a lightbulb is to much better than the 1m given above, but couldn't
tell a 5-cm round lightbulb from a 20-cm square one.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:44:35 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca wrote:

>> << You risk arriving with the enemy between your battle line and combat
>>  support element.
>>   >>
>> 
>> true; but the outer system is large, and the supports can jump out if they
>> can't evade...
>> 
>
>       ...  And one on side the defender has a few troop ships, a supply
>ship, a couple of tankers and a hospital ship;  the other side is a
>million-plus tons of spinal mount weilding ships.  Does he *care* about
>the CSE group?  Not right now =)

Hey, If I close the Combat Support element I can kill them while opening
with the enemy battleline. Divide and conquer.

Anyway, the enemy battleline can't take whatever I'm defending away from
me. The troopships can.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:41:36 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

><< You risk arriving with the enemy between your battle line and combat
> support element.
>  >>
>
>true; but the outer system is large, and the supports can jump out if they
>can't evade...

They all have sufficient fuel for two successive jumps? If so, they are
giving a lot of tonnage away to fuel that they could otherwise be using
for their real jobs.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:20:52 -0500
From: Matthew Moore <Matthew@esinter.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

__________________________
Matthew Moore
matthew@esinter.com
Edwin Schlossberg Incorporated
212.989.3993 ext. 247

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:23:42 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element 

> >> << You risk arriving with the enemy between your battle line and combat
> >>  support element.
> >>   >>
> >> 
> >> true; but the outer system is large, and the supports can jump out if they
> >> can't evade...
> >> 
> >
> >       ...  And one on side the defender has a few troop ships, a supply
> >ship, a couple of tankers and a hospital ship;  the other side is a
> >million-plus tons of spinal mount weilding ships.  Does he *care* about
> >the CSE group?  Not right now =)
> 
> Hey, If I close the Combat Support element I can kill them while opening
> with the enemy battleline. Divide and conquer.
> 
> Anyway, the enemy battleline can't take whatever I'm defending away from
> me. The troopships can.

But while you're whacking out easy soft targets, the Intruder's main battle 
line can be softening up your orbital defenses and coming up your kilt.  He 
may not be able to land and hold more than a small island for a beachhead, but 
he'll be able to keep *YOU* away from home pretty easily.  And if he does some 
creative resupplying, he can always fuel up a courier ship and go bring in 
reinforcements.  You, on the other tentacle, having no jump-capable ships, are 
*stuck*.  How long can you breathe vacuum?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:24:40 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

>>>>
With any EMR (radio, light, etc) the signal is travelling at the speed
of
light, so even if you can calculate the anti-signal in zero time, it
will still have gone before your emitter can emit it.

Phil Kitching
>>>>
You could still do the anti-signal, it would just seem to the sensor
operator as if they had a 'blip' that went away after a fraction of a
second.  If they weren't being observant, they might not notice.  There
have been several episodes of this kind of thing on Star Trek episodes
(not that they are hard science, but the idea has been explored to some
extent).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:26:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Conley <estar@wrench.toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

> I'd guess that a '2' would run a mean game of carmageddon!!!  What does the
> computer techo on a ship *do* though?  Programming is surely a thing of the
> ancient past (they did *what*- what were they, cavemen?) that scene from
> startrek pops to mind with Scotty talking to a mouse :)


Bridges were being built throughout human history. A bridge enginneer
today has a large body of knowledge, rules, and parts he can draw apon to
design the bridge he needs. A bridge of 1000BC was much more of an art to
construct.

The same with software enginneering. With the 3000+ years of history
between us and them the art of software enginneering would have become
much more of a science. You will still need a software enginneer like you
need a bridge enginneer. The tools that the Imperial Software enginneer
has will be several order of magnitude better than what we have now. They
will have at the least proven software components with known reliable
means of connecting them together. 

A software enginneer is needed for his knowledge of taking the Imperial
catalog of software and component and putting them together to solve the
customer's problem.

In addition the problems themselves will be much better understood. Issues
of data retrieval, accounting, word processsing, nagivation, piloting will
have a variety of best of breed solutions implemented. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:43:35 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

Mike Smith wrote:

> I'd guess that a '2' would run a mean game of carmageddon!!!  What does the
> computer techo on a ship *do* though?  Programming is surely a thing of the
> ancient past (they did *what*- what were they, cavemen?) that scene from
> startrek pops to mind with Scotty talking to a mouse :)

Well, you can't ever get away from programming computers, on some
level...no matter what the TL. Of course programming methods and systems
will become far more advanced; to what point, I don't know.

But I suspect:

Serious OO throughout the systems...You want your High Zhodani Spell
checker to worknwith your system, buy one. Plug it in, and everything
that deals with spelling will use it.

You want to program? Buy a programming kit. It would probably be a
collection of modules you plug together in one fashion or another.
Notice, I'm talking in virtual terms, not physical, here.

Specialized programming, for use with, for instance, the 'programming'
skills, would involve module building modules, at an increasingly lower
level as the programmers skill goes up.

Humans have been visually oriented critters since long before we left
the trees; I suspect that programming will involve putting things
together like a jigsaw puzzle rather than writing code. This is an old
concept even now: the first relational database for the Mac, Helix, did
this in something like 1985 or 86; there's Hypercard, of course, though
that still requires pounding out code by hand; and sophisticated stuff
like National Lab's LabView,a serious lab and instrumentation control
and analysis package, which, like Helix is 'programmed' by sticking
things together like legos, on screen.

Real, low-level stuff, actually twiddling the bits, would have been
taken over by optimizing compilers long, long ago. Programming in
'languages' would be viewed as beyond quaint; as if someone came up to
me today and announced that he'd gotten his Jaquard loom to calculate
logarithms...or that he'd keyed in a program flipping switches on the
face of his Altair.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:28:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As if this wasn't bad enough, you have to create the anti-signal photon
by photon and according to a certain famous principle, its not just
that you can't measure the values accurately enough without changing
them, its that the values aren't actually defined until you do
measure them, at which point you know the old values and the changed
values are again uncertain !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Note that you don't have to be exact - just more accurate than the
sensitivity of the sensor you're attempting to spoof. A lot easier if
you have a major tech level advantage (such as the type-S Scout
spoofing a TL 5-6 radar system mentioned earlier).

That gets me to thinking...besides the fact thay they're both black boxes
(unexplained technology), could there be any technological link between
Black Globe Generators and Jump Drives?

The idea of a partially-charged lanthanum grid acting as a poor man's
black globe (only works to block long range sensors) made me think
of this.

Walt Smith

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:02:18 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Combat Support Element

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>true; but the outer system is large, and the supports can jump out if they
>can't evade...

They all have sufficient fuel for two successive jumps? If so, they are
giving a lot of tonnage away to fuel that they could otherwise be using
for their real jobs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let's see now...Combat Support will consist of transports, munitions
ships, TANKERS....

If the tankers brought enough fuel for the battlewagons, topping off the
tanks of the CSE will be no problem - and will take trivial amounts of
time compared to interception times.

This has been said so many times in this thread already - space is big.
The defender can either mass his forces to protect what he wants to
keep, or he can spread his forces to the point of literal uselessness in
an attempt to intercept you where he wants to, instead of where you want
him to. 

Space combat in Traveller, with few exceptions(1), is by mutual consent. 
There are too many things either side can do to avoid combat to make it
otherwise.

Walt Smith

(1): The exceptions involve fixed positions like planets - you know he has
to defend it, he knows you'll have to come and get it. Another exception
would involve deception, difficult to do when both sides are already
suspicious. 

Walt 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:07:24 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vegans

>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:08:01 -0800
>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: Vegans
>Harold Hale did some nice historical write ups of them [Vegans] in >The 
Traveller Chronicle. Though they were intended for use with his >TNE 
setting,they're usable for other settings as well.

Which one were they detailed in and where can I get it?

IMTU: tc+  tm++  !tn  t4+  tg+  tt  ru++(--)  ge+  3I+  c+(-)  jt-  
au+(-)  st++  ls  pi+  ta  he+  kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ zh++  
vi++ da++  sy++

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:10:04 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

In a message dated 2/8/99 10:07:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< 
 They all have sufficient fuel for two successive jumps? If so, they are
 giving a lot of tonnage away to fuel that they could otherwise be using
 for their real jobs. >>

An extra 10% of hull dedicated to an emergency Jump 1 is worth it to me...
Besides; Imperial standards seem set on J4 as a fleet standard (and even J5
for auxilleries was mentioned somewhere...). I don't think it would be too
much of a hardship to plan an atack from J3, with a J1 rally point. If this
can't be done; the supports can do an insystem micro jump. I would leave
maximum jumps insystem for extraordinary circumstances as I wouldn't want to
EVER get caught with empty tanks or in the middle of refueling, no matter how
unlikely that would be...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:13:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Real, low-level stuff, actually twiddling the bits, would have been
taken over by optimizing compilers long, long ago. Programming in
'languages' would be viewed as beyond quaint; as if someone came up to
me today and announced that he'd gotten his Jaquard loom to calculate
logarithms...or that he'd keyed in a program flipping switches on the
face of his Altair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
There will be problems that optimized compilers can't fix, and solutions
that the standard modules won't be quite right for. While situations where
the programmer has to hack right down to the machine's own level will
become steadily rarer, these situations will exist - and the dying breed
of techs who can do this kind of work will command steadily higher
prices.

A quirk of the rules - someone with Computer-3 is both an excellent
programmer *and* and excellent hardware repair person. What does it
say about the SOA computer technology when people see no reason
to specialize software skills over hardware skills?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:25:28 -0000
From: "Trevor Browne" <trevor@browne5.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Tech levels (Revisted)

Hello again,

Sorry to take so long to get back on this, real life intervened.  I hate it
when that happens.

Rather than try to reply to each of the many points made in sequence I will
try to illustrate my views of the general concepts raised.

I concede that there are convincing arguments for quite dramatic tech lags
and in the backwoods of many worlds I think that very primitive societies
may remain. However I still maintain that there is too great a diversity
within the more mature interstellar communities for these arguments alone to
make it credible, without considerable suspension of disbelief.  Not that I
necessarily feel that Well I like it isnt a good enough reason for the
variation to remain.  More on this another day.

Communication, Isolation, The Long Night and Sustainable tech.
I think that for the post long night, M0 campaign and the post viral shut
down, TNE the diverse TLs are fine.  The worlds have been left to their own
devices for long periods of time and would have been forced to turn inwards.
But I think in the very extent of the technological collapse during the long
night we have evidence of the pervasiveness of exterior influences.  Ask
yourselves just how sustainable is any nations technology in isolation.
The UK for example, my home, would be really stuffed if suddenly isolated
from world trade, yet it is one of the most advanced nations on the planet.
Also I dont imagine that the Technology is developed independently on
multiple worlds, obviously some duplication of effort will occur as does
today, but I believe that the 3I scientific communities will be as keen to
publish their findings as our modern ones.  I also imagine therefore that
the Imperiums technology is a collective thing with the richest and most
culturally important regions benefiting first.

Economics & Imports
If transportation costs are the main factor limiting imports why not build
factories on the world.  Ford an American car company has factories in the
UK, Portugal, Poland etc.   I think also resources are a main determining
factor in planetary wealth not just tech.  Look at Alaska or most of Canada,
100 years ago wildernesses, now with first world cities, outside investment
has built these not the native tribes.

This leads me to an aside.  Surely many systems would have to import raw
materials.  Vland for example, after 10,000 years of interstellar society
there cant be many minerals left in the system.  Also Terra with hardly any
colonies must have born the brunt of the Interstellar wars logistics, and
the Earth is running low on many materials now.  Also I imagine many A
population worlds would have a hard time feeding themselves, although high
tech farming is perhaps a more obvious solution.  Continuing this train of
thought, I ask is bulk shipping of manufactured goods to a system with
insufficient manufacturing capability really not economically viable if that
world has the capital to pay for them?.  Again the UK is a good example,
with little indigenous manufacturing capability the UKs wealth is largely
derived from trade and financial sources.

Time
IM(and others)O the Imperium is _very_ stable government with less than 20
major wars in over 1000 years its also _very_  peaceful.  This is a good
reason for the slow rate of technological advancement but not a good reason
for the diversity.  With such an untaxed society plenty of resources would
be available for other less urgent projects.  I just cant believe that
planets in the main cultural regions of the Imperium, on the main
communication routes and exposed to free trade and more importantly
advertising, from exterior influences for over a thousand years of relative
peace, would fail to be within a few TLs of their neighbours.  The major
urban areas which is after all what the TL applies to* - of Africa and
Asia, many of which have only been opened to regular contact with western
technology for relatively short periods of time are not really that far
behind, 3TLs at the most.

* TNE rules say:
The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication
of the products commonly available on a world in _urban areas or near the
starport_.  Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from
large population centres may be one or even two Tech Levels lower.

Culture & Xenophobia
This IMHO is arguably the most persuasive case for the diversity found.
Vilani culture was obviously very widespread pre ROM, however many of its
vital corner stones were suppressed by the Solomani, the caste system for
example. While I think that this could have been overturned on many worlds
during the long night I dont think that this reverse would have been
universal.  Also the 3I culture would seem to be at least Solomani
based aristocracy, measurements, language etc- albeit with heavy Vilani
influences.  However the myriad of different governments within the Imperium
would have widely different views on the subject and I am utterly
comfortable with the idea that some of them wish their world to be backward.
At least everyone except the leadership itself anyway ?, in a similar style
to the TEDs in the new era or some African dictatorships today.  However
would the 3I permit such governments to exist? Realistically quite probably
as long as they didnt cause too much trouble. This raises a new question
just how interfering are the 3I authorities.

Government aid.
I think the mere presence of 3I installations would have a dramatic effect
of the world.  Hong Kong is a good comparable RW example.  Also does the 3I
not have aid programs or any economic aid packages comparable to EU funding
for the less developed member states?  I think they would.

Finally, re the input from people responding to my question of what a TTL 8
world could contribute to a TTL 15 war effort.  I did say That could not be
produced cheaper or better elsewhere, terrible English I know but it was
the crux of my point.  Incidentally I like the idea of taking low tech
people for the armed forces.  I can see this could be a problem for the more
technical posts but for the grunts sounds feasible enough.  Also this could
lead to some very interesting regimental traditions.

Cheers for now, thanks for the replies.

Trev

In the future everything will work...
...sort of

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:25:06 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum  >

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>> At 09:14 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
>> >> lighter flints.
>> >You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
>> >Cool!!
>> >Keven
>> Now that I think about it, that may explain why I keep 'misplacing'
>> lighters.  I'm no misplacing them they are misjumping due the earths gravity
>> well.  I wonder if socks and driers have a lanthanum catilizing effect?
>Dunno bout that.  Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I
>wonder howcome it never Jumped away.
>
>Must not of had enough fuel in it...

Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter fuel.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:53:09 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

>It might be possible to a have a stable element but no way to make it because
>all the nearby elements decay too rapidly.
>
>Phil Kitching
>

Now there is an idea.  An element that can't be made except by some
rediculously rare natural process like in the heart of a neutron star
because all those above it normally decay not into it but other lower
elements and those below it have such short have lives that making it by
building it up from lower elements is impractical.  If it had some very
useful property that made it valuable then it would make a near perfect
adventure maguffin.  Even a tiny amount would be worth a fortune.

A great reason for thugs to be after an adventure group.  The thugs 'know'
that they have something very valuable but it is small and hidden in
something easily overlooked.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:53:12 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 05:55 PM 2/8/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 16:34 08/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
><snip, snip>
>
>>Nope, radar is a signal (ac) not a state (dc).  The oposite of a signal is
>>it's exact 180 degrees phase shifted self and that cancels it out.
>>
>>>waves by cancelling them out. Pure speculation on my part, of course.
>Another
>>>idea, if computer technology was fast enough, is to use the grid to generate
>>>false sensor waves in conjunction with the aforementioned absorbtion
>>>technique. Once the waves were absorbed, the computers would match the
>>
>>This is posible with radar.  The reflected part of the radar signal is
>>canceled with an exact duplicate signal of opposing phase (called black
>>noise). 
>
>The last time this came up (about IR masking) I thought the agreement
>was that anti-noise only works for sound.
>
>The problem is that you can't just broadcast an anti-signal, the signal
>has to be exactly out of phase or you can measure the difference.
>With sound you can use the fact that by the time your electronics
>have worked out the correct anti signal, it has only moved a few cm,
>so there is plenty of time to get your signal to the loudspeaker.
>
>With any EMR (radio, light, etc) the signal is travelling at the speed of
>light, so even if you can calculate the anti-signal in zero time, it
>will still have gone before your emitter can emit it.
>
>As if this wasn't bad enough, you have to create the anti-signal photon
>by photon and according to a certain famous principle, its not just
>that you can't measure the values accurately enough without changing
>them, its that the values aren't actually defined until you do
>measure them, at which point you know the old values and the changed
>values are again uncertain !
>
>Phil Kitching
>

Very true for light.  I said in my post that Lidar was all but unbeatable if
properly designed.  Radar on the other hand is a lot easier of fool.

There are analog methods of producing the canceling signal without any
appreaciable lag time (the lag time is figured into the needed amount of
phaze shift based on band width).  The canceling signal is produced from the
main signal by propagation delay phaze shifting it .5 wave lenghts.  It is
also composed of electron/hole pairs not photons.

Disclaimer:  I do not nor have I ever worked with ECM systems but I have
designed or helped design various specialty filters over the years that
acomplish this.

There are also physical shapes that reflect RF signals away from their point
of origin.  There are also Radar Absorbant Materials including paint.  There
are also materials that are invisable to radar.

RF is very different in practice from light.  For example copper conducts RF
but not light.  A sheet of bright orange plastic is very visable opticly but
invisable to radar.   What looks very big and solid to the eye can look tiny
or perfectly clear to radar.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:53:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

At 05:41 PM 2/8/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
>
>They all have sufficient fuel for two successive jumps? If so, they are
>giving a lot of tonnage away to fuel that they could otherwise be using
>for their real jobs.
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt
>-- 

Not necessarily.  If they are J-3 capable and arrive by a 1 hex jump with
full tanks they could in theory jump 2 more times without refueling.  Many
of the combat ships of the Empirium are jump 3 capable without drop tanks
and with them they could jump 3 in and have 3 hexes of jump to use if needed.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:52:17 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum > 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> >> At 09:14 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
> >> >> lighter flints.
> >> >You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
> >> >Cool!!
> >> >Keven
> >> Now that I think about it, that may explain why I keep 'misplacing'
> >> lighters.  I'm no misplacing them they are misjumping due the earths gravity
> >> well.  I wonder if socks and driers have a lanthanum catilizing effect?
> >Dunno bout that.  Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I
> >wonder howcome it never Jumped away.
> >
> >Must not of had enough fuel in it...
> 
> Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter fuel.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  I think LHyd would make my lighter too cold to handle.  
Can't we just call the regular lighter fluid 'unrefined fuel' and let it go at 
that??

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #104
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 8 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 105



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Vegans
101st Squadron + GT Modules
Vegan Essays Online
Re: 101st Squadron + GT Modules
Re: Re: Vegans
Re: Lanthanum >
Re: Lanthanum > 
Re: Vegans
Re: Repressive government
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)
Please help privately: Rocks from space...
Re: Tech levels (Revisted)
Re: Spanish edition Traveller [was: TAS Alien Encyclopedia]
Consolidated Sector Information
Re: Noble Armada
Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)
RE: Noble Armada
Re: timetravel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:08:46 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: GURPS Vegans

Vegan: 13 points
ST -2, HT -1, Modified Arm DX+1, Height +20, Weight -35#
G-Intolerance: 0.1
Toughness PD1/DR1, Temperature Tolerance +1 (45-110F)
Less water, +2 Survival (desert)
Nictiating Membrane, Infravision
Extended Lifespan x2

(This racial package simply follows what has been written elsewhere,  --S)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:18:56 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: 101st Squadron + GT Modules

I'm a bit slow catching up here, as my hard drive has been dead for the
past month, but I'm following the 101st squadron thread with interest.
I'd be happy to help where I can (ie, GT ship design and history, etc).

I'm also compiling a large library of GT ships (made by others and using
my own U-BYUTE spreadsheet) and modules (for new systems and existing
systems at other tech levels than 10 and 12). I wasn't happy with the
sensors in the bridges; for example, a TL 12 warship and large trader
shouldn't have the same sensor suite, and EW is not considered at all,
so I would be happy to post module design from Vehicles of extra active
and passive sensors, as well as jammers and "fluff" modules, like pools,
workshops, stages, halls, etc. if there is sufficient interest.

I'd also like to post my conversions of the supplement 9 fighting ships
in GT format. What do you all think???

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>  <cbarnett@white.aljan.com.au>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:32:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Vegan Essays Online

Veganophiles,

Harold Hale's Vegan information is available online at:

http://dopey.siscom.net/~hdhale/COE.htm

The essays are excellent, and I find them very useful.  And if 
someone out there is putting a bid in for GT: Minor Races, I'd love 
to see these in it.  *hint, hint*

Speaking of Minor Races, thanks to everyone who sent me info on the 
various Minor Races and race lists for my earlier request two weeks 
back.  That's what I love about this list; Travellers help out fellow 
Travellers.  :)

In Gratitude,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:54:09 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 101st Squadron + GT Modules

>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Mon Feb 08 12:16:21 1999
>Received: from [206.66.87.5] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id 
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>Message-ID: <36BEBA10.584E9F84@iname.com>
>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:18:56 +1100
>From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Subject: 101st Squadron + GT Modules
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
>I'm a bit slow catching up here, as my hard drive has been dead for the
>past month, but I'm following the 101st squadron thread with interest.
>I'd be happy to help where I can (ie, GT ship design and history, etc).
>
>I'm also compiling a large library of GT ships (made by others and 
using
>my own U-BYUTE spreadsheet) and modules (for new systems and existing
>systems at other tech levels than 10 and 12). I wasn't happy with the
>sensors in the bridges; for example, a TL 12 warship and large trader
>shouldn't have the same sensor suite, and EW is not considered at all,
>so I would be happy to post module design from Vehicles of extra active
>and passive sensors, as well as jammers and "fluff" modules, like 
pools,
>workshops, stages, halls, etc. if there is sufficient interest.
>
>I'd also like to post my conversions of the supplement 9 fighting ships
>in GT format. What do you all think???
>
>--
>Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>  
<cbarnett@white.aljan.com.au>
>
That would be great....I was thinking of doing the GT stats of the 
Levithan...I need to get a copy of G: Vechiles...One of the few I DON'T 
have....

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:54:37 EST
From: "Sean Nelson" <sean_c_nelson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Vegans

Hi Clay,

I seem to recall an essay on them (or at least on the Vegan Autonomous 
Region) in CT Supplement 10(?): Solomani Rim.

- -Sean Nelson


>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:07:24 PST
>From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Re: Vegans
>>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:08:01 -0800
>>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>>Subject: Re: Vegans
>>Harold Hale did some nice historical write ups of them [Vegans] in 
>>The Traveller Chronicle. Though they were intended for use with his 
>>TNE setting,they're usable for other settings as well.

>Which one were they detailed in and where can I get it?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:49:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum >

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>> >Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I
>> >wonder howcome it never Jumped away.
>> >Must not of had enough fuel in it...
>> Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter
>>fuel.
>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  I think LHyd would make my lighter too cold to
>handle.
>Can't we just call the regular lighter fluid 'unrefined fuel' and let it
>go at
>that??

If you can tell me how to skim it?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:15:25 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum > 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> >> >Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I
> >> >wonder howcome it never Jumped away.
> >> >Must not of had enough fuel in it...
> >> Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter
> >>fuel.
> >Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  I think LHyd would make my lighter too cold to
> >handle.
> >Can't we just call the regular lighter fluid 'unrefined fuel' and let it
> >go at
> >that??
> 
> If you can tell me how to skim it?

Simple.  I pop it outta the case, turn it upside down, and squeeze the can the 
fuel is in.  Wala.  Skimmed.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:47:36 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Vegans

The Traveller Chronicle #9 or 10 has the Vegans information.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:47:36 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Repressive government

In a message dated 2/8/99 2:30:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
hollenbaugh@hotmail.com writes:

<<  If I'm reading both of your posts correctly, 
 the scientists and philosophers are going to be the first ones shipped 
 off for "reeducation". >>

	In my post, it's scientists and the most able technicians who are amply
rewarded for their efforts by the ruling elite, thus the high tech level,
philosophers on the other hand are re-educated, thus the oppresive system.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:04:53 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:37:54 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 2/6/99 8:28:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>greimann@geocities.com writes:
>
><<  (mine is 073, who are my neighbors?) i >>
>
>I have #72 
>
>Seth
>
I have #006

- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:05:53 -0800
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)

>This is all true except for the part about civil servants.  My reading of
>the book (I've read it about 20 times, one of my favorites) is that you
>can't even hold office unless you have served at least one term in the
>military.  Originally society had broken down and the only ones who could
>fix it were the military types who had the guts for the hard decisions and
>understood how to organize.  You could be a civil servant and even an
>office holder BUT you could not vote until after you had given to the state
>by serving in one of the armed forces period.  So in short a police officer
>could be hired to police or some such civil type job but you could not vote
>or be elected to an office until you had been franchised.  That is why no
>one in the heros family had ever had the vote since they were rich they
>didn't feel they needed to serve to do business.
>Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
>Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
>"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
>Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

Actually, it seems to me that the police are part of federal service, not
civillian jobs. I could be wrong as I'm reading this for the first time,
however I did just read two parts that seemed to back this. First off,
reference is made that a lot of M.I. leave service for Police jobs. Another
point, there is a fight where an officer shows up at the end of it. He lets
them walk because they're M.I.

Later.

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 03:37:49 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Please help privately: Rocks from space...

Hi, all:
I just had a discussion with a friend on the viablility of causing 
heavy damage on the surface using 30 feet rocks hurled from space.
As this topic has been done to death on the TML, could some kind soul
forward me the main points on why it is/isnt a viable option in real 
life terms? You would be of great assistance...
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:30:28 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

In a message dated 2/8/99 2:25:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
trevor@browne5.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< ilani culture was obviously very widespread pre ROM, however many of its
 vital corner stones were suppressed by the Solomani, the caste system for
 example. While I think that this could have been overturned on many worlds
 during the long night I dont think that this reverse would have been
 universal.  Also the 3I culture would seem to be at least Solomani
 based aristocracy, measurements, language etc- albeit with heavy Vilani
 influences.   >>

	Also, remember that the plague of Duskir significantly increased the
proportion of Solomani to Vilani in all of the old Second Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:12:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Spanish edition Traveller [was: TAS Alien Encyclopedia]

Where can you locate this edition?

- --Clif

><< For me the only Traveller item that is even 'nicer' is the Spanish
>edition.
> (Has the additional bonus of including artwork not seen anywhere else.)
>  >>
>
>
>and then asked:
>>Is it hard to find? I would like to use it to help myself learn Spanish...
>
>
>I didn't have too much trouble.  Got it, IIRC from Quincey Koziol.
>
>tc
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:35:01 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Consolidated Sector Information

This document represents a compilation of known published sector data
for the Traveller Universe.

Source Magazine Abbreviations:
	"CH" = Challenge
	"FT" = Far Trader
	"HP" = High Passage
	"IMP" = Imperiallines
	"JTAS" = Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
	"MTJ" = MegaTraveller Journal
	"TC" = Traveller Chronicle
	"TD" = Travellers' Digest

Timeline Abbreviations:
	"CT" = Classic Timeline (approx. 1100 to 1115)
	"RT" = Rebellion Timeline (approx. 1117 to 1130)
	"M0" = Milleu Zero Timeline (approx. -5 to 30) 
	"VT" = Virus Timeline (approx. 1201)
	"GT" = Gurps:Traveller Timeline (1120)

Alpha Crucis	HIWG renames this "Alpha Leonis"
		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

Amdukan		location specified in Alien Module 2 - K'kree (CT)
		Hiraku (G) subsector in CH #52 (RT)

Antares		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Shurlarlem (E) subsector in CH #69 (RT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Core		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Core (G) subsector and library data in TD #8 (CT)
		Bunkeria (I), Cemplas (J) subsectors and library data
			in TD #9 (CT)
		Chant (K) and Cadion (M) subsectors in TD #10 (CT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Corridor	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Ian (E) subsector and library data in TD #3 (CT)
		full details in TD #18 (RT)

Dagudashag	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		unknown info in issues of Signal GK fanzine (CT/RT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Daibei		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Hermes (N) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #15 (CT)

Dark Nebula	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		(Solomani worlds marked Imperial)
		Kilrai' (G) subsector, trade routes and library data
			in TD #17 (CT)
		full details in Solomani and Aslan (RT)

Delphi		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Eta-Gu (M) subsector in CH #45 (RT)
		declared referee expansion area by Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Deneb		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		(invalidates the Stapelhurst "Deneb Sector" charity product)
		Pretoria (A) subsector and library data in TD #1 (CT)
		Atsah (H) subsector details in TD #2 (CT)
		sector map and library data in TD #19 (RT)
		full details in MTJ #3 (RT)
		full details in Regency Sourcebook (VT)

Diaspora	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		full sector details in Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora
			Sector (RT)
		Khavle (D) and Pasdaruu (H) subsectors detailed in
			Hard Times (1125)
		library data in TC #2-5 (RT)
		Narquel (?) and Shadigi (?) in CH #64
		Sufren (C) subsector in CH #76 and TNE Ref Shield (VT)
		full details in TNE Deluxe Boxed set (RT/VT)
		L and P subsectors in Path of Tears (VT)
		D, H and L subsectors in Vampire Fleets (VT) 
		O subsector in The Gilded Lily (VT)

Ealiyasiyw	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		full details info in TD #18 (RT)

Empty Quarter	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

Far Frontiers	Jungleblut (O) subsector and library data in
			Trail of the Sky Raiders (CT)
		Antedeluvia (I) and Alsas(J) subsectors in TC #2
		Taemerlyk (K), Vulvek (L) and Wulfek(M) subsectors in TC #3	
		Cabala (N), Jungleblut(O) and Mnemosyne (P) subsectors
			in TC #4
		Detsiaiem (A) and Ienji (B) subsectors in TC #5
		Naianch (C), Qiedrkia (D) and Pia (E) subsectors in TD #6
		addl library data in TC #7

Foreven		two worlds located in Double Adventure 5 -
			The Chamax Plague/Horde (CT)
		system map, declared referee expansion area in IMP #1 (CT)
	 	some details in Assignment: Vigilante (RT)

Fornast		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		declared referee expansion area by Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Gateway		location specified in Alien Module 2 - K'kree (CT)
		full sector details in MTJ #4 (CT/RT)

Glimmerdrift
Reaches		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		(invalidates previous Judges' Guild materials)

Gushemege	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)
		some details in The Long Way Home (M0)

Gvurrdon	sector map and system data in Alien Module 3 - Vargr (CT)

Hinterworlds	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		full sector details in CH #39 (CT/RT)

Hlakhoi		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

Ilelish		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Iwahfuah	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		(lower half of map has repeating pattern error)

Ley		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		(invalidates previous Judges' Guild materials)

Lishun		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Masionia (F), Shuna (I) subsector, xboat map and
			library data in TD #6 (CT)
		subsectors A and partial E in Flaming Eye (RT)
		Ot Zell (L) subsector in CH #71 (VT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Magyar		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Blackjack (N) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #14 (CT/RT)
		(xboat map incorrect, ignores Imperial/Solomani border)

Massilia	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Shiwonee (J) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #11 (CT)
		full details in Knightfall (some typos in data) (RT)
		subsector A in TNE rulebook (VT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Mendan		location given in Alien Module 3 - Vargr (CT)
		full details in CH #49 (RT)

Old Expanses	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Dethenes (A) subsector in HP #1 (CT)
		So Skire (O) subsector in HP #2 (CT)
		Dethenes (A) and Ile(H) subsector in HP #3 (CT)
		Ahrhi (C) subsector in HP #4 (CT)
		Shenk (J) subsector in HP #5 (CT) 
		Dethenes (A) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #12 (CT)
		unknown info in Star Vikings and other TNE products (VT)
		I, J, M and N subsectors in Path of Tears (VT)

Provence	location specified in Alien Module 3 - Vargr (CT)	
		sector map in MTJ #2 (RT)

Reavers' Deep	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		sector info in HP #5 (CT)
		Ea (J) subsector in FT #1 (CT)
		Scotian Deep (F) subsector in FT #2 (CT)
		material in Andrew Keith Gamelords adventures (CT)
		Drexilthar (K) subsector in Pilot's Guide to the
			Drexilthar Subsector (CT)
		Urlaqqash (L) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #16 (CT)
		Caledon (G) subsector and library data in TC #5 and TC #7
		unknown info (TNE-related) in TC #6 (VT)
		portions of K/L/O/P subsectors in Letters of Marque (CT)

Reft		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Islands subsectors (J/K) in Supplement 5 - Trillion Credit
			Squadron (CT)
		sector map and library data in TD #2((M0)) (RT)
		full details in MTJ #3 (RT)
		A-G, J and K subsectors in Regency Sourcebook (VT)
		(some physical contradictions with earlier material)

Riftspan
Reaches		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		sector map and library data in TD #19 (RT)

Solomani Rim	full details in Supplement 10 - The Solomani Rim (CT)
		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		library data in TD #13 (CT)
		full details in Alien Module 6 - Solomani (CT)
		full details in TC #10 and #11 (VT)
		corrections to TC #10-11 in TC #12 (VT)

Spica		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

Spinward
Marches		full details in Supplement 3 - The Spinward Marches (CT)
		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		full details in The Spinward Marches Campaign (CT)
		addl details in CT/MT adventures and supplements (CT)
		full details in MTJ #3 (RT)
		full details in Regency Sourcebook (VT)
		full details in Behind the Claw (GT)

Staihaia'yo	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

The Beyond	full details in Paranoia Press materials (questionable canon)

Trojan Reach	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Egryn (B) and Pax Rulin (C) subsectors in
			Adventure 4 - Leviathan (CT)
		sector map and library data in TD #20 (RT)
		full details in MTJ #3 (RT)
		C, D, G and H subsectors in Regency Sourcebook (VT)

Tuglikki	location specified in Alien Module 3 - Vargr (CT)	
		sector map in MTJ #2 (RT)

Vanguard
Reaches		location shown in Alien Module 1 - Aslan (CT)
		full details in Paranoia Press materials (questionable canon)

Verge		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)

Vland		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Kagamira (F) subsector details in TD #4 (CT)
		unknown subsector details in TD #5 (CT)
		full details in Vilani and Vargr (RT)
		unknown info in Flaming Eye (RT)
		system data in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

Windhorn	location specified in Alien Module 3 - Vargr (CT)	
		some info in Flaming Eye (RT)

Zarushagar	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Wolf (K) and Oasis (L) subsectors in TD #21 (RT)
		unknown info in late Challenge issues (GT)
		declared referee expansion area in Milleu 0 Campaign (M0)

==========================================================================

- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:01:56 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Noble Armada

Hi-
  Has anyone ever seen deck plans from this company or game, Noble Armada?
Supposedly they were approved for use with Traveller. Are they worth picking
up?
Thanks-
J.LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:09:54 -0500
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers (Seriously OT)

At 02:05 PM 2/8/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Actually, it seems to me that the police are part of federal service, not
>civillian jobs. I could be wrong as I'm reading this for the first time,
>however I did just read two parts that seemed to back this. First off,
>reference is made that a lot of M.I. leave service for Police jobs. Another
>point, there is a fight where an officer shows up at the end of it. He lets
>them walk because they're M.I.

I"ve re-read the part your mentioning and the is no reference to the police
being federal service.  The fight in question was not instigated by the
M.I. troopers and the officer knows it.  He asks the M.I. if they want to
press charges, they don't (they won) and then they leave, note that this
leaving is not the same as the office letting then off BECAUSE they are
M.I.  My point is still valid, only former military personnel have the
right to vote. No its not a society that could exist today but that the
beauty of book, you can make up any society you want.



Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:02:41 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Noble Armada

I bought a set. They're drawn to the same scale as the Trav Miniatures,
but you have to flesh out the ship designs yourself.

I've done so for the set I bought, but I don't have them "publishable"
yet. 

They're nice plans, if you don't mind the extra work.

JeffG

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"  (Dr. Strangeglove,
1963)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	JLAROSEE@aol.com [SMTP:JLAROSEE@aol.com]
> Sent:	08 February 1999 20:02
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Noble Armada
> 
> Hi-
>   Has anyone ever seen deck plans from this company or game, Noble
> Armada?
> Supposedly they were approved for use with Traveller. Are they worth
> picking
> up?
> Thanks-
> J.LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:16:41 EST
From: Clifford N Linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Re: timetravel

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:59:45 +0100 (MET) From: Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
>Also remember the 'Zhodani Map Box', which also shows precognition
talents
>in very accurate manner. Also a hook for a time machine?
>
>That's the most travellerish for me: Enigmas supporting new enigmas
>leading to other enigmas ...
>
>L.A.

There are 6 Zhodani Map Devices that I have found. I don't know how
cannon this info is, but it is listed in the MT books.

Zhodani Map Device: In the Ruins of the old Ancient Site on Zhdant, the
Zhodani found a small device which could project a 3D starmap which
covered a corridor 8.000 parsecs long and 30 parsecs wide aimed coreward.
The artifact also proved to be a strong psionic focus for only the most
talented psions (less than 1/10.000) managed to have it reveal more
accurate data, such as clearer visions of ships and star constellations
somewhere the mapped route. When these visions proved to be true
reflections of reality, the device was made a state-secret overnight, to
be used only under very strictly controlled circumstances. This device
has been one of the main reasons for the Zhodani to launch their Core
Expeditions.

Anch - One of the Ancient Map Projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
Leak #5)
Biaq - An Ancient artifact which projects a starmap leading to the
galactic core. (Security Leak #5)
Biaqiash - General term for all core map projectors found by the Zhodani.
(Security Leak #5)
Chtiezh - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani.
(Security Leak #5)
Poql - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
Leak #5)
Vim - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
Leak #5)

Cliff

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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #105
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 106



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Grandfather and the Aslans
G:T vs CT
Cloaking (was Lanthanum Grid Cloaking)
Re:  timetravel
Meson Guns II
Re: timetravel 
Re: Bootable Lawyers
Re: Combat Support Element 
Re: G:T vs CT 
Re: Combat Support Element 
Refighting the Spanish Civil War
Re: G:T vs CT
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: G:T vs CT 
Re: Refighting the Spanish Civil War
Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]
Re: Tech Levels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:26:38 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Grandfather and the Aslans

Great post by  Hans, or repost as the case may be.  I have a couple of
nits, but since you probably heard them the first time I'll just alter what
I need for MTU.  Of course I'll credit the esteemed Dr. Rancke-Madsen of
the Department of Non-human Archeology, University of Gazulin, noted for
his excellent work in the field of alien history and sociology .

One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use Coyns in
casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start casting in the
first place?  Accidental discovery?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:26:50 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: G:T vs CT

Hans Rancke wrote
>>>>>>>
Sigh. Mostly because the standard world generation system have zero
correlation between habitability and population. One of its few flaws,
but it's a doozy!



So, do I alter the population and tech level rules in First In, or
     do we accept the fact that the Spinward Marches were designed using
     less realistic rules?  (This isn't the only case in which First In
     will give you noticeably different results from the Classic Traveller
     system, either.)
Jon Zeigler


There is currently a debate on the playtest of First In.  Using a more
realist set of world/system generating, you get worlds that dont' match
Traveller canon.  Supposedly there are 125 systems in the Spinward Marches
alone that violate the proposed generation system.  While some can be
explained away, many more cannot.  And this is only for one sector, how many
more star system are like this across the canon sectors created by CT rules?

I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary to get
them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living in exotic
atmospheres!

What does anyone else think?  More realistic or stick with canon or
something in between?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:26:59 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Cloaking (was Lanthanum Grid Cloaking)

Phil Kitching
>>>>>>>>>
The problem is that you can't just broadcast an anti-signal...

If there is no physical way to 'cloak' a ship, is there a software, v-chip,
way to do it?

I've been playing with the idea of 'hardened' installations and or ships
being invisible to sensors, not because of some type of cloaking device
(which seems impossible) but because the sensors are built not to recognize
certain things.  This was from some story that the civilzation didn't trust
artificial intelligences and kept them spoofed with things like this.

If the Imperial government controls 'the space between the stars' and all
the starports, doesn't that mean they control all starship construction?  Or
at least the technical specs for starships?  Certain installations and ships
could be built that activate this vchip, spoofing the sensors.  The
installation itself could be pouring out a broad range of EM, but if the
computers that operate your sensors have the vchip, you don't see anything
on your screens.

This won't work against non Imperial ships, of course, so it would'nt help
against a Zhodani attack fleet, or probably even a vargr corsair (unless it
was built with Imperial sensors), so such things would have limited military
use.  But would there be enough need by the government to keep Eneri the
merchant capitan from 'seeing' a top secret research station in an outter
system?

Would the trouble of maintaining tech standards across the Imperium match the
possible gains?

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:27:12 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:  timetravel

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

the  universe  ...  the ultimate violation of the law of Conservation of
Matter/Energy!


That sounds like a sig. line if I ever heard one.


Sig.less Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:26:26 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Meson Guns II

First off, thanks to everyone who responded. The info has helped me flesh
out an adventure for 2300 AD.

Once I get the darned thing posted I will invite everyone to take a look.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:34:42 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: timetravel 

> Anch - One of the Ancient Map Projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
> Leak #5)
> Biaq - An Ancient artifact which projects a starmap leading to the
> galactic core. (Security Leak #5)
> Biaqiash - General term for all core map projectors found by the Zhodani.
> (Security Leak #5)
> Chtiezh - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani.
> (Security Leak #5)
> Poql - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
> Leak #5)
> Vim - One of the Ancient map projectors found by the Zhodani. (Security
> Leak #5)

What's 'Security Leak'?  A fanzine?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 22:42:08 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Bootable Lawyers

On 02/05/99 at 12:05 AM,  steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>> The prospect of "legalbots" could result in Shakespeare's famous line
>> being rewritten to:

>> "First thing we do, let's degauss the lawyers!"

>You all know that this infamous line was spoken by the bad guys,
>right?

I did, but did *you* know that it was reported to have received a
rousing cheer from the audience even in the play's first run.  ;->

"Just what *is* it about lawyers that seems to universally 'tic'
people off?" he asks rhetorically.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:47:06 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element 

At 01:23 PM 2/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> << You risk arriving with the enemy between your battle line and combat
>> >>  support element.
>> >>   >>
>> >> 
>> >> true; but the outer system is large, and the supports can jump out if
they
>> >> can't evade...
>> >> 
>> >
>> >       ...  And one on side the defender has a few troop ships, a supply
>> >ship, a couple of tankers and a hospital ship;  the other side is a
>> >million-plus tons of spinal mount weilding ships.  Does he *care* about
>> >the CSE group?  Not right now =)
>> 
>> Hey, If I close the Combat Support element I can kill them while opening
>> with the enemy battleline. Divide and conquer.
>> 
>> Anyway, the enemy battleline can't take whatever I'm defending away from
>> me. The troopships can.
>
>But while you're whacking out easy soft targets, the Intruder's main battle 
>line can be softening up your orbital defenses and coming up your kilt.  He 
>may not be able to land and hold more than a small island for a beachhead,
but 
>he'll be able to keep *YOU* away from home pretty easily.  And if he does
some 
>creative resupplying, he can always fuel up a courier ship and go bring in 
>reinforcements.  You, on the other tentacle, having no jump-capable ships,
are 
>*stuck*.  How long can you breathe vacuum?

This kind of reminds me of the reputation that the Russian Admiral (can't
remember his name) on _Lenin_ from Mote in God's Eye had...He could not
land troops to secure the planet so he sterilized it.  Mission accomplished.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:57:08 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT 

> I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
> generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary to get
> them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living in exotic
> atmospheres!

TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor 
race, 99% likely to be *nonhuman*.  A classic example from sci fi:  The 
Ullers, from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising', were recruited to work on a 
planet with a heavy florine taint because they could handle it better than 
humans could, being a silicon-based life form.

> What does anyone else think?  More realistic or stick with canon or
> something in between?

You can *always* come up with a reason for things being the way they are if 
you look hard enough.  You just gotta let go of your humanocentricism and let 
your imagination *fly*.  Remember, we're talking alien planets here, *not* 
your won back yard...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:05:04 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element 

> >But while you're whacking out easy soft targets, the Intruder's main battle 
> >line can be softening up your orbital defenses and coming up your kilt.  He 
> >may not be able to land and hold more than a small island for a beachhead,
> but 
> >he'll be able to keep *YOU* away from home pretty easily.  And if he does
> some 
> >creative resupplying, he can always fuel up a courier ship and go bring in 
> >reinforcements.  You, on the other tentacle, having no jump-capable ships,
> are 
> >*stuck*.  How long can you breathe vacuum?
> 
> This kind of reminds me of the reputation that the Russian Admiral (can't
> remember his name) on _Lenin_ from Mote in God's Eye had...He could not
> land troops to secure the planet so he sterilized it.  Mission accomplished.

Admiral Kuzov.  (*NO* relation, Eris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep




tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 23:12:20 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Refighting the Spanish Civil War

On 02/05/99 at 06:35 PM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> said:

>Actually, we need a planet to refight the Spanish Civil War on - it's
>such a good war for adventuring, with unofficial interventions (the
>Italian 'pirate submarines'), tghe International Brigade, the
>Nationalist volunteers, fighting within all factions, and so on.

I remember a short story by Jerry Pournelle set in his Falkenberg
ficton that was a, not so vaguely veiled, replay of the SCW.

>On the other hand, the Imperium is not a particularly ideological
>place, and the Spanish Civil War just doesnt make sense without
>Communism, Anti-Communism, Anarchism and so on firing up all the
>participants.

The *Imperium* isn't particularly ideological, but some of its
member worlds quite probably are.  Frankly, I suspect we humans will
always have our conflicts between utopians who dream of the ideal
social order, pragmatists who dream only of order, and those dream
of personal wealth and power.  While we do, conditions will arise
from time to time where past events play out all over again.  

Now *if* you have such a world in a strategic position surrounded by
competing powers you could see a reply of the Spanish Civil War. I
can easily see "volunteer brigades" and "space pirates" being
unofficially sponsored by the competing powers.  Adventure parties
could be hired as mercenaries, crew ships "running guns" and
supplies to one side or the other, or just get caught up
accidentally in the madness.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:17:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT

Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
you're at it, free the Border Worlds!  

It's strange, though.  I never had a problem explaining worlds in
canon.  Of course a world with an exotic atmosphere can have a local
TL of 2.  When you are an exporter of bulk gases, why would you try to
manufacture anything more advanced than a gas cylinder?  That's just
one quick off-the-cuff, knowing very little about the planet, but you
get my drift.  Most worlds are exploited to support the Rich, Ind and
Hi-Pops.  Especially on a frontier, a large number of the worlds are
hellholes with a very narrow use.  The changes you are proposing sound
as though they would preclude the occurance of virgin worlds. 
Homogenization is good for milk, but for Traveller?



- ---Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:
> There is currently a debate on the playtest of First In.  Using a more
> realist set of world/system generating, you get worlds that dont'
match
> Traveller canon.  Supposedly there are 125 systems in the Spinward
Marches
> alone that violate the proposed generation system.  While some can be
> explained away, many more cannot.  And this is only for one sector,
how many
> more star system are like this across the canon sectors created by
CT rules?
> 
> I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
> generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary
to get
> them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living
in exotic
> atmospheres!
> 
> What does anyone else think?  More realistic or stick with canon or
> something in between?



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
List your Traveller cargoes for sale or wanted
on the "Subsidized Merchant" page - 
http://surf.to/traveller-trader 


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 23:20:26 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

On 02/05/99 at 01:28 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>> Is there a real lanthanum?  Or is it one of the proposed 'island of
>> stability' elements beyond californium?

>It's real. 

>> What are it's physical properties?  Atomic weight?  Atomic number?  Mass per
>> cubic cm?  Ductility?  Tensile strength?  Conductivity?  Is it a metal?  If
>> it is real or canon.

>It's a metal.

Am I misremembering, or doesn't lanthanum have a strong affinity for
hydrogen?  I seem to recall it being suggested as a way of holding a
large quantity of hydrogen in a safe manner.

ObTrav...that's why I thought lanthanum was picked for the grid,
it's ability to absorb and then slowly release large quantities of
hydrogen.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:00:35 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT 

> It's strange, though.  I never had a problem explaining worlds in
> canon.  Of course a world with an exotic atmosphere can have a local
> TL of 2.  When you are an exporter of bulk gases, why would you try to
> manufacture anything more advanced than a gas cylinder?  That's just
> one quick off-the-cuff, knowing very little about the planet, but you
> get my drift.  Most worlds are exploited to support the Rich, Ind and
> Hi-Pops.  Especially on a frontier, a large number of the worlds are
> hellholes with a very narrow use.  The changes you are proposing sound
> as though they would preclude the occurance of virgin worlds. 

Even 'garden worlds' can be traps.  They might have all the necessary things 
on them for human life, but still be inhospitable for some reason or another, 
like, the primary is a flare star, or a deadly disease lives there, or it 
could just be set aside for future Imperial expansion when the time is right.

> Homogenization is good for milk, but for Traveller?

Absolutely.  IMNSFBHO, every world should have its *own* feel.  But then, 
that's just me, & *everybody* knows I'm weird...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:10:19 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Refighting the Spanish Civil War

From: Eris Reddoch 
> Now *if* you have such a world in a strategic position surrounded by
> competing powers you could see a reply of the Spanish Civil War. I
> can easily see "volunteer brigades" and "space pirates" being
> unofficially sponsored by the competing powers.  Adventure parties
> could be hired as mercenaries, crew ships "running guns" and
> supplies to one side or the other, or just get caught up
> accidentally in the madness.

Hmm.  Some possible worlds in the Spinward Marches:

Porozlo - balkanised along ideological lines:  Free Commerce vs Private
Ownership.  Add extreme versions of each faction, the Ine Givar, and some
Vargr.

Aramanx - general battleground/powderkeg.  Ideological differences are
unclear.  Vargr are involved.

Garda-Vilis/Tanoose - Separatists vs pro-Vilisans vs whatever.  Sword
Worlders & Ine Givar & probably Arden Federation types all meddling.

Vilis - Could easily have a "mishap" in the aftermath of Garda-Vilis
trouble.  "Franco" could be commander of Vilisan colonial forces on
Garda-Vilis.

Any world in the Sword Worlds/Border Worlds.

Also, any world in the Islands Cluster.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:24:48 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]

>
>> Leonard,
>> Thanks for the info about the Babylonian 'roller seals'.
>> These must be TL 0 by definition if they antedate writing.
>>
>> You also wrote :-
>>> At first, writing is a "secret code". Later, simple codes are devised,
>>> and the first cryptographic device was a strip of paper wound around a
>>> rod. you wrote at right angles to the winding, and then sent the paper
>>> strip. To decode, it had to be wound around a rod of the same size.
>>> Otherwise the letters didn't line up.
>>
>> Yes, I think the Romans commonly used these as well as spacing and
>> letter substitution codes (alphabet shift initially, then numbers for
>> letters and the like).
>
>The earliest substitution ciphers are Caesar ciphers after Julius
>Caesar's alleged use of one where A=C, B=D, etc
>
>> Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>
>TL2: multiple substition ciphers (ie early Vigneirre(sp) ciphers) where
>multiple cipher alphabets are used in some pattern to encode the plain
>text. Invisible ink (a form of steganography), while possible at
>earlier levels seems to have been discovered at this level. Also
>transposition ciphers (where the letters are unchanged, but the order
>is scrambled according to some rule or rules) appear. And in
>Elizabethan times, "nomenclators" appear. These are the first
>proto-codes. Inside cipher messages "code words" are used to refer to
>specific persons, countries, and occasionally objects.
>
>Thus deciphering a message would get you:
>
>Be warned XXZZYY is going to be at ASSDW on May 15th.
>
>Makes things harder...
>
>> TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>> synchronised rolling ciphers).
>
>Thomas Jefferson (yse, the one who wrote the Declaration of
>Indpendence) invented the first mechanical encryption device. It was
>ignored and later *re-invented* for use in WWII and Korea! It consisted
>of a series of disk (identified by numbers) each of which had a
>scrambled alphbet printed on the rim. The "key" was a list of which
>disks were to be used and in what order. You strung them on a threaded
>rod, placed a washer on each end and used wingnuts to hold them in
>place. To encipher a message you turned the disks until the plain text
>was reproduced in a line running the length of the cylinder. You then
>picked one of the 25 *other* lines of text running along the cylinder
>and sent that. At the other end, they turned their disks until the
>ciphertext was reproduced, and then looked to see which of the other 25
>rows made sense. That was the plain text.
>
>If the message was too long to fit on one row, you
>enciphered/deciphered the message in chunks. It was a great "tactical"
>level cipher device. Easy to build and use, and secure enough to be
>safe for a reasonable length of time. The advent of computers killed
>it.
>
>The first *true* codes probably appeared in this period. These are
>where each end has a list of words and phrases with a multi-letter or
>number "group" that is to represent the word or phrase. The receiver
>has a list of the code groups with the phrases written out after
them.
>
>Codes are *much* harder to crack than ciphers. But computers have
>pretty much killed them too.
>
>> TL 4 : 1850's - 1920's. Morse code. Number and group theory.
>
>Decryption becomes formalized. Most countries not only have
departments
>devoted to breaking enemy codes and ciphers, but they have begun to
be
>*systematic* in the breaking of ciphers.
>
>We also get the typewriter, teletype and the fax in this period (the
>fax predates the telephone!). Teletype (TTY) and typewriters lead to
>mechanical encryption devices (ie you merely type in the plain text
and
>out comes the cipher text, and vice-versa).
>
>The enigma type devices were actually products of *this* period. They
>just took a while to become common.
>
>Crypto theory becomes well developed, and is first made public at the
>end of this period (Yardley's book about the "American Black
Chamber").
>
>Steganography hits its first peak. Messages are hidden as moves in
>games of postal chess, as tiny dots or pinpricks over letters in
>newsclippings, newspapers or books.
>
>> TL 5 : 1920's - end WW2 -> Enigma and similar multi codewheel
>> scrambling. Microdots.
>
>Enigma is TL 4. Voice scrambling is is a TL5 developement. So is TV.
>Microdots *may* be TL4.
>
>One time code pads probably arise at this time.
>
>> TL 6 : to the end of the 60's -> information theory, computer based
>> encryption decryption.
>
>TL5. Stuff declassified in the last 10 years show both the US and
>britian building crude computers to decrypt German messages during
>WWII.
>
>TL6 would be information theory, spread spectrum transmissions, and
>bitwise ciphering.
>
>> TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages
in
>> plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
>
>Early *computer* steganography. Steganography has been around since
>someone shaved a messenger's head, tattooed the message on his scalp
>and sent him off on a long trip. By the time he got anywhere
dangerous,
>his hair had grown out and the message was hidden unless you looked
>*really* carefully. Then at the destination, his head would be shaved
>again and the message read. If it was *really* secret, he'd be
killed.
>And of course, he was carrying a normal but innocent messagge as
well.
>
>> TL 8 : electronic watermarking, PGP
>> TL 9 : entangled qubits? Hiding information in 'noise'? (chaotic
>> generators or attractors as messages or keys?).
>
>> The crypto and computer rating concepts from 'Central Supply
Catalog'
>> (in GURPS from quite early on - sigh) might be a starting point for
>> useful T5 rules.....
>
>Well, I've given what was actually *occuring* in real history at
>various times. And keep in mind the fact that the most *recent* info
>available to the public on the techniques used for decryption by the
>government is from the *50s*.

Not at all, the information on modern decryption techniques is
available on the net. In fact, the net is the location of the most
modern crypto techniques, including the one that
broke 128-bit RSA encryption recently

>We have *partial* info on encryption techniques since then.

Actually we have _complete_ information on modern crypto techniques.

The concept of the enemy not knowing your encryption technique is not
currently considered a serious way of protecting your information.

A modern cryptogrphic method _must_ be able to stand up well to an
enemy that has
both  the algorithm and the ability to have any text they like
encrypted by you.

This happens to be simple, knowing the algorithm doesn't really help
you crack 2048-bit RSA encryption.

>There's *no* info avialable (to my knowledge) about computer assisted
>cracking of codes, or of modern bit-oriented ciphers.

There's tons actually. Try the crypto newsgroup faqs, and the many
excellent mathematics texts on the subjects (I'd give a reference, but
I don't currently have access to my library)

In general though, while a few techniques can be used to narrow the
search space, the only realistic methods of cracking are brute force,
the arguments are merely over which brute force search pattern is
likley to be optimal, a simple example would be: "is sequentially
trying each possible key better than randomly trying each possible key
?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:48:22 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels

>From: "Trevor Browne" <trevor@browne5.freeserve.co.uk>
>Subject: Tech levels (Revisted)
>

<stuff deleted>

>I concede that there are convincing arguments for quite dramatic tech lags
>and in the backwoods of many worlds I think that very primitive societies
>may remain. However I still maintain that there is too great a diversity
>within the more mature interstellar communities for these arguments alone to
>make it credible, without considerable suspension of disbelief.  Not that I
>necessarily feel that Well I like it isnt a good enough reason for the
>variation to remain.  More on this another day.
>

You dont need to suspend disbelief. Just adopt Marxist/Post-Marxist
development theory for the purposes of Traveller. Just tell the players
that a capitalist system tends towards a perpetual crisis of
underdevelopment in it's neocolonial economies.

Those of you who believe in neoclassical economics can regard it as an
econobabble handwave :)

>Communication, Isolation, The Long Night and Sustainable tech.
>I think that for the post long night, M0 campaign and the post viral shut
>down, TNE the diverse TLs are fine.  The worlds have been left to their own
>devices for long periods of time and would have been forced to turn inwards.
>But I think in the very extent of the technological collapse during the long
>night we have evidence of the pervasiveness of exterior influences.  Ask
>yourselves just how sustainable is any nations technology in isolation.
>The UK for example, my home, would be really stuffed if suddenly isolated
>from world trade, yet it is one of the most advanced nations on the planet.

The UK did pretty well between 1939 and 1943, when it's trade fell to less
than a third of it's pre-War level.

>Also I dont imagine that the Technology is developed independently on
>multiple worlds, obviously some duplication of effort will occur as does
>today, but I believe that the 3I scientific communities will be as keen to
>publish their findings as our modern ones.  I also imagine therefore that
>the Imperiums technology is a collective thing with the richest and most
>culturally important regions benefiting first.

I believe that a system dominated by a dozen megacorps is going to be a lot
less academically free than today. Just repeat 'Not Invented Here Syndrome'
and 'It's been invented at six places, and the results were buried in nine'.

>
>Economics & Imports
>If transportation costs are the main factor limiting imports why not build
>factories on the world.  Ford an American car company has factories in the
>UK, Portugal, Poland etc.   I think also resources are a main determining
>factor in planetary wealth not just tech.  Look at Alaska or most of Canada,
>100 years ago wildernesses, now with first world cities, outside investment
>has built these not the native tribes.

Alaska and Canada are part of States that pump a lot of money into their
'neo-colonial peripheries'. In the case of Alaska, a lot of the
infrastructure is a result of the military installations (the Alaska-Canada
Highway was built in WW2) and the fact the state has 2 Senators.

The Imperium doesnt do this. I imagine that individual nobles might, but
more commonly you would bribe the local headman, bring in a company of
hi-tech mercenaries to protect your facility, and shoot any locals who
disagree. Oh yeah, and billet your mercenaries at the starport - first
locals who have a go at them there trigger Imperial intervention.

>
>This leads me to an aside.  Surely many systems would have to import raw
>materials.  Vland for example, after 10,000 years of interstellar society
>there cant be many minerals left in the system.  Also Terra with hardly any
>colonies must have born the brunt of the Interstellar wars logistics, and
>the Earth is running low on many materials now.  Also I imagine many A
>population worlds would have a hard time feeding themselves, although high
>tech farming is perhaps a more obvious solution.  

Shipping in food is cheap, but a high-pop world needs a *lot* of food.

>Continuing this train of
>thought, I ask is bulk shipping of manufactured goods to a system with
>insufficient manufacturing capability really not economically viable if that
>world has the capital to pay for them?.

Simple. If they cant afford it, they dont buy from you. And if this means
they cant buy capital goods, then they stay underdeveloped.

>Again the UK is a good example,
>with little indigenous manufacturing capability the UKs wealth is largely
>derived from trade and financial sources.
>

Sort of. You can run a line from the mercers and suttlers who equipped to
the Elizabethan privateers, to the merchant houses that backed the British
East India Company asset-stripping India, to the banks that put up the
money for the Cotton, Canal and Railways Booms, to the investors who funded
the Industrial Revolution.

And Britain was a manufacturing power, until bankrolling both world wars
exhausted it, and left it with an industrial infrastructure they could not
afford to update.

>Time
>IM(and others)O the Imperium is _very_ stable government with less than 20
>major wars in over 1000 years its also _very_  peaceful.  This is a good
>reason for the slow rate of technological advancement but not a good reason
>for the diversity.  With such an untaxed society plenty of resources would
>be available for other less urgent projects. 

Such as maintaining the Nobility in the style to which it has become
accustomed.

> I just cant believe that
>planets in the main cultural regions of the Imperium, on the main
>communication routes and exposed to free trade and more importantly
>advertising, from exterior influences for over a thousand years of relative
>peace, would fail to be within a few TLs of their neighbours.  The major
>urban areas which is after all what the TL applies to* - of Africa and
>Asia, many of which have only been opened to regular contact with western
>technology for relatively short periods of time are not really that far
>behind, 3TLs at the most.
>
>* TNE rules say:
>The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication
>of the products commonly available on a world in _urban areas or near the
>starport_.  Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from
>large population centres may be one or even two Tech Levels lower.
>

Thats TNE, where interstellar trade isnt anywhere near as pervasive as in
the Imperial Golden Age. For the Golden Age, TL should just apply to local
manufacturing capability, with the rest depending on how well the local can
afford the import price and imported spares.

>Culture & Xenophobia

<stuff deleted>

>influences.  However the myriad of different governments within the Imperium
>would have widely different views on the subject and I am utterly
>comfortable with the idea that some of them wish their world to be backward.
>At least everyone except the leadership itself anyway ?, in a similar style
>to the TEDs in the new era or some African dictatorships today.  However
>would the 3I permit such governments to exist? Realistically quite probably
>as long as they didnt cause too much trouble. This raises a new question
>just how interfering are the 3I authorities.
>

They arent. At least not officially. It's your planet, run it how you want,
as long as you pay your taxes, support the Imperium and dont harbour
pirates or slavers.

>Government aid.
>I think the mere presence of 3I installations would have a dramatic effect
>of the world.  Hong Kong is a good comparable RW example.  Also does the 3I
>not have aid programs or any economic aid packages comparable to EU funding
>for the less developed member states?  I think they would.
>

Nope. This would be a gross intervention of the basic Imperial philiospohy
of ruling the space between the worlds, not the worlds themselves.

Note that Dulinor was almost certainly in favour of this, and the idea that
the Imperium should do this was a reason behind his revolt.

>Finally, re the input from people responding to my question of what a TTL 8
>world could contribute to a TTL 15 war effort.  I did say That could not be
>produced cheaper or better elsewhere, terrible English I know but it was
>the crux of my point.  Incidentally I like the idea of taking low tech
>people for the armed forces.  I can see this could be a problem for the more
>technical posts but for the grunts sounds feasible enough.  Also this could
>lead to some very interesting regimental traditions.
>

Yeah. Note that if you have wages and pensions paid in hard Imperial
credits, then residents of low-tech worlds with weak currencies will be a
lot more eager to join the Imperial Services than residents of the Core
worlds.

>Cheers for now, thanks for the replies.
>
>Trev
>
>In the future everything will work...
>...sort of

Of course it will work. The only question is 'For whom ?'

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #106
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 107



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'
Re: Ship Operator's Manual
Re: Lanthanum
Re: Contents of the Ship's Locker
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Shipping tonnage
Re: Lanthanum
Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Tech levels (Revisted)
Re: Cloaking (was Lanthanum Grid Cloaking)
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Dual Fusion Turrets and World Generation
Re: Ship Operator's Manual
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:31:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'

...
>TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor 
>race, 99% likely to be *nonhuman*.  A classic example from sci fi:  The 
>Ullers, from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising', were recruited to work on a 
>planet with a heavy florine taint because they could handle it better than 
>humans could, being a silicon-based life form.

  IIRC, the Ullerans were well-suited to the extremes of their own world 
(e.g., the polar mines), but are stated as being more susceptible to health
damage from working on Niflheim. OTOH, they work real cheap and two pairs 
of arms helps too...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:51:06 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual

Michael McKeown wrote:

> Does anyone know of a copy for sale? I checked some of the used game
> sites on the Web to no avail....
>
> TIA
> Mike

How much money do you have?   8-)
- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:37:10 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
> > lighter flints.
>
> You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??

Only if it is a navy command lighter. I must have bought one
a payday when I was in.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:45:45 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Contents of the Ship's Locker

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> One item sure to be a big hit in the Ship's Locker or as a personal effect is
> Brian Daley's "Brolly" or Survival Umbrella. Built of tough materials capable
> of standing up to some pretty apalling weather conditions (not all of them
> water-based), with a built-in compass, radio, mosquito netting, stand up feet
> and a terminal spike. Deluxe models may also include a telescoping shaft or a
> short "sword-cane" in the pommel (difficult to do both). Based on this thing's
> capabilities I'd put a Traveller price range of Cr250 to Cr1000 on these,
> based on where you bought it, how well put together it was, and what caliber
> of small arms fire it could deflect.

How bouts the Pathfinder Boots?

The Inheritor's Belt I've already stolen.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:57:13 +1300
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

You mean computers were required to enable the first implementation of the
code.  Everything can be done on paper, given enough time :)

Mike.

From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>

>
>> Robert O'Connor writes:
>>>Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>>>TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>>>synchronised rolling ciphers).
>>
>> You can do that at TL 0
>
>TL 0 on *his* scale excludes writing.
>
>>>TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
>>>plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
>>
>> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual encryption
>> schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about public key
>> encryption.
>
>Nope. The math involved *requires* computers.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:26:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping tonnage

In mail you write:

>>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Shipping tonnage
> ...
>>As  an example, say you want to ship a car that masses 2.3 tonnes but
>>displaces 1 ton.  You'd pay for and get 2.3 tons of space to store the
>>car, thus leaving plenty of room to maneuver around beside it.  Now,
>>let's say you're shipping computers, nice TL 12 jobs.  At 8 kL (~0.6 dT)
>>each and 1600 kg, you'd again pay on the mass scale.  Thus about 65% of
>>the packed volume would be packing material and crating, plus a little
>>maneuvering space to walk around.
>
>   There will immense economic (competitive) pressure to charge by volume,
> as that's how ship design (and cost) is figured. FWIW, a 2-Dt AFV can
> easily mass from 10 to 35+ tonnes; the IM APC is _600,000_ kilos, but only
> 12-Dt, IIRC.

Alas, the designs *should* take mass into account as well. Any *real*
ship can *either* bulk out before it grosses out (ie it ran out of
space well before hitting the mass limit) *or* gross out before it
bulks out (ie it hit the maximum mass it can lift before it ran out of
space in the hold).

One of the odder factors in Traveller ship design is the fact that fuel
is one of the *least* dense materials known. This screws up lots of
things. Including leading game designers to make the mistake of
assuming that cargos have similar densities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:35:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

In mail you write:

>>>>>
>> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
>> lighter flints.
>
> You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
>
> Cool!!
>
> Keven
>>>>>
> ROFL!  I don't smoke, but now I have a real reason to get a lighter! 
> Imagine that, we already have Real World(tm) precursors to Jump drives! 
> All we need now is a Model 3 computer.

I've got *4* TRS-80 Model 4 computers. As well as a couple of Model
100s,  a pair of Model 2000s and one and a half Model 600s.

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:58:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

I just noticed something interesting on a timeline of the development
of life on earth.

It shows the usual bit with the Earth forming 4.8 billion years ago,
and life starting shortly after it got cool enough. And than at 3.6
billion years ago it has the first blue-green algae. Ok fine. That's
when we started getting O2 in the atmosphere. 

But what got me was the next item. 1.2 billion years ago. That's when
Earth finally had a *year round* oxygen atmosphere (and soon after a
permanent ozone layer). Until then we only had an oxygen atmosphere in
the summer, and not much of one at that.

I'd never encountered that "detail" before. And it got me thinking.
That's an *awfully* long time in the history of the planet. I wonder
how many "tainted", "tainted thin", "thin", etc atmospheres are simply
due to the planet being young? It gives us another possible explanation
for some of the weird atmospheres.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:52:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

In mail you write:

>>*All* of them will be metals, with the possible exception of any new
>>"noble gases". The non-metals are restricted to a corner of the
>>periodic chart. And it's full.
>
> Had not though of that, but that is the patern so far.  What if there were
> one that was an effective substitute for carbon/silicon in componds. IE 4
> outer electrons with similar bonding habits?  Who can say what a new valence
> level might act like?

Quantum physics. It has been proven that chemical propeties can be
predicted *completely* by working thru the wave equations. It's just
that it's not *practical* to generate the predictions for anything
beyond hydrogen.

> I'm not looking for any really wierd 'new' properties just a bonding
> charateristic similar to carbon and/or silicon.  What 'thoretical element'
> would most likely match carbon in it's chemical bonding habits?

None. Check things out and note the progression in that part of the
chart. Carbon, silicon, germanium, tin, bismuth, ???. The progression
of preties is steadily more metallic, even as the melting points go
down. 


> What would it's 'theoretical' half life be. 

I don't know how they work that out.

> I was thinking 'for this adventure' that this new element would bond
> like carbon and/or silicon but the new compounds would behave very
> diferent from either.  CO2 is a gas SiO2 is sand (I think Si is
> silicon) but the new XO2 might be a liquid for example.

Ain't gonna happen. The increased atomic weight is going to take care
of *that*. With the exception of "Noble gases" (period VIIIA), it's
virtually *certain* that all non-carbon-based compounds that are
gaseous or liquid at normal temps are already known. Again, it's a
matter of the way the increase in atomic weight affects the properties
of elenments.

> The 'new carbon' would be VERY good at replacing carbon and silicon
> perhaps agressively so with potentially strange effects.  What would
> happen if the silicon substrate in the party's computer were repalced
> with this new element that just happen to be a conductive liquid in
> that compounding...

Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen. because of the way they form
covalent rather than ionic bonds carbon and silicon are the *hardest*
to "displace" in a compound. It's the metals and non-metals that pull
that sort of trick, not the "semi-metals". 

> Evil adventure ideas are brewing in my mind.

Alas, you'll have to come up with ones that don't involve *highly*
improbable properties. Any "interesting" properties of new elements are
going to be "subtle", such as the wide variety of properties the
lathanides have. Their properties on the "gross" scale are *very*
similar. But when you get down to more subtle effects you get weird
things like the solid electrolyte oxygen fuel batteries.

> Is it posible for an isotope of an element to be more stable than is basic 
> type?

The most stable *is* the "basic type". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:10:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

In mail you write:

> Hello again,
>
> Sorry to take so long to get back on this, real life intervened.  I hate =
> it
> when that happens.

Could you please use a fixed pitch font when writing messages? Or at
least shorter lines so they don't get wrapped in such a hard to read
manner? Thanks!

Also, your software is using non-ASCII characters for apostrophe, and
single and double quotes. Another reason to stick to "Terminal" font
when creating messages.

> Economics & Imports
> If transportation costs are the main factor limiting imports why not build
> factories on the world.  Ford an "American" car company has factories in the
> UK, Portugal, Poland etc.

Because labor is cheap there or because there was *already* a market.
And note that they do *not* have them in third world countries.

> This leads me to an aside.  Surely many systems would have to import raw
> materials.  Vland for example, after 10,000 years of interstellar society
> there can't be many minerals left in the system.  Also Terra with hardly any
> colonies must have born the brunt of the Interstellar war's logistics, and
> the Earth is running low on many materials now.  Also I imagine many A
> population worlds would have a hard time feeding themselves, although high
> tech farming is perhaps a more obvious solution.  Continuing this train of
> thought, I ask is bulk shipping of manufactured goods to a system with
> insufficient manufacturing capability really not economically viable if that
> world has the capital to pay for them?.  Again the UK is a good example,
> with little indigenous manufacturing capability the UK's wealth is largely
> derived from trade and financial sources.

We live in an unusual period. Recycling will be far more prevelant in
the future (as it was in the past). Either items will be designed to be
more repairable, or there will be "incentives" to recycle broken items.

Believe me, it's cheaper to recycle than to mine new raw materials. You
both conserve materials *and* avoid the problem of "where do we dump
things *now*?"

Modern dumps are going to be *mined* in less than 100 years.

> Time
> IM(and others)O the Imperium is _very_ stable government with less than 20
> major wars in over 1000 years it's also _very_  peaceful.  This is a good
> reason for the slow rate of technological advancement but not a good reason
> for the diversity.  With such an untaxed society plenty of resources would
> be available for other less urgent projects.  I just can't believe that
> planets in the main cultural regions of the Imperium, on the main
> communication routes and exposed to free trade and more importantly
> advertising, from exterior influences for over a thousand years of relative
> peace, would fail to be within a few TL's of their neighbours.

First of all, there's not much point in advertising to poor, low TL
neigbors. They can neither afford nor use most of your products. 

And just *maybe* the Imperium has learned from the history of Earth and
other worlds. Development driven by *outside* interests is uniformly
*bad* for natives. Developement driven by *local* interests can take
longer, but tends to be more stable and not screw things up as much.
And by doing it themselves they just might come up with something new. 

So while the Imperium wouldn't actively discourage companies from
developing low TL world, it may not give them any encouragement either.
And the companies may know better too.

After all, by your own arguments, the Imperium is going to be taking
the *long* view on things. They'll actually consider things like "what
happens when the deposit is worked out?" They'll plan in *centuries*.
That'll make them rather different than the folks who did most of the
mineral and industrial development on earth.

> The major
> urban areas -- which is after all what the TL applies to* - of Africa and
> Asia, many of which have only been opened to regular contact with western
> technology for relatively short periods of time are not really that far
> behind, 3TL's at the most.
>
> * TNE rules say:
> "The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication
> of the products commonly available on a world in _urban areas or near the
> starport_.  Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from
> large population centres may be one or even two Tech Levels lower."

I suggest digging up some of Norton's old SF. In many of the books she
has the port having the damnedest mixes of high and low tech. Of course
she *does* have an authority that frowns on screwing up native
cultures. But that generally amounts to "no selling the natives
advanced weapons so that they can conquer their neighbors". 

> Culture & Xenophobia
> This IMHO is arguably the most persuasive case for the diversity found.
> Vilani culture was obviously very widespread pre ROM, however many of its
> vital corner stones were suppressed by the Solomani, the caste system for
> example. While I think that this could have been overturned on many worlds
> during the long night I don't think that this reverse would have been
> universal.  Also the 3I culture would seem to be at least Solomani
> based -aristocracy, measurements, language etc- albeit with heavy Vilani
> influences.  However the myriad of different governments within the Imperium
> would have widely different views on the subject and I am utterly
> comfortable with the idea that some of them wish their world to be backward.

You aren't looking at it properly. Nobody wishes to be "backward". They
wish to maintain their "sacred traditions". Especially if said
traditions have them running things, and changes might upset the status
quo.

> At least everyone except the leadership itself anyway ?, in a similar style
> to the TED's in the new era or some African dictatorships today.  However
> would the 3I permit such governments to exist? Realistically quite probably
> as long as they didn't cause too much trouble. This raises a new question
> just how interfering are the 3I authorities.

I don't expect to see a "prime directive". But given the range of
government and law levels allowed, I'd bet that there *are* rules to
prevent "cultural imperialism". No fair trying to impose your
"superior" culture unless you've actually *conquered* the place. 


> Government aid.
> I think the mere presence of 3I installations would have a dramatic effect
> of the world.  Hong Kong is a good comparable RW example.  Also does the 3I
> not have aid programs or any economic aid packages comparable to EU funding
> for the less developed member states?  I think they would.

As per my arguments above, I suspect that aid would be *very* limited.
This prevent the "African Dictator" types from ruining the place while
wasting the aid. 

I expect that aid is more likely to be in the form of scholarships for
those who wish to study off-world (and even more likely *loans* rather
than scholarships). 

"Economic development loans" probably exist, but they'll be judged more
objectively than we tend to. And they *will* be loans. So they'll be
given for things where venture is likely to actually *work*, so that
the loan can be paid back. 

In case you are wondering, I feel this way because *far* too much "aid"
has *worsened* the situation it seeks to correct. Famine relief, for
example. What *should* be done is buy food *locally* so as to encourage
more *local* production. Instead, we dump surplus food and the result
is to *decrease* local food production.

Or consider the Aswan High Dam in Egypt. By stopping the annual floods,
it required the farmers to use fertilizer (before the dam, the floods
deposited a new layer of rich soil every year). And it takes the full
output of the dam to produce the fertilizer. Of course, now it's almost
silted up, and the power generation is dropping off, and it's likely to
fail. But they got their status symbol project!

> Finally, re the input from people responding to my question of what a TTL 8
> world could contribute to a TTL 15 war effort.  I did say "That could not be
> produced cheaper or better elsewhere", terrible English I know but it was
> the crux of my point.  Incidentally I like the idea of taking low tech
> people for the armed forces.  I can see this could be a problem for the more
> technical posts but for the grunts sounds feasible enough.  Also this could
> lead to some very interesting regimental traditions.

As I commented last year (from a rather different background),
something I was reading had a unit commander being asked if one of the
companies could build a sweat lodge onto their winter barracks, since
there wouldn't be much to do (the company in question had a shamanistic
type religion). He agreed and noted as long as they were cooped up in
the barracks there was no reason they shouldn't take their spirits for
a walk now and then. Just be sure to put in for leave time if they were
planning any extended spirit quests.

I can easily see that sort of question (and response) in an *Imperial*
unit with troops from the right sort of planet (and not necessarily a
low tech one). 

And I suspect that a situation much like Norton's "Star Guard" exists.
There may be some limits on how much tech level difference is allowed
between a merc unit and their employers. Or even if there isn't, it may
be a *lot* cheaper for the local "Roman Empire" equivalent to hire
several thousand cavalry a TL or so above their level than to hire TL8
tank squad!

Now *there* is an interesting setup for adventures. The players
organize a low tech merc unit and undercut the high tech boys for
business on the low tech planets. Transport is a bit trickier, but it
should still be doable. Especially given that the low tech troops will
be happy with quarters a lot more cramped than high tech troops will. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:49:53 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Cloaking (was Lanthanum Grid Cloaking)

At 20:26 08/02/1999 -0800, Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net> wrote:

<snip idea for Imperial vchip so Imperial merchants cannot see them>

>This won't work against non Imperial ships, of course, so it would'nt help
>against a Zhodani attack fleet, or probably even a vargr corsair (unless it
>was built with Imperial sensors), so such things would have limited military
>use.  But would there be enough need by the government to keep Eneri the
>merchant capitan from 'seeing' a top secret research station in an outter
>system?

The problem is that only Imperial merchants cannot see these ships
and installations.

So if a pirate gets hold of a supply then it is going to have
a significant advantage - especially if it uses non-Imperial sensors.

Also anyone can spot the IN easily because of this recognisable
feature in their sensors - which they have to be permanently transmitting
in order to disable sensors at a decent distance.
So the new way to spy: Equip an Imperial merchant with a cheap Zhodani
radio receiver. Jump in system. Detect the disabling transmission.
Log the presence of a top secret research station of hidden fleet.
Pretend not to have seen it and do your bit of trading.
Jump to the next world and the beauty is that the Imperials don't
even suspect that you know where they are.

If your top secret research station does not reduce emissions to avoid a
merchant, then any non-Imperial spy ship can see it. If it can hide
from a non-Imperial spy ship, it doesn't need the vchip.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:17:42 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 19:53 08/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>Very true for light.  I said in my post that Lidar was all but unbeatable if
>properly designed.  Radar on the other hand is a lot easier of fool.
>
>There are analog methods of producing the canceling signal without any
>appreaciable lag time (the lag time is figured into the needed amount of
>phaze shift based on band width).  The canceling signal is produced from the
>main signal by propagation delay phaze shifting it .5 wave lenghts.  It is
>also composed of electron/hole pairs not photons.

I think that you'll find that radar acts a lot more like infra-red than
an RF signal down a copper cable.

For a start it has nothing to do with electron/hole pairs. (Well
generating and receiving the signal might, but its propagation does not).

You could probably devise an apparatus using an optical fibre loop to
give a half wavelength shift in a laser beam which would result in a
cancelling signal. The same technology would not help you be invisible to
my torch. Your anti signal has to cope with radar photon that can bounce
off any point on your ship in any direction at any phase.

>Disclaimer:  I do not nor have I ever worked with ECM systems but I have
>designed or helped design various specialty filters over the years that
>acomplish this.

Likewise disclaimer, except that I don't have anything to do with RF filters
either.

>There are also physical shapes that reflect RF signals away from their point
>of origin.  There are also Radar Absorbant Materials including paint.  There
>are also materials that are invisable to radar.

All are true for light and every frequency in the EM spectrum.
The problems of hiding in Traveller are that:

   a	The active sensors are either very powerful, or wideband or both.
	It is difficult to be invisible at all frequencies.
   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.

>RF is very different in practice from light.  For example copper conducts RF
>but not light.

Copper conducts RF, but I think you'll find that it *reflects* radar.

>  A sheet of bright orange plastic is very visable opticly but
>invisable to radar.   What looks very big and solid to the eye can look tiny
>or perfectly clear to radar.
>

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:29:07 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Dual Fusion Turrets and World Generation

I don't know who designed the vehicles and ships for Starmercs, but it
wasn't me or Neil. So I can't comment on why there are 2 fusion guns in a
turret - except that it was that way in High Guard, so that's how it should
be!

Besides, as someone remarked a while ago, "one fusion gun can spoil your
whole day". Maybe that's a good reason to fit two!

As to the world generation debate; one of the biggest headaches while we
were doing BTC was trying to explain the billions of people who seem to
flock to crappy waterless hell-holes, bypassing gardens of verdant wonder.
Having a few worlds like that to expain is good for creativity. But overall,
the system in First In should legislate against them (though allowing it to
happen occasionally) and just accept that te Spinward Marches is a funny old
place. After all, there already are good reasons for all of the
non-correlating worlds in the Marches.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:14:22 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual

>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Tue Feb 09 01:51:47 1999
>Received: from [206.66.87.5] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id 
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>	id EAA21528; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:48:33 -0500 (EST)
>Message-ID: <36BEB38A.28A81C18@concentric.net>
>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:51:06 -0800
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>Organization: Clan MacDude
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual
>References: <19990208000435.2547.qmail@hotmail.com>
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>
>
>
>Michael McKeown wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of a copy for sale? I checked some of the used game
>> sites on the Web to no avail....
>>
>> TIA
>> Mike
>
>How much money do you have?   8-)
>--
>Evyn...
>
>Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999
>
>
>
>
Thanks...all...found a copy!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:51:13 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

>But what got me was the next item. 1.2 billion years ago. That's when
>Earth finally had a *year round* oxygen atmosphere (and soon after a
>permanent ozone layer). Until then we only had an oxygen atmosphere in
>the summer, and not much of one at that.
>
>I'd never encountered that "detail" before. And it got me thinking.
>That's an *awfully* long time in the history of the planet. I wonder
>how many "tainted", "tainted thin", "thin", etc atmospheres are simply
>due to the planet being young? It gives us another possible explanation
>for some of the weird atmospheres.

Would that mean that the northern parts of the planet having oxygenated
atmos while the southern would not as summer winter occur at opposite parts
of the year. Does really the atmosphere mix so slow as to not thouroughly
mix in say quarter of a year? Amazing if true, it could mean travelling
civs who follow the breathable atmosphere patch circling the planet every
year (Wheelworld by Harry Harrison anyone?)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:54:38 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

At 19:25 08/02/1999 -0000, "Trevor Browne" <trevor@browne5.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

<assume much snippage>

>This leads me to an aside.  Surely many systems would have to import raw
>materials.  Vland for example, after 10,000 years of interstellar society
>there cant be many minerals left in the system.  Also Terra with hardly any
>colonies must have born the brunt of the Interstellar wars logistics, and
>the Earth is running low on many materials now.

Once you get into space, there are all those asteroids to mine, plus the other
planets. A high tewch system can probably generate more raw materials than a
low tech one.

Also, improved efficiency and recycling might means that the material impact
on their system isn't so very great. It takes a lot of starships to shift one
medium sized asteroid.

The real limiter now is energy. A TL F world does not have that problem.

>Also I imagine many A
>population worlds would have a hard time feeding themselves, although high
>tech farming is perhaps a more obvious solution.

A few Million ton hydroponics satellites in orbit should help, even if the
planetary
ecosphere is a total mess. (see below)

>Continuing this train of
>thought, I ask is bulk shipping of manufactured goods to a system with
>insufficient manufacturing capability really not economically viable if that
>world has the capital to pay for them?.

The cost is 1kCr/dt.

The "delivery charge" on my car (from a factory <200 miles away) was about
1kCr.
and you should be able to get several per dt, so even low value items
should be
able to shift a few jumps at a profit.

The question is "Is it worth building a factory on this world to produce 1,000
widgets per year when three jumps away our megawidget factory could produce
that many in a tea break for only marginal cost?"

>Again the UK is a good example,
>with little indigenous manufacturing capability the UKs wealth is largely
>derived from trade and financial sources.

Think again. At the key point in the growth of the British Empire, ie
1750-1850
the approximation World Manufacture = UK manufacture held for most "high
tech" goods

Europe and America only caught up towards the end of the last century.

Phil Kitching

===========================================================================

Garden Class
Agricultural Satellite (FF&Sv2, spreadsheet by Andy Akins)		
Designed by Postmark Design Bureau		
		
Statistics		
	Tons:             1,000,000std ( USL Thin Disc )	
	Volume:          14,000,000m3	
	Mass (L/C):       5,575,435t/5,575,332t	
	Dimensions:             562.2m x 562.2m x 56.8m	
	Size:                    12
	Crew:                    59/65
	Science:                 35
	Cost:                18,609.782 MCr
	Maintenance Points: 219,981
	Tech Level:              15
	
Electronics		
	Controls: Holographic, High automation. 10xFibComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Bridge.
	Communications: 2xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW). 
	Sensors: 2xPas. Scanner (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW).
		  4xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 
	Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:1 (1 at 17471MW), Act:1, Neu:1, Grav:-2
	
Performance
    0.1/0.1	Contra-grav (11,900MW)
	0	Power  (/Fus:29,500MW,0.5yr )
	105.4	Fuel
0/88/12/0/0	Accomodations 
	400	Life Sup. (/Ty:EnB,Nm /'St)
	1	G-Comp 
	0 [27]	Armor, 59 Structure
Features
	10000xDecontamination Airlock
	    3xOrdinary Galley (Cap:30)
	    2xElectronic Shop (   6std ea.)
	    4xSickbay         (   8std ea.)
	    2xMachine Shop    (  10std ea.)
	    4xLaboratory      (   8std ea.)
	    2xGym             (   2.5std ea.)

Small Craft
	   10xJetBay          (  20std)
	   10xDockRing        (1000std)

Backups
	Communications: 2xRadio (1,000AU). 10xLaser (1,000AU).
		
Crew Details
	39xEngr. 12xMain. 8xCmnd. 2xStew. 4xMed.

The Garden class satellites have been designed to allow the population of almost
any system with at low cost (as low as 7,377Cr per person per year)
Able to produce food irrespective of the local ecology and with sufficient manoeuvre
to be able to exist even in asteroid fields, the Garden class only needs enough
local shipping to be able to take the food where it is needed.

To this end it can dock up to three 1kdt transports simultaneously.

All of the airlocks have advanced decontamination facilities to reduce
to spread of any unwanted organisims, either on board or off.

The thiry five trained mission specialists are backed up by an impressive suite
of laboratories and computer facilities - sufficient to overcome almost any
agricultural disaster that you might be facing.

Garden class satellites are available in 4 designs according to need:

	Food Type       Food for
	Algae Vats      135,000
	Garden           67,500
	Small Animals    27,000
	Large Animals     9,000

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #107
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 108



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Tech levels (Revisted)
Satalite design question.
Re: G:T vs CT
Altering world profiles
Droyne coyns
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Real Traveller?
Re: Real Traveller?
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Lanthanum >
Re: Time Travel
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' 
"lost" keith brother Supplements
Re: Lanthanum > 
Re: Satalite design question. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:33:43 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

>Quantum physics. It has been proven that chemical propeties can be
>predicted *completely* by working thru the wave equations. It's just
>that it's not *practical* to generate the predictions for anything
>beyond hydrogen.
>

Why is that?  The math to complicated?  If a pc found say element 274, what
would he have to do to calculate what it could be used for?  What would the
computing requirements be for this type of calculation?

>> I'm not looking for any really wierd 'new' properties just a bonding
>> charateristic similar to carbon and/or silicon.  What 'thoretical element'
>> would most likely match carbon in it's chemical bonding habits?
>
>None. Check things out and note the progression in that part of the
>chart. Carbon, silicon, germanium, tin, bismuth, ???. The progression
>of preties is steadily more metallic, even as the melting points go
>down. 
>

Would this apply even with very heavy elements?  If you go far enough could
you end up with a 'new' carbon?  Maby element 4017?  Sorry my chemistry did
not go nearly far enough to predict theoretical elements.

>
>> What would it's 'theoretical' half life be. 
>
>I don't know how they work that out.
>
>> I was thinking 'for this adventure' that this new element would bond
>> like carbon and/or silicon but the new compounds would behave very
>> diferent from either.  CO2 is a gas SiO2 is sand (I think Si is
>> silicon) but the new XO2 might be a liquid for example.
>
>Ain't gonna happen. The increased atomic weight is going to take care
>of *that*. With the exception of "Noble gases" (period VIIIA), it's
>virtually *certain* that all non-carbon-based compounds that are
>gaseous or liquid at normal temps are already known. Again, it's a
>matter of the way the increase in atomic weight affects the properties
>of elenments.
>

OK, what about crystals then.  Could this ultra heavy element have a
crystaleen form?  Like diamoind?

>> The 'new carbon' would be VERY good at replacing carbon and silicon
>> perhaps agressively so with potentially strange effects.  What would
>> happen if the silicon substrate in the party's computer were repalced
>> with this new element that just happen to be a conductive liquid in
>> that compounding...
>
>Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen. because of the way they form
>covalent rather than ionic bonds carbon and silicon are the *hardest*
>to "displace" in a compound. It's the metals and non-metals that pull
>that sort of trick, not the "semi-metals". 
>

Good point.  That I should have remembered.  What if a new element had a new
valence level with say 8, 16, 32, or 64 electrons that tended to form
covelent bonds with large numbers of carbon atoms to form a 'supper
crystal'.  Kind of like a bucky ball diamond.  If the compound were a
simiconductor as well it would be of great value in the electronic industry
or if it were an insolater like silicon it could be used as a very durable
substrate.  

Or perhaps if this super bucky ball crystal could like bucky balls capture
atoms or molecules inside it's own structure it could have some interesting
functions.  
Say if this super crystal could while 'holding' tridium be made to cold fuse
with the side effect that the output energy was released as clean electrical
charge with He and low heat as byproducts.

Or if the 'captured atoms' were plutonium they could be made to fission.
Stable non californiaum pocket nucs.

Sorry fishing for a good Mcguffin for a game I'm planing.  An atomic bomb
'diamond' pendant would be great especially if only a few people (not the
player to start with) knew what it could do.

>> Evil adventure ideas are brewing in my mind.
>
>Alas, you'll have to come up with ones that don't involve *highly*
>improbable properties. Any "interesting" properties of new elements are
>going to be "subtle", such as the wide variety of properties the
>lathanides have. Their properties on the "gross" scale are *very*
>similar. But when you get down to more subtle effects you get weird
>things like the solid electrolyte oxygen fuel batteries.
>
>> Is it posible for an isotope of an element to be more stable than is basic 
>> type?
>
>The most stable *is* the "basic type". 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Thanks for your insight.  Would it be posible that the 'special property' of
one of these new elements could be such that it either greatly increases
Jump performance or that it greatly improved jump fuel efficency?  Or
perhaps one of it's isotopes.  Say for example that a jump drive modified
with this new catalist Jumpium 137 could make a jump with half the H2
normally required.

What if it took Jumpium 139 instead and the characters had only found
Jumpium 137?  What would be necessary to turn it into it isotopic form?  And
where would the PC be able to do this?  Great McGuffin.  You can half your
fuel use (or double your jump distance) if you can break into this secret
imperial base to use the super colider to convert that ore sample into
useable Jumpium.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:33:47 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 12:17 PM 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 19:53 08/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Very true for light.  I said in my post that Lidar was all but unbeatable if
>>properly designed.  Radar on the other hand is a lot easier of fool.
>>
>>There are analog methods of producing the canceling signal without any
>>appreaciable lag time (the lag time is figured into the needed amount of
>>phaze shift based on band width).  The canceling signal is produced from the
>>main signal by propagation delay phaze shifting it .5 wave lenghts.  It is
>>also composed of electron/hole pairs not photons.
>
>I think that you'll find that radar acts a lot more like infra-red than
>an RF signal down a copper cable.
>

No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of light.
Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.  It is a radio signal.  Check
the frequencys of naval radar units.  They are in the MHZ to GHZ range.  Low
frequencey band (LF), high band (HF), very high band (VHF), ultra high band
(UHF), and for close range and targeting radar the milimeter range
(microwave).  I worked on and designed radar and lidar systems.  Radar uses
coax and wave guides.  Photonic systems use fibre optic cable.  They are not
interchangable.  Neather signal passes well (if at all) through the others
conducter.

>For a start it has nothing to do with electron/hole pairs. (Well
>generating and receiving the signal might, but its propagation does not).
>

>You could probably devise an apparatus using an optical fibre loop to
>give a half wavelength shift in a laser beam which would result in a
>cancelling signal. The same technology would not help you be invisible to
>my torch. Your anti signal has to cope with radar photon that can bounce
>off any point on your ship in any direction at any phase.
>

Radar is not photonic.  Light as far as I know can not be canceled with
phaze shift because all it's partical have the same charge (0).  Electronic
signals have charge that can be canceled with their oposite.  The 'oposite'
of an electron is a 'hole' which in effect is the lack of an electron rather
that a partical in its' own right.

Note also that the speed of light varries with what it is passing through.

>>Disclaimer:  I do not nor have I ever worked with ECM systems but I have
>>designed or helped design various specialty filters over the years that
>>acomplish this.
>
>Likewise disclaimer, except that I don't have anything to do with RF filters
>either.
>
>>There are also physical shapes that reflect RF signals away from their point
>>of origin.  There are also Radar Absorbant Materials including paint.  There
>>are also materials that are invisable to radar.
>
>All are true for light and every frequency in the EM spectrum.
>The problems of hiding in Traveller are that:
>
>   a	The active sensors are either very powerful, or wideband or both.

Not at all important.  Power output has no effect on the 'radar image' of
the target.  Only the range of the radar unit.  Also target size that can be
detected is limited to wave lenght.  If the target is less than on wave
length in all dementions facing the radar unit it is invisible.  Note the
the size is effective size.  Not physical size.  An F-111 stealth fighter
looks smaller than a beer can from the front to radar.

Wide banding radar on planetary distances has some ugly drawback and limitions.

>	It is difficult to be invisible at all frequencies.

        invisiblelity is relative.  If your radar image is the size of a
mouse you are not going to be detected except at close range by millimeter
radar.

        True invisiblity is imposible (as far as we know for light).

>   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.

        Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that the
power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is.  We can't build
Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can not do.
Also with a black globe you do not radiate.  I also wind it funny that in
traveller something like the black globe is posible but a simpler system
that just works of IR is not discussed.  Seems to me the black glode could
be 'cut down' in size and price to handle the heat problem nicely.  Perhaps
that IS why the fussion power plants are so effiecent.

>
>>RF is very different in practice from light.  For example copper conducts RF
>>but not light.
>
>Copper conducts RF, but I think you'll find that it *reflects* radar.
>

Not exactly.  Radar is RF.  Copper conducters (or wave guides for high power
applications) carry the radar (RF) signal to the antenna.  It also reflects
the signal back if the target is copper.  This goes back to basic Smitt
charts and SWRs.  Conducters do reflect radar.  In fact if your system is
not properly turned the antenna itself can refect the signal back into the
transmitter at full power and burn out the transmiter.  Cutting the antenna
off a transmiter can cook the finals the first time you try to send,
depending on design and power levels.  Techs use 'dummy load' durring tests
to prevent this.  When I did bussiness band radio the dummy load was a
gallon can of oil.  It got pretty warm pretty quick with the higher output
radios.

OBTraveller. An expensive quick sabatage would be to cut the antenna cables
while the system is not running.  When the operater turns on his active
radar set for the first time after this is done he smokes the finals for a
hefty repair bill. (1-6% minimum) of the cost of the radar unit for
replacement parts (if they are avaiable) plus the labor of course.  It is
posible to test for this condition without blowing the system on many good
systems with built in safegaurds.  Some systems do this automaticly.  Other
only do so if the operater start up the system in a curtain way.  Still
others have no way to test for this or safeties to prevent the overload.
About that black market mill. spec. Radar Unit...

Note that setting up a new RF system takes more that just your average
operaters knowledge.  Even a .1 inch gap in a wave guide and be enough to
trash a high power system with refected power.  or one loose connection.  or
using the wrong coax cable.  or any of several hundred other details that
can bite you in the butt.  I've been bit and seen by boss at the time with
30 years experience get bit.   That black market unit DID come with
operater, maintainence, and INSTALLATION manuals didn't it?  They would all
be very large books (or several books each) and each very different for a
top of the line system.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:48:57 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

At 01:54 PM 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:

Great post on ag. satalite.  Saving this puppy!

>  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
> "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
>

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:49:06 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Satalite design question.

I just noticed a glaring problem.

Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.

What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
adventure and not one deck plan.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:00:07 -0700
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT

>>>>
It's strange, though.  I never had a problem explaining worlds in
canon.  Of course a world with an exotic atmosphere can have a local
TL of 2.  When you are an exporter of bulk gases, why would you try to
manufacture anything more advanced than a gas cylinder?  That's just
one quick off-the-cuff, knowing very little about the planet, but you
get my drift.  Most worlds are exploited to support the Rich, Ind and
Hi-Pops.  Especially on a frontier, a large number of the worlds are
hellholes with a very narrow use.  The changes you are proposing sound
as though they would preclude the occurance of virgin worlds. 
Homogenization is good for milk, but for Traveller?

Sword Worlder
>>>>
Another thing to remember is that by definition, Tech Level is the
level of PRODUCTION capability, and does not necessarily indicate the
technical knowlege of the population.  There are many towns in the US
midwest that would be TL2 or 3 if you look at production capability
- - Joseph.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:19:25 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Altering world profiles

<I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary to
get them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living 
in
exotic atmospheres!>
<What does anyone else think?  More realistic or stick with canon or
something in between?>
<Joe>

If you already have details and an explaination worked out for the world 
in question then don' t change it just because of new rules.  If all you 
have is a set of numbers on a world that are based on canon then I see 
no reason to keep it that way.
Clay

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:21:49 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Droyne coyns

<One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use 
Coyns
in casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start casting 
in
the first place?  Accidental discovery?>
<Joe>

Sounds like the basis of a good mystery adventure to me.
Clay


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:30:21 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

In message <19990208163444.CNRW25839@LOCALNAME>, Charles Prevatte
<prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes
>I'm not looking for any really wierd 'new' properties just a bonding
>charateristic similar to carbon and/or silicon.  What 'thoretical element'
>would most likely match carbon in it's chemical bonding habits? What would
>it's 'theoretical' half life be.  I was thinking 'for this adventure' that
>this new element would bond like carbon and/or silicon but the new compounds
>would behave very diferent from either.  CO2 is a gas SiO2 is sand (I think
>Si is silicon) but the new XO2 might be a liquid for example.  The 'new
>carbon' would be VERY good at replacing carbon and silicon perhaps
>agressively so with potentially strange effects.  What would happen if the
>silicon substrate in the party's computer were repalced with this new
>element that just happen to be a conductive liquid in that compounding...HEE
>HEE!  It would not take much of this to cause a lot of trouble.  What would
>be some posible isotopes of this element x?  What would be their half lives
>and radiographic properties?  HEE!  HEE!

Unfortunately, as I think was pointed out earlier, metallic character
increases down the periodic table - in what used to be group 4 we go
from carbon, to silicon, germanium, tin, and lead - quite definately
metals by the end.  Any "eka-lead" would also be a metal.  Carbon is
unique.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:34:49 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Real Traveller?

<From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT
<Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>  

I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made Traveller 
what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the Traveller 
setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still playing 
"Real Traveller", IMO.
Clay

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:54:25 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Real Traveller?

>From owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Tue Feb 09 08:39:25 1999
>Received: from [206.66.87.5] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id 
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>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Real Traveller?
>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:34:49 PST
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>
><From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: G:T vs CT
><Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
>you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>  
>
>I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made Traveller 
>what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the Traveller 
>setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still playing 
>"Real Traveller", IMO.
>Clay
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I tend to agree too...I'm a GURPS fan and I'm glad to see that they are 
publishing most of the Traveller stuff again...But I think they should 
main true to the canon.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:15:06 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 15:33 09/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

>No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of light.
>Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.

Radar is composed of photons of electromagnetic radiation
just like light but a different frequency.

Your radar does not detect the electrons that it bounces off the
target, it detects the photons that it bounces off the target.

The difference is that the energy levels per photon are sufficiently
low that you can generate them easily by altering the energy state
of a weakly bound electron such as one in the conduction band
of a metal.

Light requires a higher energies, a level that would knock a
conduction band electron out of the metal altogether, so tends to
be emitted by transitions in the more closely bound electrons.

>>   a	The active sensors are either very powerful, or wideband or both.

>Not at all important...
<snip>
>Wide banding radar on planetary distances has some ugly drawback and
limitions.

At this point I referred to active sensors, not just radar
By wideband, I did not mean 1.2GHz and 1.3GHz
I meant 1GHz, 10GHz, 100GHz, 1THz,...

>>   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.

>       Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that the
>power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is. We can't build
>Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can not do.

Any energy generated by the power plant and the people on board is
converted to heat unless it is converted into weapons fire, thrust
or jump drive. Even then, these are not 100% efficient, so there will
be some heat generated.

To really get that IR signature down, you need to turn off the internal
gravity as well as the engines and the weapons.

>Also with a black globe you do not radiate.  I also wind it funny that in
>traveller something like the black globe is posible but a simpler system
>that just works of IR is not discussed.  Seems to me the black glode could
>be 'cut down' in size and price to handle the heat problem nicely.  Perhaps
>that IS why the fussion power plants are so effiecent.

A ship running minimal life support and a 100% black globe will explode
once its capacitors are full.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:50:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum >

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > >Must not of had enough fuel in it...
> >
> > Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter fuel.
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  I think LHyd would make my lighter too cold to handle.
> Can't we just call the regular lighter fluid 'unrefined fuel' and let it go at
> that??
> 

THAT'S why you keep losing them...all those misjumps due to unrefined
fuel...betcha haven't had annual maintenence in a dogs age, either...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:13:55 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Time Travel

[snippage in which I talk about objects only existing in time loops]

  Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:00:22 -0800
  From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
  Subject: Re: Time Travel

[snip]
  Wouldn't this violate Conservation of Matter/Energy?  (he said, playing
  devils advocate).  The rock would have materialized out of no where, lasted
  a while, then vanish.  Where did the matter come from if not the Big Bang?
  Something outside our universe?  A pocket universe perhaps?  Who has those?

  Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:39 PST
  From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  Subject: Re: Time Travel
[snip]
  That'd be a "global causality violation". And tends to have bad
  consequences. 


I do not see many ways in which time travel backwards in time can
happen without either violating conservation of matter/energy or
postulating multiple universes.

You send something back in time.  There is now more, or different,
matter at the time when it arrived.  The total amount of matter/energy
in the universe at that time has changed.

Another thing to consider -- you're passing information into the past.
I know very little about information theory.  If someone here does, is
there an equivalent to conservation of matter/energy which applies to
information here?



  *Local* casuality violations are things such as your future self
  dropping in for a short visit.  As long as you actually *do* make the
  visit, then the consequences aren't nearly as messy (in fact, you may
  not be able to *not* make the visit!).

Your future self comes for a visit.  You change your actions, so that
you go visit yourself, which you would not have done otherwise.  I
claim that this visit has the _same_ problems as the rock which is
picked up, sent back through time, and put down where it was/will be
picked up.


Hmm.  Much of this discussion is pointless because we haven't decided
on the "rules" for time travel.  Are there multiple universes?  Can
you break causality?  Are there limits to directions or distances one
can time travel?  What does it take to actually _do_ it?


	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

Of course, one can also maintain that time travel machines don't
exist.  If they did, eventually some idiot would hop in a time travel
machine, go back, and kill the inventor before it gets finished.  So
all promising time-travel researchers mysteriously die before
finishing their projects.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:19:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

Somewhere I've seen sursat designs (Book6, MT, TNE I think) but tht's
about the only 'design' I've seen. The various design systems are
human-operator centered, so I doubt they'd be much help in designing
efficient satellites.

Also, the sursats were IIRC, something like 1 m^3 or so...not much room
for deck in those plans ;-)

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> I just noticed a glaring problem.
> 
> Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
> 
> What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
> adventure and not one deck plan.
> 
> Charles L.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:36:51 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' 

> ...
> >TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor 
> >race, 99% likely to be *nonhuman*.  A classic example from sci fi:  The 
> >Ullers, from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising', were recruited to work on a 
> >planet with a heavy florine taint because they could handle it better than 
> >humans could, being a silicon-based life form.
> 
>   IIRC, the Ullerans were well-suited to the extremes of their own world 
> (e.g., the polar mines), but are stated as being more susceptible to health
> damage from working on Niflheim. OTOH, they work real cheap and two pairs 
> of arms helps too...

Yeah.  They were cold blooded as well as siliconoid.  And Uller was a Uranoid 
planet, it's axial tilt being uncomfortably close to 90 degrees to the eliptic.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:39:09 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: "lost" keith brother Supplements

Does anyone know if Paul Sanders still has these available? I found a 
cataloge from last year and was interested in getting another one? 

TIA

Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:37:51 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum > 

> > > >Must not of had enough fuel in it...
> > >
> > > Nah, you need hydrogen to achieve jump. Substitute hydrogen for lighter fuel.
> > 
> > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  I think LHyd would make my lighter too cold to handle.
> > Can't we just call the regular lighter fluid 'unrefined fuel' and let it go at
> > that??
> > 
> 
> THAT'S why you keep losing them...all those misjumps due to unrefined
> fuel...betcha haven't had annual maintenence in a dogs age, either...;-)

Damn.  I never considered that.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:45:34 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question. 

> Charles Prevatte wrote:
> > 
> > I just noticed a glaring problem.
> > 
> > Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
> > 
> > What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
> > adventure and not one deck plan.
> > 
> > Charles L.
> 
> Somewhere I've seen sursat designs (Book6, MT, TNE I think) but tht's
> about the only 'design' I've seen. The various design systems are
> human-operator centered, so I doubt they'd be much help in designing
> efficient satellites.
> 
> Also, the sursats were IIRC, something like 1 m^3 or so...not much room
> for deck in those plans ;-)

I've seen plans for 400 ton interdiction sats.  I don't see a comsat as 
*needing* a sophont onboard it.  They'd be pretty much throwaways; when they 
die, you send up a ship's boat or something and lob a new one out the airlock. 
 Same thing with a GPS or a weathersat.  About the only thing you'd need plans 
for would be a weapons platform or a defense platform.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #108
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 109



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Transmit from StutterWarp?
Tech Level
re: Starship Operator's Manual
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements 
Re: Time Travel
Re: Droyne coyns
G:T's world generation system
Lost Keith Supps -- Paul Sanders
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Ship Operator's Manual
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
re: World Generation WAS Dual Fusion Turrets and World Generation
Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Satalite design question. 
Re: Satalite design question.
New Gurps Traveller Modules (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:52:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Transmit from StutterWarp?

Can someone tell me from 2300AD whether you could transmit a light-speed
signal from a ship in stutterwarp?

Also, what is the range of speeds for 2300AD in stutterwarp?  What would an
average 2300AD ship above fighter size speed be?

Could someone also give me an idea of what an average distance between
habitable planets in two different systems might be?

Given this, how long would it take an average (above fighter size) speed
2300AD ship to get to another habitable planet an average interstellar
distance away?

How long would it take a light speed transmission from the origin planet to
get to the destination planet?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:54:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Tech Level

Who can tell me what the Tech Level of a Frontier World in 2300AD is?

How about a world inbetween a frontier world and a core world?

Okay, what if we are talking about 2500AD, now?

- --Clif

P.S.:  You're converting 2300 AD stats to T4

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:05:23 -0500 
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: re: Starship Operator's Manual

	Someone on eBay is selling a lot that includes the Starship
Operator's Manual and several other old GDP items.  The URL is
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=64394510 .  I'll
repeat my question from last week, which is whether GDP ever actually
published "Black Duke" before they went under?

		Alan Hatcher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:04:46 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> I just noticed a glaring problem.
> 
> Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
> 
> What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
> adventure and not one deck plan.
> 
> Charles L.

One of FASA's Adventure Ships volumes had a nice orbital station in it.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:03:16 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements 

> Does anyone know if Paul Sanders still has these available? I found a 
> cataloge from last year and was interested in getting another one? 

They should be coming out shortly, I think.

Paul's on the list someplace...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:13:01 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

At 13:13 09/02/1999 -0500, ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
>
>[snippage in which I talk about objects only existing in time loops]
>
>  Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:00:22 -0800
>  From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
>  Subject: Re: Time Travel
>
>[snip]
>  Wouldn't this violate Conservation of Matter/Energy?  (he said, playing
>  devils advocate).  The rock would have materialized out of no where, lasted
>  a while, then vanish.  Where did the matter come from if not the Big Bang?
>  Something outside our universe?  A pocket universe perhaps?  Who has those?
>
>  Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:39 PST
>  From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>  Subject: Re: Time Travel
>[snip]
>  That'd be a "global causality violation". And tends to have bad
>  consequences. 
>
>
>I do not see many ways in which time travel backwards in time can
>happen without either violating conservation of matter/energy or
>postulating multiple universes.
>
>You send something back in time.  There is now more, or different,
>matter at the time when it arrived.  The total amount of matter/energy
>in the universe at that time has changed.

What you are forgetting is that if you send something back in time,
then that object travelling backwards in time will have existed all
the way back to the beginning of the universe. And starting and
stopping time travel should require the E=mc2 energy of whatever it
is you want to time travel.

The way I have seen it described for an electron is:

To travel back in time, the electron emits two gamma rays, each of
energy E = mc2. The two gamma rays allow the conservation of energy
and momentum.
In order to stop the electron moving backwards in time, it needs to
absorb a pair gamma rays of the correct energy.
Your electron now starts travelling forwards in time again.

IIRC, physics only only says that causality it statistically likely.
What it says about time travel is that mc2 is a heck of a lot of
energy. :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:15:31 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Droyne coyns

> From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
> <One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use 
> Coyns in casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start 
>casting in the first place?  Accidental discovery?>

They need the Coyns *now*. They didn't need them 300,009 years ago. 
Then, after the final war, the surviving Droyne worlds started a long 
recession. Most lost the ability to caste, and probably all would 
have. Then, Grandfather returned 75,000 years ago, and introduced the 
Coyns as an *aid* to guarantee that 20-odd selected worlds would not 
lose the ability to caste.

AFAIK, that is already establishes as <ducking> canon.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:20:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: G:T's world generation system

Hi all.  

Just wanted to put in my vote to keep an old-style planet generation
system.  The main advantage is that you don't screw up 20 years worth of
old Traveller sectors (it's not just the Marches that would have to be
defined as an "oddball", but many other places as well). The main
disadvantage (if you want to call it that) is that people have to come up
with reasons for low populations on apparently attractive worlds and high
pops on apparently unattractive worlds.  If you balance the two, the
advantage comes out way ahead IMO.

There are lots of arguments back and forth, of course, with one side
saying "but these worlds don't make sense!" and the other side saying "use
a little imagination!", but I think what gets lost in this is the
fundamental question of what an "attractive world" is.  

I think the view that everyone will want to flock to garden worlds is
terribly terra-centric.  IMO, if you grew up on a rockball, you will
almost certainly want to live on one.  The so-called "garden worlds" with
their bizarre fluctuations of temperature, lighting, and pressure, their
creepy-crawly _animals_ all over the place and so on are going to seem
just as alien to you as the moon seems to us Terrans.  Moving from your
underground base on Yorbund to a farm on Tarsus is going to involve alot
of changes you will not like!  There will be allergens to deal with that
you've never encountered before, there will be the disturbing feeling of
being under open sky without your vacc suit, there will be stepping in a
Nobble turd, etc., etc., etc.

To put it briefly, people get used to the place they live and won't want
to go elsewhere!  Why do 10 billion people live on a rockball?  Because
they're used to it and they like it.  Why do they live in the middle of a
toxic soup?  Because if they moved away, they'd leave all their friends,
family, and culture. Besides, the colors of the autumnal acid showers are
just SO lovely and they'd get homesick for them in a minute! 

I'm very worried that by making the G:T system tend towards planets that
"make sense" you're going to create a huge universe of boring worlds where
all the garden planets are basically Earth and all the rockballs are
basically Luna.  Dull! 

My .02 Cr worth...
Charles.

- -----
It is a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:23:05 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <holmberg@thuntek.net>
Subject: Lost Keith Supps -- Paul Sanders

Fellow TMLers:

Has anyone heard from Paul?

I wonder what the status is of those supplements.

I paid for mine in late Oct 98.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:30:13 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

At 14:13 08/02/1999 -0500, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Real, low-level stuff, actually twiddling the bits, would have been
>taken over by optimizing compilers long, long ago. Programming in
>'languages' would be viewed as beyond quaint; as if someone came up to
>me today and announced that he'd gotten his Jaquard loom to calculate
>logarithms...or that he'd keyed in a program flipping switches on the
>face of his Altair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>There will be problems that optimized compilers can't fix, and solutions
>that the standard modules won't be quite right for. While situations where
>the programmer has to hack right down to the machine's own level will
>become steadily rarer, these situations will exist - and the dying breed
>of techs who can do this kind of work will command steadily higher
>prices.

We are already getting to the point where machine code will be
too complex to write because you have to work out the possible
code schedules depending of the results of each test.
Alternatively the hardware might be running what we would call a
high level language as its machine code.

The comptuer tech is likely to be very different from today,
but a simple example. As I understand it, Neural nets are programmed
by a feedback loop, not by hacking the machine code any more
than I would program a processor by changing its microcode
(the stuff that runs the machine code).

>A quirk of the rules - someone with Computer-3 is both an excellent
>programmer *and* and excellent hardware repair person. What does it
>say about the SOA computer technology when people see no reason
>to specialize software skills over hardware skills?

That the computer rules were written in 1977 ? :-)

What might be appropriate is Asimov's Robot psychiatrist <sp?>
characters who have to "debug" the robots by talking to them
and understanding their problems, not by printing out their
source code.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:35:33 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

>> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual
encryption
>> schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about
public key
>> encryption.
>
>Nope. The math involved *requires* computers.

No it doesn't.

I'll admit it's tedious to do by hand, and if anyone tried doing it
regulalrly  they'd very quickly design some sort of machine to help
them, like say the Enigma machine, but I did 24-bit RSA encryption by
hand as part of my university training in 1989

The maths is really quite simple, the hard part is finding two large
enough prime numbers, and large prime numbers are definitely findable
by hand, just very tedious again.

Of coruse we only encrypted and decrypted a small two word message.
:-)










>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:46:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
>
>>Quantum physics. It has been proven that chemical propeties can be
>>predicted *completely* by working thru the wave equations. It's just
>>that it's not *practical* to generate the predictions for anything
>>beyond hydrogen.
>
>Why is that?  The math to complicated?  If a pc found say element 274, what
>would he have to do to calculate what it could be used for?  What would the
>computing requirements be for this type of calculation?

  Apparently. IIRC, they already know that the calculations get more complex
as the atoms that you're fiddling with do; for modelling interactions of
designer molecules it will almost never be useful, as you'd have to schedule
the comp model many years before you got to physically testing that combo -
and that's with theoretical photonic super-comps. Or so I'm told.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:42:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Operator's Manual

 "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:
<big Snip>

>Thanks...all...found a copy!

<little Snip>

Perhaps instead of just reposting the whole irrelevant message sections and
headers you could resend the entire Digest version with a one line reply so
we could see your response in context? ;-)

Cutting and pasting is wonderful, especially when you improve the
readability of the post. There were perhaps three relevant sentences in
your post. Please be succinct.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:40:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>An F-111 stealth fighter
>looks smaller than a beer can from the front to radar.

F117 ?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:34:21 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: World Generation WAS Dual Fusion Turrets and World Generation

 "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>Besides, as someone remarked a while ago, "one fusion gun can spoil your
>whole day". Maybe that's a good reason to fit two!

Rob Prior described them as 'anti-personnel weapons' in the last beta of GT
Shipyard ;-)


>As to the world generation debate; one of the biggest headaches while we
>were doing BTC was trying to explain the billions of people who seem to
>flock to crappy waterless hell-holes, bypassing gardens of verdant wonder.
>Having a few worlds like that to expain is good for creativity. But overall,
>the system in First In should legislate against them (though allowing it to
>happen occasionally) and just accept that te Spinward Marches is a funny old
>place. After all, there already are good reasons for all of the
>non-correlating worlds in the Marches.

I disagree. Totally.

<rant>

As GT has used CT data, GT's new world generation system should produce
similar distributions and results to the original LBBs (note I don't say Bk
6 here). Otherwise you drop internal consistancy - if you're not going to
get similar results you may as well use GURPS Space's system for generation.

Unless, of course, you're proposing to invalidate CT material like the
Solomani Rim and the AM material?

I don't mind if the expanded sysgen stuff invalidates the star type, but
blowing the PBG type figures and other data like the UPP distribution is
worse than IG's actions. At least in their case it was a programming error
combined with a lack of proofreading. To set out to produce a non-backwards
UPP compatible system seems to be a way of irritating people no end.

It's a game and I'd rather have the quirks in the UPPs than rewrite the
whole basis for the rest of the published background *and* combine that
with a bloody great handwave for the Marches.

</rant>

I feel better for that. Martin, it wasn't meant to be personal....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:50:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

Bruse, you are better than I in explaining these concepts.  Can you clear
this up in a simple way.

Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons.  It could be
a problem of simantics.  Last I checked 100Mhz FM was not a photonic system
but one based soully on electrical potential.  Are photons somehow part of
FM radio?  Was this a detail my professors left out?  None of my Radio
Amature Handbooks mention it.  Nor did any of my Broadcast Communications
text books.  But then it could be a case of simplification.  Neither goes
into quantum mechanics though.  My text books say the electrons are radiated
from antennas and recieved by antennas.  To be honest it's been so long
sence my theory classes the actual mechanic escapes me.  I am an applied
science person after all.


At 05:15 PM 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 15:33 09/02/1999 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>>No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of light.
>>Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.
>
>Radar is composed of photons of electromagnetic radiation
>just like light but a different frequency.
>
>Your radar does not detect the electrons that it bounces off the
>target, it detects the photons that it bounces off the target.
>
>The difference is that the energy levels per photon are sufficiently
>low that you can generate them easily by altering the energy state
>of a weakly bound electron such as one in the conduction band
>of a metal.
>

It's those weakly bound electrons being radiated that make radio waves.

>Light requires a higher energies, a level that would knock a
>conduction band electron out of the metal altogether, so tends to
>be emitted by transitions in the more closely bound electrons.
>

I do not understand the above paragraph.  Are you saying to make light you
have to strip the inner electrons?

>>>   a	The active sensors are either very powerful, or wideband or both.
>
>>Not at all important...
><snip>
>>Wide banding radar on planetary distances has some ugly drawback and
>limitions.
>
>At this point I referred to active sensors, not just radar
>By wideband, I did not mean 1.2GHz and 1.3GHz
>I meant 1GHz, 10GHz, 100GHz, 1THz,...
>

Why would you search in the above frequency ranges?  These are in the
uplink/downlink bands.  You are looking at a lot of interferience.  You also
have very limited range and a narrow search field.  These are more like
short range targeting radars not spherical search radar.  Your power
requirements is going to be huge!

>>>   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.
>
>>       Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that the
>>power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is. We can't build
>>Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can not do.
>
>Any energy generated by the power plant and the people on board is
>converted to heat unless it is converted into weapons fire, thrust
>or jump drive. Even then, these are not 100% efficient, so there will
>be some heat generated.
>
>To really get that IR signature down, you need to turn off the internal
>gravity as well as the engines and the weapons.
>
>>Also with a black globe you do not radiate.  I also wind it funny that in
>>traveller something like the black globe is posible but a simpler system
>>that just works of IR is not discussed.  Seems to me the black glode could
>>be 'cut down' in size and price to handle the heat problem nicely.  Perhaps
>>that IS why the fussion power plants are so effiecent.
>
>A ship running minimal life support and a 100% black globe will explode
>once its capacitors are full.
>

Not exactly true or false either.  Once you close the loop and are running
everything off of the capacitors you end up with zero gain except for gain
from outside the system like sunlight.  You have X in the capatitors.  You
use that X to power your systems and eventually it returns to the
capacitors.  Closed loop.  Total system power = total power.  Your time
'under black globe' would be dependant on where you are in the system.  If
at the orbit of pluto you could be there for centuries before the boom if
you have the capacitors of a J6 drive plus your weapons capacitors.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:00:12 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question. 

At 01:45 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> > 
>> > I just noticed a glaring problem.
>> > 
>> > Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
>> > 
>> > What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
>> > adventure and not one deck plan.
>> > 
>> > Charles L.
>> 
>> Somewhere I've seen sursat designs (Book6, MT, TNE I think) but tht's
>> about the only 'design' I've seen. The various design systems are
>> human-operator centered, so I doubt they'd be much help in designing
>> efficient satellites.
>> 
>> Also, the sursats were IIRC, something like 1 m^3 or so...not much room
>> for deck in those plans ;-)
>
>I've seen plans for 400 ton interdiction sats.  I don't see a comsat as 
>*needing* a sophont onboard it.  They'd be pretty much throwaways; when they 
>die, you send up a ship's boat or something and lob a new one out the airlock. 
> Same thing with a GPS or a weathersat.  About the only thing you'd need plans 
>for would be a weapons platform or a defense platform.
>

True, I ment satalite factories and otehr large satalite.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:00:14 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

At 11:04 AM 2/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> 
>> I just noticed a glaring problem.
>> 
>> Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
>> 
>> What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places for
>> adventure and not one deck plan.
>> 
>> Charles L.
>
>One of FASA's Adventure Ships volumes had a nice orbital station in it.
>

I'll check at my hobby shop.  They have a lot of older stuff.  They also
sell used books that are hard to find.

Thanks for the info.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:46:35 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: New Gurps Traveller Modules (Long)

Here are some extra Bridge Modules for Tech Levels 8, 9 and 11. Cockpit
bridges will be posted in the next couple of days...

Oh, feedback is welcome and appreciated!


TL8 BASIC BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #  TL  Weight  Volume  Cost      Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 39             1  8   13500   270     5000000   -1125  45000 miles
PESA, scan 38             1  8   12000   240     11200000  0      30000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1  8   1728    612     21600     0      432 sf S/Area
Extreme Range Radio       2  8   2000    40      12000     -0.8   100000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  1  8   10000   200     75000     -4     200000 miles
Flight Recorder           1  8   20      1       400       0
IFF Transponder           2  8   10      0.2     2000      0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2  8   30      0.6     3000      0
INS                       1  8   20      0.4     25000     0
Precision Nav Instruments 2  7+  40      0.8     10000     0
Terminals                 5  8   200     10      5000      0
Full Fire Supression      1  7+  200     4       5000      0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    5  -   200     600     500 0
C5 Mainframe Computers    3  8   1500    30      600000    -3
Power for above (Fiss)    1  8   4532    272.1   113300    1133

        Totals                   45980   1771.1  17072800  0.2
        Statistics : 22.99 tons  2.5 spaces  17.0728 MCr


TL9 BASIC BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #  TL  Weight  Volume  Cost      Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 40             1  9   10500   210     3750000   -1750  70000 miles
PESA, scan 38             1  9   6000    120     5600000   0      30000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1  9   972     396     16200     0      324 sf S/Area
Radscanner, scan 30       1  9   7500    150     2000000   0      1500 miles
Extreme Range Radio       2  9   1000    20      6000      -0.8   1000000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  1  9   5000    100     37500     -4     2000000 miles
Medium Range Meson Comm   1  9   0       0       0         0
Flight Recorder           1  9   20      1       400       0
IFF Transponder           2  9   10      0.2     2000      0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2  9   30      0.6     3000      0
INS                       1  9   10      0.2     12500     0
Precision Nav Instruments 2  7+  40      0.8     10000     0
Terminals                 5  9   100     5       2500      0
Full Fire Supression      1  7+  200     4       5000      0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    5  -   200     600     500 0
C6 Mainframe Computers    3  9   750     15      300000    -3
Power for above (Fus)     1  9   1758    105.6   351600    1758

        Totals                   34090   1398.4  12097200  0.2
        Statistics : 17.05 tons  2.5 spaces  12.0972 MCr



TL11 BASIC BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #  TL  Weight   Volume Cost    Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 42             1   11  5625    112.5  1937500 -3750  150000 miles
PESA, scan 38             1   11  1500    30     1400000 0      30000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1   11  277.5   171    9250    0      185 sf S/Area
Radscanner, scan 33       1   11  1125    22.5   250000  0      4500 miles
Extreme Range Radio       2   11  500     10     3000    -0.8   5000000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  1   11  2500    50     18750   -4     10000000 miles
Medium Range Meson Comm   1   11  30      0.6    20000   -1     10000 miles
Flight Recorder           1   11  20      1      400 0
IFF Transponder           2   11  10      0.2    2000    0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2   11  30      0.6    3000    0
INS                       1   11  10      0.2    12500   0
Precision Nav Instruments 2   7+  40      0.8    10000   0
Terminals                 5   11  50      2.5    1250    0
Full Fire Supression      1   7+  200     4      5000    0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    5   -   200     600    500 0
C8 Mainframe Computers    3   11  375     7.5    150000  -3
Power for above (Fus)     1   11  752     45.3   93975   3759

        Totals                    13244.5 916.2  3917125 0.2
        Statistics :    6.62 tons   2.5 spaces  3.917125 MCr


TL8 COMMAND BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #   TL  Weight  Volume Cost    Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 40             1   8   21000   420   7500000  -1750  70000 miles
PESA, scan 39             1   8   18000   360   16000000 0      45000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1   8   2296    936   28700    0      574 sf S/Area
Extreme Range Radio       10  8   10000   200   60000    -4     100000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  2   8   20000   400   150000   -8     200000 miles
Flight Recorder           2   8   40      2     800      0
IFF Transponder           2   8   10      0.2   2000     0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2   8   30      0.6   3000     0
INS                       1   8   20      0.4   25000    0
Precision Nav Instruments 2   7+  40      0.8   10000    0
Terminals                 10  8   400     20    10000    0
Full Fire Supression      1   7+  200     4     5000     0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    10  -   400     1200  1000     0
C6 Macroframe Computers   3   8   12000   240   6000000  -30
Power for above (Fiss)    1   8   7168    430.2 179200   1792

        Totals                    91604   3434.2 29974700 0
        Statistics :    45.8 tons   7 spaces    29.9747 MCr



TL9 COMMAND BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #  TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 41             1   9   15000   300    5250000 -2500  100000 miles
PESA, scan 39             1   9   9000    180    8000000 0      45000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1   9   1245    576    20750   0      415 sf S/Area
Radscanner, scan 30       1   9   7500    150    2000000 0      1500 miles
Extreme Range Radio       10  9   5000    100    30000   -4     1000000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  2   9   10000   200    75000   -8     2000000 miles
Flight Recorder           2   9   40      2      800     0
IFF Transponder           2   9   10      0.2    2000    0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2   9   30      0.6    3000    0
INS                       1   9   10      0.2    12500   0
Precision Nav Instruments 2   7+  40      0.8    10000   0
Terminals                 10  9   200     10     5000    0
Full Fire Supression      1   7+  200     4      5000    0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    10  -   400     1200   1000    0
C7 Macroframe Computers   3   9   6000    120    3000000 -30
Power for above (Fus)     1   9   2542    152.7  508400  2542

        Totals                    57217   2516.5 18923450  0
        Statistics :    28.61 tons  5 spaces    18.92345 MCr



TL11 COMMAND BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #   TL  Weight  Volume Cost   Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 43             1   11  7500    150   2562500 -5000   200000 miles
PESA, scan 40             1   11  3500    70    3000000 0       70000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1   11  370.5   264   12350   0       247 sf S/Area
Radscanner, scan 35       1   11  2500    50    525000  0       10000 miles
Extreme Range Radio       10  11  2500    50    15000   -4      5000000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  2   11  5000    100   37500   -8      10000000 miles
Very Long Range Meson Comm 1  11  3000    60    200000  -10     1000000 miles
Flight Recorder           2   11  40      2     800     0
IFF Transponder           2   11  10      0.2   2000    0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2   11  30      0.6   3000    0
INS                       1   11  10      0.2   12500   0
Precision Nav Instruments 2   7+  40      0.8   10000   0
Terminals                 10  11  100     5     2500    0
Full Fire Supression      1   7+  200     4     5000    0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    10  -   400     1200  1000    0
C9 Macroframe Computers   3   11  3000    60    1500000 -30
Power for above (Fus)     1   11  1011    60.9  126300  5052

        Totals                    29211.5 1857.7 8015450 0
        Statistics :    14.61 tons  5 spaces    8.01545 MCr


TL13 COMMAND BRIDGE MODULE:
Component                 #   TL  Weight  Volume Cost    Power
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AESA, scan 44             1   13  11250   225   3812500 -7500   300000 miles
PESA, scan 42             1   13  7500    150   6200000 0       150000 miles

Pop Turret for above      1   13  352     450   17600   0       352 sf S/Area
Radscanner, scan 41       1   13  25000   500   5025000 0       100000 miles
Extreme Range Radio       10  13  2500    50    15000   -4      5000000 miles
Extreme Range Laser Comm  2   13  5000    100   37500   -8      10000000 miles
Very Long Range Meson Comm 1  13  3000    60    200000  -10     1000000 miles
Flight Recorder           2   13  40      2     800     0
IFF Transponder           2   13  10      0.2   2000    0
Adv Radar/Ladar Det       2   13  30      0.6   3000    0
INS                       1   13  10      0.2   12500   0
Precision Nav Instruments 2   7+  40      0.8   10000   0
Terminals                 10  13  100     5     2500    0
Full Fire Supression      1   7+  200     4     5000    0
Roomy Bridge Crewstats    10  -   400     1200  1000    0
C11 Macroframe Computers  3   13  3000    60    1500000 -30
Power for above (Fus)     1   11  1511    90.9  188800  7552

        Totals                    59943   2523.7 17033200 0
        Statistics :    29.97 tons  5 spaces    17.0332 MCr


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #109
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 110



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

More GT Modules (Long)
GT: Fleet Courier (for 101st Batron)
GT : Akari class Scout - 101st Batron
GT : Kishig Class Fleet Ordinance Transport - 101st Batron
GT : Dromedary Class Fuel Tanker - 101st Batron
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking 
re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Real Traveller?
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking 
site update
locker items
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:49:07 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: More GT Modules (Long)

Here are more modules to expand those available in GT. Extensive sensor
modules, electronic warfare, and engineering modules follow.

As always feedback is welcome.

- -----8<-------------------------------------------------------------
Engineering Modules:
====================

TL11 Engineering Module has same stats as TL12 module.

TL9 Engineering Module:
Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Airlock (/ person)      6   9   3000    300     6000    0   6 person capacity
Full Fire Supression    1   7+  200     4       5000    0
Armored Passage Tube    1   9   2000    40      3000    0
Startup Fusion (+core)  1   9   20000   1200    5000000 0   800 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          25200   1544    5014000 0
Statistics: 12.6 tons   4 spaces    5.014 MCr

TL8 Engineering Module:
Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Airlock (/ person)      6   8   3000    300     6000    0   6 person capacity
Full Fire Supression    1   7+  200     4       5000    0
Armored Passage Tube    1   8   2000    40      3000    0
Startup Fission(+core)  1   8   4000    240     420000  0   160 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          9200    584     434000  0
Statistics: 4.6 tons    2 spaces    0.434 MCr

TL7 Engineering Module:
Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Airlock (/ person)      6   7   3000    300     6000    0   6 person capacity
Full Fire Supression    1   7+  200     4       5000    0
Armored Passage Tube    1   7   2000    40      3000    0
Startup Fission(+core)  1   7   20000   1200    4400000 0   800 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          25200   1544    4414000 0
Statistics: 12.6 tons   4 spaces    4.414 MCr


Design Stats for EW Suite Modules:
==================================

Each module has one area jammer and one deceptive jammer at the
listed rating, and one blip enhancer. All modules have built in
fusion (fission at TL8) power.

TL   Weight(tons) Spaces   Cost(MCr)   Jammer Ratings
- -----------------------------------------------------
14   7.575        1.5      6.138           20
13   3.423        0.5      2.767           18
12   1.535        0.5      1.236           16
11   0.78         0.5      0.623           14
10   0.53         0.5      0.573           12
9    0.846        0.5      0.492           10
8    2.465        1        0.873            8


Design Stats for Active Sensor Modules:
=======================================

All AESA sensors are installed in their own pop turret, and
are include fusion power components:

TL   Weight(tons) Spaces   Cost(MCr)  Scan/Range
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
10   121.85       13       77.09235   50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
10   81.41        8.5      51.44545   49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
10   61.17        6.5      38.62065   48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
10   40.89        4.5      25.7944    47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
10   28.7         3        18.0975    46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
10   18.53        2        11.6823    45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
10   12.4         1.5      7.8324     44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
10   8.31         1        5.2652     43, 200000 miles (321800 km)
11+  64.34        7.5      39.49565   50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
11+  43.17        5        26.3569    49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
11+  32.43        4        19.78665   48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
11+  21.67        2.5      13.21545   47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
11+  15.21        2        9.27205    46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
11+  9.81         1.5      5.98515    45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
11+  6.57         1        4.01255    44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
11+  4.4          0.5      2.69705    43, 200000 miles (321800 km)


Design Stats for Passive Sensor Modules:
========================================

All PESA sensors are installed in their own pop turret, and
use negligable power:

TL   Weight(tons) Spaces  Cost(MCr)  Scan/Range
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
10   353.94       34      560.5968   52, 7000000 miles (11263000 km)
10   227.94       22      360.5466   51, 4500000 miles (7240500 km)
10   152.24       14.5    240.51185  50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
10   101.71       10      160.48535  49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
10   76.41        7.5     120.47045  48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
10   51.08        5       80.4538    47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
10   35.85        3.5     56.4424    46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
10   23.14        2.5     36.4316    45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
10   15.49        1.5     24.4241    44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
10   10.37        1       16.4184    43, 200000 miles (321800 km)
11+  176.86       17      280.32395  52, 7000000 miles (11263000 km)
11+  113.89       11      180.29235  51, 4500000 miles (7240500 km)
11+  76.06        7.5     120.27045  50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
11+  50.81        5       80.2538    49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
11+  38.17        4       60.2444    48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
11+  25.51        2.5     40.2339    47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
11+  17.91        2       28.2267    46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
11+  11.55        1.5     18.2199    45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
11+  7.73         1       12.2152    44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
11+  5.18         0.5     8.2116     43, 200000 miles (321800 km)


Design Stats for Radscanner Modules:
====================================

All radscanner modules use negligble power.

TL   Weight(tons) Spaces  Cost(MCr)  Scan/Range
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
11+  375          30      150.025    50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
10   1875         150     750.125    50, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)
11+  250          20      100.025    49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
10   1250         100     500.125    49, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)
11+  187.5        15      75.025     48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
10   937.5        75      375.125    48, 1500000 miles (2413500 km)
11+  125          10      50.025     47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
10   625          50      250.125    47, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)
11+  87.5         7       35.025     46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
10   437.5        35      175.125    46, 700000 miles (1126300 km)
11+  56.25        4.5     22.525     45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
10   281.25       22.5    112.625    45, 450000 miles (724050 km)
11+  37.5         3       15.025     44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
10   187.5        15      75.125     44, 300000 miles (482700 km)
11+  25           2       10.025     43, 200000 miles (321800 km)
10   125          10      50.125     43, 200000 miles (321800 km)
11+  18.75        1.5     7.525      42, 150000 miles (241350 km)
10   93.75        7.5     37.625     42, 150000 miles (241350 km)
11+  12.5         1       5.025      41, 100000 miles (160900 km)
10   62.5         5       25.125     41, 100000 miles (160900 km)
11+  8.75         1       3.525      40, 70000 miles (112630 km)
10   43.75        3.5     17.625     40, 70000 miles (112630 km)
11+  5.63         0.5     2.275      39, 45000 miles (72405 km)
10   28.13        2.5     11.375     39, 45000 miles (72405 km)
11+  3.75         0.5     1.525      38, 30000 miles (48270 km)
10   18.75        1.5     7.625      38, 30000 miles (48270 km)
11+  2.5          0.5     1.025      37, 20000 miles (32180 km)
10   12.5         1       5.125      37, 20000 miles (32180 km)


Energy Storage Modules:
=======================

Type                TL  # spaces   Weight  Cost(MCr) Power   Energy
Storage
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor/Battery   8   1          12.5    2.5       0       63  MWH
Capacitor/Battery   9   1          12.5    2.5       0       94  MWH
Capacitor/Battery   10  1          12.5    2.5       0       124 MWH
Capacitor/Battery   11  1          12.5    2.5       0       158 MWH
Capacitor/Battery   12  1          12.5    2.5       0       188 MWH
Capacitor/Battery   13  1          12.5    2.5       0       217 MWH
Capacitor/Battery   14  1          12.5    2.5       0       248 MWH
Capacitor/Battery   15  1          12.5    2.5       0       278 MWH


Workshop Module
===============
Component           #   TL  Weight  Volume   Cost    Power(kW)
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Complete Workshop   1   5+  30000   1200     60000   1 (neglible)
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Totals                      30000   1200     60000   0
Stats: 15 tons    3 spaces    0.06 MCr (Power drawn from rest of ship)

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:53:26 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT: Fleet Courier (for 101st Batron)

Here's the 1st of my designs for the 101st Batron. I thought I'd tackle
the Auxiliary Division first, so I'll follow this post with the tanker
and ordinance transport designs.

One thing to note. I am using custom hulls from Gurps Vehicles, and for
military designs I have used heavy frame strength most of the time
(doubles hull HP, but adds to mass and cost). This is legal, according
to the sidebar on p155 of GT, and makes military vessels a little more
resilient than an equivalent civilian vessel.

- ------8<----------------------------------

400ton Imperial Navy class Fleet Courier, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation, 1 x Commo/Sensor, 1 x Engineering,
 4 x Gunnery
 Total Crew = 8

Specifications:
 400ton Good Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 100, PD 4, +9 size mod, 207.264 MCr, 61560 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions Cloaking,
 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 34 Maneuver,
 28 Powered Jump, 240 Jump Fuel (40 for Jump 1), 3 Fuel Processor
 (10 hrs to process), 4 Staterooms (4 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle
 Passage), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 45 (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner
 scan 38 (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5
 spaces, 0 MW), 1 x 0.5 tons capacity Space Dock (Air/Raft), 4 turrets -
 2 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 2 Triple Missile Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 6, EMass 863.45 tons, LMass 865.45 tons (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 2 tons), EMass 551.45 tons (less fuel), LMass 553.45
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 2540 mph, Acceleration - 3.94G Empty,
 3.93G Loaded, 6.17G Empty (less Fuel), 6.14G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 11.45 tons, 1.5 spaces, 18.2199 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 45 in space, 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 3.75 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.525 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 38 , 30000 miles (48270 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>
- -==(UDIC)==- Manik Dragon
Kali Reg # : 023771

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:59:44 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Akari class Scout - 101st Batron

This is a recon scout/picket design for the 101st Batron.

Comments welcome!

- ---------8<--------------------------------------------
200ton Imperial Navy Akari class Scout, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 6 x Commo/Sensor,
 1 x Engineering, 2 x Gunnery, 1 x Medical
 Total Crew = 13

Specifications:
 200ton Fair Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 100, PD 4, +8 size mod, 200.363 MCr, 38781 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions Cloaking,
 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 36 Maneuver,
 10 Powered Jump, 80 Jump Fuel (20 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor
 (10 hrs to process), 7 Staterooms (7 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle
 Passage), 3 Low Berth (12 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay,
 5 Cargo, 1 TL 12  AESA scan 46 (2 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan
 49 (5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 45 (4.5 spaces, 0 MW),
 1 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 x 0.5 tons
 capacity Space Dock (Air/Raft), 2 turrets - 1 Triple 405Mj Laser
 Turret, 1 Triple Sandcaster Turret

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 556.01 tons, LMass 583.01 tons, EMass 452.01 tons
 (less fuel), LMass 479.01 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 2727 mph,
 Acceleration - 6.47G Empty, 6.17G Loaded, 7.96G Empty (less Fuel),
 7.52G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

The Akari class scout is used exclusively by the Imperial Navy and
Imperial Interstellar Scout Service as a passive scout useful for
deep penetration, recon and scouting missions. Apart from the
standard sensor suite built into the ships bridge, it carries a
powerful and expensive sensor and electronic warfare suite,
typically found on ships MUCH larger.

The Akari typically jumps into the outer system, then relies on its
stealth and greater sensor range to remain hidden.  From this vantage,
it can perform reconnaissance missions without being discovered.
Powerful active sensors and jammers, along with long legs (6G plus)
will allow the Akari to avoid confrontation even it is discovered or
observed.

Over 300 Akari class scouts have been constructed, and many are
assigned to trouble spots of the Imperium, such as the Spinward
Marches and the Solomani Rim.  They are not available for sale to
civilians, and any civilians caught in the posession of these ships
would have some questions to answer (if they were caught...)


 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 15.1 tons, 2 spaces, 9.27205 MCr
 Scan 46 in space, 700000 miles (1126300 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 50.54 tons, 5 spaces, 80.2538 MCr
 Scan 49 in space, 2000000 miles (3218000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 56.25 tons, 4.5 spaces, 22.525 MCr
 Scan 45, 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 TL 12 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:02:00 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Kishig Class Fleet Ordinance Transport - 101st Batron

Here's the final vessel for the Aux division of the 101st Batron.

Let the inspection begin!

- -----------------8<--------------------------------------------------
100000ton Imperial Navy Kishig class Fleet Ordinance Transport, Tech
Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 2 x Helm, 2 x Navigation, 9 x Commo/Sensor, 1 x Screens,
 135 x Engineering, 250 x Gunnery, 1 x Stewards, 4 x Medical,
 2 x Computer, 50 x Flight
 Total Crew = 457

Specifications:
 100000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Advanced Metal Armor, DR 5000, PD 4, +14 size mod, 29125.67 MCr,
 1221488 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 2 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 200 Utility,
 8000 Maneuver, 5000 Powered Jump, 0 Unpowered Jump, 40000 Jump Fuel
 (10000 for Jump 1), 200 Fuel Processor (25 hrs to process), 255
 Staterooms (250 Crew, 5 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 10 Low Berth
 (40 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 3 Sickbay, 2 Lab, 8 Nuclear Damper (20
 miles), 39529 Cargo, 107 Power Plant (4280 MW output, 20 MW excess),
 60 Unpowered ContraGrav (480000 tons CG lift, 960 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA
 scan 47 (2.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5
 spaces, 0 MW), 10 Brig(s), 20 Complete Workshop(s), 25 x 100 tons
 capacity Space Dock (100std Shuttle or smaller), 5 x 50 tons capacity
 Space Dock (50std Cutter or smaller), 250 turrets - 100 Triple 405Mj
 Laser Turrets, 100 Triple Sandcaster Turrets, 50 Double Fusion Gun
 Turrets (3300 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 190890.01 tons, LMass 396785.01 tons (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 8250 tons), EMass 138890.01 tons (less fuel),
 LMass 344785.01 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph, Acceleration -
 4.19G Empty, 2.02G Loaded, 5.76G Empty (less Fuel), 2.32G Loaded
 (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 Fusion Gun : 4200 (6758 km) 1/2 range, 12600 (20273 km) max range,
           6d x 500 damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 25.34 tons, 2.5 spaces, 40.2339 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 47 in space, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Unpowered Contragravity Module:
 1 space, 4 tons, 0.8 MCr, 16 MW, 8000 tons lift


The Kishig class Fleet Ordinance Transport carries supplies and
ordinance
sufficient to allow continued operations for attached units in enemy
teritory, or when access to resupply via a naval base is not practical.
It is a venerable class, and fulfils a critical aspect of the Imperial
Navy's fleet operations.

The Kishig can be attached as part of the Auxiliary Division of a Batron
or CruRon, or it may form part of its own supply squadron.

Gunnery crew also double as cargo movers when required.

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:57:41 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Dromedary Class Fuel Tanker - 101st Batron

Here's the Fuel tanker I've designed for the 101st Batron.

- ----------------8<-----------------------------------
300000ton Imperial Navy Dromedary class Fleet Tanker, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 2 x Helm, 2 x Navigation, 9 x Commo/Sensor, 1 x Screens,
 325 x Engineering, 40 x Gunnery, 1 x Stewards, 3 x Medical,
 2 x Computer, 100 x Flight
 Total Crew = 486

Specifications:
 300000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Advanced Metal Armor, DR 5000, PD 4, +15 size mod, 100462.056 MCr,
 2540798 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 2 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 600 Utility,
 17413 Maneuver, 15000 Powered Jump, 240000 Jump Fuel (30000 for
 Jump 1), 3000 Fuel Processor (10 hrs to process), 220 Staterooms
 (215 Crew, 5 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 20 Low Berth (80
 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 2 Sickbay, 8 Nuclear Damper (20 miles),
 1500 Cargo, 36 Power Plant (1440 MW output, 32 MW excess), 88
 Unpowered ContraGrav (704000 tons CG lift, 1408 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA
 scan 47 (2.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5
 spaces, 0 MW), 10 Brig(s), 3 Complete Workshop(s), 50 x 400 tons
 capacity Vehicle Bay (400std Fuel Shuttle), 2 x 50 tons capacity
 Space Dock (50std Cutter or smaller), 200 turrets - 100 Triple 405Mj
 Laser Turrets, 100 Triple Sandcaster Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 626512.54 tons, LMass 694312.54 tons (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 60300 tons), EMass 314512.54 tons (less fuel), LMass
 382312.54 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph, Acceleration - 2.78G
 Empty, 2.51G Loaded, 5.54G Empty (less Fuel), 4.55G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 25.34 tons, 2.5 spaces, 40.2339 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 47 in space, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop Module:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Unpowered Contragravity Module:
 1 space, 4 tons, 0.8 MCr, 16 MW, 8000 tons lift


Named after the Terran animal reknowned for it's ability to hold
water, this massive Fuel Tender is a common sight in Imperial Navy
task groups and squadrons, providing fuel gathering and refining
services to accompanying vessels.  It has the legs to keep up with
other ships in it's group and carries enough fuel onboard, and enough
fuel shuttles, to refuel itself and it's "children" as quickly as
possible.  A massive 88% of it's entire volume is given over to fuel
tanks, processing equipment and fuel shuttles.  It is always heavily
escorted, and never left to fend for itself, even though it has plenty
of laser and sandcaster turrets for its own defence.

This particular class of fuel tender is relatively new, and the first
vessel of the class, Camel, was commissioned in 1086.  Since then,
over 250 ships have entered IN service, named after similar life forms
found within the Imperium.

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:18:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking 

Charles Prevatte wrote:
> 
> Bruse, you are better than I in explaining these concepts.  Can you clear
> this up in a simple way.
> 
> Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons.  It could be
> a problem of simantics.  Last I checked 100Mhz FM was not a photonic system
> but one based soully on electrical potential.  Are photons somehow part of
> FM radio?  Was this a detail my professors left out? 

Different Bruce here, but this I can handle...FM Radio and the green
light coming off that neon sign there are simply different frequencies
along the electromagnetic spectrum. A photon is a unit of
electromagnetic energy. When your radio antenna picks up a signal it is
doing so because of the interaction between the electromagnetic
properties of radio wavelength photons and your recieving circuit. When
your eye detects a rose, it is doing so because of the interaction
between the electromagnetic properties of red wavelength photons and
your recieiving circuit, which is electrochemical in nature rather than
completely electronic as in the radio.

That light was a part of the electromagnetic spectrum, along with radio
waves was the conceptual leap that revolutionized physics in the late
19th century, and laid the framework for Einsteins Theory of Relativity,
just as the conclusion that electrons also displayed wavelike and
particle like activity (deBroglie? Heisenberg? ) that usered in quantum
physics, and the understanding of _how_ an appropriately excited
electron could cause electromagnetic radiation to be errr...radiated.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:23:54 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

>Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons.  It could be
>a problem of simantics.  Last I checked 100Mhz FM was not a photonic system
>but one based soully on electrical potential.  Are photons somehow part of
>FM radio?  Was this a detail my professors left out?  None of my Radio
>Amature Handbooks mention it.  Nor did any of my Broadcast Communications
>text books.  But then it could be a case of simplification.  Neither goes
>into quantum mechanics though.  My text books say the electrons are radiated
>from antennas and recieved by antennas.  To be honest it's been so long
>sence my theory classes the actual mechanic escapes me.  I am an applied
>science person after all.

Radio is technically photons. However, that's not a very useful way of 
looking at them.

While one might mentally picture photons as a stream of little billiard balls,
that's not always true. Photons are really tiny little packets of 
electromagnetic energy -as a photon goes by you see an electric and magnetic
field wobble back and forth very briefly. It wobbles at a characteristic 
frequency depending on the kind of radiation - or you can see it as having
a characteristic wavelength. 

For photons with very short wavelengths - like visible light - the wobbly-waveness
isn't very relevant; the wavelenth is small compared to most real-world objects
so you just treat them as billiard balls. For long wavelengths like radio,
though, the waveness becomes crucial to understanding them, and there are so
many individual photons involved that they all sort of add together - so you
can just see it as a continuous sea of electromagnetic fields; if you stand
in one place as radio waves are beamed at you you can just treat it as a 
continuous electric field going up and down and up and down at the 
frequency of the radio signal.

This is the core of quantum mechanics - things are both particles and waves
at the same time.

Radio signals certainly don't radiate electrons. Instead, electrons move up
and down inside the broadcasting antenna. This makes an electric and magnetic
field that wobbles up and down and travels out from the antenna - kind of 
like if you pushed a piece of wood up and down in the water, waves wou
travel out. In the recieving antenna, the electric field makes the electrons
in the reciever again move up and down in synch with the ones in the 
transmitter - kind of like the water wave coming to a second piece of wood and
making it float up and down. The *effects* you see are on the pieces of wood,
but it's not as if the pieces of wood travel from one place to another.
Similarly the effects you see in radio are on the electrons, but electrons
aren't travelling.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:43:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Real Traveller?

Sorry, Clay.  That was a sarcastic remark.  For the record I have and
like the GT stuff so far.  I have no use for the rules, but the
setting info is just too much fun. :-)


- ---Clay Taylor <baalan@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: G:T vs CT
> <Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
> you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>  
> 
> I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made
Traveller 
> what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the
Traveller 
> setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still
playing 
> "Real Traveller", IMO.

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
List your Traveller cargoes for sale or wanted
on the "Subsidized Merchant" page - 
http://surf.to/traveller-trader 


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:53:39 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking 

At 01:18 PM 2/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> 
>> Bruse, you are better than I in explaining these concepts.  Can you clear
>> this up in a simple way.
>> 
>> Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons.  It could be
>> a problem of simantics.  Last I checked 100Mhz FM was not a photonic system
>> but one based soully on electrical potential.  Are photons somehow part of
>> FM radio?  Was this a detail my professors left out? 
>
>Different Bruce here, but this I can handle...FM Radio and the green
>light coming off that neon sign there are simply different frequencies
>along the electromagnetic spectrum. A photon is a unit of
>electromagnetic energy. When your radio antenna picks up a signal it is
>doing so because of the interaction between the electromagnetic
>properties of radio wavelength photons and your recieving circuit. When
>your eye detects a rose, it is doing so because of the interaction
>between the electromagnetic properties of red wavelength photons and
>your recieiving circuit, which is electrochemical in nature rather than
>completely electronic as in the radio.
>
>That light was a part of the electromagnetic spectrum, along with radio
>waves was the conceptual leap that revolutionized physics in the late
>19th century, and laid the framework for Einsteins Theory of Relativity,
>just as the conclusion that electrons also displayed wavelike and
>particle like activity (deBroglie? Heisenberg? ) that usered in quantum
>physics, and the understanding of _how_ an appropriately excited
>electron could cause electromagnetic radiation to be errr...radiated.
>

So it is a matter of simantics and quantum mechanics as I thought.  The
photon is the 'medium' of exchange.  Is the photon the quantum of energy?
Is it the smallest postible unit of energy?  Or is there a smaller 'packet'
of energy?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:08:53 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: site update

Just in case you care, I've updated my website with some more last minute
artwork for the next G:T book.  There's also another set of deckplans for
the Khanushu Class, a performance downgrade of my Acipiter design with more
cargo and staterooms, and some gauss weapons pics (never did like the ones
in the main books).

Have a good one and sorry for the bandwidth,
Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:06:07 -0800
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: locker items

Brolly" or Survival Umbrella - Pathfinder Boots - The Inheritor's Belt 

Who's got Trav write up's for 'em?

 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:14:49 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

Charles Prevatte writes:
"Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons."

	It is my understanding that electromagnetic (EM) radiation
	is simply waves propagated in the EM field. Photons are
	quanta of energy that are carried by such waves, and the
	difference between gamma rays, visible light, radar, etc.
	are no more than differences in the frequency of these 
	waves.

"My text books say the electrons are radiated from antennas and 
recieved by antennas."

	Movement of electrons is what makes an electrical current.
	EM waves (like other waves) do not involve the net 
	movement of the medium. Picture two people holding a rope
	taught between them: if one jerks her/his end up and down 
	suddenly, a wave propagates along the rope. The wave 
	carries energy but does not move the rope (much) in the 
	direction of the wave.

	I hope that I haven't messed up on any details, I'm only a 
	poor biology student :)

Ian

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #110
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 111



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re:More GT Modules (Long)
Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements
re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking
Photons and cancelling light waves
GT worldbuiliding
re: Tech Level
Plankwell-class BB (Long!)
Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?
List of Modern Armors
Re: Lanthanum
Re: Tech Level
Vilani vocab call
Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?
Re: site update
Re: Vilani vocab call
Re: Lanthanum 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:23:38 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:More GT Modules (Long)

>Design Stats for Passive Sensor Modules:
>TL   Weight(tons) Spaces  Cost(MCr)  Scan/Range
>11+  176.86       17      280.32395  52, 7000000 miles (11263000 km)

It's interesting to note how small even the biggest of these beasties
are. GT battleships could easily mount scanners with 70,000,000 mile ranges
or more...

Presumably a non-streamlined ship wouldn't have to put its sensors in a pop
turret - does that affect the cost much? 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:51:03 -0700
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements

At 10:39 AM 2/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if Paul Sanders still has these available? I found a 
>cataloge from last year and was interested in getting another one? 
>Mike
>
>Fellow TMLers:
>Has anyone heard from Paul?
>I wonder what the status is of those supplements.
>I paid for mine in late Oct 98.
>Eric

Mike, Eric, and the TML in general,

Yep, I'm still here, and still waiting on Bill Keith to return the
autographed covers. I've contacted Andrew twice, and he has reminded Bill
twice, but to date, still no UPS driver knocking on my door with them. :(

I'm going to give it one more week before I start pulling my hair out.

I'm in a bit of a quandary as to what to do if Bill doesn't return them -
Would you folks be willing to settle for un autographed copies? Hopefully,
it won't come to that, but I really don't know what else to do - I *really*
want to get this project wrapped up and over with (it's been fun, but I am
over it!).

If and when I get the covers back, it will take me about two weeks to
bind/trim/ship the orders. One way or the other (autographed or un
autographed), they will be in the mail by the first week of March.

As for your specific question Mike, yes, I still have around 30 unsold
copies per my agreement with Marc. If you'd like to order one, then please
contact me off the list at my email address which is: timmon@primenet.com

This is beginning to sound like a mantra, but, again, I am sorry for the
delay folks, and am working to resolve it as swiftly as possible. Also,
thanks again to everyone for their patience.

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

P.S. Andrew informs me that his newest novel is on the bookstore shelves -
it is titled "False Colors", and is set in the Wing Commander universe. It
was "co-authored" with William Forstchen (Andrew wrote 95% of it). Be aware
that some lamer (and now a former employee) at Baen Books incorrectly put
William Keith's name on the cover - but it is Andrew's work. I bought it
and am presently into the first few chapters - it is looking good and I
highly recommend it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:52:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 12:23 PM 2/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons.  It could be
>>a problem of simantics.  Last I checked 100Mhz FM was not a photonic system
>>but one based soully on electrical potential.  Are photons somehow part of
>>FM radio?  Was this a detail my professors left out?  None of my Radio
>>Amature Handbooks mention it.  Nor did any of my Broadcast Communications
>>text books.  But then it could be a case of simplification.  Neither goes
>>into quantum mechanics though.  My text books say the electrons are radiated
>>from antennas and recieved by antennas.  To be honest it's been so long
>>sence my theory classes the actual mechanic escapes me.  I am an applied
>>science person after all.
>
>Radio is technically photons. However, that's not a very useful way of 
>looking at them.
>
>While one might mentally picture photons as a stream of little billiard balls,
>that's not always true. Photons are really tiny little packets of 
>electromagnetic energy -as a photon goes by you see an electric and magnetic
>field wobble back and forth very briefly. It wobbles at a characteristic 
>frequency depending on the kind of radiation - or you can see it as having
>a characteristic wavelength. 
>
>For photons with very short wavelengths - like visible light - the
wobbly-waveness
>isn't very relevant; the wavelenth is small compared to most real-world objects
>so you just treat them as billiard balls. For long wavelengths like radio,
>though, the waveness becomes crucial to understanding them, and there are so
>many individual photons involved that they all sort of add together - so you
>can just see it as a continuous sea of electromagnetic fields; if you stand
>in one place as radio waves are beamed at you you can just treat it as a 
>continuous electric field going up and down and up and down at the 
>frequency of the radio signal.
>
>This is the core of quantum mechanics - things are both particles and waves
>at the same time.
>
>Radio signals certainly don't radiate electrons. Instead, electrons move up
>and down inside the broadcasting antenna. This makes an electric and magnetic
>field that wobbles up and down and travels out from the antenna - kind of 
>like if you pushed a piece of wood up and down in the water, waves wou
>travel out. In the recieving antenna, the electric field makes the electrons
>in the reciever again move up and down in synch with the ones in the 
>transmitter - kind of like the water wave coming to a second piece of wood and
>making it float up and down. The *effects* you see are on the pieces of wood,
>but it's not as if the pieces of wood travel from one place to another.
>Similarly the effects you see in radio are on the electrons, but electrons
>aren't travelling.
>
>Bruce
>

Thank you.  That was almost exactly how it was originaly explained to me
years ago and then the prof. said to forget it and look at it like an EE.
The quantum mechanics of it are not real useful in designing real world
applications.  EEs have their own mathamatical methods of modeling such
things that let us do our jobs.  Most of those methods deal with modeling
the properties of currents and those things that effect currents.  One thing
that always gives me trouble with the 'unified field theory' and that
photons are what make up all the EMS is the drastic differences between the
ways that IR, visible light, and radio signals behave in the world.  You can
not treat them alike when you are designing equipment.  I can EM shield out
radio interferience but that does nothing to stop gamma radiation or IR or
light.  In the real world there are no 'black globes'.  I'd love to be able
to phaze cancel heat.  I'd make a fortune in the air-conditioning busness!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:58:59 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

At 04:14 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte writes:
>"Last I heard your car radio picks up EM radiation not photons."
>
>	It is my understanding that electromagnetic (EM) radiation
>	is simply waves propagated in the EM field. Photons are
>	quanta of energy that are carried by such waves, and the
>	difference between gamma rays, visible light, radar, etc.
>	are no more than differences in the frequency of these 
>	waves.
>
>"My text books say the electrons are radiated from antennas and 
>recieved by antennas."
>
>	Movement of electrons is what makes an electrical current.
>	EM waves (like other waves) do not involve the net 
>	movement of the medium. Picture two people holding a rope
>	taught between them: if one jerks her/his end up and down 
>	suddenly, a wave propagates along the rope. The wave 
>	carries energy but does not move the rope (much) in the 
>	direction of the wave.
>
>	I hope that I haven't messed up on any details, I'm only a 
>	poor biology student :)
>

No, you said it very well.  I'm short of articulation ability today.  I'm
running on about 3 hours sleep.  Several people have explained it quite well
indeed.  I've been to busy building trees to remember the forest.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:02:28 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Photons and cancelling light waves

A photon can be considered to be a "packet" of energy. How much it has
depends upon what it was emitted from and what caused it to be emitted. The
"photon" is thus not a unit of energy but a physical "thing" (though whether
you want to consider that "thing" as a wave, a particle or a wavicle depends
upon what you hope to achieve). The energy of a photon can be measured in
different units... let me think about this... Joules, electron-volts and...
what?

Thinking about photons as small lumps of energy is not really useful when
dealing with radio-frequency waves. It's best applied to short-wavelength
waves such as light and gamma rays.

There was a comment a while back about not being able to cancel a light
signal by phase shift. I seem to dimly remember that interferometry deals
with precisely that - the interaction of two light waves to cancel one
another out in places. This requires polarised or coherent light, so isn't
really feasable for an Invisibility Device.

My memory on this is dim, but tha above seems to make sense.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:47:02 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: GT worldbuiliding

> (snippage of impressive rant)
>
>I feel better for that. Martin, it wasn't meant to be personal....

No problem. In fact I'm beginning to agree with you. I was sort of
suggesting that First In should allow for the oddballs to come up
*sometimes* but generally produce more sensible worlds - sort of a halfway
house between a full "fix" and a "leave it as is"

But hey, now I think about it:

1. If dopes like me and Neil can explain the oddball worlds , anyone can.
2. It's canon.
3. It stays interesting.

So, for the record: I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. FIRST IN SHOULD PARALLEL THE LBB
SYSTEM.

After all; you don't get to choose what the world lying at that ideal
trade-link point will be like in real life, do you?


Maybe the stellar data should be updated for current theory, though.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:30:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Tech Level

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Who can tell me what the Tech Level of a Frontier World in 2300AD is?
>How about a world inbetween a frontier world and a core world?

Have a look at Andy Slack's page, Halfway Station. He has a lot of
Traveller to 2300 cross over stuff.

It's linked off BITS http://www.bits.org.uk/  'Jumpsite'

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:00:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Plankwell-class BB (Long!)

With all the discussion of BatRons recently, here's my take on one of the
greats.  If anyonw is interested, I have the stats for Bruce's combat
system also.


INV Admiral Plankwell, Plankwell class Dreadnought (FF&S v2)
Designed by Doug Berry, after Supplement 9

Statistics

Tons: 200000std (SL Monolith Hypersonic)
Volume: 2800000m3
Mass (L/C): 4130461t/4046130t
Dimensions: 384.7m x 171.4m x 42m
Maintenance Points: 84494
Size: 11
Crew: 2833
Cost: 198,354.903 MCr
Tech Level: 15


Electronics

Controls: Holographic, High automation. 6x FibComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0). Bridge.
Communications: 2x Radio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 10x Laser (1,000AU, 0MW). 1x
Meson (1,000AU, 5MW).
Sensors: 1x PEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 1x AEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW). 10x
LIDAR (15 [2mkm], 2.5MW).
ECM: 1x Radio Jammer (50,000km, 0.03MW). 1x Area. Jammer (12, 500MW). 1x
Decp. Jammer (12, 1MW). 1x Pas. Jammer (15, 0.5MW).
Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:0.5 (0.5 at 444033MW, 0 at 84736MW), Act:1, Neu:1,
Grav:2


Performance

4               Jump (20000std/pc fuel)
4.1/4.2         Maneuver (Thruster:420000MW)
4481kph/4527kph Atmosphere Maximum
3361kph/3395kph Atmosphere Cruise
8               Power (Fusion:847362MW,1yr)
86052.6         Fuel (Scoop:2 hrs/Purif:48 hrs,753MW)
0/214/612/0/0   Accommodations
11336           Life Sup. (Ty:St,Ex /'St)
4               G-Comp
40              Damper Turrets (5MW Rng:50000km0)
750             Damper Screen (372MW)
750             Meson Screen (703.125MW)
40              Force Field (Acc:9900000MJ/tn)
160 [3500]      Armor, 59 Structure

Weaponry

1x 100k-Mj Spinal MG (+6) 2/16-12-10-8 [1,50/2245-1247-624-316] (LR)
3x Triple 256-Mj PA (+6) 2/11-9-6-4 [3,100/241-120-60-30] (LR)
20x 750-Mj Dual Laser Bay (+6) 1/13-13-13-13 [10,600/68-68-68-68] (LR)
40x 85-Mj Laser Turret (+6) 1/7-2-2-2 [10,100/23-23-23-23] (LR)
32x 20-pack Missile Bay Auto 20/20 (Mag:500 /MFD:500,000km)
w/520 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU
4x Missile Master Fire Directors (0MW 50,000km)


Features

1990x Airlock                 10x Decontamination Airlock
6x Docking Umbilical          2x Electronic Shop (6std ea.)
2x Machine Shop (10std ea.)   4x Sickbay (8std ea.)
1x Ship's locker (100std ea.) 15x Prisoner Capacity (10/0/5)
1x Armory (2.14std ea.)       5x Gym (2.5std ea.)
9x Full Galley (Cap:100)      1x Capsule Launcher (60 rdy cap.)


Small Craft

4x Spacious Hanger (40std, 4 hatches) Pinnaces
2x Spacious Hanger (95std, 2 hatches) Shuttles
60x Jettison Bay (10std) Liferafts


Backups

Drives: 2x Thruster 0.4G / 0.4G.
Screens: 2x Meson Screen (/PV:500). 2x Damper Screen (/PV:500
Communications: 4x Radio (50,000km). 2x Meson (500,000km
Sensors: 2x PEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm]). 2x AEMS (11 [.16mkm]). 20x LIDAR (14.5
[500kkm])
ECM: 1x Radio Jammer (5,000km). 1x Area. Jammer (11). 2x Decp. Jammer (11).
1x Pas. Jammer (13)
Power & Fuel: Fusion (24022MW). Purification Plant (480hr)


Crew Details

9x Maneuver        1x Electronic  1876x Engineering
143x Maintenance   207x Gunnery   16x Screens
16x Flight.        60x Marines    388x Command
94x Stewards       23x Medical



Built to be the centerpiece for the defense of the Domain of Deneb, the
Plankwell-class battleship is considered by many Naval observers to be the
best example of modern capital ship design.

The class breaks the traditional mold of Imperial battleships by placing
heavy emphasis on it's missile batteries.  Fired in volley, a Plankwell can
fire an astonishing 640 missiles in a single action.  This rate of fire can
be sustained for hours due to large magazines.  For most missions, the
standard ASM-37P "Detail" missile is stored, though other models may be
carried based on the ship's mission.

This isn't to say that the Plankwell skimps on energy weaponry.  The main
ship-killing weapon is the 100k-Mj Spinal Meson Gun, along with numerous
laser batteries for both offense and close-in anti missile defense.  The
class' particle accelerator array is three triple mounted 256-Mj torodial
weapons.  These weapons are limited to a secondary role against enemy
cruiser, or in surface bombardment of airless worlds.  It is thought that
later versions of the class will omit the PA bays in favor of additional
defenses.

The ship itself is a long, blocky monolith nearly 400 meters long.  The
vessel is divided into three distinct sections, the engineering hull, the
crew hull, and the weaponry hull, with the last being offset from the first
two to allow the muzzle of the MG to clear.  As their names suggest, the
ship's functions are divided between the various hulls.

The engineering section contains the ship's drives and power plant.  The
ship is rated for Jump-4, and can make 4g acceleration.  A secondary set of
thrusters are available for emergencies, and can generate .4g.  A back-up
power plant can provide power for essential systems (life support, sensors,
etc.,.) while the crew makes repairs to the main systems.

The crew section contains the bulk of the ship's living spaces.  The crew
is housed in fairly spacious quarters, and ever effort has been made to
give each crewman a space of his own, where he can "get away from the
Navy."  The nine dining facilities serve surprisingly good food, and are
the envy of the fleet.  The crew section also contains the ship's bridges.
There are two: the running bridge, contained in a tower on the vessel's
port side, allowing day-to-day operations with a view of the outside.  The
other bridge is the Combat Command Center, which is deep in the heart of
the ship.  CCC is where the full command center of the ship is found, and
is manned at all times, even when the command staff is on the running
bridge.  CCC is actually several different areas, such as Sensor Control,
Gunnery Control, Engineering Control, all of which report to the Officer of
the deck, who sits in the center of all the action.

The weapons hull contains the ship's armament, as described above.  In
desperate actions, a Plankwell commander can jettison the weapons hull.
This act raises the performance of the engines to an amazing 11.6g!  To
make use of this power, all crew members must be strapped down, and no
maneuvering can be attempted.  It is a way to get out of a bad fight quickly.

While the Plankwell is streamlined, it is not design to make any sort of
planetary landing, and any touchdown would be catastrophic at best.
Interface is handled by the four 40dt pinnaces and two 95dt shuttlecraft.
One of the pinnaces is outfitted to IMF standards, and is used by the
on-board Marine platoon as a recovery craft.  Even with the onboard
compliment, personnel transfer is very slow, and liberty call is usually
accomplished via the aid of local assets.

When the class was proposed, there was great controversy surrounding the
choice of Grand Admiral Olav haut-Plankwell for the class.  Remembered as a
hero in the Spinward Marches for his defeat of the Zhodani in the First
Frontier War, he is reviled elsewhere as the instigator of the Civil War.
At the time the class was being tested, the Fourth Frontier War had just
ended, and the naming of the class may have been a message to the Iridium
Throne "ignore us at your peril."

Operationally, the Plankwell is a single mission platform.  It is a ship
killer.  The class has none of the flexibility seen in other battleships,
but in giving up that flexibility, it becomes that much more lethal.
Plankwell BatRons are organized around two Plankwells, with several
supporting cruisers and escorts.  In wartime, it is envisioned that
Plankwell equipped BatRons would form the heart of the line of battle, and
carry the fight directly to the enemy fleet.  Another possibility is using
Plankwells as raiders, sending them deep into Out World Coalition territory
to destroy orbital starports and shipyards.

Whatever the mission, the sophonts who crew these mighty ships have come up
with an unofficial nickname for their charges: "Kaddushaggur", or "God's
Own Hammer."

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:09:44 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?

>Can someone tell me from 2300AD whether you could transmit a light-speed
>signal from a ship in stutterwarp?


Yes. The ship is always in real space. A "moving" stutterwarp ship is
jumping from one point in spacetime to another along its flight path, but
these jumps are instantaneous, taking no time whatsoever. In the intervals
between jumps, while in realspace, the ship could transmit its EM signals
for communications, sensors, and all of that.

This is borne out by the rules in that _Star Cruiser_ ships can detect each
other, communicate and remote control missiles while using stutterwarp
drives.

Of course, this is only of real use in a significant gravity well, where
stutterwarp drives are limited to sublight pseudovelocities. Ships at
translight speeds in deep space cannot talk to one another unless they stop
to transmit, because they would outrun the signals.

I imagine there might be a doppler-shift effect or somesuch (my brain would
hurt if I thought about *that* too much), but nothing that couldn't be
compensated for.


>Also, what is the range of speeds for 2300AD in stutterwarp?  What would an
>average 2300AD ship above fighter size speed be?


IIRC, the average was about 2 ly a day. The JFK Cruisers were noted to be
really fast warships with an efficiency of over 4 ly a day. As with other
versions of Traveller, fighters are not faster than warships, but fit the
"patrol boat" model often cited on this list.


>Could someone also give me an idea of what an average distance between
>habitable planets in two different systems might be?


Mmm. Can't help you there, except to say that it would be the distance
between the systems' main stars plus or minus a little bit (a couple of
AUs).


>Given this, how long would it take an average (above fighter size) speed
>2300AD ship to get to another habitable planet an average interstellar
>distance away?


IIRC, the travel time between systems is a matter of days and hours.


>How long would it take a light speed transmission from the origin planet to
>get to the destination planet?


A number of years equal to the distance between the two in light years, of
course. ;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:07:29 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: List of Modern Armors

If anyone would like a single chart with all of the modern armors from T4
main book, emperor's arsenal and central supply catalogue (in Microsoft Word
format--although I guess I could put into RTF as well) drop me an e-mail and
I'll send it to you.

		Dave Nelson
		AveNelso@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:11:56 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > ROFL!  I don't smoke, but now I have a real reason to get a lighter!
> > Imagine that, we already have Real World(tm) precursors to Jump drives!
> > All we need now is a Model 3 computer.
 
> I've got *4* TRS-80 Model 4 computers. As well as a couple of Model
> 100s,  a pair of Model 2000s and one and a half Model 600s.

Well, I actually *do* have a Model 3, a 3P to be exact. Would anyone
like to pay Traveller prices for it...credits converted to dollars at
the standard 1 to 5, of course. ;-p

I'd even throw in the disk with the BASIC Traveller software, from the
JTAS, that I typed in many years ago.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:18:45 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Tech Level

>Who can tell me what the Tech Level of a Frontier World in 2300AD is?

Hmm. Good question. If you are thinking that TTL equals *production*
capacity, then probably none too high (maybe TTL 3-7???) If you are
thinking TTL equals the level of technology that Mr. Joe average colonist
has access to, it is probably about TTL 10 to TTL 12 (with no gravitics and
better computers, of course).


>How about a world inbetween a frontier world and a core world?


About the same as above. 2300AD colonies are pretty closely tied to the
Earth and/or Beta Canum (was it Beta Canum? I cannot remember the name of
the "other" 2300AD core world anymore) in a lot of ways.


>Okay, what if we are talking about 2500AD, now?


Your guess is as good as anyone elses. If technology slows down to the
regular Traveller universe pace, probably +1 TL at most. IMHO, it would be
more like TTL 17-18 -- but that's just me.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:20:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Vilani vocab call

Just a quick request here:  If you're writing Trav materials and making up
Vilani proper names or words for things, I'd greatly appreciate it if
you'd just drop me a note with that information.  I'm going to try to
make available a "complete" (to date) Vilani-English/English-Vilani
vocabulary in the next few months, and I'd like to incorporate as much
fan-based stuff as possible.  I've got ~1500 entries, but more are sought
:)  Particularly if you're having stuff published (and thus attaining some
type of canonization), I'd like to make sure it's included in this Vilani
reference glossary.  Just email it to me at:

schwarz@fas.harvard.edu

Thanks!

Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:18:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?

At 01:52 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Can someone tell me from 2300AD whether you could transmit a light-speed
>signal from a ship in stutterwarp?

Yes, but the signal is going to be chopped all to hell.

For the rest of your questions, I know there is a 2300AD list out there,
you might ask them.
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:22:20 -0500
From: "Glenn E. Myers" <glenn.myers@mailhub.ansys.com>
Subject: Re: site update

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> Have a good one and sorry for the bandwidth,
> Jesse DeGraff
> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

What! "Sorry for the bandwidth" !? Bit for bit, this is the best use of
bandwidth I have experienced all day. You finally kicked GOV'T MULE off
my desktop. Congrats! Great work!
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:30:49 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani vocab call

AAB (Argushiigi Admegulasha Bilanidin): The Vilani Respository of All
Knowledge. Headquartered on Vland, the AAB was (during the final three
millenia of the Vilani Empire) the predominant repository of scientific and
technological knowledge. With a massive archive and library complex on Vland,
and with correspondent archives on major worlds within the Empire, the AAB was
clearly the single source for technological data.



ASN (Aashner Sirkaa Nek): The Secret Imperial Archives (of the Vilani Empire).
The Vilani Empire maintained meticulous records of its operations and of its
subject worlds. Not all of this information was considered fit for
distribution to the public. What was acceptable for public view was eventually
deposited in the AAB; what was not was kept in the ASN.

I think Nek means secret and Aashner means Archives.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:41:15 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum 

> > > ROFL!  I don't smoke, but now I have a real reason to get a lighter!
> > > Imagine that, we already have Real World(tm) precursors to Jump drives!
> > > All we need now is a Model 3 computer.
>  
> > I've got *4* TRS-80 Model 4 computers. As well as a couple of Model
> > 100s,  a pair of Model 2000s and one and a half Model 600s.
> 
> Well, I actually *do* have a Model 3, a 3P to be exact. Would anyone
> like to pay Traveller prices for it...credits converted to dollars at
> the standard 1 to 5, of course. ;-p

I *used* to have a couple TRS CoCo 2's and a CoCo3.  Great lil machines, 
especially when you ran them on OS9.  I remember watching tv one day, when 
Bill Gates was announcing to teh world that you needed at *LEAST* 4 megs of 
RAM to multitask.  I hadda laugh, because at the time, I was downloading a 
piece of software off CIS, in another virtual terminal I was unpacking it, in 
a *third* virtual terminal, I was going through the README file, in the 
*fourth* terminal, I was editing the binary, all the while I was printing out 
the documentation on my old Epson MX-80.

Funniest thing about it was, I was doing all this in *64K*!

> I'd even throw in the disk with the BASIC Traveller software, from the
> JTAS, that I typed in many years ago.

I never got around to typing them in.  But then again, I've always been a 
Pascal freak, not a BASIC freak...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #111
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, February 9 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 112



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lanthanum
HIWG archive data
Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?
Re: Planet-building advice needed.
Vision Forge / Jesse
re: GT worldbuiliding
Re: site update
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: GT worldbuiliding
Re: site update again
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: GT worldbuiliding
Re: Satellite design question
RE: Satalite design question.
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements
Re: GT worldbuiliding
Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?
Re: Satalite design question.
2300
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Satalite design question.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:40:44 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > At 09:14 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> FWIW Lanthanum is sometimes also used as part of the metal mixtue in
> > >> lighter flints.
> > >
> > >You mean my Zippo'll do Jump-3??
> > >
> > >Cool!!
> > >
> > >Keven
> > >
> >
> > Now that I think about it, that may explain why I keep 'misplacing'
> > lighters.  I'm no misplacing them they are misjumping due the earths gravity
> > well.  I wonder if socks and driers have a lanthanum catilizing effect?
> 
> Dunno bout that.  Thing is, I've had my Zippo for a couple years now.  I
> wonder howcome it never Jumped away.
> 
> Must not of had enough fuel in it...
> 
Nah, just the wrong kind of fuel.  You need a tiny fuel purification
plant to crack the hydrogen out of the petroleum distillate....

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:45:44 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: HIWG archive data

Calling Leroy Guatney or Clay Bush:

What do the "B" and "W" travel zone codes in the HIWG sector data indicate?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:47:10 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?

>Can someone tell me from 2300AD whether you could transmit a light-speed
>signal from a ship in stutterwarp?

I will ask the 2300 list. Never thought about it.

>Also, what is the range of speeds for 2300AD in stutterwarp?  What would an
>average 2300AD ship above fighter size speed be?

Ships have a sw effieciency stated in light years per day I think it is.
(24hrs).
The higher the eff the more light years in a day.
The fastest big ship is around  4, I think.
Fighters tend to be 3+ in their eff., but lack the range to travel very far.
Fighters endurance is usually measured in hours rather than weeks for large
ships.


>Could someone also give me an idea of what an average distance between
>habitable planets in two different systems might be?
There is a good program "warp" that calculates this for 2300.

For 2300, 7.7 light years is the maximum. After that you have to enter a
gravity well and discharge your drive, if you don't  then "BOOM"

>
>Given this, how long would it take an average (above fighter size) speed
>2300AD ship to get to another habitable planet an average interstellar
>distance away?

I would say 3 days.
At least. That does not quite include the 40 hours to discharge the drives

>
>How long would it take a light speed transmission from the origin planet to
>get to the destination planet?

Depends on how many light years apart they are.

Visit
http://members.tripod.com/AD2300

Look around, then use the webring link to visit the sites which contain a
bit more data.
They will lead you to the Warp homepage.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:58:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

At 11:42 PM 2/7/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
>> stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
>> Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.

>You haven't given us the *good* stuff. Namely what the average daytime
>and nighttime temps are. 

Ah.  The dayside maximum is 212.4, the nightside minimum is 49.  The high
atmospheric pressure retains heat fairly well, I suppose.

The atmosphere is listed as Corrosive, so that's where I'm starting from.
- --

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:59:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Vision Forge / Jesse

People (Sophonts?)

Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site. He's added a
Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff. I want Far Trader, if only for
the pics....

Linked on the jumpsite on http://www.bits.org.uk/

Can't remember the direct URL...

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:08:27 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: GT worldbuiliding

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>After all; you don't get to choose what the world lying at that ideal
>trade-link point will be like in real life, do you?

You dealt with the one that bugged my (Dawnworld) well enough ;-) Anyway,
having done some SGK subsectors for BITS I know it can be hard to be
original, and in some ways the oddballs help the creative juices..

>Maybe the stellar data should be updated for current theory, though.

Yes. I believe Leroy had some reasonable (IIRC) ideas on that...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:16:37 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: site update

Jesse,

Just a quick one. For my money any time you let us know that you've
added some more excellent artwork to the Traveller universe is NOT
wasted bandwith! And I'll argue that point with anyone!
>8^p

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Just in case you care, I've updated my website with some more last minute
<snip>
> Have a good one and sorry for the bandwidth,
> Jesse DeGraff
> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:20:36 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

Check out
http://members.tripod.com/AD2300II/Main.html

That is an ongoing project by the 2300 list.
It will detail an orbital facility in great detail once its done.
TV
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.


>
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>
>> I just noticed a glaring problem.
>>
>> Traveller has a great many ships designs but next to no statlite designs.
>>
>> What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?  Great places
for
>> adventure and not one deck plan.
>>
>> Charles L.
>
>One of FASA's Adventure Ships volumes had a nice orbital station in it.
>
>Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:25:22 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT worldbuiliding

As the author of FIRST IN I suppose I should say a few words.

It's true that the worldbuilding rules in First In will not always give you
the same results as the CT system when you're working from scratch.
That's deliberate -- I'm a member of the school that thinks that if you're
going to include more detail, you might as well do it in such a way as
to make the results more plausible.

On the other hand, a secondary (but important) goal of the design is
to make it reasonably easy to "reverse-engineer" the canonical material.
If I do my job right, you ought to be able to take any world generated by
the CT system and place it in a full star system with as much supporting
detail as you want.

So the canon material won't be "broken" by FIRST IN.  Bent a little, at
most.

(Incidentally, another secondary goal has been to *not* alter the CT
system significantly if there's no compelling reason to.  At the very
least, there will be an optional rule that will allow you to do things
the old way where possible.)

So chill, folks.  And come take part in the playtest if you can.  You
might as well make your objections on what the text actually says,
while there's still time to make changes.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, freelance writer, amateur
historian, science fiction fan, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
JFZeigler@aol.com
"Never speak for others. You can get in enough trouble speaking for yourself."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:27:10 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: site update again

Jesse,

I take back my first reply. It wasn't enthusiastic enough! If you
haven't looked in on this pics yet DO SO NOW! DO NOT WAIT, DO NOT
HESITATE! (shouting with sheer joy) THESE ARE FANTASTIC!

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
<snipped>
> Have a good one and sorry for the bandwidth,
> Jesse DeGraff
> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:27:47 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

Also, didn't Lightening Class Cruisers say that various parts of different
ships had been cut up and used for different installations?

A few decks of an AHL would make a great orbital station.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:31:06 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Guess Dom didn't realize that I'd already sent a message to the TML about it
;)
Jesse



>People (Sophonts?)
>
>Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site. He's added a
>Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff. I want Far Trader, if only for
>the pics....
>
>Linked on the jumpsite on http://www.bits.org.uk/
>
>Can't remember the direct URL...
>
>Dom
>
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:31:15 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Computer Programming in Traveller

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> > I'd guess that a '2' would run a mean game of carmageddon!!!  What does the
> > computer techo on a ship *do* though?  Programming is surely a thing of the
> > ancient past (they did *what*- what were they, cavemen?) that scene from
> > startrek pops to mind with Scotty talking to a mouse :)
> 
> Well, you can't ever get away from programming computers, on some
> level...no matter what the TL. Of course programming methods and systems
> will become far more advanced; to what point, I don't know.
> 
> But I suspect:
> 
> Serious OO throughout the systems...You want your High Zhodani Spell
> checker to worknwith your system, buy one. Plug it in, and everything
> that deals with spelling will use it.
> 
> You want to program? Buy a programming kit. It would probably be a
> collection of modules you plug together in one fashion or another.
> Notice, I'm talking in virtual terms, not physical, here.
> 
> Specialized programming, for use with, for instance, the 'programming'
> skills, would involve module building modules, at an increasingly lower
> level as the programmers skill goes up.
> 
> Humans have been visually oriented critters since long before we left
> the trees; 

<<snip>>
> 
> Real, low-level stuff, actually twiddling the bits, would have been
> taken over by optimizing compilers long, long ago. Programming in
> 'languages' would be viewed as beyond quaint; as if someone came up to
> me today and announced that he'd gotten his Jaquard loom to calculate
> logarithms...or that he'd keyed in a program flipping switches on the
> face of his Altair.
> 
I disagree with you to some extent about programming languages being
considered archaic.  After all, humans are _also_ verbally-oriented
critters, and will likely remain so.  It therefore seems quite possible
that programming languages will continue to play a role in computer
usage.  Perhaps not a dominant one, but a role nonetheless.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:51:49 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT worldbuiliding

Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:47:02 -0000, "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>But hey, now I think about it:
>
>1. If dopes like me and Neil can explain the oddball worlds , anyone can.
>2. It's canon.
>3. It stays interesting.
>
>So, for the record: I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. FIRST IN SHOULD PARALLEL THE LBB
>SYSTEM.

The thing is, the only thing that is "heavy canon" is the UWP
profile.  The LLB system is actually pretty short and could be
given as one alternate.  OTOH, for a GM to do what the
current system is aiming to do (generate worlds that match
what is known about planetary evolution today) would very hard
for most GMs.  For GMs who would prefer to I think it would be good not to
loose that material.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:56:43 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Satellite design question

Dear Folks -

Charles said:
>What about all those handy dandy little helpers in orbit?
>Great places for adventure and not one deck plan.

A nitpick, but actually TWO deckplans at least!  ;-)

Both are in licensed materials, not GDW. One is the Eshpridar (?? sp??)
from _Adventure Class Ships Vol 2_, the other is an interdiction satellite
from an old GW publication - can't remember the name now, I just remember
it included the Vargr tradeboat, close to the ugliest ship ever designed
for Traveller. The Marava trader and Luriani (sp?) Scout explorer have
*nothing* on this design. Build THAT one, Jesse, and we'll give you an MCG!
(The SEH is reserved for a model & plans of the Tigress... ;-)

I agree with Charles. I think these things add colour into the game. Like
the mining grav APC from Far Traveller (well, I *think* it's FT) or the
spider-like orbital cargo handler (FT again, I think?), etc... Often the
third-party people seemed to have more imagination or go further "out
there" with their designs than GDW did.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:15:44 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Satalite design question.

challenge 42 had an article on "Imperial Research Station Beta" in it
using some of the AHL decks.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"  (Dr. Strangeglove,
1963)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Thomas Vickers [SMTP:redroach@texed.net]
> Sent:	09 February 1999 17:28
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Satalite design question.
> 
> Also, didn't Lightening Class Cruisers say that various parts of
> different
> ships had been cut up and used for different installations?
> 
> A few decks of an AHL would make a great orbital station.
> 
> TV
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:08:19 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 03:33 pm 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 12:17 PM 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:

>No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of
light.
>Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.  It is a radio signal.  


	Exsqueeze me? Radar is an electromagnetic phenomenon, and hence is
involves photons, just like visible light. Only difference is the
energy of the photon. Look at any spectrum, you'll find radar on
there as well as visible light ...

>Radar is not photonic.  Light as far as I know can not be canceled
with
>phaze shift because all it's partical have the same charge (0).
Electronic
>signals have charge that can be canceled with their oposite.  The
'oposite'
>of an electron is a 'hole' which in effect is the lack of an
electron rather
>that a partical in its' own right.

	You're really losing it now. Both radar and light are waveforms. You
CAN cancel light with phase shift--that's how you get interference
patterns, holograms, etc .... The problem with using the technique as
stealth is what a previous poster mentioned--by the time your fancy
stealth gear measures the incoming signal (via an antenna ...),
determines the frequency, phase, and amplitude, and generates an
exactly opposite signal, millions of wavecrests have already
reflected back to the enemy, telling him exactly where you are.

	It works better with sound because electronics are fast enough/sound
is slow enough.


>>>Disclaimer:  I do not nor have I ever worked with ECM systems but
I have
>>>designed or helped design various specialty filters over the years
that
>>>acomplish this.
>>
>>Likewise disclaimer, except that I don't have anything to do with
RF filters
>>either.

	I'll disclaim the knowledge of RF filters. But I do know some
fundamental physics. Radar is the same type of entity as visible
light, which can be modelled either as a particle (the photon ...) or
as a waveform, or even as a geometric ray, depending on the level of
detail and what you're doing.

>>   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.
>
>        Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that
the
>power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is.  We can't build
>Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can
not do.

	This subject has been absolutely beat to death. It doesn't MATTER
what the power plant is, so it doesn't matter that we can't build
them. Just the power output. And we do know the power output of
Traveller starships. That energy MUST eventually be radiated away
from the vessel. Again, fundamental physics.

	Even with your powerplant off, if it's inhabited the ship MUST be
around 290K. And basic physics can tell you what it's radiating.
Mostly IR. Ask Bruce Macintosh, one of our resident IR experts (as an
IR astronomer, probably the most qualified member of this list to
discuss passive sensors and space applications ...)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:52:20 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: "lost" keith brother Supplements

At 10:39 am 2/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if Paul Sanders still has these available? I found
a 
>cataloge from last year and was interested in getting another one? 

OHHH SH>>>> Ooops. 

PAUL! Do NOT mail my package to the Colorado address! I've moved!
Contact me via private email, and I'll get you the new address...

(PS: If anybody knows Paul's email, I don't have it handy and would
appreciate it if you could clue me in so I can make sure he gets this
message ...)

(PPS: And no, you cannot have my copy when the post office returns it
to him. Not unless you'd like to meet mister sub-c planetoid ...)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:13:22 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GT worldbuiliding

At 03:51 pm 2/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:47:02 -0000, "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>>But hey, now I think about it:
>>
>>1. If dopes like me and Neil can explain the oddball worlds ,
anyone can.
>>2. It's canon.
>>3. It stays interesting.
>>
>>So, for the record: I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. FIRST IN SHOULD
PARALLEL THE LBB
>>SYSTEM.
>
>The thing is, the only thing that is "heavy canon" is the UWP
>profile.  The LLB system is actually pretty short and could be

	Y'know, I'm not going to be using First In to generate the Spinward
Marches. They're already generated. So I'm not strongly offended by
the idea that FI results in different statistics than LBB1. Does it
generate UWPs? Can I detail a system from scratch, or based around an
existing mainworld? Does it provide useful ideas?

(Yeah, I know. I could go to the playtest site and check it out
myself. Time is tight right now, unless somebody can help me travel
in time ... or sell me a few extra hours each day. 12 ought to do ...)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:16:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?

>
>For the rest of your questions, I know there is a 2300AD list out there,
>you might ask them.
>--

I would if I could find them.  --Clif
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:22:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

URL doesn't work.  --Clif


>Check out
>http://members.tripod.com/AD2300II/Main.html
>
>That is an ongoing project by the 2300 list.
>It will detail an orbital facility in great detail once its done.
>TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:23:57 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: 2300

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2303/ke01004.htm

that will tell you how to join the 2300 lists, but be VERY nice clif.
We make the Traveller folks look like choir boys.  We hate bad behavior.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:28:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

Well, I'm no expert, but I've done a little programming...

Even now, things seem to be moving to "object-based" programming, which
works with GUI (Graphical User Interface) or mouse-driven operating systems.

I picture futuristic programming being holographic or VR, with the
programmer pointing to an object hovering in space, and "dragging" it by
pointing to where he wants it in the output environment.

Maybe even more futuristic than that, a programmer would lie down on a
massaging table plugged into a system and simply "visualize" the
construction of the program desired.

- --Clif

>I disagree with you to some extent about programming languages being
>considered archaic.  After all, humans are _also_ verbally-oriented
>critters, and will likely remain so.  It therefore seems quite possible
>that programming languages will continue to play a role in computer
>usage.  Perhaps not a dominant one, but a role nonetheless.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:28:21 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

My goof
http://members.tripod.com/AD2300II/Main.htm

Please remember, this is not a complete sites.
The deckplans are not completed yet and it works on a tech level far below
Trav.
We have to spin the darned thing to get gravity.


>URL doesn't work.  --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #112
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 113



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: site update
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Vilani vocab call
Re: G:T vs CT
Re: G:T vs CT
GT worldbuilding
Don's GDW Sci-Fi Boardgame Auction
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Tech levels (Revisted)
Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia
Re: Real Traveller?
Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:33:34 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: site update

I think you'll have a pretty one sided arguement. Hell, Jesse work is great.

>Jesse,
>
>Just a quick one. For my money any time you let us know that you've
>added some more excellent artwork to the Traveller universe is NOT
>wasted bandwith! And I'll argue that point with anyone!
>>8^p
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> Just in case you care, I've updated my website with some more last minute
><snip>
>> Have a good one and sorry for the bandwidth,
>> Jesse DeGraff
>> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
>
>--
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:49:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

that's 

http://members.tripod.com/AD2300II/main.htm

no 'l' at the end. Guess who uses a PC...;-)

Clif wrote:
> 
> URL doesn't work.  --Clif
> 
> >Check out
> >http://members.tripod.com/AD2300II/Main.html
> >
> >That is an ongoing project by the 2300 list.
> >It will detail an orbital facility in great detail once its done.
> >TV

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:58:16 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

Clif wrote:
>
> I picture futuristic programming being holographic or VR, with
> the programmer pointing to an object hovering in space, and
> "dragging" it by pointing to where he wants it in the output
> environment.
>
> Maybe even more futuristic than that, a programmer would lie down
> on a massaging table plugged into a system and simply "visualize"
> the construction of the program desired.


I wouldn't go that far.  Otherwise, all our user interfaces
would look like geisha girls.  :-)

As a present day example, take a look at Visual C++ and
Visual Basic.  Both make windows programs, both have similar
development environments.  But, the net results can be
significantly different in performance and complexity to code.

In our future scenario, the entry level programmer can assemble
several modules and bind them to make functional programs.  But,
each of those modules has tons of excess baggage in the form
of error handling codes and such.  This extra code makes them
generic and bullet-proof, but the cost in more resources and
speed.  The advance programmer will work with the components
that make up the modules and build a streamlined version that
does the job faster and with fewer computing resources.

While visual metaphors may exist, I imagine most work horse
programming would be in the form of scripts that call pre-
built functions.  It's quicker and cheaper than rolling your
own custom functions.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:13:03 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

> Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site.
> He's added a Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff.
> I want Far Trader, if only for the pics....


We don't want to feed his ego too much.  Well, at least
until he finishes that tutorial link....  (hint, hint)

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:14:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

All I'm saying is that elements of script syntax could be arranged in a VR
environment or by simple visualization.  How far off can "BrainStorm" really
be?  There is no point pounding away at a keyboard for an If--Then--Else
statement when a simple point of the finger and a flick of the wrist will
do.

>While visual metaphors may exist, I imagine most work horse
>programming would be in the form of scripts that call pre-
>built functions.  It's quicker and cheaper than rolling your
>own custom functions.
>--
>TAZ
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:09:58 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

Clif wrote:
> 
> All I'm saying is that elements of script syntax could be arranged in a VR
> environment or by simple visualization.  How far off can "BrainStorm" really
> be?  There is no point pounding away at a keyboard for an If--Then--Else
> statement when a simple point of the finger and a flick of the wrist will
> do.
> 
> >While visual metaphors may exist, I imagine most work horse
> >programming would be in the form of scripts that call pre-
> >built functions.  It's quicker and cheaper than rolling your
> >own custom functions.
> >--
> >TAZ
> >
Well, none of this negates the verbal (programming language) paradigm. 
A possible melding of the visual and verbal programming realms, based on
levels of Computer skill, could be (footnotes refer to Windows 95
analogy):

Computer-0:  Can use prewritten programs after familiarization [1]

Computer-1:  Can familiarize self with prewritten programs without
outside instruction; can perform basic troubleshooting; can program
using standardized modules based on single paradigm [2]

Computer-2:  Can perform intermediate troubleshooting; can program using
standardized modules based on alternate paradigm [3]

Computer-3+: Can perform advanced troubleshooting; can program using any
known paradigm [4]

[1]  Most of my co-workers are at this level.  They can use some of the
obvious features of Win 3.11/Win 95, and associated applications, once
someone demonstrates those features.

[2]  This is the "proficient user" degree of skill.  I am at this
level.  I can teach myself to use standard features of Win 3.11/Win 95
and common office applications, help my co-workers with basic
troubleshooting, and use DOS batch files and Win 95 shortcuts to
streamline some basic activities.  (In Milieu 1100, text-based DOS
equivalents may be more esoteric, but there will be tools of
proportionate power that are available to proficient users.) 

[3]  At this level, one can earn a living as a programmer.  In the
Windows setting, these programmers can use multiple tools, such as C,
C++, VB, and Java, as well as (if needed) older tools such as DOS batch
files.

[4]  At this point, a programmer will at very least display perform the
above-mentioned tasks with greater skill.  They may also experiment,
with varying degrees of success, with developing entirely new means of
programming (such as using VR to "build" a process).  Additional
abilities are left to the individual referee to judge.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:24:07 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vilani vocab call

Emrur: n. A feeling of sorrow, disguised as joy, as when your son-in-law
receives a promotion.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:32:41 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor
race

Yes, but coming up with 'good' alien races, and not humans in rubber suits,
can put a big strain on your creativity.  After a while, the new races start
looking like they dropped out of Star Trek.

For one of my better races (at least well received) I used this trick.  They
had a multisector empire nearly a million years ago, built with sublight
ships.  For unknown, and to humans probably unknowable, reasons, they fell
into barbarism.  That took care of plenty of worlds with next to no
atmosphere or water, and being seperated for so long, each could have as
distinct a culture and even physiology as I had time to think up.

But, this is what I wanted to know.  The randomness of the CT system forces
you to come up with ideas and situations.  The G:T system looks (at first
and very quick) glance to be like the 2300AD system, which I loved.  Which
one to use?  Both.


Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:32:57 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT

Sword Worlder wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>
It's GURPS, not real Traveller

Sorry, I'm an adherant to the Jacksonian Heresy.  We read our LLBs upside
down and burn copies of TNE.


>>>>>>>>
When you are an exporter of bulk gases, why would you try to manufacture
anything more advanced than a gas cylinder?


Good one, I'll be using that.  I remember that TL was an indicator of local
conditions, but I always ignored that and went this route.  Just locally
manufactored items reflects TL, unless the plot calls for overall low tech
available.  Otherwise those TL 2 barbarians, if human, actually inhabit a
First Imperium military complex, they've just forgotten the tech of their
ancestors.  Yes, clich, when you stop and think about it, but who has time
to stop and think?


>>>>>>>>>>
The changes you are proposing sound as though they would preclude the
occurance of virgin worlds.


No, just make a more plausible corelation between habitat and population.  I
agree with Kevens' post about garden worlds.  They should be even less
hospitable than, say, the Moon.  On the Moon you have to bring all your life
forms, so you know what you get (mostly).  On a garden planet with a
compatiable biosphere you should have billions of hidden dangers, some that
show up right away, some that might take decades or even centuries to
manifest.
The danger of homogenization under this system is present, but you'll have
to look at the details yourself.  Either check out the files or wait and
buy the book.
Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:33:08 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: GT worldbuilding

David J. Golden wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

	Y'know, I'm not going to be using First In to generate the Spinward
Marches. They're already generated. So I'm not strongly offended by
the idea that FI results in different statistics than LBB1. Does it
generate UWPs? Can I detail a system from scratch, or based around an
existing mainworld? Does it provide useful ideas?


Best thing I've heard all day.

Plug in the mainworld and the asteroid belts and gas giant numbers for the
canon sectors.  Build the rest of the system with FI, and flesh out that
mainworld with the details in FI.  Change the color of the sun if need be,
that doesn't effect the cost of SDBs.

If you want, generate your own sectors with FI.  Or CT, but since I don't
have the LBBs anymore, and don't see too much reason to get them, I'll be
using FI.

Just my Cr. 0.02

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:43:35 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Don's GDW Sci-Fi Boardgame Auction

This will be the only posting of this to the mailing list.
My apologies, but I know some list members will be interested...


DonM.


Don's GDW Sci-Fi Boardgame Auction 

Rules:
1.	Replies to dmckinne@itds.com.
2.	Winner selects and pays for shipping; minimum $3 (priority mail).
3.	Winner sends me payment, then I ship.  If personal check, it
	sits at my bank for 10 business days before shipping.
4.	Current winning bid is listed first; in case of ties, the first
	bid received is listed first.
5.	Buyout bids have burned me in the past; so if you want to do
	it, bid an outrageous price.
6.	I'll use the "GOING", "GOINGx2", "GONE" method after bidding
	slows down. 
7.	I am god, but I don't like it.


803	Double Star, 1979 edition, unpunched, excellent condition
minimum bid $10


807	Belter, 1979 edition, unpunched, excellent condition
minimum bid $10


815	Bloodtree Rebellion, 1979 edition, unpunched, excellent condition
minimum bid $10 


821	Triplanetary, 1981 edition, mostly unpunched, good condition
	odd tape on box cover, some tear around tape
minimum bid $10


The first three games look like they just came off the store shelves,
while Triplanetary looks like someone put it in the bottom of a box and
forgot about it.

Send all replies to "dmckinne@itds.com".
Thanks!
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:03:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Clif wrote:
> >
> > I picture futuristic programming being holographic or VR, with
> > the programmer pointing to an object hovering in space, and
> > "dragging" it by pointing to where he wants it in the output
> > environment.
> >
> > Maybe even more futuristic than that, a programmer would lie down
> > on a massaging table plugged into a system and simply "visualize"
> > the construction of the program desired.
> 
> I wouldn't go that far.  Otherwise, all our user interfaces
> would look like geisha girls.  :-)

And that would be a problem because... ;-)

> As a present day example, take a look at Visual C++ and
> Visual Basic.  Both make windows programs, both have similar
> development environments.  But, the net results can be
> significantly different in performance and complexity to code.

Just remember this...Computers have existed for about 50-55 years. Compilers
for about 45, high level languages for a bit less (COBOL and FORTRAN were
invented in what, the late 50's?). Certainly less than a single lifetime.

Traveller is set 3000+ years from now.

Computer programming in Traveller is to computer programming now as
interactive CD's are to Babylonian cunieform tablets.

Or to make a more probable analogy, as a fish is to a bicycle.

Yes, there are differences between Visual C++ and Visual Basic in performance.
But we're sort of like two cavemen sitting around arguing about which color
flint will be used for the tools to construct the Space Station.

It is rather unlikely that a Traveller programmer would even recognize what we
are doing as programming a computer, and vice versa.

To us, it might be more like lying on a massage table, drafting a blueprint,
sculpting a figure, machining an abstract shape, or singing an aria, quite
probably nothing like any of those. Possibly like ALL of those, it would
depend on the tools the programmer prefers, the style they do best. 

There are already software tools that let you edit sound as a visual
phenomenon. (A sound editor, by the primary programmer behind Bryce...you use
photoshop-ish tools on a visual representation of the sound) 

It most probably will NOT look like someone sitting at a terminal typing set
words and symbols in a line.

That it will be a skill, there is no doubt, and generalized ideas of what
differing skill levels allow you to do are useful, but please...lets not kid
ourselves that the differences between VBasic and VC++ are even slightly
resolvable from the viewpoint of someone writing programs in the year 5560. 

As for the analogy, currently beloved by CSC faculty, that programming will
eventually be a concrete discipline like engineering bridges, I'm not so sure
that that is the case. Bridge-building can be automated to a large extent.
Building bridges is almost certainly reducible to a computer program, once we
know enough variables. It's sort of like chess...there are fixed rules.

Building a bridge that's esthetically pleasing as well as functional...well,
that's another thing entirely, and is where the skills of a truly great
engineer come into play. But it's not the functionality that they're
'programming' into the bridge, but the esthetics.

It's more than likely that computer programming could turn out to be the same.

What if the best analogy is rather that it turns out to be more like writing
novels? Something that can be taught, certainly. Something that can be done by
a large number of people of average skill...yes, look at the history of bad
literature. Something that changes with the whims of public taste, yes.
Something that is difficult to do really well? Certainly. Look at the much
scanter history of good literature.

Always keep in mind that we're talking about a time and place that is as far
removed from our experience as the ancient Egyptians are from us. This is a
generally good rule to keep in mind whenever you consider what life, for
instance, on Mora or better yet, Glisten may be like...

After all, look what they thought 1999 would be like in 1962...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:13:30 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)



>After all, look what they thought 1999 would be like in 1962...


Isn't Traveller all about what they thought 1999 would be like in 1962?

"Honey, I forgot to pick up my silver jumpsuit (with golden lightning bolt
insignia) down at the local autoclean. Could you tell the android to pick it
up when it flies over to the robomart in the skymobile?"

Sorry. I couldn't resist! ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:21:59 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

>The quantum mechanics of it are not real useful in designing real
world
>applications.

You haven't heard of the SQuID ?
Or the tunneling electron microscope ?
Or even the basic FET, for that matter ?

>EEs have their own mathamatical methods of modeling such
>things that let us do our jobs.  Most of those methods deal with
modeling
>the properties of currents and those things that effect currents.

Assuming that EE means "Elecrical Engineer" ....

Hmm, in power electronics, maybe.  I rarely ever used currents except
when the TTL loads got high and we had to check fanouts. Now that TTL
is out, even that's not a problem.

>One thing
>that always gives me trouble with the 'unified field theory' and that
>photons are what make up all the EMS is the drastic differences
between the
>ways that IR, visible light, and radio signals behave in the world.
You can
>not treat them alike when you are designing equipment.

Yes, you can, if you think about it correctly.

The "drastic differences" are a result of the drastic differences in
the reaction of terrestrial substances to the diffferences in
frequency, not a fundamental difference in the properties of the
radiation.

> I can EM shield out radio interferience but that does
> nothing to stop gamma radiation or IR or light.

You can also shield out light, gama radiation and IR, using different
forms of shielding, those that work at the apropriate frequencies

>In the real world there are no 'black globes'.  I'd love to be able
>to phaze cancel heat.  I'd make a fortune in the air-conditioning
busness!

If I was you, I'd modify that to "there are no black globes yet".

Many people didn't believe you could cancel perceived and measured
_sound_  before it was conclusively demonstrated to be possible.

It's quite possible that one could phase cancel heat in atmosphere, if
you are only talking about infra-red _radiation_, but heat in
atmosphere is not just radiation.

In a vacuum, it may be much easier.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:43 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

ROFL!  FYI, beer keeps my ego down :)  Hey, the LINKS are there to the sites
*I* frequent, go check 'em out!  Anything I write'll probably be based very
heavily on those and a couple of different books that I have anyway...

Thanks for the comments!  I do believe that with the responses I've been
getting that I don't have to worry about the "wasting the bandwidth" bit
that I included in my post.

Thank you very much for everyone's support.  Stay tuned to my website and
the upcoming G:T bookS...yes, books.  I should also be doing pictures for
"First In" if all goes well, along with future G:T books in the pipe.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Todd A. Zircher <zirto@indepth.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse


>> Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site.
>> He's added a Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff.
>> I want Far Trader, if only for the pics....
>
>
>We don't want to feed his ego too much.  Well, at least
>until he finishes that tutorial link....  (hint, hint)
>
>--
>TAZ
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:14:20 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Tech levels (Revisted)

Phil Kitching wrote:

<stuff snipped>

> Garden Class
> Agricultural Satellite (FF&Sv2, spreadsheet by Andy Akins)
> Designed by Postmark Design Bureau
> 
> Statistics
>         Tons:             1,000,000std ( USL Thin Disc )
>         Volume:          14,000,000m3
>         Mass (L/C):       5,575,435t/5,575,332t
>         Dimensions:             562.2m x 562.2m x 56.8m
>         Size:                    12
>         Crew:                    59/65
>         Science:                 35
>         Cost:                18,609.782 MCr
>         Maintenance Points: 219,981
>         Tech Level:              15

<snip>

Great stuff, any chance of making it TL10 ? If so can I pinch it for a system
I wrote up ?

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:28:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: TAS Alien Encyclopedia

On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/6/99 8:28:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> greimann@geocities.com writes:
> 
> <<  (mine is 073, who are my neighbors?) i >>
> 
> I have #72 
> 
> Seth
> 
#074 - Here we are.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:33:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Real Traveller?

On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Clay Taylor wrote:

> <From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: G:T vs CT
> <Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
> you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>  
> 
> I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made Traveller 
> what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the Traveller 
> setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still playing 
> "Real Traveller", IMO.
> Clay

I always thought, 'real Traveller' was only played with house rules ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:43:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

I worked around the paradox this way:

Based on Schroedinger's Cat Theorem there exist multiple universes each
time a decision by time is involved. If you travel back in time and try to
alter the chain of events, a new universe dispatches from the old and
takes you with it. So in your view, you changed the course of history, but
in the view of others (also future ones) you changed your course
through history. 

At the same moment a duplicate of yours remains in the old timeline, who
reconsidered his actions or simply failed to change the past. So for the
time traveller there is no chance to realize if he made a real paradox
(which requests exactly one universe) or shifted parallel (which allows
multiple universes).

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:47:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Conley <estar@wrench.toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

> As for the analogy, currently beloved by CSC faculty, that programming will
> eventually be a concrete discipline like engineering bridges, I'm not so sure
> that that is the case. Bridge-building can be automated to a large extent.
> Building bridges is almost certainly reducible to a computer program, once we
> know enough variables. It's sort of like chess...there are fixed rules.
> 
> Building a bridge that's esthetically pleasing as well as functional...well,
> that's another thing entirely, and is where the skills of a truly great
> engineer come into play. But it's not the functionality that they're
> 'programming' into the bridge, but the esthetics.
> 
> It's more than likely that computer programming could turn out to be the same.
> 
> What if the best analogy is rather that it turns out to be more like writing
> novels? Something that can be taught, certainly. Something that can be done by
> a large number of people of average skill...yes, look at the history of bad
> literature. Something that changes with the whims of public taste, yes.
> Something that is difficult to do really well? Certainly. Look at the much
> scanter history of good literature.

What a lot of people don't realize that a computer programming is a two
part disicpline. The first (today) is the art of using tools to code a
program. The second is the knowledge of the problem you are trying to
code. In every good program there was some designer that knew how to do
the problem without the computer. To write accounting you need knowledge
of accounting to write a Trav character generator you neeed  a knowledge
of traveller.

In 3000 years the coding of a problem will be greatly automated. The
expertise will still come in how to use those greatly automated tools to
solve a problem. In addition many common problems will be solved. In the
imperium I am sure they have a series of components that solves the
problem of accounting and the accounting problem will have been understood
enough to be broken into reusable components.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #113
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 114



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Big honking computer
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Bootable Lawyers
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Big honking computer 
Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Photons and cancelling light waves
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Grandfather and the Aslans
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Droyne coyns
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Tech levels
Re: G:T vs CT 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:58:00 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Big honking computer

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> It has 9,260 200 MHz Pentium Pro processors, 573 gigabytes of
> system memory and 2.25 terabytes of disk storage.

And still can't run Windows 98!


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:09:26 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

Lars Adler wrote:
> 
> Based on Schroedinger's Cat Theorem there exist multiple universes each
> time a decision by time is involved. If you travel back in time and try to
> alter the chain of events, a new universe dispatches from the old and
> takes you with it. So in your view, you changed the course of history, but
> in the view of others (also future ones) you changed your course
> through history.
> 

Larry Niven wrote a short story based on this concept. In a later essay,
he explains why he doesn't like these "sideways in time" stories: they
screw up the laws of probability.

If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:09:34 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bootable Lawyers

Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu> said;
>I was reading
>http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9902/03/noself.lawyering.ap/ ,
>put me in mind of the idea of using robots for things like Legal, Admin,
>and Broker skills - skills that will have so many details different from
>planet to planet that having such a knowledge storehouse would be a
>great advantage, even if it could only advise instead of decide.

In the current campaign, the Computer expert is always atempting to use
"shareware lawyering programs" which are quite serviceable for filling in
various forms and such, but the detail Walter had in his message is right
out.

However, applying the knowledge base along *with* a character with Legal-2
and all those various laws from various planets become more understandable.
Maybe not to the extent of letting the characters know which NPCs to bribe
and how much, but perhaps routing around that whole sequence in "The
Traveller Adventure".

But don't forget to slap fairly high subscription fees for each new data
chit needed for each new planet.  And the shareware timer *will* tend to
run out at the most inopportune moment.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:30:56 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Jesse DeGraff spake unto us from On High:
>
>ROFL!  FYI, beer keeps my ego down :)  Hey, the LINKS are there to the
sites
>*I* frequent, go check 'em out!  Anything I write'll probably be based
very
>heavily on those and a couple of different books that I have anyway...
>
>Thanks for the comments!  I do believe that with the responses I've
been
>getting that I don't have to worry about the "wasting the bandwidth"
bit
>that I included in my post.
>
>Thank you very much for everyone's support.  Stay tuned to my website
and
>the upcoming G:T bookS...yes, books.  I should also be doing pictures
for
>"First In" if all goes well, along with future G:T books in the pipe.
>
>Jesse

Come on, Jesse, admit it. You've become an icon for Traveller artistry.
(Anyone wanna start a Jesse DeGraff fan club? I'm thinkin' semi-annual
dues will be one 6-pack or one pizza payable directly to Jesse)

I do have one question, Jesse. Since you're an icon now, when we want
more
artwork, do we click on you or double-click?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:30:42 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Big honking computer 

> Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> > It has 9,260 200 MHz Pentium Pro processors, 573 gigabytes of
> > system memory and 2.25 terabytes of disk storage.
> 
> And still can't run Windows 98!

Ain't that a shame?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:43:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)

>At 08:51 am 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 20:27 3-2-99 -0500, David Golden wrote:
>>>	The TML is really a "general Traveller" mailing list, and tries*
>to
>>>keep its content of at least passing interest to the majority of
>the
>>>members. More specialized lists are created for spin-offs or
>>>narrower-interest topics. Witness the tech mailing list, the
>writers
>>>mailing list, the ship designer's mailing list (lists?), the
>>>deckplans mailing list, the CT mailing list, the TNE mailing list
>...
>>>why not set up a PBEM mailing list?
>>
>>How do I get onto the tech and ship-designers' lists?
>
>	Hmm ... I think trav-tech-request@qrc.com? Or send "subscribe
>trav-tech" to majordomo@qrc.com? I dunno, I still call it the
>GDW-Beta list.
>

The Trav Tech list request address is trav-tech-request@qrc.com
send a message withthe word "subscribe" (without quotes, of course) in the
body of the message.

The Deckplan list and CT list are egroups and can be subscribed to at;
http://www.egroups.com/list/deckplans/
and
http://www.eGroups.com/list/classic-traveller

They are pretty inactive after the first spurt of traffic.

There was an ISBA list (one of the few I didn't subscribe to I think) but I
suspect it is not active at the moment either.

Pete






                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:46:46 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

> Well, I'm no expert, but I've done a little programming...

In theory, I am an expert, seeing as I do manuscript reviews on books about
programming and speak at software development conferences. In practice, I am
yet another warm body in the computer industry.

> Even now, things seem to be moving to "object-based" programming, which
> works with GUI (Graphical User Interface) or mouse-driven
> operating systems.

Actually, they're moving away from OO & GUI. OO is passe. Patterns are where
it's at. (This is tongue firmly in cheek - every new advance in computer
programming/software development has been built on top of the advance that
came before it. A lot of OO development relies on good structured/functional
development principles. OO, however, is not the latest advance, although
it's not yet the computer equivalent of an oil deposit)

If you want an interesting look at where computers might go, check out
http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm - natural language interfaces will
be a major innovation in the next few years probably. Holographics will be
the obvious choce for displays, whenever they're invented. The modern
"desktop" metaphor of interacting with a computer may disappear in our
lifetime though - the article gives a number of interesting reasons &
arguments.

The vision of talking to the computer and having the computer talk back will
someday become a reality (though probably only for a portion of all
human-computer interactions).

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Photons and cancelling light waves

>There was a comment a while back about not being able to cancel a light
>signal by phase shift. I seem to dimly remember that interferometry deals
>with precisely that - the interaction of two light waves to cancel one
>another out in places. This requires polarised or coherent light, so isn't
>really feasable for an Invisibility Device.
>
>My memory on this is dim, but tha above seems to make sense.
>
>MJD
>

That is what I understand as well but dealing with the visible light part of
the spectrum is not my normal field.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:09:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 07:08 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:33 pm 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>At 12:17 PM 2/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of
>light.
>>Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.  It is a radio signal.  
>
>
>	Exsqueeze me? Radar is an electromagnetic phenomenon, and hence is
>involves photons, just like visible light. Only difference is the
>energy of the photon. Look at any spectrum, you'll find radar on
>there as well as visible light ...
>
>>Radar is not photonic.  Light as far as I know can not be canceled
>with
>>phaze shift because all it's partical have the same charge (0).
>Electronic
>>signals have charge that can be canceled with their oposite.  The
>'oposite'
>>of an electron is a 'hole' which in effect is the lack of an
>electron rather
>>that a partical in its' own right.
>
>	You're really losing it now. Both radar and light are waveforms. You
>CAN cancel light with phase shift--that's how you get interference
>patterns, holograms, etc .... The problem with using the technique as
>stealth is what a previous poster mentioned--by the time your fancy
>stealth gear measures the incoming signal (via an antenna ...),
>determines the frequency, phase, and amplitude, and generates an
>exactly opposite signal, millions of wavecrests have already
>reflected back to the enemy, telling him exactly where you are.
>

First, several other people have said the the photonic model is not the best
way to model radar.  Second, today's electronics work at very high speeds.
I am not talking about digital.  I mean analog.  A radio intercepts and
processes radio waves in real time.  Responce time is much less than .5
wavelength in the radio/radar band, which is all that is required for phaze
canceling.  Light on the otherland is not a doable with today technology to
the extent that invisibility is posible.  If light, IR, could be canceled
macroscopically then airconditioning would need near 0 power and cost nearly
nothing.

>	It works better with sound because electronics are fast enough/sound
>is slow enough.
>
>
>>>>Disclaimer:  I do not nor have I ever worked with ECM systems but
>I have
>>>>designed or helped design various specialty filters over the years
>that
>>>>acomplish this.
>>>
>>>Likewise disclaimer, except that I don't have anything to do with
>RF filters
>>>either.
>
>	I'll disclaim the knowledge of RF filters. But I do know some
>fundamental physics. Radar is the same type of entity as visible
>light, which can be modelled either as a particle (the photon ...) or
>as a waveform, or even as a geometric ray, depending on the level of
>detail and what you're doing.
>

True, but those models are not to useful is systems design which is what I do.

>>>   b	The target emits vast quantities of IR.
>>
>>        Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that
>the
>>power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is.  We can't build
>>Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can
>not do.
>
>	This subject has been absolutely beat to death. It doesn't MATTER
>what the power plant is, so it doesn't matter that we can't build
>them. Just the power output. And we do know the power output of
>Traveller starships. That energy MUST eventually be radiated away
>from the vessel. Again, fundamental physics.
>
>	Even with your powerplant off, if it's inhabited the ship MUST be
>around 290K. And basic physics can tell you what it's radiating.
>Mostly IR. Ask Bruce Macintosh, one of our resident IR experts (as an
>IR astronomer, probably the most qualified member of this list to
>discuss passive sensors and space applications ...)


True, (I took part in that 'doing to death') the other part of this post
delt with a limited black globe effect.  That was what I was refering to.  A
device that absorbed only part of the spectrum to allow ships to appear cool
while using the absorbed energy to power its' systems without needing to use
the main power plant.  This post or part of the post has apparently been
sniped or separated form this.  I was brain storming at the time and the
order may have gotten rearranged.  Also if the grid can produce 'phase
shifted signals' to cancel incoming lidar like the original poster supposed
it could also produce a signal to cancel its' own ir signature.  I'm sorry
if I rambled or was not clear.  Or perhaps I am confussing posts and mixing
discussions.

Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the center of a 2
mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach 290K in any reasonable
time?  You are leaving out surface area and thermal mass.  The heat from a 4
man outpost will never heat 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and silicon to
290k.  If that were true the entire earth would have the same temperture as
the core and we'd be very dead.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:09:22 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 07:21 PM 2/10/99 +1300, you wrote:
>>The quantum mechanics of it are not real useful in designing real
>world
>>applications.
>
>You haven't heard of the SQuID ?
>Or the tunneling electron microscope ?
>Or even the basic FET, for that matter ?
>

Sorry, I design from off the shelf silicon.  I do not do basic research into
new types of simiconductors so again it depends on application.

>>EEs have their own mathamatical methods of modeling such
>>things that let us do our jobs.  Most of those methods deal with
>modeling
>>the properties of currents and those things that effect currents.
>
>Assuming that EE means "Elecrical Engineer" ....
>

Yes.

>Hmm, in power electronics, maybe.  I rarely ever used currents except

Power, industrial controls (my field), broadcast, communications, servos,
motors, hydrolics, and many other 'effect the real world' situations.

>when the TTL loads got high and we had to check fanouts. Now that TTL
>is out, even that's not a problem.
>

TTL is not 'out' in the control world, and fanout can still be a problem
even with cmos and its' other newer relatives in large systems.  Also track
length can be a facter when it approches .25 of system's clock wave lenght
and becomes an antenna.  Also propagation delay times can become critical
with gate loading and edge triggering for data latching.  All of these are
formulations that need to be checked or tested or better yet both in a new
design.  Enviromental effects also have their own set of calculations to be run.

Also when going from system to system you get into line attenuation, noise
limits, impedence matching, SWR, and EM interference.  All of these require
various modeling concepts of how currents move and interreact, to design for
and trouble shoot.  This is my day to day job.  Today it's motor controls
and line sycronisation.  Tomarrow it might be network communications
problems.  Welcome to the wide and varied world of controls and automation
design and maintainence.

>>One thing
>>that always gives me trouble with the 'unified field theory' and that
>>photons are what make up all the EMS is the drastic differences
>between the
>>ways that IR, visible light, and radio signals behave in the world.
>You can
>>not treat them alike when you are designing equipment.
>
>Yes, you can, if you think about it correctly.
>
>The "drastic differences" are a result of the drastic differences in
>the reaction of terrestrial substances to the diffferences in
>frequency, not a fundamental difference in the properties of the
>radiation.
>

True, very true, but by limiting you variables it greatly simplifies your
calculations.  You use one set for RF and another for IR and light.  This
greatly reduces formula complexity.  It also, unfortunately, get you to
thinking of them as very different things.

>> I can EM shield out radio interferience but that does
>> nothing to stop gamma radiation or IR or light.
>
>You can also shield out light, gama radiation and IR, using different
>forms of shielding, those that work at the apropriate frequencies
>

True, that is what I ment.

>>In the real world there are no 'black globes'.  I'd love to be able
>>to phaze cancel heat.  I'd make a fortune in the air-conditioning
>busness!
>
>If I was you, I'd modify that to "there are no black globes yet".
>

Very true.  A field that could phaze cancel instantaniously any frequency of
energy or convert it to one storable type of energy would in effect be a
black globe.  I do not want to even try to imagine the design problems in
the control and power systems in such a device.  Yuck!

>Many people didn't believe you could cancel perceived and measured
>_sound_  before it was conclusively demonstrated to be possible.
>

True, I have done it and phaze canceled signals in the rf band as well but
only inside circuits (RF mixers, demodulaters, active filters, and SSBSC
systems) not in the air.  If a person does not know the theory behind it, it
is tough to grasp.

>It's quite possible that one could phase cancel heat in atmosphere, if
>you are only talking about infra-red _radiation_, but heat in
>atmosphere is not just radiation.
>

Also true, had not thought of that.  The other componet is molecular motion.
Your inverted phaze ir would cause more of that type of 'heat' as it
canceled the IR.  You could end up with zero sum gain in total heat.  You
cure the desease but kill the patient.  I've run into design problem like
this before.

>In a vacuum, it may be much easier.
>

Yes, good point.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:16:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Grandfather and the Aslans

Joe Webb writes:

>Great post by  Hans, or repost as the case may be.

Thanks.

>I have a couple of nits, but since you probably heard them the first time
>I'll just alter what I need for MTU.

Not necessarily. I'd like to hear any objections you have.

>Of course I'll credit the esteemed Dr. Rancke-Madsen of the Department of
>Non-human Archeology, University of Gazulin, noted for his excellent work
>in the field of alien history and sociology .

Of course ;-).
 
>One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use Coyns in
>casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start casting in the
>first place?  Accidental discovery?

Originally the Droyne didn't need coyns to caste (which is why I propose
that the Ancient coyn set had another function, ie. prediction, hunt magic
and the like). When the Droyne went into a decline after the Final War, they
gradually lost the ability to caste. Note that it took them 225,000 years
to reach that point. Then Grandfather decided to help them and seized on
the coyns as a convenient tool. He taught those Droyne communities that
he could find about using coyns as a sort of mental crutch. On about 20
worlds they learned and remained Droyne. On the rest they failed to learn
and turned into Chirpers (Well, you know what I mean).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:56:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>Robert O'Connor writes:
>>>Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>>>TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>>>synchronised rolling ciphers).
>>
>> You can do that at TL 0
> 
>TL 0 on *his* scale excludes writing.

There's no tech level so low that you can't have writing. All you need is
an implement and a medium. A small pointed stick and a slab of clay, for
instance.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:34:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Droyne coyns

Carlos Alos-Ferrer writes:

>>From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
>><One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use 
>>Coyns in casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start 
>>casting in the first place?  Accidental discovery?>
> 
>They need the Coyns *now*. They didn't need them 300,009 years ago. 
>Then, after the final war, the surviving Droyne worlds started a long 
>recession. Most lost the ability to caste, and probably all would 
>have. Then, Grandfather returned 75,000 years ago, and introduced the 
>Coyns as an *aid* to guarantee that 20-odd selected worlds would not 
>lose the ability to caste.
> 
>AFAIK, that is already establishes as <ducking> canon.

Quite right, except that he tried introducing them to more than 20-odd
worlds. It just din't 'take' on all of them (Vanejen is an example).
_Alien Realms_ has it that there are actually two kinds of chirpers: Those
that can't caste, even with the aid of coyns, and those (much rarer) that
can caste if they get taught how to use coyns. I don't think that idea was 
folllowed up on in later versions.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:43:54 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

I can think of a couple of things that may have been forgotten in this 
discussion:

Somebody has to write the compilers.  Somebody has to write the 
automated tools.  Sure there will be other automated tools to assist 
in this, but what happens when a new processor comes out?  There 
may not be any tools to help.  And if there are, I would be willing to 
bet using it would be like pounding an ellipsoid peg in a round hole.

People can argue, "JAVA!!!"  Sure, Java is neat language ... but the 
Java language requires that a special program be written for the 
appropriate processor.  There are great visual tools for writing Java 
programs.  You don't even have to be good at programming (indeed 
some of them are quite nasty looking) but somebody had to write 
the VM that Java program runs on.  And some are much more 
efficient than others.

That is the reason Intel and the others try to keep Backwards 
Compatibility.  In the future, do you really think there is one 
processor model?  With all the different races and TLs and 
cultures?  In a perfect world (galaxy) maybe.  But since it is not 
perfect, you need someone who understands what a processor is 
and how it should respond and then write the tools so Codey 
Wannabee can write a Traveller Char Prog.

Just my 2cr.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:02:01 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Tech levels

AveNelso@aol.com writes:

>	Also, remember that the plague of Duskir significantly increased the
>proportion of Solomani to Vilani in all of the old Second Imperium.

This has been discussed several times on the list. I won't go into details,
but it's extremely unlikely to be true. The likeliest version I've seen is
that plagues significantly increased the proportions of Solomani to Vilani
on a few 1st Imperium worlds fairly close to Terra, and that the stories
from those few worlds, in the best tradition of urban legends, grew to
include the whole 2nd Imperium.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:11:03 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: G:T vs CT 

> 
> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor
> race
> 
> Yes, but coming up with 'good' alien races, and not humans in rubber suits,
> can put a big strain on your creativity.  After a while, the new races start
> looking like they dropped out of Star Trek.

There were charts floating around the web someplace for fast minor race 
generation.  You don't *need* detailed information on them until the players 
get *stuck* there for a few months, and you can develope it organically as 
needed.

> For one of my better races (at least well received) I used this trick.  They
> had a multisector empire nearly a million years ago, built with sublight
> ships.  For unknown, and to humans probably unknowable, reasons, they fell
> into barbarism.  That took care of plenty of worlds with next to no
> atmosphere or water, and being seperated for so long, each could have as
> distinct a culture and even physiology as I had time to think up.

Point is, you *don't* have to have everything done at once.  All you need to 
do is work on the 3 or 4 worlds closest to your starting point.  The rest can 
be developed as needed, a few thoughts here, a few thoughts there.  And if 
you're not ready to have the players go there yet, distract them with a red 
herring, misjump them to someplace that *is* developed, whatever.

> But, this is what I wanted to know.  The randomness of the CT system forces
> you to come up with ideas and situations.  The G:T system looks (at first
> and very quick) glance to be like the 2300AD system, which I loved.  Which
> one to use?  Both.

I haven't seen the G:T stuff yet.  My FLGS doesn't carry much more than 
Boredom: The Bludgeoning and Warhammer40K.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #114
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 115



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Grandfather and the Aslans 
Re: G:T vs. CT
Re: Plankwell-class BB (Long!)
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT
Re: G:T vs. CT
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)
Visions of the Future
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller 
Cry for help
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT
Re: GT worldbuilding
Re: Time Travel
Re: Bootable Lawyers
Product Alert
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)
Re: GT Worldbuilding
Re: Bootable Lawyers
Re: GT Worldbuilding
Re: Combat Support Element

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:14:52 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Grandfather and the Aslans 

> Great post by  Hans, or repost as the case may be.  I have a couple of
> nits, but since you probably heard them the first time I'll just alter what
> I need for MTU.  Of course I'll credit the esteemed Dr. Rancke-Madsen of
> the Department of Non-human Archeology, University of Gazulin, noted for
> his excellent work in the field of alien history and sociology .
> 
> One thing does bother me.  Since it is necessary for Droyne to use Coyns in
> casting how did they pre-droyne primitives (Chirpers?) start casting in the
> first place?  Accidental discovery?

My take, based on what I've read in the canon sources, suggests that the 
mainstream Droyne devolved from their previos capacities during the Final War. 
 A lot of the canon sources talks about genetically engineered viri attacking 
Droyne.  Some of these could be mutagenic as well.  Genetic drift over 300,000 
years could account for a bit of the rest.

Perhaps somewhere is a Droyne culture that *doesn't* need coyns to caste.  I'm 
not sure about the ones on the planet next door to Grandfather's in his pocket 
universe.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:21:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: G:T vs. CT

Joe Webb writes:

>So, do I alter the population and tech level rules in First In, or
>do we accept the fact that the Spinward Marches were designed using
>less realistic rules?  (This isn't the only case in which First In
>will give you noticeably different results from the Classic Traveller
>system, either.)
> Jon Zeigler
> 
> 
> There is currently a debate on the playtest of First In.  Using a more
> realist set of world/system generating, you get worlds that dont' match
> Traveller canon.  Supposedly there are 125 systems in the Spinward Marches
> alone that violate the proposed generation system.  While some can be
> explained away, many more cannot.  And this is only for one sector, how many
> more star system are like this across the canon sectors created by CT rules?
> 
> I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
> generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary to get
> them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living in exotic
> atmospheres!
> 
> What does anyone else think?  More realistic or stick with canon or
> something in between?
> 
> Joe
> 
Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>I for one would like to see a more realistic rules set for system
>>generation.  I say alter the canon sectors by the minimum necessary to get
>>them into compliance, but alter them.  Down TL 2 barbarians living in exotic
>>atmospheres!
> 
>TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native minor 
>race, 99% likely to be *nonhuman*.

It's not the low-tech worlds with exotic atmospheres that really bug me. As
you say, they could be aliens. And it's not the no-population garden worlds
either. It's the low-population garden worlds and the high-population
hell-holes. It's the fact that the population distribution is _exactly_ the
same for _all_ types of worlds. 
 
>You can *always* come up with a reason for things being the way they are if 
>you look hard enough.  You just gotta let go of your humanocentricism and let 
>your imagination *fly*.  Remember, we're talking alien planets here, *not* 
>your won back yard...

If I told you that I rolled a 00 on my percentage dice in my latest RPG
session, I don't think you'd find that unlikely enough to disbelieve me.
But if I told you that I rolled 50 '00's in 100 rolls, you would propably
suspect that either my dice are crooked or I'm lying. it's not any single
world, it's the accumulation of unlikely worlds that bothers me.

Yes, you can come up with explanations of most UWP combinations, but how
many _different_ explanations can you come up with?
 
Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> writes:

>Homogenization is good for milk, but for Traveller?

I'm not saying that the correlation between habitability and population
should be 1, but I am saying that it should be higher than 0! 

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>

>Even 'garden worlds' can be traps.  They might have all the necessary things 
>on them for human life, but still be inhospitable for some reason or another, 
>like, the primary is a flare star, or a deadly disease lives there,

That works for worlds with no population at all. Unfortunately most worlds
in traveller has _some_ population, showing that it is possible to survive
there.

>or it 
>could just be set aside for future Imperial expansion when the time is right.

That works for a limited number of planets inside large interstellar empires.
But what about garden worlds in neutral space? A planet with even fair
living conditions is a very valuable commodity. It takes someone immensely
rich (like the Emperor) to set aside such a resource for later generations.
  
And what's your take on near-empty garden worlds in Aslan space?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:22:41 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Plankwell-class BB (Long!)

Doug;

Great post! Now you got to do a Tigress, and a Kokirrik (which I consider to
be the better BB in CT...)!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:40:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT

Leonard Erickson writes:

>It shows the usual bit with the Earth forming 4.8 billion years ago,
>and life starting shortly after it got cool enough. And than at 3.6
>billion years ago it has the first blue-green algae. Ok fine. That's
>when we started getting O2 in the atmosphere. 
> 
>But what got me was the next item. 1.2 billion years ago. That's when
>Earth finally had a *year round* oxygen atmosphere (and soon after a
>permanent ozone layer). Until then we only had an oxygen atmosphere in
>the summer, and not much of one at that.
> 
>I'd never encountered that "detail" before. And it got me thinking.
>That's an *awfully* long time in the history of the planet. I wonder
>how many "tainted", "tainted thin", "thin", etc atmospheres are simply
>due to the planet being young? It gives us another possible explanation
>for some of the weird atmospheres.

I had similar thoughts when I saw that detail in GURPS:Dinosaurs, but I
don't think so. The definition of thin to dense atmospheres means that
there is enough free oxygen present for a human to survive on it without
a compressor. There is some doubt that this was the case even 300 million
years ago (though GURPS:Dinosaurs does say that this is debated and that
anyone who wants their timetravelling humans to be able to breathe on
visits to the dawn of dinosaurs are free to assume that they can.

An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.

I'm more interested in the corrolary: Any Traveller world with a thin to
dense atmosphere will have a fairly mature ecosphere.
 
MJ Dougherty writes:

>As to the world generation debate; one of the biggest headaches while we
>were doing BTC was trying to explain the billions of people who seem to
>flock to crappy waterless hell-holes, bypassing gardens of verdant wonder.
>Having a few worlds like that to expain is good for creativity. But overall,
>the system in First In should legislate against them (though allowing it to
>happen occasionally) and just accept that te Spinward Marches is a funny old
>place. After all, there already are good reasons for all of the
>non-correlating worlds in the Marches.

My preferrence would be to compromise: Spend half an hour on each world
trying your damdest to come up with some explanation that didn't strain
credulity too much and hadn't been done to death (One example of this is
the 'recent nuclear war/meteor strike/deadly disease has reduced population
by a factor 1000' explanation; it works once in a while, but it can get
really old real fast). If you can't, than throw a die against a number
you decide on beforehand based on just how odd the world UWP is; if you
make the roll, try again and come up with something; if not, make the
smallest chance that will make the UWP make sense.

Btw. sometimes it isn't the UWP in itself that is odd. sometimes it is the
UWP when contrasted with canonical history. For instance, the population
levels on Durendal and Hofud are way too low to fit with their history
(unless you use the nuclear war/etc. explanation).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:53:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: G:T vs. CT

Joseph Kimball writes:

>Another thing to remember is that by definition, Tech Level is the
>level of PRODUCTION capability, and does not necessarily indicate the
>technical knowlege of the population.  There are many towns in the US
>midwest that would be TL2 or 3 if you look at production capability

That's not a definition that holds water, though. Think of all the worlds
with high tech levels and too few people to sustain such a technology. It
takes quite a few people to run an industrialized society. My preferred
definition is that TL is the level of technology in use by a majority of
the population. In many cases that would be the same as the production
capability, but not all. A mining camp would for example be the TL of 
the equipment they brought with them.

Clay Taylor writes:

>If you already have details and an explaination worked out for the world 
>in question then don' t change it just because of new rules.  If all you 
>have is a set of numbers on a world that are based on canon then I see 
>no reason to keep it that way.

I almost agree. There is one good reason to stick with canon as long as
the canon makes sense: continuity and self-consistency. But if the canon
_dosen't_ make sense, or makes sense only at the cost of really stretching
the ol' willing suspension of disbelief, then change it once and for all
and stick to that forthwith.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:56:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

Look at what they thought 1999 would be like in 1975, i.e., "Space:1999".
- --Clif

>After all, look what they thought 1999 would be like in 1962...
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:58:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Visions of the Future

The lightning bolt thing was done to death down here near Cocoa Beach back
in the early to mid 80's.

- --Clif
>
>"Honey, I forgot to pick up my silver jumpsuit (with golden lightning bolt
>insignia) down at the local autoclean.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:02:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Where would we order these books from?

- --Clif

> Stay tuned to my website and
>the upcoming G:T bookS...yes, books.  I should also be doing pictures for
>"First In" if all goes well, along with future G:T books in the pipe.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Todd A. Zircher <zirto@indepth.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 6:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
>
>
>>> Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site.
>>> He's added a Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff.
>>> I want Far Trader, if only for the pics....
>>
>>
>>We don't want to feed his ego too much.  Well, at least
>>until he finishes that tutorial link....  (hint, hint)
>>
>>--
>>TAZ
>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:05:32 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller 

>>I wouldn't go that far. Otherwise, all our user interfaces
>>would look like geisha girls.  :-)
>
>And that would be a problem because... ;-)

Distraction...???

>What if the best analogy is rather that it turns out to be more like 
>writing novels? Something that can be taught, certainly. 

As opposed to programming today which you are born into. :)

>Something 
>that can be done by a large number of people of average skill...yes, 
>look at the history of bad literature. Something that changes with >the 
whims of public taste, yes. Something that is difficult to do >really 
well? Certainly. Look at the muchscanter history of good >literature.

I agree. Programming will however always be about problem-solving 
therefor requiring the same skills but the method (language) you use to 
implement the solution is irrelevant (you can alway describe any concept 
in any language, human or computer).

The programmer that can solve the problem is a better programmer than
the one that knows a lot about computer language but can't see the 
solution.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:06:03 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cry for help

Can anyone give me any extended data on Regina? I got the basics but 
Lack all the good stuff (i.e. temp, length of day, some history 
maybe...) and would like to use canonical figures if possible for my 
next adventure (yes, I sometimes _play_ Traveller :).

Is there any data on the web?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:07:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Watch out for the iconoclasts, Jesse!

(Does this mean that someone that doesn't dig GUI is an iconoclast?)

- --Clif

P.S.:  I hear the benefits of being an icon are good...  Just don't become
an alcy under all the pressure...

>Come on, Jesse, admit it. You've become an icon for Traveller artistry.
>(Anyone wanna start a Jesse DeGraff fan club? I'm thinkin' semi-annual
>dues will be one 6-pack or one pizza payable directly to Jesse)
>
>I do have one question, Jesse. Since you're an icon now, when we want
>more
>artwork, do we click on you or double-click?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:12:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> 
> An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.

Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted, low
oxygen content'.
> 
> I'm more interested in the corrolary: Any Traveller world with a thin to
> dense atmosphere will have a fairly mature ecosphere.

Or has been terraformed.  Any world < size 5 (and some size 5) probably _has_
to have been terraformed, it aren't massive enough to hold on to water vapor
over geologic time.  Size 3 and below can't even hold on to oxygen or nitrogen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: GT worldbuilding

SD Mooney writes:

>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>After all; you don't get to choose what the world lying at that ideal
>>trade-link point will be like in real life, do you?
> 
>You dealt with the one that bugged my (Dawnworld) well enough ;-) 

Except that it has a breathable atmosphere, which means a far more advanced
ecology.

And let me hasten to admit to a personal agenda here. Two years ago I wrote
an adventure set in the Sword Worlds in the year 71 for Imperium Games'
adventure writing contest. Part of that adventure was set on a Dawnworld
much different from the one in BtC. The adventure went into a black hole,
but I still hope to get it published somewhere else. 

However, even without that I would still be of the opinion that a
breathable atmosphere requires a flourishing flora and fauna.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:41:23 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Time Travel

> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:09:26 -0700
> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
> Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
> 
> If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
> outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
> more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
> concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.
> 

My take on this has been that all potential timelines are not created
equal: some differences are more significant than others.

When you woke up this morning, did your left foot strike the ground first,
or your right? Who can remember? Does it matter? My answer is "No". At the
moment that you stepped out of bed two timelines were created, but when
nothing further came of it the timelines remerged -- like virtual
particles, the timelines were created and destroyed too quickly to notice.

This assumes that a fair amount of minor sideslipping goes on all the time,
probably disguised as lapses of memory. You think you left your glasses on
the desk, but they turn up in your pocket anyway. Memory lapse, or slight
shift in timeline? with an equally puzzled "you" in another timeline
wondering how the glasses wound up on the desk instead of in his pocket.

Taken one step farther: the Illuminated Masters (for reasons unknown but
nefarious) have mined your bed last night. The "you" that stepped out on
the left foot is blown to smithereens (as intended), the "you" that stepped
out on the right foot misses the tripwire and gets to think, "Where did
that Claymore come from?" in time to look down and avoid immediate
disaster. Now there are two separate timelines, or will be until the
Illuminati catch up with you and finish the job. Like virtual particles
created at the event horizon of a black hole, one escapes and one is
destroyed.

You are left with an image of timelines like fractally fuzzy skeins of
yarn, interweaving, merging and diverging, until a significant event comes
to split the bundle into separate paths. Some of these separations merge
again farther down the line (as when the Illuminati "correct" your
continued existance), some continue indefinitely.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:03:14 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Bootable Lawyers

>But don't forget to slap fairly high subscription fees for each new data
>chit needed for each new planet.  And the shareware timer *will* tend to
>run out at the most inopportune moment.


How about this instead - it is a fully functional 'demo' of the legal
program.  This means that everything appears to work well, except that none
of the documentation it produces, or arguements it makes, is legally
admissable until the user fees are paid.

And it takes someone with a legal or admin of 1 or better to be able to
identify the clause that invalidates the documentation until the fees are
paid.  Forgery skill would allow the altering of the paperwork to allow them
to pass as legitimate.  Computer skill would allow for the bypassing of the
shareware routine entirely.

Speaking of computer skill - how do people feel about breaking the skill up
into hardware and software components?

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:03:53 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Product Alert

Just noticed this in my local gaming store ...

    Letters Of Marque: Starship Deckplans

... by Holistic Design Inc ... bearing the logos  "Noble Armada",
"Fading Suns"  and  "Approved for use with TRAVELLER".   Contents
are deckplans for 5 ships (escort, explorer, two frigates, and  a
liner) on 10 sheets (17" by 22"), no grid but scale  is  1" = 2m.
No stats or write up included.  Cover  price  $14.95  (bought  at
Orc's Nest, London for 10.99).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:45:01 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Guess Dom didn't realize that I'd already sent a message to the TML about it
>;)

I didn't - I get the TML in digest form and sent the email the same session
as I downloaded the digest with the plug :-/ But don't let that stop you
visiting Jesse's site anyway....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:53:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Lists (was Re: PBEM)

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:

>The Deckplan list and CT list are egroups and can be subscribed to at;
>http://www.egroups.com/list/deckplans/
>and
>http://www.eGroups.com/list/classic-traveller
>
>They are pretty inactive after the first spurt of traffic.

Don McKinney posted that there is some kind of problem with CT-Starships at
the moment...

>There was an ISBA list (one of the few I didn't subscribe to I think) but I
>suspect it is not active at the moment either.

I think that the list is there, but it is very inactive. I don't really
expect it to pick up until T5.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:26:39 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

Following the thread it seems that GT ends up with much different 
worlds...I haven't gotten BtC yet...but is it radically different from 
the GDW supplement on the Marches? 
Mike

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:41:19 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Bootable Lawyers

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Speaking of computer skill - how do people feel about breaking the skill up
> into hardware and software components?

Why stop there ? Networks, AI, Analist, Programmer etc ...
How about splitting Engineering into Civil, Mech, or Elec ?
Medical into Pharmalogical, Surgary, GP, Consoltant, or Specialist ?

<abstracting (ie not directed at Douglas, but at all in general)>

Computer skill covers a large subject area, but then so do a lot of the skills
in traveller. If your group has computer specialities then IYTU it would
probably be good to split computing into further subsets, as this might
increase the enjoyment of Traveller. IYTU you might keep Medical as a all
encompassing skill, as the people in your group are not medics, but what of
the Traveller group who play at the local hospital, whould they split medical
into supsets, and keep Computer as one ?

IYTU YMMV.

</abstracting>

My pennies worth is, if it gives you more enjoyment to do it, go for it IYTU,
but to add it to the rules, no.

Ewan

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:34:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

Michael McKeown writes:
> Following the thread it seems that GT ends up with much different 
> worlds...I haven't gotten BtC yet...but is it radically different from 
> the GDW supplement on the Marches? 

BtC is basically consistent with canonical maps of the Marches.  The discussion
has to do with First In, which uses somewhat plausible physics and thus results
in much of the spinward marches being implausible or impossible.  Of course,
this same discussion arose when BtC was being written (in that many worlds
there don't make a whole lot of sense) and none of the impossible worlds were
fixed at that time.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:44:38 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

Charles Prevatte  wrote:

>>They all have sufficient fuel for two successive jumps? If so, they are
>>giving a lot of tonnage away to fuel that they could otherwise be using
>>for their real jobs.

>Not necessarily.  If they are J-3 capable and arrive by a 1 hex jump with
>full tanks they could in theory jump 2 more times without refueling.  Many
>of the combat ships of the Empirium are jump 3 capable without drop tanks
>and with them they could jump 3 in and have 3 hexes of jump to use if needed.

Sure. now, looking at _Shattered Ships_ (I know it's not the best
source), the auxiliary ships seem to have one less jump number than the
equivalent TL Battleship. So, for a TL15 fleet, to arrive with J-1 fuel
left in the tankers ties your fleet to J-2. That's a whole lot of
operational-level mobility that you just gave up.

Some other posters pointed out that the tankers could refuel themselves
and the other auxiliaries. How long does this take?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #115
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 116



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Combat Support Element
[none]
GT:FI
Re: G:T vs. CT
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Consolidated Sector Information
Re: 
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Redoing the UWP Data...
ct-starships list
Sustainable TL's (Was Re: G:T vs. CT)
GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
GT : Plankwell Class Dreadnaught - 101st BatRon
GT : Midu Agashaam Destroyer - 101st BatRon
GT : 400ton Fuel Shuttle - 101st BatRon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:48:57 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

>> Hey, If I close the Combat Support element I can kill them while opening
>> with the enemy battleline. Divide and conquer.
>> 
>> Anyway, the enemy battleline can't take whatever I'm defending away from
>> me. The troopships can.
>
>But while you're whacking out easy soft targets, the Intruder's main battle 
>line can be softening up your orbital defenses and coming up your kilt.  He 
>may not be able to land and hold more than a small island for a beachhead, but 
>he'll be able to keep *YOU* away from home pretty easily.  And if he does some 
>creative resupplying, he can always fuel up a courier ship and go bring in 
>reinforcements.  You, on the other tentacle, having no jump-capable ships, are 
>*stuck*.  How long can you breathe vacuum?

Cool. Where is the enemy fleet going to wait? The mainworld? Even
assuming that there's much of a fleet left after the deep meson
experience, I can take on fuel at the GG, and send for help after taking
out the enemy tankers, transports and his assault troops. 

Or the fleet could try and hold the Gas Giant. Fine. I'll fly back to
the mainworld, and send for reinforcements from there.

Or both? Hey, fine by me. If my enemy wants to ignore Lanchester's
equation and split his forces, I'll clean up.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:22:52 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: [none]

Christopher B. Thrash writes:
"When you woke up this morning, did your left foot strike the 
ground first, or your right? Who can remember? Does it matter? 
My answer is "No". At the moment that you stepped out of bed 
two timelines were created, but when nothing further came of 
it the timelines remerged -- like virtual particles, the 
timelines were created and destroyed too quickly to notice."

	I am an atheist, which may bias my opinions, but I
	really find it hard to believe that the universe cares
	about what humans think is important. Perhaps a speck 
	of dust winds up in a different place depending on which 
	foot landed first: now where is that fleck? This is a
	paradox whether it is the location of a fleck of dust 
	or the destruction of a planet with 5 billion 
	ape-descended life forms that still think digital 
	watches are a pretty neat idea.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:22:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: GT:FI

Greetings, All,

As I am not currently a subscriber to Pyramid (still waiting for them 
to receive and process my check), I haven't had a chance to review 
the playtest for GT:FI.  I do have two major questions regarding 
First In, though:

1) Can I take a UWP from a canonical source and develop sensible 
extended system details from that (ala MTRef or LBB6)?

2) Can I take a UWP from a canonical source and develop world details 
from that (ala WBH)?  

If so, I can use it without problem, as I will not be violating the 
canonical universe (for those campaigns set in the OTU.)  If not, 
then I can use it for an unofficial TU, but I probably won't in my 
OTU-based campaigns.

My uninformed input:  I would prefer to have the ability to take a 
UWP from a canonical source and use First In to give it the world 
detail, based on the updated scientific information available today.  
It doesn't solve the perceived problems of the older star 
system/mainworld generation rules, but it also doesn't invalidate 20 
years of hard work.

Anything else it can do is icing on the cake.

Either way, I'm looking forward to owning a copy, when it comes out.  
:)

Thanks,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:33:11 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: G:T vs. CT

> >Another thing to remember is that by definition, Tech Level is the
> >level of PRODUCTION capability, and does not necessarily indicate the
> >technical knowlege of the population.  There are many towns in the US
> >midwest that would be TL2 or 3 if you look at production capability
> 
> That's not a definition that holds water, though. Think of all the worlds
> with high tech levels and too few people to sustain such a technology. It
> takes quite a few people to run an industrialized society. My preferred
> definition is that TL is the level of technology in use by a majority of
> the population. In many cases that would be the same as the production
> capability, but not all. A mining camp would for example be the TL of 
> the equipment they brought with them.

Both you and him have points.  Not ones that are mutually exclusive IMO.   A
TL 8 world in the 57th century is probably only going to be barely
recognizable today, technology wise, and a TL16 one probably unimaginable (if
it's being done justice).  The TL of a world can't be the sum technical
knowledge... that would be ridiculous.  The top range of *that* would probably
be the highest commonly available in the vicinity. The independantly maximum
sustainable would seem to make the most sense.  There would have to be a
duration of some kind, too.  Maybe have the definition of tech level vary
according to population size?  Any Low-pop planet, it's the most commonly used
TL?  Higher than that, it's the maximum sustainable?  Low-pop planets cut off
from trade, supply, whatever will quickly fall to what they can sustain
(probably pretty low unless there's *some* kind of infrastructure).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:33:09 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

> If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
> outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
> more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
> concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.

Some universes might be more likely than others.  Even so, isn't this
preferable to paradoxes?  Unless, of course, u just forbid time travel (which
is kinda heavy handed IMO).  It hasn't happened yet (except forward) IMTU,
though i leave the possibility open in misjumps (though hasn't happened yet).
Besides, you can then run or play a Sliders-type campaign, if u and/or the Ref
so desire  : )  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:33:06 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Consolidated Sector Information

> Timeline Abbreviations:
> 	"CT" = Classic Timeline (approx. 1100 to 1115)
> 	"RT" = Rebellion Timeline (approx. 1117 to 1130)
> 	"M0" = Milleu Zero Timeline (approx. -5 to 30) 
> 	"VT" = Virus Timeline (approx. 1201)

This is a nit, but strictly speaking, all of these are in the same "timeline."
Maybe "timeframe?"

Also, i'd go w/ "NE" for "New Era," instead of VT, as Virus has largely
receded by the 1200s (at least as compared to 1130-1200), excepting possibly
the black curtain (though that's just speculation).  My old campaigns went for
almost 2 years and they only ran into Virus 6 or 7 times (and most of them in
the military campaign, excluding the Promise adventures), though i was
prepping for something big (the "society" on Larspri/Dethenes (0408/Old
Expanses).  I suspect my upcoming campaigns will be about the same, though
this time, i'll probably get to implement the adventures this time... heh heh.

YMMV. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:38:42 -0800
From: "Jesse LaBranche" <Vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: 

> I am an atheist, which may bias my opinions, but I
> really find it hard to believe that the universe cares
> about what humans think is important. Perhaps a speck
> of dust winds up in a different place depending on which
> foot landed first: now where is that fleck? This is a
> paradox whether it is the location of a fleck of dust
> or the destruction of a planet with 5 billion
> ape-descended life forms that still think digital
> watches are a pretty neat idea.
>Ian


    Don't take this offensively Ian, but being an atheist do you find that
the "Universe Cares" about anything? I'm under the impression that you'd see
it as non-sentient. In that case, the effect of two timelines could be a
part of it as much as a pebble changing the course of a river.
    I mean a river doesn't care whether there's a pebble in it either, but
that pebble can affect the entire universe. There have been a LOT of books
written on such subjects. Personally, I like the idea mentioned by the
previous poster though.

Later.

Jesse.
vanquer@email.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:33:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

> Yes, there are differences between Visual C++ and Visual Basic in
performance.
> But we're sort of like two cavemen sitting around arguing about which color
> flint will be used for the tools to construct the Space Station.

LOL.  That's a good analogy.  And funny, too. ; )

Traveller computers (especially those w/ organic computer cores, etc) are
probably completely unlike anything we're familiar with now, which would mean
the same thing for the software....


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:41:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Redoing the UWP Data...

Okay,

Again, I haven't seen GT:First In yet, but I do have a suggestion. 
I've heard several people talking about the difficulties they have
with worlds designed under the old system, and wanting to pursue
converting them under the suggested GT:First In rules.  What does
this mean?  What kind of changes would this entail?

Discussion is good, but an example would be worth a lot more to me 
than certain old threads being rehashed.  Thus, I have a suggestion:  
Could someone who supports the idea of converting the older maps to 
the new system provide the list with an example subsector (or sector, 
if you feel adventurous) of either Spinward Marches or Solomani Rim, 
converted under the GT:First In rules?  This is, of course, assuming 
that such will not violate the playtest agreement.  If so, then when 
First In is released, would someone be willing to give this a shot?

Suggested conversion criteria:

1)  Try to keep as close to the original UWP stats as possible
without stepping outside the GT:First In system.  That way, if
something can exist under the GT:First In system, we don't have to
change that part of canon.  (More consistency with the previous 20 
years hard work.)

2)  If something within the UWP must be changed due to the new 
system (and that seems to be the gist of this thread), set an order 
of priority for preserving the original information.  I would suggest 
the following, in order from most important NOT to change, to least 
important:

a. System Presence
b. Physical Characteristics of mainworld
c. Physical Characteristics of the rest of the system
d. The Rest of the UWP

Short but simple.  More detail might be provided by others' input on 
this criteria list.

With an example, it would be easier for me to see the impact the
suggestion of redoing the UWPs would have on the OTU.  After that, I
can give a much more informed opinion on this matter.  Until then,
this seems like the same old "flawed world generation" thread, 
disguised as a GT vs CT discussion.

Thoughts?  Ideas?  Suggestions?  Comments?

Thanks for listening to my simple request.  I appreciate your time, 
and I now return you to your normally scheduled thread, already in 
progress...

Regards,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:51:59 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: ct-starships list

The ct-starships list appears to be working again, I've been able to
post, and the latest digest has finally been sent.

If you're one of the proud who believe that High Guard and Trillion
Credit Squadron are the best ways to design starships for Traveller,
join the discussion!

ct-starships-request@egroups.com
or 
http://www.egroups.com


DonM.
- --
===========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist              dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems            (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                            (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVII Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org      (217) 469-9917 = 
===========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:00:52 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Sustainable TL's (Was Re: G:T vs. CT)

On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> Both you and him have points.  Not ones that are mutually exclusive IMO.   A
> TL 8 world in the 57th century is probably only going to be barely
> recognizable today, technology wise, and a TL16 one probably unimaginable (if
> it's being done justice).  The TL of a world can't be the sum technical
> knowledge... that would be ridiculous.  The top range of *that* would probably
> be the highest commonly available in the vicinity. The independantly maximum
> sustainable would seem to make the most sense.  There would have to be a
> duration of some kind, too.  Maybe have the definition of tech level vary
> according to population size?  Any Low-pop planet, it's the most commonly used
> TL?  Higher than that, it's the maximum sustainable?  Low-pop planets cut off
> from trade, supply, whatever will quickly fall to what they can sustain
> (probably pretty low unless there's *some* kind of infrastructure).
> 
> 
> Gary
> 

	So, how about the maximum sustainable TL is AVG(TL,(Pop UWP/2))?
So, your airless rockball TL15 minig station with 30 people on it, if "cut
off" (six months?) start dropping a TL every quarter until they hit TL8.
Which means amongst other things, that those snazzy TL 14 vaccsuits all be
came un-servicable two years before they bottomed out.

	Or is that not a big enough plunge?

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:50:12 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Here's the Flagship of the 101st Batron:


200000ton Kokirrak class Dreadnaught, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 10 x Helm, 10 x Navigation, 33 x Commo/Sensor,
 6 x Screens, 813 x Engineering, 1002 x Gunnery, 20 x Stewards,
 21 x Medical, 10 x Computer, 20 x Flight
 Total Crew = 1946

Specifications:
 200000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 60000, PD 4, +14 size mod, 192399.932 MCr,
 3877983 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical
 Emissions Cloaking, 10 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 400
 Utility, 67908 Maneuver, 10000 Powered Jump, 80000 Jump Fuel (20000
 for Jump 1), 416 Fuel Processor (24 hrs to process), 1150 Staterooms
 (1050 Crew, 100 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 50 Low Berth (200
 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 20 Sickbay, 5 Lab, 1024 Nuclear Damper (55
 miles), 13000 Meson Screen (DR 101782), 4000 Cargo, 3149 Power Plant
 (125960 MW output, 20 MW excess), 2 TL 12 AESA scan 50 (15 spaces,
 0 MW), 2 TL 12 PESA scan 50 (15 spaces, 0 MW), 2 TL 12 Radscanner
 scan 47 (20 spaces, 0 MW), 4 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (2 spaces,
 0 MW), 50 Brig(s), 5 Complete Workshop(s), 20000 sq ft Conference
 Hall(s), 10 x 50 tons capacity Space Dock (assorted small craft),
 730 turrets, 120 bays - 200 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 200 Triple
 Sandcaster Turrets, 50 Missile Bays, 20 PAW Bays, 50 Meson Gun Bays,
 1 Spinal Meson Gun-100 (3600000MJ, 120000 MW), 330 PAW-1 Turrets
 (360MJ, 3960 MW), 30 Double Fusion Gun Turrets (1980 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 2952866.53 tons, LMass 2974866.53 tons  (Estimated
 carried craft mass = 2000 tons), EMass 2848866.53 tons (less fuel),
 LMass 2870866.53 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0 kph),
 Acceleration - 2.3G Empty, 2.28G Loaded, 2.38G Empty (less Fuel),
 2.37G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 Spinal Meson Gun-100, 3600000MJ : 240000 (386160 km) 1/2 range,
              610000 (981490 km) max range, 6d x 25000(!) damage
 PAW-1 Turrets, 360MJ : 2500 (4023 km) 1/2 range,
              6300 (10137 km) max range, 6d x 300 damage
 Fusion Gun : 4200 (6758 km) 1/2 range, 12600 (20273 km)
              max range, 6d x 500 damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 64.34 tons, 7.5 spaces, 39.49565 MCr
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 75.71 tons, 7.5 spaces, 120.27045 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 125 tons, 10 spaces, 50.025 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 47 , 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power


The Kokirrak class dreadnaught is one of the more common classes of
capital ships in service in the Spinward Marches; a total of four
BatRons of this type serve on permanent station, with harbor
assignments at Rhylanor, Regina, Jewell and Mora.  Generally, one
squadron of Kokirraks is dispersed into independent ships with
ancillary escorts.  On patrol, the ships combine training operations
with routine patrols and reaction operations.

The Kokirrak is a preferred ship for flagship operations due to its
extensive admiral's quarters, which include command and communications
equipment, as well as entertainment chambers.  The ship is capable of
controlling a large fleet engagement within a system, as well as
holding its own in battle; the combination of fleet controller and
line-of-battle ship makes it an asset in any space combat situation.

Troops: Normally the Kokirraks do not carry troops. It is possible to
install modular quarters for up to 2000 troops (usually only 1000 are
carried) in the cargo hold.  A squadron of eight Kokirraks can carry
between 8000 and 16000 troops, or the equivalent of a reinforced
division.

Black Globe Generators: This class of dreadnaught, when originally
designed and constructed, mounted black globe force field generators.
Over the years, various ships have suffered black globe generator
failures, and the devices have not been replaced.  When encountered,
there is an approximately 50% chance that the ship will mount a
functioning black globe.

The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial
Service, and are now being phased out of service.  Within the last
decade (approx 1107) several ships have been disposed of to other
services such as the scouts, and to other governments, including
sector navies and client-states in the Spinward border regions of the
Imperium.

- - From Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships, (c) 1981 Marc W. Miller

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:04 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Plankwell Class Dreadnaught - 101st BatRon

Here's the main battleship for the 101st BatRon:


200000ton Plankwell class Dreadnaught, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 10 x Helm, 10 x Navigation, 33 x Commo/Sensor,
 6 x Screens, 787 x Engineering, 892 x Gunnery, 4 x Stewards,
 11 x Medical, 10 x Computer, 10 x Flight
 Total Crew = 1774

Specifications:
 200000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 66000, PD 4, +14 size mod, 212589.901 MCr, 3877983 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 10 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 400 Utility,
 65578 Maneuver, 10000 Powered Jump, 80000 Jump Fuel (20000 for
 Jump 1), 416 Fuel Processor (24 hrs to process), 1000 Staterooms (950
 Crew, 50 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 26 Low Berth (104 capacity,
 0 Low Passage), 10 Sickbay, 2 Lab, 512 Nuclear Damper (50 miles),
 20000 Meson Screen (DR 157477), 1000 Cargo, 3170 Power Plant
 (126800 MW output, 20 MW excess), 2 TL 12  AESA scan 50 (15 spaces,
 0 MW), 2 TL 12 PESA scan 50 (15 spaces, 0 MW), 2 TL 12 Radscanner
 scan 45 (9 spaces, 0 MW), 4 EW Suites (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (2 spaces,
 0 MW), 20 Brig(s), 5 Complete Workshop(s), 4000 sq ft Conference
 Hall(s), 5 x 50 tons capacity Space Dock (50std Cutters or smaller),
 630 turrets, 130 bays - 100 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 100 Triple
 Sandcaster Turrets, 80 Missile Bays, 50 PAW Bays, 1 Spinal Meson
 Gun-100 (3600000MJ, 120000 MW), 400 PAW-1 Turrets (360MJ, 4800 MW),
 30 Double Fusion Gun Turrets (1980 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 3233255.94 tons, LMass 3239255.94 tons  (Estimated
 carried craft mass = 1000 tons), EMass 3129255.94 tons (less fuel),
 LMass 3135255.94 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0 kph),
 Acceleration - 2.03G Empty, 2.02G Loaded, 2.1G Empty (less Fuel),
 2.09G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 Spinal Meson Gun-100, 3600000MJ : 240000 (386160 km) 1/2 range,
             610000 (981490 km) max range, 6d x 25000(!) damage
 PAW-1 Turret, 360MJ : 2500 (4023 km) 1/2 range,
             6300 (10137 km) max range, 6d x 300 damage
 Fusion Gun : 4200 (6758 km) 1/2 range, 12600 (20273 km)
             max range, 6d x 500 damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 64.34 tons, 7.5 spaces, 39.49565 MCr
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 75.71 tons, 7.5 spaces, 120.27045 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 56.25 tons, 4.5 spaces, 22.525 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 45 , 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power


The Plankwell class dreadnaught is a more specialized ship than the
multi-task oriented Tigress class.  Lacking the extensive troop
complement and the large fighter screen, the Plankwell fulfills are
more traditional battleship role, as the centre of a fleet of
supporting ships.

For decades, the Imperial Fleet in the Spinward Marches has included
at least one BatRon of Plankwell class ships, but recently (1102), the
last squadron was rotated to the strategic reserve in Corridor Sector.
Sentiment in Naval and Sector circles runs high in favour of the return
of at least one BatRon to the Marches.

(Post 5FW addendum - The Plankwell dreadnaughts performed excellently
during the hostilities against the Zhodani invaders in the 5th Frontier
War, but sufferred from having to travel from Corridor in the early
days of the war. The Admiralty decided, after the war, to station
Plankwells along the borders, to provide a fast reacting force, and
allow time for the Battle Tenders and Riders to advance. The 101st
BatRon is an example of this policy.)

Plankwell class dreadnaughts are named for notable admirals in the
Imperial Navy.  The class name is taken from Grand Admiral Olav
hault-Plankwell, a sector admiral in the Spinward Marches who rose to
Grand Admiral of the Marches and lead defeat of the Outworld Coalition
during the 1st Frontier War (589 - 604).  Following his victory in 604,
he lead the fleet to the Core, personally dispatched the Empress
Jaqueline I, and took over the government.  The result was the long,
bloody Civil War; Olav was the first of the Emperors of the Flag.
Although Olav is in disrepute as an emperor, Grand Admiral Plankwell
is still remembered and honored for his achievements as a naval
commander in the First Frontier War; significantly, his name has not
been assigned to any ship in the new Cleon class of battleriders, named
for Emperors of the Imperium.

Modular Construction: Plankwell class dreadnaughts were built using a
modular design and construction technique which has proven cost-
effective in commercial ship-building.  A central strut or keel serves
as a foundation, bracing the drives and aligning the spinal mount,
while all other parts of the ship are mounted to brackets or
strengthened points along it.  The technique allows seperate
construction of the various modules (such as quarters, electronics
areas, fuel tankage, and control areas), with a final mating of all the
various components being performed only after the drives and keel have
been tested and accepted.  There was some initial concern that the
connecting points would be focusses for weaknesses in battle, but the
losses of two separate Plankwells in combat (prior to the 5FW) has been
attributed by investigating boards to strategic misdirection.

- - From Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships, (c) 1981 Marc W. Miller
(with some extra bits from Craig Barnett)


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:57 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Midu Agashaam Destroyer - 101st BatRon

3000ton Midu Agashaam class Destroyer, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 2 x Helm, 2 x Navigation, 9 x Commo/Sensor, 2 x Screens,
 8 x Engineering, 22 x Gunnery, 2 x Medical, 1 x Computer, 2 x Flight
 Total Crew = 51

Specifications:
 3000ton Very Good Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation,
 Sealed, Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Advanced Metal Armor, DR 2000, PD 4, +11 size mod, 1367.958 MCr,
 235866 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical
 Emissions Cloaking, 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Hardened Command
 Bridge, 1 Engineering, 6 Utility, 602 Maneuver, 150 Powered Jump,
 1200 Jump Fuel (300 for Jump 1), 12 Fuel Processor (12.5 hrs to
 process), 35 Staterooms (35 Crew, 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage),
 4 Low Berth (16 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 2 Sickbay, 8 Nuclear
 Damper (20 miles), 50 Meson Screen (DR 10285), 20 Cargo, 1 TL 12
 AESA scan 46 (2 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 46 (2 spaces, 0 MW),
 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 40 (1 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16,
 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 4 Brigs, 1 Complete Workshop, 2 x 50 tons
 capacity Vehicle Bay (50std Modular Cutters), 20 turrets, 1 bay -
 8 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 6 Triple Missile Turrets, 6 Triple
 Sandcaster Turrets, 1 PAW Bay

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 9520.73 tons, LMass 9920.73 tons  (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 300 tons), EMass 7960.73 tons (less fuel), LMass 8360.73
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 6682 mph (10751 kph), Acceleration - 6.32G
 Empty, 6.07G Loaded, 7.56G Empty (less Fuel), 7.2G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 15.1 tons, 2 spaces, 9.27205 MCr
 Scan 46 in space, 700000 miles (1126300 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 17.77 tons, 2 spaces, 28.2267 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 46 in space, 700000 miles (1126300 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 8.75 tons, 1 spaces, 3.525 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 40 , 70000 miles (112630 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power


The Midu Agashaam class destroyer is a streamlined escort vessel
intended to supplement fleet defenses with anti-fighter and anti-small
craft ships. As yet (pre 1107) the class has achieved only limited
production, and is still considered to be experimental or developmental
in status.  The Admiralty, in its evaluation efforts, has thus far
deployed the ships in over-sized squadrons of ten to twenty vessels,
and has committed them to operations only with the Navy's major battle
fleets.

- - From Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships, (c) 1981 Marc W. Miller

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:34:22 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : 400ton Fuel Shuttle - 101st BatRon

This is the fuel shuttle small craft for the Dromedary Fuel Tanker
posted yesterday.

- -------8<-------------------------------------------------

400ton Imperial Navy Fuel Shuttle, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command/Helm, 1 x Navigation/Commo/Sensor, 4 x Gunnery
 Total Crew = 6

Specifications:
 400ton Good Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 200, PD 4, +9 size mod, 117.168 MCr, 61560 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions Cloaking,
 1 Hardened Basic Bridge, 1 Engineering, 1 Utility, 29 Maneuver,
 282 Jump Fuel, 11 Fuel Processor (3.2 hrs to process), 0.5 Cargo,
 1 Power Plant (40 MW output, 24 MW excess), 1 Unpowered ContraGrav
 (8000 tons CG lift, 16 MW), 4 turrets - 3 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets,
 1 Triple Sandcaster Turret

Performance:
 Jump 0, EMass 751.83 tons, LMass 754.33 tons, EMass 385.23 tons (less
 fuel), LMass 387.73 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 2346 mph,
 Acceleration - 3.86G Empty, 3.84G Loaded, 7.53G Empty (less Fuel),
 7.48G Loaded (less Fuel)


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #116
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 117



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT : P.F. Sloan Fleet Escort - 101st BatRon?
GT : Donosev Survey Ship - NOT 101st BatRon!! :)
Real Traveller
Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Articles wanted/fanzines/etc....
Re: Combat Support Element
Deckplans wanted: 1000td Tukera passenger liner (a la Traveller Adventure)
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Sustainable TL's (Was Re: G:T vs. CT)
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Optiko, Mr. D)
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Time Travel
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Real Traveller?
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Refuelling as per TCS (was re: Combat Support)
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:36:46 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : P.F. Sloan Fleet Escort - 101st BatRon?

This wasn't a part of the listed Squadron, but I thought I'd post it
anyway, as an alternate to the Midu destroyer, perhaps???


5000ton P. F. Sloan class Fleet Escort, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 2 x Helm, 2 x Navigation, 5 x Commo/Sensor, 2 x Screens,
 23 x Engineering, 7 x Gunnery, 2 x Medical, 1 x Computer
 Total Crew = 45

Specifications:
 5000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 8800, PD 4, +11 size mod, 3015.126 MCr, 331563 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 1 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 10 Utility,
 2084 Maneuver, 250 Powered Jump, 2000 Jump Fuel (500 for Jump 1),
 21 Fuel Processor (11.9 hrs to process), 30 Staterooms (30 Crew,
 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 4 Low Berth (16 capacity, 0 Low
 Passage), 1 Sickbay, 16 Nuclear Damper (25 miles), 100 Meson Screen
 (DR 14100), 45 Cargo, 2 Power Plant (80 MW output, 0 MW excess), 5
 Unpowered ContraGrav (40000 tons CG lift, 80 MW), 1 TL 12  AESA scan
 46 (2 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan 43 (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 EW
 Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (0.5 spaces, 0 MW), 2 x 50 tons capacity
 Vehicle Bay (50std Modular Cutter), 1 x 50 tons capacity Space Dock
 (50std Modular Cutter or smaller), 30 turret(s), 2 bay(s) - 30 Triple
 405Mj Laser Turrets, 2 Missile Bays

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 33586.74 tons, LMass 34561.74 tons, EMass 30986.74 tons
 (less fuel), LMass 31961.74 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph,
 Acceleration - 6.2G Empty, 6.03G Loaded, 6.73G Empty (less Fuel),
 6.52G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 15.1 tons, 2 spaces, 9.27205 MCr, Internal
Power
 Scan 46 in space, 700000 miles (1126300 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 5.12 tons, 0.5 spaces, 8.2116 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 43 in space, 200000 miles (321800 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:38:58 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Donosev Survey Ship - NOT 101st BatRon!! :)

Just for something different, here's my take on the Donosev, in GT
terms:



400ton Donosev class Survey Ship, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 7 x Commo/Sensor,
 1 x Engineering, 1 x Medical, 1 x Computer, 4 x Science/Lab,
 2 x Flight
 Total Crew = 19

Specifications:
 400ton Unstreamlined Hull, Normal Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD 4, No Stealth, No Emissions
 Cloaking, 1 Unhardened Command Bridge 1 Engineering, 1 Utility,
 20 Maneuver, 16 Powered Jump, 120 Jump Fuel (40 for Jump 1),
 1 Fuel Processor (15 hrs to process), 19 Staterooms (19 Crew,
 0 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 4 Low Berth (16 capacity,
 0 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 2 Lab, 45 Cargo, 1 TL 12 PESA scan 50
 (7.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 37 (0.5 spaces, 0 MW),
 1 x 30 tons capacity Vehicle Bay (30std Cutter Module), 1 x 50 tons
 capacity Vehicle Bay (50std Modular Cutter), 3 x 2 tons capacity
 Space Dock (3 Air/Rafts), 4 turrets

Performance:
 Jump 3, +9 size mod, 210.118 MCr, 30780 HP, EMass 525.65 tons,
 LMass 1010.65 tons, EMass 369.65 tons (less fuel), LMass 854.65
 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph, Acceleration - 3.8G Empty, 1.98G
 Loaded, 5.41G Empty (less Fuel), 2.34G Loaded (less Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 11+ PESA (in pop turret): 75 tons, 7.5 spaces, 120.2 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 11+ Radscanner: 2.5 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.025 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 37 , 20000 miles (32180 km)

 Design Stats For EW Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:37:17 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Real Traveller

>> <Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
>> you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>

*sigh*

>> I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made Traveller
>> what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the Traveller
>> setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still playing
>> "Real Traveller", IMO.


I'm with you, Clay. I figure if it's set in the Traveller universe, it's the
only published version of the game at the moment, and Marc Miller is getting
money from it (which one would assume he is via licensing) then it's "real
Traveller." It may not be "Canon" Traveller, but that's just fine by me. I
prefer the GT setting anyway (although I did enjoy the TNE and T4
settings..it's the rules I didn't care for).

It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market, it is SETTINGS
that sell games, not rules. Numerous examples exist of games with arguably
weak systems (Deadlands and Shadowrun being two examples)that are popular
because their settings are so compelling. Traveller will sell IF the SETTING
is emphasized; which rules system is used is IRRELEVANT.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:53:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

	I've been thinking more about the question of a good
non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The problem
is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only real
constant.  

	This means that you're stuck with either choosing an arbitrary
distance unit (such as the parsec) or choosing an arbitrary time unit and
multiplying by C to get, for example, the light-year, light-second, etc. 
The thing that gets me is that people in the Traveller universe would use
the parsec as a unit.  It's based on the earth's orbit, why would other
races use it?  One possibility is that they don't, and the maps we see are
simply made according to Imperial convention for player convenience (I
think there is a mention in S&A of Aslan males using a different unit
while females use the parsec to help smooth trade).  

	This may solve that problem, but then one is still stuck with the
mystery of why jump drives so conveniently work in units of whole parsecs. 
Is there some fundamental relationship between Earth's orbit and jump
physics?  Again, you can argue that jumps really don't happen in parsec
units, but then I'd like to know what the unit actually is. Canon seems to
suggest that it's a discrete scale, that there cannot be Jump 0.5 drives,
for instance, so what's the actual unit if it's not really the parsec?

	One thing I've been toying with is using cesium-133 vibrations as
the basis of an interstellar distance unit.  This is what some (most?) 
atomic clocks use.  What they do is take the integral of the oscillation
in the microwave spectral line of cesium-133, which amounts to a frequency
of 9,192,631,770 Hz. That provides a basic time unit of 1.0878x10^-10
seconds.  (Note that the use of Hz and seconds here is not important, any
units, Terran or not, will do).

	You then take C, 3x10^8 m/s and multiply by 1.0878x10^-10 s to get
roughly 3.26 centimeters as a base unit.  Let's call this a "Gleisse" 
after our favorite near-earth star observer. A useful unit for
interstellar distance measures would then be an ExaGleisse (exa is the
prefix for 10^18).  Okay, so it's going to need a better name :-), but
this conveniently comes out to roughly 3.4485 light-years.  You don't even
have to adjust your Traveller maps to use this, really.  One could simply
state that this is the unit of interstellar distance used and that in the
Imperium it's called a parsec for historical reasons.  

	This still leaves the mystery of why jumps happen in this sort of
unit (maybe SIDU, for Standard Interstellar Distance Unit would be a
better name?), but I find it slightly easier to handwave a link between
jump and atom vibrations than between jump and earth's orbit.  It's still
a little too convenient that jump works in a base-10 multiple of the
Gleisse, but that can be explained away by saying that the unit is
actually only close to an ExaGleisse/SIDU and that .0326*10^18 is just a
common rounded value that's used (the same way we use 3*10^8 for C).  Of
course, you can do the same with a parsec, but it still seems funny to me
that it would be so close to a paralax unit based on earth's orbit. 

	Note that some Terran units are used in calculating the above, but
this is not important.  The speed of light is a constant, no matter what
units you use, as is the cesium vibration time.  Multiply one by the other
and you get a constant distance.

	The only Terran bias here is using a base-10 multiple of the
fundamental unit, which I suppose the Aslan would dislike (they could get
pretty close with 8^20 units), but most of the other races should be okay
with it.  If they had to agree on a universal distance unit, I think the
the Zhodani, K'Kree, etc would certainly find this easier to swallow than
some unit based on the orbit of Terra!  And of course if it is the basic
unit of jump distance, then they would all use it by convention anyway...

	Okay, I've babbled on about this enough, but I just want to finish
by saying that I'm not proposing any changes to the OTU or anything (that
would be heretical!), just trying to work out a good standard unit for use
IMTU. 

Thoughts?

- -----
It is a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:54:14 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Articles wanted/fanzines/etc....

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:55:28 EST
From: ClayRBush@aol.com
Subject: AAB Proceedings needs ....

1. Articles
	These should be about 800-1000 words.
	ADVENTURES: I prefer that they not specify characters to be used, but specify
NPC and location details instead.
	CONTACT: 4-6 NPCs, connected by a common theme. (All diplomats; all from tech
0 worlds; all connected to the Polity of Fizzbin; whatever.) It's a usability
criteria. A referee can say, "I like this diplomat" or "The players meet the
Fizzbin merchant first."

2. Maps
	These are useful for fleshing out worlds or locations. I use a full page for
a world map. For other locations, 8 cm or 18 cm wide.

3. Art. 
	a) AABP uses a six column layout (usually running text in just two or three
columns). A half-page wide art piece would be 3-1/4" (8 cm) wide.
	b) I have a scanner. If you do too (or have a drawing program), I prefer TIF
format with a 600 dpi resolution.

PLANNED THEMES
===============
Issue 40
Submit by: 28 Feb, 1999
	The worlds in Corridor subsector A about year 99. Vilani populations which
have dealt with Vargr dominance of space for centuries, but have recently been
contacted by the Imperium.

Issue 41
Submit by: 15 March?
	(A catch up the schedule issue.)
	Fun, humorous stuff.

Issue 42
Submit by: 30 April, 1999
	Starting a set during the Interstellar Wars. It's a milieu that's been
discussed a lot, and #40 will have finished the story arc across Corridor
sector.
	Barnard's Star during the Interstellar Wars. A early crash settlement by the
Terrans, and where the wars began.

Issue 43
Submit by: 31 May, 1999
	A system near Earth during the Interstellar Wars.

Issue 44
Submit by: 30 June, 1999
	Dingir.

Issue 45
Submit by: 31 August, 1999
	Post-Origins and GenCon issue.

Issue 46
Submit by: 30 October, 1999
	Swinging away from the Interstellar Wars period, back to year 99.
	Mars, circa year 99. Re-settled by squatters. Earth Corporation trying to
muscle in on the best sites. Thought: A popular Zorro-type figure is
interfering. (It is tough to write a "Who was that guy?" adventure.)

Issue 47
Submit by: 30 November, 1999
	A year-end issue.
	What happens during preparations for the eve of the Imperium's centenarian
year?

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:38:11 EST
From: Kagekiha@aol.com
Subject: Starburst

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Just to let people know. I'm presently working on another Starburst, using
Martin's friend Aaron Barlow's graphic on the cover. The issue largely con=
cern
adventure nuggets for Akigura subsector in Yiklerzdanzh.

Cheers,

David


- - --part0_918628693_boundary--

- ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:14:46 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Combat Support Element
>
>Charles Prevatte  wrote:
>
>Sure. now, looking at _Shattered Ships_ (I know it's not the best
>source), the auxiliary ships seem to have one less jump number than the
>equivalent TL Battleship. So, for a TL15 fleet, to arrive with J-1 fuel
>left in the tankers ties your fleet to J-2. That's a whole lot of
>operational-level mobility that you just gave up.

You are arguing for incompetant naval procurement IMO.

It isnt that hard to build jump-4 tankers and freighters at TL13, which
will let them keep up with a jump-4 TL15 fleet.

Now, having jump-4+1 tankers is going to reduce your payload substantially
over jump-4 tankers, but this is why collapsible fuel tanks were invented.

>
>Some other posters pointed out that the tankers could refuel themselves
>and the other auxiliaries. How long does this take?

Assuming no-one is shooting at you, about as long as normal refuelling, I
guess.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:20:32 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Deckplans wanted: 1000td Tukera passenger liner (a la Traveller Adventure)

Anyone know if any such things exist, and if they are available
(commercially or otherwise)?


Thanks in advance,
Ross

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:23:25 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
>         I've been thinking more about the question of a good
> non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The problem
> is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only real
> constant.
> 

What about the natural logarithm base e (2.7182818...)? Or pi? I wonder
if these are universal constants.

> The thing that gets me is that people in the Traveller universe would use
> the parsec as a unit.  It's based on the earth's orbit, why would other
> races use it?  One possibility is that they don't, and the maps we see are

According to CT Book 6, Earth's orbit is not unique. Earth's orbit is
just one of the standard distances that planets may be found at. That
is, there will be other systems where a planet has an orbit roughly 150
million kilometers from its sun.

So, it isn't that Earth-centric after all.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:14:16 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sustainable TL's (Was Re: G:T vs. CT)

> > be the highest commonly available in the vicinity. The independantly
maximum
> > sustainable would seem to make the most sense.  There would have to be a
> > duration of some kind, too.  Maybe have the definition of tech level vary
> > according to population size?  Any Low-pop planet, it's the most commonly
used
> > TL?  Higher than that, it's the maximum sustainable?  Low-pop planets cut
off
> > from trade, supply, whatever will quickly fall to what they can sustain
> > (probably pretty low unless there's *some* kind of infrastructure).
> 
> 	So, how about the maximum sustainable TL is AVG(TL,(Pop UWP/2))?
> So, your airless rockball TL15 minig station with 30 people on it, if "cut
> off" (six months?) start dropping a TL every quarter until they hit TL8.
> Which means amongst other things, that those snazzy TL 14 vaccsuits all be
> came un-servicable two years before they bottomed out.

That looks pretty good to me.  Maybe put the Pop multiplier in there
somewhere, but maybe not.  Could do something even simpler and say UWP pop
digit months or something, then TL goes down 1 or whatever, etc.  It'd be easy
to make that a general assumption, exceptions at the Ref's desire, of course
:-).  I'm thinking the "basics" (like life support on a normally uninhabitable
world).   

For something as particular as a vacc suit, or another specific equipment
item, i think you need something like wear values.  When the trade/supplies
run out, it should get harder to do PM (for MTU, I go more towards the written
rules when this happens (as opposed to simply the number mp/week, w/ no rolls
to properly maintain, which is for normal circumstances)).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:15:51 EST
From: Optiko@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Optiko, Mr. D)

>>frequency and phase to the output of the L-grid, so the L-grid could send
back
>>what it liked about the ship. At long range, you could turn a battleship
into
>>a helpless cargo vessel, and vice versa. The possibilities for this
technology
>>are endless, so please comment. 

>That is the concept behind ELINT and SigINT systems but what you are talking
>about is a complex and exacting science.  Not something that your average
>jack leg could do with standard equipment.  The tricks you purpose are in
>the realm of spy ships and stealth systems of military quality.

I wasn't suggesting that you fit this system to a standard BatRon or CruRon.
You're right, normal equipment would be insuffient to create an illusiory
radar image. I was thinking more along the lines of an elite BatRon with
support vessels. They could be called upon to defend systems in trouble, or
draw out shipping lane pirates or something. They would cost an inordinate
amount of money, but unless they get themselves into the middle of a Zhodani
fleet or something equally as deadly the enemy aren't going to be around long
enough to shoot back.

Another aspect of the technology is on a much smaller scale. Create a deep-
space mine, containing a Friend-or-Foe nuke warhead and some small cannon. The
radar spoofer would be used to make it look like an asteroid, or a damaged
fighter or abandoned tug. If the stealth system on board is transmitting false
radar returns then they could be used to piggy-back a scanning beam of it's
own. If it came across something it didn't like, it fired and zipped away on a
one-shot booster rocket. Lay a few around a system and you've got a disguised
Planetary Defense System and a 'tripwire' for incoming fleets.

~Op

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:28:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Craig Barnett wrote:

> The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial
> Service, and are now being phased out of service.  Within the last
> decade (approx 1107) several ships have been disposed of to other
> services such as the scouts..

Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
for a dreadnaught?



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:45:23 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Time Travel

Jesse LaBranche writes:
"Don't take this offensively Ian, but being an atheist do 
you find that the "Universe Cares" about anything?"

	No offense taken. No, I find that the universe is
	pretty neutral. Rather depressing, really, but the
	"laws" of physics, as we understand them, don't
	include any provisions for caring.

"I'm under the impression that you'd see it as non-sentient. 
In that case, the effect of two timelines could be a part of 
it as much as a pebble changing the course of a river. I 
mean a river doesn't care whether there's a pebble in it 
either, but that pebble can affect the entire universe."

	That is exactly my point. Temporal paradoxes do not 
	require sentient awareness to be paradoxes.

"There have been a LOT of books written on such subjects. 
Personally, I like the idea mentioned by the previous poster 
though."

	If there is travel back in time IYTU, then you are 
	going to have to do some handwaving, and the idea 
	mentioned by that poster is as good as any.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:47:12 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

>[anti-parallel universe argument:]
> If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
> outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
> more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
> concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.

This is a fairly silly argument. The reality is that when you roll a die
trillions of universes exist - one for every interaction of every atom in 
the die, or more. Most of those universes have it coming up with the loaded
side up.

(So probabilities are maintained, at the cost of many nearly-indistinguishable
universes.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:54:27 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real Traveller?

In a message dated 2/10/99 6:35:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE writes:

<< 
 I always thought, 'real Traveller' was only played with house rules ...
 
 L.A. >>

	Classic Trav, Mega Trav, TNE and T4 all used quite different sets of rules in
many areas, but most of the source/background material was very compatable.
The only thing that I find that really puts GURPS Trav outside of "real"
Traveller is the tech levels.  When you talk tech level in any of the other
systems there is pretty good consistency and "mutual intelligblity" which
isn't true of GURPS,  maybe after I've had the GURPS stuff longer I'll make
the transfer more easily, but as I've said before FGMP-12 just sounds so
wrong.

   Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 22:05:53 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

>> Well, I'm no expert, but I've done a little programming...

Like Ethan, I'm theoretically an expert - been doin this programming thing for over a 
decade, and that sign on my office door says "Programmer/Analyst"...

> programming and speak at software development conferences. In practice, I am
> yet another warm body in the computer industry.

This is more the truth, though...I'm just a programming grunt in the pits...

>> Even now, things seem to be moving to "object-based" programming, which
>> works with GUI (Graphical User Interface) or mouse-driven
>> operating systems.
> 
> Actually, they're moving away from OO & GUI. OO is passe. Patterns are where
> it's at. (This is tongue firmly in cheek - every new advance in computer

<snip>

Actually, I think comparisons like the above are pointless (IMHO). Sure, you've got the 
flavor of the month, which, as Ethan has stated, is currently patterns and distributed 
systems. But that doesn't invalidate _any_ of the previously used methods of 
programming, any more than OO invalidated procedural. While every magazine out there 
may be screaming "Patterns! UML! Distributed! Internet! Java!", the majority of 
professional programmers, in my experience, ignore the flashy headlines and simply use 
what works best for them. A programmer that's been coding in COBOL for over 15 years is 
more productive and powerful than a programmer that's been doing UML and Java for only 
1 year. 

I use a mixture of techniques myself. Professionally, I use C++. I do some modeling in 
UML. I write intranet front ends in Java. I've written some business logic in Prolog. I 
tweak my code in assembly. I use patterns, polymorphism, inheritence, encapsulation, 
etc...frequently, but not all the time.

I expect it'll be this way for some time to come.

Your milage may vary...

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:05:46 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Refuelling as per TCS (was re: Combat Support)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Some other posters pointed out that the tankers could refuel themselves
and the other auxiliaries. How long does this take?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
According to p39, _Trillion Credit Squadron_, a ship in the reserve can
refuel from a gas giant in one pass (taking seven turns) and can
transfer an indeterminate amount of fuel from one ship to another in
two turns.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:12:02 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

>> Yes, there are differences between Visual C++ and Visual
>> Basic in performance.  But we're sort of like two cavemen
>> sitting around arguing about which color flint will be
>> used for the tools to construct the Space Station.
>
> LOL.  That's a good analogy.  And funny, too. ; )


I have to agree that it was a good dig.  But, the point
I was trying to make was about computer programming and
the expertise behind it.  The VB of Traveller may be a
natural language interface that anyone with a little
training can use.  It's very flexible and forgiving, but
it's a CPU hog and does not necessarily create the best
code possible.

  "Computer, assemble a virus that will sift through
   the Imperial datacore and remove all references to
   the Lady Jane.  Use modules, Loki and Norn."

  "Warning, Norn has been compromised and a defense may
   exist within the target system."

  "Noted.  This is a backwater scout base, continue."

  "Program assembled.  Would you like to add a taunt?"

On the other hand, a programmer with a higher skill
level would whip out the goggles.  (Holodisplays are
nice, but goggles offer privacy and better 3D sound.)
Our hacker grabs the modules that he needs and notices
that module Norn has a warning glow/tone painted on it.
With a few tweaks to the signature block and some new
spoofing code, the computer assigns a safer color.

  "Bind the modules under Revenge1 and check against
   known scanning software."

  "Revenge1 has raised no exceptions."

  "Transmit to the local communications hub."

  "Acknowledged."

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #117
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 118



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking >DJ Golden
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
World Building Help Needed
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: GT Worldbuilding
RE: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
RE: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking >DJ Golden
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:09:03 EST
From: Optiko@aol.com
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking >DJ Golden

> The problem with using the technique as
> stealth is what a previous poster mentioned--by the time your fancy
> stealth gear measures the incoming signal (via an antenna ...),
> determines the frequency, phase, and amplitude, and generates an
> exactly opposite signal, millions of wavecrests have already
> reflected back to the enemy, telling him exactly where you are.

The diea is not to make youself invisible, but innocuous. Even if a million
wavecrests bounce back, on 1Ghz radar that lasts 1000th of a second. It'll
take a pretty sharp computer to favour that for an ID check over the faked
signal. At I billion wavecrests per second a few million aren't that reliable,
else there wouldn't BE any 1Ghz radar systems.

~Op

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:35:21 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >[anti-parallel universe argument:]
> > If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
> > outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
> > more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
> > concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.
> 
> This is a fairly silly argument. The reality is that when you roll a die
> trillions of universes exist - one for every interaction of every atom in
> the die, or more. Most of those universes have it coming up with the loaded
> side up.
> 
> (So probabilities are maintained, at the cost of many nearly-indistinguishable
> universes.)

Your logic shows that my (and Larry Niven's) example is not a good one.
The point that I was trying to make is that the parallel universe
concept, as detailed in the post to which I replied, implies that all
possible outcomes for a given _single_ event are equally probable.

Your comment showed that my example is not a single event, it is a
complex series of motions involving trillions of "sub-events", each of
which has a different outcome.

The flaw lies in the example, not in the logic. A good example must be a
single event that has multiple outcomes, but where at least one outcome
is more likely than the others.

Finding any one such example disproves the parallelism theory. I suspect
than these examples will all have to be of a subatomic particle nature,
and I don't have the physics background to come up with them.

I throw it out to the list: does anyone have an example of a
multiple-outcome event, with at least one outcome more likely than
others, where the event is not composed of smaller events?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
UNIX/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:55:21 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: World Building Help Needed

I am building a world using the ol' WBH, and I need a suitable primary gas
for my atmosphere given that:

It is a Corrosive (B) atmosphere
The average world temperature is -56.24 degrees celcius (and as a size 6
world with a small, cold, red star, it never gets much better than -24
celcius or so, and can drop as low as -100)
The atmospheric pressure is 25.00

So, I need a substance that can be gaseous during at least SOME of this
temperature range, under pressure (does that make a difference?), and if the
substnce in question behaves differently within that temperature range,
please so inform me!

Oh, and it's designation (example: h2o or whatnot - I'm no scientist!) would
be nice too, as well as what it means (what's it made up of)?

(Finally (yes, I'm being a pain), what would happen if one tried to extract
Hydrogen (for fuel), Oxygen (for air) or water from same, assuming they had
the gear to do so.  What by-products would these create?

Thanks for putting up with me, y'all.


Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:57:02 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

>I've been thinking more about the question of a good
>non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The problem
>is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only real
>constant.

[snip]

>Thoughts?

With all due respect, I think you are thinking about this too hard. :-)

The parsec is a measure of convenience to make things simple for players
(as you said). Jump does not have to be, in truth, directly tied to parsecs
or whole units in general. Instead, one can say that it's tied to something
close to a parsec and that astrogators of the 3rd Imperium say "parsec"
because it's a Galanglic word (since that language is largely derived from
English, IIRC). For all we know, the actual value of Jump-1 could be 3.26
lightyears, 4,322 miles, 634 feet and 2.335 inches.

Mainworlds would not be exactly 1, 2, 4 or 6 parsecs away from each other
in the real universe, and jump numbers are abstractions that recognize
this. There would probably be units like Vilani "mashuggammas" and Aslan
"ohweeohweeohs" and Vargr "rrrghas" that are similar in distance to
parsecs, and are similarly abstracted to measure jump distances.

It's like saying "yards" or "paces" or "meters" interchangeably for games
- -- it isn't exact by a long shot, but it gets across the idea.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:07:14 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

 "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Following the thread it seems that GT ends up with much different
>worlds...I haven't gotten BtC yet...but is it radically different from
>the GDW supplement on the Marches?

Which GDW supplement on the Marches?

CT Supplement 3 which is just a collection of maps, UWPs and a paragraph or
two of background...

CT The Spinward Marches Campaign - which looks at the SM after the FFW...
Lots of background and military stuff.

TNE The Regency Sourcebook - it's closest in style to BTC, but BTC just has
the edge iMO.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:44:38 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Charles:

seems like you're spending a lot of time on this, and I don't personally
think it's worth it. Most people and societies don't get too exact about
a lot of things, like our calendar for instance.

did you know that it's very likely Jesus was born in 4 B.C.? 
Why don't we, with all our computers and Cesium clocks, come up with a
way to make our planetary 23.59xxx daily cycle better match up with our
annual cycle? 
Why do English-speakers still use feet and inches? 
Why to the British and their former colonies drive on the left side of
the road while everyone on the European continent and in the US drive on
the right?
Even the metric system is Terra-centric, as you put it.

NONE of these things "make sense" from a purely cosmological point of
view (except arguably, the inability to match up the daily and annual
calendrical cycles--one of God's grander jokes, IMO). but people being
people, once we've decided to stick with a system, no matter WHAT it
derived from originally, they're apt to stick with it until forced to,
or until it no longer does the trick.

So I suggest you pick a standard, give your players a reason they can't
disprove (the diameter of a Vargle atom, for instance), and go from
there. I think your players will thank you for it.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"  (Dr. Strangeglove,
1963)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Charles Collin [SMTP:charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca]
> Sent:	10 February 1999 14:53
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
> 
> 	I've been thinking more about the question of a good
> non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The
> problem
> is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only
> real
> constant.  
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:34:09 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

From: Bruce Johnson 
> Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
> for a dreadnaught?

Now there's an adventure hook, if I ever saw one!

Unfortunately there are probably boring answers too.  Anything with decent
small craft facilities can become a tender/mobile scout base.  Given the
Scouts' duty to go in harms way, a little muscle probably can save lives. 
Maybe local despots are less likely to mess with first contact teams if the
sun is being eclipsed by a dreadnaught... 

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:42:37 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

Christopher B. Thrash writes:
<<At the moment that you stepped out of bed 
two timelines were created, but when nothing further came of 
it the timelines remerged -- like virtual particles, the 
timelines were created and destroyed too quickly to notice.">>

As a math student I have no objection what so ever to the 
possibility of a infinite number of parallel universes where
new universes are created by every change in state of every
existing quark. This should result in that every possible
universe exists in the same way that every real number exist 
(meaning you don't have to write it before it exists).

With this handwawe you don't get any paradoxes, but is could get 
really tricky to travel backward accurately (finding the desired paths). 
You will get a _really_ infinite number of universes.

In my game however I allow time-travel forwards in time and 
the possibility to "look" back in time. If you look forwards 
in time your vision will only be a potential one. The mechanics of 
time-travel forwards in time are not understood but some scientist/
philosophers have some crazy ideas that "just might work"... :) 

Not that timetravel/psionics is a regular feature IMTU, but it's 
always good to be prepared.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:53:50 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

In a message dated 2/10/99 6:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
glappkaeft@hotmail.com writes:

<< 
 With this handwawe you don't get any paradoxes, but is could get 
 really tricky to travel backward accurately (finding the desired paths). 
 You will get a _really_ infinite number of universes.
  >>

	Heck, I still can't get past Achilles and the Tortoise (Zeno's paradox that
proves motion is impossible), so I just don't allow time travel, no more
paradoxes please.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:05:41 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

At 04:57 PM 10/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Mainworlds would not be exactly 1, 2, 4 or 6 parsecs away from each other
>in the real universe, and jump numbers are abstractions that recognize
>this. 

        Hi, Joesph....
        In fact when I mapped out the area around Earth for my TNEC game, I
discovered the only two planets even close to being a parsec distant of each
other are Earth and Alpha Centari =).  So, I just said that "jump 1" is
3.3ly or less (including micro-jumps) and "Jump -2" was 3.31ly to 6.6ly,
etc.  It works well enough;  my map doesn't have hexes on it.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:14:01 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: RE: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

But it's flavour. Telling your players that Erehwemos is 12 exaGliese from
Erehwesle adds just a little extra to the otherworldly feel most of us try
to achieve with Traveller, particularly if you can tell them the derivation
of the Gliese. There's no need to tell them that it's almost exactly the
same as a parsec. Nor to tell them that you didn't have to do any
modification work other  than cop a nifty name off a fellow TMLer ;-)

>Charles:
>
>seems like you're spending a lot of time on this, and I don't personally
>think it's worth it. Most people and societies don't get too exact about
>a lot of things, like our calendar for instance.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Charles Collin [SMTP:charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca]
>> Sent:	10 February 1999 14:53
>> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>> Subject:	Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
>>
>> 	I've been thinking more about the question of a good
>> non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The
>> problem
>> is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only
>> real
>> constant.
>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:10:44 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Erwin Fritz wrote
>What about the natural logarithm base e (2.7182818...)? Or pi? I 
>wonderif these are universal constants.

Pi will look a bit different if you use a base for numbers other than
10. It will however still be the same number as pi is defined by 
geometry and the fact that our universe is a .. where did I put 
the d-mn book... yes here it is .. metric space (metric not as SI-units 
but as in possible to measure distance).

IIRC one second is nowadays redefined to be a (whole) number of 
oscillations of cesium (-133?) thereby actually changing the length
of the second. This could, as someone pointed out earlier, be used with 
c to define a universal length (to tedious IMHO to use in a game).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:22:42 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

In a message dated 2/10/99 7:09:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ghorne@shaw.wave.ca writes:

<< But it's flavour. Telling your players that Erehwemos is 12 exaGliese from
 Erehwesle adds just a little extra to the otherworldly feel most of us try
 to achieve with Traveller, particularly if you can tell them the derivation
 of the Gliese.  >>

	And it only takes 10 Centons to get there!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:33:30 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 03:09 pm 2/10/99 +0000, you wrote:
>First, several other people have said the the photonic model is not
the best
>way to model radar.  

But when you're talking about phase cancelling you *have* to be using
a wave model ... which is where part of the original thread started.
And I suspect when you start talking about things like doppler
effects, phase distortion, delay lines, and various advanced ECM
effects you'll have to use both.

>Second, today's electronics work at very high speeds.	
>I am not talking about digital.  I mean analog.  A radio intercepts
and
>processes radio waves in real time.  Responce time is much less than
.5
>wavelength in the radio/radar band, which is all that is required
for phaze
>canceling.  Light on the otherland is not a doable with today
technology 

	I've got some doubts about the half wavelength thing there ... since
the current flow in the electronic circuit is *less* than lightspeed,
for the delay from input to output to be that short, the *entire*
process including power etc. would have to occur in less than
half-wavelength's work of circuitry--at millimeter wave radar you're
talking quite short stuff. Yeah, I know IC's are small and getting
smaller, but I suspect it's a fairly complex circuit, especially if
it's putting out useful amounts of RF.

	And I also suspect that half a wavelength of return signal (before
it gets phase-cancelled) would still set off sensors, especially if
this technology were to be developed. "Gee Cap'n, I got a partial
blip and then it just disappeared! Aw, shucks, system must be on the
fritz ..." might happen the first few times this device were used,
but the bright guys in ECCM would soon figure it out.

	Now throw in a "hopping" radar, changing frequencies according to
some pseudorandom sequence. If the sensor computer gets a
half-wavelength return each time it hops, that oughta set bells
ringing.

to
>the extent that invisibility is posible.  If light, IR, could be
canceled
>macroscopically then airconditioning would need near 0 power and
cost nearly
>nothing.

	Heat isn't IR--IR is one method of transferring heat. Heat is random
kinetic energy of molecules. And 

>True, (I took part in that 'doing to death') the other part of this
post
>delt with a limited black globe effect.  That was what I was
refering to.  A
>device that absorbed only part of the spectrum to allow ships to
appear cool
>while using the absorbed energy to power its' systems without
needing to use

	Sounds like a magical heat engine to me. Or Maxwell's Demon. 

>Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the center
of a 2
>mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach 290K in any
reasonable
>time?  You are leaving out surface area and thermal mass.  The heat
from a 4
>man outpost will never heat 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and
silicon to
>290k.  If that were true the entire earth would have the same
temperture 

	No, I was discussing the implied "nominal" case of normal
spacecraft, which I understand to be something like what your average
PC will encounter. Say, something out of Supplement 7, Traders and
Gunboats. We can certainly discuss special cases if they're specified
so we all know what we're discussing, but the general case has more
applicability.

BTW, after I sent last night's email I started thinking I might have
been a bit "snippish" or condescending. I have a tendency to be very
short in my replies, with an occasional dash of sarcasm thrown in,
which has gotten me in trouble. There was certainly no intent to be
rude or offensive, and I hope I didn't come across that way.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:41:42 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking >DJ Golden

At 05:09 pm 2/10/99 EST, you wrote:
>> The problem with using the technique as
>> stealth is what a previous poster mentioned--by the time your
fancy
>> stealth gear measures the incoming signal (via an antenna ...),
>> determines the frequency, phase, and amplitude, and generates an
>> exactly opposite signal, millions of wavecrests have already
>> reflected back to the enemy, telling him exactly where you are.
>
>The diea is not to make youself invisible, but innocuous. Even if a
million
>wavecrests bounce back, on 1Ghz radar that lasts 1000th of a second.
It'll
>take a pretty sharp computer to favour that for an ID check over the
faked
>signal. At I billion wavecrests per second a few million aren't that
reliable,
>else there wouldn't BE any 1Ghz radar systems.

	But if this kind of ECM is practically developed, it'll only be
useful until the other side finds out it exists. Then they'll be on
the lookout for brief "blips" that disappear.

	Throw in frequency/amplitude/phase hopping, and the continuous
stream of disappearing blips, in the same place, and right at hop
transition, and even Elmer Fudd will start looking suspicious.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:46:22 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

At 07:22 pm 2/10/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/10/99 7:09:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>ghorne@shaw.wave.ca writes:
>
><< But it's flavour. Telling your players that Erehwemos is 12
exaGliese from
> Erehwesle adds just a little extra to the otherworldly feel most of
us try
> to achieve with Traveller, particularly if you can tell them the
derivation
> of the Gliese.  >>
>
>	And it only takes 10 Centons to get there!

	Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:41:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

In mail you write:

>>Quantum physics. It has been proven that chemical propeties can be
>>predicted *completely* by working thru the wave equations. It's just
>>that it's not *practical* to generate the predictions for anything
>>beyond hydrogen.
>
> Why is that?  The math to complicated?  If a pc found say element 274, what
> would he have to do to calculate what it could be used for?  What would the
> computing requirements be for this type of calculation?

As I understand it, they managed to do the calculations for an
*individual* hydrogen atom back in the late 50s/early 60s. They did the
ones for a hydrogen *molecule* rather recently. As the atom gets more
complex *and* as you add atoms, things get *really* complex. 

We're talking *centuries* of computer time. 

>>> I'm not looking for any really wierd 'new' properties just a bonding
>>> charateristic similar to carbon and/or silicon.  What 'thoretical element'
>>> would most likely match carbon in it's chemical bonding habits?
>>
>>None. Check things out and note the progression in that part of the
>>chart. Carbon, silicon, germanium, tin, bismuth, ???. The progression
>>of preties is steadily more metallic, even as the melting points go
>>down. 
>
> Would this apply even with very heavy elements?  If you go far enough could
> you end up with a 'new' carbon?  Maby element 4017?  Sorry my chemistry did
> not go nearly far enough to predict theoretical elements.

Neither did mine, other than the "check the properties of the earlier
ones in the same 'period' and extrapolate" method. Which does work
fairly well.

>>> I was thinking 'for this adventure' that this new element would bond
>>> like carbon and/or silicon but the new compounds would behave very
>>> diferent from either.  CO2 is a gas SiO2 is sand (I think Si is
>>> silicon) but the new XO2 might be a liquid for example.
>>
>>Ain't gonna happen. The increased atomic weight is going to take care
>>of *that*. With the exception of "Noble gases" (period VIIIA), it's
>>virtually *certain* that all non-carbon-based compounds that are
>>gaseous or liquid at normal temps are already known. Again, it's a
>>matter of the way the increase in atomic weight affects the properties
>>of elenments.
>
> OK, what about crystals then.  Could this ultra heavy element have a
> crystaleen form?  Like diamoind?

All elements have a "crystaline" form. But that doesn't mean what you
may think it does. Metal crystals look just like the metal normally
does, except for the facets.

> Good point.  That I should have remembered.  What if a new element had a new
> valence level with say 8, 16, 32, or 64 electrons that tended to form
> covelent bonds with large numbers of carbon atoms to form a 'supper
> crystal'.  Kind of like a bucky ball diamond.  If the compound were a
> simiconductor as well it would be of great value in the electronic industry
> or if it were an insolater like silicon it could be used as a very durable
> substrate.  

It's going to be a metal. Thus a conductor. And I think such multiple
covalent bonds will be pretty weak. 

> Sorry fishing for a good Mcguffin for a game I'm planing.  An atomic bomb
> 'diamond' pendant would be great especially if only a few people (not the
> player to start with) knew what it could do.

Not likely. But propeties that *are* likely are very high or very low
melting points (If you check the periodic table, you'll see that for a
number of the "periods" the melting point goes *down* as the atomic
number goes up, and vice versa).

For example, look at group 1A (LI, Na, K, Rb, Cs, Fr). The melting
points drop steadily as the elements get heavier. Yet in group VIII
(Fe,Co,Ni;Ru,Rh,Pd;Os,Ir,Pt) they get *higher*.

Another is that superheavy elements ought to have *very* loosely bound
electrons in the outer shells, which means they'd be likely to be
kicked loose by *low* frequency EM. Red light, Infrared, maybe even
microwaves or *radio*.

So the stuff could, under the right circumstances, develop a huge
charge from something like a radar beam sweeping across it. And if the
players ship gets too close before the charge gets neutralized by the
stellar wind..... ZAP!

> Thanks for your insight.  Would it be posible that the 'special property' of
> one of these new elements could be such that it either greatly increases
> Jump performance or that it greatly improved jump fuel efficency?  Or
> perhaps one of it's isotopes.  Say for example that a jump drive modified
> with this new catalist Jumpium 137 could make a jump with half the H2
> normally required.

Lord only knows. But at least that is the sort of thing where a player
can't just jump up and point out that "It can't work that way!". 

Here's a good thought. We know that Barium works as a jump grid. But
Lanthanum is better. Since Cerium is *not* better (or it'd be being
used) it's obviously a "nuclear" property, not a "chemical" (ie
electron cloud) one, because Barium and Lanthanum are in *different*
groups in the periodic table. 

If it was a matter of groups, then you'd expect Yttrium to be the
"works, but poorly" element. Still, it could be that *heavier* elements
in the same groups as Barium and Lathanum will work. The next heavier
than Barium is Radium. And the next than lathanum is actinium. Both are
far too expensive *and* far too radioactive to use. 

But let's assume that someone did some sort of tests with *small*
amounts. Just enough that they thought there might be better
performance. Thus they speculated that #121 (eka-lathanum) would be
better, and #171 (dvi-lathanum) would be *really* good. The next in the
series would be #221 (twi-lathanum).

The eka-, dvi, etc prefixes are semi-standard for describing elements
note yet discovered, but that are the "next" in a group. They are
Sanskrit? for "one", "two", etc.

Now the players have access to this deposit that contains #171 (I'm
assuming that 121 isn't far enough into the island of stability)

> What if it took Jumpium 139 instead and the characters had only found
> Jumpium 137?  What would be necessary to turn it into it isotopic form?

About the same thing that's necessary to turn lead into gold. A *lot*
of massive, expensive equipment. Remember, isotopes are *different*
atoms with the *same* number of protons. Thus their *chemical*
properties are the same. The differing numbers of neutrons will make
their *nuclear* properties different.

Also, those varying numbers of neutrons make *huge* differences in the
stability of the atom. 

BTW, the atomic *weights* involved are likely to be in the 300-500 range.

> And where would the PC be able to do this?  Great McGuffin.  You can
> half your fuel use (or double your jump distance) if you can break
> into this secret imperial base to use the super colider to convert
> that ore sample into useable Jumpium.

More likely it'd go *boom*. Or just decay into a bunch of useless
stuff. You can't *make* heavier elements in "normal" accelerators any
more. They don't stay together long enough. These days they are using
"heavy ion" accelerators. So rather than slamming small atoms or
particles into heavy atoms, they are slaming medium weight atoms into
each other. 

I expect nuclear damper tech will be involved in the Imperial equivalent.

But I expect that your players will have enough fun with the
"Jumpium". Consider that even if it is the "right isotope" (almost
certain as the others would be *far* too unstable to use), they have to
*purify* it, because it's likely to be a mix of *dozens* of other
superheavy elements. All with *almost* identical *chemical* properties
(check into what it takes to seperate the "rare earth" elements from
each other)

Then, once they have the stuff in pure form, they have to *machine* it.
Check out the problems with machining things like Uranium and
Plutonium. They have a several different allotropes (ie several
different crustal forms with differing properties). Allotropes can have
*really* different properties (like graphite and diamond) or just
*slightly* different. The problem is that in these heavy metals the
crystal form will change *several* times as the temperature changes
thru the normal range of "machining" temperatures. 

This means that the *dimensions* of a chunk of the metal will change
noticeably as the temp changes, and worse, the *ratio* between them
changes. In other words, it may get longer, but narrower. Or some other
such combination. 

This can drive machinists *nuts*. It's not so bad once you have the
behavior *documented*. But these guys are going to be *discovering* the
properties. :-)

Oh yes, the "dust" from machining is *guaranteed* to be both *highly*
toxic (it *is* a "heavy metal" after all), but also highly *flammable*.
The stuff is apt to catch fire while being machined if you aren't
careful. 

Still, if they persevere, they'll have a jump grid of dvi-lanthanum
(aka "Jumpium" :-). 

Now comes the fun part. They get to re-calibrate the drive for the new
grid, and they have to *conceal* their find. 

ps. I doubt the deposit would be big enough for more than a *very* few
ships, unless you *really* want to screw up the universe. Besides, it's
more fun if the players *can't* just give some jumpium to <whoever> to
make them quit trying to grab their ship. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #118
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 119



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'
Re: Lanthanum
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Corbomite? [tm] (was: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?)
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Re: Real Traveller
Re: Articles wanted/fanzines/etc....
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaught - 101st BatRon
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Real Traveller
Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Deckplans wanted: 1000td Tukera passenger liner (a la Traveller Adventure)
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Satalite design question.
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'

In mail you write:

> ...
>>TL2 barbarians living in an exotic atmosphere are most likely a native 
> minor 
>>race, 99% likely to be *nonhuman*.  A classic example from sci fi:  The 
>>Ullers, from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising', were recruited to work on a 
>>planet with a heavy florine taint because they could handle it better than 
>>humans could, being a silicon-based life form.
>
>   IIRC, the Ullerans were well-suited to the extremes of their own world 
> (e.g., the polar mines), but are stated as being more susceptible to health
> damage from working on Niflheim. OTOH, they work real cheap and two pairs 
> of arms helps too...

I suspect that it also helped that they'd be less susceptible to
radiation sickness. At least I'd assume that their tissues were more
radiation resistant than human tissue.

BTW, wasn't it the Ullerans who used 20 mm *rifles*? As in fired from
the shoulder? If so, they'd be a *lovely* species to let some of your
more "firepower happy" players encounter. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:38:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > ROFL!  I don't smoke, but now I have a real reason to get a lighter!
>> > Imagine that, we already have Real World(tm) precursors to Jump drives!
>> > All we need now is a Model 3 computer.
>  
>> I've got *4* TRS-80 Model 4 computers. As well as a couple of Model
>> 100s,  a pair of Model 2000s and one and a half Model 600s.
>
> Well, I actually *do* have a Model 3, a 3P to be exact. Would anyone
> like to pay Traveller prices for it...credits converted to dollars at
> the standard 1 to 5, of course. ;-p

Ahem. There's a 4p. That's what my 3 are. There was no "3p". 

> I'd even throw in the disk with the BASIC Traveller software, from the
> JTAS, that I typed in many years ago.

Just email it to me. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:41:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

In mail you write:

>>But what got me was the next item. 1.2 billion years ago. That's when
>>Earth finally had a *year round* oxygen atmosphere (and soon after a
>>permanent ozone layer). Until then we only had an oxygen atmosphere in
>>the summer, and not much of one at that.
>>
>>I'd never encountered that "detail" before. And it got me thinking.
>>That's an *awfully* long time in the history of the planet. I wonder
>>how many "tainted", "tainted thin", "thin", etc atmospheres are simply
>>due to the planet being young? It gives us another possible explanation
>>for some of the weird atmospheres.
>
> Would that mean that the northern parts of the planet having oxygenated
> atmos while the southern would not as summer winter occur at opposite parts
> of the year. Does really the atmosphere mix so slow as to not thouroughly
> mix in say quarter of a year? Amazing if true, it could mean travelling
> civs who follow the breathable atmosphere patch circling the planet every
> year (Wheelworld by Harry Harrison anyone?)

There's *very* little mixing between the northern and southern
hemispheres. What there is consists mostly of some areas near the
equator being in the northern weather patterns part of the year, and
the southern patterns at other parts of the year. 

Air circulation tends to be in bands parallel to the equator. On earth
there are two or three (I forget) bands in each hemisphere. The equator
is pretty much a "calm" zone.

Also, keep in mind that if there's only an oxygen atmosphere (of sorts)
during the summer, that means that during "spring" and "fall" there 
*isn't* one. So your civilization *can't* follow the oxygen, as there's
no oxygen in *either* hemisphere for six months (two seperate three
month periods). 

At *some* point, you'd get to the point where it was *only* the winter
when the O2 content was gone (or too low). But that'd be fairly late in
the game, and by then I think it'd be only a short time until you hit
the year round point.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:25:01 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Corbomite? [tm] (was: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Another is that superheavy elements ought to have *very* loosely bound
> electrons in the outer shells, which means they'd be likely to be
> kicked loose by *low* frequency EM. Red light, Infrared, maybe even
> microwaves or *radio*.
> 
> So the stuff could, under the right circumstances, develop a huge
> charge from something like a radar beam sweeping across it. And if the
> players ship gets too close before the charge gets neutralized by the
> stellar wind..... ZAP!
> 
If one could then polarize the response, and incorporated this substance
into the hull surface of a ship, then you end up with something
suspiciously similar to the pseudo-material described by a certain
non-3I starship captain....  ;-)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:35:24 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Date sent:      	Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:28:34 -0700
From:           	Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

>Craig Barnett wrote:

>> The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial
>> Service, and are now being phased out of service.  Within the last
>> decade (approx 1107) several ships have been disposed of to other
>> services such as the scouts..

>Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
>for a dreadnaught?

I'm sorry you're not cleared for that. Now if you'd just accompany me...


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:39:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Real Traveller

I agree.  Novice GM's blindly accept any rules system that seems to simulate
life to an extent, while experienced GM's will rework a rules system to a
point that is comfortably realistic for their role as "god".

I'm even now reworking T4 character attributes and skills.  Eventually, I
plan to have a VB program that will simulate combat and task resolution.  (A
hand grenade will work according to my experience, rather than a simplified
Trav effect.  e.g., random number of fragments radiating outward in random
directions, each with its own drag coefficient, affected by gravity,
different size fragments doing different damage based on speed--with this a
character some distance off will actually have to get behind cover if he
wants to be sure not to be hit)

James Bond 007 had an excellent setting and I rather liked the rules system,
EXCEPT for the pursuit sequence, which was true to the movie formula, but
not very realistic.  Very difficult to figure out ground covered in a
pursuit, as I recall.

>It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market, it is SETTINGS
>that sell games, not rules. Numerous examples exist of games with arguably
>weak systems (Deadlands and Shadowrun being two examples)that are popular
>because their settings are so compelling. Traveller will sell IF the
SETTING
>is emphasized; which rules system is used is IRRELEVANT.
>
>Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:42:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Articles wanted/fanzines/etc....

Where can a person get this publication, AAB?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:45:55 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaught - 101st BatRon

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Craig Barnett wrote:
> 
> > The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial
> > Service, and are now being phased out of service.  Within the last
> > decade (approx 1107) several ships have been disposed of to other
> > services such as the scouts..
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
> for a dreadnaught?
> 
**looking up the KOKIRRAK-class in Supplement 9**

Well...

With Jump-4, 6-G performance, KOKIRRAKs have good legs.  Plenty of
computer power, for analysis of survey data.  I suspect that the T4 and
G:T translations of the design have sensors from here to eternity.  If
the IISS gets a KOKIRRAK with a black globe generator, they have a truly
stealthy platform from which to deploy remote sensors for long-term
survey of an inhabited, medium-to-high tech planet.

Besides, they don't come out of the IISS ship construction budget....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:56:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...

- --Clif

> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:03:16 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance

At 04:46 PM 2/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I was thinking about units of interstellar distance today and it occurred
>to me that all the commonly used ones, even in science-fiction, are highly
>Terra-centric.  The light-year is based on the Terran year and the parsec
>is based on paralax effects which occur as a result of a half Terran
>orbit.  Has anyone given any thought to units which might be more
>universal? (forgive the pun)
>
>The speed of light seems to be a good starting point, since it is a
>universal constant (probably :-).  Now we need a universal unit of time,
>something like the half-life of cobalt or something like that...any
>suggestions?

How about the amount of time it takes light to move a certain percentage of
the Galactic Radius. That's fairly universal.

Using 2 unique stars would work in place of the galactic radius, but this
could end up again being unique to the race that controls those stars

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:14:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

At 08:56 PM 10/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...
>
>--Clif
>
>> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
>

        A friend of mine, who is an avid reader of the books, tells me this:
The reference is to *how* Hyperspace travel is managed.  The issue is
picking the tighest trajectory while screaming across the cosmos without
"bouncing too close to a super nova", et al.  The Falcon has *military*
quality computers which have been tweaked all to hell...  it was able to
grind the course distance required for the Kessel run, including object
avoidance, to a mere 3 parsecs....  almost the actual distance.  The closest
anyone else ever came was *5*.  Which meant the Falcon was covering the same
distance in *much* less time.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:52:22 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real Traveller

In a message dated 2/10/99 12:53:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, ashock@gte.net
writes:

<< Traveller will sell IF the SETTING
 is emphasized; which rules system is used is IRRELEVANT.
  >>

You sound like M.A.R. Barker of Teklemel...I once read somewere that he said
that the story telling was the important part, and the mechanics of a RPG was
an afterthought....(or something like that as I'm trying to rerember a 15 yr.
old article). I agree with you, but I wouldn't go as far as saying irrelevant.
The exact "bells and whistles" are not important, but it is important that the
rules:

1) work
2) be simple (I know that a lot of people like complicated rules (like me),
but I feel that simple Star Wars style rules bring in the new blood/rug rats.
Perhaps T5 should have a "kiddie" module of starter rules?
3) be consistent
4) be edited for loopholes. I hate "rules weasels".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:25 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

You did it in that ship?  You're braver than I thought!

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.


>At 07:22 pm 2/10/99 EST, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 2/10/99 7:09:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>ghorne@shaw.wave.ca writes:
>>
>><< But it's flavour. Telling your players that Erehwemos is 12
>exaGliese from
>> Erehwesle adds just a little extra to the otherworldly feel most of
>us try
>> to achieve with Traveller, particularly if you can tell them the
>derivation
>> of the Gliese.  >>
>>
>> And it only takes 10 Centons to get there!
>
> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
>   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
>   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:58:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans wanted: 1000td Tukera passenger liner (a la Traveller Adventure)

In a message dated 2/10/99 1:21:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, ross@ican.net
writes:

<< Anyone know if any such things exist, and if they are available
 (commercially or otherwise)?
 
 
 Thanks in advance,
 Ross
  >>

I have the DGP Early Adventures, and it has the deckplans, albeit they are
small. Do you want a snail mail photocopy, as I have no scanner?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:03:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Anthony Jackson writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>> 
>> An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.
> 
>Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted, low
>oxygen content'.

Not in Traveller terms. A tainted thin to dense atmosphere is by definition
breathable with nothing more than a filter mask. If you need supplementary
oxygen tanks it's exotic.

Upon consideration I guess that a low-oxygen atmosphere with slightly less
than enough oxygen (but enough so that you can breathe with a compressor
mask) is closer to the definition of a tainted atmosphere than to the
definition of an exotic atmosphere, but such an atmosphere would have to
have quite a lot of oxygen to qualify. Once you need supplementary oxygen
tanks or backpack-sized compressors, it's exotic.  
 
>>I'm more interested in the corrolary: Any Traveller world with a thin to
>>dense atmosphere will have a fairly mature ecosphere.
> 
>Or has been terraformed.  Any world < size 5 (and some size 5) probably _has_
>to have been terraformed, it aren't massive enough to hold on to water vapor
>over geologic time.  Size 3 and below can't even hold on to oxygen or
>nitrogen.

It is my opinion that the Ancients should be used as sparingly as possible.
Certainly not to explain scores of planets.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:59:46 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

In a message dated 2/10/99 1:35:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
 for a dreadnaught?
  >>

It makes it REAL: easy to reposses a scout/courier from the PC's when they've
been naughty...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:50:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

In mail you write:

>>The difference is that the energy levels per photon are sufficiently
>>low that you can generate them easily by altering the energy state
>>of a weakly bound electron such as one in the conduction band
>>of a metal.
>
> It's those weakly bound electrons being radiated that make radio waves.

Nope. Radio waves are electromagnetic *field* effects. The electrons
never leave the antenna.

>>Light requires a higher energies, a level that would knock a
>>conduction band electron out of the metal altogether, so tends to
>>be emitted by transitions in the more closely bound electrons.
>
> I do not understand the above paragraph.  Are you saying to make light you
> have to strip the inner electrons?

No. Light is generated when the electrons at the inner levels have been
raised to a higher level and then fall back to their "ground state".
When they fall back, they emit the difference between the old and new
"orbital" as a quantum of electromagnetic radiation (aka a photon). 

>>At this point I referred to active sensors, not just radar
>>By wideband, I did not mean 1.2GHz and 1.3GHz
>>I meant 1GHz, 10GHz, 100GHz, 1THz,...
>
> Why would you search in the above frequency ranges?  These are in the
> uplink/downlink bands.  You are looking at a lot of interferience.  You also
> have very limited range and a narrow search field.  These are more like
> short range targeting radars not spherical search radar.  Your power
> requirements is going to be huge!

I think he's talking about the *bandwidth*, more than the frequency.
Also, just because *we* use the gigahertz bands for uplinks doesn't
mean that the Imperium does. 

>>>Also with a black globe you do not radiate.  I also wind it funny that in
>>>traveller something like the black globe is posible but a simpler system
>>>that just works of IR is not discussed.  Seems to me the black glode could
>>>be 'cut down' in size and price to handle the heat problem nicely.  Perhaps
>>>that IS why the fussion power plants are so effiecent.
>>
>>A ship running minimal life support and a 100% black globe will explode
>>once its capacitors are full.
>
> Not exactly true or false either.  Once you close the loop and are running
> everything off of the capacitors you end up with zero gain except for gain
> from outside the system like sunlight.  You have X in the capatitors.  You
> use that X to power your systems and eventually it returns to the
> capacitors.  Closed loop.  Total system power = total power.  Your time
> 'under black globe' would be dependant on where you are in the system.  If
> at the orbit of pluto you could be there for centuries before the boom if
> you have the capacitors of a J6 drive plus your weapons capacitors.

Don't forget that you have sources of heat that are *not* part of the
ship's power systems. For example, every person on board is producing
heat at 100 or more watts. And the sunlight at 1 AU from a G type star
is around a kilowatt per square meter. Figure the maximum dimension of
the ship, add a bit, then figure that the cross sectional area of the
globe is that of a circle that many meters in diameter. 

For example, a ship 50 meters long with a crew of 30 is going to be
dealing with:

People: 30 * 100 = 3 kW
sunlight: (50/2)^2 * pi ~= 1963  call it 2 MW

So you are getting extra energy at the rate of 2003 kiloJoules/sec. Or
~120 MJ/min, or 7.21 GJ/hr, or 173 GJ/day, or 1.21 TJ/week. 

You'll go "boom" soon enough. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:28:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Satalite design question.

In mail you write:

> I've seen plans for 400 ton interdiction sats.  I don't see a comsat as 
> *needing* a sophont onboard it.  They'd be pretty much throwaways; when they 
> die, you send up a ship's boat or something and lob a new one out the 
> airlock.

Actually, commsats *will* eventually go to the "manned" version, at
least for the ones in geosynch.

There's a limited number of "slots" in orbit available, and it makes
sense to have more channels per satellite rather than lots of
satellites. So eventually, we'll wind up with soewhere between 3 and 6
*big* commsats with onboard techs doing regular maintenance and the
like.

Rather like a telephone exchange. They *can* be fully automated and
somewhat "disposable, but it's actually cheaper to have them have
*some* people on duty handling "special" jobs, and doing maintenance.

So I'd expect that by TL10 or so, they'd be installations of 100 or
more tons, with *lots* of antennas (as you want seperate antennas at
seperate frequencies for a lot of things). The interior will have some
"operator" positions, as well as some tech monitoring ones. The rest
will be rack after rack of electronics, with enough room between them
for easy access for repairs and for replacement/upgrading.

They'd *probably* use solar power plus batteries (you need batteries
because even at geo-synch orbit, you wind up in the dark for as much as
an hour part of the year). But they might have a small fusion plant.

>  Same thing with a GPS or a weathersat.

GPS is supposed to be in low orbit, and in fact would be degraded by
having people moving around. Weathersats depend. So may be low orbit.
But a lot are geosynch, and it'd be cheaper to add the required gear to
the big commsats. That allows for regular maintenance, and "tuneups",
It also makes them easier to upgrade. 

The one "disadvantage" of manned satellites at geosynch orbit is that
they need "storm cellars" in case of flares. Still, those flares are
*also* the most likely thing to cause things to break. 

Does anyone have info on how well the various hull materials act as
radiation sheilding? If so, post it. I'll have to try doing some rough
plans. 

> About the only thing you'd need plans  for would be a weapons
> platform or a defense platform.

Actually, those are *less* likely to be manned. Considere that once
space travel gets easy, they are apt to be *easy* targets unless
*heavily* armored. 

Anything in a fixed orbit will be *toast* until the point where
asteroid hulls become practical. So orbiting weapons platforms will
either be "disposable" or *BIG*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:16:52 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

> Here's a good thought. We know that Barium works as a jump grid. But
> Lanthanum is better. Since Cerium is *not* better (or it'd be being
> used) it's obviously a "nuclear" property, not a "chemical" (ie
> electron cloud) one, because Barium and Lanthanum are in *different*
> groups in the periodic table.
>
> If it was a matter of groups, then you'd expect Yttrium to be the
> "works, but poorly" element. Still, it could be that *heavier* elements
> in the same groups as Barium and Lathanum will work. The next heavier
> than Barium is Radium. And the next than lathanum is actinium. Both are
> far too expensive *and* far too radioactive to use.

Here's another fun thought.  Maybe the reason that various jump performances are
linked to tech level stems from the discoveries of better and better jump
catalysts.  So, while jump might be discovered with Barium, later experimentation
around TL 12 produces the much better Lanthanum drive (Jump 2) and as Fusion tech
increases, they are able to create better and better catalysts.  This can be
written off canonically as the "standard" drive (TL 12 jump 2) uses Lanthanum, and
thus is the only element refered to often.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:49:36 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Should be available at your local gaming store, or you can order directly
from SJG at www.sjgames.com

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse


>Where would we order these books from?
>
>--Clif
>
>> Stay tuned to my website and
>>the upcoming G:T bookS...yes, books.  I should also be doing pictures for
>>"First In" if all goes well, along with future G:T books in the pipe.
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Todd A. Zircher <zirto@indepth.com>
>>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>>Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 6:14 PM
>>Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
>>
>>
>>>> Check out Jesse's pics at the Vision Forge Graphics site.
>>>> He's added a Subsidised Merchant and some other stuff.
>>>> I want Far Trader, if only for the pics....
>>>
>>>
>>>We don't want to feed his ego too much.  Well, at least
>>>until he finishes that tutorial link....  (hint, hint)
>>>
>>>--
>>>TAZ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:49:19 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

>Jesse DeGraff spake unto us from On High:
<<snip of my original mail>>
>Come on, Jesse, admit it. You've become an icon for Traveller artistry.
>(Anyone wanna start a Jesse DeGraff fan club? I'm thinkin' semi-annual
>dues will be one 6-pack or one pizza payable directly to Jesse)
>
>I do have one question, Jesse. Since you're an icon now, when we want
>more
>artwork, do we click on you or double-click?


ROFLMHO!!!!!
ROFLMHO!!!!!
ROFLMHO!!!!!
Stop......please.......<gasp>.......you're killin' me here!

OK, deep breaths....damn my sides hurt!

You pretty much hit the dues right on the head.  Beer is good food!  And
pizza has all of your major food groups.  This pretty much makes the
combination unbeatable.
Hmm, single click or double.....Probably single click since I'm html
compatible ;D

Thanks again for everyone's comments.  It definately means alot to me,
especially after 60hr weekends with 12 hours of sleep to rush produce this
stuff for the "Far Trader Sourcebook".

Hey, is anyone else on the West Coast (tascelt excluded 'cause I know YOU'LL
be there) making plans to attend BayCon during the May 28th-31st weekend?
If so, I'LL buy the beer!  I'll be there and I think this year I'll get a
room there, even though I live 5 miles from the convention.  Lemme' know!

Thanks!
Jesse DeGraff
fenris@slip.net
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #119
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 10 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 120



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Gauss weapons
Alternate Travellers
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Alien biology question...
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking
Re: Time Travel
Re: Planet-building advice needed.
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
UN-BS Denver (Battle Station (type SB)) (High Guard TL 11)
Phoenix Legacy by Wren
Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' 
Problems
[none]
Re: Gauss weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:01:12 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Gauss weapons

I was just looking at the Vision-Forge site.  Outstanding!  I did see
something that aroused my curiosity.  This was the Gauss weapons, and I have
a question.  The description notes that they can be set to "subsonic
velocity" which makes them effectively silent.  Now, I assume that either
the ammo is differentiated for sub or hyper sonic mode, because the flight
characteristics are going to be markedly different, or there is a great
decline in effectiveness for the super-sonic rounds.  This would be because
good hypersonic shapes tend to be innefficient sub-sonic shapes and
vice-versa. You need special shapes for the  silent effect.  Also, it
doesn't say, but a 4mm sub-sonic projectile is going to be pretty worthless
against military armor- well, except on full auto.  Does anyone have any
comments about this?  Note that the silent rounds would still be very useful
for sniping.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:03:33 -0500
From: "Robert Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Alternate Travellers

The discussion of parallel universe got me thinking about alternate
traveller universe. How this one?


1930's Vilani pick up massive increase in radio transmissions from a G2
class System (V9234) rimward of Agidda.
1942    The Provincal Governor dies in a industrial accident, his
replacement is a maverick sent to a backwater province to get her away from
the Vilani Core. Her name is Karisha Shurushi
1944     After a two year review provincal resource, Governor Karisha come
across the report on the radio transmissions for V9234
1945    A expedition is mounted from Agidda to investigate the source of the
transmission.
1946    The expedition come back with a report of a world that is capable of
exploiting nuclear engery and has over two billion humans. In addition
several of the system moons and planetoids are rich in minerals.
1947    The second followup expedition is sent to inventory the system. It
is suddenly withdrawn when a shuttle mishap cause a shuttle to crashland in
a desert in the northern region in the smaller continent (One of two
continents on the planet. Before withdrawing surveys indicated that the
natives had no idea what they encountered.
1948    Governor Karisha takes the reports of the two expeditions and sends
it to Mahidkarun headquarters.
1952    Mahidkarun approves Governor Karisha for a Class I Survey and
Monitoring of V9234.
1956    The Third Expedition begins a extensive monitoring and survey of
V9239.
1958    The Expedition halts when the inhabitants launch a space vechile
into orbit.
1960    The Fourth Expedition is launched to V9239 with a monitor only
mission.
1963    The Fourth Expedition returns with a stunning report of the
technological progress of the humans of V9234
1965    Governor Karisha orders the construction of a naval base on the
ninth planet of V9239 and sends the report to Mahidkarun headquarters.
1968    Mahidkarun orders a fifth expedition to confirm the fourth
expeditions findings.
1971    The fifth expedition returns with confirmation and the report that
the humans of V9239 have landed on their closest moon.
1972    The Apollo Moon Mission finds edivence of Vilani activity on the
moon.
1973    Mahidkarun promotes Governor Karisha and appoints a new governor to
oversee the monitoring of V9239.
1979    Mahidkarun wins approval to intregrate V9239 into the Ziru Sirka
before it emeges as a threat.
1982    The Seventh Expedition is launched to gather data needed to begin
first contact and intregration procedures
1988    The Seventh Expedition ends and returns to Agidda.
1995    Mahikarun approves the first contact and intregration plan for
V9239.
2000    First Contact.
- -------------

So what would be the Vilani first contact and intregration plan for Earth?

I have some vague ideas on how this timeline would proceed but here is a
rough outline.

Terra is intregrated into the Ziru Sirka.
The increased contact with Terra triggers the Plague of Duskar.
The Plague of Duskir become widespread due to the long process for Vilani
approval of Terran medical practices.
The Terrans medical practices are approved and are implemented thourghout
the Ziru Sirka. Terra is granted many biotechnology patents. Many Terrans
are permitted to form or join the Medical castes.
Many Terrans who don't like the Vilani acquire jump ships and escape beyond
the frontier forming outland colonies.
The Ziru Sirka stabilizes briefly as the Duskar Plague is brought under
control. But the Vargr makes increasing inroads.
A hundred year time of peace the Outland colonies continue to spread and
mature.
Various Outland colonies begin to raid the rimward frontier. This escalates
into the Outland Wars.
The Outlands can't descively defeat the Vilani but there are too many
Outland colonies for the Vilani to eradicate. The Outlanders form a loose
Outland Alliance
The Outland ship Pathfinder crashlands on Kusyu. The surviving Outlands help
the Aslan build their first jump ship and return home to the Outlands.
The numbers of the Aslans and the technological knowhow of the Outlands
prove to a formidable alliance against the Vilani. After a hundred years of
wars the Ziru Sirka collapses.
The Ziru Sirka is divided into four broad regions. The Vargr controlled
sectors of Vland, Lishun, Antares, Gushemege, Dagudashag,Core, Fornost
The Borderlands of Ilesh, Zarushagar, Masillaa, Delphi.
The Outland-Aslan worlds of Daibei, Magaar, Reaver's Deep, Dark Nebula, and
parts of Zarushagr Masillaa, Diaspora, and Solomani Rim.
The Terran worlds of Diaspora, Solomani Rim, Alpha Crucis, and Old Expanse.

When the Aslan-Outlands forces broke through in Diaspora. The Governor at
Terra consilidated control over the Rimward-Trailing Provinces. He used
Terran inventness to combat the Aslan-Outland alliance to a standsill. Then
over a period of twenty years he brought in a many worlds of the old Ziru
Sirka as he could announced the formation of the new Ziru Sirkaa with the
capital at Dingir

Let me know what you think

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:06:01 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

> > Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
> > for a dreadnaught?
> 
> Now there's an adventure hook, if I ever saw one!
> 
> Unfortunately there are probably boring answers too.  Anything with decent
> small craft facilities can become a tender/mobile scout base.  Given the
> Scouts' duty to go in harms way, a little muscle probably can save lives. 
> Maybe local despots are less likely to mess with first contact teams if the
> sun is being eclipsed by a dreadnaught... 

Interestingly enough, I just completed a 10K Scout Far 
Cruiser/Mobile Command Base for a group of characters IMU.  

Their Mission: to bring the Sidurii Cluster into the Imperium.

The major purpose of the _Far See_ class is to show just how 
powerful the new Imperium is.  

"My God! They put Jump 3 engines in that monster!"  

"Yeah, and there are a couple more just a few months away."

It also has some teeth, though, along with an assortment of other 
destroyers, Kon Tiki class ships, etc.

Dang.  And to think I had an original idea, too.  Then to have it out 
tonnaged!


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:25:38 -0600
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Alien biology question...

I'm in the process of designing an alien race.

Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking how
I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
reasons _why_.

This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...

An exoskeleton with "shielding" in it? This might work, but physical
injuries could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...

Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
radiation?...

Any insights would be appreciated...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins  |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA   |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:29:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

In mail you write:

> First, several other people have said the the photonic model is not the best
> way to model radar.  Second, today's electronics work at very high speeds.
> I am not talking about digital.  I mean analog.  A radio intercepts and
> processes radio waves in real time.  Responce time is much less than .5
> wavelength in the radio/radar band, which is all that is required for phaze
> canceling.  Light on the otherland is not a doable with today technology to
> the extent that invisibility is posible.  If light, IR, could be canceled
> macroscopically then airconditioning would need near 0 power and cost nearly
> nothing.

Sorry, but IR<>Heat. Hot objects emit IR, but IR is *not* heat.
Canceling IR will *not* cool something. 

And even if we had "photonic" circuitry equivalent to the radar stuff
you are talking about, it wouldn't give invisibility. That's because at
IR and optical wavelengths one is usualling using *imaging* sensors.
The object being detected covers *huge* numbers of pixels. It's
thousands or *millions* of wavelengths in size. Which means that you
can't use simple phase cancelation anymore. Or, rather, you have to use
tricks that cancel or redirect ligt coming from *all* directions. 

Oh yeah, "invisibility" requires being effectively *transparent* to the
radiation. It hasn't been achieved even with radar. What radar stealth
has managed is near 100% non-reflectivity. In space, there's little
difference. Even at radar wavelengths it can be a critical difference.
For example, a good "look down" radar would notice that there's an area
where it *isn't* getting a ground return. And the smaller the
wavelength, the more noticeable this sort of thing is.

> Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the center of a 2
> mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach 290K in any reasonable
> time?  You are leaving out surface area and thermal mass.  The heat from a 4
> man outpost will never heat 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and silicon to
> 290k.  If that were true the entire earth would have the same temperture as
> the core and we'd be very dead.

True, you *can* hide things that way. In fact, a sufficiently large
"balloon" will get your emmissions per sq. meter down to something
non-suspicious. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:03:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking

In mail you write:

> So it is a matter of simantics and quantum mechanics as I thought.  The
> photon is the 'medium' of exchange.  Is the photon the quantum of energy?
> Is it the smallest postible unit of energy?  Or is there a smaller 'packet'
> of energy?

At a given frequency, a photon is the smallest unit of energy. At a
longer wavelength, the photons have less energy. At a shorter one, they
have more energy.

The relationship is given by Heisenberg's equation:

E = h f
E = energy of photon
h = Planck's constant
f = frequency of photon

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:08:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

In mail you write:

> [snippage in which I talk about objects only existing in time loops]
>
>   Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:00:22 -0800
>   From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
>   Subject: Re: Time Travel
>
> [snip]
>   Wouldn't this violate Conservation of Matter/Energy?  (he said, playing
>   devils advocate).  The rock would have materialized out of no where, lasted
>   a while, then vanish.  Where did the matter come from if not the Big Bang?
>   Something outside our universe?  A pocket universe perhaps?  Who has those?
>
>   Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:27:39 PST
>   From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>   Subject: Re: Time Travel
> [snip]
>   That'd be a "global causality violation". And tends to have bad
>   consequences. 
>
>
> I do not see many ways in which time travel backwards in time can
> happen without either violating conservation of matter/energy or
> postulating multiple universes.

*Temporary* violations are allowed. That's how "virtual particles"
work. 

> You send something back in time.  There is now more, or different,
> matter at the time when it arrived.  The total amount of matter/energy
> in the universe at that time has changed.

Keep in mind that there is almost certainly *some* frame of reference
for which the movement in time is seen as an FTL movement in *space*.

>   *Local* casuality violations are things such as your future self
>   dropping in for a short visit.  As long as you actually *do* make the
>   visit, then the consequences aren't nearly as messy (in fact, you may
>   not be able to *not* make the visit!).
>
> Your future self comes for a visit.  You change your actions, so that
> you go visit yourself, which you would not have done otherwise.  I
> claim that this visit has the _same_ problems as the rock which is
> picked up, sent back through time, and put down where it was/will be
> picked up.

> Hmm.  Much of this discussion is pointless because we haven't decided
> on the "rules" for time travel.  Are there multiple universes?  Can
> you break causality?  Are there limits to directions or distances one
> can time travel?  What does it take to actually _do_ it?

Well, the first "rule" has to be that it can't break any rules we've
*already* got. Which is how physicists have managed to work out
"possible" time machines. 

The basic difference between "local" and "global" causality violations
is that "local" allows effects to apparently preceed causes, while
global could have effects that don't *have* causes. 

> Of course, one can also maintain that time travel machines don't
> exist.  If they did, eventually some idiot would hop in a time travel
> machine, go back, and kill the inventor before it gets finished.  So
> all promising time-travel researchers mysteriously die before
> finishing their projects.

Only if you allow the past to be changed. If it is fixed, then anything
he does would have already been done. And thus be part of his past.

In fact, theoretical studies of particle interactions via a "wormhole"
type time gate show that interactions between the past and future
particles *have* to be such that the past is conserved.

Later studies showed problems that prevent such wormholes from being
created, but the idea still stands. 

Try to use a time machine to shoot the inventor and your gun *will*
jam. If you persist, you may get struck by lighning. Or worse...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:22:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

In mail you write:

> At 11:42 PM 2/7/99 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
>>> stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
>>> Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.
>
>>You haven't given us the *good* stuff. Namely what the average daytime
>>and nighttime temps are. 
>
> Ah.  The dayside maximum is 212.4, the nightside minimum is 49.  The high
> atmospheric pressure retains heat fairly well, I suppose.

Huh? How do you get a average temp of 65.7 from a max of 212.4 and a
min of 49?

> The atmosphere is listed as Corrosive, so that's where I'm starting from.

Alas, I don't have a CRC handbook handy. If I did, I'd be able to look
up all sorts of "interesting" chemicals.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:14:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

In mail you write:

>>I think that you'll find that radar acts a lot more like infra-red than
>>an RF signal down a copper cable.
>
> No it does not.  Radar IS RF.  Lidar is IR or some other form of light.
> Radar is electronic in nature not photonic.  It is a radio signal.  Check
> the frequencys of naval radar units.  They are in the MHZ to GHZ range.  Low
> frequencey band (LF), high band (HF), very high band (VHF), ultra high band
> (UHF), and for close range and targeting radar the milimeter range
> (microwave).  I worked on and designed radar and lidar systems.  Radar uses
> coax and wave guides.  Photonic systems use fibre optic cable.  They are not
> interchangable.  Neather signal passes well (if at all) through the others
> conducter.

Optical fibers *are* waveguides. Just for much, much smaller
wavelengths. 

> Radar is not photonic.  Light as far as I know can not be canceled with
> phaze shift because all it's partical have the same charge (0).  Electronic
> signals have charge that can be canceled with their oposite.  The 'oposite'
> of an electron is a 'hole' which in effect is the lack of an electron rather
> that a partical in its' own right.

Nope. Radar is *photonic*. And light is electromagnetic waves. It's
just that at *those* wavelengths, the particle/wave duality falls out
differently. 

Radar waves do not have charges either. They have oscillating
electrical and magnetic fields. Phase canceling just places opposite
phases of the wave against each other, giving equal but opposite field
strengths.

You *can* do the same with light. Ever see an optoical interference
pattern? Same thing. Phases cancelling and reinforcing. 

> Note also that the speed of light varries with what it is passing through.

So does the speed of other EM radiation.

>         Assuming you are running your power plant, and assuming that the
> power plant is as heat wastefull as we think it is.  We can't build
> Traveller power plants so we have to guess at what they can and can not do.

Sorry, but unless you can overthrow the laws of thermodynamics, *all*
of the powerplant output winds up as heat sooner or later. Stuff like
radio and radar signals (and laser beams) are in the "later" class.
Even then, a good chunk of the power to generate them winds up as heat.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:37:05 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: UN-BS Denver (Battle Station (type SB)) (High Guard TL 11)

Fighting Ships Format								
UN-BS Denver Battle Station (type SB)			
                                M3004E4-A00004-45D08
MCr44672.97             30 ktons
	Batteries Bearing	           6 Q61 6				TL B
	Batteries		           5 M51 5			               Crew 373
Passengers=0. Cargo=600. Fuel=1200. EP=1200. Agility=1. Troops=164
Notes:  Q=24, M=21, Crew Includes all flight crews.
Carried Craft:  70 25-ton StarFury heavy fighters, 4 800-ton "Jewel"-Class
Missile Boats.  Three doors and one launch-tube for fighters

- -----------------------------

        UN-BS Denver (Battle Station (type SB))
        TL 11.  30000 tons.
        Using a 30000-ton, Cylinder hull, the Battle Station (type SB) is
Frontier military base for UN-DSN and UN-CMC  joint operations.
        It is performance-rated at jump-0, 0-G acceleration and 1200EP.
        Fuel tankage for 1200 tons supports the power plant.
        The ship is not fitted with fuel scoops and has a purification plant.
        Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/5fib and has a redundant
Model/5fib.  There is also an auxillary bridge.
        There are 360 staterooms, 0 standard low berths and emergency low
berths.
        The ship has a spinal PAWs, USP D, 6 Plasma Bays, 6 Missile Bays and
240 pulse lasers mounted on 80 turrets organized into 24 batteries.   For
defense it has 6 Repulsor Bays and an agility of 0.  There is a 300-ton
magazine and are 100% nuclear weapons normally carried.
        There are 74 ship's vehicles.  70 25-ton StarFury heavy fighters and
4 800-ton "Jewel"-Class Missile Boats.  Three doors support the MB's and
there is one launch-tube for fighters.
        Cargo capacity is 600 tons, supporting 2 months of isolated operations.
        The hull is partially streamlined.
        There are 0 tons of waste space.
        The Battle Station (type SB) requires a crew of 373.

                Crew Lists		Officers	Crew
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               Command Section		21	9
                Engineering		11	26
                Gunnery		                40	60
                Flight Section		21	185
                Ship's Troops		24	140
                Service Crew		6	54
                Passengers			
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	Subtotals	                             123	474

        The station costs MCr44672.969, including architects fees and takes
174 months to build.  

- -----------------------------

        The SSDS is available on my website, on the "Janes" page under
"Future Construction".  As always, comments and critique are welcome.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:38:26 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Phoenix Legacy by Wren

I'm hoping the denizens of the TML can help me with a world I'm developing.
 It is based on M.K. Wren's Phoenix Legacy Trilogy (Sword of the Lamb,
Shadow of the Swan, and House of the Wolf).

My questions are simple:  What would the Tech Level be for the Solar System
and Castor and Pollux?

What is the Government Type for these worlds?

My thoughts on tech level would be at most high 9 or low 10.  As to the
government type, I was thinking of either a Fuedal Technocracy or perhaps a
Charasmatic Oligarchy.

Comments?

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:44:05 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' 

> In mail you write:
> >   IIRC, the Ullerans were well-suited to the extremes of their own world 
> > (e.g., the polar mines), but are stated as being more susceptible to health
> > damage from working on Niflheim. OTOH, they work real cheap and two pairs 
> > of arms helps too...
> 
> I suspect that it also helped that they'd be less susceptible to
> radiation sickness. At least I'd assume that their tissues were more
> radiation resistant than human tissue.

I'd think they'd get less genetic damage, at least...

> BTW, wasn't it the Ullerans who used 20 mm *rifles*? As in fired from
> the shoulder? If so, they'd be a *lovely* species to let some of your
> more "firepower happy" players encounter. :-)

That is correct.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:47:48 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Problems

Gentles:

Every Digest I have received since Mid January has been blank or heaps of e-
gibberish. This has not occured with any other mailing list or download --
only TML. I can post just fine (as this proves) but cannot receive. 

Anyone have a clue? I rather like being in touch with the fan base for the
game I'm Line Editor of...: )

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:55:30 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: [none]

Dear Folks -

Ewan wrote
>> Speaking of computer skill - how do people feel about breaking the skill
up
>> into hardware and software components?

>Computer skill covers a large subject area, but then so do a lot of the
skills
>in traveller.
[snip]
>what of >the Traveller group who play at the local hospital, whould
>they split medical into supsets, and keep Computer as one ?

About as good as the specialist mages in AD&D - nice idea, but a generalist
is more usable because they are more flexible.

As I have said before on this list, it gets back to skill coverage. Have
too many skills and specialities, and you are not going to be able to cover
everything with a typical adventuring group. Too few and it becomes too
unrealistic or boring. That's why you add things such as Cascade, Cluster,
and Included skill sets. For Medical, have the person specialise in one
area but be able to do the other things at a reduced level of skill (the
specific mechanism will depend on which version of Trav you are using. ;-).

>My pennies worth is, if it gives you more enjoyment to do it, go for it
IYTU,
>but to add it to the rules, no.

Here's a compromise suggestion: add some sort of Cascade/Cluster idea as an
optional rule in T5, with an example of how a skill is diversified.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:54:07 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

First off, Thanks Damien!  I guess I should note that I've only hand-waved
the sub / hyper - sonic selection.  The hypersonic projectile may not be
ideal, but against unarmored targets or with aimed shots, who cares?  I
personally wouldn't want to get hit with ANYTHING moving at that many feet
per second!  :)  The main use I see for this type of on-demand switching is
if you need to quickly and silently take out a sentry.  If you can close
within an effective range quietly, then aim at the sentry's head (assuming
unarmored or partially armored target) and <squeeze> <thund>.  One less
sentry.  You can then switch back to hypersonic when the well-known
substance hits the rotating impeller.  Conceptually I've also got larger
caliber (read more effective) gauss rifles / pistols floating around in my
head, but I haven't done any FF&Sv2 work on it yet since I hate long math :)
Isn't there a design spreadsheet out there like Andy Akins' excellent
starship sheet that I use for those of us that hate math?  Two of my
favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
site.

Best,
Jesse DeGraff


- -----Original Message-----
From: Damien Fox <phocks@goodnet.com>
To: Traveller <traveller-digest@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:00 PM
Subject: Gauss weapons


>I was just looking at the Vision-Forge site.  Outstanding!  I did see
>something that aroused my curiosity.  This was the Gauss weapons, and I
have
>a question.  The description notes that they can be set to "subsonic
>velocity" which makes them effectively silent.  Now, I assume that either
>the ammo is differentiated for sub or hyper sonic mode, because the flight
>characteristics are going to be markedly different, or there is a great
>decline in effectiveness for the super-sonic rounds.  This would be because
>good hypersonic shapes tend to be innefficient sub-sonic shapes and
>vice-versa. You need special shapes for the  silent effect.  Also, it
>doesn't say, but a 4mm sub-sonic projectile is going to be pretty worthless
>against military armor- well, except on full auto.  Does anyone have any
>comments about this?  Note that the silent rounds would still be very
useful
>for sniping.
>
>Damien Fox
>phocks@goodnet.com
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #120
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 121



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Problems
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)
Re: Gauss weapons
Fw: Alien biology question...
Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?
Fw: Gauss weapons
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Lanthanum
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #120
Non-Trav Short Story...
Re: Real Traveller
Fw: Gauss weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:57:18 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Problems

>Every Digest I have received since Mid January has been blank or heaps of
e-
>gibberish.

Maybe we are just editing out the funny parts about you? ;)
Just kidding
TV

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:09:59 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Dear Folks -

Bruce asked:
>Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
>for a dreadnaught?

Oooh, I don't know, scout duty in the Extents? Following up on missing
AHL's to spinward (if something can take out a 60,000-ton cruiser, you may
need a bigger "stick" to retrieve it)? Interdiction of higher-TL worlds?

More ideas, anyone? (All of which make good adventure seeds ;-).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:06:53 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)

At 10:34 AM 2/10/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>Michael McKeown writes:
>> Following the thread it seems that GT ends up with much different 
>> worlds...I haven't gotten BtC yet...but is it radically different from 
>> the GDW supplement on the Marches? 
>
>BtC is basically consistent with canonical maps of the Marches.  
<snip>
No, it isn't really.  You have one world that has been Imperial since the
Spinward Marches was originally published, and now has never been Imperial
in BTC (1727).  23 Naval and Scout bases have disappeared.  One world
(0301) all of a sudden gained a 1000 fold increase in pop to become a High
Pop world (capitalized on maps), and 5 worlds (0416, 0627, 1011, 1102,
3025) lost their High pop rating (no longer capitalized on the maps).
X-boat routes have dissapeared (2326 - 2228 - 2231, and 2712 - 2510 -
2410).  Starports have changed without any reason (0607 went from an E(I)
to a X(0), and 2735 went from a D(II) to a B(IV)).

These are only the changes that have no reason listed in the world
description and that change older Traveller Maps.  This does not include
obvious errata in BTC, such as where the description says one thing, but
the stats omit it (such as Andor (0236) not listed as a Red Zone).  It also
does not list border changes that are listed (as most of these have
descriptions of why and/or are reasonable).

So, the maps from Traveller have changed considerably.

(Most of these map observations are based off the 17"x22" maps from Deluxe
Traveller and MegaTraveller)


Jimmy Simpson				nimrodd@fastlane.net
					nimrod@santech.com

Trust the computer industry to shorten "Year 2000" to Y2K. It was this
kind of thinking that caused the problem in the first place.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:06:59 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

You guys should take a look at 2300.
The French have a gauss rifle that has adjustable muzzle velocity. Turn it
down for full rock and roll (less recoil) and turn it up to snipe.

The Americans also have a silence enhanced gauss rifle, just for zapping
sentries.

THere is also  a BIG HONKING Guass sniper rifle.  It punches big holes at
long ranges.
tv

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:09:26 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Alien biology question...

The simplest method I have seen was used by Larry Niven- a race that had
macroscopic DNA.  Thus, radiation had little mutational effect.  On the
other hand, ionizing radiation would certainly still have a major impact on
tissue.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Akins <igor@truserve.com>
To: TML <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:46 PM
Subject: Alien biology question...


>I'm in the process of designing an alien race.
>
>Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking
how
>I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
>reasons _why_.
>
>This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
>What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
>BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
>
>An exoskeleton with "shielding" in it? This might work, but physical
>injuries could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...
>
>Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
>radiation?...
>
>Any insights would be appreciated...
>
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Andrew Akins                                                       |
>| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/ - AIM: Iowa Akins  |
>| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AIM: CMS AndyA   |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
>|       vi+ da+                                                      |
>| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
>|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 23:40:13 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Transmit from StutterWarp?

On 02/09/99 at 02:18 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>Can someone tell me from 2300AD whether you could transmit a light-speed
>>signal from a ship in stutterwarp?

Absolutely.  But the signal travels at light-speed.

>Yes, but the signal is going to be chopped all to hell.

IMTU, it depends on how many "jump cycles" per second the ship is
stuttering and the length of each "jump."  The ship is never outside
of real space, with each "jump" being instantaneous, so its movement
closely simulates continuous movement.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:49:06 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Gauss weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>First off, Thanks Damien!  I guess I should note that I've only hand-waved
>the sub / hyper - sonic selection.  The hypersonic projectile may not be
>ideal, but against unarmored targets or with aimed shots, who cares?  I
>personally wouldn't want to get hit with ANYTHING moving at that many feet
>per second!  :)  The main use I see for this type of on-demand switching is
>if you need to quickly and silently take out a sentry.  If you can close
>within an effective range quietly, then aim at the sentry's head (assuming
>unarmored or partially armored target) and <squeeze> <thund>.  One less
>sentry.  You can then switch back to hypersonic when the well-known
>substance hits the rotating impeller.

Well, the problem is, a round optimized for hypersonic flight will NOT be
even close to silent- relatively low-velocity rounds like the 9mm don't have
this problem, but as the 4mm is optimized for VERY high velocities, I would
imagine the effects would be evne worse.   Also, as I mentioned, a subsonic
4mm round will have comparitively weak energy (it's light, and now slow,
maybe as effective as a .22), carrying power (at subsonic velocities, its
presumably long, thin shape is more susceptible to buffetting and drag) and
its penetration will be negligible.  Still good for close-range sniping, but
as I see it, you would need special "silent" magazines for real
effectiveness.  This would also make it (slightly) harder for criminals to
use.

  Conceptually I've also got larger
>caliber (read more effective) gauss rifles / pistols floating around in my
>head, but I haven't done any FF&Sv2 work on it yet since I hate long math
:)
>Isn't there a design spreadsheet out there like Andy Akins' excellent
>starship sheet that I use for those of us that hate math?  Two of my
>favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
>sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
>switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
>tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
>site.

Remember, Gauss weapons have recoil and EM signature!  A 20mm would show up
real easy on a MAD- probably even better than a CPR slugthrower would on IR.
While the constant accelleration of the gauss projectile very slightly
lessens the recoil, the higher velocity still makes this a bipod-fired
weapon for most users.  Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the
bestest!


Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:56:45 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Thanks again for everyone's comments.  It definately means alot to me,
> especially after 60hr weekends with 12 hours of sleep to rush produce this
> stuff for the "Far Trader Sourcebook".

As a co-author of Far Trader and a person with Jesse's "Empress Marava at
Starport Warehouse" as their wallpaper, I greatly appreciate your work.

"How does he make those wonderful toys?"

- -Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 23:54:34 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

>I *used* to have a couple TRS CoCo 2's and a CoCo3.  Great lil
>machines,  especially when you ran them on OS9.  

Yep, I hear you.  I have a CoCo 2 in the closet next to the TRS80,
the Timex Sinclair and the Tandy 2000...the 1000 and Model 16, I
gave away.  ;->

OS9 is still used in a number of embedded applications.  I think
it's used in set-top boxes.

>> I'd even throw in the disk with the BASIC Traveller software, from the
>> JTAS, that I typed in many years ago.

>I never got around to typing them in.  

I'm not sure I could find the floppy, but I used them and the
portable in a bunch of FTF games back in the early 80's.  Heck, I
programmed star generation and character creation programs on data
strips for my TI calculator! 

>But then again, I've always been a Pascal freak, not a BASIC
>freak...

I hear you.  BASIC is good for quick and dirty, but pascal's data
structures are great when you have the time for well-designed
programs.  Did you buy an OS9 Pascal?  I looked at one, but never
bought it.

ObTrav...all the discussion of programming in the distant future,
just reread that. ;-> 


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:17:09 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

>Well, the problem is, a round optimized for hypersonic flight will NOT be
>even close to silent- relatively low-velocity rounds like the 9mm don't
have
>this problem, but as the 4mm is optimized for VERY high velocities, I would
>imagine the effects would be evne worse.   Also, as I mentioned, a subsonic
>4mm round will have comparitively weak energy (it's light, and now slow,
>maybe as effective as a .22), carrying power (at subsonic velocities, its
>presumably long, thin shape is more susceptible to buffetting and drag) and
>its penetration will be negligible.  Still good for close-range sniping,
but
>as I see it, you would need special "silent" magazines for real
>effectiveness.  This would also make it (slightly) harder for criminals to
>use.


I'll be the first to admit that even though I put an average of about 6,000
rounds per year through my HK USP and AR-15 Match, I don't know much about
how the projectile's shape affects hypersonic flight and it's effectiveness.
Is there a canon reference to the magazines being loud?  I've not seen one.

>Remember, Gauss weapons have recoil and EM signature!  A 20mm would show up
>real easy on a MAD- probably even better than a CPR slugthrower would on
IR.
>While the constant accelleration of the gauss projectile very slightly
>lessens the recoil, the higher velocity still makes this a bipod-fired
>weapon for most users.  Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the
>bestest!


I guess I don't understand how a frictionless barrel with no chemical
propellant causes recoil.  How's the EM sig generated?  By MAD are you
reffering to Magnetic Anomoly Detector or something else?  That's the only
abbreviation I know for MAD (aside from Mutually Assured Destruction that is
:)  I won't argue the x-ray laser.  <SIZZLE>

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:48:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

Ack, one of my favorite lines of all times, even though it was in a Batman
movie!  Well, the first one was ok.  Thanks Bloo!
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse


>
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
>> Thanks again for everyone's comments.  It definately means alot to me,
>> especially after 60hr weekends with 12 hours of sleep to rush produce
this
>> stuff for the "Far Trader Sourcebook".
>
>As a co-author of Far Trader and a person with Jesse's "Empress Marava at
>Starport Warehouse" as their wallpaper, I greatly appreciate your work.
>
>"How does he make those wonderful toys?"
>
>-Bloo
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:03:47 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #120

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Gauss weapons
>
>I was just looking at the Vision-Forge site.  Outstanding!  I did see
>something that aroused my curiosity.  This was the Gauss weapons, and I have
>a question.  The description notes that they can be set to "subsonic
>velocity" which makes them effectively silent.  Now, I assume that either
>the ammo is differentiated for sub or hyper sonic mode, because the flight
>characteristics are going to be markedly different, or there is a great
>decline in effectiveness for the super-sonic rounds.  This would be because
>good hypersonic shapes tend to be innefficient sub-sonic shapes and
>vice-versa. You need special shapes for the  silent effect.  Also, it
>doesn't say, but a 4mm sub-sonic projectile is going to be pretty worthless
>against military armor- well, except on full auto.  Does anyone have any
>comments about this?  Note that the silent rounds would still be very useful
>for sniping.

Ditzie would also like some more detail, as way down on her 'To Do' pile is
the FS Gauss Carbine, on the grounds Marketing (or, as she says,
Maaaaaarketing-ting-ting-ting) have come up with the slogan "At forty
rounds a second, the loudest sound from a Famile Spofulam Gauss Carbine
comes from the creak of the Ardalope-Hide trigger. Unless of course you
jack the velocity up to 2000 meters per second, like we do".

Now, will I have to build this baby with a dual magazine, or not ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:46:02 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Non-Trav Short Story...

This isn't Traveller, but it is Sci Fi.  Hopefully, Trav players will
like this as well--maybe even change it around to fit a Trav game (feel
free to do so).

I used to write Traveller stories when my game was going on.  Now that
I'm playing STAR WARS, I write SW stories...

Hope you enjoy it.

Kenneth.

PS  I took a little different approach with this one.  The players are
the "calvary" in this scenario.  They came rushing up on this docking
bay, flying low over the streets of Mos Eisley, and saw the glow of
blaster fire in the darkness.  It was this lone NPC SpecForce operative
holding her own against a squad of stormtroopers.  I thought it would be
cool to see what the story would be like from opposite the game--from
the NPC's perspective, as she saw the player's ship come rushing in over
head to the rescue...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



10 SECONDS IN THE LIFE OF JANNA BAEL

a short Star Wars story

by Kenneth D. Bearden  (Based on our last game, from the perspective of
the Rebel SpecForce NPC Janna Bael)

- --------------------



It was late and hot, and Janna Bael had just made a mistake that could
end her life.

Her entire team had been taken out less than an hour ago.  Twelve of
them had come--all of them highly trained by the Rebel Alliance.  Their
mission:  Obtain the R2 Droid aboard the Rebel freighter Eucliptan
Morae.  Return it safely to the Alliance Fallback Base.

They knew the ship was being watched in its berth at docking bay 73,
situated deep on the south edge of the city.  Intelligence had told them

that.  But, their commander was young and green, and he had led them
into a firefight.

Janna knew that Intelligence might have gotten something wrong under the

current circumstances.  It wasn't only a probability.  It was probable.
But, Lt. Barnes stuck to the plan set up back at the base.  He wasn't
seasoned enough to think on his feet in a combat situation.

The second Imperial team hit them from the opposite flank, and the
blaster bolts began flying.  The Lt., the poor bastard, was one of the
first to catch one of them.

Sergeant Reeves took command of the team at that point.  Reeves was a
good man.  Janna had served with him a long time.  The safe move would
have been to fall back, regroup, and assess the situation.  Reeves knew
this, but he also knew that coordinates to the Alliance's secret Rebel
Base wasn't something you gambled with.  You didn't give stormtroopers
even a chance at this sort of information.

Reeves ordered the team to push forward toward the ship.  They took it,
but their team of 12 had dropped to four, and Reeves wasn't one of the
lucky ones.

As the trooper with seniority, Janna took command, and she knew it would

only be minutes, or less, before Imperial reinforcements arrived.

Sledggge and Dekon she ordered to disable the ship.  Parrrwar posted
lookout while Janna locked in a command code on the Droid and ordered it

to erase the base data if the team was captured or killed.

Parrrwar engaged stormtroopers just outside the bay.  Janna ordered
Sledggge and Dekon out to assist, then instructed the Droid to wait by
the ship's landing ramp.

When Janna exited to join the firefight, she was the only one left.  The

troopers spotted her and began firing.  She did the only thing she could

do.  She made a run for it.

The troopers chased her, and she ducked into the bay's maintenance
garage.  Over her comlink, she ordered the R2 unit to hide.  For the
next 42 minutes, it was a cat and mouse game with the stormtroopers.
She was alone.  She hadn't completed her mission.  And, she wasn't quite

sure where the Droid was hiding.

Safe for a moment on the roof of a building, Janna tried to call for
reinforcements from the base.  Static barked back at her.  The Imperials

had instituted communications jamming.  She was in trouble.

She kept circling the bay, moving from building to building but keeping
the docking bay in her line of sight.  Although it was risky to move,
she knew that staying put in one place would be  inviting the
stormtroopers to find her.  Her training had taught her that.  She would

move, listen, try her comm, then move again.

Finally...someone answered.  She had either made it outside the jamming
range, or the Imperials had decided that the disruption to their own
communications was too hindering.

Over the pre-set frequency came some alien voice, but she didn't really
much care.  She'd take any help she could get.  They talked in code, and

she did her best to tell the respondent that she was alone.

And the alien replied, "We are coming...over."

A chill rushed through her.  She sprinted across the street, into the
docking bay complex.  No stormtroopers.  Moments later, she was on the
ship.  Again, no stormtroopers, but no Droid either.

Outside the ship, she switched frequency to contact the Droid.  The
warble of the R2 unit came back to her both over the comm and to her
ear.  He was close.  She looked at the vehicle garage across the bay.
There, on the deck of a cargo skiff, the red and blue lights on the R2
unit glowed back at her.  Moments later, she boarded the skiff...


...and that's when it became apparent that she wasn't the only one who
had heard the Droid's reply.  Blaster bolts came flying at her from the
street entrance.  The stormtroopers were back.

Janna hit the accelerator.  The Droid skidded across the deck of the
speeder with the sudden movement.  She positioned the skiff close to the

ship in the bay to provide cover to her rear flank.  Then she kneeled on

the skiff's deck and returned fire.  Blaster bolts slammed into the
skiff and the ship behind her.

It wasn't looking good.

Like magic, a ship appeared out of nowhere.  It was one of those
Corellian YT freighters--it's command pod raised between the two bow
mandibles instead of skewed to one of the sides.

At the sight of the ship, the stormtrooper attack heated into a vicious
thrust.  Janna kept returning fire, keeping her concentration on the
immediate threat in front of her.  It wasn't until she heard the scream
of Twin Ion Engines that she looked up.

The bulk of the freighter almost blotted out the entire night sky, but
she noticed the ship's entry ramp was already open.  Near the lip of the

ramp stood a skinny Wookiee with a small, frog-like creature on his
back.  Turbolaser bolts scorched across the sky from aft of the ship,
exploding into the freighter's drive section. The light from the energy
release lit up the entire docking bay.  As the ship rocked from the
impact, the Wookiee and the green frog-thing were thrown off the ramp.
They were falling, head over feet, about 30 meters over the Eucliptan
Morae's dorsal spine.

And this was when Janna witnessed a true miracle.  The frog-creature had

fell away from the Wookiee, but the Wookiee somersaulted and reached out

with his two long hairy arms to grab the creature by it's spotty legs.
As the two of them fell, the Wookiee pulled the frog-creature around his

neck and clasped its legs together with one hand using a grasp at the
ankles.  Simultaneously, the Wookiee was falling and twisting, head over

foot.

Janna doesn't know how, but the Wookiees last spin landed him on the
upper hull of the Morae, feet first.  The Wookiee stumbled, took three
short steps that made him look drunk, then steadied himself.  One hand
still clasped the frog creature's legs, but the frog was jerking around
on the Wookiee's back like a loose flap of skin.  The long snout on the
creature was yelling something in an alien tongue that echoed in the
docking bay and sounded something like, "Tic Tonnannon....Wow!"

The freighter began to lower itself into the bay, and for a moment,
Janna thought that the ship was going to land on top of the other
ship--and her.  In the crack of night sky that she could see between the

edge of the docking bay and the looming freighter, she could see four
TIE fighters streak by on a close attack vector.  The quad mount in the
freighter's ventral turret swiveled to track these starfighters, and
although it was impossible, Janna could feel the gunner achieve his
lock.

Blam.  Blam.  The four turbolasers fired a millisecond behind each
other.  She couldn't see the fireball, but the night sky lit up like the

morning had arrived.  The thunder and concussion was enough to make the
stormtroopers stop firing at her.

Janna pulled her comlink and shouted.  No response, she acted fast,
switched to a general push--damn the troopers--and shouted again.

"Noooo!  The ship is disabled!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:08:46 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Real Traveller

From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> The exact "bells and whistles" are not important, but it is important
that the
> rules:
> 
> 1) work
> 2) be simple (I know that a lot of people like complicated rules (like
me),
> but I feel that simple Star Wars style rules bring in the new blood/rug
rats.
> Perhaps T5 should have a "kiddie" module of starter rules?
> 3) be consistent
> 4) be edited for loopholes. I hate "rules weasels".

Yes to all of the above.  Particularly 2.  I hate learning rules.  

Also:  There should be lots and lots and lots of examples of how to do
everything.  They shouldn't be interspersed with the rules though - this
makes things too hard to find.  

Personally, I would like a booklet format - the rules are in one or three
of them, the examples are in another, accurately cross-referenced(!!!), and
with a big booklet on how to referee, design scenarios, and so on.  This
was the biggest glitch in CT - it left you on your own in this area.

And then you stick in the setting stuff, completely separate from the
mechanics.  You can add the optional complex rules later.  They should have
lots of examples too.

Of course all this really requires you to go with a box, rather than a book
format.  So what?  Stick the booklets together to make the book - just have
the boxed version there for those of us with tiny brains.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:45:02 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Gauss weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>I'll be the first to admit that even though I put an average of about 6,000
>rounds per year through my HK USP and AR-15 Match, I don't know much about
>how the projectile's shape affects hypersonic flight and it's
effectiveness.
>Is there a canon reference to the magazines being loud?  I've not seen one.

Well, not the magazines themselves, I mean magazines pre-loaded with
specially designed sub-sonic ammo, the only difference in the magazine
itself would probably be some sort of "catch" that tells the weapon to fire
subsonic only.

>
>>Remember, Gauss weapons have recoil and EM signature!  A 20mm would show
up
>>real easy on a MAD- probably even better than a CPR slugthrower would on
>IR.
>>While the constant accelleration of the gauss projectile very slightly
>>lessens the recoil, the higher velocity still makes this a bipod-fired
>>weapon for most users.  Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is
the
>>bestest!
>
>
>I guess I don't understand how a frictionless barrel with no chemical
>propellant causes recoil.  How's the EM sig generated?  By MAD are you
>reffering to Magnetic Anomoly Detector or something else?  That's the only
>abbreviation I know for MAD (aside from Mutually Assured Destruction that
is
>:)  I won't argue the x-ray laser.  <SIZZLE>


Well, basically, it's all action and reaction. The entire recoil of a
conventional firearm is produced by the bullet and gasses escaping from the
front of the weapon.  In the case of a recoiless gun, the energy of the
balance mass equals the energy of the projectile plus expelled propellent.
A gauss weapon only worries about the projectile, but its action-reaction.
BTW, HEPLAR drives, ion drives, in fact all rockets work on the principal of
expelling mass at high velocity to produce thrust.  In guns, an admittedly
inefficient thruster, the proplulsion is know as recoil.  And while the lack
of gasses would reduce recoil, it would not even come close to eliminating
it.  As for MAD signature, you are correct, and trust me, that intense a
spike of local magnetic activity would show up on present-day sensors.  By
definition, the gauss weapon is using an intense magnetic field to
accelerate a projectile.  Since in most enviroments, ie no ferrous rocks
intervening, you can detect this anaomoly THROUGH the terrain, firing a
gauss weapon will quickly and unerringly pont out your position.  I freely
admit however, I have no idea if this effect could be easily shielded or
not.  All this aside, the gauss rifle would still be more useful than a CPR.
Even the supersonic rounds aren't that easy to detect.  If you have ever
been in the butts, you will no what I mean.  The crack of the bullet would
be loud, but by itself would give no real indication of where it was coming
from to the individual troop.


Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #121
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 122



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fw: Traveller-digest V1999 #120
Re: Time Travel
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
False Advertising?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91
Re: GT worldbuilding
Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT
Re: Computer Programming in Traveller
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)
Re: Planet-building advice needed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:54:07 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Traveller-digest V1999 #120

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #120


>Ditzie would also like some more detail, as way down on her 'To Do' pile is
>the FS Gauss Carbine, on the grounds Marketing (or, as she says,
>Maaaaaarketing-ting-ting-ting) have come up with the slogan "At forty
>rounds a second, the loudest sound from a Famile Spofulam Gauss Carbine
>comes from the creak of the Ardalope-Hide trigger. Unless of course you
>jack the velocity up to 2000 meters per second, like we do".
>
>Now, will I have to build this baby with a dual magazine, or not ?
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
Well,  40rounds/sec looks good, until you realize your mag only holds 2-3
bursts.  I'll set mine to 5 round bursts, thanks, and at 2000/sec, you're
using expensive alloys, as steel will be glowing enough to provide tracer
effects in dim light.  Also, putting that many joules throught he barrel
will presumably turn your rifle to plasma in short order.  Remember entropy-
a certain, probably large, percentage of the current you use for the
magentics will inevitably escape as heat, and the canon gauss weapon can't
use cartridge cases to "sink" it, and the closer to frictionless the barrel
is, the less is transferred to the projectile.  I would think that
velocities of <1000m/s would be far more useful.   But dual magazines would
be neato.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:10:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:08:02 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Time Travel
...
>Try to use a time machine to shoot the inventor and your gun *will*
>jam. If you persist, you may get struck by lighning. Or worse...

  What? A farm-house will land on you?

  Well, maybe, but only if you're wearing ruby slippers...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:24:26 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote

> Craig Barnett wrote:
> 
> > The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in 
> > Imperial Service, and are now being phased out of service.  Within 
> > the last decade (approx 1107) several ships have been disposed of to 
> > other services such as the scouts..

> Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service 
> have for a dreadnaught?

The Scout Service are the people out there in Far Frontiers Sector (for
instance) three sectors spinward of the Marches and only half a sector
rimward of the Zhodani Consulate who are engaged in "exploration".  If
the Imperium was to send a Naval ship there this might create a
diplomatic incident.  If the _same_ ship is transfered to the Scout
Service and used as a "base ship" for a large "scouting" (ie spying)
mission it will be less objectionable.  The Scout Service is (IMTU and
to a certain degree in canon) the Imperiums service of choice for
extraimperial missions of the  "When you've got them by the ba*** their
hearts and minds will follow" type.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:39:32 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: False Advertising?

>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:03:47 +1000
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
...
>Maaaaaarketing-ting-ting-ting) have come up with the slogan "At forty
>rounds a second, the loudest sound from a Famile Spofulam Gauss Carbine
>comes from the creak of the Ardalope-Hide trigger. Unless of course you
>jack the velocity up to 2000 meters per second, like we do".

  Remember, Comrade, it's a weapon _system_ - you have to include the
operators crazed laughter in the signature calculations.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:22:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #91

In mail you write:

> At 14:13 08/02/1999 -0500, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Real, low-level stuff, actually twiddling the bits, would have been
>>taken over by optimizing compilers long, long ago. Programming in
>>'languages' would be viewed as beyond quaint; as if someone came up to
>>me today and announced that he'd gotten his Jaquard loom to calculate
>>logarithms...or that he'd keyed in a program flipping switches on the
>>face of his Altair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>There will be problems that optimized compilers can't fix, and solutions
>>that the standard modules won't be quite right for. While situations where
>>the programmer has to hack right down to the machine's own level will
>>become steadily rarer, these situations will exist - and the dying breed
>>of techs who can do this kind of work will command steadily higher
>>prices.
>
> We are already getting to the point where machine code will be
> too complex to write because you have to work out the possible
> code schedules depending of the results of each test.
> Alternatively the hardware might be running what we would call a
> high level language as its machine code.

This has already happened. There was a chip (probably still is) that
executes "p-code" directly. P-code was a sort of "medium level"
language developed from Pascal as a sort of "intro to machine language"
(or so I was told).

And I've heard rumors of chips that execute the basic Forth
code set and "tiny BASIC" as their "machine language". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:27:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT worldbuilding

In mail you write:

> However, even without that I would still be of the opinion that a
> breathable atmosphere requires a flourishing flora and fauna.

You can get that at a point well before any land life has evolved.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:30:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Personal Identification, etc. [TML]

In mail you write:

>>Well, I've given what was actually *occuring* in real history at
>>various times. And keep in mind the fact that the most *recent* info
>>available to the public on the techniques used for decryption by the
>>government is from the *50s*.
>
> Not at all, the information on modern decryption techniques is
> available on the net. In fact, the net is the location of the most
> modern crypto techniques, including the one that
> broke 128-bit RSA encryption recently

Info on how to decrypt a message encrypted with a known system. And in
the case of public key ciphers, with a known public key.

I'm talking about the techniques used to decrypt a ciphered message
when you have no idea what system was used to encrypt it. In other
words *cryptanalysis* techniques. 

>>We have *partial* info on encryption techniques since then.
>
> Actually we have _complete_ information on modern crypto techniques.
>
> The concept of the enemy not knowing your encryption technique is not
> currently considered a serious way of protecting your information.

True. But it doesn't *hurt* either.

> A modern cryptogrphic method _must_ be able to stand up well to an
> enemy that has both the algorithm and the ability to have any text
> they like encrypted by you.

I suggest that you try telling this to the NSA. It is a *fact* that
they will not disclose *algorithms*. And their reason is that it
*might* make it easier to crack the ciphers.

Heck, just think back to the cipher that was offered as a replacement
for DES. The NSa *refused* to make the algorithm public. 

> This happens to be simple, knowing the algorithm doesn't really help
> you crack 2048-bit RSA encryption.

On the contrary. It helps considerably. Just *try* decrypting a message
encrypted with DES with one of the RSA key-search engines. 

Just consider what happened to the "knapsack" based ciphers when there
was a breakthrough in number theory. Suddenly the "hard" mathematical
problem wasn't. And a whole family of ciphers went out the window.

>>There's *no* info avialable (to my knowledge) about computer assisted
>>cracking of codes, or of modern bit-oriented ciphers.
>
> There's tons actually. Try the crypto newsgroup faqs, and the many
> excellent mathematics texts on the subjects (I'd give a reference, but
> I don't currently have access to my library)

Last time I looked, the consensus was that the NSA knew a *lot* that
the academic community didn't on the subject. And they aren't about to
release any of it.

> In general though, while a few techniques can be used to narrow the
> search space, the only realistic methods of cracking are brute force,
> the arguments are merely over which brute force search pattern is
> likley to be optimal, a simple example would be: "is sequentially
> trying each possible key better than randomly trying each possible key
> ?"

And as I noted above, you can't try keys unless you know *which* cipher
was used. So there have to be ways to determine which cipher was used.

And again, as I noted, brute force is used because the algorithm is
mathematically hard to reverse engineer. And ciphers have been dropped
when it became easy to reverse engineer the algorithm.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:06:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

In mail you write:

>>>>TL 7 : 'public key' systems ; early steganography (hiding messages in
>>>>plain view e.g. embedded messages in graphic and WP files).
>>>
>>> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual
>>> encryption schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned
>>> about public key encryption.

>>Nope. The math involved *requires* computers.

> You mean computers were required to enable the first implementation of the
> code.  Everything can be done on paper, given enough time :)

Sorry, but the public key codes are based on factoring *large* numbers.
Generating a key requires coming up with two *large* prime numbers. You
also generate their product.

You encrypt and decrypt by doing binary multiplication of your key and
the text (converted into a *huge* binary number). 

So in effect you are multiplying 30 or 40 digit number (the key) by a
several hundred digit number. And you decrypt by dividing the result by
another 30 or 40 digit number.

There are more details than this. But you get the idea. A cipher that
requires several *weeks* to encrypt a message is not going to get used.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:13:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

In mail you write:

>
>>> Hmmm. I wonder if 'public key' systems can be adapted to manual
> encryption
>>> schemes? I've forgotten almost everything I ever learned about
> public key
>>> encryption.
>>
>>Nope. The math involved *requires* computers.
>
> No it doesn't.
>
> I'll admit it's tedious to do by hand, and if anyone tried doing it
> regulalrly  they'd very quickly design some sort of machine to help
> them, like say the Enigma machine, but I did 24-bit RSA encryption by
> hand as part of my university training in 1989
>
> The maths is really quite simple, the hard part is finding two large
> enough prime numbers, and large prime numbers are definitely findable
> by hand, just very tedious again.
>
> Of coruse we only encrypted and decrypted a small two word message.
> :-)

And how long would it have taken to do a 100 word message? 

Like I said. Without a computer, forget it. 

And those machines *are* computers. Dedicated to a specific
application, but computers. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:59:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller (long)

In mail you write:

> Just remember this...Computers have existed for about 50-55 years. Compilers
> for about 45, high level languages for a bit less (COBOL and FORTRAN were
> invented in what, the late 50's?). Certainly less than a single lifetime.
>
> Traveller is set 3000+ years from now.
>
> Computer programming in Traveller is to computer programming now as
> interactive CD's are to Babylonian cunieform tablets.
>
> Or to make a more probable analogy, as a fish is to a bicycle.

Just keep in mind the fact that transistors have existed for about the
same amount of time. And we've already hit the *limits* on many of
their applications. 

It no longer needs centuries to go from first application to fully
mature technology. 

Yes, programming will evolve. Being a subset of mathematics, it will
evolve indefinitely. But it won't necessarily be unrecognizable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:15:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>Robert O'Connor writes:
>>>>Continuing on codes, crypto and related issues :-
>>>>TL 3 : industrial revolution --? Code pads (sender and receiver have
>>>>synchronised rolling ciphers).
>>>
>>> You can do that at TL 0
>> 
>>TL 0 on *his* scale excludes writing.
>
> There's no tech level so low that you can't have writing. All you need is
> an implement and a medium. A small pointed stick and a slab of clay, for
> instance.

"By definition" writing is one of the things that makes you TL 1. 

It's a *lot* more advanced concept than it appears to be. The idea that
marks *represent* something is not simple. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:42:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT

In mail you write:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>> 
>> An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.
>
> Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted, low
> oxygen content'.

But it's still *inherently* impossible to have an atmosphere that has
very thin through dense *pressure*, but no oxygen. Yet this *should* be
common. 

Well, you can have it as "exotic". But that just screws up the
probability. Because that sort of atmosphere should actually be pretty
*common*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:07:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer Programming in Traveller

In mail you write:

>> Yes, there are differences between Visual C++ and Visual Basic in
> performance.
>> But we're sort of like two cavemen sitting around arguing about which color
>> flint will be used for the tools to construct the Space Station.
>
> LOL.  That's a good analogy.  And funny, too. ; )
>
> Traveller computers (especially those w/ organic computer cores, etc) are
> probably completely unlike anything we're familiar with now, which would mean
> the same thing for the software....

Actually, computers are computers. The software doesn't really care
that much about the underlying hardware. Or rather, the *program*
doesn't. The compiler/interpreter does. 

Programming (and hence, software) is a matter of rules and logic. It's
a form of math. Really.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:16:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

In mail you write:

> Lars Adler wrote:
>> 
>> Based on Schroedinger's Cat Theorem there exist multiple universes each
>> time a decision by time is involved. If you travel back in time and try to
>> alter the chain of events, a new universe dispatches from the old and
>> takes you with it. So in your view, you changed the course of history, but
>> in the view of others (also future ones) you changed your course
>> through history.
>> 
>
> Larry Niven wrote a short story based on this concept. In a later essay,
> he explains why he doesn't like these "sideways in time" stories: they
> screw up the laws of probability.
>
> If I roll a six-sided die, six universes exist: one for each possible
> outcome. However, if the die is loaded, one of the universes should be
> more "probable" than the other five. However, in the "sideways in time"
> concept, that just doesn't matter. All outcomes are equally likely.

Except that they *aren't*. He *made* them equally likely by *saying*
that they were. His argument is circular.

In actuality, there are millions of quantum level events involved in
the toss of a die. If the die is not loaded, then in 1/6th of those
event chains it'll come up a 1. If it's loaded, then it'll come up 1 in
most of them.

The probabilities of macroscopic events are the proportion of the total
possible events AT THE QUANTUM LEVEL that come out in a given way. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:48:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

In mail you write:

>         I've been thinking more about the question of a good
> non-terracentric unit of interstellar distance measurement.  The problem
> is this:  According to modern physics, C (light speed) is the only real
> constant.  
>
>         This means that you're stuck with either choosing an arbitrary
> distance unit (such as the parsec) or choosing an arbitrary time unit and
> multiplying by C to get, for example, the light-year, light-second, etc. 
> The thing that gets me is that people in the Traveller universe would use
> the parsec as a unit.  It's based on the earth's orbit, why would other
> races use it?  One possibility is that they don't, and the maps we see are
> simply made according to Imperial convention for player convenience (I
> think there is a mention in S&A of Aslan males using a different unit
> while females use the parsec to help smooth trade).  

>         This may solve that problem, but then one is still stuck with the
> mystery of why jump drives so conveniently work in units of whole parsecs. 
> Is there some fundamental relationship between Earth's orbit and jump
> physics?  Again, you can argue that jumps really don't happen in parsec
> units, but then I'd like to know what the unit actually is. Canon seems to
> suggest that it's a discrete scale, that there cannot be Jump 0.5 drives,
> for instance, so what's the actual unit if it's not really the parsec?

Actually, the "Imperial parsec" might *not* be equal to the "Terran
parsec". All they have to be is *close*. And then folks will cheerfully
keep using the old term for the new unit. Much like "nautical miles"
which actually have *no* relation to miles. Instead they are based on
angle (really!).

So if I ever have to explain it, I'll just say that the max range of a
J1 drive just happens to be within 1% of a "real" parsec. 

It's a coincidence. Much like the fact that c is pretty close to "1
g-year" (9.8 * 86400 * 365 = 3.090528e8 m/s). Interesting, but of no
*real* significance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:31:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

In mail you write:

> Your logic shows that my (and Larry Niven's) example is not a good one.
> The point that I was trying to make is that the parallel universe
> concept, as detailed in the post to which I replied, implies that all
> possible outcomes for a given _single_ event are equally probable.
>
> Your comment showed that my example is not a single event, it is a
> complex series of motions involving trillions of "sub-events", each of
> which has a different outcome.
>
> The flaw lies in the example, not in the logic. A good example must be a
> single event that has multiple outcomes, but where at least one outcome
> is more likely than the others.
>
> Finding any one such example disproves the parallelism theory. I suspect
> than these examples will all have to be of a subatomic particle nature,
> and I don't have the physics background to come up with them.

Actually, it *doesn't* disprove parallelism. Such phenomena are
*common* at the subatomic level. And physicists don't see them as
disproving the "many worlds" model. 

Nothing says that there has to be just *one* universe per possible
outcome. Just that there has to be *at least* one. The probabilities
reflect the number in which each of the various outcomes occurs.

> I throw it out to the list: does anyone have an example of a
> multiple-outcome event, with at least one outcome more likely than
> others, where the event is not composed of smaller events?

Pion decay. As i recall, there's a pion that can decay into either two
*or* three particles. One is far more likely than the other.

But the problem is that there is an essentially *infinite* number of
ways for *any* decay to take place. Since momentum needs to be
conserved, the momentum of the resultant particles has to add up to the
same as that of the original particle. But there are an *infinite*
number of ways to do this. Even if all the resultants share the
momentum equally, there's the matter of what *directions* they are
going in. 

So you see, the idea of "only" a few outcomes is incorrect. 

Infinities are *common* in quantum theory. This is just another one.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:24:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere and G:T vs. CT

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>It shows the usual bit with the Earth forming 4.8 billion years ago,
>>and life starting shortly after it got cool enough. And than at 3.6
>>billion years ago it has the first blue-green algae. Ok fine. That's
>>when we started getting O2 in the atmosphere. 
>> 
>>But what got me was the next item. 1.2 billion years ago. That's when
>>Earth finally had a *year round* oxygen atmosphere (and soon after a
>>permanent ozone layer). Until then we only had an oxygen atmosphere in
>>the summer, and not much of one at that.
>> 
>>I'd never encountered that "detail" before. And it got me thinking.
>>That's an *awfully* long time in the history of the planet. I wonder
>>how many "tainted", "tainted thin", "thin", etc atmospheres are simply
>>due to the planet being young? It gives us another possible explanation
>>for some of the weird atmospheres.
>
> I had similar thoughts when I saw that detail in GURPS:Dinosaurs, but I
> don't think so. The definition of thin to dense atmospheres means that
> there is enough free oxygen present for a human to survive on it without
> a compressor. There is some doubt that this was the case even 300 million
> years ago (though GURPS:Dinosaurs does say that this is debated and that
> anyone who wants their timetravelling humans to be able to breathe on
> visits to the dawn of dinosaurs are free to assume that they can.
>
> An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.

Which is one of the objections I've had to Traveller's world gen rules
from the start. The atmosphere types have this *huge* built-in
assumption. 

> I'm more interested in the corrolary: Any Traveller world with a thin to
> dense atmosphere will have a fairly mature ecosphere.

Like I said, a *huge* built-in assumption.

I'd really like a system generation system that makes more physical
sense. The planets will tend to depend on what sort of star you have
(and for going from pre-generated planets to system details, the star
types need to be *really* limited!).

One *major* detail should be that oxygen atmospheres will require both
life *and* a fairly "old" planet. 

Without life, a planet like earth should have a mostly nitrogen
atmosphere with a fair amount of CO2. Hydro should be "normal", maybe a
bit higher than on earth (most of the O2 in the air came from water,
not CO2).

Get it a bit warmer and you get CO2 runaway like Venus. Get it a bit
colder and you'll have frozen oceans, and maybe massive glaciation. But
still the N2/CO2 atmosphere.

A few *rare* planets should have odd elemental abundances, and thus
have atmospheres with odd active gases (and life to go with them).
Chlorine atmosphere not only require lots of chlorine, but some sort of
life form that keeps replacing the chlorine. 

Heck, there's strong evidence that the presence/absence of life will
even affect *mineral* deposits!

So we really should have the atmosphere chart just list pressure, and
have a seperate roll for planetary age, and a roll for life. Atmosphere
*composition* would depend on age and life. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:15:29 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

> From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
> Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking how
> I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
> reasons _why_. 
> This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
> What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
> BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
> Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
> radiation?...
> Any insights would be appreciated...

	I am no biologist either, but we humans only have two alleles per 
gene. Imagine this race has not two, but eight copies of each. 
Redundancy! It takes several simultaneous mutations for one to get 
fro the genotype to the phenotype. And this has a very, very low 
probability...
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:19:36 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)

Thanks for the observation..maybe I'll stick with my little orange book 
:)



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:21:31 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >>In mail you write:
> >>
> >>> OK, I'm doing Drowlaw/Lunion.  EAB311-D (IMTU)  Doing the world builder
> >>> stuff gave me these salient points:  Grav 1.4g,  Average temp 65.7C,  Atm
> >>> Pressure 10.0, Day length 1464 hours.

> > Ah.  The dayside maximum is 212.4, the nightside minimum is 49.  The high
> > atmospheric pressure retains heat fairly well, I suppose.
> 
> Huh? How do you get a average temp of 65.7 from a max of 212.4 and a
> min of 49?

I suppose he means that the distribution is *not* uniform. In fact, 
in RL there is simply no way to get the average only from the minimum 
and the maximum. You need a (preferably large) sample of temperatures 
at all times.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #122
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 123



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: World Building Help Needed
Re: Problems
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Timetravel Paradox 
Re: Fw: Gauss weapons
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
re: Timetravel paradoxes
[none]
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)
Re: Combat Support Element
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:03:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance

In mail you write:

>>The speed of light seems to be a good starting point, since it is a
>>universal constant (probably :-).  Now we need a universal unit of time,
>>something like the half-life of cobalt or something like that...any
>>suggestions?
>
> How about the amount of time it takes light to move a certain percentage of
> the Galactic Radius. That's fairly universal.

Nope. The galaxy doesn't really *have* a "radius". It just sort of
"peters out". Any "edge" is a purely *arbitrary* decision. 

> Using 2 unique stars would work in place of the galactic radius, but this
> could end up again being unique to the race that controls those stars

And it'll vary. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:05:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

In mail you write:

> I'm in the process of designing an alien race.
>
> Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking how
> I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
> reasons _why_.
>
> This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
> What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
> BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
>
> An exoskeleton with "shielding" in it? This might work, but physical
> injuries could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...

Won't help. If the world is that radioactive, they'll have
radio-isotopes as *part* of their bodies.

> Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
> radiation?...

That's what the bacteria and algae that manage to live *inside* active
reactors have. Yes, there really *are* such critters. They can even be
a nuisance by clogging filters.

Muticellular life will have a harder time of it, but it may be
possible. 

Another item that is needed is a cellular "scrubber" mechanism that
will neutralize un-wanted "free radicals" almost immediately. That's
how most of the damage from radiation occurs. The radiation breaks up a
molecule, which leaves the pieces as very reactive free radicals. They
react with things they shouldn't and screw stuff up. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:47:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Building Help Needed

In mail you write:

> I am building a world using the ol' WBH, and I need a suitable primary gas
> for my atmosphere given that:
>
> It is a Corrosive (B) atmosphere
> The average world temperature is -56.24 degrees celcius (and as a size 6
> world with a small, cold, red star, it never gets much better than -24
> celcius or so, and can drop as low as -100)
> The atmospheric pressure is 25.00
>
> So, I need a substance that can be gaseous during at least SOME of this
> temperature range, under pressure (does that make a difference?), and if the
> substnce in question behaves differently within that temperature range,
> please so inform me!

Well, in general the colder something gets, the less reactive it is. So
your corrosive will be a *lot* less corrosive than it would be at
normal temperatures. 

Just off the top of my head, at those temps it'd have to be chlorine,
fluorine, or *possibly* some gases such as HCl (hydrogen chloride), HF
(hydrogen fluoride). I think those are about all the gasses that are
likely to be both gases and corrosive at those temps. But you'll have
to look up the boiling points of HF and HCl. Cl boils at -37 so it'd be
liquid most of the time.

Oops! I forgot the pressure. At 25 ATM I suspect only the fluorine will
be a gas. 

> (Finally (yes, I'm being a pain), what would happen if one tried to extract
> Hydrogen (for fuel), Oxygen (for air) or water from same, assuming they had
> the gear to do so.  What by-products would these create?

Well, you *can't* extract *any* from fluorine. It's an element. There
won't be *any* water. Oxygen would exist only as Oxygen fluoride (OF?)
which is both corrosive itself, and not too stable. As in expose it to
metal or anything that flourine likes *better* than oxygen, and you'll
wind up with the flurine combining with the "whatever" and the
released oxygen atom (which will be *highly* reactive) trying to grab
some for itself.

My advice is to hit a used book store that has a "technical books"
section (or hit a college bookstore, where it may cost more) and grab a
copy of the CRC Handbook of chemistry and physics. One *invaluable*
section it'll have is several hundred pages (it's a *big* book) listing
the properties of inorganic compounds. 

With that table, you can look up all sorts of compounds and check out
their properties for this sort of thing. 

Damn near *everything* on a planet like this would be fluorides of one
sort or another. And damned if I know how it could form. But it's about
the only thing I can think of that'd fit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:11:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Problems

In mail you write:

> Gentles:
>
> Every Digest I have received since Mid January has been blank or heaps of e-
> gibberish. This has not occured with any other mailing list or download --
> only TML. I can post just fine (as this proves) but cannot receive. 
>
> Anyone have a clue? I rather like being in touch with the fan base for the
> game I'm Line Editor of...: )

Since we aren't hearing massive complaints, I'd tend to suspect AOL.
Maybe you need to get an account somewhere else?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:53:38 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <Paradin@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Hello friends,

you know, you are just to nice.

There are these fine tranquillizer rounds, which will silence a sentry, too. In
case you want him to be silent on a permanet base, just exchange just exchange
the tranq stuff with whatever you have in mind .......


As for the efficiency subject, this usually applies to lift, not to drag. The
primary consideration while constructing subsonic wings is to produce lift, for
supersonic wings it is to avoid drag).

It  is quite simple to adjust the muzzle-energy of a gauss-weapon (just another
switch).
IMHO changing the magazine of a gauss-weapon is just not worth the trouble. You
might be in a combat situation, after all (at least you will be, if you did not
take down your target, or you did not see the other sentry).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:43:49 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox 

> From: AveNelso@aol.com
> 	Heck, I still can't get past Achilles and the Tortoise
> (Zeno's paradox that
> proves motion is impossible), so I just don't allow time travel, no more
> paradoxes please.

If I'm correct, the crux of the matter is that the infinite series of
1/(2^x) where x=1..infinity is some finite number. (Though I could be wrong,
I haven't done convergent series stuff since first year university about 9
years ago). I think the Greeks were unaware of the fact that some infinite
series sum up to a finite sum, seeing as they didn't have much algebra.

Zeno's paradox also assumes the infinite sub-dividablity (is that a word?)
of space - one could argue that at some point Achilles takes a step that's
smaller than the diameter of an electron, which isn't possible, so QED (or
whatever the math guys says when they prove something).

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:52:32 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Gauss weapons

At 22:49 10/02/1999 -0700, "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> wrote:
>Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the bestest!

I thought the problem with an X-ray laser was the ionisation trail
through an atmosphere.

The combination of persistance of vision and the ionisation
being greater near the barrel means that you get a large arrow
pointing at the sniper and saying:

	"It was him! He did it!"

Of course, I could be wrong.

Phil Kitching

- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:25:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

>Sorry, but the public key codes are based on factoring *large* numbers.
>Generating a key requires coming up with two *large* prime numbers. You
>also generate their product.
>
>You encrypt and decrypt by doing binary multiplication of your key and
>the text (converted into a *huge* binary number).
>
>So in effect you are multiplying 30 or 40 digit number (the key) by a
>several hundred digit number. And you decrypt by dividing the result by
>another 30 or 40 digit number.
>
>There are more details than this. But you get the idea. A cipher that
>requires several *weeks* to encrypt a message is not going to get used.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

As I don't particularly like guaranteed unbreakable codes IMTU as sometimes
canon (Trillion Credit Squadron mentions that a player capturing an enemy
vessel might learn their orders) and lots of high tech staple relies on the
assumption that codes can be broken by other means than brute force
numbercrunching: I hold (IMTU) that the terrans was far advanced in some
science areas but lacking in others, mostly mathematics. Terrans beat the
Vilani by having mesonguns, more warfare experience (some would say
bloodlust), the knowledge of biowarfare but the ramshackle empire failed in
part because of a Vilani math invention: the Vilani had knowledge on how to
take shortcuts when calculating primes; there are (supposedly IMTU) ways to
calculate primes MUCH (it has not been proven that there aren't better ways
to calculate primes than the brute force methods we use today, right?).
This gives the Vilani the ability to break just about any communication
codes but they didn't win the war by that as they didn't use public/private
key systems anyway. The problems for the Terrans started when the Terrans
learned how to break the codes; all kinds of hackers everywhere were
suddenly able to steal from banks, commandeer vehicles etc and the crypto
systems were pretty much everywhere with the Terrans so it was an
impoosible task to change and thus the long night.

All IMTU of course.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:23:35 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

From: Bruce Johnson
> Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
> for a dreadnaught?

S-3 command and control ? with all the back-up they could posibly need ;-)

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:45:01 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Timetravel paradoxes

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my game however I allow time-travel forwards in time and 
the possibility to "look" back in time. If you look forwards 
in time your vision will only be a potential one. The mechanics of 
time-travel forwards in time are not understood but some scientist/
philosophers have some crazy ideas that "just might work"... :) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Our characters can time-travel forwards in time right now. All we need
are a good low berth and a competent cryogenics specialist.

Or a ship that can travel a sizeable fraction of c...

Walt Smith
Time-travelling forward one instant at a time...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:29:37 -0600 (CST)
From: jhereg <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: [none]

> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:37:17 -0500
> From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
> Subject: Real Traveller
> >> <Hey, do what feels good.  It's GURPS, not real Traveller.  While
> >> you're at it, free the Border Worlds!>
> *sigh*
> >> I always thought it was the setting, not the rules, that made
Traveller
> >> what it is.  Furthermore, there are several variations of the
Traveller
> >> setting so if you make minor alterations to that you are still
playing
> >> "Real Traveller", IMO.
snip
> I
> prefer the GT setting anyway (although I did enjoy the TNE and T4
> settings..it's the rules I didn't care for).
> 
> It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market, it is
SETTINGS
> that sell games, not rules. Numerous examples exist of games with
arguably
> weak systems (Deadlands and Shadowrun being two examples)that are
popular
> because their settings are so compelling. Traveller will sell IF the
SETTING
> is emphasized; which rules system is used is IRRELEVANT.
> 
> Allen
	This is a point that is very applicable to Traveller.  My gaming
group places Shadowrun at the top of the list of games with good
mechanics.  We need a good set of mechanics for T5.  T4 didn't do it.
Gurps doesn't do it (for me.)

						Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> >Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted,
> >low oxygen content'.
> 
> Not in Traveller terms. A tainted thin to dense atmosphere is by definition
> breathable with nothing more than a filter mask. If you need supplementary
> oxygen tanks it's exotic.

Shrug.  A mask which does oxygen extraction is perfectly viable unless the
oxygen concentration is _very_ low.  In any case, 'low oxygen content' is a
standard taint (per world builder's handbook at least, probably others).  I
agree that a nitrogen-CO2 atmosphere would be considered 'exotic'.

> >Or has been terraformed.  Any world < size 5 (and some size 5) probably
> >_has_ to have been terraformed, it aren't massive enough to hold on to
> >water vapor over geologic time.  Size 3 and below can't even hold on to
> >oxygen or nitrogen.
> 
> It is my opinion that the Ancients should be used as sparingly as possible.
> Certainly not to explain scores of planets.

Actually, in this case I disagree, because you're explaning scores of planets
with only a _single_ action -- 'The early droyne terraformed many worlds in the
areas they passed through'.  Unlike many things to explain by reference to the
ancients, it isn't even an action which is all that nonsensical (for that
matter, you can also explain it by having them terraformed in more recent
history, or during the first or second imperium.  Terraforming is really only
TL 9-10).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:10:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)

Jimmy Simpson writes:
> >BtC is basically consistent with canonical maps of the Marches.  
> <snip>
> No, it isn't really.  You have one world that has been Imperial since the
> Spinward Marches was originally published, and now has never been Imperial
> in BTC (1727).  23 Naval and Scout bases have disappeared.  One world
> (0301) all of a sudden gained a 1000 fold increase in pop to become a High
> Pop world (capitalized on maps), and 5 worlds (0416, 0627, 1011, 1102,
> 3025) lost their High pop rating (no longer capitalized on the maps).
> X-boat routes have dissapeared (2326 - 2228 - 2231, and 2712 - 2510 -
> 2410).  Starports have changed without any reason (0607 went from an E(I)
> to a X(0), and 2735 went from a D(II) to a B(IV)).

This qualifies as 'basically consistent'.  Having 2% of the worlds change does
not qualify as radical change as far as I'm concerned....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:44:10 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Combat Support Element

Ian or Katts wrote:

>>Sure. now, looking at _Shattered Ships_ (I know it's not the best
>>source), the auxiliary ships seem to have one less jump number than the
>>equivalent TL Battleship. So, for a TL15 fleet, to arrive with J-1 fuel
>>left in the tankers ties your fleet to J-2. That's a whole lot of
>>operational-level mobility that you just gave up.
>
>You are arguing for incompetant naval procurement IMO.

Well, taking a current example, no Underway replenishment tankers can
keep up with the capital ships of a Wet Navy.

Anyway, it was taken from a canon source. YMMV.

>It isnt that hard to build jump-4 tankers and freighters at TL13, which
>will let them keep up with a jump-4 TL15 fleet.
>
>Now, having jump-4+1 tankers is going to reduce your payload substantially
>over jump-4 tankers, but this is why collapsible fuel tanks were invented.

?

If they are tankers (i.e. their cargo is fuel anyway), why do they need
collapsible fuel tanks?

>>Some other posters pointed out that the tankers could refuel themselves
>>and the other auxiliaries. How long does this take?
>
>Assuming no-one is shooting at you, about as long as normal refuelling, I
>guess.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:57:01 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <Paradin@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

Hello friends,

> > Not exactly true or false either.  Once you close the loop and are running
> > everything off of the capacitors you end up with zero gain except for gain
> > from outside the system like sunlight.  You have X in the capatitors.  You
> > use that X to power your systems and eventually it returns to the
> > capacitors.  Closed loop.  Total system power = total power.  Your time
> > 'under black globe' would be dependant on where you are in the system.  If
> > at the orbit of pluto you could be there for centuries before the boom if
> > you have the capacitors of a J6 drive plus your weapons capacitors.

Maybe some people won't like me for this.
There is that damnd second law of thermodynamics, the one about entropy, which
_cannot_ decrease, a fundamental of modern physics.

Some of it's consequences are efficiencies (differences between input energies and
discharge energies, for example) or the impossibility of a 'perpetuum mobile'.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:03:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

>You did it in that ship?  You're braver than I thought!
>
>Damien Fox


...who doesn't look anywhere near as good as Princess Leia, even with her
Cinammon Bun hairdo.  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:06:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

But a parsec is not a unit of time...  (maybe you were acknowledging that,
but your last sentence has me fuzzy as to whether you realize this movie
line is supposed to be a blooper...)

My Astronomy text-book a couple of years back actually quoted this movie
line in a footnote as a blooper.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.


>At 08:56 PM 10/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
>>
>
>        A friend of mine, who is an avid reader of the books, tells me
this:
>The reference is to *how* Hyperspace travel is managed.  The issue is
>picking the tighest trajectory while screaming across the cosmos without
>"bouncing too close to a super nova", et al.  The Falcon has *military*
>quality computers which have been tweaked all to hell...  it was able to
>grind the course distance required for the Kessel run, including object
>avoidance, to a mere 3 parsecs....  almost the actual distance.  The
closest
>anyone else ever came was *5*.  Which meant the Falcon was covering the
same
>distance in *much* less time.
>
>        --Michel
>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
> Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:04:30 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

At 03:41 PM 2/10/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>ps. I doubt the deposit would be big enough for more than a *very* few
>ships, unless you *really* want to screw up the universe. Besides, it's
>more fun if the players *can't* just give some jumpium to <whoever> to
>make them quit trying to grab their ship. :-)
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Really GREAT post.  Saving this.  Many adventure ideas.

My original idea was a very small ore sample (or purified ingot) recovered
from a passenger's belongings after he fails to return to the ship.  (He had
some of his reasearch with him which the bad guys got and are now looking
for more and the sample.)  How much would a troy ounce volume of gold weigh
if that volume were filled with an ingot of atomic weight 500 matter?  Is it
a direct ratio?  If the element has 50 times the atomic weight it weighs 50
times as much for the same volume of metal?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:04:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

At 07:33 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:09 pm 2/10/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>First, several other people have said the the photonic model is not
>the best
>>way to model radar.  
>
>But when you're talking about phase cancelling you *have* to be using
>a wave model ... which is where part of the original thread started.
>And I suspect when you start talking about things like doppler
>effects, phase distortion, delay lines, and various advanced ECM
>effects you'll have to use both.
>

Wave models yes, photonic models, no.  All of the above are covered in
standard RF formulations.

>>Second, today's electronics work at very high speeds.	
>>I am not talking about digital.  I mean analog.  A radio intercepts
>and
>>processes radio waves in real time.  Responce time is much less than
>.5
>>wavelength in the radio/radar band, which is all that is required
>for phaze
>>canceling.  Light on the otherland is not a doable with today
>technology 
>
>	I've got some doubts about the half wavelength thing there ... since
>the current flow in the electronic circuit is *less* than lightspeed,
>for the delay from input to output to be that short, the *entire*
>process including power etc. would have to occur in less than
>half-wavelength's work of circuitry--at millimeter wave radar you're
>talking quite short stuff. Yeah, I know IC's are small and getting
>smaller, but I suspect it's a fairly complex circuit, especially if
>it's putting out useful amounts of RF.
>

Bad assumtion.  Only the critical path matters.  Power and other
support/control lines are static and of no consiquence.  Also, millimeter
radar is targeting radar not search but lets look at that.  The path lenght
has to let the system react before it is detected by the oposing ships
sensors.  1 wavelength bounce back is NOT a detection (to many falses if the
front in can lock up that fast).  You could cancel with any 180 degree
multiple.  180, 540, 720, 900 ect.  Also in 3000 years there should be
superconducters able to match or out perform partial vacume (not the fastest
medium).

>	And I also suspect that half a wavelength of return signal (before
>it gets phase-cancelled) would still set off sensors, especially if
>this technology were to be developed. "Gee Cap'n, I got a partial
>blip and then it just disappeared! Aw, shucks, system must be on the
>fritz ..." might happen the first few times this device were used,
>but the bright guys in ECCM would soon figure it out.
>

Nice to able to assume that there is nothing out there to cause false
positives.  Sorry that it not real world.  

>	Now throw in a "hopping" radar, changing frequencies according to
>some pseudorandom sequence. If the sensor computer gets a
>half-wavelength return each time it hops, that oughta set bells
>ringing.
>

I think you mean a 'frequency agile' radar.

True, but that type gear has its' own problems with range and the design of
the front end.  Also each part of the radars 'agile' band would be canceled
by a different bank of circuits set to that part of the band.  Wit h
adaptive circuits the target would 'signature' the radar quickly and be able
to predict and match the shift quicker become more stealthy.  Two different
but linked cooperative systems would help.  Dopolar has a better potential
here for detecting a moving object with fewer false positives and greater
range.  There are also other, non radar methods, that would be less likely
to produce false positives.  Bruce discussed them some time ago.  I would
tend to use them and drop the radar.  Much more efficient.  It all comes
down to $s.  Who is willing to spend how much to do what.  How many systems
will spend 1Tcr on system monitoring systems?  How many people will build
purpose built bleeding edge spy ships?

>to
>>the extent that invisibility is posible.  If light, IR, could be
>canceled
>>macroscopically then airconditioning would need near 0 power and
>cost nearly
>>nothing.
>
>	Heat isn't IR--IR is one method of transferring heat. Heat is random
>kinetic energy of molecules. And 
>

True, in air.  In space it is mostly IR.  That is one of the problems with
heat disipation in space.

>>True, (I took part in that 'doing to death') the other part of this
>post
>>delt with a limited black globe effect.  That was what I was
>refering to.  A
>>device that absorbed only part of the spectrum to allow ships to
>appear cool
>>while using the absorbed energy to power its' systems without
>needing to use
>
>	Sounds like a magical heat engine to me. Or Maxwell's Demon. 
>

Or a black globe.  A connon device.  They absorb all energy.  I was
supposing a tuned one for heat convertion to useful energy.  Seems a
reasonable posibility.

>>Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the center
>of a 2
>>mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach 290K in any
>reasonable
>>time?  You are leaving out surface area and thermal mass.  The heat
>from a 4
>>man outpost will never heat 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and
>silicon to
>>290k.  If that were true the entire earth would have the same
>temperture 
>
>	No, I was discussing the implied "nominal" case of normal
>spacecraft, which I understand to be something like what your average
>PC will encounter. Say, something out of Supplement 7, Traders and
>Gunboats. We can certainly discuss special cases if they're specified
>so we all know what we're discussing, but the general case has more
>applicability.
>

Good point, but are spy ships going to be 'normal' ships?  Spying with a far
trader does not sound to bright unless you are actually trading while you
are monitoring system trafic.  A perfectly reasonable way to spy by the way.
An the customs people can't say but so much if a ships has really good
commo. and nav. gear.

>BTW, after I sent last night's email I started thinking I might have
>been a bit "snippish" or condescending. I have a tendency to be very
>short in my replies, with an occasional dash of sarcasm thrown in,
>which has gotten me in trouble. There was certainly no intent to be
>rude or offensive, and I hope I didn't come across that way.

Same here.  I have evolved kevelar skin.  I like intelectual exchanges.  As
long as it is ideas and not name calling we are exchanging I will not take
offence.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #123
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 124



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Gauss weapons  
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Gauss weapons
Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Gauss weapons
Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Gauss weapons  
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:04:54 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

>Oh yeah, "invisibility" requires being effectively *transparent* to the
>radiation. It hasn't been achieved even with radar. What radar stealth
>has managed is near 100% non-reflectivity. In space, there's little
>difference. Even at radar wavelengths it can be a critical difference.
>For example, a good "look down" radar would notice that there's an area
>where it *isn't* getting a ground return. And the smaller the
>wavelength, the more noticeable this sort of thing is.
>

All true, but tough to do in space.  I did mention 'reference object' with
that in mind.  If an object 'behind' the canceling ship is also invisable
then you sensor tech. hits the big red button.

>> Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the center of a 2
>> mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach 290K in any reasonable
>> time?  You are leaving out surface area and thermal mass.  The heat from a 4
>> man outpost will never heat 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and silicon to
>> 290k.  If that were true the entire earth would have the same temperture as
>> the core and we'd be very dead.
>
>True, you *can* hide things that way. In fact, a sufficiently large
>"balloon" will get your emmissions per sq. meter down to something
>non-suspicious. 
>

Had not thought of that.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:04:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

>> Why would you search in the above frequency ranges?  These are in the
>> uplink/downlink bands.  You are looking at a lot of interferience.  You also
>> have very limited range and a narrow search field.  These are more like
>> short range targeting radars not spherical search radar.  Your power
>> requirements is going to be huge!
>
>I think he's talking about the *bandwidth*, more than the frequency.
>Also, just because *we* use the gigahertz bands for uplinks doesn't
>mean that the Imperium does. 
>

I expected that.  What I ment was why would you use these bands.  They are
not very efficent for a global search.  The propoerties of that part of the
spectrum are not going to change.  They are not good long range radar bands.

>>>>Also with a black globe you do not radiate.  I also wind it funny that in
>>>>traveller something like the black globe is posible but a simpler system
>>>>that just works of IR is not discussed.  Seems to me the black glode could
>>>>be 'cut down' in size and price to handle the heat problem nicely.  Perhaps
>>>>that IS why the fussion power plants are so effiecent.
>>>
>>>A ship running minimal life support and a 100% black globe will explode
>>>once its capacitors are full.
>>
>> Not exactly true or false either.  Once you close the loop and are running
>> everything off of the capacitors you end up with zero gain except for gain
>> from outside the system like sunlight.  You have X in the capatitors.  You
>> use that X to power your systems and eventually it returns to the
>> capacitors.  Closed loop.  Total system power = total power.  Your time
>> 'under black globe' would be dependant on where you are in the system.  If
>> at the orbit of pluto you could be there for centuries before the boom if
>> you have the capacitors of a J6 drive plus your weapons capacitors.
>
>Don't forget that you have sources of heat that are *not* part of the
>ship's power systems. For example, every person on board is producing
>heat at 100 or more watts. And the sunlight at 1 AU from a G type star
>is around a kilowatt per square meter. Figure the maximum dimension of
>the ship, add a bit, then figure that the cross sectional area of the
>globe is that of a circle that many meters in diameter. 
>
>For example, a ship 50 meters long with a crew of 30 is going to be
>dealing with:
>
>People: 30 * 100 = 3 kW
>sunlight: (50/2)^2 * pi ~= 1963  call it 2 MW
>
>So you are getting extra energy at the rate of 2003 kiloJoules/sec. Or
>~120 MJ/min, or 7.21 GJ/hr, or 173 GJ/day, or 1.21 TJ/week. 
>
>You'll go "boom" soon enough. 
>


That's why I said the orbit of pluto.  Near 0 solar gain.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:51:58 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons  

Damien Fox wrote:

<snip>
>  As for MAD signature, you are correct, and trust me, that intense a
>spike of local magnetic activity would show up on present-day sensors.
>By definition, the gauss weapon is using an intense magnetic field to
>accelerate a projectile.  Since in most enviroments, ie no ferrous
rocks
>intervening, you can detect this anaomoly THROUGH the terrain, firing
>a gauss weapon will quickly and unerringly pont out your position.  I
>freely admit however, I have no idea if this effect could be easily
>shielded or not.  All this aside, the gauss rifle would still be more
useful >than a CPR.

Large sources of ferrous materials will not effectively shield the gauss
weapon although it may reduce the detection range.  MAD equipment
detects changes in the planetary magnetic field, thus the only way to
mask an electromagnetic source would be to enclose it in an equal and
oppisite magnetic field.  This would reduce the effectivness of the
weapon, increase the weight, and increase the power requirements.
Currently MAD equipment is rare in usage but will be more common after
gauss weapons become common.  Also each shot will produce a single pulse
of radio (as the magnetic field changes) but this will be hard to detect
and home in on (frequency is dependent on barrel length and muzzle
velocity).

>Even the supersonic rounds aren't that easy to detect.  If you have ever
>been in the butts, you will no what I mean.  The crack of the bullet would
>be loud, but by itself would give no real indication of where it was
>coming from to the individual troop.

The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real time
(predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as a
fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
Discovery Channel)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

Holger Kadlez writes:

> Maybe some people won't like me for this.
> There is that damnd second law of thermodynamics, the one about entropy,
> which _cannot_ decrease, a fundamental of modern physics.
> 
> Some of it's consequences are efficiencies (differences between input
> energies and discharge energies, for example) or the impossibility of a
> 'perpetuum mobile'. 

Black globe generators, _as described in traveller_, violate the second law of
thermodynamics.  As such, either their description should be changed (in which
case a black globe would probably be a perfect blackbody, and would have an IR
signature), or you have to accept violations of thermodynamics.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:07:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Attention Bruse: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

Holger Kadlez writes:

> Maybe some people won't like me for this.
> There is that damnd second law of thermodynamics, the one about entropy,
> which _cannot_ decrease, a fundamental of modern physics.
> 
> Some of it's consequences are efficiencies (differences between input
> energies and discharge energies, for example) or the impossibility of a
> 'perpetuum mobile'. 

Black globe generators, _as described in traveller_, violate the second law of
thermodynamics.  As such, either their description should be changed (in which
case a black globe would probably be a perfect blackbody, and would have an IR
signature), or you have to accept violations of thermodynamics.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:17:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse


>Should be available at your local gaming store, or you can order directly
>from SJG at www.sjgames.com
>
>Jesse
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:27:23 +0100
From: Holger Kadlez <Paradin@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Patrik Holmstrm schrieb:

> of the second. This could, as someone pointed out earlier, be used with
> c to define a universal length (to tedious IMHO to use in a game).

This was already done. The meter *is* defined as the distance light
travelles in
1 / 299 792 458 s (in vacuum)

Holger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:28:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: Damien Fox <phocks@goodnet.com>
To: Traveller <traveller-digest@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:08 PM
Subject: Gauss weapons


>I was just looking at the Vision-Forge site.  Outstanding!  I did see
>something that aroused my curiosity.  This was the Gauss weapons, and I
have
>a question.  The description notes that they can be set to "subsonic
>velocity" which makes them effectively silent.  Now, I assume that either
>the ammo is differentiated for sub or hyper sonic mode, because the flight
>characteristics are going to be markedly different, or there is a great
>decline in effectiveness for the super-sonic rounds.  This would be because
>good hypersonic shapes tend to be innefficient sub-sonic shapes and
>vice-versa.

From what I understand, in "slug throwers", all you need to do to make
supersonic rounds subsonic is decrease the powder load in the casing.  Many
pistol rounds aren't exactly aerodynamic, anyway.  A round that tumbles is
actually a good thing when it hits flesh.

There is one round I know of where it is made up of flat discs that come
apart in flight and make a nice tight group when they hit the target.  The
flat discs aren't aerodynamic, but they COULD be subsonic.

> You need special shapes for the  silent effect.  Also, it
>doesn't say, but a 4mm sub-sonic projectile is going to be pretty worthless
>against military armor- well, except on full auto.

Wouldn't it be just as worthless (if indeed, it WAS worthless) on full auto?
Rounds don't usually hit the same point of body armour, no matter how many
you spit out.  This is why the most protective body armours we have now are
made up of ceramic geometric shapes with underlying kevlar.  Chances are
very low that two rounds will hit in the same area of one of the ceramic
shapes.  (The ceramic shatters when hit, opening up a vulnerable spot for a
second round, were it to hit in that same spot.)

>  Does anyone have any
>comments about this?  Note that the silent rounds would still be very
useful
>for sniping.
>
- --Clif

P.S.:  Gauss doesn't use rifling, does it?  If so, would a slower
feet/second speed make the trajectory more unstable after leaving a barrel
rifled for a higher velocity projectile?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:33:19 -0500 (EST)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:52:32 +0000
>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Fw: Gauss weapons

>At 22:49 10/02/1999 -0700, "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> wrote:
>>Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the bestest!

>I thought the problem with an X-ray laser was the ionisation trail
>through an atmosphere.

>The combination of persistance of vision and the ionisation
>being greater near the barrel means that you get a large arrow
>pointing at the sniper and saying:

>        "It was him! He did it!"

>Of course, I could be wrong.

>Phil Kitching

Someone a while back did what could quite possibly be the ultimate
terror/sniper weapon.
The MESON Sniper Rifle!

I think this was a TNE gadget made with FF&S.  Basicaly a weapon that did
not interact with any matter it went through, only where it was intened to
detonate (ergo, no ion trail).  The damage was only 1 point, but that one
point was enough to damage internal organs or the brain of the target,
causing instant death.  The target has an apparent heart attack or brain
hemorage. NASTY!

Unfortuneately, G:T has forbade these wondrous toys.  Can't see why they'd
do a thing like that. ;->


\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:33:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Two of my
>favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
>sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
>switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
>tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
>site.
>
>Best,
>Jesse DeGraff

What do you suppose the recoil on a gauss rifle might be?  Comparable to
slug throwers?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:38:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

>Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the
>bestest!
>
X-Ray Laser?  Can you use that to shoot off a woman's undies without blowing
off her dress?

- --Clif


Will a pair of X-ray Specs from the Johnson Smith catalog be able to see
down the barrel of a firing X-ray Laser?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:38:52 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Actually, quoting from the back of the G:T book (have it in my briefcase
here at work and writing from my home e-mail on my laptop at work :)

***Begin Quote***
"GURPS Basic Set, Compendium I:  Character Creation", and "GURPS Space" are
required to use this book in a GURPS campaign.  "Ultra-Tech" and "Ultra-Tech
2" will be useful.  As a sourcebook, "GURPS Traveller" can be used in any SF
campaign.
***End Quote***

That pretty much sums it up.  I have all of the current G:T books (less Star
Mercs) but I don't play G:T.  I purchased the G:T books and will continue to
do so for the ABSOLUTE WEALTH of collected and new background material.  Of
course, I'll have an ulterior motive to purchase the future books that have
my artwork in it :)

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:19 AM
Subject: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?


>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?
>
>--Clif
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
>
>
>>Should be available at your local gaming store, or you can order directly
>>from SJG at www.sjgames.com
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:51:59 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

>I'll be the first to admit that even though I put an average of about 6,000
>rounds per year through my HK USP and AR-15 Match, I don't know much about
>how the projectile's shape affects hypersonic flight and it's effectiveness.
>Is there a canon reference to the magazines being loud?

My kinda gun afficionado!  When I was in the Army I had a AR-15A2 Delta
HBAR.  If I had been old enough to buy a pistol, it would have been a H&K P7
or a H&K VP70Z, which had a pretty sinister and futuristic look.

>I've not seen one.
>
>>Remember, Gauss weapons have recoil and EM signature!  A 20mm would show up
>>real easy on a MAD- probably even better than a CPR slugthrower would on IR.
>>While the constant accelleration of the gauss projectile very slightly
>>lessens the recoil, the higher velocity still makes this a bipod-fired
>>weapon for most users.  Finally, for a sniper weapon, an x-ray laser is the
>>bestest!
>
>
>I guess I don't understand how a frictionless barrel with no chemical
>propellant causes recoil.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The rifle has to
have something to push against, in this case your shoulder, to make the
round go down the barrel.  Otherwise, if the rifle was sitting in Zero G and
was remotely made to discharge, the round wouldn't come out of the barrel as
fast and the rifle would actually go flying linearly across the room,
probably tumbling because of lack of balance, too.  The mass and drag
coefficient of the rifle is greater than the round, so it will travel slower
than the round, but one item will go one way and the other will go the
opposite.

Another example might be holding a 12 guage shotgun very lightly in your
hands and having a hair trigger on it.  Make sure your hip or shoulder isn't
in the way.  Press the trigger and the gun will fly out of your hands.

The shell will still discharge its load, but not with the same force as it
would had you held it firmly against your shoulder.  Of course, when you are
talking about the speeds at which weapons spit out projectiles, the
reduction caused by wimply handling won't help much if you're standing in
front of the barrel when it goes off.

Shooting a 12 guage as it is braced against a brick wall would be optimum if
you could aim it accurately...


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:53:30 +0100
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

Well, according to IGN it is anway:

http://pc.ign.com/news/6857.html

Looks interesting, especially the bits about the chief programmer of
Daggerfall being involved (and a 'huge Traveller fan'), I rather liked
Daggerfall. (Old 3d tech, *way* too large, but strangely compelling.)

Or, to go straight to the source:

http://www.fenriswolf.com/trav2.html

They do indeed say that they have the rights, but nothing else really. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:04:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Andrew Akins wrote:
> 
> I'm in the process of designing an alien race.
> 
> Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking how
> I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
> reasons _why_.
> 
> This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
> What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
> BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
> 
> An exoskeleton with "shielding" in it? This might work, but physical
> injuries could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...
> 
> Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
> radiation?...

If the radiation source is endemic, coming from the planet itself, then
off the top of my head, I would posit a hell of a free radical
scavenging system. 

Much of the damage from ionizing radiation comes from the production of
free radicals. This critter will have Vitamin C, E and A requirements
that make Linus Pauling look like he was dabbling with minor changes in
intake.

The organism will have a far more robust genetic encoding system...for
instance DNA with 6 strands and some sort of 'tell me three times' error
correction system. A Much faster rate of genetic repair.

There will also be a faster rate of enzyme degradataion, and a
correspondingly higher rate of protein synthesis.

Along with those two comes a higher metabolic rate in general. This
implies a shorter lifespan, greater energy requirements, and given the
hostility of the environment, a high reproductive rate.

This would be for a free ranging organism without significant
environmental shielding from the radiation sources.

OTOH, if the source of radiation is extra-terrestrial (a very active
sun, ongoing radiation from a nearby astronomical source, etc) then
you'll get much of the opposite effect. The organsims will move from
shelter as little as possible, implying a very low metabolic rate.
Perhaps a very diurnal or distinct migratory patterns. They'll move into
natural shelters and stay there...cracjks in the ground, deep oceans,
etc.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:10:19 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons  

Cool!  I guess you'd get a female voice yelling "hit the deck!" if the
bullet is bound to hit you.

- --Clif

I added this to augmented battle dress for missiles and hand grenades, but
never thought about bullets, themselves.
>
>The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real time
>(predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
>target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as a
>fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
>requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
>Discovery Channel)
>
>Charles
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:13:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

Do they exist in canonical Traveller?  Should they exist?  All you would
need is a way to see through obstacles, correct?  (Reminds me of the optics
on that Arnold Swarzenegger movie, "Eraser" was it?)

What kind of rifle was that in that movie?

- --Clif

>Unfortuneately, G:T has forbade these wondrous toys.  Can't see why they'd
>do a thing like that. ;->
>
>
>\\  // Commander X
> \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
>T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
> //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
>//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:16:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

>Of
>course, I'll have an ulterior motive to purchase the future books that have
>my artwork in it :)
>
>Jesse
>
Yeah, you could sell copies autographed!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:25:36 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

	Hi, Cliff...  You are right, I was fuzzy...  Hyperspace travel is
a *fixed* speed...  the only way to have a "faster" ship is to have a more
efficient  course that the other guy...  So if the real distance to Kessel
is 2.5 parsecs, everyone else's computers can only resolve the safe course
down to 5, and the Falcon gets it down to "less than 3", the Falcon gets
there first.

	--Michel

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:

> But a parsec is not a unit of time...  (maybe you were acknowledging that,
> but your last sentence has me fuzzy as to whether you realize this movie
> line is supposed to be a blooper...)
> 
> My Astronomy text-book a couple of years back actually quoted this movie
> line in a footnote as a blooper.
> 
> --Clif
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
> 
> 
> >At 08:56 PM 10/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >>I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...
> >>
> >>--Clif
> >>
> >>> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
> >>
> >
> >        A friend of mine, who is an avid reader of the books, tells me
> this:
> >The reference is to *how* Hyperspace travel is managed.  The issue is
> >picking the tighest trajectory while screaming across the cosmos without
> >"bouncing too close to a super nova", et al.  The Falcon has *military*
> >quality computers which have been tweaked all to hell...  it was able to
> >grind the course distance required for the Kessel run, including object
> >avoidance, to a mere 3 parsecs....  almost the actual distance.  The
> closest
> >anyone else ever came was *5*.  Which meant the Falcon was covering the
> same
> >distance in *much* less time.
> >
> >        --Michel
> >
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> > Michel R. Vaillancourt
> > misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
> >
> > Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
> > Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> > "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> > Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> > Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> >
> >
> 

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:01:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>You pretty much hit the dues right on the head.  Beer is good food!  And
>pizza has all of your major food groups.  This pretty much makes the
>combination unbeatable.

Taken from Q&A in NEW SCIENTIST magazine:

Q. I have heard that it is possible to live on Guinness and milk alone.
   Is this true, or even partially true?

A. This is not quite true. Guinness does contain many  vitamins and
 minerals in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C, as well as
 calcium and fat.

 So, to fulfil all of your daily nutritional requirements you would need
 to drink a glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints of
 Guinness.


Dom ;-)


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #124
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 125



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gauss weapons
re: Phoenix Legacy by Wren
game mechanics
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Fw: Traveller-digest V1999 #120
Re: Time Travel
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
Re: Vision Forge / Jesse
Re: Gauss weapons
ordering AAB
Re: Planet-building advice needed.
EMP Cannon
Re: GT Worldbuilding

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:11:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

"Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net> wrote:

>THere is also  a BIG HONKING Guass sniper rifle.  It punches big holes at
>long ranges.

I know of a 13D (T4 FFS2) rated one planned for a 101 book ;-)

Made by FS....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:23:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Phoenix Legacy by Wren

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> wrote:

>I'm hoping the denizens of the TML can help me with a world I'm developing.
> It is based on M.K. Wren's Phoenix Legacy Trilogy (Sword of the Lamb,
>Shadow of the Swan, and House of the Wolf).

A cracking set of books; sadly I don't have a copy anymore. Haven't read
them for a few years, but I loveed the claustrophobic feel....

>My questions are simple:  What would the Tech Level be for the Solar System
>and Castor and Pollux?

Hmm. I'd put them at no more than 12. 10 sounds better though.

>What is the Government Type for these worlds?

>My thoughts on tech level would be at most high 9 or low 10.  As to the
>government type, I was thinking of either a Fuedal Technocracy or perhaps a
>Charasmatic Oligarchy.

Fuedal Technocracy (and I'm not trolling). The noble class are owed fealty
effectively, and are megacorps/small nations in their own right. Each
controls access to its own product base...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:25:52 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: game mechanics

jhereg wrote:
>
>> It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market,
>> it is SETTINGS that sell games, not rules. Numerous examples
>> exist of games with arguably weak systems (Deadlands and
>> Shadowrun being two examples)that are popular because their
>> settings are so compelling. Traveller will sell IF the
>> SETTING is emphasized; which rules system is used is
>> IRRELEVANT.
> 
> This is a point that is very applicable to Traveller.  My
> gaming group places Shadowrun at the top of the list of games
> with good mechanics.  We need a good set of mechanics for T5.
> T4 didn't do it.  Gurps doesn't do it (for me.)

I agree, time to switch over to Ral Talsorian's Mekton Zeta
Plus...  Interlock (Cyberpunk) gaming system, scaleable unified
gadget construction, blue hair, and more.  D10 + attribute + 
skill vs target number.  Simple, is it not?

Before you run to the hills screaming, "Aieee anime!"  MZ+ has
no problem working with hard sci-fi, too.  [My Shadow Command
campaign is set in 2004 and is very 'down to earth'.]

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:32:45 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:
> 
> P.S.:  Gauss doesn't use rifling, does it?  If so, would a slower
> feet/second speed make the trajectory more unstable after leaving a barrel
> rifled for a higher velocity projectile?
> 

	"Rifle"-like spin is imparted by puttinb a bias on the magnetic
field of the barrel...  the FCS would just adjust the degree of bias to
compensate for the velocity difference

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:34:37 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:

> 
> Two of my
> >favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
> >sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
> >switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
> >tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
> >site.
> >
> >Best,
> >Jesse DeGraff
> 
> What do you suppose the recoil on a gauss rifle might be?  Comparable to
> slug throwers?
> 
> --Clif
> 
	Gyro-stablize it and who cares? =)

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:25:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Clif writes:
> QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
> you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?
> 
> --Clif

In theory, you can do it with GT and gurps lite (available on SJgames website,
I don't recall where).  In practice, other books would be good; Basic, and
probably either Space or compendium II (for effects of alien environments), and
a variety of other books could be handy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:32:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Ahh, so you're saying that the other ships take a zig-zag course?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.


>
> Hi, Cliff...  You are right, I was fuzzy...  Hyperspace travel is
>a *fixed* speed...  the only way to have a "faster" ship is to have a more
>efficient  course that the other guy...  So if the real distance to Kessel
>is 2.5 parsecs, everyone else's computers can only resolve the safe course
>down to 5, and the Falcon gets it down to "less than 3", the Falcon gets
>there first.
>
> --Michel
>
>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:
>
>> But a parsec is not a unit of time...  (maybe you were acknowledging
that,
>> but your last sentence has me fuzzy as to whether you realize this movie
>> line is supposed to be a blooper...)
>>
>> My Astronomy text-book a couple of years back actually quoted this movie
>> line in a footnote as a blooper.
>>
>> --Clif
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
>>
>>
>> >At 08:56 PM 10/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...
>> >>
>> >>--Clif
>> >>
>> >>> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
>> >>
>> >
>> >        A friend of mine, who is an avid reader of the books, tells me
>> this:
>> >The reference is to *how* Hyperspace travel is managed.  The issue is
>> >picking the tighest trajectory while screaming across the cosmos without
>> >"bouncing too close to a super nova", et al.  The Falcon has *military*
>> >quality computers which have been tweaked all to hell...  it was able to
>> >grind the course distance required for the Kessel run, including object
>> >avoidance, to a mere 3 parsecs....  almost the actual distance.  The
>> closest
>> >anyone else ever came was *5*.  Which meant the Falcon was covering the
>> same
>> >distance in *much* less time.
>> >
>> >        --Michel
>> >
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> > Michel R. Vaillancourt
>> > misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>> >
>> > Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
>> > Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
>> > "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> > Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
>> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
>> > Into Traveller?  Check Out:
>> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> >
>> >
>>
>
> --Michel
>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:33:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

You know what?  It sounds like Star Wars apologetics, to me...  I wonder if
this was the explanation from the very beginning.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.


>
> Hi, Cliff...  You are right, I was fuzzy...  Hyperspace travel is
>a *fixed* speed...  the only way to have a "faster" ship is to have a more
>efficient  course that the other guy...  So if the real distance to Kessel
>is 2.5 parsecs, everyone else's computers can only resolve the safe course
>down to 5, and the Falcon gets it down to "less than 3", the Falcon gets
>there first.
>
> --Michel
>
>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:
>
>> But a parsec is not a unit of time...  (maybe you were acknowledging
that,
>> but your last sentence has me fuzzy as to whether you realize this movie
>> line is supposed to be a blooper...)
>>
>> My Astronomy text-book a couple of years back actually quoted this movie
>> line in a footnote as a blooper.
>>
>> --Clif
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
>>
>>
>> >At 08:56 PM 10/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>I wish I knew the REAL story behind that supposed screw-up...
>> >>
>> >>--Clif
>> >>
>> >>> Hah! I did it in less than three parsecs!  (Whoops ...)
>> >>
>> >
>> >        A friend of mine, who is an avid reader of the books, tells me
>> this:
>> >The reference is to *how* Hyperspace travel is managed.  The issue is
>> >picking the tighest trajectory while screaming across the cosmos without
>> >"bouncing too close to a super nova", et al.  The Falcon has *military*
>> >quality computers which have been tweaked all to hell...  it was able to
>> >grind the course distance required for the Kessel run, including object
>> >avoidance, to a mere 3 parsecs....  almost the actual distance.  The
>> closest
>> >anyone else ever came was *5*.  Which meant the Falcon was covering the
>> same
>> >distance in *much* less time.
>> >
>> >        --Michel
>> >
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> > Michel R. Vaillancourt
>> > misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>> >
>> > Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
>> > Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
>> > "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> > Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
>> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
>> > Into Traveller?  Check Out:
>> > "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
>> > -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>> >
>> >
>>
>
> --Michel
>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:25:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Clif writes:
> QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
> you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?
> 
> --Clif

In theory, you can do it with GT and gurps lite (available on SJgames website,
I don't recall where).  In practice, other books would be good; Basic, and
probably either Space or compendium II (for effects of alien environments), and
a variety of other books could be handy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:39:59 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:

> QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
> you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

You need a copy of the GURPS rules to play.  There is a "lite" version
available at www.sjgames.com that should cover most of what you need.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

  "Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
 we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
                        for our fire control system"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:06:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: Traveller-digest V1999 #120

In mail you write:

> Well,  40rounds/sec looks good, until you realize your mag only holds 2-3
> bursts.  I'll set mine to 5 round bursts, thanks, and at 2000/sec, you're
> using expensive alloys, as steel will be glowing enough to provide tracer
> effects in dim light.  Also, putting that many joules throught he barrel
> will presumably turn your rifle to plasma in short order.  Remember entropy-
> a certain, probably large, percentage of the current you use for the
> magentics will inevitably escape as heat, and the canon gauss weapon can't
> use cartridge cases to "sink" it, and the closer to frictionless the barrel
> is, the less is transferred to the projectile.  I would think that
> velocities of <1000m/s would be far more useful.   But dual magazines would
> be neato.

You just discovered why I believe that any *practical* man portable
guass weapon will be a "rail gun" using *permanent* magnets, and most
of the heat will be from the current in the rails and across the
"slug". 

The best part is that there's no switching of power between coils and
all that. Current starts to flow as the needle drops into place (and
shorts between the rails) and stops as the needle clears the rails. 
The safety kills the current to the rails. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:11:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time Travel

In mail you write:

>>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:08:02 PST
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: Time Travel
> ...
>>Try to use a time machine to shoot the inventor and your gun *will*
>>jam. If you persist, you may get struck by lighning. Or worse...
>
>   What? A farm-house will land on you?

No, just a stray meteor. Or you'll have a stroke. Or all the air in the
room will "randomly" move away from you. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:48:20 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

It's also reminciant (sp?) of the episode of DS9 that I saw last night about
the murders on the station.  I'll say no more so I don't spoil it for those
that haven't seen it.  Very cool.

The way they described it in "Eraser", it sounded like a cross between a
primitive gauss rifle and an EMP cannon.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)


>Do they exist in canonical Traveller?  Should they exist?  All you would
>need is a way to see through obstacles, correct?  (Reminds me of the optics
>on that Arnold Swarzenegger movie, "Eraser" was it?)
>
>What kind of rifle was that in that movie?
>
>--Clif
>
>>Unfortuneately, G:T has forbade these wondrous toys.  Can't see why they'd
>>do a thing like that. ;->
>>
>>
>>\\  // Commander X
>> \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
>>T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
>> //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
>>//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:50:36 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Vision Forge / Jesse

PERFECT!!!

Actually, how about 47 pints of guiness and a couple of tablets of
multi-vitamins.  Throw in some potatoe chips and you're all set!

Jesse



>"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>
>>You pretty much hit the dues right on the head.  Beer is good food!  And
>>pizza has all of your major food groups.  This pretty much makes the
>>combination unbeatable.
>
>Taken from Q&A in NEW SCIENTIST magazine:
>
>Q. I have heard that it is possible to live on Guinness and milk alone.
>   Is this true, or even partially true?
>
>A. This is not quite true. Guinness does contain many  vitamins and
> minerals in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C, as well as
> calcium and fat.
>
> So, to fulfil all of your daily nutritional requirements you would need
> to drink a glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints of
> Guinness.
>
>
>Dom ;-)
>
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:52:19 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

BINGO!  They can do it for Plasma weapons and FGMP's, why not for a Honkin'
Big Gauss Rifle?

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Clif wrote:
>
>>
>> Two of my
>> >favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
>> >sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
>> >switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
>> >tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
>> >site.
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >Jesse DeGraff
>>
>> What do you suppose the recoil on a gauss rifle might be?  Comparable to
>> slug throwers?
>>
>> --Clif
>>
> Gyro-stablize it and who cares? =)
>
> --Michel
>
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Michel R. Vaillancourt
> misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>
> Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
> "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
> Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
> Into Traveller?  Check Out:
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
> -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:43:17 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: ordering AAB

	To subscribe to AAB send an email to ClayRbush@aol.com for the specific
details (address to send the money to).

	AAB is the longest running Traveller fanzine/newsletter still being printed.
Current cost for U.S. members is $12 for 6 issues or one year (depending on
which come first). Foriegn costs are currently $18. The cost also makes you a
member of HIWG currently.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:47:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planet-building advice needed.

At 08:22 PM 2/10/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:

>> Ah.  The dayside maximum is 212.4, the nightside minimum is 49.  The high
>> atmospheric pressure retains heat fairly well, I suppose.
>
>Huh? How do you get a average temp of 65.7 from a max of 212.4 and a
>min of 49?

The 65.7 figure is the average temp at the 4th hex row on the standard map.
 The 212.4 is high noon at the equator, and 49 is the lowest temp at the
poles.  These were calculated from WBH.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:03:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: EMP Cannon

What's an EMP Cannon?

Explain the whole concept for me, please.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:00:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

> >Following the thread it seems that GT ends up with much different
> >worlds...I haven't gotten BtC yet...but is it radically different from
> >the GDW supplement on the Marches?
> 
> Which GDW supplement on the Marches?
<snip> 
> TNE The Regency Sourcebook - it's closest in style to BTC, but BTC just has
> the edge iMO.

I'd have to give the "edge" to RSB, though i like them both (probably the best
G:T book so far, including Star Mercs, IMO).  It has library data, ship
designs, a Ref's section w/ more mysteries and info and covers the whole
Regency, not just the Spinward Marches.  I'd have much prefered BtC to be a
"Domain of Deneb" sourcebook that would've covered the Islands, etc.  The
'recent events' sections of both are about comparable.   Yes, the coverage is
lighter in RSB, since over half the book is UWPs and subsector maps, but it
covers a "bigger picture."   Plus in over 50 pages less than BtC.  A 150pg RSB
would've been *awesome.*  It also doesn't have the typographical errors that
just bug the hell out of me, for some reason...  I like it BtC, but like the
RSB more... course, it might just be the GDW (and TNE) on the cover...  nah.
:-)   


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #125
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 126



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Real" Traveller
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp.
Re: Problems
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Lanthanum
"Gods" of Traveller
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
re: Cloaking Device
re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Computer Programming in Traveller
re: Personal Identification
IMTU code: Psionics
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: EMP Cannon
Objective Longtitude?
RE: EMP Cannon
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Fw: Gauss weapons
Re: "Gods" of Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:00:13 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: "Real" Traveller

> I'm with you, Clay. I figure if it's set in the Traveller universe, it's the
> only published version of the game at the moment, and Marc Miller is getting
> money from it (which one would assume he is via licensing) then it's "real
> Traveller." It may not be "Canon" Traveller, but that's just fine by me. I

That's what i took him to mean.  "Real" being "canon."  I think you're
overreacting, if you took it seriously.  I still heavily dislike the precedent
G:T has set but I'm still supporting the line (though i haven't got Star
Mercs, and don't think i will...).  First In... i'm interested, for various
reasons, for a world building system w/ the "latest'" info (for however long
that'll be good).  I hope it covers everything from star to extended system.
Not being based off've a UWP would be fine IMO.  The UWP is something invented
by the IISS bean counters and pigeon holers, it's not meant to be objective.
Base a G:T "UWP" off've hte system in First In, reflecting the fact it has
Imperial biases behind it would be best IMO.  Far Trader seems interesting
since i'm *kind of* interested in a good trade system (though will have to
review it in my FLGS to make a buy decision).  

What *I* want is the setting to do something, to go somewhere new, somewhere
Traveller hasn't been before.  That is what i'm waiting for, probably in vain.
Supposedly there's a mystery that's going to be built and i'd *really* like to
see that.  Adventures and adventure-ready source material...  I don't suppose
there's a chance we'll get tidbits in First In and Far Trader, though?  Just
getting a facelift on the same material is not going to sell me any more,
though... most of the alien volumes are probably *out* for that reason (i have
the K'kree AM, but am interested in another take on them).  I have the Vargr
*4* times now (the AM, Cogs & Dogs, MT Ref's (basically a skim of the AM, it
appears), and G:T Aliens I.  Cogs & Dogs is the best IMO.  I got Aliens I for
the minor races (dont' have anything Spacemaster) and for another look on the
Zhos (why was Sorag replaced w/ whatever anyways?)  I don't think i need
another look at the Aslan, Hivers (though if there was to be another Hive or
two... maybe further beyond the Hive Federation...<g>)

Are there going to be *any* "official" G:T adventures?  Or an adventure
book/anthology?  Or at least tidbits inserted in the books?  Or is this
"building mystery" just a lure?

> It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market, it is SETTINGS
> that sell games, not rules. Numerous examples exist of games with arguably
> weak systems (Deadlands and Shadowrun being two examples)that are popular
> because their settings are so compelling. Traveller will sell IF the SETTING
> is emphasized; which rules system is used is IRRELEVANT.

I'd agree the rules are largely irrelevant to existing Traveller players, and
experienced gamers, in general (especially for me, as i don't intend to use
them, in any case, being happy w/ TNE.  You're happy w/ G:T.  Others are happy
w/ the DGP system or even the "2d6 and pray" system.  Still others here use
CORPS or even something else...anyone playing Alterntity Traveller?).  I
heartily disagree that it's irrelevant for everyone.  Or that yet another take
on teh same setting will sell, as is.  It will sell if it has something new.
The grognards are going to buy pretty much anything w/ a Traveller logo on it,
at least a few volumes of it, too.  T4 proved that.  It also proved that the
grognards are not enough.  People who haven't been impressed by previous
incarnations aren't going to slavishly jump on board unless there's something
to attract them.   People both acquainted w/ Traveller, but who aren't die-
hards, *and* new blood needs to be had...maybe the GURPS'ers will be enough...
or maybe G:T has always been intended as a temporary interlude until T5.  I
wonder if the license will be continued if, and when, T5 actually comes out.
Or maybe it's been intended as permanent and there will be no indepedant
Traveller and T5 is a flying dutchman.  Or maybe they're intended to coexist.

I'd really like T5 to do something bold and fresh.  Go to 3D starmapping, to
the New Era or to interstellar wars and/or the 4th Imperium/1st Republic (or
better yet, take the direction MT was going and have a bunch of polities in
Imperial space).  Break up the monolithic setting and introduce something
dynamic.  Stir the pot!


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:08:19 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp.

Clif writes:
>
> Do they exist in canonical Traveller?  Should they exist?
> All you would need is a way to see through obstacles, correct?
> (Reminds me of the optics on that Arnold Swarzenegger movie,
> "Eraser" was it?)
>
> What kind of rifle was that in that movie?


Sigh.  Pure Hollywood.  Man portable near C weapons
are beyond our reach.  Newton pretty much rules out
such super weapons.  (Equal and opposite reactions.)

Let's see, high tech sniper systems = high one shot 
lethality with minimal risk to the operator.

  Optically guided anti-personnel (mini) cruise missiles

  single shot 12.7mm sniper hover drone

  meson gun/orbital satellite slaved to the sniper's
    target designator and comm gear (skip the bulky rifle,
    watch out for the guy with the fancy pen-light) *WEG*

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:02:23 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems

> > Every Digest I have received since Mid January has been blank or heaps of
e-
> > gibberish. This has not occured with any other mailing list or download --
> > only TML. I can post just fine (as this proves) but cannot receive.
> >
> > Anyone have a clue? I rather like being in touch with the fan base for the
> > game I'm Line Editor of...: )
> 
> Since we aren't hearing massive complaints, I'd tend to suspect AOL.
> Maybe you need to get an account somewhere else?

Nope.  I'm on the digest and aol and i'm getting them fine, except when
someone does an attachment or that Microsloth garbage.  Course, i'm on through
TCP/IP connection... but i just tried through the normal phone line and that
seems to work fine, too.  I'd probably take it up w/ majordomo...  or probably
un- and re-sub, first, actually.  This is assuming nothing funky has been done
w/ the email settings...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:27:41 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

You need a copy of the rules too...You can download GURPS Lite from 
www.sjgames.com/GURPS..or get a copy of the rulebook...GURPS Space is 
handy too...if u are in a buying mood you can get GURPS Ultra 
Tech...GURPS psionics is good to have if Psi is going to be a big part 
of a campaign...
Mike




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:10:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

At 02:13 PM 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Do they exist in canonical Traveller?  Should they exist?  All you would
>need is a way to see through obstacles, correct?  (Reminds me of the optics
>on that Arnold Swarzenegger movie, "Eraser" was it?)
>
>What kind of rifle was that in that movie?

as I recall, it was supposed to be a particle accelerator.

not.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:10:52 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:25:38 -0600, "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
>This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
>What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?

>Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
>radiation?...

Radiation resistant bacteria have multiple copies of their
DNA or are very good at taking pieces of DNA and sticking it
back together.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:55:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum

In mail you write:

>>I *used* to have a couple TRS CoCo 2's and a CoCo3.  Great lil
>>machines,  especially when you ran them on OS9.  
>
> Yep, I hear you.  I have a CoCo 2 in the closet next to the TRS80,
> the Timex Sinclair and the Tandy 2000...the 1000 and Model 16, I
> gave away.  ;->

Hey! You've got a 2000! I "inherited" a couple from someone who moved
and didn't want to throw them out. 

Do you have any interesting software? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:51:23 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: "Gods" of Traveller

Cliff wrote:
<while experienced GM's will rework a rules system to a point that is 
comfortably realistic for their role as "god".> 

From a post at the WebRPG:
<Delusions of grandeur>
<Over the years I have heard many references to GMs being the gods of a 
game (most often the GM referring to himself, and I don't mean it in a 
role-playing sense). I think that is a very poor analogy.  I think of 
the GM more as a CEO of a company. The GM sets policy, pay rates, has 
incentives for those who do well, penalties for going against policy and 
so on. More importantly, the players can quit at anytime. A god could 
very easily stop a player from quitting, a CEO couldn't. I have yet to 
see a player worshipping a GM. If I did I think I would have to kick 
them>
<Just my opinion.>

Just trying to make a point, not intended as a flame.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:18:41 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

Jonas Karlsson posted:
>
>Well, according to IGN it is anway:
>
>http://pc.ign.com/news/6857.html
>
>Looks interesting, especially the bits about the chief programmer of
>Daggerfall being involved (and a 'huge Traveller fan'), I rather liked
>Daggerfall. (Old 3d tech, *way* too large, but strangely compelling.)
>
>Or, to go straight to the source:
>
>http://www.fenriswolf.com/trav2.html
>
>They do indeed say that they have the rights, but nothing else really.
;-)

This is something I've always wanted to see once I played
the 2nd Traveller computer game. Unfortunately the
Fenris Wolf site also states they're currently suing
IGN. 'sigh'

Don't get your hopes up,.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:50:13 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Cloaking Device

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So the new way to spy: Equip an Imperial merchant with a cheap Zhodani
radio receiver. Jump in system. Detect the disabling transmission.
Log the presence of a top secret research station of hidden fleet.
Pretend not to have seen it and do your bit of trading.
Jump to the next world and the beauty is that the Imperials don't
even suspect that you know where they are.

If your top secret research station does not reduce emissions to avoid a
merchant, then any non-Imperial spy ship can see it. If it can hide
from a non-Imperial spy ship, it doesn't need the vchip.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Easy way to counter: put one (or ten) of these transmitters - not a base
or fleet, just a transmitter - in every system where you have a presence,
even if it's just a refuelling stop.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:04:22 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But it's still *inherently* impossible to have an atmosphere that has
very thin through dense *pressure*, but no oxygen. Yet this *should* be
common. 

Well, you can have it as "exotic". But that just screws up the
probability. Because that sort of atmosphere should actually be pretty
*common*. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember that the standard system generation process makes main
worlds - the best world available in the system. An atmosphere with oxygen
(even a thin or tainted one) would have a lot of weight in determining
whether the world was "best" or not.

Imagine what the other worlds in a system are like when the best one
has an insidious atmosphere! <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:12:11 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Computer Programming in Traveller

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A quirk of the rules - someone with Computer-3 is both an excellent
>programmer *and* and excellent hardware repair person. What does it
>say about the SOA computer technology when people see no reason
>to specialize software skills over hardware skills?

That the computer rules were written in 1977 ? :-)

What might be appropriate is Asimov's Robot psychiatrist <sp?>
characters who have to "debug" the robots by talking to them
and understanding their problems, not by printing out their
source code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reminds me of Han Solo hauling C3P0 off to "talk to" the Millenium
Falcon's computer to see what was wrong with the hyperdrive.
As I recall, Threepio found the Falcon computer's dialect to be most
unusual.

Perhaps hardware repair is a matter of asking the computer what it
thinks is wrong with itself, and popping in replacement modules for
the bits the computer thinks are busted...or tweaking the software to
work around the busted parts at a lower capability.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:18:22 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Personal Identification

Anders Backman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I don't particularly like guaranteed unbreakable codes IMTU as sometimes
canon (Trillion Credit Squadron mentions that a player capturing an enemy
vessel might learn their orders) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's also noted as being such a rare occurrence that no rules are given
for it, people should just be "aware of the possibility".

Getting information from the computers on a captured enemy ship would
probably mean you boarded it while the computer was still running, and
put a gun to the head of a person with enough security clearance to
keep it running. Easy to prevent, but things do go wrong in war.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:54:20 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: IMTU code: Psionics

Over the years I have heard a wide variety of opinions about psionics in 
Traveller.  I am surprised there is no code for this in the IMTU code.  
How would you define this code and rate psionics IYTU?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:18:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

Clif wrote:
> 
> Do they exist in canonical Traveller?  Should they exist?  All you would
> need is a way to see through obstacles, correct?  (Reminds me of the optics
> on that Arnold Swarzenegger movie, "Eraser" was it?)
> 
> What kind of rifle was that in that movie?

No they don't exist, IIRC, as published canonical designs in Traveller,
but man-portable meson weapons certainly are possible with FFS (don't
remember offhand about FFS2)...as are plasma _pistols_. Made one once,
think I posted it to the list. It was a huge honking pistol (0.5 m long,
2 or 3 kg IIRC) with the recoil from hell, but it was a pistol,
nonetheless. Did something like 6 or 8 dice of damage, too.

"Do you feel lucky, punk?" ;-) 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:22:15 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

All, just recently saw an article, website, or book that showed a "Bermuda
Triangle"-like area of the Spinward Marches.  Along with it was a partial
list of ships (I think) that were lost in this area.  IIRC this area
straddled the shared borders of Vilis / Lanth / Sword Worlds / and Lunion.
Can someone please point me back to that reference?  I have absolutely no
idea where I saw it and I can't seem to refind it!!!  I'd wanted to use some
of that information for my "real" Traveller site that I'm in the process of
putting together.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:25:32 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Electro Magnetic Pulse.  Nominally a by-product of a nuclear explosion.
It's what's responsible for knocking out electronics during a nuclear blast.
IIRC, the US Navy's done some experimenting with EMP ship based weapons (no
explosions involved) for disabling ships, planes, and missles.  Don't know
if they got anywhere with it and I have no idea where I heard that from, but
I think it was several sources.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:05 PM
Subject: EMP Cannon


>What's an EMP Cannon?
>
>Explain the whole concept for me, please.
>
>--Clif
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:11:30 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Objective Longtitude?

Can there be an objective way to quantify this?  I'm getting to a survey of a
world.  The equator (and latitude) is easy, but how to do longitude?  Pick the
tallest mountain?  That could take awhile to find, though, couldn't it?  Is
there anyway based on the "natural" features of a world, that will be
relatively unchanging?  Maybe some way the magnetic field works or somehting.
I'm thinking bout the records of a far previous civilization (like the Ziru
Sirka or maybe Rule of Man, if not before the ZS, but after the Ancients) that
indicate coordinates, etc.  But w/o knowing where they set longitude at,
basically, it would be unknowable...  

Maybe put a beacon at an effectively random spot?  I think that would work,
but i want something that could apply maybe 10 or 20 thousand years, if not
hundreds of thousands.  Would anything work over millions?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:30:27 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: RE: EMP Cannon

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>
> What's an EMP Cannon?
>
> Explain the whole concept for me, please.

It's what happens when you question the Traveller background.

(Kidding)

An EMP pulse, in it's only real-world form (of which I'm aware) is what you
get when you set off a nuclear bomb - a big honking magnetic pulse that
expands outward. When the magnetic field crosses some conductor, the
magnetic field induces a current in the conductor. There's some sort of
calculus involved, but suffice it to say that if the magnetic field looks
like a big spike, the electrical current will also be a honkin' big spike,
which is generally a bad thing. Electronic devices will short out,
transistors and other semiconductor devices will get fried, etc.

Presumably an EMP cannon is a gun that generates a honkin' big magnetic
pulse that can be directed against electronics to blow them out without any
direct contact.

The problem if (of course) that I don't think it's really possible to
generate a magnetic field that big without a huge amount of energy or some
sort of undesirable side effects. But, assuming that that's the problem of
the engineering department, it's a neat toy.

It is possible to hardened equipment to make it effectively immune to big
magnetic fields, either by encasing it in a conductive wrapper or by
building it without electronics, with optics or hydraulics or somesuch
instead.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:31:11 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:17:22 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>

>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

You need GURPS Basic.  (Though you can download GURPS Lite for
free and probably squeek by)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:57:09 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Fw: Gauss weapons

>  Conceptually I've also got larger
>>caliber (read more effective) gauss rifles / pistols floating around in my
>>head, but I haven't done any FF&Sv2 work on it yet since I hate long math
>:)
>>Isn't there a design spreadsheet out there like Andy Akins' excellent
>>starship sheet that I use for those of us that hate math?  Two of my
>>favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
>>sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
>>switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
>>tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
>>site.

I have a gauss (and some other) small arms design spreadsheet for FF&SI.
Its relatively crude, but quite functional.  Email me privately for a copy.

There is zero chance of a sequel for FF&SII until I get my hands on a copy
(which, by the way, I have 'paid for' but never received from IG).

In any case I play Megatraveller now and all such things are moot.  If only
there were a reliable translator to MT.


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:36:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: "Gods" of Traveller

>Cliff wrote:
><while experienced GM's will rework a rules system to a point that is
>comfortably realistic for their role as "god".>
>
>>From a post at the WebRPG:
><Delusions of grandeur>
><Over the years I have heard many references to GMs being the gods of a
>game (most often the GM referring to himself, and I don't mean it in a
>role-playing sense). I think that is a very poor analogy.  I think of
>the GM more as a CEO of a company. The GM sets policy, pay rates, has
>incentives for those who do well, penalties for going against policy and
>so on. More importantly, the players can quit at anytime.

Yeah, and go serve another god.  The GM is god.  I don't see how you can say
anything else.  At any moment, the GM can collect character sheets, take
them, his books and his dice and toss them in an incinerator.  Heck, a GM
could even toss HIMSELF in an incinerator!  We don't even know if the
Creator of this universe (insert obligatory disclaimer for atheist's, here)
can do this!  So maybe GM's are MORE POWERFUL in their universe than the
Creator is in this one?

> A god could
>very easily stop a player from quitting, a CEO couldn't.

A god can also say, "You didn't quit.  You've been killed."  A meteorite
could splatter some suicidal sap with a pistol to his head before he could
pull the trigger.

> I have yet to
>see a player worshipping a GM. If I did I think I would have to kick
>them>
><Just my opinion.>

You've never seen players pay for a GM's pizza and soda, jus' so they could
get a game going or keep one going?
>
>Just trying to make a point, not intended as a flame.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:36:33 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:38:52 -0800, "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>

>Actually, quoting from the back of the G:T book (have it in my briefcase
>here at work and writing from my home e-mail on my laptop at work :)
>
>***Begin Quote***
>"GURPS Basic Set, Compendium I:  Character Creation", and "GURPS Space" are
>required to use this book in a GURPS campaign.  "Ultra-Tech" and "Ultra-Tech
>2" will be useful.  As a sourcebook, "GURPS Traveller" can be used in any SF
>campaign.
>***End Quote***

Compendium I and Space are listed because it makes references
to some thing from them.  As a pratical matter, you can get
buy without them if you really  want to (you may not be
able to use all thing listed in templates...).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:34:29 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Clif said:

>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?


You need the GURPS: Basic Set, GURPS: Space is also highly recommended,
there are a number of references. Of course, I'd highly recommend GURPS:
Space even if you weren't interested in GURPS.

Other books that might come in handy, but aren't required: Vehicles (2nd
Edition), Ultra-Tech, Ultra-Tech 2, Biotech, Robots, Psionics

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:10:59 -0600 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

>You know what?  It sounds like Star Wars apologetics, to me...  I wonder if
>this was the explanation from the very beginning.


Nahh. G. Lucas just didn't know what a parsec was -- he just thought it
sounded cool.

Or alternatively, Han Solo didn't know what a parsec was, but he thought
he'd try to impress the country bumpkins with his vast knowledge of spacer
terms.

ObTrav: Your characters need to get offworld in a hurry. They meet with a
scruffy, half-witted ex-Scout who's got the fastest Type-S in the Imperium.
"She's made the Mora-Regina run in 12 joules, she has. ..."

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:51:06 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those 
desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
pop turrets.

This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
(1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to cover
360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just install these?
(Especially in the case of AEMS; the image of a single mechanically-scanned
radar dish in a turret seems amazingly primitive)
(2) Why pop turrets rather than normal turrets? Is it for protection? (Is
there any way to hit a popped sensor?) Or streamlining? (What's the 
streamlining of a sensor?) 

It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single 
tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than 
flat phased arrays all over its hull...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:38:09 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those 
desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
pop turrets.

This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
(1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to cover
360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just install these?
(Especially in the case of AEMS; the image of a single mechanically-scanned
radar dish in a turret seems amazingly primitive)
(2) Why pop turrets rather than normal turrets? Is it for protection? (Is
there any way to hit a popped sensor?) Or streamlining? (What's the 
streamlining of a sensor?) 

It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single 
tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than 
flat phased arrays all over its hull...

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #126
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 127



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
re: Bootable Lawyers
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: Objective Longtitude?
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
Re : GT Modules
GT : Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser - 101st BatRon
re:More GT Modules (Long)
Re: EMP Cannon
re: Alien biology question...
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: EMP Cannon
Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon
Re: Objective Longtitude?
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: EMP Cannon
G:T Ship - Beowulf Executive

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:47:08 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

>The flaw lies in the example, not in the logic. A good example must be a
>single event that has multiple outcomes, but where at least one outcome
>is more likely than the others.

>Finding any one such example disproves the parallelism theory. I suspect
>than these examples will all have to be of a subatomic particle nature,
>and I don't have the physics background to come up with them.

Actually, even at a subatomic level, the concept of the universe splitting
works. This is the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics;
every time you perform a measurement the universe splits into an ensemble of
seperate universes. (It's not a particularly favoured interpretation for
assorted reasons, but it's legitimate.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:44:35 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Bootable Lawyers

Peter Brenton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the current campaign, the Computer expert is always atempting to use
"shareware lawyering programs" which are quite serviceable for filling in
various forms and such, but the detail Walter had in his message is right
out.

However, applying the knowledge base along *with* a character with Legal-2
and all those various laws from various planets become more understandable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am a system administrator. For the past six days, I've been cracking a
problem that involved a server, a network ring, two or more different operating
systems, a mail server program, a bad router sixty miles away, a mail
server in Canada, and at least two different internet service providers.

It's fixed. My users can send email. There is much rejoicing.

I spent most of those hours with a tech manual on my lap, or talking on
the phone to someone with a better tech manual on their desk. My 
Computer Skill, whatever level it is, was almost entirely used for knowing
which questions to ask - either of the tech manuals or of the tech support.

I can certainly see a lawyer or other professional in Traveller having a
robot with Legal-3 to tell him those little niggling details.

btw, the robot in my example was probably running Admin, Trader,
Broker and Legal software, with a very detailed data chip for the current
planet - it might even be a robot rented on that planet.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:38:02 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

Jonas Karlsson said:

>Looks interesting, especially the bits about the chief programmer of
>Daggerfall being involved (and a 'huge Traveller fan'), I rather liked
>Daggerfall. (Old 3d tech, *way* too large, but strangely compelling.)


That's fantastic news. It'll work especially well if T5 exists by the time
it comes out. Especially if the game is good.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:47:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Objective Longtitude?

- ---TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> Can there be an objective way to quantify this?  I'm getting to a
survey of a  world.  The equator (and latitude) is easy, but how to do
longitude? <

Starward apex of latitude at a fixed point in time is totally
objective.  Now, what point in time?  That may be a point of contention.



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:51:42 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Clif wrote:

>Cool!  I guess you'd get a female voice yelling "hit the deck!" if the
>bullet is bound to hit you.
>
>- --Clif

It would be next to impossible to stop a bullet from hitting its target
(sensors between the sniper and the target and laser as attached weapon
maybe??).  The system works at the speed of sound, so supersonic bullets
will most likely hit before anything could be done about it (it takes
time to trane a weapon on the target).  the purpose would be to limit
the number of shots that the sniper could take.

>
>I added this to augmented battle dress for missiles and hand grenades,
but
>never thought about bullets, themselves.

The distance required for the "sterioscopic vision" may preclude
mounting battledress (they showed the system with the sensors set 5m
apart). this distance could be shortened
>>
>>The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real
time
>>(predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
>>target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as
a
>>fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
>>requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
>>Discovery Channel)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:51:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> 
> I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those 
> desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
> pop turrets.
> 
> This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
> (1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
> it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to
> cover 360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just
> install these? (Especially in the case of AEMS; the image of a single
> mechanically-scanned radar dish in a turret seems amazingly primitive)

Shrug.  When designing battleships w/G:Vehicles (for non-traveller settings) I
install a group.  Sensors have a field of view comparable to the human eye (by
the rules) which is pretty extreme; you can cover everything with 4 sensors.  A
rotating sensor turret covers 360 degree, which means you only need 2 sensors
(they can't see _through_ the ship they're on).  They way GT installs sensors
is a bit weird, tho.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:56:15 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re : GT Modules

> >I'm also compiling a large library of GT ships (made by others
> >and using my own U-BYUTE spreadsheet) and modules (for new systems
> >and existing systems at other tech levels than 10 and 12). I wasn't
> >happy with the sensors in the bridges; for example, a TL 12 warship
> >and large trader shouldn't have the same sensor suite, and EW is not
> >considered at all, so I would be happy to post module design from
> >Vehicles of extra active and passive sensors, as well as jammers
> >and "fluff" modules, like pools, workshops, stages, halls, etc. if
> >there is sufficient interest.
>
> >I'd also like to post my conversions of the supplement 9 Fighting
> >Ships in GT format. What do you all think???
>
> That would be great....I was thinking of doing the GT stats of the
> Levithan...I need to get a copy of G: Vechiles...One of the few I
> DON'T have....


Vehicles is great! I've FFS and FFS2, and I think Vehicles is clearer
and easier to read and use than either. My design spreadsheet (for
Vehicles and GT) and up to 430k in Excel now, and getting bigger all
the time.

More modules to come!

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:11:59 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser - 101st BatRon

Here's the cruiser for the Cruiser division of the 101st BatRon.

Is anybody else still interested in doing anything for this project?
I've noticed no other posts for this subject for a while now (bear with
me, as I get the tml in digest form and can only reply at the end of
each day or the next morning).

- -------------8<-------------------------------------------

75000ton Atlantic class Heavy Cruiser, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 2 x Command, 3 x Helm, 3 x Navigation, 14 x Commo/Sensor, 6 x Screens,
 274 x Engineering, 449 x Gunnery, 2 x Stewards, 11 x Medical,
 3 x Computer, 6 x Flight
 Total Crew = 773

Specifications:
 75000ton Fair Streamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 20000, PD 4, +14 size mod, 49890.021 MCr, 2016633 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 3 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 150 Utility,
 22933 Maneuver, 3750 Powered Jump, 30000 Jump Fuel (7500 for Jump 1),
 312 Fuel Processor (12 hrs to process), 435 Staterooms (430 Crew,
 5 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 11 Low Berth (44 capacity, 0 Low
 Passage), 10 Sickbay, 1 Lab, 512 Nuclear Damper (50 miles), 3480 Meson
 Screen (DR 60009), 200 Cargo, 750 Power Plant (30000 MW output, 0 MW
 excess), 1 TL 12  AESA scan 47 (2.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 PESA scan
 47 (2.5 spaces, 0 MW), 1 TL 12 Radscanner scan 45 (4.5 spaces, 0 MW),
 2 EW Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (1 spaces, 0 MW), 20 Brigs, 2 Complete
 Workshops, 3 x 50 tons capacity Space Dock (50std Cutter or smaller),
 375 turrets, 36 bays - 210 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 165 Triple
 Sandcaster Turrets, 30 Missile Bays, 6 PAW Bays, 1 Spinal Meson Gun-50
 (900000MJ, 30000 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 579964.28 tons, LMass 581464.28 tons  (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 500 tons), EMass 540964.28 tons (less fuel), LMass
 542464.28 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 7552 mph (12151 kph),
 Acceleration - 3.95G Empty, 3.94G Loaded, 4.24G Empty (less Fuel),
 4.23G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 Spinal Meson Gun-50, 900000MJ : 120000 (193080 km) 1/2 range,
           305000 (490745 km) max range, 6d x 12500(!) damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 21.53 tons, 2.5 spaces, 13.21545 MCr,
Internal Power
 Scan 47 in space, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 25.34 tons, 2.5 spaces, 40.2339 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 47 in space, 1000000 miles (1609000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 56.25 tons, 4.5 spaces, 22.525 MCr, 0 MW
 Scan 45 , 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer(s)
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr, Internal Power

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr, Internal Power

The Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser is typical of the Imperial designs for
such ships: a long flattened structure studded with weaponry, flaring
aft for rudimentary control surfaces useful in fuel skimming. Well-
armed and well-armored, it fulfills the basic design requirement of
meeting the enemy and winning in battle.

The Atlantic class, however, is fast approaching obsolescence, and is
not the equal of more modern vessels in the Imperium and neighbouring
regions.  An upgrade program to enhance the class was considered, but
decided against because of cost, although a number of enhanced
prototypes have been reported.

This class of cruiser has lately proven popular with the Navy for
independent missions, especially beyond the Imperial borders. Used
alone, the ships are capable of a variety of diplomatic and scientific
operations.  Used in squadrons, they provide a useful show of force or
reinforcement for friendly client-states. The ship's cargo hold can be
used to barrack up to 100 marines for small commando operations,
boarding parties and general ship defence.

Reportedly, some examples of the Atlantic class have been fitted with
Black Globe force field generators. This has not been confirmed.

Construction: Atlantic class cruisers were produced by a variety of
yards throughout the Imperium, including within the Spinward Marches.
Ling Standard Products constructed four examples at Mora/Mora in the
period 1020 to 1030. The last Atlantic to be produced first flew in
1050 at Deneb.

A total of 794 ships were ultimately produced, of which approximately
500 remain in service. Depending on progress in current ship
construction, and on the atrographical region, the Atlantic class heavy
cruiser may be considered a first or second line ship. They are being
phased into second line assignments by the Navy as rapidly as newer
vessels can be obtained.

Transfers: Approximately 60 examples of the Atlantic class have been
transferred, sold or disposed of to client-states of the Imperium.
Recipients include several Vargr nations along the Corridor, Aslan
colonial governments allied with or friendly to the Imperium, and many
local human worlds within the Imperium.

- - From Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships, (c) 1981 Marc W. Miller

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:15:10 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: re:More GT Modules (Long)

Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:23:38 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:More GT Modules (Long)

> >Design Stats for Passive Sensor Modules:
> >TL   Weight(tons) Spaces  Cost(MCr)  Scan/Range
> >11+  176.86       17      280.32395  52, 7000000 miles (11263000 km)

> It's interesting to note how small even the biggest of these
> beasties are. GT battleships could easily mount scanners with
> 70,000,000 mile ranges or more...

I might try a design for a 70,000,000 mile sensor and see how big
it is...Ok :

PESA DESIGN:								
TL 11	PESA					
Scan:	52		58 in space		
Range:	7000000	miles	70000000 miles (112630000 km) in space		
Weight:	3500000	pds	1750 tons	
Volume:	70000 cf	140 spaces	
Cost:	2800200000 Cr	2800.2 MCr	
Power:	0 kW		0 MW		

Size in spaces:	140 (Sensor alone)	168 (with Pop Turret)
Pop Turret Specs:	17262	pds	84000	cf		
			575400	Cr	11508	sf Surface Area		

Tot Weight	1758.64 tons
Tot Cost	2800.7754 MCr

That's not very big...it IS expensive, though.

> Presumably a non-streamlined ship wouldn't have to put its sensors
> in a pop turret - does that affect the cost much?

> Bruce

Hmmm, let me check my worksheet...the pop turret multiplies the
volume in the turret by 1.2 (I only included the sensors in the
turret, not the power segment), so I arrived at the following,
using standard materials and medium frame structure (the GT
default):


PESA DESIGN:

TL 12 PESA
Scan  : 46             52 in space
Range : 700000 miles   7000000 miles in space
Weight: 350000 pds     175 tons
Volume: 7000 cf        14  spaces
Cost  : 280200000 Cr   280.2 MCr
Power : 0 kW           0 MW

Size in spaces:   14 (Sensor alone), 17 (with Pop Turret)
Pop Turret Specs: 2479 pds, 8400 cf, 123950 Cr, 2479 sf Surface Area

Total Weight:     176.24 tons
Total Cost  :     280.32395 MCr

Looking at the pop turret specs, it doesn't take up a lot of the mass
or cost of the package.


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:07:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is an EMP cannon?  How do
you make a projectile out of an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if someone
shot me with EMP?

- --Clif


>Electro Magnetic Pulse.  Nominally a by-product of a nuclear explosion.
>It's what's responsible for knocking out electronics during a nuclear
blast.
>IIRC, the US Navy's done some experimenting with EMP ship based weapons (no
>explosions involved) for disabling ships, planes, and missles.  Don't know
>if they got anywhere with it and I have no idea where I heard that from,
but
>I think it was several sources.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
>Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:05 PM
>Subject: EMP Cannon
>
>
>>What's an EMP Cannon?
>>
>>Explain the whole concept for me, please.
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:14:18 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Alien biology question...

>This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
>What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
>BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
>
>An exoskeleton with "shielding" in it? This might work, but physical
>injuries could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...
>
>Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
>radiation?...
>
Genetic redundancy might work well; DNA strands ten or twenty times longer
than ours, with twenty copies of each piece of information and a 
mechanism that causes the majority version to be what's duplicated or used
to regulate biological processes, etc. Or perhaps a symbiotic virus-like
organism that lives inside cells and continuously checks DNA during the cells
life; if it finds two discrepant genes it collects two more and then deletes
the most discrepant.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:09:45 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Bruce asked:
>Just out of curiosity, what _possible_ use would the Scout Service have
>for a dreadnaught?

Long-term deep independent surveys (especially in regions with minor 
governments of various sorts...) 

Even charting a single solar system, if you're going to do it thoroughly,
could require more resources than most of us seem to think. Putting a ten-person
team into the major geologically or ecologically significant areas of an
uninhabited earth requires a crew of thousands...let alone trying to study
a representative sample of asteroids, planetary moons, martian environments,
etc. A flotilla of smaller ships might be more efficient than a dreadnaught,
but if you get the dreadnaught for free...A carrier might be an even better
choice, but the Kokirrak does have that big module space in the cargo hold
which could be converted to a hanger.

(It makes more sense with the AHLs, though - replace many of the fighters
with 15-ton gigs, replace some bays with more hanger space; with jump-5
it's a great survey ship, and 2-G is irrelevant for peaceful work.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:19:34 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

>Two of my
>>favorites; a 10mm version similar to the rifle shown on my site, and a 20mm
>>sniper's version capable of really "reaching out and touching someone" or
>>switching over to sub sonic for silently taking out a target at a shorter
>>tactical range.  Maybe I'll work those up when I post my "real" Traveller
>>site.
>>
>>Best,
>>Jesse DeGraff
>
>What do you suppose the recoil on a gauss rifle might be?  Comparable to
>slug throwers?

Recoil is proportional to muzzle energy, which in most Traveller systems
also happens to determine damage.

So the recoil "factor", in whatever system you are using, could be a direct
function of damage, in the same system.

That said, Megatraveller contradicts this general statement.  A gauss
pistol that does damage 4 has a recoil of "Low/R" and an auto pistol (9mm)
which does damage of 3 has a recoil of "Med/R".  The scale in that system
is basically 1 to 3 (and only important in zero-G, and for rapid fire), but
its the only example I have, and I think the gauss recoil should be higher.

Escaping propellent gasses may add somewhat to CPR recoil over Gauss, but I
think that this is not on an order of magnitude high enough to affect
damage values or recoil by a significant measure (over 10% or so).  That's
just a guess though.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:28:25 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Well, the premise in "Eraser" was that the EMP pulse blew apart your heart
or something like that because of the electrical pulses that trigger the
heart's action.  Can't remember for sure as it's been a long time since I
saw the movie last.  If an EMP cannon existed, I really don't think I'd
wanna' be shot with it.  That could be a very Bad Thing, due to electrical
pulses going on in our brains, and the aforementioned heart.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon


>Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is an EMP cannon?  How do
>you make a projectile out of an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if
someone
>shot me with EMP?
>
>--Clif
>
>
>>Electro Magnetic Pulse.  Nominally a by-product of a nuclear explosion.
>>It's what's responsible for knocking out electronics during a nuclear
>blast.
>>IIRC, the US Navy's done some experimenting with EMP ship based weapons
(no
>>explosions involved) for disabling ships, planes, and missles.  Don't know
>>if they got anywhere with it and I have no idea where I heard that from,
>but
>>I think it was several sources.
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>>To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
>>Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:05 PM
>>Subject: EMP Cannon
>>
>>
>>>What's an EMP Cannon?
>>>
>>>Explain the whole concept for me, please.
>>>
>>>--Clif
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:29:42 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: GT : Kokirrak Class Dreadnaight - 101st BatRon

Bruce Allan MacIntosh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(It makes more sense with the AHLs, though - replace many of the fighters
with 15-ton gigs, replace some bays with more hanger space; with jump-5
it's a great survey ship, and 2-G is irrelevant for peaceful work.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Canon had four in IISS service, IIRC - two making a courier run from
Terra to Capitol (carrying those fine wines for the emperor's table)
and two on long range exploration & contact work. I'd imagine the
changes made would be right along the lines you suggest.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:30:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Objective Longtitude?

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Can there be an objective way to quantify this?  I'm getting to a survey of a
> world.

  snip

> Maybe put a beacon at an effectively random spot?  I think that would work,
> but i want something that could apply maybe 10 or 20 thousand years, if not
> hundreds of thousands.  Would anything work over millions?

Build a pyramid of superdense. That's good for probably 20-30000 years.
(until your natives discover this wonderful strike of elemental
superdense and mine it ;-) Beyond that, it's hard to say. At million
year timeframes you're running into problems with markers placed on the
crust of a planet because of plate tectonics, I'd think.

The way to do it would be define 0 as that point that exactly lines up
at known angles with some well known stellar markers at exactly midnight
local time. Do this on the equator for greatest accuracy.

Still, though, you'll run into drift as the planet's rotational period
changes.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:58:24 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

>> Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 
>>'tainted, low oxygen content'.

>But it's still *inherently* impossible to have an atmosphere that has
>very thin through dense *pressure*, but no oxygen. Yet this *should* 
>be common.

A fact that drove Imperial evolutionary biologists, chemists and 
geologists crazy for centuries.

After years of taunts from creationist they got together and invented an 
alternative explanation known as the Grandfather Enigma. :)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:57:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Clif wrote:
> 
> Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is an EMP cannon?  How do
> you make a projectile out of an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if someone
> shot me with EMP?

Well first, an EMP cannon would be something that fired a focused pulse
rather than somethig like a nuke EMP, which radiates out spherically
from the explosion. Basically it's _something_ that causes massive
inducted power surges in unprotected electronics in the path of the
effect. Note, it could simply be a big EMP generator which is shielded
on most of it's circumference, allowing the pulse out in only a certain
direction. A really big spark generator can cause a measurable effect.

Most likely it's is far lower power than a nuke EMP, maybe only having
ranges as far as a few tens of meters.

What would happen to you? I'm not sure, since people don't seem to
suffer ill effects from nuclear generated EMP's, but that may be simply
a matter of scale. Humans are poorer conductors than say, copper, and
thus the induced currents are much smaller. Probably at the ranges at
which a nuke EMP has an effect on humans, the nuke effect is far
stronger...while humans are poor conductors, rapidly dissipating vapor
is even worse ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:01:40 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: G:T Ship - Beowulf Executive

Want to travel the high frontier, yet remain inconspicuous and secure? 

Stones Throw Shipyards are proud to present the Beowulf Executive. 

It looks like a standard free trader, yet it is built to the highest 
military specifications.   Its appearance means it will pass without 
comment on any but the very closest inspection.  Its defences means it 
will emerge relatively unscathed from an encounter with anything short 
of an imperial warship.

With a top of the range sensor suite, hundreds of tons of armor plate 
and a six G drive.  Any trouble that comes looking for you will be in 
for a surprise.

Designed with the corporate executive, and their families, in mind.  
Every attention has been paid to the comfort and protection of its 
occupants.

You may have heard rumours that we have sold some of these ships to the 
Imperial Navy for dealing with "ethically challenged civilians". We of 
course could not possibly comment.


Beowulf Executive (x1):

Emass 744.5, LMass 833.7, Cost MCr 73.05, HP 24900, Hull Size 
Modifier:+8
Accel 6.12 Gs (6.85 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  4800

G:TL12, 200 tun SL Hull, Armor DR 2000, Meson Screen DR 2000, Nuclear 
Damper 1, Total Compartmentalization, Hardened Command Bridge, 
Engineering, 51 Manouver, 6 Jump, 40 Fuel, 1 Fuel Processor, 1 Utility, 
1 Low Berth, 10 Staterooms, 1 Spacedock (Air Raft), 2 Turrets (3x405Mj 
Lasers each), 10 Cargo.

Software: 2x Auto Gunner 15, 2x Targeting+10


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #127
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 128



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Guinness
TML new host?
Superstable elements (was: Another problem with drop tanks?)
re:More GT Modules (Long)
Re: game mechanics
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: Bootable Lawyers
Re: Fw: Alien biology question...
Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
Re: Superstable elements (was: Another problem with drop tanks?)
Re: Computer Skill
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Alien biology question
Gods or CEOs
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed 
Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?
Re: GT Worldbuilding

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:07:35 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

From:           	"Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Date sent:      	Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:17:22 -0500

>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

Okay, GT says you can get by with GURPS lite, however in all reality you need 
GURPS basic as a bare minimum and Compendium I as well (not quite as 
essential as the rules but still pretty much required). Now you also need a 
playing area (world gen or pregenerated worlds), you can take a previous 
traveller system or sector and convert it; or you can get Behind the Claw or 
GURPS space or First In. So I'd say the basic requirements are: GURPS basic 
rules, GURPS Traveller, Compendium I, and one of Behind the Claw or GURPS 
space or First In (a total of 4 books).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:17:09 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Guinness

SD Mooney wrote:

> "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>
> >You pretty much hit the dues right on the head.  Beer is good food!  And
> >pizza has all of your major food groups.  This pretty much makes the
> >combination unbeatable.
>
> Taken from Q&A in NEW SCIENTIST magazine:
>
> Q. I have heard that it is possible to live on Guinness and milk alone.
>    Is this true, or even partially true?
>
> A. This is not quite true. Guinness does contain many  vitamins and
>  minerals in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C, as well as
>  calcium and fat.
>
>  So, to fulfil all of your daily nutritional requirements you would need
>  to drink a glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints of
>  Guinness.
>
> Dom ;-)

That comes very close to my current diet.

Ob. Trav.,  seems likely to me that there would be a market for one-food
diet product in the Traveller universe.

NeoGuinness!  10 pints a day is provides all the necessary life-sustaining
nutrients you need.

More realistically, a survival drink designed to provide all the nutrients
electrolytes, etc., to sustain life in harsh situations.  Can be consumed in
a vacsuit drink tube, or in easy-opening can.  Now Guinness-flavored!

 :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:11:31 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: TML new host?

I'm getting mail now from traveller@mpgn.com (thats as it should be) and
now
traveller@tansoft.com.

Whats the deal?  Was there a message about this I didn't get?

Its annoying since tansoft mail skirts my mail filter for some reason.

Is there any reason for this?
Should I call my friends at Interactive Magic, who bought MPGN.com
recently and tell them to be nice?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:59:15 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Superstable elements (was: Another problem with drop tanks?)

This thread about superstable trans-uranic elements is fascinating --
especially as I decided to borrow "Illyrion" from Samuel R. Delany's _Nova_
for use in the jump drives IMTU. "Illyrion" is a class of rare superstable
elements that are essential to the hyperspace-sail stardrives in Delany's
book. It's far from hard-SF, but Delany does some interesting things with
the stuff. He describes worlds where the atmosphere has been transformed by
outgassing from "hell chasms," fissures in the planet's crust where
Illyrion has been allowed to slowly burn its way into the rock.

I decided to use Illyrion as part of  the jumpdrive handwave IMTU, because
I never entirely liked lanthanum jump grids (didn't seem exotic enough) and
Illyrion was something semi-plausible that we haven't yet discovered -- but
we might, someday. As Leonard pointed out in a previous post, if such
superstable elements do exist, their exact properties are anybody's guess,
so your players can't nitpick their scientific accuracy.

BTW, _Nova_ (besides being a brilliant SF novel on every level) is chock
full of cool ideas just waiting to be mined for Trav adventures and
background: interstellar economic wars, noble-family rivalries, strange
forms of spoken English, wild socio-economic speculations, deeply strange
planets, lots of weird characters, and bizarre social customs. If you
haven't read it, do. If you have -- read it again! :)

Best,

Glenn

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:16:03 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re:More GT Modules (Long)

>TL 11   PESA
>Tot Weight      1758.64 tons
>Tot Cost        2800.7754 MCr
>That's not very big...it IS expensive, though.

Not ludicrously expensive compared to a battleship, though; adding a 
percent or two to the command ship in a BatRon in exchange for the ability to
detect everything within an AU isn't a bad tradeoff.

GURPS active sensors are cheaper, if I recall correctly, so a 70,000,000
mile AESA should be fairly common...

(As per previous notes, a battleship will probably want multiple sensors,
but maybe only one would be the really big one.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:15:26 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: game mechanics

Todd A. Zircher wrote:

> jhereg wrote:
> >
> >> It is a simple fact that in today's roleplaying game market,
> >> it is SETTINGS that sell games, not rules.

I disagree.  I think both are very important.  I hate a game I've got to
tweak all the time.  I LIKE games that I can straight out of a book.

I'd say the Setting is more important than the game's mechanics, but
mechanics are VERY important.  I put Traveller up because of the
mechanics and swithed to a game with a better mechanics system.  I'm not
saying I won't go back to Trav, because I LOVE the setting--it's just
that I like other settings too.  And if I can have a great setting AND
great game mechanics, I'm putting my gaming dollar there.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:20:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

Just FYI, "First In" isn't in print yet, so that one'll be awhile.
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?


From:           "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Date sent:      Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:17:22 -0500

>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

Okay, GT says you can get by with GURPS lite, however in all reality you
need
GURPS basic as a bare minimum and Compendium I as well (not quite as
essential as the rules but still pretty much required). Now you also need a
playing area (world gen or pregenerated worlds), you can take a previous
traveller system or sector and convert it; or you can get Behind the Claw or
GURPS space or First In. So I'd say the basic requirements are: GURPS basic
rules, GURPS Traveller, Compendium I, and one of Behind the Claw or GURPS
space or First In (a total of 4 books).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:35:47 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Jonas Karlsson posted:
> >
> >Well, according to IGN it is anway:
> >
> >http://pc.ign.com/news/6857.html
> >
> >Looks interesting, especially the bits about the chief programmer of
> >Daggerfall being involved (and a 'huge Traveller fan'), I rather liked
> >Daggerfall. (Old 3d tech, *way* too large, but strangely compelling.)
> >
> >Or, to go straight to the source:
> >
> >http://www.fenriswolf.com/trav2.html
> >
> >They do indeed say that they have the rights, but nothing else really.
> ;-)
>
> This is something I've always wanted to see once I played
> the 2nd Traveller computer game. Unfortunately the
> Fenris Wolf site also states they're currently suing
> IGN. 'sigh'
>
> Don't get your hopes up,.

Good news, bad news.

I'm excited to hear that Marc has decided to enter the CRPG market.
I'm disappointed that its with a game publisher who's claim to fame
is something I've never heard of called "Rebel Moon" on a webpage that
hasn't been updated since 1996.

The only game developer I would trust with Traveller is Black Isle,
who has made Fallout and Baldur's Gate.  The two most successful
and highest quality Computer-RPG's out there.  Baldur's Gate has
done such an excellent job of bring a pencil and paper game to
the computer.

That they've signed some help from Bethesda is good, especially if
they're paying attention to the leaps and bounds that Black Isle is
making.

I sure hope they're planning on multiplayer capability.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:34:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan the
sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Many thanks!
Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:45:12 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Bootable Lawyers

Walter Smith wrote:

> I spent most of those hours with a tech manual on my lap, or talking on
> the phone to someone with a better tech manual on their desk. My
> Computer Skill, whatever level it is, was almost entirely used for knowing
> which questions to ask - either of the tech manuals or of the tech support.
>
> I can certainly see a lawyer or other professional in Traveller having a
> robot with Legal-3 to tell him those little niggling details.

Thats rewriting the skill then to reflect knowledge.  IMO, thats a
research skill and not a law skill.  The practice of is primarily the
_interpretation_ and _application_ of laws.  Advanced subroutines
of a good computer could quickly digest decided cases on record
to give a lawyer a good description of how a specific law has been
interpreted in a given situation.

In my legal and gaming opinion, its takes a consciousness to practice
law.  So as long as its clear that the robot was only really conducting
legal research, as opposed to the actual practice of law, what you
suggest could work.  But I'd put it in a pocket computer.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:39:28 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Alien biology question...

Perhaps if the race had a super-aggressive immune system that would destroy
any mutated or damaged cells very rapidly, coupled with a high
healing/regeneration rate that would repair the damage.   The race would need
to eat alot to keep up with the demands of these systems.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:44:04 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:38:09 -0800, bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan
Macintosh)

>I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those
>desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
>pop turrets.

>This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
>(1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
>it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to cover
>360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just install these?

I usually put 6 in.  I have put 4 in (and a tetrahedron).  I
forget the angle of coverage of each.  Maybe I'll check vehicle
tonight if I remember.

I think the feeling is that a pop turrent can turn fast enough
that you don't miss anything and it saves you a few bucks (or
lets you put the money into one really good sensor).

>(2) Why pop turrets rather than normal turrets? Is it for protection? (Is
>there any way to hit a popped sensor?) Or streamlining? (What's the
>streamlining of a sensor?)

It so it can stick out and get a good look around.

>It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single
>tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than
>flat phased arrays all over its hull...

Do it that way if it seems more likely to you.  I can't think of
any rules or canon that would prevent you.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:44:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Superstable elements (was: Another problem with drop tanks?)

Glenn Grant wrote:
> 
> This thread about superstable trans-uranic elements is fascinating --
> especially as I decided to borrow "Illyrion" from Samuel R. Delany's _Nova_
> for use in the jump drives IMTU. 

Cool! Someone else who likes Delany! I agree, Nova is a wonderful book
for the detail it has presented on a very different society than ours,
yet descended from it. It's one of my favorites of all time. Full of
good ideas for the GM. I liked the instrument Mouse played (and damn if
I can remember the name now)...a sort of multimedia projector, it does
visual, audio and _smell_.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:35:01 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Skill

	I always used Computer skill for software tasks and Electronics or Robotics
skill for Hardware tasks.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:48:48 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Clif wrote:
> 
> Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is
> an EMP cannon?  How do you make a projectile out of
> an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if someone
> shot me with EMP?


EMP cannon = EMP projector

(Other examples of cannons that are sans projectile
 would include sonic riot control cannons.  The
 word cannon is used to indicate a device which
 harms what it is pointed at and not the user.)

As to what a 'real' EMP weapon can do, read this:
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/emp_bomb/emp.htm
Educational stuff, eh?

On the other hand, if you just want to shoot something
and make them feel real bad, check out these fun links.

http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_m90.htm
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_mk82.htm
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/Maadi-Griffin.htm
http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/grizzly.jpg

These are all real world weapons.  My favorite pic is
the little lass with the .50 cal pistol.  (The chrome
grizzly might be a bit much for sniper duty.)
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:52:52 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

Anders Backman wrote:

>As I don't particularly like guaranteed unbreakable codes IMTU as sometimes
>canon (Trillion Credit Squadron mentions that a player capturing an enemy
>vessel might learn their orders) and lots of high tech staple relies on the
>assumption that codes can be broken by other means than brute force
>numbercrunching: I hold (IMTU) that the terrans was far advanced in some
>science areas but lacking in others, mostly mathematics. Terrans beat the
>Vilani by having mesonguns, more warfare experience (some would say
>bloodlust), the knowledge of biowarfare but the ramshackle empire failed in
>part because of a Vilani math invention: the Vilani had knowledge on how to
>take shortcuts when calculating primes; there are (supposedly IMTU) ways to
>calculate primes MUCH (it has not been proven that there aren't better ways
>to calculate primes than the brute force methods we use today, right?).
>This gives the Vilani the ability to break just about any communication
>codes but they didn't win the war by that as they didn't use public/private
>key systems anyway. 

One-time cypher pads. Unbreakable, except through brute-force attacks.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:57:38 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Alien biology question

Andrew Akins writes:
"I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking how I want the 
race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with 
reasons _why_."

	That's the way I usually do it!

"This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant 
to radiation. What kind of biological processes would endow a 
race with such resistance? BTW, the world that they live on is 
highl radioactive...thus the need...An exoskeleton with 
"shielding" in it? This might work, but physical injuries 
could be serious, since this shielding would be bypassed...Some genetic
level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
radiation?..."

	Is the radiation only found in certain parts of the 
	environment, or are the races tissues radioactive as well?
	Shielding will be of no use if the latter is true. Here
	on terra, organisms have DNA repair mechanisms which vary
	in effectiveness. Almost certainly your race will have
	a very powerful such system (perhaps this would require
	significant metabolic energy: high food intake? slower 
	growth?). We members of Homo sapiens generally have two 
	copies of every gene, but we share Terra with some 
	organisms that have one, three, or more. Perhaps having 
	more copies would increase 	the effectiveness of the 
	repair mechanism (it is more likely that at least one 
	copy stays undamaged long enough to be used as a template 
	for repairs). This might make "DNA fingerprinting" easier, 
	or harder...

	But then, DNA is not the only genetic material here on
	Terra (RNA is used in some viruses). Perhaps your race
	relies on a "sturdier" molecule to encode genetic 
	information. Proteins? Polysaccharides? Nylon? I need
	a chemist here.

	If shielding is involved, it might be thicker on the
	side of the race that faces the ground (if that is 
	where the radiation is coming from). It would almost
	certainly be thicker around the gonads, since 
	mutations there might be inherited by progeny, while
	a mutation in a sucker on your tenticle might have 
	only a local effect (or none at all if it is a gene 
	that only influences number of eyes in your mouth).

	To avoid cancers, perhaps your race has an aggressive
	immune system, with an ability to distinguish mutated 
	cells. This may make them highly resistent to infection 
	but prone to alergic reactions and auto-immune diseases.

	If there are "hot spots" of higher than average 
	radiation, perhaps your race has evolved sensory organs
	that allow individuals to avoid such areas. It might be 
	interesting if they can see or feel radiation (perhaps
	only if the intensity is quite high).

	OK, this is getting too long, hope it helps.


Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:59:18 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Gods or CEOs

> A god could
>very easily stop a player from quitting, a CEO couldn't.
Clif responsded:
<A god can also say, "You didn't quit.  You've been killed."  A 
meteorite
could splatter some suicidal sap with a pistol to his head before he
could pull the trigger.>

lol.  Sure the GM could 'say' whatever they want.  In reality the player 
has must quit the game.

>I haven't seen any players worshiping a GM... (paraphased)
Clif responded:
<You've never seen players pay for a GM's pizza and soda, jus' so they
could get a game going or keep one going?>

Sure I have. That's bribery, not worship.  As a GM I am all for bribery 
;)




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:56:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

I have book 6 at home and could send you scans of what's in that
tomorrow. There's deckplans and one or two drawings of the tender in
that book.


Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
> X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
> illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
> artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan the
> sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
> 
> Many thanks!
> Jesse DeGraff
> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:01:19 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed 

> Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
> X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
> illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
> artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan the
> sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!

They're in Traders & Gunboats, dood.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:56:50 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

In a message dated 2/11/99 1:22:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
 you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?
  >>
	You can't play anything at all with just the GURPS Traveller Book, you need
at least GURPS Basic (and probably Vehicles, Space, Ultra Tech as well).  I
though the price was rather steep for something that wasn't a whole game.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:43:00 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: GURPS Traveller a Stand-Alone Pub?

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>QUESTION:  Is GURPS Traveller all you need to play GURPS Traveller, or do
>you need some basic GURPS books to go with it?

GURPS Lite (download the pdf free at SJG) should get an experienced ref
through with GT.

GURPS Basic is good, but not necessary. Hardback looks nice.

IMO if you own CT/MT/TNE maybe T4 GURPS Space is a waste of..... The only
really useful stuff is the space environment stuff, but a good ref could
improvise. I would recommend Vehicles 2 ed if you like designing your own
stuff.

Aliens 1 is good (the Zho stuff especially, the other minor races feel
weaker than IG's Aliens Archive to me).

BTC is a good sourcebook (for normal Trav too).

Star Mercs is an excellent update of the Bk 4 Mercenary and 'Broadsword'
adventure sourcebooks.

I don't especially like the rules system for GURPS (I prefer a task based
one like T4 or MT) but it seems to work okay. But download the pdf and have
a look....

I'd also recommend getting the hardbacks if you can afford to, and the GT
stuff appears better formatted than the other GURPS material I've bought.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:52:48 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>I'd have to give the "edge" to RSB, though i like them both (probably the best
>G:T book so far, including Star Mercs, IMO).

Well, I'd have prefered the shorter style descriptions of key systems from
the Regency Sourcebook, with a few key systems (Deneb, Vincennes, Mora,
Trin, GlisTen, Rhylanor and Regina) done in a MTJ style. This leaves less
to 'canon' or pseudo-canon... Not that I'm knocking Martin and Neil's
work...


> I like it BtC, but like the
>RSB more... course, it might just be the GDW (and TNE) on the cover...  nah.
>:-)


I have only one problem with the RSB (aside from the art in some cases); a
certain plot device.... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #128
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 129



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
Re: GT Worldbuilding
Noble Armada/Letters of Marque ship designs info
Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)
Re: World Building Help Needed
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: World Building Help Needed (continued post-oops)
101st BatRon Update
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: GT worldbuilding
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Timetravel Paradox 
Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:57:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>All, just recently saw an article, website, or book that showed a "Bermuda
>Triangle"-like area of the Spinward Marches.  Along with it was a partial
>list of ships (I think) that were lost in this area.  IIRC this area
>straddled the shared borders of Vilis / Lanth / Sword Worlds / and Lunion.
>Can someone please point me back to that reference?  I have absolutely no
>idea where I saw it and I can't seem to refind it!!!  I'd wanted to use some
>of that information for my "real" Traveller site that I'm in the process of
>putting together.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

The Abyss Rift - covered in Challenge and in GT BTC.

Try Hyphen's site and the Library Data there. I can't remember the URL but
it's linked from the BITS jumpsite http://www.bits.org.uk/

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:00:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single
>tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than
>flat phased arrays all over its hull...

It's the 2300 UTES (armoured in turret) versus TTA (Target Tracking Array,
external and vulnerable) debate....

Next thing you'll challenge the viability of missiles in GT ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:05:41 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding

In a message dated 2/11/99 3:11:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< d have to give the "edge" to RSB, though i like them both (probably the
best
 G:T book so far, including Star Mercs, IMO).  >>

	No way man,  Star mercs rules, RULES  I tells ya'  RULES,  woooooo!
Grunt, Grunt, Grunt,    hurray!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:44:19 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: Noble Armada/Letters of Marque ship designs info

the packet a couple of you guys have asked about contains the following
deck plans:
No stats are provided, so the tonnages are my best guesses.

League Sentry-class Escort (120 tons)
3 single turrets port and starboard, one single turret in the nose.

Decadox Mantis-class Frigate (300tons)
4 single turrets port and stbd, one in the nose, and what looks like a
twin mount dorsally.

al-Malik Odyssey-class Explorer (<100 tons)
no weapons

Hawkwood Hornet-class Frigate (275tons)
Weapons: single turrets 2 port, 2 starboard, two turrets dorsal

a Luxury Liner (500+ tons)
no weapons

The plans are quite nice, and specify which stateroom goes for which
crew-person and where they sit during combat.
the drawback is that the engines as shown are REAL small for Traveller.

The pack carries the logos "Noble Armada", "Fading Suns", and "Approved
for use with Traveller".
ISBN 1-888906-51-0, item number FS#501 by Holistic
(www.holistic-design.com). I paid $14.95 in US$.


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

"You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"  (Dr. Strangeglove,
1963)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Damien Fox [SMTP:phocks@goodnet.com]
> Sent:	10 February 1999 22:01
> To:	Traveller
> Subject:	Gauss weapons
> 
> I was just looking at the Vision-Forge site.  Outstanding!  I did see
> something that aroused my curiosity.  This was the Gauss weapons, and
> I have
> a question.  The description notes that they can be set to "subsonic
> velocity" which makes them effectively silent.  Now, I assume that
> either
> the ammo is differentiated for sub or hyper sonic mode, because the
> flight
> characteristics are going to be markedly different, or there is a
> great
> decline in effectiveness for the super-sonic rounds.  This would be
> because
> good hypersonic shapes tend to be innefficient sub-sonic shapes and
> vice-versa. You need special shapes for the  silent effect.  Also, it
> doesn't say, but a 4mm sub-sonic projectile is going to be pretty
> worthless
> against military armor- well, except on full auto.  Does anyone have
> any
> comments about this?  Note that the silent rounds would still be very
> useful
> for sniping.
> 
> Damien Fox
> phocks@goodnet.com
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:06:24 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)

> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:00:28 EST
> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Subject: Re: GT Worldbuilding
> 
> I'd have much prefered BtC to be a
> "Domain of Deneb" sourcebook that would've covered the Islands, etc. 

The Islands Clusters aren't part of the Domain of Deneb; they don't belong
to the Imperium at all. The Regency conquered them to prevent their being
used as a jump-off point for Virus, and even then the conquerors weren't
too happy to be there.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:19:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Clif wrote:
> >
> > Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is
> > an EMP cannon?  How do you make a projectile out of
> > an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if someone
> > shot me with EMP?
> 
> EMP cannon = EMP projector
> 
> (Other examples of cannons that are sans projectile
>  would include sonic riot control cannons.  The
>  word cannon is used to indicate a device which
>  harms what it is pointed at and not the user.)
> 
> As to what a 'real' EMP weapon can do, read this:
> http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/emp_bomb/emp.htm
> Educational stuff, eh?
> 

HEY! That looks like the basis of an EPG for lasers or a PGMP! Cool! I
didn't knowe could do that right now.

I never looked up all the refs in the back of FFS...is this one of them?
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:29:07 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox (was Re: Time Travel)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> So you see, the idea of "only" a few outcomes is incorrect.
> 
> Infinities are *common* in quantum theory. This is just another one.
> 
Hence the saying, "Quantum physics:  The dreams that stuff is made of."

> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:38:53 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: World Building Help Needed

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I am building a world using the ol' WBH, and I need a suitable primary gas
> > for my atmosphere given that:
> >
> > It is a Corrosive (B) atmosphere
> > The average world temperature is -56.24 degrees celcius (and as a size 6
> > world with a small, cold, red star, it never gets much better than -24
> > celcius or so, and can drop as low as -100)
> > The atmospheric pressure is 25.00
> >
> > So, I need a substance that can be gaseous during at least SOME of this
> > temperature range, under pressure (does that make a difference?), and if the
> > substnce in question behaves differently within that temperature range,
> > please so inform me!
> 
> Well, in general the colder something gets, the less reactive it is. So
> your corrosive will be a *lot* less corrosive than it would be at
> normal temperatures.
> 
One implication of this is that machinery might not corrode very much
_until used_ (at which point the heat generated increases the corrosive
effects).  For instance, the PCs go in search of the fabled Lost
Scoutship "Scurrilous" (said to have survey data on the legendary Planet
of Good Cheap Booze).  Sensor data might indicate that "Scurrilous" is
in reasonably good shape, given the amount of time is has 

> Just off the top of my head, at those temps it'd have to be chlorine,
> fluorine, or *possibly* some gases such as HCl (hydrogen chloride), HF
> (hydrogen fluoride). I think those are about all the gasses that are
> likely to be both gases and corrosive at those temps. But you'll have
> to look up the boiling points of HF and HCl. Cl boils at -37 so it'd be
> liquid most of the time.
> 
> Oops! I forgot the pressure. At 25 ATM I suspect only the fluorine will
> be a gas.
> 
> > (Finally (yes, I'm being a pain), what would happen if one tried to extract
> > Hydrogen (for fuel), Oxygen (for air) or water from same, assuming they had
> > the gear to do so.  What by-products would these create?
> 
> Well, you *can't* extract *any* from fluorine. It's an element. There
> won't be *any* water. Oxygen would exist only as Oxygen fluoride (OF?)
> which is both corrosive itself, and not too stable. As in expose it to
> metal or anything that flourine likes *better* than oxygen, and you'll
> wind up with the flurine combining with the "whatever" and the
> released oxygen atom (which will be *highly* reactive) trying to grab
> some for itself.
> 
> My advice is to hit a used book store that has a "technical books"
> section (or hit a college bookstore, where it may cost more) and grab a
> copy of the CRC Handbook of chemistry and physics. One *invaluable*
> section it'll have is several hundred pages (it's a *big* book) listing
> the properties of inorganic compounds.
> 
> With that table, you can look up all sorts of compounds and check out
> their properties for this sort of thing.
> 
> Damn near *everything* on a planet like this would be fluorides of one
> sort or another. And damned if I know how it could form. But it's about
> the only thing I can think of that'd fit.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:51:44 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>Remember that the standard system generation process makes main
>worlds - the best world available in the system. An atmosphere with oxygen
>(even a thin or tainted one) would have a lot of weight in determining
>whether the world was "best" or not.
>
>Imagine what the other worlds in a system are like when the best one
>has an insidious atmosphere! <G>

Not quite true. It makes the _most populous_, not necessarily best.

I live in Canada's most populous urban conglomeration. It's definately not
the best location in terms of climate, air quality, scenery, natural
resources...

People move here because people already live here. Services exist, markets
exist, and so forth. Many people don't like living here, but are here
because that's where they could get a job. If they won the lottery they'd
leave tomorrow.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:55:24 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: World Building Help Needed (continued post-oops)

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > In mail you write:
> >
> > > I am building a world using the ol' WBH, and I need a suitable primary gas
> > > for my atmosphere given that:
> > >
> > > It is a Corrosive (B) atmosphere
> > > The average world temperature is -56.24 degrees celcius (and as a size 6
> > > world with a small, cold, red star, it never gets much better than -24
> > > celcius or so, and can drop as low as -100)
> > > The atmospheric pressure is 25.00
> > >
> > > So, I need a substance that can be gaseous during at least SOME of this
> > > temperature range, under pressure (does that make a difference?), and if the
> > > substnce in question behaves differently within that temperature range,
> > > please so inform me!
> >
> > Well, in general the colder something gets, the less reactive it is. So
> > your corrosive will be a *lot* less corrosive than it would be at
> > normal temperatures.
> >
> One implication of this is that machinery might not corrode very much
> _until used_ (at which point the heat generated increases the corrosive
> effects).  For instance, the PCs go in search of the fabled Lost
> Scoutship "Scurrilous" (said to have survey data on the legendary Planet
> of Good Cheap Booze).  Sensor data might indicate that "Scurrilous" is
> in reasonably good shape, given the amount of time is has...

...been on the ground.  Of course, the only reason that "Scurrilous" is
still halfway intact is that it assumed the ambient temperature (the
power plant shut down when the radiators corroded away) very soon after
landing.  (Not long after that, the pilot assumed the ambient
temperature as well).  Thus, it suffered a brief burst of corrosive
activity, cooled down, and corroded much more slowly afterward.

Imagine the fun when the PCs decide that _their_ vehicles/landing
craft/starship will be similarly resistant to the atmosphere....

[Sorry about reposting this; I accidentally sent it before I was
finished.]

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:00:15 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: 101st BatRon Update

Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com> writes:
>Is anybody else still interested in doing anything for this project?

I've been saving the designs. Think I got most of them.  Real life is
still intruding (although the nightmares stopped last week, thank God).
Only one more day to go this week, then I'll be able to collate stuff.

Could the High Guard folks please contact Craig (and vice versa) to
convert each other's design into the different systems?  Then we'll have a
few battles to playtest the designs.  Then we can worry about getting me
clean copies of the (revised) designs for the book.

In the meantime, I'm still open to submissions for the 'colour' stories
(reminscences from old veterans, and so on).  And we need some articles on
space combat, although maybe these should wait until after the playtesting?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:45:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Please.  Thanks Bruce.  Book 6 went MIA along with my old copy of WBH.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed


>I have book 6 at home and could send you scans of what's in that
>tomorrow. There's deckplans and one or two drawings of the tender in
>that book.
>
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
>> X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
>> illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
>> artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan
the
>> sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
>>
>> Many thanks!
>> Jesse DeGraff
>> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:50:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

Good Lord did I see it in an old issue of Challenge and didn't buy
it?!?!?!?!?!?  Anyone have page references / issue #'s so I can do a sanity
check?
- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:06 PM
Subject: re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"


> "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>
>>All, just recently saw an article, website, or book that showed a "Bermuda
>>Triangle"-like area of the Spinward Marches.  Along with it was a partial
>>list of ships (I think) that were lost in this area.  IIRC this area
>>straddled the shared borders of Vilis / Lanth / Sword Worlds / and Lunion.
>>Can someone please point me back to that reference?  I have absolutely no
>>idea where I saw it and I can't seem to refind it!!!  I'd wanted to use
some
>>of that information for my "real" Traveller site that I'm in the process
of
>>putting together.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
>
>The Abyss Rift - covered in Challenge and in GT BTC.
>
>Try Hyphen's site and the Library Data there. I can't remember the URL but
>it's linked from the BITS jumpsite http://www.bits.org.uk/
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:51:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: GT worldbuilding

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>However, even without that I would still be of the opinion that a
>>breathable atmosphere requires a flourishing flora and fauna.
> 
>You can get that at a point well before any land life has evolved.

You can, yes (in fact, on waterworlds you have no choice), but it would
mean having an evolution radically different from Earth's. According to
GURPS Dinosaurs, the first forms of life arose around 3,600 billion years
ago, and science is doubtful that the air would have been breathable 590
billion years ago (not 300 as I said in a previous posting). I can't
remember when life crawled up on land, but it was considerably before that.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:03:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>There's no tech level so low that you can't have writing. All you need is
>>an implement and a medium. A small pointed stick and a slab of clay, for
>>instance.
> 
>"By definition" writing is one of the things that makes you TL 1. 
>
>It's a *lot* more advanced concept than it appears to be. The idea that
>marks *represent* something is not simple. 

Since I am of the opinion that TLs makes the most sense if they are
interpreted as the technology that people can use if they have the
required knowledge[1], that simply means that the definition is at
fault. In the Traveller Universe the concept is _available_ to all
societies that are not interdicted. Just as surgery is _possible_ as
soon as you can make a sharp knife and boil water. (So IMO surgery is
TL 1 and not TL 4).

[1] Note, I don't claim that it makes perfect sense; just that it makes more
sense than any other interpretation. I'm talking about the OTU here. The one
with the hugely different TLs on ajacent planets...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:18:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>>An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.
>>
>>Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted, low
>>oxygen content'.
> 
>But it's still *inherently* impossible to have an atmosphere that has
>very thin through dense *pressure*, but no oxygen. Yet this *should* be
>common. 
> 
>Well, you can have it as "exotic". But that just screws up the
>probability. Because that sort of atmosphere should actually be pretty
>*common*. 

The original system was for determining the best available world in a star
system. It should be biased towards habitable worlds. Especially since it
is for a RPG. IMO worlds with breathable atmospheres have more potential
for fun RPG milieus than other worlds (Not that I don't want SOME of the
other kind of worlds. I just want more lifebearing ones).
 
>>An atmosphere with too little oxygen to breathe would be exotic.
> 
>Which is one of the objections I've had to Traveller's world gen rules
>from the start. The atmosphere types have this *huge* built-in
>assumption. 

Oh, I don't think the Traveller world generation system is perfect (though
my main beef is with the recently-mentioned total lack of correlation
between habitability and population). However, if a more realistic system
means reams of worlds where people are forced to live highly restricted
lives supported by complex technological support structures, and a dearth
of garden worlds where neo-barbarians can survive and form pre-industrial
societies herding their rhinoxes across the Sea of Grass under the green
sky, then spare me that more realistic system. I'm all for realism, but
only up to the point where it begins to interfere with game enjoyment.

In short, having only one or two mainworlds with exotic atmospheres out of
every 10 or 20 with breathable atmospheres is fine by be, however
unrealistic it may be.
  
>>I'm more interested in the corrolary: Any Traveller world with a thin to
>>dense atmosphere will have a fairly mature ecosphere.
> 
>Like I said, a *huge* built-in assumption.

Yes, that most worlds in a RPG universe are full of fun places to have
adventures. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:24:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Timetravel Paradox 

Ethan Henry writes:
> 
> If I'm correct, the crux of the matter is that the infinite series of
> 1/(2^x) where x=1..infinity is some finite number.

More accurately, the sum of the infinite series is a finite number (it is, in
fact, 1).  Since each step _takes_ half as long, as well as being half as long,
you can do an infinite number of steps in finite time.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:28:49 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising'

At 16:35 10-2-99 PST, Shadow wrote:
>BTW, wasn't it the Ullerans who used 20 mm *rifles*? As in fired from
>the shoulder? If so, they'd be a *lovely* species to let some of your
>more "firepower happy" players encounter. :-)

By happy coincidence, someone left a copy of the Dec '98 issue of *Popular
Science* in the head this morning.  And on p 67, in an article called "The
Best of What's New: 100 of the Year's Greatest Achievements in Science &
Technology," we find:

   "Super Gun    Perhaps the most lethal rifle ever developed, the
Objective Individual Combat Weapon from Alliant TechSystems fires a 5.56mm
NATO bullet as well as a 20mm exploding round that can be timed to detonate
above, behind, or in front of a target.  A computerized laser rangefinder
determines the distance to the target.  The range is about 1,000 meters.
An infrared night vision and 6X zoom video camera connect to a head-mounted
display, effectively enabling a soldier to shoot around corners."

With two pictures - it's an over-and-under, with the 20mm barrel on top,
fed by a magazine behind the pistol grip (bullpup-style), and the 5.56mm
barrel fed by a clip in the normal position in front of the trigger guard.


James

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:41:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Anthony Jackson writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>>>Actually, as long as its still basically oxygen-nitrogen, it's 'tainted,
>>>low oxygen content'.
>> 
>>Not in Traveller terms. A tainted thin to dense atmosphere is by definition
>>breathable with nothing more than a filter mask. If you need supplementary
>>oxygen tanks it's exotic.
> 
>Shrug.  A mask which does oxygen extraction is perfectly viable unless the
>oxygen concentration is _very_ low.

How low?

>In any case, 'low oxygen content' is a standard taint (per world builder's
>handbook at least, probably others).

And BtC have background radiation as an atmospheric taint. DGP made some
very good books on the whole, but they did make some big mistakes too.

>>It is my opinion that the Ancients should be used as sparingly as possible.
>>Certainly not to explain scores of planets.
> 
>Actually, in this case I disagree, because you're explaning scores of planets
>with only a _single_ action -- 'The early droyne terraformed many worlds in
>the areas they passed through'. 

I won't dispute your main point, because that's a matter of opinion, but just
to attempt to check a fairly widespread error: The Ancients weren't 'early
droyne'. They were an offshoot of the Droyne. The early Droyne were servants
of the Ancients just as much as humans and Vargr.

>Unlike many things to explain by reference to the Ancients, it isn't even
>an action which is all that nonsensical

True. I just dislike the excessive use of the ancients to explain everything.

>(for that matter, you can also explain it by having them terraformed in more
>recent history, or during the first or second imperium.  

Not areas like Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach. The 1st and 2nd Imperium
didn't get that far.

>Terraforming is really only TL 9-10).

Even on the scale you're talking about? 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #129
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 11 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 130



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML new host?
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Homestead-Class Space Service Platform (Type SP) (TNEC 2052 HG TL9)
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Fw: Gauss weapons  
Re: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: RSB vs BtC (Was: GT Worldbuilding)
Re: Gods or CEOs
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: EMP Cannon
Trav for PC on its way!
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:51:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.COM>
Subject: Re: TML new host?

> I'm getting mail now from traveller@mpgn.com (thats as it should be) and
> now
> traveller@tansoft.com.
> 
> Whats the deal?  Was there a message about this I didn't get?
> 
> Its annoying since tansoft mail skirts my mail filter for some reason.
> 
> Is there any reason for this?
> Should I call my friends at Interactive Magic, who bought MPGN.com
> recently and tell them to be nice?

Nope.  You should mail me so I can look into it.  We have been messing
with our name servers so that might have changed something.  I will
investigate tomorrow.

Rob

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:46:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> >Shrug.  A mask which does oxygen extraction is perfectly viable unless the
> >oxygen concentration is _very_ low.
> 
> How low?

Offhand?  No idea, though the dissolved oxygen content in water is sufficient
for an artificial gill and isn't very high.  Also depends on your technology. 
At TL 10 I suspect the limit would be a few percent of standard atmospheric
pressure.
> 
> >In any case, 'low oxygen content' is a standard taint (per world builder's
> >handbook at least, probably others).
> 
> And BtC have background radiation as an atmospheric taint. DGP made some
> very good books on the whole, but they did make some big mistakes too.

Shrug.  Radioactive dust _is_ an atmospheric taint, best handled with a filter
mask.  Of course, the idea that a world which is still inhabited would have
enough fallout in major areas to be a danger to breathe for periods of less
than _years_ is pretty unlikely.
> 
> I won't dispute your main point, because that's a matter of opinion, but
> just to attempt to check a fairly widespread error: The Ancients weren't
> 'early droyne'. They were an offshoot of the Droyne. The early Droyne were
> servants of the Ancients just as much as humans and Vargr.

I know the ancients weren't early droyne.  Terraforming doesn't require the
ancients per se, though they could have done it too.
> 
> >Unlike many things to explain by reference to the Ancients, it isn't even
> >an action which is all that nonsensical
> 
> True. I just dislike the excessive use of the ancients to explain
> everything. 

As do I.
> 
> >(for that matter, you can also explain it by having them terraformed in
> >more recent history, or during the first or second imperium.  
> 
> Not areas like Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach. The 1st and 2nd Imperium
> didn't get that far.
> 
> >Terraforming is really only TL 9-10).
> 
> Even on the scale you're talking about? 

Yah, unless the world is _really_ small.  Most of the problem worlds aren't
really any worse than mars, which would probably be around TL 9 to terraform. 
I suppose it would be higher tech for the Vilani, terraforming is highly
dependent on biotechnology.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:03:58 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Homestead-Class Space Service Platform (Type SP) (TNEC 2052 HG TL9)

Fighting Ships Format								
Homestead-Class Space Service Platform (Type SP)			
                                        E400122-100000-20000		MCr2368.16
5 ktons
	Batteries Bearing		    6				   TL 9
	Batteries			    6			                   Crew 12
Passengers=250. Cargo=1200. Fuel=600. EP=50. Agility=1. Troops=6

        This is the most common type of Space Service Platform that can be
found in orbit around almost every Core and Established world in the Terran
Sphere.  There are even a few in the Frontier.  They serve as the home to
countless thousands of people.  They serve as High Ports, research stations,
manufacturing facilities, Mercenary HQ's. and even the orbital equivalent of
apartment buildings. 
        The light weapons fit and armor belt are more to make the occupants
feel safe, rather than provide combat ability.  The armor does help out
against the danger of solar flares.
        Docking facilites allow up to two full-sized shuttles and a pair of
subsidized merchants to be berthed at the same time.  Ample fuel reserves
and cargo space is available.
        The nearly 300 tons of "waste space" is a contiguous area that is
customized to suit the needs of the station operators.  This may be a
factory area, shopping mall, command center, additonal weapons and power
systems, cargo area, etc.  Whatever is required to fufill the need of the
station.

        -----------------------------------------------

        Deck-plans are on the way.  I'll post when they are up on my
website.  Comments and Critique are always welcome!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:07:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

I wrote: 

>According to GURPS Dinosaurs, the first forms of life arose around 3,600
>billion years ago, 

Ooops. That should be millions, not billions, of course.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
                "I am a jelly doughnut."
                        J.F. Kennedy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:31:06 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

All too true...

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@tansoft.com <traveller@tansoft.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.


>
>
>>You did it in that ship?  You're braver than I thought!
>>
>>Damien Fox
>
>
>...who doesn't look anywhere near as good as Princess Leia, even with her
>Cinammon Bun hairdo.  : )
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:34:34 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Gauss weapons  

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>
>Large sources of ferrous materials will not effectively shield the gauss
>weapon although it may reduce the detection range.  MAD equipment
>detects changes in the planetary magnetic field, thus the only way to
>mask an electromagnetic source would be to enclose it in an equal and
>oppisite magnetic field.  This would reduce the effectivness of the
>weapon, increase the weight, and increase the power requirements.
>Currently MAD equipment is rare in usage but will be more common after
>gauss weapons become common.  Also each shot will produce a single pulse
>of radio (as the magnetic field changes) but this will be hard to detect
>and home in on (frequency is dependent on barrel length and muzzle
>velocity).
>

Even worse than I thought.  BTW, I assumed that the EMS emissions could be
effectively "cloaked" fairly easily by TL 10-11.

>>Even the supersonic rounds aren't that easy to detect.  If you have
>ever
>>been in the butts, you will no what I mean.  The crack of the bullet
>would
>>be loud, but by itself would give no real indication of where it was
>>coming from to the individual troop.
>
>The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real time
>(predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
>target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as a
>fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
>requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
>Discovery Channel)


Wow. OTOH, by TL 10, probably any projectile will be trackable.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:41:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)

> > I'd have much prefered BtC to be a
> > "Domain of Deneb" sourcebook that would've covered the Islands, etc. 
> 
> The Islands Clusters aren't part of the Domain of Deneb; they don't belong
> to the Imperium at all. The Regency conquered them to prevent their being
> used as a jump-off point for Virus, and even then the conquerors weren't
> too happy to be there.

D'oh!  I meant Trojan Reach.  Mind was saying ihatei fait accompli worlds but
fingers typed Islands. I also have what i've dubbed the "Islands part II" STL
ships from BtC in mind. :-).


Gary 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:52:07 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Jesse & Bruce,

I can have the scans from book 6 to you tonight if it would help.Also
scans from the WBH (since I've now got a copy).


Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Please.  Thanks Bruce.  Book 6 went MIA along with my old copy of WBH.
> 
> Jesse
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:59 PM
> Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
> 
> >I have book 6 at home and could send you scans of what's in that
> >tomorrow. There's deckplans and one or two drawings of the tender in
> >that book.
> >
> >
> >Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> >>
> >> Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
> >> X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
> >> illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
> >> artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan
> the
> >> sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
> >>
> >> Many thanks!
> >> Jesse DeGraff
> >> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
> >
> >--
> >Bruce Johnson
> >University of Arizona
> >College of Pharmacy
> >Information Technology Group
> >

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:41:26 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: RSB vs BtC (Was: GT Worldbuilding)

> >I'd have to give the "edge" to RSB, though i like them both (probably the
best
> >G:T book so far, including Star Mercs, IMO).
> 
> Well, I'd have prefered the shorter style descriptions of key systems from
> the Regency Sourcebook, with a few key systems (Deneb, Vincennes, Mora,
> Trin, GlisTen, Rhylanor and Regina) done in a MTJ style. This leaves less
> to 'canon' or pseudo-canon... Not that I'm knocking Martin and Neil's
> work...

Yeah, i think i'd agree w/ that completely.  The one thing i don't like with
those smaller descriptions is that sometimes, there's only mention of what's
happened hundreds of years previous to the "current date" (whatever that is).
I find this in both books, actually.  References to the world did from the
Third Frontier War (even Fifth for the RSB) are just ancient history... If
nothings happened there "officially" in the last century, at least, i don't
think it rates a paragraph description.  Leave it for individual campaigns.
:-)

> > I like it BtC, but like the
> >RSB more... course, it might just be the GDW (and TNE) on the cover...
nah.
> >:-)
> 
> 
> I have only one problem with the RSB (aside from the art in some cases); a
> certain plot device.... ;-)

lol.  There isn't a whole lot of art (unless u're counting subsector maps).
;-) 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:08:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gods or CEOs

The word often translated "worship" is also often translated serve or
service.

Ever heard of food or drink offerings?  Just because you consume them
doesn't mean they aren't worship.

The players are petitioning your grace, mercy, peace, and favor in exchange
for their offerings.

- --Clif


>> A god could
>>very easily stop a player from quitting, a CEO couldn't.
>Clif responsded:
><A god can also say, "You didn't quit.  You've been killed."  A
>meteorite
>could splatter some suicidal sap with a pistol to his head before he
>could pull the trigger.>
>
>lol.  Sure the GM could 'say' whatever they want.  In reality the player
>has must quit the game.

But ultimately the GM is still in control of the character.  The player
might try to quit by saying, "My character shoots himself in the head," and
the "god" (read "GM") can say, "Oops!  Your weapon jams and Lt. Kelly grabs
it out of your hand, slaps you upside o' the head, and says, 'Whatteryu
thinkin', bowaaah?'" or the "god" can say, "Oops, you didn't shoot yourself
in the RIGHT part of the head, so now you're a vegetable.  I'll play your
character from here."

The player is powerless to affect the "god" 's universe unless the "god" so
allows it.
>
>>I haven't seen any players worshiping a GM... (paraphased)
>Clif responded:
><You've never seen players pay for a GM's pizza and soda, jus' so they
>could get a game going or keep one going?>
>
>Sure I have. That's bribery, not worship.  As a GM I am all for bribery
>;)


- --Clif

P.S.:  The only reason they don't call "GM" 's "god" is to keep from
offending the religious.  In AD&D the DM often plays the role of the gods,
so how can you say he/she IS NOT "god"?  The only PC's who play "gods" are
in Monty Haul campaigns and are usually only able to affect the universe in
a finite way.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:12:38 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/emp_bomb/emp.htm
>> Educational stuff, eh?
> 
> HEY! That looks like the basis of an EPG for lasers or a PGMP!
> Cool! I didn't knowe could do that right now.
> 
> I never looked up all the refs in the back of FFS...is this one
> of them?

Not sure, I'm something of a Cro-Magnon traveller.  (3 very worn
LBBs and Striker)  My next Trav purchase will probably be T5.

- --
TAZ

[GURPS is the sound an 800kg swamp pouncer makes when it ingests an
NPC.]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:21:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Okay, I had seen the Barrett Light .50 before... (You can see them being
used in RoboCop, I believe, as if they were shooting 40mm grenades)...

Didn't know they had a bullpup version.  Cool.

I LIKE that .50 pistol!  Dirty Harry, where are you?

Do you have any URL's for that Daisy .50 bolt-action sniper rifle that I
thought the SF was using.

- --Clif

Finally, regarding the EMP bomb...  I still don't see from this how you
would affect a human target with it.  The thread started with someone saying
the rifle in "Eraser" was supposed to be part EMP cannon, but they were
being used to shoot at PEOPLE.

- --Clif

>As to what a 'real' EMP weapon can do, read this:
>http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/emp_bomb/emp.htm
>Educational stuff, eh?
>
>On the other hand, if you just want to shoot something
>and make them feel real bad, check out these fun links.
>
>http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_m90.htm
>http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/barret_mk82.htm
>http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/Maadi-Griffin.htm
>http://www.theshop.net/nitetrkr/grizzly.jpg
>
>These are all real world weapons.  My favorite pic is
>the little lass with the .50 cal pistol.  (The chrome
>grizzly might be a bit much for sniper duty.)
>--
>TAZ
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:24:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

Yeah, the Baldur's Gate makers should be doing it.  I haven't played BG,
yet, but it looks like it is good enough to draw me away from this list long
enough to make you fellows happy.

- --Clif

Sigh, so don't expect Traveller on the PC soon, eh?  : (  That sucks, BAD.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:27:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Okay, that sounds like a cool explanation...

Thanks, Jesse

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon


>Well, the premise in "Eraser" was that the EMP pulse blew apart your heart
>or something like that because of the electrical pulses that trigger the
>heart's action.  Can't remember for sure as it's been a long time since I
>saw the movie last.  If an EMP cannon existed, I really don't think I'd
>wanna' be shot with it.  That could be a very Bad Thing, due to electrical
>pulses going on in our brains, and the aforementioned heart.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 1:08 PM
>Subject: Re: EMP Cannon
>
>
>>Well yes, I know what EMP is.  But what the hell is an EMP cannon?  How do
>>you make a projectile out of an EMP?  And what would happen to ME if
>someone
>>shot me with EMP?
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>>>Electro Magnetic Pulse.  Nominally a by-product of a nuclear explosion.
>>>It's what's responsible for knocking out electronics during a nuclear
>>blast.
>>>IIRC, the US Navy's done some experimenting with EMP ship based weapons
>(no
>>>explosions involved) for disabling ships, planes, and missles.  Don't
know
>>>if they got anywhere with it and I have no idea where I heard that from,
>>but
>>>I think it was several sources.
>>>
>>>Jesse
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>>>To: traveller@TanSoft.COM <traveller@TanSoft.COM>
>>>Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 12:05 PM
>>>Subject: EMP Cannon
>>>
>>>
>>>>What's an EMP Cannon?
>>>>
>>>>Explain the whole concept for me, please.
>>>>
>>>>--Clif
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:38:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Trav for PC on its way!

A game based on the Traveller RPG system is headed towards the PC.

a d v e r t i s e m e n t

Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Fenris Wolf acquires multimedia rights from paper RPG author; Bethesda
veteran on the project.

February 11, 1999

 >...is the date of this announcement, so it must be on its way.  Darn you
killjoys!

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:37:38 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

Hi, 

That was from an article Titled "Lost Treasure Ships of the Abyss Rift" which
appeared in Challenge 44.  It was a good article with a lot of good ideas.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:46:16 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

The article can be located in Challenge 44 starting on page 30.  Hope you find
it!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:51:40 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sniper Weapons of the 3rd Imp. (was Re: Gauss weapons)

>
>The way they described it in "Eraser", it sounded like a cross between 
a
>primitive gauss rifle and an EMP cannon.
>
>Jesse



I LOVE THOSE WEAPONS!!!
Dump the bright green light, however...
;)
Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:55:49 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Jesse,
I think we can get you some scans of these craft...



>Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the IISS'
>X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
>illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can create
>artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or scan the
>sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
>
>Many thanks!
>Jesse DeGraff
>www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
>
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:57:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

Thanks for info Ken!!!
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: KenRoney@aol.com <KenRoney@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"


>Hi,
>
>That was from an article Titled "Lost Treasure Ships of the Abyss Rift"
which
>appeared in Challenge 44.  It was a good article with a lot of good ideas.
>
>Ken
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:05:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

Crap!  It looks like it was a major brain-fart on my part.  I just looked at
the Challenge issues that I have and it wasn't one of them.  Then I
remembered one of the boxes of old stuff out in the garage that I'd be
rootin' through a few weeks back.  FOUND IT!!!  Thanks a bunch!  I'd
forgotten about the garage episode!

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: KenRoney@aol.com <KenRoney@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"


>Hi,
>
>That was from an article Titled "Lost Treasure Ships of the Abyss Rift"
which
>appeared in Challenge 44.  It was a good article with a lot of good ideas.
>
>Ken
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:13:46 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

I don't know about you guys, but I looked in my LBB 6 when I found it again
in the garage and it has 0 pictures in it.  Different 2nd edition maybe?

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed


>Jesse & Bruce,
>
>I can have the scans from book 6 to you tonight if it would help.Also
>scans from the WBH (since I've now got a copy).
>
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> Please.  Thanks Bruce.  Book 6 went MIA along with my old copy of WBH.
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
>>
>> >I have book 6 at home and could send you scans of what's in that
>> >tomorrow. There's deckplans and one or two drawings of the tender in
>> >that book.
>> >
>> >
>> >Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Somewhere out there I ran across a site that had deckplans for the
IISS'
>> >> X-Boat Tender.  I'm now in need of this and any other information /
>> >> illustrations of the X-Boats and Tenders that I can find so I can
create
>> >> artwork for G:T "First In".  If anyone can point me to the site or
scan
>> the
>> >> sources for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!
>> >>
>> >> Many thanks!
>> >> Jesse DeGraff
>> >> www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
>> >
>> >--
>> >Bruce Johnson
>> >University of Arizona
>> >College of Pharmacy
>> >Information Technology Group
>> >
>
>--
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #130
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 131



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed 
Re: Big honking computer
Spinward Marches History (was: Re: RSB vs BtC...)
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Delusions of Grandeur
About the 2300AD List (was: Transmit from StutterWarp?)
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Alternate Travellers
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: GT worldbuilding
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Objective Longtitude?
Re: Another problem with drop tanks?
Re: Gauss weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:41:58 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Jesse,

Your right, I was thinking Sup 7: Traders and Gunboats. Do you want me
to send them to you?

Mike
Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> I don't know about you guys, but I looked in my LBB 6 when I found it again
> in the garage and it has 0 pictures in it.  Different 2nd edition maybe?
> 
> Jesse
> 
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:49:05 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches Map (Re:GT Worldbuilding)

At 09:10 AM 2/11/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>Jimmy Simpson writes:
>> >BtC is basically consistent with canonical maps of the Marches.  
>> <snip>
>> No, it isn't really.  You have one world that has been Imperial since the
>> Spinward Marches was originally published, and now has never been Imperial
>> in BTC (1727).  23 Naval and Scout bases have disappeared.  One world
>> (0301) all of a sudden gained a 1000 fold increase in pop to become a High
>> Pop world (capitalized on maps), and 5 worlds (0416, 0627, 1011, 1102,
>> 3025) lost their High pop rating (no longer capitalized on the maps).
>> X-boat routes have dissapeared (2326 - 2228 - 2231, and 2712 - 2510 -
>> 2410).  Starports have changed without any reason (0607 went from an E(I)
>> to a X(0), and 2735 went from a D(II) to a B(IV)).
>
>This qualifies as 'basically consistent'.  Having 2% of the worlds change does
>not qualify as radical change as far as I'm concerned....

As I said, this was only changes that affected the map itself.  It didn't
include the 15 worlds that changed sizes (including two that went to size B
& C), the 46 Tech Level changes, or the 45 other worlds with major
population changes that weren't explained.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:49:06 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed 

> I don't know about you guys, but I looked in my LBB 6 when I found it again
> in the garage and it has 0 pictures in it.  Different 2nd edition maybe?

It's in Supplement 7, 'Traders & Gunboats'.  I'd scan them in for you, but my 
Windows side got whacked when I hadda reinstall Linux, and my scanner is a 
Win-only jobbie.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:51:36 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Big honking computer

Better check your stats for processors partner. I'll match you box for box
with Alpha 21264 CPU's and blow your doors off. <Not a flame, just a fact.>
Thom <Alpha Prototype Lab, Compaq Computers nee DEC>

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles K. Hurst <charlesh@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Big honking computer


>At 07:24 PM 2/6/99 CET, you wrote:
>I found this on the Intel page
>>With 86 cabinets, its as big as a good-sized starter home (1,728
>>square feet, counting the space between the aisles and leaving a 4->ft
>space to walk around the machine).
>>It has 9,260 200 MHz Pentium Pro processors, 573 gigabytes of system
>>memory and 2.25 terabytes of disk storage.
>
Woosy IBM machines.  Give me 72 Sun E10k cabs with 14 Sun IO cabs (same
total of 86) and I'll give you 4630 400MHz processors (twice as fast so I
only need to use half as many cpus, plus those will come with 8megs of
cache on each CPU), 4608 gigabytes of RAM, and 14.1 terabytes of disk
storage.  Of course, I can't bring that up as one domain yet, the best I
think Sun can do is 5 domains (using SCI and software to cluster'em
together).  If you check out any benchmarking on IBM versus Sun, you'll see
Sun's high end is twice as fast as the nearest competitor's and uses less
CPUs to boot.
Charles Hurst, charlesh@teleport.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:56:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Spinward Marches History (was: Re: RSB vs BtC...)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Well, I'd have prefered the shorter style descriptions of key systems from
> > the Regency Sourcebook, with a few key systems (Deneb, Vincennes, Mora,
> > Trin, GlisTen, Rhylanor and Regina) done in a MTJ style. This leaves less
> > to 'canon' or pseudo-canon... Not that I'm knocking Martin and Neil's
> > work...
> 
> Yeah, i think i'd agree w/ that completely.  The one thing i don't like with
> those smaller descriptions is that sometimes, there's only mention of what's
> happened hundreds of years previous to the "current date" (whatever that is).
> I find this in both books, actually.  References to the world did from the
> Third Frontier War (even Fifth for the RSB) are just ancient history... If
> nothings happened there "officially" in the last century, at least, i don't
> think it rates a paragraph description.  Leave it for individual campaigns.
> :-)
> 
OTOH, one could argue that, if most worlds rate only one paragraph, that
paragraph should be weighted in favor of events most associated with
that world, regardless of how far in the past those events were.  Often,
that means the last major battle fought in the vicinity.

Let's face it.  If you mention the following places to most people
(other than those who are from these places, or near them), the most
common recognition (assuming that the people in question recognize the
place at all) will be along the lines of, "Wasn't there a battle fought
there in [fill-in-the-blank] War?"

Lexington & Concord
Ypres
Gettysburg
Balaclava
Guadalcanal
The A-Shau Valley
Goose Green
Port Arthur
Nijmegen
Vera Cruz
Sedan
Waterloo

Of the places mentioned above, nearly half were battlefields over 100
years ago, and none has seen open combat more recently than fifteen
years ago.  Surely the battles associated with these places rate more
mention than more recent, more uneventful happenings.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:01:28 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Actually, someone else volunteered as well and is sending them this evening
I think.  Many, many thanks for offering to help though.  I really
appreciate it.  You know, the TML community is just too cool.  You guys
pulled my bacon out of the fire for Far Trader and your support since then
has been OUTSTANDING.  Thanks again!

Jesse

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed


>Jesse,
>
>Your right, I was thinking Sup 7: Traders and Gunboats. Do you want me
>to send them to you?
>
>Mike
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> I don't know about you guys, but I looked in my LBB 6 when I found it
again
>> in the garage and it has 0 pictures in it.  Different 2nd edition maybe?
>>
>> Jesse
>>
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:06:27 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Anthony Jackson writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>>>In any case, 'low oxygen content' is a standard taint (per world builder's
>>>handbook at least, probably others).
>> 
>>And BtC have background radiation as an atmospheric taint. DGP made some
>>very good books on the whole, but they did make some big mistakes too.
> 
>Shrug. Radioactive dust _is_ an atmospheric taint, best handled with a filter
>mask. 

Radioactive dust, yes (Though I would prefer a protective suit to prevent the
dust from touching my skin too). But I said _background_ radiation. If you
can find a way to make a filter mask help out there, I will be _really_
amazed. ;-)


>I know the ancients weren't early droyne.  Terraforming doesn't require the
>ancients per se, though they could have done it too.

I suppose I shouldn't be dogmatic about it, but my impression is that the
Droyne didn't do much that they weren't told to do by the Ancients. YMMV.
 
>>>Terraforming is really only TL 9-10).
>> 
>> Even on the scale you're talking about? 
> 
>Yah, unless the world is _really_ small.  Most of the problem worlds aren't
>really any worse than mars, which would probably be around TL 9 to terraform. 
>I suppose it would be higher tech for the Vilani, terraforming is highly
>dependent on biotechnology.

You're talking about providing a complete atmosphere wholesale, not just
("just"!) freeing bound oxygen into an already existing atmosphere.
 
Perhaps we use the concept of TL differently. When I think of large-scale
terraforming being of a certain TL, I don't think of it as 'barely feasable'
but as 'commercially sound'. That means its cost and expected return is
low enough and fast enough to attract investments.

Canonically such terraforming is TL 12 or 13 (I forget), but the TL tables
in Referee's Companion have other mistakes, so I won't base my case on that.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:16:54 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Delusions of Grandeur

<The word often translated "worship" is also often translated serve or 
service.  Ever heard of food or drink offerings?  Just because you 
consume them doesn't mean they aren't worship.  The players are 
petitioning your grace, mercy, peace, and favor in exchange for their 
offerings.>
<Clif>

So are you saying that whenever someone offers something to a person 
that they are worshiping them?
- -----
>lol.  Sure the GM could 'say' whatever they want.  In reality the 
player has quit the game.
Clif responded:
<But ultimately the GM is still in control of the character.  The player 
might try to quit by saying, "My character shoots himself in the head," 
and the "god" (read "GM") can say, "Oops!  Your weapon jams and Lt. 
Kelly grabs it out of your hand, slaps you upside o' the head, and says, 
'Whatteryu thinkin', bowaaah?'" or the "god" can say, "Oops, you didn't 
shoot yourself in the RIGHT part of the head, so now you're a vegetable.  
I'll play your character from here." The player is powerless to affect 
the "god" 's universe unless the "god" so allows it.>

I don't think a player would quit by saying "my guy shoots himself in 
the head".  More than likely, if they said anything, they would say 
"this is stupid, I'm leaving".  Who cares if the GM is still in control 
of the character.  Anyone can create their own little universe to play 
by themselves and call themselves "God" or whatever.  It is usually 
called dementia when adults do it.
- -----
<Clif also posted:>
<P.S.:  The only reason they don't call "GM" 's "god" is to keep from 
offending the religious. In AD&D the DM often plays the role of the 
gods, so how can you say he/she IS NOT "god"?>

So if I play the role of a god in a play or a movie does that make me a 
god?  I think the reason GM/DMs weren't called gods was to prevent 
delusions of grandeur.  The GM is much closer to a director, referee, 
and producer.  If the GM has delusions of being a god, more than likely 
he will lose (or not find) some players because of it.  At the very 
least a GM that controls the actions of the players' characters will 
tick off a number of players.
- ------------------------------


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 99 23:04:06 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: About the 2300AD List (was: Transmit from StutterWarp?)

On 02/09/99 at 07:16 PM,  "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> said:

>>For the rest of your questions, I know there is a 2300AD list out there,
>>you might ask them.
>>--

>I would if I could find them.  --Clif

This might have already been answer, but if not...the 2300AD list
has moved to onelist.  Here's a piece of the Welcome message...

>If you have any questions about the list or your subscription,
>please contact the list managers. You can email them at the
>following email address:

>     2300ad-owner@onelist.com

>ONElist has a strict anti-spam policy. If you feel that the list
>owners violated that policy by subscribing you to this list, please
>send an email to abuse@onelist.com.

>Now that you are subscribed, you can send email to the list through
>the following email address:

>     2300ad@onelist.com

>Messages sent to that address will be sent to all other subscribers.
>To subscribe to new lists, change your current subscriptions to
>digest, or  start new lists, please visit the ONElist web site, at
>http://www.onelist.com, and click on the User Center link on the
>menu bar. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:48:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

...
>Not quite true. It makes the _most populous_, not necessarily best.
>
>I live in Canada's most populous urban conglomeration. It's definately not
>the best location in terms of climate, air quality, scenery, natural
>resources...

  Please be patient, Comrade Prior - the housing authorities are still
considering your application for a domicile and job in Lotusland*.
It might be observed that your usefulness to the Traveller Socialist 
Conspiracy (and society at large, I suppose) would be expanded were you
to make your RPG software available for platforms other than those used
by small reactionary cliques.

        Yours sincerely, etc.

 * I would've used "Maritime Province" for this spoof, but that
  doesn't work in the Great White North

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:57:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

- ---Clay Taylor <baalan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>  I think the reason GM/DMs weren't called gods was to prevent 
> delusions of grandeur.  The GM is much closer to a director, referee, 
> and producer.  If the GM has delusions of being a god, more than
likely 
> he will lose (or not find) some players because of it.  At the very 
> least a GM that controls the actions of the players' characters will 
> tick off a number of players.

Coach.  I'm just the coach.  I come up with the plays, schedule the
games, assign positions and even cut players sometimes.  But I want to
see my players have fun and win a few.  I don't write the rules.  I
let the dice or odds be referees.  I am there on approval.  If my
players "win" more often than not, I'm a good coach.  If my plays OR
my team fall apart then I'm going to get sacked.  Anything else IS a
delusion.


==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:57:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Alternate Travellers

>From: "Robert Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
>Subject: Alternate Travellers
>
>The discussion of parallel universe got me thinking about alternate
>traveller universe. How this one?
>
>1930's Vilani pick up massive increase in radio transmissions from a G2
>class System (V9234) rimward of Agidda.
...
>1946    The expedition come back with a report of a world that is capable of
>exploiting nuclear engery and has over two billion humans. In addition
>several of the system moons and planetoids are rich in minerals.

  I kind of liked the idea of doing something like the Aftermath! suggestion
of setting a campaign post-Martian Conquest (tripods, heat rays, black smoke,
& all), except using a (small, initially) Vilani response from an unusually
pro-active sector governor. 

  The fact that I was reading GURPS: Atomic Horror at the time may have
influenced me in this respect.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:26:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

At 10:21 PM 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I LIKE that .50 pistol!  Dirty Harry, where are you?

go to my Gridlore Tech webpage and look in the pistols section.  it's
there, ready to use.

>Finally, regarding the EMP bomb...  I still don't see from this how you
>would affect a human target with it.  The thread started with someone saying
>the rifle in "Eraser" was supposed to be part EMP cannon, but they were
>being used to shoot at PEOPLE.

Once again, Hollyweird got it wrong.  You affect people with an EMP by
frying the vehicle they're flying in.

Trust me, 90% of the time when Hollywood mentions something of an advanced
technical nature in a film, the get it dead wrong.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:57:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT worldbuilding

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>>However, even without that I would still be of the opinion that a
>>>breathable atmosphere requires a flourishing flora and fauna.
>> 
>>You can get that at a point well before any land life has evolved.
>
> You can, yes (in fact, on waterworlds you have no choice), but it would
> mean having an evolution radically different from Earth's. According to
> GURPS Dinosaurs, the first forms of life arose around 3,600 billion years
> ago, and science is doubtful that the air would have been breathable 590
> billion years ago (not 300 as I said in a previous posting). I can't
> remember when life crawled up on land, but it was considerably before that.

You mean "million" not billion. 

And Gurps Dinosaurs states quite clearly that land dwelling life didn't
evolve until *after* the year round atmosphere. 

Here we are (numbers are millions of years ago)

4,600  earth forms and begins to cool
3,800  first life on earth
1,200  Earth develops year-round oxygen atmosphere and ozone layer
  590  Cambrain period (text suggests that atmosphere should be breathable)
  505  First land plants
  408  Devonian period First spiders and wingless insects
  370  first amphibians.

So the air is breathable 85 million years before there are land plants.
And 182 million before we have as much as *insects* on land. It's a
full 220 million years from breathable until we get amphibians. 

Remember. Land animals need breathable air too! :-)

So "normal" evolution will do the trick just fine. 

Hmmm. Let's redo that timeline a bit:

4,600  planet is molten, atmosphere CH4, NH3, H2O, SO2, etc
3,800  planet is solid, atmosphere is CO2, N2, some SO2
1,200  atmosphere has O2 year round, ("thin"[1], tainted)
  590  standard

[1] the O2 content is low enough to require a compressor, but the
actual *pressure* is normal

So for about 1/3 of the time that the atmosphere has been breathable,
there's been no land life. And the atmosphere has only been breathable
for about 1/8th of the planet's history. 

BTW, it's quite likely that the shift from CH4/NH3 to CO2/N2 occured
before life started, but it's not certain, so I just left it there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:14:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

In mail you write:

> Clif wrote:
>
>>Cool!  I guess you'd get a female voice yelling "hit the deck!" if the
>>bullet is bound to hit you.
>>
>>- --Clif
>
> It would be next to impossible to stop a bullet from hitting its target
> (sensors between the sniper and the target and laser as attached weapon
> maybe??).  The system works at the speed of sound, so supersonic bullets
> will most likely hit before anything could be done about it (it takes
> time to trane a weapon on the target).  the purpose would be to limit
> the number of shots that the sniper could take.

Well, the version I read about was intended for aiming something to
stop the sniper. Say a boosted grenade?

Sniper fires at troops, sensor triggers launcher that drops a grenade
in sniper's lap. Boom!

Once they get this working ok, snipers will have the same problem
modern artillery has. Effective (and damn near *immediate)
counterbattery fire. 

Sniping becomes a whole different game when all it takes is *one* shot
for them to pinpoint you.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:23:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

In mail you write:

>> From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
>> Well, not being a biologist, I'm going about it backwards :) I'm picking 
> how
>> I want the race to be, then I'm backtracking and trying to some up with
>> reasons _why_. 
>> This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
>> What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
>> BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
>> Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
>> radiation?...
>> Any insights would be appreciated...
>
>         I am no biologist either, but we humans only have two alleles per 
> gene. Imagine this race has not two, but eight copies of each. 
> Redundancy! It takes several simultaneous mutations for one to get 
> fro the genotype to the phenotype. And this has a very, very low 
> probability...

Alas, the better the genetic repair mechanism, the slower the rate at
which species change. Evolution gets slowed *way* down.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:28:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Objective Longtitude?

In mail you write:

> Can there be an objective way to quantify this?  I'm getting to a
> survey of a world.  The equator (and latitude) is easy, but how to do
> longitude?  Pick the tallest mountain?  That could take awhile to
> find, though, couldn't it?  Is there anyway based on the "natural"
> features of a world, that will be relatively unchanging?  Maybe some
> way the magnetic field works or somehting.  I'm thinking bout the
> records of a far previous civilization (like the Ziru Sirka or maybe
> Rule of Man, if not before the ZS, but after the Ancients) that
> indicate coordinates, etc.  But w/o knowing where they set longitude
> at, basically, it would be unknowable...

Longitude is *inherently* arbitrary with one exception. Worlds that have
one face "tidally locked" (like we used to think Mercury did) have an
obvious zero meridian. The center of "day side". 

> Maybe put a beacon at an effectively random spot?  I think that would work,
> but i want something that could apply maybe 10 or 20 thousand years, if not
> hundreds of thousands.  Would anything work over millions?

Over millions, you *can't* keep the co-ordinate system. On many worlds
the continents will move noticeably in that much time.

Remember that the zero meridian determines the local time base as well
as setting up the navigational grid. So it's a damn good idea to place
it so that timezones and especially the "date line" (at the 180
meridian) fall in the most practical way. It's a pain when you have a
settlement or installation where the time (or worse yet, *date*) differ
from one side to the other!

If the world has a substantial hydro percentage, or otherwise has a
marked asymmettry in the easily habitable areas, you place the zero
meridian so that 180 meridian (and hence the "dateline") will pass thru
areas that aren't likely to be inhabited. This avoids a lot of problems
later.

If the planet is already inhabited, you use the zero meridian the
natives use, or if they aren't that advanced, you may run it thru the
capital of the group you make contact with. If they are really low
tech, just go back the first method.

And if the rotational period is *really* long, or the surface isn't
likely to be habitable, you just fall back to picking a prominent
geographical feature. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:48:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Another problem with drop tanks?

In mail you write:

> My original idea was a very small ore sample (or purified ingot) recovered
> from a passenger's belongings after he fails to return to the ship.  (He had
> some of his reasearch with him which the bad guys got and are now looking
> for more and the sample.)  How much would a troy ounce volume of gold weigh
> if that volume were filled with an ingot of atomic weight 500 matter?  Is it
> a direct ratio?  If the element has 50 times the atomic weight it weighs 50
> times as much for the same volume of metal?

Nope. A lot depends on things like the "ionic radius" of the atom, and
the crystal structure of the metal. The heavier elements tend to have
bigger electron shells, thus decreasing the density. Though perhaps not
*quite* as fast as the atomic weight goes up. 

It'll probably be dense. But I'd be *really* surprised if there's *any*
substance made of *atoms* that's as much as *three* times as dense as
gold. 

One way to have them discover it would be if they had an x-ray type
device for examining luggage and small containers for booby traps. It
might be just for that purpose, or it might be a tool normally used to
check for defects in large chunks of metal (like the hull, or parts of
the drive).

X-raying the stuff should produce interesting effects. At the verey
least, it'll be *very* opaque to xrays. If it's an actual *crystal* of
the metal (as opposed to just a random chunk, which would consist of
lots of different crystals, randomly aligned) then you might get
diffraction effects as the beam tries to pass between the layers of
atoms in the crystal. This would result in an odd semi-geometric
pattern on light and dark areas on the image. And the pattern would
change as you rotated the crystal with respect to the beam (say by
"shooting pictures" from different angles). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:08:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

In mail you write:

> Damien Fox wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>  As for MAD signature, you are correct, and trust me, that intense a
>>spike of local magnetic activity would show up on present-day sensors.
>>By definition, the gauss weapon is using an intense magnetic field to
>>accelerate a projectile.  Since in most enviroments, ie no ferrous
> rocks
>>intervening, you can detect this anaomoly THROUGH the terrain, firing
>>a gauss weapon will quickly and unerringly pont out your position.  I
>>freely admit however, I have no idea if this effect could be easily
>>shielded or not.  All this aside, the gauss rifle would still be more
> useful >than a CPR.
>
> Large sources of ferrous materials will not effectively shield the gauss
> weapon although it may reduce the detection range.  MAD equipment
> detects changes in the planetary magnetic field, thus the only way to
> mask an electromagnetic source would be to enclose it in an equal and
> oppisite magnetic field.  This would reduce the effectivness of the
> weapon, increase the weight, and increase the power requirements.
> Currently MAD equipment is rare in usage but will be more common after
> gauss weapons become common.  Also each shot will produce a single pulse
> of radio (as the magnetic field changes) but this will be hard to detect
> and home in on (frequency is dependent on barrel length and muzzle
> velocity).

Well, again, rail guns are superior. The magentic field is not only
constant, it's mostly confined between the plates "above" and "below"
the rails. 

You'll get a small blip of static as the needle makes the initial
contact with the rails, and as it breaks contact at the end of the
barrel.

> The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real time
> (predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
> target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as a
> fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
> requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
> Discovery Channel)

Either there are two such projects, or they got it wrong on TV. The
project uses millimeter wave radar to track the projectiles. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #131
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 132



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alternate Travellers
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: Worldbuilding and Atmosphere
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
re: Lanthanum Cloaking Device
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
GMing Philosophy...
Re:  IMTU code: Psionics
Errors and omissions in an Atlas
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Gauss weapons 
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Atmospheric taint
Black Duke [was: re: Starship Operator's Manual

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:51:35 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Alternate Travellers

From: Steven Hudson 
>   I kind of liked the idea of doing something like the Aftermath! suggestion
> of setting a campaign post-Martian Conquest (tripods, heat rays, black smoke,
> & all), except using a (small, initially) Vilani response from an unusually
> pro-active sector governor. 
> 
>   The fact that I was reading GURPS: Atomic Horror at the time may have
> influenced me in this respect.

Ahh, the ultimate GURPS Traveller supplement!  Let's face it, anything with
an '58 Edsel Corsair and a '56 Thunderbird in its 'Typical Vehicles' list
can't be all bad.  I've always wanted to run an adventure on Venus....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:45:52 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Sonar is for underwater - radar is for 'out of' water.  They use radar
imaging for underground imaging (as in Jurassic Park).

Also, I believe the electomagnetic pulse was used to accelerate the
projectile in Eraser, not to cause the damage - it is, in other words, a
railgun anyway.

Have A Nice Day.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 12 February 1999 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>In mail you write:
>
>> Damien Fox wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>>  As for MAD signature, you are correct, and trust me, that intense a
>>>spike of local magnetic activity would show up on present-day sensors.
>>>By definition, the gauss weapon is using an intense magnetic field to
>>>accelerate a projectile.  Since in most enviroments, ie no ferrous rocks
>>>intervening, you can detect this anaomoly THROUGH the terrain, firing
>>>a gauss weapon will quickly and unerringly pont out your position.  I
>>>freely admit however, I have no idea if this effect could be easily
>>>shielded or not.  All this aside, the gauss rifle would still be more
>> useful >than a CPR.
>>
>> Large sources of ferrous materials will not effectively shield the gauss
>> weapon although it may reduce the detection range.  MAD equipment
>> detects changes in the planetary magnetic field, thus the only way to
>> mask an electromagnetic source would be to enclose it in an equal and
>> oppisite magnetic field.  This would reduce the effectivness of the
>> weapon, increase the weight, and increase the power requirements.
>> Currently MAD equipment is rare in usage but will be more common after
>> gauss weapons become common.  Also each shot will produce a single pulse
>> of radio (as the magnetic field changes) but this will be hard to detect
>> and home in on (frequency is dependent on barrel length and muzzle
>> velocity).
>
>Well, again, rail guns are superior. The magentic field is not only
>constant, it's mostly confined between the plates "above" and "below"
>the rails.
>
>You'll get a small blip of static as the needle makes the initial
>contact with the rails, and as it breaks contact at the end of the
>barrel.
>
>> The US Army is now testing a system that can track bullets in real time
>> (predict target and locate shooter before the bullet can strike the
>> target) using active sonar.  Soon this will be attached to a weapon as a
>> fire control device.  This will be a vehicle mounted system as it
>> requires two sonars (sterioscopic) and two computers.  (seen on the
>> Discovery Channel)
>
>Either there are two such projects, or they got it wrong on TV. The
>project uses millimeter wave radar to track the projectiles.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 04:04:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lanthanum Grid Cloaking (Re: Lanthanum Grid)

In mail you write:

>>Oh yeah, "invisibility" requires being effectively *transparent* to the
>>radiation. It hasn't been achieved even with radar. What radar stealth
>>has managed is near 100% non-reflectivity. In space, there's little
>>difference. Even at radar wavelengths it can be a critical difference.
>>For example, a good "look down" radar would notice that there's an area
>>where it *isn't* getting a ground return. And the smaller the
>>wavelength, the more noticeable this sort of thing is.
>
> All true, but tough to do in space.  I did mention 'reference object' with
> that in mind.  If an object 'behind' the canceling ship is also invisable
> then you sensor tech. hits the big red button.

I was picturing the idiot in his "invisible" ship trying to sneak in to
land on a planet and getting nailed because orbital sensors notice this
"hole" between them and the planet. :-)

>>> Also, are you saying that if you built a 4 man habitat in the
>>> center of a 2 mile diameter asteroid that the asteroid would reach
>>> 290K in any reasonable time?  You are leaving out surface area and
>>> thermal mass.  The heat from a 4 man outpost will never heat
>>> 100,000 tons of nickle, iron, and silicon to 290k.  If that were
>>> true the entire earth would have the same temperture as the core
>>> and we'd be very dead.

>>True, you *can* hide things that way. In fact, a sufficiently large
>>"balloon" will get your emmissions per sq. meter down to something
>>non-suspicious. 
>
> Had not thought of that.

I thought that one up a few years back during an early debate about
"stealth". It's only useful if you are somewhere that an "unknown"
object that large isn't suspcious in and of itself. So the usefulness
is kinda limited.

On the other hand, given decent sensors, a *common* activity will be
sending in one or more "recon" ships to enemy systems. They'll pop in
at a somewhat random location, probably a fair ways above or below the
plane of the system. Then they'll deploy a *big* folding array, and
record whatever they can pick up on passive. They can try for some
active sweeps as well, but there's really no point.

It'll be *minutes* before their exit flash reaches anybody in the plane
of the system. So unless ships are operating in full stealth all the
time, they are going to catch some. And it'll take *hours* to get a
ship to their position unless you can afford to disperse a truly
astronomical number of pickets around the system. 

So they can observe stuff for at least hours, maybe even days, then
jump out again. And the defender of the system can't do a damn thing
about it. After all, while you can do a good job of *detecting* a ship
at a couple of AU, you can't *hit* it with anything.

And if you try to close on it, you'll have to do so at greatly reduced
power, and they may *still* jump before you get in range.

I figure the recon missions will be even *more* annoying than U-2 and
SR-71 flights were to the USSR. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:06:55 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

>Yeah, the Baldur's Gate makers should be doing it.  I haven't played BG,
>yet, but it looks like it is good enough to draw me away from this list long
>enough to make you fellows happy.
>
>--Clif
>
>Sigh, so don't expect Traveller on the PC soon, eh?  : (  That sucks, BAD.

Don't forget that there are two (count 'em) Traveller RPG games on computer
now from ages past;  I recently had the opportunity to play Megatraveller
I: The Zhodani Conspiracy again and found it quite entertaining for a few
hours.

Megatraveller I and II have been released on a single CD and are sometimes
found in the "cheapie" section.

In addition, I played a game of the same era called "Sentinel Worlds" which
was very traveller in feel and was similarly entertaining.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:08:17 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>
>---Clay Taylor <baalan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>  I think the reason GM/DMs weren't called gods was to prevent 
>> delusions of grandeur.  The GM is much closer to a director, referee, 
>> and producer.  If the GM has delusions of being a god, more than
>likely 
>> he will lose (or not find) some players because of it.  At the very 
>> least a GM that controls the actions of the players' characters will 
>> tick off a number of players.
>
>Coach.  I'm just the coach.  I come up with the plays, schedule the
>games, assign positions and even cut players sometimes.  But I want to
>see my players have fun and win a few.  I don't write the rules.  I
>let the dice or odds be referees.  I am there on approval.  If my
>players "win" more often than not, I'm a good coach.  If my plays OR
>my team fall apart then I'm going to get sacked.  Anything else IS a
>delusion.
>
>

You know, I have used the expression "god" (little g) for years as a 
game master. I've never had a player get upset about it, and I have 
NEVER asked for offerings, sacrifices, or worship.
The acronym:
(g)ame
(o)perations
(d)irector
has always been a joke to my group of friends.
The phrase "god" has always been used to signify the ability the referee 
has to make any changes in the world/universe as needed.

People have been using phrases like DungeonMaster, GameMaster, Referee, 
and many others for years as well.

The best thing to remember as a game master is that you are a "HOST". 
People are visiting your little world/universe you have created. Be 
courteous and let them know up front what major differences they can 
expect from the published canon. Make them feel welcome, throw them 
challenges, puzzles, and action spiced with humor and tragedy and they 
will keep coming back for more.

The fact is, the Game Master is in effect a demi-god, having the power 
to crush the characters in an instant if he chooses. The difference 
between a good one and a bad one is that the players don't return to bad 
ones...

Roger Barr


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:24:35 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Worldbuilding and Atmosphere

Rob Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not quite true. It makes the _most populous_, not necessarily best.

I live in Canada's most populous urban conglomeration. It's definately not
the best location in terms of climate, air quality, scenery, natural
resources...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If it weren't the "best" planet in the system, they'd be living on a different
one. There are many factors that would lead people to choose one planet
over another...habitability, resources, etc. If there's a garden world in the
system, there must be a reason all 500 million people decided to live
on the exotic-atmosphered, frigid gas giant moon instead.

Interplanetary travel costs much less than interstellar travel. IMO, people
may live on a hell planet of mineral wealth instead of communting there
from a garden world two jumps away, but they'll happily commute from
a garden world that's in the same system.

Unless, of course, there's a reason the garden world isn't very habitable...
like ecosystem incompatibilities. Or a Imperial Marine Force interdicting it.

I believe that, in most cases, you can take the main world listed to be
the most habitable planet in the star system. If it isn't, the referee has
some plot-hooks to put together...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:35:50 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

>Anthony Jackson writes:
>
>>Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>>I know the ancients weren't early droyne.  Terraforming doesn't require the
>>ancients per se, though they could have done it too.
>
>I suppose I shouldn't be dogmatic about it, but my impression is that the
>Droyne didn't do much that they weren't told to do by the Ancients. YMMV.
>
>>>>Terraforming is really only TL 9-10).
>>>
>>> Even on the scale you're talking about?
>>
>>Yah, unless the world is _really_ small.  Most of the problem worlds aren't
>>really any worse than mars, which would probably be around TL 9 to
>>terraform.
>>I suppose it would be higher tech for the Vilani, terraforming is highly
>>dependent on biotechnology.
>
>You're talking about providing a complete atmosphere wholesale, not just
>("just"!) freeing bound oxygen into an already existing atmosphere.
>
>Perhaps we use the concept of TL differently. When I think of large-scale
>terraforming being of a certain TL, I don't think of it as 'barely feasable'
>but as 'commercially sound'. That means its cost and expected return is
>low enough and fast enough to attract investments.
>
>Canonically such terraforming is TL 12 or 13 (I forget), but the TL tables
>in Referee's Companion have other mistakes, so I won't base my case on that.

The concept that I got from this discussion is of some non-Vilani, non-RoM
"Johnny Appleseed" organization/planet/entrepreneur/culture that knows,
someday, they're going to need these planets.

Read "Red Mars" by Kim Stanley Robinson.  The technology used to terraform
Mars in that book is TL6 or less; windmill heaters, black dust on the ice
caps, large scale drilling ops (for water) - except the manufacturing,
which is turning the raw materials of the surface directly into
manufactured goods in many cases (self replicating robots are probably at
least TL8-9), and the biotechnology, which is not much more than TL8.  In
general though, I would say that large scale terraforming is possible at
TL8, just really slow.

That firearms are possible at TL 3 does not make them likely or practical.
The time scale involved in TL8 Terraforming makes it economically
completely ridiculous, and it would take a major government/organization
that had the long view to the point of hyperbole to make this idea work.
On the other hand, it would only take one TL9-10 government in range
(barely) of the Spinward Main that had a few years of Extreme Prosperity to
be able to mount a survey and terraforming expedition.

The remains of that culture, after the civil war that followed a few
decades later, can be found at hex XXYY.   Look out, the surface is still
hot.

A relatively small, premade "drop" package could be sent to Mars on the
next train that could begin some of these measures now, assuming that we
won't need the planet to be atmosphered for another 200-300 years.  Similar
measures may have been undertaken to provide the prosperous appleseedians
with homes for future generations (remember the population growth scares of
the 70s and 80s?  They finally took that little box away at the Museum of
Science in Boston that showed how many square feet each person would get in
2020).

So, what would be left of the package after 10,000 years?  How about their
Scout Ships?  maybe they used sublight interstellar methods i.e. cold
sleep?

I see the seeds of an adventure here.

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:36:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Lanthanum Cloaking Device

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the other hand, given decent sensors, a *common* activity will be
sending in one or more "recon" ships to enemy systems. They'll pop in
at a somewhat random location, probably a fair ways above or below the
plane of the system. Then they'll deploy a *big* folding array, and
record whatever they can pick up on passive. They can try for some
active sweeps as well, but there's really no point.
<snip>
So they can observe stuff for at least hours, maybe even days, then
jump out again. And the defender of the system can't do a damn thing
about it. After all, while you can do a good job of *detecting* a ship
at a couple of AU, you can't *hit* it with anything.
<snip>
I figure the recon missions will be even *more* annoying than U-2 and
SR-71 flights were to the USSR. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's a reason the TL12 courier ships I'm building for the Islands
campaign all traded guns & big engines for another dose of jump-3 fuel.
They don't jump deep in-system, they jump away from it...and take a
look. If the system is full of good guys, they transmit messages and 
head in for refuelling. If the system is full of bad guys, they get all the
data they can and head home.

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:40:25 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

At 22:21 11/02/1999 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Finally, regarding the EMP bomb...  I still don't see from this how you
>would affect a human target with it.  The thread started with someone saying
>the rifle in "Eraser" was supposed to be part EMP cannon, but they were
>being used to shoot at PEOPLE.

I thought that the weapon in Eraser was a Gauss rifle.

Okay, it was actually a special effect that seemed to break conservation
of momentum and couldn't decide if the effect was supposed to be a
4mm hypervelocity round or 40mm HE. ;-)

In any case, the sniper sight was far more impressive.

I also thought that the monies involved were several noughts short of
a sound business case: sell a thousand illegally for $100million
or millions legally for $several billion - I can see a difficult
choice here :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:45:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: GMing Philosophy...

Friends,

The following is my opinion, and may or may not reflect the opinions 
of others on this list.  My comments are not meant to upset or 
provoke anyone, but simply include my thoughts on quality GMing 
philosophy in the recent discussion.  I apologize in advance to 
anyone who may take offense at my words.  Now, that having been said, 
I can move on to the topic at hand.

Like many of us, I have gamed with a wide number of GMs and GM 
styles, and have developed a sense of GMing based on those 
experiences.  Typically, there seems to be two types of GMs:  those 
that allow PC influence on the world, and those who don't.

Among those who do not allow PC influence on the world, I've seen a
wide number who portray and actively support the "GM is God" gaming
philosophy.  I've even seen a GM who created his own screen with the
words "Game Operations Director" plastered heavily on it, the first
letter of each in bold print.  These GMs tend to be very aggresive,
proactive and control oriented, and seemingly hate to have anyone
change their storylines or milieu settings (unless the PCs' actions
coincide with what the GM wants to happen.)  While some of these GMs
run very good games, a majority of them do not.  They apparently run
a game for whatever psychological benefits they attain from
controlling and/or frustrating others.

(Mind you, frustrating your players is part of being a good GM, in my 
opinion.  Allowing them to resolve those frustrations at some point 
in the game is another, equally important part of being a good GM.)

On the other hand, there are those GMs that allow the players to 
influence the game's outcome, and the milieu.  Most of these GMs 
support a more congenial, reactive GMing style referred to on this 
list as the "GM as CEO" style.  I prefer to game with this type of 
GM, myself, as I, the player, feel like I have the capacity to change 
the world (if even a little bit), and to accomplish something I've 
set out to do.  A good GM will rarely let the goal be completed ad 
hoc, but will often throw in some good twists, which gives the 
impetus for further adventuring.  The down side to some who GM this 
way is that during their initial maturation as a GM, they tend to 
give their players everything, and soon you're in a Monty Haul 
campaign (to borrow a term from another system.)

In order to run a quality game, _every_ GM should remember that the 
players do not have to game, either with him or at all.  Ultimately, 
it is the players' motivations and priorities that determine whether 
the player is going to enjoy spending a weekend afternoon with his 
gaming buddies, working out, or spending time with a significant 
other.  The player casts his vote on the quality of the game every 
time they show up to play.  If a GM doesn't run a quality game, his 
players leave, for whatever the official reason.  If the GM runs a 
quality game , his players stay, and they sometimes even bring other 
players to join the campaign.  

And if a player leaves the group, a sore GM can do whatever they want 
to the character, that doesn't change the fact that, in the player's 
eye, the GM didn't run a quality game.  At that point, the GM should 
consider what it was that made the player leave, and determine if the 
reasons for the player leaving is going to cause others to leave.  
And if it's something the GM can address, then there is room for 
improvement...

All in all, IMHO, a good GM serves a variety of roles.  He is a 
storyteller, in that he presents the milieu and its many varied 
inhabitants to his players in an entertaining manner.  He is an 
arbitrator, for his is the final decision on rules interpretations 
and scenario management.  He is an organizer, in that he keeps and 
presents the information produced for and by the players.  He is a 
entertainer, for the fun of gaming is one of my ultimate reasons for 
RPGing.  He is an adversary, but only from the viewpoint of 
realistically portraying enemy tactics in specific situations.  And 
ultimately, he is a Master of the Game (the session, not his 
players), for he fulfills these roles to the best of his ability, 
demonstrating his aptitude for handling the gaming session, the 
milieu and the players' enjoyment while still having a good time 
himself.

I think the best piece of advice I've ever heard from a gamer, GM or 
PC, is: "Remember, no matter how much fun you're having or how much 
crap you're putting up with, one thing remains constant:  in the long
run, it's just a piece of paper.  So let it go and just have fun!"

Thank you for your time.  I now return you to your regularly
scheduled thread, already in progress...

In Service,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:50:04 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  IMTU code: Psionics

> From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
> Over the years I have heard a wide variety of opinions about psionics in 
> Traveller.  I am surprised there is no code for this in the IMTU code.  
> How would you define this code and rate psionics IYTU?

Start with rate:

Psionics-0. There is no psionics! (er... well, I never use Zhodani, 
don't believe in Grandfather, and the Droyne aren't around).

	Used to be like this IMTU.

Psionics-1. Yeah, OK, there is a thing called psionics, but neither 
the characters have the slightest idea what it is about, nor is 
playing any relevant role in the campaign.

	This is my rating now ;-)

	... proceed to:

Psionics-10. Official universe.

Psionics-11. <telepathically transmitted> Join my Play-By-Telepathy 
Game!
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:05:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Errors and omissions in an Atlas

I was reading a children's atlas of the United States to my son last night,
we were looking up national landmarks and enjoying pictures of purple
mountains, amber waves of grain, etc. Each state got two big pages, plus
there were some regional pages in the front.

The authors misspelled the name of my hometown. A river that created
settlements from New York state to Chesapeake Bay was missing
(probably because it didn't go to New York harbor, or wasn't involved with
the Erie Canal). Look at my state's pages, and you think that there's a big
city at one end, some waterfalls at the other, and wilderness in between.

Now, I realize that they had to edit for brevity...but I think they covered
the knowledge most people would have of my state if they've never
been to it. And they missed a world full of things.

Locations of some of the most famous sites of the revolutionary war.
Almost the entire combat zone of the French & Indian War (at least
on what is now US soil). The US Military Academy. The most famous 
glassmaking facilities on the continent. An entire maritime region that's 
almost as classic as the midatlantic coast. How was it decided what
would get a picture or a sentence, and what would not?

ObTrav: Take a look at the paragraph a world gets in a detailed subsector
description. Imagine what they missed. Does Regina have a significant
expatriot Aslan community? Is Vilis the spiritual home for the
Benlau Rheim school of literature? These paragraphs are a combination
of what a travel writer found interesting and what an editor thought 
relevant, so almost anything your imagination desires could have been
left out of the Library Data, waiting for your players to discover it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:06:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Comrade Hudson) writes:
>  Please be patient, Comrade Prior - the housing authorities are still
>considering your application for a domicile and job in Lotusland*.

A domicile I can find. However, I am still waiting for the Canadian
Central Committee of Planning to agree with my recommendation that I could
serve society better if I was located in the Western Coastal Region.  
>
>It might be observed that your usefulness to the Traveller Socialist 
>Conspiracy (and society at large, I suppose) would be expanded were you
>to make your RPG software available for platforms other than those used
>by small reactionary cliques.

But I've been working so hard on our campaign of subversion and
disinformation against the reactionary capitalists south of our border. 

:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:11:09 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons 

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Either there are two such projects, or they got it wrong on TV. The
>project uses millimeter wave radar to track the projectiles.

2 other possibilities:  disinformation, or I misremembered the story
(which contained several new weapon systems, I know they were using a
sonar system in one of the weapon systems but may have been a different
system)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:25:38 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

In a message dated 2/12/99 8:09:21 AM Central Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
writes:

<< In addition, I played a game of the same era called "Sentinel Worlds" which
 was very traveller in feel and was similarly entertaining. >>

Sigh...my very first home computer game. At its end, as I settled into my low
berth, it was with the expectation of awaking to a new adventure when a sequel
was released (after all, it was titled Sentinal Worlds I ). My character is
still drifting in a cyber sleep on a back-up disk somewhere. What ever
happened to a sequel?
J.LaRosee 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:48:40 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Atmospheric taint

The "Tainted" atmosphere listing in CT and onwards is supposedly a Scout
Service appelation. That means it was decided by someone somewhere to list
this world as having a basically breathable atmosphere but with some
problem. Which problems cause the Scouts to stick on a "Taint" label? What
we decided on was that anything that might cause problems if you walked out
the airlock and started breathing the local air would qualify as a taint.
That means that anything from "you'll choke on the sulphur fumes" or
"Allergic reactions to local pollen kill 10% of visitors" through "it really
really stinks" and "Full of dust" to not-really-taints-but-similar-problems
like "so dry you can't breathe it for long without becoming ill" or "you can
breathe it OK but you'll need protection from background radiation" would
qualify. Some of the "taints" are not really "need a filter mask" problems,
true. But with so many worlds in the Marches having "tainted" atmospheres,
we ended up taking a rather loose interpreatation of "tainted" in order to
avoid yet another "toxic dust" or "allergenic pollen" listing.

What we decided was that the Taint label is a warning. Some things don't fit
perfectly into the system, but when you have 8 digits to describe a world,
and breathing the local air is a problem, what else can you do?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:37:58 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Black Duke [was: re: Starship Operator's Manual

"J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com> wrote:


>    Someone on eBay is selling a lot that includes the Starship
>Operator's Manual and several other old GDP items.  The URL is
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=64394510 .  I'll
>repeat my question from last week, which is whether GDP ever actually
>published "Black Duke" before they went under?


Presumably, you mean "DGP".

I haven't seen a response to this, so I'll speak from the depths of my
ignorance.

To the very best of my knowledge and travels round the internet etc., I've
never heard that this was published.

I think I recall hearing somewhere that it may have got as far as a
manuscript but was never published.  In which case Roger Sanger would be
the man to contact about getting it published as he bought the rights to
the DGP material.

Hope this helps

tc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #132
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 133



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Objective Longitude
Re: Atmospheric taint
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
GT Adventures....
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
UTUP code: Psionics
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Human Judges are "gods"
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Eraser Weapon
Re: Black Duke
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Eraser Weapon
re: Delusions of grandeur
Re: Alien biology question...
Starships
Call for proposals
Re: GMing Philosophy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:48:01 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Objective Longitude

> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:28:34 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Objective Longtitude?
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Can there be an objective way to quantify this?  I'm getting to a
> > survey of a world.  The equator (and latitude) is easy, but how to do
> > longitude? 

No world is a perfect sphere (if it is, that's an adventure hook in
itself). Variations in the shape (actually, the gravitational potential
field, which isn't necessarily the same thing) are mapped using geodesy,
from the errors they introduce into a nominal ("perfect") orbit. This is a
powerful technique even at our tech level, and likely to be a standard part
of any survey.

The results are expressed in the form of spherical harmonics, using Fourier
transforms to break a complex pattern into a series of overlaid simpler
waveforms. Some of these waveforms are longitudinally-based (I can't
remember offhand whether those are the sine terms, the cosine terms, or one
of the cross-terms). Pick the longitude line that is the mathematical
minimum of the first (largest) longitudinal term, and call it the "survey
meridian". 

This has the additional advantage, at least on Earth-like worlds, that
since the oceans have the thinnest crust, and thus the greatest
gravitational potential (for absolute height above the Earth's center), the
survey meridian falls opposite the emptiest part of the largest ocean. On
Earth, this is the middle of the Pacific Ocean -- near the International
Date Line -- and thus the survey meridian falls very close to Greenwich.

The survey meridian and the calculations that support it will be stable
over geologic time, and so pretty good for historical purposes. As Leonard
notes, the planet itself isn't all that stable on the order of millions of
years.

> If the planet is already inhabited, you use the zero meridian the
> natives use, or if they aren't that advanced, you may run it thru the
> capital of the group you make contact with. If they are really low
> tech, just go back the first method.
> 

Thus the "survey meridian" only lasts until someone who lives there defines
a more convenient zero. With computerized navaids, this is probably just a
matter of setting the "offset from survey meridian" variable in your
handheld GPS or inertial compass.

On colony worlds, I normally place the zero meridian on the site of the
first colony, which usually has the main starport and grows into the
capital. This is normally the center of colonization for most of the
planet's early history, and so it will be a while before anyone gets around
to settling near the dateline on the opposite side. Even then, the old,
established interests will dominate. Sometimes the capital and/or starport
move later, but then meridian stays.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:57:08 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric taint

>
> What we decided was that the Taint label is a warning. Some things don't fit
> perfectly into the system, but when you have 8 digits to describe a world,
> and breathing the local air is a problem, what else can you do?

How about coming up with a classification system not based on the outdated
theory that computer memory is expensive?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:00:25 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

JLAROSEE@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/12/99 8:09:21 AM Central Standard Time, pbrenton@mit.edu
> writes:
>
> << In addition, I played a game of the same era called "Sentinel Worlds" which
>  was very traveller in feel and was similarly entertaining. >>
>
> Sigh...my very first home computer game. At its end, as I settled into my low
> berth, it was with the expectation of awaking to a new adventure when a sequel
> was released (after all, it was titled Sentinal Worlds I ). My character is
> still drifting in a cyber sleep on a back-up disk somewhere. What ever
> happened to a sequel?
> J.LaRosee

I liked that game... especially the Nerf Wars!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:19:08 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT Adventures....

Some else mentioned that they'd like to see SJG publish a GT 
Adventures....Just wanted to say on the record...that idea has my vote 
too..It would be good to see some new adventures out there...espically 
helpful when u are asked to run something the night before!
Mike

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:19:46 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

They are on the the traveller CD. 

You must have it surely?


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:32:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: UTUP code: Psionics

> From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
> Over the years I have heard a wide variety of opinions about
> psionics in Traveller.  I am surprised there is no code for this in
> the IMTU code.  How would you define this code and rate psionics
> IYTU?

In designing the UTUP profile, I forget entirely about the whole 
Psionics thing, so I would recommend including it as a skill, with a 
number rating how far you've diverged from canon.  That's what the 
skill section is for, to cover this type of thing.

A second solution would be to introduce a seventh stat, separated 
from the first six by a hyphen, followed by a number ranking the 
overall importance of psionics in YTU, similar to some of the other 
UTUP statistics.

Hope this helps,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:38:55 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Traveller CD???  Is that the HIWG CD that I've seen mentioned?  Don't have
it :(  You know, it's kinda' funny.  I USED to think that I had a LOT of
Traveller stuff.  Then I joined the TML........

:)

Jesse DeGraff



>They are on the the traveller CD.
>
>You must have it surely?
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:56:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Human Judges are "gods"

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clay Taylor <baalan@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:24 AM
Subject: Delusions of Grandeur


><The word often translated "worship" is also often translated serve or
>service.  Ever heard of food or drink offerings?  Just because you
>consume them doesn't mean they aren't worship.  The players are
>petitioning your grace, mercy, peace, and favor in exchange for their
>offerings.>
><Clif>
>
>So are you saying that whenever someone offers something to a person
>that they are worshiping them?

When they are in a superior social position, yes.  The point I was making is
that you can worship, ANYTHING.  You can worship rocks, idols of wood,
trees, animals, people, or invisible "gods".  This broad usage of the word
"worship" is backed up in an obscure work like the Bible.  ; )
>-----
>>lol.  Sure the GM could 'say' whatever they want.  In reality the
>player has quit the game.
>Clif responded:
><But ultimately the GM is still in control of the character.  The player
>might try to quit by saying, "My character shoots himself in the head,"
>and the "god" (read "GM") can say, "Oops!  Your weapon jams and Lt.
>Kelly grabs it out of your hand, slaps you upside o' the head, and says,
>'Whatteryu thinkin', bowaaah?'" or the "god" can say, "Oops, you didn't
>shoot yourself in the RIGHT part of the head, so now you're a vegetable.
>I'll play your character from here." The player is powerless to affect
>the "god" 's universe unless the "god" so allows it.>
>
>I don't think a player would quit by saying "my guy shoots himself in
>the head".

Exactly!  Which means the CHARACTER(it being the more IMPORTANT element than
the player in this debate) would then be in the total control (really, it
always was...) of the GM, the "god" of the universe.

>  More than likely, if they said anything, they would say
>"this is stupid, I'm leaving".

And they would cease to have any role in their character's development IN
THAT UNIVERSE, showing how powerless the player is, compared to the GM/
"god"/"mighty one".

Incidentally, that is what the word "god" means in its original Canaanite
language.  "El" (of "Elohim" fame) means "mighty one".  In the Old
Testament, since the word continued to be used in Hebrew, a derivative of
Canaanite/Phoenician, "elohim" is also used to refer to humans who are
"judges" and even "angels".  So really, the etymology of the word proves
that, YES, a GM *is* "god" of the campaign he/she is running.

>  Who cares if the GM is still in control
>of the character.

Those still in the universe do.  The GM, who is trying to maintain the
"order" of his created "scheme of things" (a little play on words, there),
of his Cosmos/World/Universe/Olam, cares.

The debate isn't about whether you care, but about whether the GM is in the
position of "god" in his universe.  The answer is "yes."  The PC is
powerless to alter anything about the universe unless the GM/god so allows
it.

How anyone can fail to see the parallel is beyond me.  The analogy of the
Ref being "god" has been used in RPG's since pre-D&D.  Only some PC(in this
case, politically-correct) newbie Ref (referring to the guy who wrote that
article that was quoted) would challenge such a fundamental description of
the role of the GM.

>   Anyone can create their own little universe to play
>by themselves and call themselves "God" or whatever.

But then that would be ANOTHER universe and being a "god" in THAT universe
would not give you the ability to AFFECT the first "god" 's universe.  Even
if you were such a grand Traveller "god" that you could change something
about the canonical rules, that doesn't mean that the "god" running a
universe has to incorporate those changes into his universe.

>  It is usually called dementia when adults do it.

And adults who are avid gamers are usually referred to as "geeks".  What's
your point?  Are we cracking on ourselves, now?

Isn't author of a sci-fi novel the "god" of that universe?  How can ANYONE
not see the parallel?
>-----
><Clif also posted:>
><P.S.:  The only reason they don't call "GM" 's "god" is to keep from
>offending the religious. In AD&D the DM often plays the role of the
>gods, so how can you say he/she IS NOT "god"?>
>
>So if I play the role of a god in a play or a movie does that make me a
>god?

I'm not saying that you are a TRUE "god" in the REAL WORLD.  C'mon, do you
really think I've been asserting that?  I'm only saying what has been said
all along with RPG's.  The GM is the god in the universe he/she creates.
The fact that players pander to a GM's needs in an effort to petition favor
and blessings upon their characters shows that the GM is "god" in the
universe in which the player's character finds itself.

>  I think the reason GM/DMs weren't called gods was to prevent
>delusions of grandeur.

I think that would be nipped in the bud as soon as the geek tried to invite
some swimsuit model to join in on a game.  Get real.

> The GM is much closer to a director, referee,
>and producer.

Wrong.  All of these people have to kiss somebody's ass, in the long run.  A
GM doesn't have to kiss anybody's ass in his universe.  Now in real life,
that's a different story.

>  If the GM has delusions of being a god, more than likely
>he will lose (or not find) some players because of it.

Pure crap.  I go into a game assuming that the Ref is playing the role of
"god."  All of my players have always assumed that.  It is ASSUMED, so no
big deal is made about it.  Sure, some dork can have sparks fly out of his
ears and climb onto the top of an Army barracks and yell, "I am god," but he
will soon have a reality check coming his way.

>  At the very
>least a GM that controls the actions of the players' characters will
>tick off a number of players.

It is done secretly (and even overtly) all of the time when a GM decides he
doesn't like the outcome of a die roll...  As long as the "overruling" is
beneficial to the character, the player doesn't complain.  Secondly, a
ticked off player doesn't control his character, anymore, as soon as he
walks away from the universe. SHOWING that the GM is "god" of that universe.
As respects the fictional world of the "god" 's universe, players are
expendable(since any player can play the character later, and a GM can take
up the role as an NPC meanwhile), but as respects a real life role-playing
game session, you NEED at least one player; otherwise, it is like writing
fiction (somewhat MPD) and not far from creative auto-sexuality.

Gamers wouldn't care one way or the other whether the GM was called "god" or
not.  In Army training, the O.C.'s (observer controller---geee... sounds
like a description of an all-seeing, all-powerful "god") carries a "GOD
gun".  Soldiers who frequently use the word "c-nt" when running in
formation, all to the education of kiddies on their way to school, don't
take offense to a big ass laser projector being called a "god gun".  The
"god gun" is used to blast a soldier or vehicle off the map with a powerful
laser beam if the Ref ("god") decides("overrules"--I'll say it, again--"OVER
rules") that the soldier/vehicle has put itself at ridiculous risk, whether
or not it was tagged by another soldier or vehicle's laser emitter according
to the rules.

The reason the GM isn't called "God" is for the same reason that you don't
find "Jehovah" [sic] in the Dieties and Demi-gods manual for AD&D.  Because
it would piss off some Christians!  In fact, Jehovah's Witnesses just won't
let AD&D win, putting the designers down for not including "Jehovah" in that
book, but if Gary Gygax HAD put "Jehovah" in that book, the J.W.'s would
have freaked out about a man playing "Jehovah"!  Gamers are damned if they
do, damned if they don't when touching the taboo topic of "god" or
"Jehovah".

That's why GM's are referred to as the "god" of the campaign only to those
who are being initiated.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:02:51 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

I don't agree.  The GM's job is mostly to present opposition.  Obstacles and
opposition that are then overcome deserve rewards, doled out by the GM.

A Coach is ALWAYS on the team's side and NEVER opposes his own team (unless
he is trying to end his career).  Even when he is dogging his team out in
practice, making them exhausted, it is so that they can win.

A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity.

No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).

A coach is ALWAYS on his team's side (otherwise, can he really be called a
"coach"), but a GM is the advocate of the opposition and the creator and
maintainer of his universe.  Failure to see this is beyond my comprehension.
>
>Coach.  I'm just the coach.  I come up with the plays, schedule the
>games, assign positions and even cut players sometimes.  But I want to
>see my players have fun and win a few.  I don't write the rules.  I
>let the dice or odds be referees.  I am there on approval.  If my
>players "win" more often than not, I'm a good coach.  If my plays OR
>my team fall apart then I'm going to get sacked.  Anything else IS a
>delusion.
>
Remind me not to play in your campaign... I'd get bored REAL QUICK!

- --Clif
>
>==
>------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>
>                      ICQ 31012781
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:04:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Hence, "NetForce" the other week.

- --Clif

>Trust me, 90% of the time when Hollywood mentions something of an advanced
>technical nature in a film, the get it dead wrong.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net  
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
>
>TravGeekCode: 
>tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>         
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:07:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Eraser Weapon

Now that makes sense.  By the way, the weapon in "Eraser", was it an
on-the-market gun that was dressed up, as usual with Hollywood, or was it a
prop created from scratch?

>Also, I believe the electomagnetic pulse was used to accelerate the
>projectile in Eraser, not to cause the damage - it is, in other words, a
>railgun anyway.
>
>Have A Nice Day.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:08:05 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Black Duke

Timothy Collinson wrote:

>I haven't seen a response to this, so I'll speak from the depths of my
>ignorance.
>
>To the very best of my knowledge and travels round the internet etc., I've
>never heard that this was published.
>
>I think I recall hearing somewhere that it may have got as far as a
>manuscript but was never published.  In which case Roger Sanger would be
>the man to contact about getting it published as he bought the rights to
>the DGP material.

"Black Duke" was never printed, but I have a copy of the outline that I
mined off the Internet from somewhere. I'll dig it up from my archives at
home and send it to the list.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:21:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>You know, I have used the expression "god" (little g) for years as a
>game master. I've never had a player get upset about it, and I have
>NEVER asked for offerings, sacrifices, or worship.

That doesn't mean, however, that you didn't get them.

>The acronym:
>(g)ame
>(o)perations
>(d)irector
>has always been a joke to my group of friends.
>The phrase "god" has always been used to signify the ability the referee
>has to make any changes in the world/universe as needed.
>
>People have been using phrases like DungeonMaster, GameMaster, Referee,
>and many others for years as well.
>
>The best thing to remember as a game master is that you are a "HOST".

You are HOST of a game in THE REAL WORLD.

>People are visiting your little world/universe you have created.

More precisely, players are participating in your game.  CHARACTERS are in
the little world/universe.

"Delusions" would be thinking you were actually existing in that universe,
though this is the effect we strive for as good GM's, isn't it?

>
>The fact is, the Game Master is in effect a demi-god, having the power
>to crush the characters in an instant if he chooses.

Demi-god only in that he/she is "god" in the universe, itself, and an
ordinary (?) human just like the players in the REAL WORLD.  Being able to
crush a personality out of existence would be the sign of a full "god",
also.  No need to demote him/her to "demi-god", unless you can show some
limitation of power that restrains the GM in his universe (I can't think of
one).  Again, a distinction between the universe and the real world must be
made.  I have, from the beginning, been speaking about the power of the GM
in his universe, though I did make mention of the fact that players give
unsolicited offerings (just like many religious "cheerful givers") to the
person of the GM in REAL LIFE so that 1) a game will go on --and-- 2)  the
characters might be blessed by the GM in HIS UNIVERSE.  No one can argue
that a GM is "god" in his universe when a character PRAYS to the "god" being
played by the GM and the GM responds verbally in the role of that "god".

> The difference
>between a good one and a bad one is that the players don't return to bad
>ones...
>

True, and a GM can assume the role of "god" and be a very good GM, just like
many of mine have been, UNDER the assumption that they were "god" of their
universe.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:22:55 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Eraser Weapon

I think I saw somewhere that it was created from scratch.  Under all the
cosmetic crap, I don't recognize anything.  Closest thing in bulkiness is a
Barret Light (yeah, right) 50 and it's definately not one of those.  I'm
pretty sure myself that it's from scratch.

Jesse D.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Eraser Weapon


>Now that makes sense.  By the way, the weapon in "Eraser", was it an
>on-the-market gun that was dressed up, as usual with Hollywood, or was it a
>prop created from scratch?
>
>>Also, I believe the electomagnetic pulse was used to accelerate the
>>projectile in Eraser, not to cause the damage - it is, in other words, a
>>railgun anyway.
>>
>>Have A Nice Day.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:34:10 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of grandeur

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't agree.  The GM's job is mostly to present opposition.  Obstacles and
opposition that are then overcome deserve rewards, doled out by the GM.

A Coach is ALWAYS on the team's side and NEVER opposes his own team (unless
he is trying to end his career).  Even when he is dogging his team out in
practice, making them exhausted, it is so that they can win.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take a rethink at what constitutes "winning" in a role-playing game.
This isn't a game like football, checkers or chess - there isn't a game-
defined goal that means victory for your team, defeat for the other side.

In a role-playing game, you either "win" by having fun, or you lose by
not having fun. 

If a GM sees his players as opposition to be beaten, he won't keep
any players long if they know what they're missing. A GM can "win"
whenever he chooses, simply by bringing on the bad guys until the
good guys drop. 

Now, the "Coach" analogy...the GM is trying to make sure he and the
players all win by having fun. The "opposition" are a bunch of numbers
on a piece of paper - the opposition can't have any fun.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity.

No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's part of the fun. The GM has to balance the opposition against what
makes sense (to aid suspension of disbelief) and what makes things
interesting. 

I've seen players go through defeats, pyrrhic victories and even deaths
while having the time of their lives...Carter Blackmoor (in my Justice, Inc.
pulps campaign) lost his life facing down an ultimate evil, and the player
saw it as a climactic end to a career of adventure. 

(The bit where Carter looked down from above afterwards, wondering what 
came next...and a polite gentleman in a white suit came up and said, "Hello 
Mr. Blackmoor. We've been quite impressed with your investigations. Would 
you be interested in taking a few cases for us?"  Carter thought for a
moment, and asked, "Would I get wings?"  "We'll talk about it..." ...as
Carter and his new associate walked off through gathering clouds of white..
OK, we were in a 30's cinematic adventure campaign at the time, it seemed
appropriate. (:  )

Cliff again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A coach is ALWAYS on his team's side (otherwise, can he really be called a
"coach"), but a GM is the advocate of the opposition and the creator and
maintainer of his universe.  Failure to see this is beyond my comprehension.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A GM can advocate his NPC's and his universe all day long, and it
won't make a game worth playing in. How much fun would Star Wars
have been if Darth Vader had a copy of "Becoming an Evil Overlord"?
(see http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/overlord.html )

The story and the player interaction are more important than anything
in the GM's universe.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:53:53 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Alas, the better the genetic repair mechanism, the slower 
the rate at which species change. Evolution gets slowed 
*way* down."

	Good point, but it is actually the rate of mutation
	that is important. Even with a better genetic repair
	mechanism, the mutation rate may be similar to ours 
	if the environment is nasty enough.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:55:51 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Starships

Gentles,

Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We will not be able to fill
the book with deckplans, and there is still time to be reasobably flexible
with the outline, so I wanted to get ideas from the fans...

Please reply directly yo lkw@io.com as I still can't read the TML digests.

Thanks



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:03:08 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Call for proposals

Gentlebeings:

I am looking for proposals to write the following GURPS Traveller books:

Navy (need ms by 1 July 99), Army (including Imperial Marines), Alien Races
III (Hiver & Droyne), Alien Races IV (Minor Races), and Solomani Rim. I
need to contract these products by the end of the month -- due dates would
be negotiable, but I'd like to get them in house here by August or
September (get a bunch in the pipeline at the same time and start
benefitting by economies of scale). Please note that some people have
already enquired about some or all of these titles, but the none of the are
closed out yet.

Contact me for details opf how to submit a proposal:

LKW@io.com



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:07:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

For the most part I agree with your post.

I just wanted to add some things...


>Typically, there seems to be two types of GMs:  those
that allow PC influence on the world, and those who don't.

No happy mediums?

First, how you view a "god" comes into play...  Do you believe that a "god"
can be benevolent AND stern?

Second, a good GM allows players to "REALISTICALLY" effect change in his
universe.  A Zero Level Forest Gump just MIGHT be able to make a small
change for the better in his world.  A Duchess might be able to effect
significant changes in her domain, at least until she dies.

And that is another point, life in an RPG shouldn't be all that different
from life in the real world.  As long as some form of immortality isn't
bestowed upon the PC, they should eventually see the signs of aging in their
skin, hair, weight, and should feel the urgency of making a mark in the
universe in which he lives.  Most people will be forgotten as the sands of
history cover them up.  Some people will be fortunate enough to become a
footnote in a classical work.  Others will take up a whole paragraph in a
history book.  In the long run, most of us affect the world we live in
insignificantly.  But while the PC still has breath and a pistol in his
hands or knowledge in his mind, the potential is there.  A good "god"
doesn't deny this, but he doesn't make a character Emperor of the Imperium
just so that they can be in a position to effect real change that soon will
become another page in history, too.

If "true to life", a PC's goals will become our goals and the same goals had
by all of the ancients.  "Get the things we want."  Have a home, find the
mate of our dreams(or, at least, one we will settle for), live in peace,
make children, age gracefully.  Most adventurers are of the "Rage, rage,
against the dying of the light" school and see little satisfaction in a
normal life, but that is because players don't immerse themselves in the
offered world and consider the consequences of the decisions before them.
Happiness can be right under a character's nose while they are thinking it
is to be had at the next world.  It would be refreshing if some PC would
respond like Han Solo under Jabba's gun, saying, in effect, "Going after the
death star is madness" and thinking, "If I don't pay Jabba back, soon, my
ass is grass."  True, he came back to help, but when had this smuggler ever
been so on top of the game?  The Death Star, Princess Leia, a whiny boy, a
couple of droids, a crazy old fool, and a dude in black armour had all of a
sudden made his life significant.

That "Star Wars" story I read on here was appreciated.  For once, the
StormTroopers were presented as the trained troops they would be, not the
"can't hit the side of a barn" greenies that the movies make them out to be.
The United States Army might be incompetent, but given the same mission,
your average civilian would be even MORE incompetent.

I've wondered if players shouldn't put an admission fee into the pot, along
with the GM's reward, all as a deterrent, so that players will FEEL the
pain.  All players who survive to the end of the adventure would get a cut
of the pot.  Maybe then players wouldn't go sauntering into a hail of
fireflies as if it was Disney World.


>On the other hand, there are those GMs that allow the players to
influence the game's outcome, and the milieu.  Most of these GMs
support a more congenial, reactive GMing style referred to on this
list as the "GM as CEO" style.  I prefer to game with this type of
GM, myself, as I, the player, feel like I have the capacity to change
the world (if even a little bit), and to accomplish something I've
set out to do.

A good "god" GM will permit this, also.  A good "god" GM would be a mixture
of the deist ("I've created the world, now I'll walk away and leave it be")
god and the all-powerful, present-everywhere, all-seeing god.  Homer seemed
to have the formula down, except for the oft appearances of these "gods",
which wouldn't fit well in a sci-fi campaign.

>And if a player leaves the group, a sore GM can do whatever they want
to the character, that doesn't change the fact that, in the player's
eye, the GM didn't run a quality game.

True, but it still stands that the GM is "god" in that universe.  It
recently happened to me.  The DM who boasted about this all-important "epic
quest" killed us, all 6 characters, off TWICE.  He did it a 3rd time AFTER I
quit.  Still, I never denied that he was "god" in his epic quest's universe.


>All in all, IMHO, a good GM serves a variety of roles.  He is a
storyteller,

It is said of the Judeo-Christian creator that he inspired the Bible, which
contains many stories.

> in that he presents the milieu and its many varied
inhabitants to his players in an entertaining manner.  He is an
arbitrator, for his is the final decision on rules interpretations
and scenario management.

The Judeo-Christian creator is called a Law-giver.

>  He is an organizer, in that he keeps and
presents the information produced for and by the players.

He is thought to keep the universe in order, since He is said to have
created it.

>  He is a
entertainer, for the fun of gaming is one of my ultimate reasons for
RPGing.

Animals can be very entertaining.  If you're an optimist, life can be
entertaining.  If you have a dark sense of humour, observing the human race
can be entertaining.  All these things are said to originate with the
Judeo-Christian creator.

>  He is an adversary, but only from the viewpoint of
realistically portraying enemy tactics in specific situations.

"Satan" is said to originate from the Judeo-Christian creator and the
"fallen state" of man is the result of a curse pronounced by the same
creator.  Israel, the race, is said to "wrestle with god".  Isra EL
(EL="god"/"mighty one").

>  And
ultimately, he is a Master of the Game (the session, not his
players), for he fulfills these roles to the best of his ability,
demonstrating his aptitude for handling the gaming session, the
milieu and the players' enjoyment while still having a good time
himself.

The Judeo-Christian creator is referred to as the Master of the Universe.

I say all of this only to demonstrate that these "roles" are all roles of a
"god."


>I think the best piece of advice I've ever heard from a gamer, GM or
PC, is: "Remember, no matter how much fun you're having or how much
crap you're putting up with, one thing remains constant:  in the long
run, it's just a piece of paper.  So let it go and just have fun!"

Lots of actors would never get any work if they treated scripts so
trivially.  I believe in REALLY ROLE-PLAYING, not just die-rolling.  I
believe that you must invest yourself in your character until he/she is
dead; otherwise, you haven't been "realistic."

A good player will be good to his character and try to help his character
succeed and fulfill his needs.  This might include trying to get your
character "laid" or married.  I believe that a player should play his
character's WHOLE person.  I believe that a player should begin to feel
"regrets" for things left undone as he ages.

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #133
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 134



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Delusions of grandeur
Re: Delusions of grandeur
A World without Death
re: GMing philosophy
re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)
re: Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Laser fire
RE:Alien biology question...
re: A World Without Death
Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
Re: GMing Philosophy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:17:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Delusions of grandeur

- ---Clif opined:
> No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and
then, there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting<

The Stainless Steel Rat series was exciting, even though the main
character survived.  Some of Star Wars was interesting, but the most
anyone ever lost was a hand.  Some people even enjoyed Asimov's Robot
stories, notwithstanding the fact that R. Daneel lived on for
centuries. 

I expect my players to invest a lot of themselves into their
characters.  I punish stupidity at times, but with every trial I allow
there is a way of escape.  When I play the opposition I play hard. 
When I think up problems I make them hard.  Sometimes a small mistake
can cause a loss of rewards.  But I am not infallible.  I allow
argument from players who feel that something was unfair.  Hard is
rewarding and fun.  Harsh is unnecessary.

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:42:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of grandeur

>Take a rethink at what constitutes "winning" in a role-playing game.
>This isn't a game like football, checkers or chess - there isn't a game-
>defined goal that means victory for your team, defeat for the other side.
>
>In a role-playing game, you either "win" by having fun, or you lose by
>not having fun.
>
>If a GM sees his players as opposition to be beaten, he won't keep
>any players long if they know what they're missing.

Did I say they were all to be beaten?  No!  But if you don't present serious
"danger", players will get bored knowing that they can get away with
anything...

> A GM can "win"
>whenever he chooses, simply by bringing on the bad guys until the
>good guys drop.

Duhhh!  Obviously, I wasn't advocating killing off all the players...  I
specifically said (probably in another post) "kill or disable".  Players
need to see one of their group put in the ground every now and then.


>
>Now, the "Coach" analogy...the GM is trying to make sure he and the
>players all win by having fun. The "opposition" are a bunch of numbers
>on a piece of paper - the opposition can't have any fun.

Personally, I find "fun" in a realistic universe, where actions and
decisions have consequences and where somebody dies when they go they
waltzing into a heated firefight.  Anything else is Monty Haul, in my
opinion, and will quickly bore me.

>
>Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
>NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
>battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity?
>
>No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
>there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
>have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>It's part of the fun. The GM has to balance the opposition against what
>makes sense (to aid suspension of disbelief) and what makes things
>interesting.
>
Of course.  Did I say something to contradict any of that?

>I've seen players go through defeats, pyrrhic victories and even deaths
>while having the time of their lives.

YES!  Okay, I agree!

>..Carter Blackmoor (in my Justice, Inc.
>pulps campaign) lost his life facing down an ultimate evil, and the player
>saw it as a climactic end to a career of adventure.

YES!  "That's the Spirit!"  --Rutger Hauer in "The Blade Runner"
>
>(The bit where Carter looked down from above afterwards, wondering what
>came next...and a polite gentleman in a white suit came up and said, "Hello
>Mr. Blackmoor. We've been quite impressed with your investigations. Would
>you be interested in taking a few cases for us?"  Carter thought for a
>moment, and asked, "Would I get wings?"  "We'll talk about it..." ...as
>Carter and his new associate walked off through gathering clouds of white..
>OK, we were in a 30's cinematic adventure campaign at the time, it seemed
>appropriate. (:  )
>

LOL!  Funny.

>Cliff again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A coach is ALWAYS on his team's side (otherwise, can he really be called a
>"coach"), but a GM is the advocate of the opposition and the creator and
>maintainer of his universe.  Failure to see this is beyond my
comprehension.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A GM can advocate his NPC's and his universe all day long, and it
>won't make a game worth playing in. How much fun would Star Wars
>have been if Darth Vader had a copy of "Becoming an Evil Overlord"?
>(see http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/overlord.html )

I don't care if he got inspiration from "The Twelve Caesars"...  If he was
more diabolical defeating him would be more exciting.
>
>The story and the player interaction are more important than anything
>in the GM's universe.

True, but the players have to have something and someone to interact with.
>
>Walt Smith
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:51:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: A World without Death

Combat and war are said to be harsh.  They should be dangerous.

That's so obvious that I don't see why I am even having to say it.

- --Clif

P.S.:  That the characters all made it through without injury shows that if
the books were based on an RPG session, they made good die rolls.

James Bond 007, as invincible as he is, often faces setbacks and sees his
compatriots get wasted.  (In the books).  How many Bond movies are there and
how many Star Wars movies are there?  Didn't Obi-Wan bite the big
lightsabre?  Didn't some Eewoks eat laser in Return of the Jedi?  Didn't
Biggs kiss Death Star in Star Wars?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 1:28 PM
Subject: re: Delusions of grandeur


>---Clif opined:
>> No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and
>then, there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting<
>
>The Stainless Steel Rat series was exciting, even though the main
>character survived.  Some of Star Wars was interesting, but the most
>anyone ever lost was a hand.  Some people even enjoyed Asimov's Robot
>stories, notwithstanding the fact that R. Daneel lived on for
>centuries.
>
>I expect my players to invest a lot of themselves into their
>characters.  I punish stupidity at times, but with every trial I allow
>there is a way of escape.  When I play the opposition I play hard.
>When I think up problems I make them hard.  Sometimes a small mistake
>can cause a loss of rewards.  But I am not infallible.  I allow
>argument from players who feel that something was unfair.  Hard is
>rewarding and fun.  Harsh is unnecessary.
>
>==
>------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>
>                      ICQ 31012781
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:55:48 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: GMing philosophy

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've wondered if players shouldn't put an admission fee into the pot, along
with the GM's reward, all as a deterrent, so that players will FEEL the
pain.  All players who survive to the end of the adventure would get a cut
of the pot.  Maybe then players wouldn't go sauntering into a hail of
fireflies as if it was Disney World.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
GM's reward? Admission fee?

No offense, Clif, but...

This has got to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard for running a
game group.

If your game isn't interesting enough that players want to survive 'till the
end already, you've got more problems with it than a pot of money
will fix - and enough problems that it'll be overpriced at free, much less
with an admission fee.

I'm imagining the Pilot character getting ready to launch the escape
ship, right before the space station explodes. "Wait for us, Ricky!! We'll
be aboard in two minutes, plenty of time!!". Ricky thinks a minute, the
player looks at the pot of money, and says, "Launch!"

Best way to get a bunch of die-rolling back-stabbing minimaxed
munchkins I've ever seen, though...was that what you were aiming for?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:10:52 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Duhhh!  Obviously, I wasn't advocating killing off all the players...  I
specifically said (probably in another post) "kill or disable".  Players
need to see one of their group put in the ground every now and then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why? To put them in their place? To prove to them that the GM is in
charge? You can kill a PC whenever you want to. Are you rolling dice,
or creating a story?

A warning: campaigns are like guard monsters, they work best when
hungry. Kill one PC, it's an event. Kill a dozen, the deaths become
meaningless. I'm not saying the campaign world has to be safe as an
amusement park ride, but you get very different games when you're not
running a slaughterhouse for PC's.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Personally, I find "fun" in a realistic universe, where actions and
decisions have consequences and where somebody dies when they go they
waltzing into a heated firefight.  Anything else is Monty Haul, in my
opinion, and will quickly bore me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been running Champions and Justice Inc. off and on for more than
a decade. In all that time, I've killed TWO player characters. There are
more than two dozen people who would make a pizza run stark naked 
to get a seat in my games - because they found the games interesting.

Even the Call of Cthulu games I've played in (only game with higher
casualty rate: Paranoia) managed to make deaths an event, if nothing
else than because our GM managed to give some reality to NPC's
before she offed them...you could have a known character die and not
have it be a player. Of course, we lost player characters by the boatload
as well...but she had more methods than PC death to scare us with.
After all, once you've killed your victim, you can't scare them anymore....

Decisions should have consequences. The average man survives the
average military action, even if he's on the losing side. The average
combat casualty is injured, not killed. The average result of a barfight
is stitches, not the grave. If you have to put characters in the ground
to make a point, you've got work to do.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:42:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)

 "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com> wrote:

>The Islands Clusters aren't part of the Domain of Deneb; they don't belong
>to the Imperium at all. The Regency conquered them to prevent their being
>used as a jump-off point for Virus, and even then the conquerors weren't
>too happy to be there.

Sorry, but the Domain of Deneb astrographically contains Reft Sector, in
which the Islands lie. The Imperium may nit have occupied them up to MT,
but they are within the Domain's boundary. Like that small African State in
the middle of South Africa whose name escapes me...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:59:41 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Fw: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

"Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> wrote:

<1 line of content>

>All too true...
<snip of 18 lines of irrelevant requote from Outlook as a guess>
>>>You did it in that ship?  You're braver than I thought!
>>>Damien Fox
>>...who doesn't look anywhere near as good as Princess Leia, even with her
>>Cinammon Bun hairdo.  : )
>> Clif

- ----

Why not try something like the text below? I'm posting this generally
because this is something which is happening more and more. Take a little
time, waste a little less bandwith  and be nice ;-)

- --------------
Cliff wrote:

>>>You did it in that ship?  You're braver than I thought!
>>>Damien Fox
>>...who doesn't look anywhere near as good as Princess Leia, even with her
>>Cinammon Bun hairdo.  : )

All too true...
- ---------------

Dom (again not aiming this at anyone, but getting fed up of the lousy
formatting and unnecessary reposts).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:07:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:


>  Please be patient, Comrade Prior - the housing authorities are still
>considering your application for a domicile and job in Lotusland*.
>It might be observed that your usefulness to the Traveller Socialist
>Conspiracy (and society at large, I suppose) would be expanded were you
>to make your RPG software available for platforms other than those used
>by small reactionary cliques.

Hmm - that's be the small reactionary cliques who are writing material for
Traveller like the 101 books?

Dom ;-)

Power Macintosh 6400/200 MacOS 8.5
PowerBook190 MacOS 7.5.2
PURPLE iMac G3/266 real soon....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:51:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

>Good Lord did I see it in an old issue of Challenge and didn't buy
>it?!?!?!?!?!?  Anyone have page references / issue #'s so I can do a sanity
>check?

Haven't got them to hand, sorry, they're MIA.

The RSB has a fleeting reference on pg41.

BTC has a passing reference on p84 and some more in the side bars...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:08:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Laser fire

Would the ionisation trail from a laser show on RADAR?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:30:33 -0600
From: "Benada, Rob" <BenadaR@mycogen.com>
Subject: RE:Alien biology question...

>This race is, for lack of a better term, extremely resistant to radiation.
>What kind of biological processes would endow a race with such resistance?
>BTW, the world that they live on is highl radioactive...thus the need...
[snip]
>Some genetic level "repairing" process, to help fix the denaturing due to
>radiation?...

There was an article a few weeks back in Science News [Dec 12, 1998 vol.
154 p376 "Meet the Superbug"] that talked about bacterium D. radiodurans
that could thrive after exposures to 1.5 MILLION rads. (3+ million if
cold or frozen.) It essentially had the ability to reassemble it's DNA
from the Radiation blasted fragments. It is intrusting to ponder exactly
how such a life form could evolve on earth. 

The article did posit a answer: Dehydration resistance. Dehydration
generates the same type of DNA damage as irradiation. Furthermore the
same bacteria has been found in hot springs. 

The bug's has several repair mechanisms: A protein that can repair
double strand breaks; It keeps 4 to 10 full copies of it's genome in
each microbe; and some system of double checking the backups. 

The article is standard Science News fare: not too technical, yet with
some meat. 

Snork
- -
Snorkey - Remember, a rested mind is Not a fevered mind.
snorkey@macol.net
http://www.macol.net/~snorkey/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:28:05 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A World Without Death

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Combat and war are said to be harsh.  They should be dangerous.

That's so obvious that I don't see why I am even having to say it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OK Clif, come on by to my place, we'll play Traveller. The first time your
scout ship comes out of jumpspace, I'll have a corsair vaporize it.
That's fair, there's no way your scout ship could stand up to a 400tn
corsair. And it's not my problem, there are corsairs in that system in
my game universe, my job is to make sure the corsairs are happy...
I'm the GM, I'm supposed to root for the opposition, remember?

You'd quit that game as soon as you realized I was running it to shoot
at player characters instead of to run a game.

Cliff again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
James Bond 007, as invincible as he is, often faces setbacks and sees his
compatriots get wasted.  (In the books).  How many Bond movies are there and
how many Star Wars movies are there?  Didn't Obi-Wan bite the big
lightsabre?  Didn't some Eewoks eat laser in Return of the Jedi?  Didn't
Biggs kiss Death Star in Star Wars?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here's a little game my friends and I often play while watching a movie.
It's called, "Spot the NPC."

It's usually pretty easy to do. Watch the movie, and try to figure out
(if the movie were a game session) which characters are PC's and which 
ones are not. 

All the Ewoks. All the X-Wing pilots, except Luke Skywalker. Everyone in 
every James Bond flick except Bond and (sometimes) his love interest.
All the Marines in _Aliens_, except Hicks. All NPC's. Hmmm, see how
many of these people died in the movies?

Characters who get murdered by the bad guys without contributing much
to the plot besides their murder (vengeance reason for PC's!) are
probably NPC's. Characters who move the plot along by telling other
characters what to do (rather than doing it themselves) are probably
NPC's. 

The guy in charge is often an NPC, unless he goes through significant
character development. A guy who dies heroically at a climactic moment
is usually a PC, unless he's a sidekick giving his life to save the heroes
(and even then he could be a PC).

I've even seen movies where the main character was an NPC...for example,
the second and third Star Wars movies. I believe that Darth Vader was
the main character in those movies, his actions and eventual redemption
were the main line and everything else was a reaction to it.

Spot the NPC...fun for the whole family!!

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:31:03 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat Tender scans needed

Man I know that feeling!!!
I'm beginning to realize that my "good sized collection" I used to have 
was only a good sized dent...
:(
Roger


>
>Traveller CD???  Is that the HIWG CD that I've seen mentioned?  Don't 
have
>it :(  You know, it's kinda' funny.  I USED to think that I had a LOT 
of
>Traveller stuff.  Then I joined the TML........
>
>:)
>
>Jesse DeGraff
>
>
>
>>They are on the the traveller CD.
>>
>>You must have it surely?
>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:42:10 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>
>That doesn't mean, however, that you didn't get them.

Actually, I have been accused of favoring my current girlfriends, but 
that was never proven. (Back to that offering thing...)
<bg>

>You are HOST of a game in THE REAL WORLD.

True, unless you have a really good wife!


>
>"Delusions" would be thinking you were actually existing in that 
universe,
>though this is the effect we strive for as good GM's, isn't it?

To a point. I have never tried to make the players (not the characters) 
feel the heat wash of a plasma gun.
:)



>Demi-god only in that he/she is "god" in the universe, itself, and an
>ordinary (?) human just like the players in the REAL WORLD. 

Okay, I missed something here. Maybe I don't get the two confused or 
something.  I haven't met too many people who do. (Except the 
occaisional AD&D players I used to encounter at a few conventions...)



 Being able to
>crush a personality out of existence would be the sign of a full "god",
>also.  No need to demote him/her to "demi-god", unless you can show 
some
>limitation of power that restrains the GM in his universe (I can't 
think of
>one).  

If the player takes his character sheet and goes home.
:)



>
>> The difference
>>between a good one and a bad one is that the players don't return to 
bad
>>ones...
>>
>
>True, and a GM can assume the role of "god" and be a very good GM, just 
like
>many of mine have been, UNDER the assumption that they were "god" of 
their
>universe.


I think overall we agree.
I never wonder if I'll see a Free Trader flying over my office building, 
although thanks to Jesse, i have one on my screen!
:)
Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:40:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

Clif wrote:
> 
> Combat and war are said to be harsh.  They should be dangerous.
> 
> That's so obvious that I don't see why I am even having to say it.
> 
> --Clif
> 
> P.S.:  That the characters all made it through without injury shows that if
> the books were based on an RPG session, they made good die rolls.

I think the point is that RPG's tend towards the cinematic, rather than
the realistic as they are presumed to be escapist fun, not real-life
models of life as other people.

The PC's in most games are expected to be the James Bonds and Luke
Skywalkers of the game. As a GM, I have killed off player characters
before, but I make every possible allowance up to and including
completely disregarding the rolls and rules to keep the PC's alive. 

It's the nature of the game and is really dependent on the players own
personalities. Some people get really attached to their characters, even
though the players may be inexperienced and get their PC's into
untenable situations. They're having fun, which is the whole point.
Other people don't have a problem with their characters dying, so it's
less of a problem there.

What I have found happening with GM's who play the realistic 'War and
combat kills...life sucks...deal with it' kind of game end up selecting
for players who deal with creating new characters all the time or find
ways of playing without doing combat.

They lose the players who want a more cinematic kind of experience.

I've never had a surplus of players, so I tended to make it harder for
the characters to die.

OTOH, I also naturally play a more cinematic kind of game...the PC's in
my games tend to get caught up in the grand conflicts sweeping their
worlds/universes. Using realistic rules, they'd be re-rolling characters
about every other session.

IMHO, IMTU and YMMV!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:42:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

Clif wrote:
> For the most part I agree with your post.

Thank you.

[The rest snipped for bandwidth.]

Then as I understand it, you are proposing that the use of the term 
"god" in reference to GMing is in relation to his ability to be the 
final arbitrator on the milieu/campaign he is running, and _within 
that context_, he is all-powerful.  And also that within the context 
of the campaign, there are none higher.  Under that definition and 
that context, I will say, yes, he is all of that.  The GM always has 
the last say in any gaming situation, even if it's "You're right.  It 
should be that way," or "Screw you!  My world, my rules!" or even 
"Yes, Dear.  You kill him.  Uh, does this mean I don't have to sleep 
on the couch tonight?"  :)

A good GM, whether he is a self-styled "god" control freak or an 
overly-generous "Monty Haul" storyteller, or a more balanced 
medium between each, allows PCs to make some changes (however small, 
however realistic) in the game world, over time and with appropriate 
effort.  I believe that, whatever semantics may be applied to my 
statement, that we agree on this.

Now the following is just my opinion, but I've had bad experiences 
with GMs who call themselves "gods" over their games, who railroad 
their players, and who run games for no one else's entertainment but 
their own.  That's why I have a knee-jerk reaction to those who call 
themselves "gods" while running games.  I've always viewed the GM as 
the Master of the Game, who runs a game with knowledge, skill and 
intent.  The better ones generally, *generally*, don't call 
themselves "gods," while the less mature or developed GMs tend, 
*tend*,  to do so.  My experience, YMMV.

(BTW, this has nothing to do with GMs who are portraying the roles of 
Gods in their FRPGs.  That's a role usually portrayed by the GM, and 
as such, is outside the scope of this discussion.  Shouldn't be used 
to support either approach to this discussion.)

I, too, believe in Role-Playing over ROLL-Playing.  However, I've
gamed in situations where the rules became a point of contention
between players and/or players and the GM, and that ruined my fun. 
Remembering that the character is a ultimately a piece of paper is
reminding myself that I'm here to play a game and have fun, not
argue and watch my blood pressure skyrocket.

To me, it's a reminder _to_ Role-Play, and to work within the
mechanics used by the GM to accomplish that.  It's a level of
detachment that gives me more freedom to play a character my way.  I
learned it from playing with some under-developed GMs who were
intimidated by players that know the rules, milieu, and gaming better
than they do, and want to strike back at the (to them) offending
player.  After all, what's the worst a GM can ever do to my
character?  Kill it?  Change its stats?  Tell me I can't play him
anymore?  These things matter little to me over the portrayal 
of my concept of the character, and this approach gives me the 
latitude to pursue my character concept as far as the GM allows.  
(Yes, another statement here that supports your "GM as god" stance.)  
And if the GM insists on racking such changes upon the character that 
the stats can no longer support my concept, I can let that piece of 
paper go and start over with another concept and another set of 
stats.  Again, it works for me.  YMMV.

The rest of your statements generally support our mutual viewpoint,
as defined within the context of the GM's _capacities_ within his
campaign.  Within that context, yes; beyond that context, well,
let's just say it takes two to tango, or to game in this case, and
just leave it at that.

Thanks for the feedback and the opportunity to clarify my 
points.  Hope everyone has an enjoyable weekend!

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #134
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 135



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alien biology question...
re: Delusions of grandeur
Re: Alien biology question  LONG
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: GMing Philosophy...
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
Re: Laser fire
Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #134
A Seat In The Game...
Alien Module 7 - Hivers
re: A Seat in the Game
Re: Starships
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: A World without Death
Re: Starships
Armor list query
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: delusions of grandeur (long)
IMTU / TravGeek code for psionics
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:41:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Alas, the better the genetic repair mechanism, the slower the rate at
> which species change. Evolution gets slowed *way* down.
> 

Except under much higer rates of potential genetic damage...in this case
I think it evens out.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:45:23 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Delusions of grandeur

>The story and the player interaction are more important than anything
>in the GM's universe.
>
>Walt Smith



Geez Walt, if you had put this at the top, I wouldn't have had to read 
so far to decide I agree with you.

The goal is to have fun. End of story. (Or is it the beginning?)
Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:18:46 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question  LONG

Ian wrote:

>          But then, DNA is not the only genetic material here on
>         Terra (RNA is used in some viruses). Perhaps your race
>         relies on a "sturdier" molecule to encode genetic
>         information. Proteins? Polysaccharides? Nylon? I need
>         a chemist here.
>

Let's see: Proteins aren't a good choice (always, take in count this is what science
says today about why we are made like we are made) because they are very reactive (they
are catalysts for most of our body chemical reactions) and stability is a good thing to
look at when you want a molecule to hold information. But the good thing about proteind
is that can be made of (here in Earth) 20 aminoacids, sixteen more kinds of molecules
than our DNA, so it takes less space to hold the same information.

This is a double sided blade, because the tree base genetic code we have allows for
some redundancy that minimizes errors (i read an article on a journal that showed that
our genetic code is the best in one million when reducing single base mutations/errors
effects), and if the same info is to be encoded in just an aminoacid then ANY single
aminoacid change will cange the information held. And, if you store your information in
proteins, to what effector molecule do you translate that information, other than
proteins? That would imply another  kind of biomolecule, different from proteins, to be
used as the effector...too much work for me ;)


Let's see polysaccharides : hmm, they sure can store information, because not only
there are lots of them (different monosaccharides), but they can be polymerisated in a
large amount of combinations (always one reductor group with one alcohol group, and
there are 4 or more alcohol groups in a single monosaccharide).

So this makes the number of combinations between two single monosaccharides a large
group (not like proteins, that are assembled one amino group with one carboxi of the
next aminoacid, and aminoacid have usually one of these groups, with some exceptions:
lysine, arginine, aspartic acid and glutamic acid) and this makes easy to reduce space
(more info can be stored in less space).

But then, the reading molecules that translate this information to an effector molecule
(let's say proteins, why not?) have to be very efficient and complex to recongnize such
a large amount of combinations, and take the right "conclusions" of each combination.
Too complex, but i like it. Maybe some restrictions could be imposed to what
combinations could be made, because that information holding molecule has to be long,
and some of the combinations would not allow that, so if we finally get a short number
of combinations to be made with a reduced number of monosaccharides, this can be
do-able.

I think i'll put a LONG word to the subject...i cannot let my (biochemist student's)
mind wander this way  ;)

- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:50:52 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

>>Good Lord did I see it in an old issue of Challenge and didn't buy
>>it?!?!?!?!?!?  Anyone have page references / issue #'s so I can do a sanity
>>check?

I'll try and find it for ya when I get home from work. I don't have the
magazine anymore, but I may indeed have the pages in question -- I wrote a
short story for a creative writing class in college based on that area of
the Imperium.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:52:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Roger Barr wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Geez Walt, if you had put this at the top, I wouldn't have had to read 
so far to decide I agree with you.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now what fun would that have been? Getting someone to agree with me
without even getting to argue at him?  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:55:58 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

I'm the author of the games I run. Boy, do my character surprise me
sometimes! ;-)

ObTrav: Does that IMTU rating have a code for hard science v. space opera?
It should.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:54:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

Clif wrote:
> 
> Do you have any URL's for that Daisy .50 bolt-action sniper rifle that I
> thought the SF was using.

Ask and ye shall recieve:

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/daisy.htm


that site has a lot of different links. Back up to the guns and big
directories
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:56:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Laser fire

SD Mooney writes:
> Would the ionisation trail from a laser show on RADAR?
>
Briefly.  Similar to lightning or meteors.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:05:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"

You must not have seen the reply I sent later.  I did actually have the
issue, it was just buried in old stuff out in the garage.  It is a cool
article!  Thanks anyway!!!!
Jesse D.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: SM's "Bermuda Triangle"


>>>Good Lord did I see it in an old issue of Challenge and didn't buy
>>>it?!?!?!?!?!?  Anyone have page references / issue #'s so I can do a
sanity
>>>check?
>
>I'll try and find it for ya when I get home from work. I don't have the
>magazine anymore, but I may indeed have the pages in question -- I wrote a
>short story for a creative writing class in college based on that area of
>the Imperium.
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:14:26 -0600
From: Jennie Harder <jharder@blc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #134

Please remove my e-mail address from your server. Thank you very much.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:13:27 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: A Seat In The Game...

> I've been running Champions and Justice Inc. off and on for more
> than a decade. In all that time, I've killed TWO player
> characters. There are more than two dozen people who would make a
> pizza run stark naked to get a seat in my games - because they
> found the games interesting. 

Now, that's a tough "entrance exam" just to get in a gaming group!  
Your games must be awesome!  ;^P

Seriously, I know what you mean.  I used to have people drive 220 
mile round trips every week for over two years just to play in my old 
AD&D games.  (Not a lot with the PBEM stuff going on now, but I was 
impressed, and felt quite pressured, at the time.)

Sure wish it had been Traveller, though.

Keep on Travellin',
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:15:35 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Alien Module 7 - Hivers

Hello all - 
Does any one have a copy of this book that they either wish to sell or
could make a photocopy of? I have a sudden need for this and, naturally
enough, that is the only one of the 8 that I _don't_ own.

TIA,

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:37:42 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A Seat in the Game

Jason Kemp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, that's a tough "entrance exam" just to get in a gaming group!  
Your games must be awesome!  ;^P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
GM lessons available, $100 an hour, cash in advance and no refunds. :)

Jason again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seriously, I know what you mean.  I used to have people drive 220 
mile round trips every week for over two years just to play in my old 
AD&D games.  (Not a lot with the PBEM stuff going on now, but I was 
impressed, and felt quite pressured, at the time.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The pressure is significant. Several of my old friends are coming up
next month for a gaming convention in my town (O-Con X), they are
begging me to run a game. I have this feeling that, with a hundred
plus gamers running dozens of games, it's entirely up to me whether
these half-dozen friends of mine have a good time at the con or not.

Ah, the pitfalls of fame....<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:46:31 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 11:55 AM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Gentles,
>
>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We will not be able to fill
>the book with deckplans, and there is still time to be reasobably flexible
>with the outline, so I wanted to get ideas from the fans...
>
>Please reply directly yo lkw@io.com as I still can't read the TML digests.
>
>Thanks
>
>
>

The Jump ship from Fighting ships would be my first choice.  It is unique
enough to be very interesting and would make a good PC ship.  Please include
the module for the towing system as part of the discription.  Also one ship
of each diferent size class would be good too.  A dreadnaught, cruiser,
destoyer/escort, frigete, carrier, spy ship, and a purpose built system
raider/pirate ship.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:46:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Benada, Rob wrote:
> 

> There was an article a few weeks back in Science News [Dec 12, 1998 vol.
> 154 p376 "Meet the Superbug"] that talked about bacterium D. radiodurans
> that could thrive after exposures to 1.5 MILLION rads. (3+ million if
> cold or frozen.) It essentially had the ability to reassemble it's DNA
> from the Radiation blasted fragments. It is intrusting to ponder exactly
> how such a life form could evolve on earth.

That place in (Tanzania, Rwanda, South Africa, Uganda??? Somwhere in
there) where they have evidence of a natural uranium fission
runaway...'twas a long time ago, but they're pretty sure it was a
natural occurance of a critical mass of U-238...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:54:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  That the characters all made it through without injury shows
that if the books were based on an RPG session, they made good die
rolls.
> James Bond 007, as invincible as he is, often faces setbacks and
sees his compatriots get wasted.  (In the books).  How many Bond
movies are there and how many Star Wars movies are there?  Didn't
Obi-Wan bite the big lightsabre?<

Obi-Wan became a more powerful character among the undead.  DV didn't
lay a finger on him.

> Didn't some Eewoks eat laser in Return of the Jedi?<

Nowhere near PC status

> Didn't Biggs kiss Death Star in Star Wars?<

Another NPC.

My point remains that the "TravelMaster" is there to serve the
players.  If the players feel as though the TM needs to be apeased
with gifts, or can be, then balance has gone out of your game.  Done
in jest can be humorous, but in effect it's poor form.  Handing a win
or a Monty Haul to the players is not what I'm talking about.  Just
like the coach analogy, if he hands a trophy to the players at the
first practice there is no glory.  A hard won battle is the most
satisfying.  But having to bribe the coach to get in the game is right
out!


==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:59:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> 
> Gentles,
> 
> Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
> you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We will not be able to fill
> the book with deckplans, and there is still time to be reasobably flexible
> with the outline, so I wanted to get ideas from the fans...

1) A big luxury liner...we have lot's of dinky little ships around, give
us the QEXXXIII ;-)

2) One dreadnaught, same principle as above.

3) A tramp starship OTHER than the Beowulf or Empress Marava class. I'll
nominate the YugoBox designs
(http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html) if I may be so
immodest ;-)

4) A big ol' freighter, something you can let loose an alien in, to eat
the crew...

5) The Happy Fun Ball (aka 800t Mercenary Cruiser)

6) A 100t scout/courier, other than the Sulieman, maybe a disk or sl
slab version.

7) Something real old and creaky, like the Orrimot. (see
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/TheTender.html for the original
design and write-up) Something that might be out there in a million
different forms hacked up by their 14th owners...

8) A yacht..what _does_ a rich playboy's ship look like on the inside?

9) Something alien, like a Hiver, or droyne ship, or something more
exotic...what would a Clotho ship be like?

10) An IISS survey cruiser.

My votes. If you want the YugoBoxes done up as GT designs, let me know,
I'll crank 'em out.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:14:32 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Armor list query

	Someone asked for a copy of my armor list.  His address was

		MC4799@mclink.it

	I sent  a copy, but my mail server sent me a long complicated error messsage.
Long and short,  please drop me a line to tell me if you got the message or
not.

			Dave Nelson
			AveNelso@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:18:01 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur


>I don't agree.  The GM's job is mostly to present opposition.  Obstacles
and
>opposition that are then overcome deserve rewards, doled out by the GM.


Actually, the original poster was more right than you give him credit for.
Believe it or not, the GM has to cooperate with the players. Really. The
analogy of a coach is not a perfect one, but I understood his point.

The role of a GM is much like the banker, in monopoly. He has a special job
above and beyond playing in the game, but he's still playing in the game.
It's still supposed to be fun for the GM and the players.

>A Coach is ALWAYS on the team's side and NEVER opposes his own team (unless
>he is trying to end his career).  Even when he is dogging his team out in
>practice, making them exhausted, it is so that they can win.


A good GM doesn't generally oppose his own players. Or at least he
shouldn't. A good GM works with them to create an interesting story. He may
create obstacles to block their path, but he's still playing as well. Any GM
can "beat" the players anytime he wants to. That's not what running a game
is all about.

>A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
>NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
>battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity.


If the scenario calls for it. Likewise, a bad GM will play all enemy
soldiers as crack-troops who take every opportunity to get behind cover and
supernaturally avoid the line of fire.

>No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
>there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
>have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).


Actually, the hint of death can supply all the danger that's needed. I've
fudged a number of rolls so that the group could manage to get away with one
or two PCs pulling their (severely) wounded away. There are other methods of
introducing danger into a game as well.

To be honest, I disagree that danger has to be introduced into a game to
make it exciting. I ran a Scout sanctioned scavenger hunt and race across a
subsector. There was _no_ danger of the PCs dying! They were completely
safe. It was still exciting, although it wasn't dangerous. This also
captured their attention far better than the combats that had come before.

>A coach is ALWAYS on his team's side (otherwise, can he really be called a
>"coach"), but a GM is the advocate of the opposition and the creator and
>maintainer of his universe.  Failure to see this is beyond my
comprehension.


The GM _plays_ the opposition. That doesn't mean the GM _is_ the opposition.
The GM has to know what the characters in his campaign are capable of and
tailor adventures to them. He is on the side of the players, not the enemy
of the players.

>Remind me not to play in your campaign... I'd get bored REAL QUICK!


It would probably be more fun than you're giving him credit for.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:27:13 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: delusions of grandeur (long)

<I'm not saying that you are a TRUE "god" in the REAL WORLD.  C'mon, do 
you really think I've been asserting that?  I'm only saying what has 
been said all along with RPG's.>
<Clif>

You're the one who said they were being worshiped because they were 
offered food IN REAL LIFE!
- --------------------

>  Anyone can create their own little universe to play
>  by themselves and call themselves "God" or whatever.
>  It is usually called dementia when adults do it.
<Clif responded:>
<And adults who are avid gamers are usually referred to as "geeks".  
What's your point?  Are we cracking on ourselves, now?>

No, I was referring to someone who creates his or her own imaginary 
universe, calls him/herself a god, and plays in it alone.

The GM plays a variety of roles in the game and I think coach is one of 
those roles.  Yes, the GM does play the opposition as well but they also 
play the allies and contacts of the PCs (they should at least).  
Role-playing games are not supposed to be the GM vs. the players, but I 
suspect Clif plays it that way.

Yes, the GM has ALMOST complete control over the game.  But they don't 
(nor should they) have control over the most important part, the PCs.  A 
GM can and often does alter the results of probability but they can't 
control what a PC decides to do.  They can restrict it to a certain 
amount ("your character wouldn't know about that" or penalize for bad 
role-playing) but it is ultimately up to the player what the PC will 
decide to do. The GM cannot predict the future (I haven't seen any that 
can).  Therefore the GM is not all-knowing.  They can alter the future 
but cannot control/predict the PCs' future decisions and reactions (if 
the GM does he/she is effectively playing by him/herself).

If the GM practices arbitrary use of power the game loses its' 
'suspension of disbelief'. This will ruin the game, IMO, and limits the 
GM somewhat (at the least it limits good GMs). The GM may be nearly 
all-powerful in the game but the players have a collective Moot.  That 
is, they can veto and/or impeach the GM and dissolve the game.  The 
so-called "god" can do nothing to stop this.  

- ---------------------------------------------
<Clif also wrote: Isn't author of a sci-fi novel the "god" of that 
universe?> 
No, the author is just a storyteller of an imaginary universe, but you 
could say the author has delusions of being a god in their own imaginary 
universe.  I don't think most authors consider themselves gods.
- --------------------------------------------
<Clif continued: How can ANYONE not see the parallel?>
Easily, everyone has different perspectives on reality.  Obviously yours 
and mine don't match.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:33:04 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: IMTU / TravGeek code for psionics

>In designing the UTUP profile, I forget entirely about the whole 
>Psionics thing, so I would recommend including it as a skill, with a 
>number rating how far you've diverged from canon.  That's what the 
>skill section is for, to cover this type of thing.
>A second solution would be to introduce a seventh stat, separated 
>from the first six by a hyphen, followed by a number ranking the 
>overall importance of psionics in YTU, similar to some of the other 
>UTUP statistics.

>Hope this helps,
>Jason

I'm not sure I remember what UTUP stands for?  I was referring to the 
IMTU code such as:
IMTU: tc+  tm++  !tn  t4+  tg+  tt  ru++(--)  ge+  3I+  c+(-)  jt-  
au+(-)  st++  ls  pi+  ta  he+  kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ zh++  
vi++ da++  sy++
I should have included an example of what I meant.

psi ++	:psionics are a major part of my game.  I have extended rules and 
most of my campaigns revolve around psionic institutes, zhodani spies, 
and the like.

psi +	:I enjoy using psionics and have created secret psionic societies 
for the game.  If one of the PCs wants to be a psi they are likely to be 
one but they will bear the chance of being caught.

psi	:psionics as per the rules.  It is very rare and unless a Zho or 
Droyne is involved it's unlikely to affect the plot.  The PCs have to 
pull teeth to get psionics and must watch their step.

psi -	:psionics take away from the other elements of Traveller.  I only 
use them as background and it will never affect the plot.

psi --	:psionics are so hokey.  I would never use them in a game.
!psi	:I ignore psionics (for whatever reason)
?psi	:I am not sure how to use psionics in my game.

I consider MTU as psi+


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:29:57 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) sez,

>Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>>Imagine what the other worlds in a system are like when the best one
>>has an insidious atmosphere! <G>
>
>Not quite true. It makes the _most populous_, not necessarily best.
>
>I live in Canada's most populous urban conglomeration. It's definately not
>the best location in terms of climate, air quality, scenery, natural
>resources...
>People move here because people already live here. Services exist, markets
>exist, and so forth. Many people don't like living here, but are here
>because that's where they could get a job. If they won the lottery they'd
>leave tomorrow.

Dang right!

What bugs me about this argument (that there shouldn't be
high-pop/insidious atmosphere worlds a parsec away from low pop garden
worlds) is that it embodies a completely erroneous assumption: that
high-pop worlds all result from high immigration. That's crazy. Sure, there
are worlds that the Imperium is putting great effort into colonizing, with
very large ships full of low-berthed colonists, but this is not how Pop 7
or Pop 9 worlds come about!

Really high populations obviously result from high population growth rates
- -- either due to high birth rates or low mortality or long lifespans. Maybe
the local conditions aren't great, the atmosphere is unbreathable, there
isn't much water, etc., but most human populations expand exactly as fast
as they are able (often faster than resources can support -- see Malthus).
People *like* to have lots of kids, whether its sensible to have them or
not.

Even if millions of people can afford to pull up stakes and move to a
garden world, individually or en masse, it's highly unlikely that such
emigration is going to make the slightest dent in the population growth
rate. In fact, birth rates might even *increase* to offset emigration; the
people left behind might think the exodus leaves more resources for them to
have more kids!

Further, most of these high-pop worlds have probably been inhabited since
at least the Rule of Man, maybe even since the Ziru Sirka. Maybe they were
never intended to be more than tiny mining colonies or research outposts.
During the Long Night, they didn't have the option to move to that "garden
world next door", or anywhere else beyond their system. And people kept
having kids and more kids, and so they kept adding another dome, another
tunnel complex, another atmosphere plant. A lot can happen over 1500 years.

Finally, a" garden world" might not be so idyllic as the UWP seems to
suggest. Sure, you can breathe the air, but maybe the indigenous life forms
are based on poisonous left-handed proteins. Perhaps the climate sucks real
bad. Maybe the rotation rate is such that hurricanes are a constant threat.
Maybe the axial tilt is extreme. Maybe the planet is constantly pummelled
by asteroids and comets. Maybe the local government doesn't allow
immigration.

Use your imagination, folks! The referee is supposed to make inferences
from the UWP; if the population seems too low, then this should suggest
that there's a good *reason* why it's too low.

Best,

Glenn
...in Montreal, hoping to win a lottery and move someplace sensibly warm... ;/

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #135
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 12 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 136



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A World Without Death
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Starships
Re: Delusions of grandeur
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: GMing Philosophy...
Re: Alien biology question  LONG
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Alien biology question
Top 10 GT Starships
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Alien biology question...
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #135
Re: GMing Philosophy...
Re: IMTU / TravGeek code for psionics
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #135
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:30:18 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

Walter Smith said:

>It's usually pretty easy to do. Watch the movie, and try to figure out
>(if the movie were a game session) which characters are PC's and which
>ones are not.


Always a fun game!

>All the Ewoks. All the X-Wing pilots, except Luke Skywalker. Everyone in
>every James Bond flick except Bond and (sometimes) his love interest.
>All the Marines in _Aliens_, except Hicks. All NPC's. Hmmm, see how
>many of these people died in the movies?


Hey! I disagree. Vasquez was a PC! She died heroically though. Hudson was a
PC too, but the GM couldn't bear to put up with his ceaseless whining!

You see, Hudson was poorly played. In real life he was acted much the same
way. During that gaming session he would screech things like, "WHAT, WE'RE
OUT OF CHIPS? WHAT'RE WE GONNA DO NOW, HUH?" and "OH MAN, MY D6 CHIPPED WHEN
IT FELL ON THE FLOOR, THAT'S IT MAN, GAME OVER MAN!"

The GM had to kill him off so he'd go home.

>Spot the NPC...fun for the whole family!!


True enough.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:40:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> You see, Hudson was poorly played. In real life he was acted much the same
> way. During that gaming session he would screech things like, "WHAT, WE'RE
> OUT OF CHIPS? WHAT'RE WE GONNA DO NOW, HUH?" and "OH MAN, MY D6 CHIPPED WHEN
> IT FELL ON THE FLOOR, THAT'S IT MAN, GAME OVER MAN!"
> 
> The GM had to kill him off so he'd go home.

ROFLMAO!!! I've _been_ there!


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:46:27 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

>>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>>you would like to see GT Starships deal with.

I'd like to see:

1) A big liner (the "Intersteller Queen")
2) A bulk freighter (the "Nostromo")
3) A deep space exploration/survey cruiser
4) A monitor (a big SDB)
5) A Solomani lunar transport -- compared to a Saturn V :-)
6) A K'kree cruiser
7) A Zhodani reconniassance scout
8) An Ancients' military ship
9) A big assault transport
10) An Imperial star destroyer, err, dreadnaught

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Delusions of grandeur

	
	As I referee, I have found one and only one way to "win" when the players say
thank you for a good game and want to play again.   Guess what, this can
happen even if lots of PC's get killed, or if they don't.  The important thing
is that they don't get bored, and often the other PC's have as much to do with
this as the GM does.


		Dave Nelson

(Alas, this is why I'm now refereeing D&D rather than Traveller, since I'm in
a new town and thought it would be easier to find heaps of D&D players and
slowly convert them over to Traveller once they got used to playing with me.) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:52:44 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

In a message dated 2/12/99 2:14:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< 
 Even the Call of Cthulu games I've played in (only game with higher
 casualty rate: Paranoia) managed to make deaths an event, if nothing
 else than because our GM managed to give some reality to NPC's
 before she offed them >>

	I've played buckets of different sorts of RPG's and have found this thread a
little interesting.  I've always found that Traveller was a game that was on
the higher end of the character mortality scale. (Gakk, when a Tech 8 defense
satellite got a critical hit "ship explodes" hit on a TL-14 asteroid ship and
killed half the PC's and most of their mercenary unit, that was an EVENT --I
couldn't even cheat my way out of it since one of the players was rolling for
the opposing force.)

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:57:11 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

Bruce Johnson writes:
"As a GM, I have killed off player characters before, but I 
make every possible allowance up to and including completely 
disregarding the rolls and rules to keep the PC's alive."

	I am in full agreement with this policy, and have
	followed it myself, but I always avoid letting the 
	players know this. There is something to be said for
	keeping the "fear of god" (NOT fear of the GM, rather
	fear for their character's lives in the game). I never
	enjoyed playing in a game in which my character's 
	survival was assured. Therefore I have let PCs die if
	circumstances warranted (ie they ignored big "don't do 
	this" signs, took rediculous risks, etc.). In this way, 
	my players feel that their actions determine their fates.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:01:42 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

| Since 1967 the SI unit for time, the second, has been
| defined as exactly 9,192,631,770 periods of radio
| radiation emitted as a result of gyroscopic precession
| of the outermost electron in undisturbed cesium atoms.

Hmmm, very precise but also very arbitrary.  Shame that
they didn't settle for an even 10 billion cycles.
(10,000 million cycles in some cultures <g>)

Still, how may extra-terrestrial races are going to agree
on cesium?  Or, is it an ideal element for its stability?

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:01:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

In a message dated 2/12/99 2:58:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
yikes@evansville.net writes:

<< I'm the author of the games I run. Boy, do my character surprise me
 sometimes! ;-)
  >>

	I'll second that one.  In my current game (every other week) I haven't drawn
up a scenario for over 4 months since the players surprise me every single
session and go somewhere other than where I expected them to go.  It's lucky
I'm a fast thinking genius at this GM business (if not at at the "predictions"
business)

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:58:19 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question  LONG

Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:18:46 +0100, Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>

Ian wrote:
> But then, DNA is not the only genetic material here on
> Terra (RNA is used in some viruses). Perhaps your race
> relies on a "sturdier" molecule to encode genetic
> information. Proteins? Polysaccharides? Nylon? I need
> a chemist here.

The problem with DNA and radiation is, I believe, that the
radiation comes along and cleaves the strand.  The strand
then has to be fixed correctly.  Replacing it with
other polymers won't change that.

Solutions are multiple copies of DNA (some radiation resistant
bacteria do this), addition strands (some redundant?), improved
repair abilities.  Also, small genomes would be good to.  A lot
of DNA doesn't code for anything, but represents places it can
be damage, you want to reduce this.  (Pine trees suffered more
at Chernoybl (sp?) becase they have large genomes).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:11:31 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

>Chris Seamans wrote:
>>
>> You see, Hudson was poorly played. In real life he was acted much the
same
>> way. During that gaming session he would screech things like, "WHAT,
WE'RE
>> OUT OF CHIPS? WHAT'RE WE GONNA DO NOW, HUH?" and "OH MAN, MY D6 CHIPPED
WHEN
>> IT FELL ON THE FLOOR, THAT'S IT MAN, GAME OVER MAN!"
>>
>> The GM had to kill him off so he'd go home.
>
>ROFLMAO!!! I've _been_ there!


I think we've ALL been there! ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:52:12 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

Todd A. Zircher wrote:

> | Since 1967 the SI unit for time, the second, has been
> | defined as exactly 9,192,631,770 periods of radio
> | radiation emitted as a result of gyroscopic precession
> | of the outermost electron in undisturbed cesium atoms.
>
> Hmmm, very precise but also very arbitrary.  Shame that
> they didn't settle for an even 10 billion cycles.

Defined as not based on.  If we rounded off  to 10 billion (or trillion)
we'd be off by nearly 10% which would screw up everyone's timepiece.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:01:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:18:46 +0100, Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
> 
> Ian wrote:
> > But then, DNA is not the only genetic material here on
> > Terra (RNA is used in some viruses). Perhaps your race
> > relies on a "sturdier" molecule to encode genetic
> > information. Proteins? Polysaccharides? Nylon? I need
> > a chemist here.
> 
> The problem with DNA and radiation is, I believe, that the
> radiation comes along and cleaves the strand.  The strand
> then has to be fixed correctly.  Replacing it with
> other polymers won't change that.

The problem is more generic than that. Radiation comes along, smacks
into various molecules in the cell, and creates free radicals, which are
extremely reactive compounds. Any long chain polymer needed for encoding
genetic information will be attacked and damaged.

 It doesn't have to be, in fact almost certainly won't be DNA, but for
maintenance of a genetic code, you need a carrier of a lot of
information. Chemically speaking that means polymers of some sort.

That information will be dependent on the sequence of units of the code.
(This is, btw, from basic communications theory, not necessarily tied to
biochemistry) Chemical code components will be susceptible to the
alterations that occur upon reaction with free radicals, much like
static on a phone line can interfere with the transmission of modem
signals.

End result is much the same, you drop your connection (the organism
dies) or you get your information altered along the way, leaving a
corrupted file (mutant organism).

The key to dealing with high levels of static (radiation exposure) is a
combination of active error correction (things like DNA repair
transcriptases, multiple copies of the coding molecule) and line
conditioning (antioxidants).


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:09:51 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Top 10 GT Starships

<Sent to LKW>

Top 10, heh?

Well, there are gazillions of deckplans and specs for all the normal
ships; traders, gunboats, a few destroyers, etc.

What I would like to see is some specialty ships along the following 
lines (not necessarily in order of appearance):

The Emperor's Yacht
Safari Vessels for different atmospheric types: water, gas giant, etc.
Belter 
Gas Collection 
Racing Gig 
Ship Tender 
Fighters (not necessarily in great detail) w/ accompanying Carrier.
"One really good" space station (modular for different situ's)

I hope this helps.  


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:33:28 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

From: Chris Seamans 
 
> The role of a GM is much like the banker, in monopoly. He has a special
job
> above and beyond playing in the game, but he's still playing in the game.
> It's still supposed to be fun for the GM and the players.

What game would have the GM called the banker?  Papers and Paychecks?  (Did
that joke make it into 2nd Ed AD&D?)  Or, maybe GURPS Illuminati?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

ps:  I keep suffering from delusions of adequacy....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:04 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

From: Bruce Johnson 
> That place in (Tanzania, Rwanda, South Africa, Uganda??? Somwhere in
> there) where they have evidence of a natural uranium fission
> runaway...'twas a long time ago, but they're pretty sure it was a
> natural occurance of a critical mass of U-238...

Nah, it was Avery nuking a timetravelling Virus....

Seriously, though, do you have a reference for this?  I hadn't heard of it
before, and it sounds really cool.  Hmm, Call of Cthulhu, Champions,
anything with time travel, and, of course, it could happen on other worlds 
too, maybe while the PCs are on world, so they have to investigate...

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:24:59 -0600
From: "Benada, Rob" <BenadaR@mycogen.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #135

>> from the Radiation blasted fragments. It is intrusting to ponder
exactly
>> how such a life form could evolve on earth.
>
>That place in (Tanzania, Rwanda, South Africa, Uganda??? Somwhere in
>there) where they have evidence of a natural uranium fission
>runaway...'twas a long time ago, but they're pretty sure it was a
>natural occurance of a critical mass of U-238...

The article actually mentions that:
"...There are rare cases in which radioactive elements such as uranium
or thorium concentrate under-ground in large amounts, but the radiation
fluxes near those sites are still small compared with what the microbe
can withstand..."

It only takes 500 to 1000 Rads to kill most people. This little bug can
take 1.5 MILLION RADS. 

- -
Snorkey - Remember, a rested mind is Not a fevered mind.
snorkey@macol.net
http://www.macol.net/~snorkey/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:24:44 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

>>I'm the author of the games I run. Boy, do my character surprise >>me
sometimes! ;-)
> I'll second that one.  In my current game (every other week) I haven't
>drawn up a scenario for over 4 months since the players surprise me >every
single session and go somewhere other than where I >expected them to go.
This I can relate to. I almost never used any pre-planned scenario, the boys
just never go for it. Hell, now most of the time I'll start with a random
encounter and see where the PCs take me. I've got to think on the run, but
its fun and the PCs are sure to read more into something then I've EVER
though. Then again I have a majorly paranoid bunch to run.

Wayne Ewart

wewart@home.com
ICQ # 22113294

This is the theater of life. Admission is free, but taxation is mortal. You
come when you can and leave when you must. The show is continues. Goodnight.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:28:23 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: IMTU / TravGeek code for psionics

>I was referring to the IMTU code such as:
>IMTU: tc+  tm++  !tn  t4+  tg+  tt  ru++(--)  ge+  3I+  c+(-)  jt-
>au+(-)  st++  ls  pi+  ta  he+  kk++  hi++  as++  dr++  va++  so++ >zh++
vi++ da++  sy++
Could you post what "all" the "geek" code mean (some I can figure out, but
others make me go ???).

Wayne Ewart

wewart@home.com
ICQ # 22113294

This is the theater of life. Admission is free, but taxation is mortal. You
come when you can and leave when you must. The show is continues. Goodnight.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:35:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> >All the Marines in _Aliens_, except Hicks. All NPC's. Hmmm, see how
> >many of these people died in the movies?
> 
> 
> Hey! I disagree. Vasquez was a PC! She died heroically though. Hudson was a

I beg to differ -- and to conflate threads.  She was godlike. :)

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:47:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #135

<Glenn Grant>
What bugs me about this argument (that there shouldn't be
high-pop/insidious atmosphere worlds a parsec away from low pop garden
worlds) is that it embodies a completely erroneous assumption: that
high-pop worlds all result from high immigration. That's crazy. Sure,there
are worlds that the Imperium is putting great effort into colonizing, with
very large ships full of low-berthed colonists, but this is not how Pop 7
or Pop 9 worlds come about!
</Glenn Grant>

Yes!  Right on!  I've always *hated* that whole "garden world=hi pop" 
concept. I really think people are engaging in terribly terracentric
thinking when they assume these sorts of things.  It's hard for some to
see that these worlds are not *colonies* anymore, they're *homeworlds*,
People have lived there for scores of generations and this is what's
normal to them. 

<Glenn>
Really high populations obviously result from high population growth rates
- - -- either due to high birth rates or low mortality or long lifespans.
Maybe
the local conditions aren't great, the atmosphere is unbreathable, there
isn't much water, etc., but most human populations expand exactly as fast
as they are able (often faster than resources can support -- see Malthus).
People *like* to have lots of kids, whether its sensible to have them or
not.
</Glenn>

Preach it, brother! :-)

<Glenn>
Even if millions of people can afford to pull up stakes and move to a
garden world, individually or en masse, it's highly unlikely that such
emigration is going to make the slightest dent in the population growth
rate. In fact, birth rates might even *increase* to offset emigration; the
people left behind might think the exodus leaves more resources for them
to have more kids!
</Glenn>

Another thing to consider is that these people who are leaving will
probably head, not for a garden world, but for a world much like *home*. 
Consider a group of folks who've been living on an airless rock for
*centuries*.  They KNOW how to build up soil from native rock and dust,
they KNOW how to set up good air recycling and water treatment, they
instinctively take good care of vacc suits and check air-lock pressure
indicators, etc.  In short, they have all the culture, expertise, and
knowledge which make a rockball the perfect environment for them.  Why
would they move somewhere where they have to deal with such new problems
as weather and a competitive alien biosphere? (As recently discussed on
the TML, planting your own crops in soil that's permeated with alien
biomass is a non-trivial task).

<Glenn> 
Finally, a "garden world" might not be so idyllic as the UWP seems
to suggest. Sure, you can breathe the air, but maybe the indigenous life
forms are based on poisonous left-handed proteins. Perhaps the climate
sucks real bad. Maybe the rotation rate is such that hurricanes are a
constant threat.  Maybe the axial tilt is extreme. Maybe the planet is
constantly pummelled by asteroids and comets. Maybe the local government
doesn't allow immigration.. 
</Glenn>

Yes, I think there's and unfortunate tendency for people to see a UPP of
867000-0 and think "Hey, it's just like earth!  Why doesn't everybody move
there, since earth is just SO great!"  They forget that it's almost
definately NOT just like earth and that even if it was, most of the
population of the galaxy, having lived on non-terran type worlds for the
past millenium at least, would not consider it so wonderful necessarily.
Honestly, this is not the kind of thinking I'd expect from SF fans, it's
kinda narrow-minded like the Solomani supremacist philosophy or--oh wait,
I'm beginning to see the light... :-)

<Glenn>
Glenn
...in Montreal, hoping to win a lottery and move someplace sensibly
warm... ;/
</Glenn>

Charles
...also in Montreal, knowing that if he moved southward he'd miss the
winter, for all its inconveniences... (no, really!)

- -----
It is a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:55 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

At 02:03 am 2/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>societies that are not interdicted. Just as surgery is _possible_ as
>soon as you can make a sharp knife and boil water. (So IMO surgery
is
>TL 1 and not TL 4).

	Scratch the boiling water. All it took was the ability to flake
knife blades. Obsidian flakes are incredibly sharp AND naturally
sterile when fresh. The rock is so impermeable that the inside of the
rock is as clean of life as possible--it formed from molten rock,
after all, and nothing has been able to get in since.

	Evidence is found in various ancient skulls showing signs of (a)
deliberate "surgical*" trauma, and (b) patient having survived for
years AFTER the surgery ...

	In fact, increasing TL actually makes things WORSE ... deliberate
surgical cleanliness wasn't even considered until very late in
history. Most surgeon's "tools" weren't even cleaned between
patients. In fact, IIRC the "surgeon" was most often also a butcher,
because he had the right tools ...

*Surgical in quotes because we're not quite sure what the purpose
was--if it was therapeutic, it was surgery (even if it was based on a
theory of "let the bad spirits out" instead of "relieve intracranial
pressure").
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:03:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

Alan Bradley wrote:
>
> Seriously, though, do you have a reference for this?  I hadn't heard of it
> before, and it sounds really cool.  Hmm, Call of Cthulhu, Champions,
> anything with time travel, and, of course, it could happen on other worlds
> too, maybe while the PCs are on world, so they have to investigate...
>

I do SO love AltaVista!!!

First hit lead to an article in Science about a French firm mining the
last of these, which gave me the name of the place Oklo. Oklo lead to:

http://alamut.com/proj/98/nuclearGarden/bookTexts/Lovelock_Oklo.html

and 

http://www.sciam.com/1998/0698issue/0698wonders.html

Which refs an article in the July 1976 issue of Scientific American.

Basically what happened, is that _b_illions of years ago, the percentage
of U235 was high enough in these deposits that ordinary water would act
as a moderator, rather than heavy water. This allowed a fission reaction
to build up and sustain itself.

The French discovered this when the mined the site (it is in Gabon, BTW)
and shipped the ore off home to be purified, wherupon it was found to
already be depleted of U235. This lead to a lot of headscratching, to
put it mildly...


This is a quote from another web site:

http://nova.nuc.umr.edu/~ans/oklo.html

"... If a canister holding either a whole fuel assembly or solidified
waste should disintegrate, even soon after its emplacement in a
repository, there is good reason to believe that the fission products
and TRU nuclides would not diffuse far into the environment. Strong
support for this contention is furnished by what has become known as the
_Oklo phenomenon_. Oklo is the name of a uranium mine in the African
nation of Gabon, where France obtains much of the uranium for her
nuclear program. When uranium from this mine was introduced into a
French gaseous diffusion plant, it was discovered that the feed uranium
was already depleted below the 0.711 w% of ordinary natural uranium. It
was as if the uranium had already been used to fuel some unknow reactor

And so it had. French scientists found traces of fission products and
TRU waste at various locations within the mine. These observations were
puzzling at first, because it is not possible to make a reactor go
critical with natural uranium, except under very special circumstances
with a graphite or heavy water moderator, neither of which could
reasonably be expected to have ever been present in the vicinity of
Oklo. The explanation of the phenomenon is to be found in the fact that
the half-life of U235, 7.13E8 years, is considerably shorter than the
half-life of U238,4.51E9 years. Since the original formation of the
earth, more U235 has therefore decayed than U238. This, in turn, means
that the enrichment of natural uranium was greater years ago than it is
today. Indeed, it is easy to show (see Prob. 2.37) that about 3 billion
years ago this enrichment was in the neighborhood of 3 w%, sufficiently
high to form a critical assembly with ordinary water, which is known to
have been present near Oklo at that time.

The relevance of the Oklo phenomenon to present-day disposal of
radioactive wastes is that neither the fission products (identified by
their stable daughters) nor the plutonium migrated from the Oklo site in
the billions of years since the reactor was critical. "




Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:24:39 -0500
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric Units of Interstellar Distance

At 04:03 AM 2/11/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>The speed of light seems to be a good starting point, since it is a
>>>universal constant (probably :-).  Now we need a universal unit of time,
>>>something like the half-life of cobalt or something like that...any
>>>suggestions?
>>
>> How about the amount of time it takes light to move a certain percentage of
>> the Galactic Radius. That's fairly universal.
>
>Nope. The galaxy doesn't really *have* a "radius". It just sort of
>"peters out". Any "edge" is a purely *arbitrary* decision. 
>
>> Using 2 unique stars would work in place of the galactic radius, but this
>> could end up again being unique to the race that controls those stars
>
>And it'll vary. 

I suppose this all boils down to ol' Albert's rule...


It's all Relative (no Arkansas jokes please :) )

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #136
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 137



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A World Without Death
Re: Starships
*The Legacy of Heorot*
Old Fasa
Re: *The Legacy of Heorot* 
Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler
Re: Starships
Re : Personal identification, etc.
Re: Starships
Outrim void?
PBEM.  Nightrim
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: GT Adventures....
Re: Domain of Deneb
Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
IMTU codes explained
Re: Guinness
Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:19:53 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

Kenji said:
>> Hey! I disagree. Vasquez was a PC! She died heroically though. Hudson was a
>
>I beg to differ -- and to conflate threads.  She was godlike. :)


Okay, I really can't disagree there. ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:41:41 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Starships

>>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>>you would like to see GT Starships deal with.

I'd like to see:
1. Vargr corsair/frigate
2. Imperial destroyer (something in the 1000-3000 dTon range, like a Midu)
3. Medium freighter (again in the 1000 dTon range)
4. Some kind of fixed isntallation (a small highport or misc spacestation)
5. Low-tech merchant ship (something at Trav-tech-level 9 - fusion rockets,
   maybe even spun gravity, heavily refitted to still make a living)
6. SDB (400-1000 dTons)
7. Lab ship
8. Medium exploration ship (1000-2000 dTons)

I guess that's not ten yet...Although (like everyone) I'd love to see deckplans
for a serious warship, it's not going to happen; partial deckplans for the AHL
fill an entire box, after all; you can't do even a real cruiser in a book
at a decent scale and have room for anything else. It's also not *useful*.
You could have "experts" from deckplans for (say) a Tigress - parts PCs
are likely to see, like the hangers. And the brig. But having the whole
TRigress only matters if you have a firefight that travels the length
of it.

Much more useful is a warship at a size that PCs might routinely encounter it,
or imagine having to salvage, or escape from, or crew - a destroyer or 
destroyer escort. 

Bruce
(A "You Are Here" figure showing a Tigress and a Type S, that would be 
useful.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:00:44 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: *The Legacy of Heorot*

A few weeks ago, during the discussion of low berths and the hazards
inherent therein, someone mentioned *The Legacy of Heorot*, by Niven,
Pournelle, and Barnes.  Whoever that was - thank you!  I found it at the
base library; finished it a couple days ago, and am now reading *Beowulf's
Children*.  Good books!


James
wondering how to get grendels into a non-colonial Traveller game....



Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie
Dun an Leomhain Bhig
Canton of Dragon's Aerie [southeastern CT]
Barony Beyond the Mountain  [northern & southeastern CT]
East Kingdom
- -------   -------   -------
Argent, a chevron cotised azure surmounted by a sword and in chief two
mullets sable

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:17:44 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Old Fasa

Does anyone have any idea where would be a good place to get ahold of some
of the old FASA deckplans?  ISPMV Fenris, Adventure class ships, etc.?

Thanks,
Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:50:15 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: *The Legacy of Heorot* 

> James
> wondering how to get grendels into a non-colonial Traveller game....

Before my PBEM, "Candles Against The Night', went into stasis for a bit, my 
characters were learning all about grendals.  The place was a little planet 
called, amusingly enough, Grendal, a quiet TL10 water world just outside the 
Carrillian Assembly, in Drexilthar Subsector of Reavers Deep.

I'd say some more, but the game *WILL* resume again someday, hopefully with 
the same players, and I don't wanna blow any secrets.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:45:22 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler

A few days ago I mentioned the book "Mother of Storms" by John Barnes (ISBN
0-75280-886-9) which describes a situation where hurricanes would become
self sustaining and devastating. Someone asked how it worked, but I
couldn't answer then. However, I bought a copy of the book and skim read it
tonight so here is an attempt at a brief summary; no doubt there are
members of the TML who could comment on the feasibility of the whole thing.

Stage 1 - Changes to the environment to allow the scenario.

a) Methane is trapped in the seabeds in clathrates (23 water molecules
making a cage around 4 methane molecules). Clathrate beds are found
throughout the world, and those in the Arctic Ocean are tens of metres
deep, and hundreds of kilometres across.

b) These are disturbed and landslides and collapses occur as the ice
surrounding the methane melts, releasing it. Thousands of years of deposits
are released as further collapses occur causing more landslides etc. [In
the book, the release is triggered by the use of low yield weapons against
a missile base located on the Arctic seabed. 173 billion tonnes of methane
is released, raising atmospheric methane levels to 37 times those in 1992.]

c) The methane is a greenhouse gas. This traps heat, and will as a result
allow the air to retain more moisture. Interaction with sea water will
increase ocean temperatures. Potentially, the earth's albedo is reduced, as
the extra heat in the atmosphere results in glaciers and snow melting
earlier in the spring, and retards/inhibits their formation in the autumn
(fall). This can act as a feedback effect over time increasing the water
content in the air, thus the heat etc etc.

d) As a result of this heating, the area within the 27.5 deg C isotherm
increases, as ocean temperatures rise (estimating 40% transfer rates
between air and water). The 27.5 isotherm is the point where the energy
supplied by the water exceeds the losses in wind moving the heat, and
allows hurricanes to grow. Below 27.5 hurricanes will 'burnout' as they are
not sustainable. Hurricanes act as a heat engine. Heat from the warm ocean
is moved to the base of the cool stratosphere, and wind is generated to
drive this process.

[In the book the hurricane formation zones (areas within the 27.5 isotherm)
expand from the two or three usual in the Pacific to one large one 11000
miles across and 3500 miles wide.]

e) The force of a hurricane is determined by two things, the water
temperature and the distance travelled over the water hot enough to allow
hurricanes to be generated. Usually this is 1500 or 2000 miles at most, and
most hurricanes are in the zones for less than 24 hours, and have wind
speeds not exceeding 100 mph.

[The effect in the book means that hurricane size limits have been raised
dramatically.]

Stage 2 - initiation of the first storm.

a) A hurricane is generated - eventually the cold air at upper atmosphere
levels and the warm, moist air over the sea become unstable (perhaps as a
result of upper level wind action), and the warm air bubbles up to the
tropopause (the point where temperature starst to fall). More warm air is
drawn into the space at sea level where the rising air came from. The warm
air at the tropopause spreads out, and a cell is created, drawing in at the
bottom and blowing out at the top. Coriolis forces impart a spin to the air
drawn in, which can come from more than 100 kilometres away. Eventually,
the spiralling air at the base of the hurricane becomes too 'thick' (a ring
of clouds) for more air to break through, and the ring starts to spin
faster and faster around the central column and high winds start to spin
around it, drawing up. The central column, deprived of an air supply
empties and becomes the clear eye of the hurricane. The corkscrew of air
around the eye pumps air more efficiently and eventually reaches the
tropopause, driving a more efficient outspreading of air. In turn, more air
is sucked in at the base, faster....

b) The motion of the hurricane is driven by coriolis force, plus the
direction of the upper air streams. In addition, motion is limited by the
warm water formation zones, as a hurricane exiting one of these will 'burn
out'.

Stage 3 - The formation of child hurricanes

a) Airflow out of hurricanes is not always in all directions. Occasionally
an outflow jet forms when the hot air organises itself into a single column
out of the hurricane. This is more efficient at transfering mass and energy
than before, so removes a limit on hurricane size as more air (mass) can be
drawn through the heat engine which is the hurricane.

b) All this air comes down in a single spot where the outflow jet touches
down. This generates a high pressure region where air is blown outwards,
towards the low of the hurricane's eye. Thus the hurricane starts to be
blown around the ocean.

c) Bigger hurricanes tend to have outflow jets, and some may have several.
But the hurricane's motion becomes erratic as the outflow jet is not stable
and can move about, touching down at different places. This can lead to the
hurricane wandering erratically, and contradicting the 'steering' currents
of air at 20,000 feet. (the upper air streams mentioned above).

d) With a bigger hurricane (such as those permitted by the zones described
in the first section) the outflow can grow to the point it becomes the
primary determinant of the direction in which the hurricane moves,
overiding coriolis force and the steering currents. The jets tend to
'wobble' around the hurricane, counter clockwise. If the outflow is dragged
behind in the steering current's path it will accelerate the motion of the
hurricane.

e) Where outflow jets touch down, they deposit moisture, and generate high
levels of wind shear as the wind blows out from the touch down point. This
generates cumulonimbus clouds (thunderheads) which have strong updrafts
starting a cell. Around the touchdown point tornadogenesis is common, with
air rotating around local low pressure points.

f) When the outflow jet moves/lifts the high pressure downdraught is gone,
and the moist, warm, rotating air previously pressed down starts to rise.
This leads to high wind shears being generated, sucking up moist air to
replace the rising previously pressed down air.  In normal hurricanes the
outflow touches down close enough to the eye for the high pressure air to
be drawn in.

g) In a hurricane with vastly increased energy this is not necessarily the
case. A situation with conditions suitable for the generation of a second
hurricane has been reached, provided the 27.5 isotherm hasn't been crossed.

Stage 4 - The Mother of Storms.

a) With the outflow jet driving the hurricane, and the expanded warm areas
suitable for sustaining hurricanes they may loop around again instead of
wandering off and burning out. In the mean time, the mother and her child
hurricanes continue to grew and spawn.

b) The eye reaches 350 km diameter, and wind speeds of 250 metres per sec,
faster than tornados. Wind resistance increases rapidly as Mach 1 is
approached and the hurricane stabilise around Mach 0.7, and becomes
insensitive to further loops through the warm water. A significant increase
in ocean temperature is needed, at which point the hurricane will rapidly
grow and in a matter of minutes acheive Mach 1.2.

[Fortunately, in the scenario proposed in the book this will only happen in
summer, in the shallowest areas.]

c)When this happens, the lowered pressures in the storm lifts even more
warm water into the air, improving atmospheric/sea water heat transfer and
thus the sea temperature rises, increasing the power of the hurricane.

d) At this point massive storm surges and high winds will probably wipe out
most of the planet's population.

Hope that was of interest,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:42:47 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 11:55 12-2-99 -0600, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>Gentles,
>
>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We will not be able to fill
>the book with deckplans, and there is still time to be reasobably flexible
>with the outline, so I wanted to get ideas from the fans...

1)  A small merchant - not a *Marava* or a *Beowulf*, but something else
around the same size, or a wee bit bigger, and a jump-2 or jump-3 drive.
2)  A good-sized freighter - *Leviathan*, or maybe something up in the
10kton range.
3)  A liner of about the same size.
4)  A destroyer.
5)  A cruiser - say around 20 ktons.
6)  A yacht.
7)  A bigger scout - say 300-500 tons.
8)  At least one non-Imperial warship.
9)  At least one non-Imperial merchant or other civilian ship.
10)  A generic space station, with various modules to adapt it for
different worlds/purposes - stores, lodging, bars, warehouses (regular,
cold, liquid, &c), offices.


James

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:02:14 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Personal identification, etc.

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote :-
> Since I am of the opinion that TLs makes the most sense if they are
> interpreted as the technology that people can use if they have the
> required knowledge[1], that simply means that the definition is at
> fault. In the Traveller Universe the concept is _available_ to all
> societies that are not interdicted. Just as surgery is _possible_ as
> soon as you can make a sharp knife and boil water. (So IMO surgery is
> TL 1 and not TL 4).

This too is my interpretation of the way TLs work.
What is the knowledge base possessed by most sophonts on this world?
Check the TL.
*Pre-literate cultures should be able to be rated on the TL scale*.
Symbolic representation of language, maps, etc. is a big idea, like the
development of numbers.

Making TL 1's index 'knowledge achievement' the development of the
concept of writing and numbers seemed like a good idea at the time.

Re surgery :-
Yes, it is possible at TL 1, even TL 0. Success rates are not too good
though.... especially without anaesthesia, analgesics and somewhat more
scrupulous antisepsis than 'boiling water' (though Vland would pose a
notable exception to the last requirement).

<shameless plug>
Check my series on 'Medicine In Traveller' which Jeff Zeitlin has kindly
posted on Freelance Traveller.
One possible TL progression is described there.
</shameless plug>


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:24:48 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Loren,

Top 10 "wanna see" ships:

A "common" class patrols ship that would typically be encountered in
EACH of the Major 'Empires'. One that the Pc's in each of the realms
might run into. Say something like a patrol corvette\frigate or SDB
for...

1) Zhodani
2) Vargr
3) K'kree
4) Aslan
5) Hiver
6) Imperial
7) Solomani
8) Droyne

For the last 2

9) Large Liner (for those adventures where the Pcs DON'T have their own
ship)
10) A factory ship or base to process ore brought to it by asteroid
miners.

There's more but you only asked for 10 ;^>

Mike Peters

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> 
> Gentles,
> 
> Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
> you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We will not be able to fill
> the book with deckplans, and there is still time to be reasobably flexible
> with the outline, so I wanted to get ideas from the fans...
> 
> Please reply directly yo lkw@io.com as I still can't read the TML digests.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Loren Wiseman
>      Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>      SJ Games
>      LKW@IO.COM
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:49:57 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Outrim void?

I just picked up BtC.  The sidebars make several references to the
"Outrim void" which seems to be somewhere rimward of Glisten.  I've
never heard of this before -- is it something I'm missing from the other
Gurps Traveller books?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:43:43 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: PBEM.  Nightrim

Morning all.

LOWDOWN:

I'm starting to recruit for a new PBEM.  I'm sending this to both lists
so have patients with me as I attempt to explain my philosophy.

I've tried a number of different approaches to PBEM's and none have
proven entierly satisfactory to me, the lag time is to great, it's
difficult to get a hold of some people, some people are more active than
others and so the list goes on.

In an attempt to remedy this I've decided to run a PB-ICQ live on
alternating Saturday nights.  That's my initial goal, but it'll like be
modified as time goes on to reflect both my and the player's ability to
be online.

SETTING:

Having sent this to both lists I'm expecting to be hacked apart for my
Heritical views on one of these lists but hell I'm a Heritic and proud
of it.

The game will be set in a small Pocket Empire, known as the
Confederation of Nightrim, on the Reavers Deep Daibei boarder.  The game
will be set in the TNE universe and Virus will exist.  The charater's
will begin as members of the Confederation of Nightrim Exploration and
Recon Service, CNERS (Sinners) and the game will progress from there as
we get a feel for our respective characters.

I'd invite you to check out my site but unfortunately my site server is
down at the moment so you'll have to hang in there for a day or so.

RULE SET:

I'll be using a slightly modified version of the TNE ruleset.  Why,
because I like d20's and my cat's go crazy when I spin them across the
table.  8^)

WHEN:

approx 18:00-22:00 PST (GMT -0800)

That's about it.

If you're interested or just curious drop me a line.

Thanks

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:48:12 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

In a message dated 2/12/99 7:32:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
writes:

<< Sigh...my very first home computer game. At its end, as I settled into my low
 berth, it was with the expectation of awaking to a new adventure when a sequel
 was released (after all, it was titled Sentinal Worlds I ). My character is
 still drifting in a cyber sleep on a back-up disk somewhere. What ever
 happened to a sequel?
 J.LaRosee  >>

now here is an interesting adventure nugget...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:49:36 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Adventures....

In a message dated 2/12/99 8:23:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< Some else mentioned that they'd like to see SJG publish a GT 
 Adventures....Just wanted to say on the record...that idea has my vote 
 too..It would be good to see some new adventures out there...espically 
 helpful when u are asked to run something the night before!
 Mike  >>

great idea, but I'll even settle for reprints of the 13 LBB adventures, and
the 6 double adventures....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:16:22 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Domain of Deneb

> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:42:56 +0000
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: re: Domain of Deneb (was Re: GT Worldbuilding)
> 
> Sorry, but the Domain of Deneb astrographically contains Reft Sector, in
> which the Islands lie. The Imperium may nit have occupied them up to MT,
> but they are within the Domain's boundary. Like that small African State
in
> the middle of South Africa whose name escapes me...
> 

This must come as a shock to the Darrians, the Sword Worlds, the Federation
of Arden, and all the Zhodani and non-aligned worlds within those same
boundaries, not to mention the Solomani worlds in the Domain of Sol.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:42:09 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

> From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> 
> I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those
> desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
> pop turrets.

I just duplicated the manner in which the existing sensors were built in
the bridges included in GT. 

> This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
> (1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
> it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to cover
> 360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just install these?
> (Especially in the case of AEMS; the image of a single mechanically-scanned
> radar dish in a turret seems amazingly primitive)
> (2) Why pop turrets rather than normal turrets? Is it for protection? (Is
> there any way to hit a popped sensor?) Or streamlining? (What's the
> streamlining of a sensor?)

1) Hmm, I'll have to check my copy of Vehicles (not handy here) and get
back to you on that one.

2) I assumed it was for protection and streamlining.  Sensor arrays do
not appear to be streamlined (or I can't find the location in Vehicles
where it deals with this...)

> It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single
> tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than
> flat phased arrays all over its hull...

I don't think Vehicles have given the same thought and consideration
towards modern/futuristic sensor arrays...house rules perhaps?

> Bruce

Regards,
- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:33:17 PST
From: "Clay Taylor" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: IMTU codes explained

The IMTU codes are explained at 
http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Lists/IMTU.html

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:17:48 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Guinness

steve daniels wrote:

> Ob. Trav.,  seems likely to me that there would be a market for one-food
> diet product in the Traveller universe.
>
> NeoGuinness!  10 pints a day is provides all the necessary life-sustaining
> nutrients you need.
>
> More realistically, a survival drink designed to provide all the nutrients
> electrolytes, etc., to sustain life in harsh situations.  Can be consumed in
> a vacsuit drink tube, or in easy-opening can.  Now Guinness-flavored!

That is scary Guinness flavored Ensure.

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:19:04 -0800
From: Ndege Diamond <nezach@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS sensors: fields of view and pop turrets

At 08:51 AM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I've been noticing that everyone who designs a GURPS ship - even those 
>desiging battleships - puts the sensors, both active and passive, into
>pop turrets.
>
>This seems a little odd, and leads to a few questions:
>(1) What's the field of view of a typical sensor? Is it narrow enough that
>it has to be in a pop turret? How many fixed sensors would you need to cover
>360 degrees (or 4pi steradians, in 3d)? Why don't people just install these?
>(Especially in the case of AEMS; the image of a single mechanically-scanned
>radar dish in a turret seems amazingly primitive)

Typicaly GURPS sensors face one direction (forward, left, up, down,
starboard, aft, etc).
To get spherical coverage around a starship you would need 6 sensors or 2
sensors in universial turrets. It goes without saying that kilo for kilo 2
sensors in turrets weigh less than 6 fixed.  And if you want redundent
sensors. . .

>(2) Why pop turrets rather than normal turrets? Is it for protection? (Is
>there any way to hit a popped sensor?) Or streamlining? (What's the 
>streamlining of a sensor?) 

Both I would think.  Also it isn't that the sensor makes a ship less
streamlined it's the turret that it is mounted in that decreases it's
atmospheric speed if it isn't retracted.  Not that you would necessarily
retract it any time you enter an atmosphere but it is nice to have options.

>It just seemed odd that a 200,000 dTon battleship would have one single 
>tiny radar in a retractable mechanically-scanned turret, rather than 
>flat phased arrays all over its hull...

GURPS vehicles doesn't differentiate between phased arrays and mechanically
scanning sensors (part of it's 'genericness' I guess).  But even if it did
I would assume that you would want a sensor that would be inside your armor
envelope rather than covering the surface of your hull.

Ndege Diamond

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:50:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

Glenn Grant writes:

>What bugs me about this argument (that there shouldn't be high-pop/insidious
>atmosphere worlds a parsec away from low pop garden worlds) 

What bugs me about that statement is that it ignores a point that I've tried
several times to get across. It's not one high-population hellhole next to
a low-population eden that bothers me, it's _50_ high-population hellholes
next to 50 low-population edens.

>...is that it embodies a completely erroneous assumption: that high-pop
>worlds all result from high immigration. That's crazy.

It's also wrong. I don't make that assumption. I do make the assumption that
_everything else being equal_ people will prefer worlds where life support
is cheap to worlds where it is expensive.

Sure, I don't think that every thing else is always equal. Sometimes a ship
misjumps and stick you in a system with a crappy world (Of course, misjump
colonies on crappy worlds would have greater chances of failure than on
friendly worlds, but some could beat the odds). Sure, some hellholes have
resources that compensate for the increased life support problems. But then
again, some edens have rich resources AND are great places to live.

>Sure, there are worlds that the Imperium is putting great effort into
>colonizing, with very large ships full of low-berthed colonists, but
>this is not how Pop 7 or Pop 9 worlds come about!

Pop 7 you might get that way, but hardly pop 9, agreed.

>Really high populations obviously result from high population growth rates
>- -- either due to high birth rates or low mortality or long lifespans. Maybe
>the local conditions aren't great, the atmosphere is unbreathable, there
>isn't much water, etc., but most human populations expand exactly as fast
>as they are able (often faster than resources can support -- see Malthus).

The problem with that is that if that was true (which it most definitely
can't be in the Traveller universe (see below)) then that simply means that
all the LOW-population worlds are wildly unlikely.

>People *like* to have lots of kids, whether its sensible to have them or
>not.

So why do some countries on Earth today approach zero population growth?
 
>Even if millions of people can afford to pull up stakes and move to a
>garden world, individually or en masse, it's highly unlikely that such
>emigration is going to make the slightest dent in the population growth
>rate. In fact, birth rates might even *increase* to offset emigration; the
>people left behind might think the exodus leaves more resources for them to
>have more kids!

You miss the point. It's not why the hell-hole has a high population, it's
why the eden world is low population. If population expansion is as inevitable
as you claim, why did the people who settled the eden world not expand to a
lot more than the population of the hell-hole? They have the same procreative
imperatives and a much more survivable environment.
 
>Further, most of these high-pop worlds have probably been inhabited since
>at least the Rule of Man, maybe even since the Ziru Sirka.

Not in the Spinward Marches. In -1500 the _only_ worlds with human populations
was Darrian, Algine, Vanejen and 'a few Zhodani worlds'.

>A lot can happen over 1500 years.

It dosen't take that long if you practice unrestricted breeding. If you have
a population growth of 3% pa. you get a doubling of the population in about 
24 years. Slightly higher than that and you get a 10-doubling ever century.
Start with 10,000 people (a not unreasonable size of a colony expedition, and
you reach population level 9 in six centuries. But it's actually worse than
that. If the colony is composed mostly of young couples, you get a completely 
skewed population growth for the first 30 or 40 years and can easily get a
10-doubling in that time. Add a small steady stream of immigrants and most
worlds can reach pop 9 in 4 centuries or so. And, of course, colonies with
more than 10,000 initial members is perfectly possible (The original Tarsus
colony was 19,000 odd people).

Bottom line: The history of Charted Space only makes sense if unrestricted
breeding is the exception rather than the rule among most of the societies
there, especially the starfaring ones. (And that most emphatically includes
the Aslans!)

Of course, if you breed faster than you can expand your capacity to support
t6he population, you run into a natural limit to growth. And such a limit is
more likely to apply on worlds where you have to build your life support
systems than on worlds where the air is breathable and food can be grown
from the soil. In other words, a high-population garden world is no surprise,
merely a world where they have forgotten the lessons of history. But a high-
population hellhole is a world that has beaten tremendous odds and made huge
investments. Of course there should be some such worlds. But does it make
sense that there are exactly as many high-population hellholes as high-
population edens? I think not.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #137
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 138



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Personal identification, etc.
Ancients vs Droyne (was Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere)
Re: Atmospheric taint
re: Top 10 GT Starships
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Alien biology question...
Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere
Re: Atmospheric taint
Re: Laser fire
Re: Alien biology question  LONG
Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.
Re: Personal identification, etc.
Re: Alternate Travellers
Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler
Re: *The Legacy of Heorot*
re:Outrim Void
re: Domain of Deneb
Re: Errors and omissions in an Atlas
re:Outrim Void
re: Errors and Omissions in an Atlas
re: A Seat in the Game
Re: Outrim void?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:16:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

Robert O'Connor writes:

>Re surgery :-
>Yes, it is possible at TL 1, even TL 0. Success rates are not too good
>though.... especially without anaesthesia, analgesics and somewhat more
>scrupulous antisepsis than 'boiling water' (though Vland would pose a
>notable exception to the last requirement).

So who says that anestesia is unavailable at TL 1? And the _concept_ of
scrupulous antisepsis is not TL related. The question is: What technology
is necessecary to implement scrupulous antisepsis _once you have the idea_?
If you can do it at TL 1, then it is TL 1, not TL 4, even if it didn't
occur _On Earth_ until the Age of Reason.
 
You may need a microscope to discover germ theory on your own, but you don't
need any technology to have it explained to you.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:37:11 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Ancients vs Droyne (was Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere)

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote

> >I know the ancients weren't early droyne.  Terraforming doesn't 
> >require the ancients per se, though they could have done it too.
> 
> I suppose I shouldn't be dogmatic about it, but my impression is that 
> the Droyne didn't do much that they weren't told to do by the 
> Ancients. YMMV.

This answer is cannon.  In Adv 12 (IIRC) Secret of the Ancients the
history of the Ancients says that when Yaskodray was trying out various
races as servants Droyne had insufficient initative, humans were
independent, Vargr were way more trouble then they worth so that
Grandfather finally went with androids.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:05:19 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric taint

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> > What we decided was that the Taint label is a warning. Some things 
> > don't fit perfectly into the system, but when you have 8 digits to 
> > describe a world, and breathing the local air is a problem, what else can you do?
> 
> How about coming up with a classification system not based on the 
> outdated theory that computer memory is expensive?

Planetary UPP's are not short so they fit better in the computer,
planetary UPP's are short because thre Imperium has tens of thousands of
planets & needs to be able to _simply_ classify them.  It also has
trillions of sophonts whose time is valuable & can get some information
about the planet from the UPP.  If the charecteres want more info they
can always hit the more button & the computer will provide more [if it
has it], the UPP is just the best place too start.

IMTU [Milieu 1100] they are backed up to hard copy, which does have
space limitations, anyway.  Most ships have a 3,000 page book, which
looks something like the 1 volume photoreduced edition of the OED, with
stats for all the planets on paper, just in case.

Second Survey Data, Imperium and Surrounds, reduced data version.
Cr 100 3 kg TL A (printed on very thin plastic pages) 

It comes in a fairly sturdy case with a magnifying glass.  The book is
heavy enough to be used as a club [+1 DiffMod because books dont have
convenient handholds] in case you need/want to whap someone/something up
along side of the head with it.

This is the version charecters can use to look stuff up in when the
computers are down.  IMTU better shiops will have a set on the bridge, 1
in the ships locker & 1 on ships vehicles, of any, lifeboats will
definately have a copy.

It is also neat because you can justify whatever [beyond UPP} you, as
ref, want to leave out by claiming it was edited for space.  This book
has a certain resemblance to a less whimsical version of The Hitchikers
Guide to the Galaxy.  [For those of you who dont recall Earths entry was
due to be updated from "Harmless" to Mostly Harmless" for example.]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:09:03 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Top 10 GT Starships

My biggest recommendation for GT: Starships : the 400tn Patrol Cruiser
from Classic Traveller Book 3.

This ship has never had a set of deckplans that was official, or even
widely accepted. Inclusion of this ship with a good deck layout would
be a real attraction - and give a good reason for non-GURPS
Traveller fans to buy the book.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:10:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

In mail you write:

> From: Bruce Johnson 
>> That place in (Tanzania, Rwanda, South Africa, Uganda??? Somwhere in
>> there) where they have evidence of a natural uranium fission
>> runaway...'twas a long time ago, but they're pretty sure it was a
>> natural occurance of a critical mass of U-238...
>
> Nah, it was Avery nuking a timetravelling Virus....
>
> Seriously, though, do you have a reference for this?  I hadn't heard of it
> before, and it sounds really cool.  Hmm, Call of Cthulhu, Champions,
> anything with time travel, and, of course, it could happen on other worlds 
> too, maybe while the PCs are on world, so they have to investigate...

No reference on hand, but it appears to have operated during the rainy
season. Rainwater would seep into the rocks and slow down the naturally
produced neutrons enough to start a chain reaction. It'd keep running
until it ran out of water, and then "shut down" until the next rainy
season.

Eventually the concentration of fissionables dropped too low to sustain
a reaction.

They identified it because a rich vein that *looked* like it was
getting richer started yeilding *less* uranium. And when they analyzed
the ore in detail, they found the fission by-products.

So not only did the reactor operate on its own, but the wastes stayed
put. 

It'd be a moderately rare occurence. It takes a pretty rich deposit
*and* has to be fairly early in a planet's lifetime (some the
fissionables haven't decayed naturally all that much). 

Still, it'd tend to happen in exactly the sort of place people would be
looking for. A *rich* deposit of uranium. And if you lay the deposit
out right, the first hint they'll have is a while after rainy season
starts.

Possible indications:

1. miners get sick (lethal dose). This is because if their exposure
   increases fast enough to make them sick *before* the regular check
   of their film badges, they'll have had to get enough of a dose to
   kill them.
2. exposure badges tested at end of week (or is it end of shift?) show
   *huge* doses. Anybody know how often they check badges at uranium
   mines? Anyway, odds are that the miners *will* get really sick
   unless they got lucky on how fast the radiation increased versus
   when the badges were checked. But they shouldn't die.
3. they've gone to the extra expense of having actual radiation
   monitoring gear in the mine instead of just relying on film badges.
   The monitors would show a sharp rise in background and it'd keep
   rising for quite a bit (depends on exactly how close the the
   "reactor" the mine has gotten)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:34:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question...

In mail you write:

> Basically what happened, is that _b_illions of years ago, the percentage
> of U235 was high enough in these deposits that ordinary water would act
> as a moderator, rather than heavy water. This allowed a fission reaction
> to build up and sustain itself.

An important note here. This sort of thing is related to an interesting
safety concern when storing refined fissionables. 

The human *body* can act as a moderator. There has been at least one
case where blocks of fissionable were placed such that they were "safe"
(ie didn't interact dangerously with each other) but *became* dangerous
when an unfortunate technician stepped between them. 

Basicly the fast neutrons being emitted were slowed enough in passing
thru him to stimulate extra fissions in the piece on the opposite side.
The result tends to be a rather quick "flash" reaction as the neutron
levels cascade rapidly to the point where the other radiation causes a
*visible* bluish "flash" in the air. 

Needless to say, the person who triggers such a reaction is dead, even
though he probably won't show any symptoms for 15 minutes to several
hours. 

I don't *think* a deposit is likely to be rich enough for this to
happen as you walk down a narrow tunnel, but I wouldn't swear to it
(You'd probably have to have to walls seeping water to provide extra
moderation, which means there's likely enough activity for a rad meter
to trigger)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:50:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Worldbuilding and atmosphere

In mail you write:

>>I live in Canada's most populous urban conglomeration. It's definately not
>>the best location in terms of climate, air quality, scenery, natural
>>resources...
>>People move here because people already live here. Services exist, markets
>>exist, and so forth. Many people don't like living here, but are here
>>because that's where they could get a job. If they won the lottery they'd
>>leave tomorrow.
>
> Dang right!
>
> What bugs me about this argument (that there shouldn't be
> high-pop/insidious atmosphere worlds a parsec away from low pop garden
> worlds) is that it embodies a completely erroneous assumption: that
> high-pop worlds all result from high immigration. That's crazy. Sure, there
> are worlds that the Imperium is putting great effort into colonizing, with
> very large ships full of low-berthed colonists, but this is not how Pop 7
> or Pop 9 worlds come about!
>
> Really high populations obviously result from high population growth rates
> -- either due to high birth rates or low mortality or long lifespans. Maybe
> the local conditions aren't great, the atmosphere is unbreathable, there
> isn't much water, etc., but most human populations expand exactly as fast
> as they are able (often faster than resources can support -- see Malthus).
> People *like* to have lots of kids, whether its sensible to have them or
> not.
>
> Even if millions of people can afford to pull up stakes and move to a
> garden world, individually or en masse, it's highly unlikely that such
> emigration is going to make the slightest dent in the population growth
> rate. In fact, birth rates might even *increase* to offset emigration; the
> people left behind might think the exodus leaves more resources for them to
> have more kids!
<snip>
> Finally, a" garden world" might not be so idyllic as the UWP seems to
> suggest. Sure, you can breathe the air, but maybe the indigenous life forms
> are based on poisonous left-handed proteins. Perhaps the climate sucks real
> bad. Maybe the rotation rate is such that hurricanes are a constant threat.
> Maybe the axial tilt is extreme. Maybe the planet is constantly pummelled
> by asteroids and comets. Maybe the local government doesn't allow
> immigration.

Hell, that "garden world" isn't all that attractive. There aren't any
shopping malls. No cities. How many urban dwellers would want to move
to somewhere that's a week from anything much more advanced than an old
fashioned general store, doesn't have indoor plumbing, has poor
schools, and you have to do *hard* work *outdoors*.

Pioneer types aren't *really* as common as we think. And they tend to
come from the areas that are *already* on the fringe of "civilization"
rather than from the big cities. 

The "city folk" who *do* make good pioneers tend to be from the slums,
not from the middle class. And a *lot* of them will die.

Just consider how few folks in the crowded parts of the US want to move
to *real* small towns (as opposed to ones just beyond the suburbs of a
metro area) much less to a *wilderness* like the Alaskan or Canadian
"bush". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:00:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Atmospheric taint

In mail you write:

>>
>> What we decided was that the Taint label is a warning. Some things don't 
> fit
>> perfectly into the system, but when you have 8 digits to describe a world,
>> and breathing the local air is a problem, what else can you do?
>
> How about coming up with a classification system not based on the outdated
> theory that computer memory is expensive?

Heck, it doesn't have to be based on that at all. You use brief codes
to convey info *fast*. Such as in a listing where space is at a
premium. 

I expect that a lot of "interfaces would display a starmap, and
depending on the scale, either display the UWP right alongside (or
under) the name, or is more crowded, display the name and UWP as you
move the "cursor" from star to star. 

If you pull up a display of a *system*, there'll be more info on the
mainworld. If you pull up a display of the world, then you get the
*detailed* info. Probably hypertext linked so the level of detail for
various items depends on which ones you are interested in. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:07:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Laser fire

In mail you write:

> Would the ionisation trail from a laser show on RADAR?
            ^^^^^^^^^^

Yes. So do the ones from meteors. 

Being ionized, the air reflects sufficiently high radio frequencies. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:11:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question  LONG

In mail you write:

> Ian wrote:
>
>>          But then, DNA is not the only genetic material here on
>>         Terra (RNA is used in some viruses). Perhaps your race
>>         relies on a "sturdier" molecule to encode genetic
>>         information. Proteins? Polysaccharides? Nylon? I need
>>         a chemist here.

Let's see. Hal Clement suggested Zeolites (an odd sort of long chain
silicate that has lots of places for chemical groups to "nest" and
react). They actually *are* used as or in conjunction with a lot of
catalysts. So they might be able to act as "keys" for synthesizing
protiens. Or even for synthesizing RNA. They'd be a *lot* bulkier than
DNA. Which makes for larger cells, but also makes for better radiation
immunity. 

It's also been theorized that certain silicate(?) compounds/structures
found in clays may have acted as templates for early protien formation.
If so, maybe in the high rad environment, the first cells kept a chunk
of the "clay" with them. This could lead to a sort of "silicate"
backboned genetic material. 

NO, I don't have references for the clay idea. I read it in something.
Possibly an old Scientific American.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:20:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-Terracentric unit of interstellar distance.

In mail you write:

> | Since 1967 the SI unit for time, the second, has been
> | defined as exactly 9,192,631,770 periods of radio
> | radiation emitted as a result of gyroscopic precession
> | of the outermost electron in undisturbed cesium atoms.

Not quite. You got the number right. But it's the transition between
two hyperfine levels of the ground state of Cs-133.

<yech!>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:28:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Personal identification, etc.

In mail you write:

> At 02:03 am 2/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>societies that are not interdicted. Just as surgery is _possible_ as
>>soon as you can make a sharp knife and boil water. (So IMO surgery
>>is TL 1 and not TL 4).
>
>         Scratch the boiling water. All it took was the ability to flake
> knife blades. Obsidian flakes are incredibly sharp AND naturally
> sterile when fresh. The rock is so impermeable that the inside of the
> rock is as clean of life as possible--it formed from molten rock,
> after all, and nothing has been able to get in since.

In fact, since blades get dull with use, it'd be *natural* to use a
freshly made blade for surgery, because even a "savage" will realize
that he wants the sharpest blade he can get for this sort of thing!

A common failing is to think that "low tech" = "stupid". I think that
disabusing players of this can be both educational for the players, and
great fun for the GM!

Just one example:
"Glass beads" are seen as valuable because making beads is one hell of
a tedious, *difficult* practice. So natives aren't being dumb to accept
them. 

Wait til the players find out that the "rare" gemstones they've been
trading the beads to the natives for are so common that the kids used
them for marbles, but only when they couldn't manage to get something
"better". :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:07:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alternate Travellers

In mail you write:

>>From: "Robert Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
>>Subject: Alternate Travellers
>>
>>The discussion of parallel universe got me thinking about alternate
>>traveller universe. How this one?
>>
>>1930's Vilani pick up massive increase in radio transmissions from a G2
>>class System (V9234) rimward of Agidda.
> ...
>>1946    The expedition come back with a report of a world that is capable of
>>exploiting nuclear engery and has over two billion humans. In addition
>>several of the system moons and planetoids are rich in minerals.
>
>   I kind of liked the idea of doing something like the Aftermath! suggestion
> of setting a campaign post-Martian Conquest (tripods, heat rays, black smoke,
> & all), except using a (small, initially) Vilani response from an unusually
> pro-active sector governor. 
>
>   The fact that I was reading GURPS: Atomic Horror at the time may have
> influenced me in this respect.

Heck, just use Turtledove's "World War" series. Have the aliens come
from the direction *away* from the Vilani. Have the humans run into the
Vilani when they start exploring on their own.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:46:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler

In mail you write:

> a) Methane is trapped in the seabeds in clathrates (23 water molecules
> making a cage around 4 methane molecules). Clathrate beds are found
> throughout the world, and those in the Arctic Ocean are tens of metres
> deep, and hundreds of kilometres across.

You've reminded me of something I read somewhere. They clathrates are a
sort of reddish orange color, and look (and act) rather like an odd
sort of ice. 

As I recall, they are stable at temps somewhat above 4C, which, being
the temp at which water is densest, is the temp of just about all deep
sea regions. 

All you need to form the stuff is methane (bacteria in a low oxygen
environment such as the sea bottom produce lots of it as they break
down organic materials in the bottom "ooze"), water, and moderate
pressures (also found on the sea bottom). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:36:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: *The Legacy of Heorot*

In mail you write:

> A few weeks ago, during the discussion of low berths and the hazards
> inherent therein, someone mentioned *The Legacy of Heorot*, by Niven,
> Pournelle, and Barnes.  Whoever that was - thank you!  I found it at the
> base library; finished it a couple days ago, and am now reading *Beowulf's
> Children*.  Good books!
>
> James
> wondering how to get grendels into a non-colonial Traveller game....

When you finish reading "Beowulf's Children" I expect that you'll have
several ideas.

Spolier warning! Do not read below this unless you've read Beowulf's
Children or don't care about the ending.


I expect that once the colony either redevelops space travel, or gets
re-contacted, any exploration teams they send out will be include
"intelligent grendels". I'd sure like to have a couple with *me* if I
was exploring an new planet. 

And cooling suits for them won't be *that* hard to make. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:18:14 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re:Outrim Void

Doug Sinclair wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I just picked up BtC.  The sidebars make several references to the
"Outrim void" which seems to be somewhere rimward of Glisten.  I've
never heard of this before -- is it something I'm missing from the other
Gurps Traveller books?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Outrim Void" is a colloquial term used for the extra-Imperial territories
rimward of the Spinward Marches - in particular, Egyrn subsector of
the Trojan Reach. It's identified by the average Imperial citizen as
a hideout for pirates and renegades (according to the CT adventure
Leviathan, involving an exploratory merchant vessel).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:34:17 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Domain of Deneb

Christopher B. Thrash wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Sorry, but the Domain of Deneb astrographically contains Reft Sector, in
> which the Islands lie. The Imperium may nit have occupied them up to MT,
> but they are within the Domain's boundary. 

This must come as a shock to the Darrians, the Sword Worlds, the Federation
of Arden, and all the Zhodani and non-aligned worlds within those same
boundaries, not to mention the Solomani worlds in the Domain of Sol.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Imperial Domains were established before the areas they covered were
fully incorporated into the Imperium - such incorporation was one of the
main tasks of the Archduke of each domain. The boundries of a domain
were based on a grouping of sectors, which is astrographic rather than
political - basically, the Archduke was given a block of sectors and
told to take it. In several domains, the Imperial border stabilized before
the domain was completely incorporated - usually due to outside forces.

The Domain of Deneb was the last domain established, the very
last to get an Archduke (not 'till the height of the Rebellion), and will
never be entirely incorporated - there is little need for more expansion,
and (at least in the early 1100's) there are strong interstellar states
beyond the borders.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:41:43 -0500
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Errors and omissions in an Atlas

>The authors misspelled the name of my hometown. A river that created
>settlements from New York state to Chesapeake Bay was missing...

I've heard somewhere that map makers do such things deliberatly as
copywrite
protection vs photocopiers, but this is all I can remember.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:47:12 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re:Outrim Void

Walter Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Outrim Void" is a colloquial term used for the extra-Imperial territories
rimward of the Spinward Marches - in particular, Egyrn subsector of
the Trojan Reach.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For those without the maps, Egyrn subsector is the next one to rimward
of District 268, Pax Rulin is the subsector rimward of Glisten - both
are just across the edge of the Spinward Marches map. Pax Rulin is
used as a jumping-off point for the Leviathan adventure I mentioned, it
has some Imperial planets in it.

If you can get Jim Vassilakos' Galactic program, he has all these
subsectors detailed. Galactic is an excellent program for displaying
and even generating (CT style) subsectors, it has most published
subsectors in it's library. I think you can find it at
http://members.aol.com/jimvassila/progs.htm

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:51:31 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Errors and Omissions in an Atlas

Alan M. Nuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The authors misspelled the name of my hometown. A river that created
>settlements from New York state to Chesapeake Bay was missing...

I've heard somewhere that map makers do such things deliberatly as
copywrite
protection vs photocopiers, but this is all I can remember.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's possible, but the error they made - "Binhampton" instead of
"Binghamton" - is so common that one of our *local* newspapers
has made it.

Walt Smith
ex-Bingham(no 'p')tonian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:27:56 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: A Seat in the Game

At 03:37 PM 12/02/99 -0500, you wrote:

>The pressure is significant. Several of my old friends are coming up
>next month for a gaming convention in my town (O-Con X), they are
>begging me to run a game. I have this feeling that, with a hundred
>plus gamers running dozens of games, it's entirely up to me whether
>these half-dozen friends of mine have a good time at the con or not.
>
>Ah, the pitfalls of fame....<G>
>
>Walt Smith
>

        Hi, Walt!
        I have a gaming group which runs the width of Canada (we're all
Reservists, or bf/gf's of the Original Reservist).  Its a yearly thing that
they arrange their leave/ vaction schedules so we can all get together for a
weekend blitz in July or August and keep on with the AD&D game we started.
The game has been running since the summer of 1988.
        You are correct that as the ref, you wind up feeling almost
responsible for the amount of fun your friends have in this situation.
However, its always a great feeling when we get together and I do manage to
surprise 'em or wow 'em with a plot twist.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:45:59 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Outrim void?

Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.xom> wrote,
>I just picked up BtC.  The sidebars make several references to the
>"Outrim void" which seems to be somewhere rimward of Glisten.  I've
>never heard of this before -- is it something I'm missing from the other
>Gurps Traveller books?

It was described in CT Adventure 4, _Leviathan_.  From the Library Data:

"Colloquial name for the region to the rimward of the Spinward Marches
consisting of many small empires and independent worlds. The region is
largely unknown to the civilian population of the Imperium, and is
regarded with suspicion by the average citizen due to its being a
natural haunt for corsairs and any who wish to escape Imperial justice.
Many Outrim worlds are believed to have been settled in the great Terran
age of expansion known as the Ramshackle Empire, and since isolated from
other human contact, whilst others have retained links with either the
Imperium or the Zhodani Consulate, some as client states." 

There's more info elsewhere in the book, but I'm not going to quote it
all!

John
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #138
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 139



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: *The Legacy of Heorot*
Re: A World Without Death
Re: A World without Death
Re: Atmospheric taint
Reffing Styles and MTU Threat Levels (Re: A World without Death) (Long)
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
Re: Starships
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Outrim void
Apollo 13? 
Re: Outrim void 
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: IMTU codes explained
Re: Old Fasa
Re: Old Fasa
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: EMP Cannon
re: Top 10 GT Starships
Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:24:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: *The Legacy of Heorot*

At 09:00 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:

>wondering how to get grendels into a non-colonial Traveller game....

*spoilers for anyone who hasn't read _Beowulf's Children_*





Pick an interdicted world.  That's where the IISS is monitoring the
emerging Grendal culture.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:30:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

At 04:30 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Hey! I disagree. Vasquez was a PC! She died heroically though. Hudson was a
>PC too, but the GM couldn't bear to put up with his ceaseless whining!

Hudson had to be a PC, since only two players could come up with this
exchange:

Hudson: "Six weeks?  Man, we're not going to last six hours!"

Ripley: "Hudson, this little girl managed to survive a whole lot longer
than six weeks on her own."

Hudson: "Great!  Put her in charge."
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:34:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

At 12:40 PM 2/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Clif wrote:
>> 
>> Combat and war are said to be harsh.  They should be dangerous.

>> P.S.:  That the characters all made it through without injury shows that
>>if the books were based on an RPG session, they made good die rolls.

In my collection of odd real-life combat, I have the case of a police
officer who got into a shoot out with an armed suspect.  Both combatants
emptyied there weapons, at which time the suspect surrenderd.  The officer
was in the front seat of his patrol car, the suspect in the back seat.  Not
one shot hit.

>I think the point is that RPG's tend towards the cinematic, rather than
>the realistic as they are presumed to be escapist fun, not real-life
>models of life as other people.

<snip>

>What I have found happening with GM's who play the realistic 'War and
>combat kills...life sucks...deal with it' kind of game end up selecting
>for players who deal with creating new characters all the time or find
>ways of playing without doing combat.

Which is why we make it clear in ACQ that the system is deadly, and should
only be used for very important combats.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:39:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric taint

At 03:00 AM 2/13/99 PST, you wrote:

>If you pull up a display of a *system*, there'll be more info on the
>mainworld. If you pull up a display of the world, then you get the
>*detailed* info. Probably hypertext linked so the level of detail for
>various items depends on which ones you are interested in. 

Oddly enough, this what I'm doing with Lunion..  which will be done soon, I
promise.

Each world is mapped, and each diget of the UWP is expanded to include
details like surface gravity, atmospheric makeup, number ans sizes of
cities, details of governemnet and culture, etc.

Lunion will be a living set of pages, since I plan to keep expanding the
information for as long as I keep having good ideas.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:54:00 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Reffing Styles and MTU Threat Levels (Re: A World without Death) (Long)

At 04:57 PM 12/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson writes:
>"As a GM, I have killed off player characters before, but I 
>make every possible allowance up to and including completely 
>disregarding the rolls and rules to keep the PC's alive."
>
>	I am in full agreement with this policy, and have
>	followed it myself, but I always avoid letting the 
>	players know this. There is something to be said for
>	keeping the "fear of god" (NOT fear of the GM, rather
>	fear for their character's lives in the game). I never
>	enjoyed playing in a game in which my character's 
>	survival was assured. Therefore I have let PCs die if
>	circumstances warranted (ie they ignored big "don't do 
>	this" signs, took rediculous risks, etc.). In this way, 
>	my players feel that their actions determine their fates.
>
>Ian

        My Cr0.02.  My FTF-players are currently in a "spin-off scenario"
from Chamax Plague/ Horde.  They encountered one of the sub-light sleeper
ships.  I wasn't operating a UN transponder, was *huge* compared to anything
they have ever seen (1200dtons), and generally looking "not made by human
hands".  They started seeing MCr counters rolling at the prospect of
"salvaging" this monster.
        So, they figured out how to get aboard.  They had thier combat
programer "hack" into the ship's computer core.  The first warning should
have been when I mentioned thier PLSS units were warning them about
difficulty keeping them warm.  That and the fact that the computer they were
hacking was *helping* them get on board.  So, they managed to shut down the
Molecular Suppresion Field Generator, not really knowing what it did.  All
they knew was that the Ship's Computer refused to let them go any further
without it being deactivated.  They walked by several dozen borwn hairy
balls covered in frost at random interrvals throughout the ship;  didn't
really examine them much.
        Got themselves all the way down to the engineering deck (bottom of
ship, only *1* route in or out).  By now, the interior hull temp was a balmy
12c.  Which meant the first questing hunter stumbled upon them.  They hosed
it (they all are packing laser rifles, and two NPC's have mini-guns).  No
big deal.  Then the second one showed up.  Then 3 & 4.  5,6 & 7.  Now, the
players are getting a little annoyed, so they booby trap the top of the
stairs with a willy-pete charge;  that'll burn for 5 mins, and keep the
annoying little acid-spitters at bay.  BOOM goes the charge.
        Bad demo roll;  most of the stairs (the only way OUT) is now plugged
with WP at ~2000c.
        So, of course, the Chamax have started burning through the ceiling
to get to them.  The first one got in to the area and immediately almost
killed one of the NPC Marines.  They hosed it.  They are all making END
rolls to not pass out from heat exhaustion (space suits can't bleed heat
very well with that firestorm in the stairs warming the air).  We wrapped
with the group getting ready for the next *two* to jump down in to the room
and the combat porgrammer announcing that the Ship's Computer had just told
her there were *300* occupants at time of launch.  There are *12* members in
the team.  They also just managed to turn the Molecular Suppresion Field
Generator back on.
        They are, in the vernacular, intercoursed.  They were repeated given
hints that they should be much more circumspect.  They ignored them.  So, I
am probably going to kill every NPC in the party (1/2 the team, all friends)
and badly injure at least two of the player's characters.  But, unless
something goes horribly wrong, I'll probably let them escape with thier
hides and a good scare.

        My point ( I do have one) is that this is the first big adventure
for the group, first time we done Traveller in a while.  So, there isn't
*any* point in killing them.  The characters won't learn anything and the
players will get discouraged.  Slaughtering the NPC compatriots and scaring
the players wittless as they realize how *badly* they misjuged the situation
- - that's fair dinkum.  If they make this level of mistake again, then I
might kill on or two characters and slaughter every NPC in the group.  Three
times, and the 1/2 the NPC's will live and 1/2 the players won't.
        I agree with Cliff's premise that if they player's characters are
never in mortal danger, they don't sweat nearly as much as they ought.
Using NPC's as "monster demo subjects" is a great plot device, though, in
terms of driving home that the players are in danger.  Also, from a GM POV,
character creation is disruptive to game flow.  I prefer to avoid it...  but
if they just won't listen or start thinking "only the NPC's buy it, we're
exempt", then its time to drop one or two and let an NPC survive.
        That's IMHO, IMTU, YMMV.  YAAA.

        --Michel


	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:02:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

At 12:02 PM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't agree.  The GM's job is mostly to present opposition.  Obstacles and
>opposition that are then overcome deserve rewards, doled out by the GM.

That sounds like a way to get "Knights of the Dinner Table."  

>A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
>NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
>battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity.

A GM has to be an advocate of good gaming.  In our Champions game, the GM
has to be aware that most of the villians we face are much more powerful
than we are.  He could easily wipe the floor with us, but instead makes
sure that each adventure has an "out" we can use to beat the villian.  It's
rarely easy, and always has us on the edge of our seats.

>No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
>there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
>have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).

You can have danger without an obligatory death.  If the players know you
consider the killing of their characters part of your job, they'll tend to
become less attached to their characters.  Death of a leading character
should be memorable.

Back to the Champions game.  Last August, the character I had played for
four years died.  Gadget started out as an annoying teen hero with an
unearthly ability to build and fix things.  He ended up a cybernetically
enchanced powerhouse.  I really liked and identified with this character.
We were fighting a villian who was trying to gate in a demonic army, and I
had to close a circut on the machine that was going to seal the gate.  The
GM called me into another room to explain that this would kill Gadget.  We
talked it over, and decided that it was best for the story.  So Gadget
grabbed the power cables, and held on just long enough...

William "Gadget" Rathbone, 1976-1998

We had a funeral for him, all the other players read euolgies from their
characters; it was a momentous occassion, and it really hit everyone.
That's how a PC death should be.

>A coach is ALWAYS on his team's side (otherwise, can he really be called a
>"coach"), but a GM is the advocate of the opposition and the creator and
>maintainer of his universe.  Failure to see this is beyond my comprehension.

But as Referee I can just keep throwing more and more stuff at you until I
"win."  Beat my pirates in their 400dt Corsair?  The next bunch has a
3000dt destoyer.  After that, an Azhanti High Lightning.

Gaming is a cooperative venture.  The Referee (or GM, or whatever) stage
manages and directs the action.  The players explore the GM's world.  In a
confrontational game like you describe, where's the fun?  If you just want
to kill things, might I suggest Melee?

>>Coach.  I'm just the coach.  I come up with the plays, schedule the
>>games, assign positions and even cut players sometimes.  But I want to
>>see my players have fun and win a few.

>Remind me not to play in your campaign... I'd get bored REAL QUICK!

Clif, in my current Traveller/CORPS game, we have gone close to two months
without a gunshot.  Last week, there was a five minute fistfight between
one player and an informant they think is two-timing them.  Sitting in my
in-box are six messages demanding that we go to a weekly schedule of play
rather than my preferred bi-weekly, and several inquiries about various
points in the campaign.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:50 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: A World without Death

In a message dated 2/12/99 2:47:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< but I make every possible allowance up to and including
 completely disregarding the rolls and rules to keep the PC's alive. 
  >>

	I think it is important to remember that RPG's are as much "G" as RP.   I
really try to avoid cheating either for or against the players in my game.
Recently I've even given up using a Ref Screen and make all combat rolls out
in the open in front of the players and let the chips fall where they may.
People are much more willing to accept the results that way  (and it really
does increase excitement level) when the results of combat are made to seem as
game-like as possible.   The biggest plus is that when the players win at a
combat or series of other oppossed tasks, and they know I would have let bad
things actually happen to the characters if they had failed, they get a bigger
sense of accomplishment or achievement--they "really" have won.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:37:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Loren Wiseman wrote:
 
> Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for 
> what ships you would like to see GT Starships deal with. We 
> will not be able to fill the book with deckplans, and there 
> is still time to be reasobably flexible with the outline, so 
> I wanted to get ideas from the fans...

1)  A 400-600 ton merchant - jump-2 or jump-3 drive.
2)  A big liner. 
3)  An Up Port orbital station.
4)  The 400 ton patrol cruiser.
5)  A destroyer.
6)  A yacht, like the Emperors.
7)  A system defense boat.
8)  An Ancients vessel.
9)  A deep exploration vessel, 1000-2000 tons.
10) 800 ton mercenary cruiser.

Terry Mixon


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:13:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

At 03:14 AM 2/12/99 PST, you wrote:

>Sniping becomes a whole different game when all it takes is *one* shot
>for them to pinpoint you.

One shot is all I need..

But seriously, a remore gun system might be the answer.  I set up the
weapon, scuttle off about 50m with the command unit (connected by a
fibre-optic cable) and take my shot from that position.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:00:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships

Michael Peters wrote:
> 

> 10) A factory ship or base to process ore brought to it by asteroid
> miners.

And that would be the "Crimson Short Person" class mining ship...? ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:10:52 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Voting to date:

Alien (non-Imperial, non-Zhodani) patrol corvette/frigate or SDB (5) 

Non-Imperial warship (4)
Large passenger liner (4)

Large freighter (3)
Imperial dreadnaught (3)
Imperial destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (3)
Imperial SDB/monitor (3)
Imperial frigate/patrol ship/corvette (3)
Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (3)
Space station or small highport w/modular components (3)
Yacht (3)

Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava class, perhaps J3) (2)
Old/low-tech merchant ship (2)
Imperial cruiser (around 20 ktons) (2)
Imperial carrier w/ fighters (2)
IISS survey cruiser (2)
Non-Imperial merchant or other civilian ship (2)

Two popular requests have already been included in GT: Alien Races I
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (pp 48-53)
	Vargr Corsair (p. 97)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:10:52 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Voting to date:

Alien (non-Imperial, non-Zhodani) patrol corvette/frigate or SDB (5) 

Non-Imperial warship (4)
Large passenger liner (4)

Large freighter (3)
Imperial dreadnaught (3)
Imperial destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (3)
Imperial SDB/monitor (3)
Imperial frigate/patrol ship/corvette (3)
Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (3)
Space station or small highport w/modular components (3)
Yacht (3)

Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava class, perhaps J3) (2)
Old/low-tech merchant ship (2)
Imperial cruiser (around 20 ktons) (2)
Imperial carrier w/ fighters (2)
IISS survey cruiser (2)
Non-Imperial merchant or other civilian ship (2)

Two popular requests have already been included in GT: Alien Races I
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (pp 48-53)
	Vargr Corsair (p. 97)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:52:31 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Outrim void

Thanks to all who explained the reference to me.  Unfortunately, my CT
collection does not extend to Leviathan.

I never realized the Zhodani would get that far rimward.  However, it
does seem reasonable.  While they have not fully colonized Foreven
(Iakr) there is no other large power in the area to stop them from
travelling through it at will.  From there it's not a long way to the
Trojan Reaches.  After all, the trade tables do say that the Zhodani
like Aslan stuff...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:12:25 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Apollo 13? 

Was rereading the "Prometheus Rising" material and the recent
"alternative" first contact timeline and had a most interesting idea. 

Now, we all know the official story - the recent movie did a better than
the usual hollywierd job of telling it. But see, the local Vilani did
notice our EM signature rising and sent a scout to investigate. Alas, as
the poor scout was sneaking in, their sensor op failed to notice
(Spectacular Failure on the task roll - under any system!) this small
non thrusting  ship leaving the primary world. 

Now space is big and it's really unlikely, but this poor little scout
ship clipped the side of the aluminum can we called a service module.
The crew of Apollo 13 were too busy trying to figure out what happened
to look right out the window, while they rushed to stabilize their
orbit. 

Meanwhile the Vilani scout is sent tumbling by this and in a moment of
irrational dfear that they are under attack they attempt to jump out -
way too deep in the gravity well...

A month or two later, when they haven't returned, the local governor
puts an interdiction on this strange little place and sends a report up
the chain. Said report is lost in the mists somewhere, so the central
authorities never hear that there is a problem until a century later at
a little mining outpost next to an interdicted world...

Just a passing fancy...

William


William Barnett-Lewis
wlewis@mailbag.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:18:38 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Outrim void 

> Thanks to all who explained the reference to me.  Unfortunately, my CT
> collection does not extend to Leviathan.
> 
> I never realized the Zhodani would get that far rimward.  However, it
> does seem reasonable.  While they have not fully colonized Foreven
> (Iakr) there is no other large power in the area to stop them from
> travelling through it at will.  From there it's not a long way to the
> Trojan Reaches.  After all, the trade tables do say that the Zhodani
> like Aslan stuff...

IIRC, there weren't any official Consulate states in the Void, but there 
*were* Zhodani client states and trading partners.  Even Imperial traders 
roamed outside the frontier looking for new places, new people, and a quick 
way to make a buck.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:35:35 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

>>Sniping becomes a whole different game when all it takes is *one* shot
>>for them to pinpoint you.
>One shot is all I need..
>But seriously, a remore gun system might be the answer.  I set up the
>weapon, scuttle off about 50m with the command unit (connected by a
>fibre-optic cable) and take my shot from that position.

Hell I want the one used in ST:DS9. Rifle with a mini transporter on the
flame guard to 'beam' the round right next to the target and a x-ray type
sight to 'look' through decks, deckheads, and bulkheads so you can snipe
from the safety of you locked room. Any of you gearheads  out there know if
some thing like it is possible (I don't own FF&S or FF&S2).
Wayne Ewart

wewart@home.com
ICQ # 22113294

This is the theater of life. Admission is free, but taxation is mortal. You
come when you can and leave when you must. The show is continues. Goodnight.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:40:08 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: IMTU codes explained

>The IMTU codes are explained at
>http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Lists/IMTU.html
Thank you
Wayne Ewart

wewart@home.com
ICQ # 22113294

This is the theater of life. Admission is free, but taxation is mortal. You
come when you can and leave when you must. The show is continues. Goodnight.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:18:10 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Old Fasa

>Does anyone have any idea where would be a good place to get ahold of some
>of the old FASA deckplans?  ISPMV Fenris, Adventure class ships, etc.?
Try  www.sentrybox.com
They have a large selection of gaming stuff and if its not on there list,
ask anyway, they just might have it.

Wayne Ewart
wewart@home.com ICQ # 22113294
tc++ tm !tn-- t4>+ tg ?tt ?to ru ge+ 3i+ jt- au+ st+ ls pi+ c ta- he+ kk++
hi+ as++ va+ dr so- zh- da++ sy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:18:10 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Old Fasa

>Does anyone have any idea where would be a good place to get ahold of some
>of the old FASA deckplans?  ISPMV Fenris, Adventure class ships, etc.?
Try  www.sentrybox.com
They have a large selection of gaming stuff and if its not on there list,
ask anyway, they just might have it.

Wayne Ewart
wewart@home.com ICQ # 22113294
tc++ tm !tn-- t4>+ tg ?tt ?to ru ge+ 3i+ jt- au+ st+ ls pi+ c ta- he+ kk++
hi+ as++ va+ dr so- zh- da++ sy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:59:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Wayne Ewart wrote:

> Hell I want the one used in ST:DS9. Rifle with a mini transporter on the
> flame guard to 'beam' the round right next to the target and a x-ray type
> sight to 'look' through decks, deckheads, and bulkheads so you can snipe
> from the safety of you locked room. Any of you gearheads  out there know if
> some thing like it is possible (I don't own FF&S or FF&S2).

Hmm...requires miniaturized teleportation. Teleportation is <riffle riffle
riffle> officially '?' Tl according to FFS1. Other souces place it at TL21
(iirc). That's for basic stuff. Putting it in a man-portable device would be
at least one or two TL's higher.

If someone's running around your Trav Universe with a TL-23 gun, you have
bigger problems than being shot with teleportation rifles. Namely, just
exactly how do you catch and kill that munchkin.

Of course, a man portable meson rifle would do the same thing...that's _only_
Tl 17 or so, but requires really precise shot placement, since it only does a
tiny amount of damage. (quite enough, however, if that damage is occuring _in_
the targets frontal lobes ;-)

This only if you don't have minimum tunnel lengths for meson weapons.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:50:35 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Does an EMP requires an atmosphere or not?
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:52:14 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: re: Top 10 GT Starships

At 07:09 AM 2/13/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>My biggest recommendation for GT: Starships : the 400tn Patrol Cruiser
>from Classic Traveller Book 3.
>
>This ship has never had a set of deckplans that was official, or even
>widely accepted. Inclusion of this ship with a good deck layout would
>be a real attraction - and give a good reason for non-GURPS
>Traveller fans to buy the book.
>
>Walt Smith
>
The only version of the deckplans I ever saw was in FASA's Adventure Class
Ships Vol. II.
The plans were for the Lurushaar Kilaalum Type T Patrol Cruiser.  This was
put together by the Keith brothers John Harshman and a few others whose
names fall back in the mists of Traveller antiquity, so as far as I am
concerned it was official.


Jimmy Simpson				nimrodd@fastlane.net
					nimrod@santech.com

Trust the computer industry to shorten "Year 2000" to Y2K. It was this
kind of thinking that caused the problem in the first place.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:45:44 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)

>No they don't exist, IIRC, as published canonical designs in 
>Traveller,but man-portable meson weapons certainly are possible with 
>FFS (don't remember offhand about FFS2)...as are plasma _pistols_. 
>Made one once, think I posted it to the list. It was a huge honking 
>pistol (0.5 m long, 2 or 3 kg IIRC) with the recoil from hell, but >it 
was a pistol, nonetheless. Did something like 6 or 8 dice of >damage, 
too.
>
>"Do you feel lucky, punk?" ;-)

At Trav-TL 12 it is possible to make a handgun with the following stats.

Dam:     6
Recoil:  2
Wt:      2.12 kg
Length:  28 cm

I designed at the request of my brother who was rolling (or role-ing) a 
law enforcement/agent type character while watching the film 
Bladerunner for a sort of X files/Dark skies adventure Im about 
to run (begining on Regina). 

If you have seen Bladerunner then you might remember the gun Harrison 
Ford uses in the movie. Its a very large calibre magnum automatic 
pistol (with a barrel to rival a shotgun). Of course my brother wanted 
something like this so I obliged (with a *WEG_).

If anyone is interested in stats then I will gladly post it to the list. 

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #139
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 140



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Grendels
Re: EMP Cannon
10 ship wishlist
Star Mercs Question
Patrol Cruiser (was re: Starships)
Campaign Summary: Reavers' Deep
Re: GMing philosophy
MT: Reavers' Deep campaign outline, part 2
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Grendels
Re: Campaign Summary: Reavers' Deep 
[WWW] Freelance Traveller Updated - 13 Feb 1999
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
PBEM Logs Mailing List
Re: A World without Death
Re: GMing Philosophy...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:48:53 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Grendels

Grendels could be introduced to an already-populated world by accident
(like the bugs in Chamax Plague), or they could inhabit one continent of a
world in teh abck country; the locals have the other continent explored and
settled, and are just starting on the new continent.

Or, the Grendels could be bio-engineering gone awry.

Steve Charlton


Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:00:44 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: *The Legacy of Heorot*

A few weeks ago, during the discussion of low berths and the hazards
inherent therein, someone mentioned *The Legacy of Heorot*, by Niven,
Pournelle, and Barnes.  Whoever that was - thank you!  I found it at the
base library; finished it a couple days ago, and am now reading *Beowulf's
Children*.  Good books!


James
wondering how to get grendels into a non-colonial Traveller game....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:01:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: EMP Cannon

Nope...that's why Starship computer systems are hardened, and why the Fib
computers, so long ago, were more resistant to damage (and more expensive).

Now, I'm not saying whether the EMP phenomonon associated with a nuclear blast
is due to atmospheric effects or not..that I don't know. But things like the
EMP bombs described in the web pages referenced earlier in this thread don't.

Jens Maskus wrote:
> 
> Does an EMP requires an atmosphere or not?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
> --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:01:33 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: 10 ship wishlist

1. 400-600td Jump 2 or Jump-3 merchant.
2. 400td Patrol Cruiser.
3. Large-ish (800td or more) Tukera-style passenger liner.
4. Asteroid ship, large-ish (could be a refinery, or just about anything,
I'd just like to see 
   asteroid's deck plans).
5. A larger freighter (as someone already mentioned, suitable for setting an
alien loose on).
6. The 400td Corsair from the MT book and elsewhere (as opposed to the Vargr
corsair), 'cause I always
   wanted to see the plans with the clamshell rear doors.
7. Yacht.
8. Empress Marava class done well (I've been working on same for MT design
system, and would love to
   see someone else's take).
9. Various small craft (launch, shuttle, modular cutter etc) all crammed
into one page, since they're
   dinky.
10.The Happy Fun Ball (800td Mercenary Cruiser) done well.


Not too original, I know, but off the top of my head that's what I'd like to
see.  Anything too big would likely either not fit the book or end up sloppy
- - I know I do my best deck plan work when I don't have to deal with huge
slabs of space. . . .


Thanks,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:58:40 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Star Mercs Question

I'm almost done "GT Shipyard". The only thing missing are the "FP" values
for the plasma gun and fusion gun introduced in Star Mercs.  Once I get
these numbers I can ship the software and license agreement off to SJG for
approval. Once SJ approves the software BITS can start selling it.

Could some kind soul please email me these values?

Many thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:21:59 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Patrol Cruiser (was re: Starships)

Jimmy Simpson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
The only version of the deckplans I ever saw was in FASA's Adventure Class
Ships Vol. II.
The plans were for the Lurushaar Kilaalum Type T Patrol Cruiser.  This was
put together by the Keith brothers John Harshman and a few others whose
names fall back in the mists of Traveller antiquity, so as far as I am
concerned it was official.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I've seen that one, and thought it good enough...and I'll admit it was
licensed. But by "official", I'm thinking of the GDW publications like
_Signal GK_ (Sub Liner),  _Traders and Gunboats_ (Scout Ship,
Sub Merchant, Seeker, Far Trader), or _Broadsword_ (Mercenary
Cruiser).

Licensed or not, it's not as well-known or as popular as the GDW
deckplans that were published...I think the 400tn Patrol Cruiser would
help make GT: Starships popular, if well done.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:01:05 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Campaign Summary: Reavers' Deep

Good afternoon, fellow sentients.

Well, given that one of my players (R.D.E.) may well be posting summaries of
our sessions from now on, I thought I'd get people caught up to date and get
my cr.02 in before I get slandered all to H*ll and back.

The Reavers' Deep campaign (for lack of a better name) has been going on for
some time now, ~8 sessions (on a once per two weeks basis that is good for
peoples' schedules but often leaves me jonesing on the off-weeks, like this
one).  I will attempt to (relatively) briefly summarize all that has come
to-date, before I forget it all.  If any of my players note any omissions or
mistakes, feel free to correct.

Comments welcome.

(In the future I may well just post this nonsense on a web page with the
deckplans and other sundries, but for the moment I am too lazy to do even
rudimentary HTML coding.)

I am using the Megatraveller rules system, the setting is the Reavers' Deep
sector (slightly modified), and the starting date was 200-1080.


Cast of Players/Characters:

Gstag Khiianu Averglaard, former Imperial Marine combat medic played by
Famille Spofulam's own (no one else wants him) Roderick Darroch Elliott, who
had better learn that dictaphones are *not* for recording and playing back
belches at a variety of speeds before a game session.  (For those who might
get garbled ascii, that's two u's, two umlauts in his first name.)

Mustapha Shakui Berenghi Jones, former, well, Pirate (who had a very brief
stay in the scouts before being kicked out for being too lax and unruly for
even them), ship's Pilot and (recently) Captain. Played by the TML's own
Glenn Grant.

Umgigish 'Gigi' Ensishuu, former Scout, notably 'rugged' (I include this at
her insisistence) and somewhat bouncy (I include this to annoy her, on the
off chance she reads it), played by Melissa Frankel, who none of you have
been unduly exposed to to my knowledge.

Recent Addition:
Hfostyakl'aha (Hfost), Aslan outcast played by occasional TML lurker Jason
Jones. Has yet to master Anglic, despite his best efforts to-date, but this
is likely a good thing, since if he fully understood what was going on
around him. . . .

Recent Subtraction:
Baron General Shugash Hault-Shigushii, retired backwater Army general from
Dareesh (Reavers' Deep 3012 with a slightly modified UWP in order to make it
properly banana republic-esque and tropically scenic) whose family interests
got the whole show rolling.

And a cast of NPCs who will be introduced as needed. . . .


Actually, my fingers are tired, so just save this character summary and I'll
post more later, so it stays nice and small-ish.  Players who read this list
are welcome to post character writeups, especially Jason, whose Aslan is
pretty nifty.  Darroch and Glenn are, as expected, just bizarre.


Tune in next Digest,
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:29:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing philosophy

>Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I've wondered if players shouldn't put an admission fee into the pot, along
>with the GM's reward, all as a deterrent, so that players will FEEL the
>pain.  All players who survive to the end of the adventure would get a cut
>of the pot.  Maybe then players wouldn't go sauntering into a hail of
>fireflies as if it was Disney World.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>GM's reward? Admission fee?
>
>No offense, Clif, but...
>
>This has got to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard for running a
>game group.
>
>If your game isn't interesting enough that players want to survive 'till
the
>end already, you've got more problems with it than a pot of money
>will fix - and enough problems that it'll be overpriced at free, much less
>with an admission fee.

You don't seem to get my point.  Players tend to treat their characters as
grossly expendable because they don't feel the pain when their character
gets hurt.  This is the idea that the sub-mastermind in "Never Say Never
Again" was fighting when he invented that 2-Player World Domination game
that would give you an electronic shock proportional to the loss you
suffered.

The only OTHER way I can think of to keep some players from treating their
characters as expendable is to rule that they cannot play the rest of the
campaign, if they die.  Few GMs are willing to enforce this, preferring
rather to allow the player to roll up another character...  This, in effect,
gives a player 1000 lives.  Some OTHER way to make the player "feel the
pain" must be devised.

The pot is not meant to be a bribe to make players play.

>
>I'm imagining the Pilot character getting ready to launch the escape
>ship, right before the space station explodes. "Wait for us, Ricky!! We'll
>be aboard in two minutes, plenty of time!!". Ricky thinks a minute, the
>player looks at the pot of money, and says, "Launch!"
>

Hmm, well, if there was a "pot" of money in the scenario, then it might be a
darn good way to bring in the element of betrayal.  :)  Ricky sounds like a
shrewd player-killer.

One of the best campaigns I was even in involved a bunch of us characters
chasing the Dupont Emeralds across the galaxy in 2300AD.  The bunch of
emeralds got halfed and it prompted an on-going mini-battle between two
player characters trying to kill each other through several locales.  It was
a great source of comic relief.

>Best way to get a bunch of die-rolling back-stabbing minimaxed
>munchkins I've ever seen, though...was that what you were aiming for?

LOL!  I don't know, but it sure sounds funny!  What does "minimaxed" mean?
LOL
>
>Walt Smith
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:38:46 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: MT: Reavers' Deep campaign outline, part 2

Having manfully managed to type up the player/character summaries in part 1,
I will attempt to provide the campaign background in this installment.

Members of the insignificant little Aslan clan Taaufyarea'ailea (located on
Ktao', a meaningless little world located in subsector H of the Ealasiyaw
(sp?) sector of the Aslan Hierate (E464505-5 Ag, Ni 631 As F1V, M5D) have an
abundance of a natural resource, the (I forget what unpronounceable Aslan
name I gave it so insert one here) plant, whose essence, when properly
extracted and refined, is a major component of anagathic medicines.

While this has been known for some time, the Taaufyarea'ailea have not had
the resources or industrial base to do anything useful with it, and so have
tentatively decided to partner with outsiders.  Given that they are
currently feuding with the more important Aslan clans in the area, it is
decided to work instead with their eventual market (Imperial humanity) by
forming a partnership with the Shigushii family (hereditary rulers of
Dareesh, and a small but thought to be up and coming mercantile concern in
the region).  (The Caledonians were consciously bypassed due to their
connections to certain larger Aslan concerns, and because Sebastien made an
Imperial Noble sort.)

Thus was formed the fledgeling Shigushii-Taaufyarea, LIC (say that three
times quickly, I dare you!). The first voyage to Ktao' to finalize the
agreement, deliver a gift of a hold's worth of Dareeshi brandy (much prized
by the Aslan) and pick up the first holdful of
(unpronounceableIknewIshouldhavewrittenthatnamedown!) for processing on
Dareesh was entrusted to Baron Shugash Hault-Shigushii, a recently-retired
little despot of a noble with fierce facial whiskers, old-fashioned ideas
about nobility and propriety and some sense of the Aslan mindset. (The fact
that he was technologically indifferent and had no useful starship skills
were seen as being a plus under the circumstances.)

Ol' Shugash procured a starship, the MV Sobrendl, a somewhat rundown Type AP
Frontier Trader (TL-13, 200td Jump-3, 1G, 70-odd tons cargo and cramped
quarters for all concerned) and hired a crew consisting of the first three
player characters (Guustag, Mustapha and Gigi), as well as a pair of gunners
(to be detailed next post) and a solidly experienced merchant First Officer
NPC to be his captain.

Then it was off to the planet Lhshami (Reavers' Deep 2111) to pick up their
Taaufyarea partner, an Aslan by the name of Khye'ailea who would serve as
cultural attach and business partner.

Play began with the Sobrendl jumping into the Lhshami system on 200-1080,
where I will pick things up next post....

Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:45:15 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Duhhh!  Obviously, I wasn't advocating killing off all the players...  I
>specifically said (probably in another post) "kill or disable".  Players
>need to see one of their group put in the ground every now and then.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why? To put them in their place? To prove to them that the GM is in
>charge? You can kill a PC whenever you want to.

I explained why in my post if you hadn't gone and snipped it.  It was to
make dangerous situations SEEM dangerous.

> Are you rolling dice,
>or creating a story?

I thought you were doing both...
>
>A warning: campaigns are like guard monsters, they work best when
>hungry. Kill one PC, it's an event. Kill a dozen, the deaths become
>meaningless. I'm not saying the campaign world has to be safe as an
>amusement park ride, but you get very different games when you're not
>running a slaughterhouse for PC's.

No Duh!  That was exactly what I was saying!  Read my words, again.  "one",
I said.
>
>Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Personally, I find "fun" in a realistic universe, where actions and
>decisions have consequences and where somebody dies when they go they
>waltzing into a heated firefight.  Anything else is Monty Haul, in my
>opinion, and will quickly bore me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>I've been running Champions and Justice Inc. off and on for more than
>a decade. In all that time, I've killed TWO player characters. There are
>more than two dozen people who would make a pizza run stark naked
>to get a seat in my games - because they found the games interesting.

Yeah, yeah, pat yourself on the back. Means nothing to me to hear you toot
your own horn.  Tell me, isn't Champions a superhero game?  Superheroes
aren't supposed to die in regular order.  That's why they are called
SUPERheroes.  Elementary, my dear Watson.
>
>Even the Call of Cthulu games I've played in (only game with higher
>casualty rate: Paranoia) managed to make deaths an event, if nothing
>else than because our GM managed to give some reality to NPC's
>before she offed them...you could have a known character die and not
>have it be a player. Of course, we lost player characters by the boatload
>as well...but she had more methods than PC death to scare us with.
>After all, once you've killed your victim, you can't scare them anymore...

And from what I understand about Call of Cthulhu, if you can't tell a good
scary monster story, you've got no business GM'ing that game..
>
>Decisions should have consequences. The average man survives the
>average military action, even if he's on the losing side. The average
>combat casualty is injured, not killed. The average result of a barfight
>is stitches, not the grave.

What is the average result of a firefight in an enclosed space?  Why don't
you write the FBI and ask them?  Besides, I thought I was advocating injury,
also, when I said "disabled", but that's what happens when someone is bent
on arguing against someone they have decided they don't like, rather than
really reading what they said...

> If you have to put characters in the ground
>to make a point, you've got work to do.

If you have to let your characters get away with murder just to keep them
playing in your world, then YOU have work to do.
>
>Walt Smith
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:47:29 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Grendels

        Could someone please describe the "Grendel" culture/ lifeform?
Haven't read that book.

At 01:48 PM 13/02/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Grendels could be introduced to an already-populated world by accident
>(like the bugs in Chamax Plague), or they could inhabit one continent of a
>world in teh abck country; the locals have the other continent explored and
>settled, and are just starting on the new continent.
>
>Or, the Grendels could be bio-engineering gone awry.
>
>Steve Charlton
>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:46:41 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Summary: Reavers' Deep 

> Recent Subtraction:
> Baron General Shugash Hault-Shigushii, retired backwater Army general from
> Dareesh (Reavers' Deep 3012 with a slightly modified UWP in order to make it
> properly banana republic-esque and tropically scenic) whose family interests
> got the whole show rolling.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

This would put Dareesh in the middle of Nightrim.  That's a full blown Impie 
area.  Thing is, I have it as:

Khishali      3012 C866759-8    Ri                 914 Im M3 V  M2 D

in my star data.  Still borderline banana republicish...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:57:53 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [WWW] Freelance Traveller Updated - 13 Feb 1999

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource, announces that its latest update has been posted to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller.

In this update, we have added several mini-reviews to our
Critic's Corner, a new NPC in "Up Close and Personal", a new
document on an expanded Government profile in the "Expanding the
UWP" series, under "Doing It My Way" and the RICE Archives, and a
FAQ update to reflect the latest available information concerning
product releases.

101 Starships, a BITS publication for GURPS Traveller, is
available for download in the Shipyard.

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-1999.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
freetrav@hotmail.com
freetrav@my-dejanews.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:57:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 2:34 PM
Subject: re: A World Without Death


>Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Combat and war are said to be harsh.  They should be dangerous.
>
>That's so obvious that I don't see why I am even having to say it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>OK Clif, come on by to my place, we'll play Traveller. The first time your
>scout ship comes out of jumpspace, I'll have a corsair vaporize it.

Corsairs always shoot first without asking questions and never try to take
prisoners, do they?

>That's fair, there's no way your scout ship could stand up to a 400tn
>corsair. And it's not my problem, there are corsairs in that system in
>my game universe, my job is to make sure the corsairs are happy...
>I'm the GM, I'm supposed to root for the opposition, remember?
>
>You'd quit that game as soon as you realized I was running it to shoot
>at player characters instead of to run a game.

Or I'd learn not to go near THAT part of space without a more formidable
ship...

Besides, you're doing like everyone else and not reading what I am saying.
I'm advocating realistic DANGER in dangerous scenarios, not Monty Haul
adventures.
>
>Cliff again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>James Bond 007, as invincible as he is, often faces setbacks and sees his
>compatriots get wasted.  (In the books).  How many Bond movies are there
and
>how many Star Wars movies are there?  Didn't Obi-Wan bite the big
>lightsabre?  Didn't some Eewoks eat laser in Return of the Jedi?  Didn't
>Biggs kiss Death Star in Star Wars?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Here's a little game my friends and I often play while watching a movie.
>It's called, "Spot the NPC."

Heh heh.  Yeah, I think I've seen movies that were based on gaming sessions,
which is kinda funny, considering how all of you "REALISTIC" GM's are always
putting down Hollywood's movies.  Little do you know that most fiction is
based on a true story, whether it says "based on a true story" or not.
>
>It's usually pretty easy to do. Watch the movie, and try to figure out
>(if the movie were a game session) which characters are PC's and which
>ones are not.
>
>All the Ewoks. All the X-Wing pilots, except Luke Skywalker. Everyone in
>every James Bond flick except Bond and (sometimes) his love interest.
>All the Marines in _Aliens_, except Hicks. All NPC's. Hmmm, see how
>many of these people died in the movies?
>
>Characters who get murdered by the bad guys without contributing much
>to the plot besides their murder (vengeance reason for PC's!) are
>probably NPC's. Characters who move the plot along by telling other
>characters what to do (rather than doing it themselves) are probably
>NPC's.
>
>The guy in charge is often an NPC, unless he goes through significant
>character development. A guy who dies heroically at a climactic moment
>is usually a PC, unless he's a sidekick giving his life to save the heroes
>(and even then he could be a PC).
>
>I've even seen movies where the main character was an NPC...for example,
>the second and third Star Wars movies. I believe that Darth Vader was
>the main character in those movies, his actions and eventual redemption
>were the main line and everything else was a reaction to it.
>
>Spot the NPC...fun for the whole family!!
>
>Walt Smith
>
Fair enough, but your conclusions are always after the fact.  Its not my
fault that most movies are predictable.

How about the PC in "Mission: Impossible".  How many people knew that one of
the movie's bigger names, Emilio Estevez, was going to be lobotomized in the
elevator shaft?  That took me greatly by surprise.

Guess what?  Ms. Kensington, a PC in the first movie, is going to be offed
on page 7 of the sequel to "Austin Powers".  I guess you'll tell me that she
was an NPC, now, just 'cause Austin Powers shagged her?

Sorry, but I don't believe in running Trav campaigns that seem like they're
really 'Toon campaigns, where you can keep from falling from heights simply
because you never studied law.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:03:15 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

> Being able to
>>crush a personality out of existence would be the sign of a full "god",
>>also.  No need to demote him/her to "demi-god", unless you can show
>some
>>limitation of power that restrains the GM in his universe (I can't
>think of
>>one).
>
>If the player takes his character sheet and goes home.
>:)
>
We've already been over that line of thought, exhaustively.  (Peanut
Gallery:  "You can say that again!")  The GM didn't have a copy of the
sheet?  Did the player take all memory of the character from the GM's mind
when he left?  The player is powerless to effect a change in the GM's
universe unless he so wills it.


And the point has been made and agreed upon that a good GM will allow
players to effect realistic levels of change in his universe.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:04:14 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: PBEM Logs Mailing List

        Earlier this month (or was it January?) there was some discussion
about the creation of a PBEM Story List, for posting the game logs of PBEM's
to.  The idea was to keep the TML clear of that type of traffic.  I am
willing to host such a list.  Anyone interested in being on it, please
e-mail "listmaster@atlantic-online.ns.ca" with a note asking to be
subscribed to "PBEM-Logs".  
        Purpose of the list is a) entertainment, b) idea-mining, c) GM
critiques and comments on plot elements, etc.  The list will not be
restricted to Traveller only;  however, I suspect that is all the initial
traffic will be.  Also, "tidied up" captures from PB-IRC games are also welcome.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:07:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

>The PC's in most games are expected to be the James Bonds and Luke
>Skywalkers of the game. As a GM, I have killed off player characters
>before, but I make every possible allowance up to and including
>completely disregarding the rolls and rules to keep the PC's alive.

Then it sounds like you're a pretty stern GM, 'cause I find that I have to
sometimes ignore even rolls and rules to keep a PC alive.
>
>It's the nature of the game and is really dependent on the players own
>personalities. Some people get really attached to their characters, even
>though the players may be inexperienced and get their PC's into
>untenable situations. They're having fun, which is the whole point.
>Other people don't have a problem with their characters dying, so it's
>less of a problem there.
>
>What I have found happening with GM's who play the realistic 'War and
>combat kills...life sucks...deal with it' kind of game end up selecting
>for players who deal with creating new characters all the time or find
>ways of playing without doing combat.

Right!  And that latter option is realistic.  Given the option of going to a
meat grinder of a war, a lot of thinking PC's are going to say "Screw that!"
and hoof it to Canada rather than dive in like a Klingon whose courage has
been challenged.
>
>They lose the players who want a more cinematic kind of experience.

Well, when you're running a solo campaign, it is hard to provide anything
else.
>
>I've never had a surplus of players, so I tended to make it harder for
>the characters to die.

Same here.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:20:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

>It
should be that way," or "Screw you!  My world, my rules!" or even
"Yes, Dear.  You kill him.  Uh, does this mean I don't have to sleep
on the couch tonight?"  :)

LOL!  Unfortunately, I've never had the pleasure of being outranked by the
multi-breasted mother goddess.  :)  Of course, if the object of her
aggression was an NPC in all respects like yourself, maybe you WILL be
sleeping on the couch, anyway.  : )


>A good GM, allows PCs to make some changes (however small,
however realistic) in the game world, over time and with appropriate
effort.  I believe that, whatever semantics may be applied to my
statement, that we agree on this.

Yes.

>The better ones generally, *generally*, don't call
themselves "gods," while the less mature or developed GMs tend,
*tend*,  to do so.  My experience, YMMV.

Make no mistakes.  I've never had to deify myself or any of my GM's, because
it was always ASSUMED that the GM was the "god" of his universe.  We never
had a problem with the idea because we were all of the old school that had
been raised up on the idea that the GM ... etc.

>(BTW, this has nothing to do with GMs who are portraying the roles of
Gods in their FRPGs.  That's a role usually portrayed by the GM, and
as such, is outside the scope of this discussion.  Shouldn't be used
to support either approach to this discussion.)

I disagree, totally.

>I, too, believe in Role-Playing over ROLL-Playing.  However, I've
gamed in situations where the rules became a point of contention
between players and/or players and the GM, and that ruined my fun.
Remembering that the character is a ultimately a piece of paper is
reminding myself that I'm here to play a game and have fun, not
argue and watch my blood pressure skyrocket.

I agree.  It is sadly humourous to watch a couple of nerdy gamers get into a
one-upmanship thing over rules specifics.  That's one reason I like to
rework systems, so that players will never get into an argument about the
workings of the universe which should mostly be a mystery, anyway.  It sucks
to have players who can recognize every monster they meet because they own
every manual, module, etc.  The most fun I ever had was being a 1st level
Cavalier in a party of guys who had NEVER played an RPG before...  BUGBEARS
scared the crap out of them!  AS WELL THEY SHOULD!


Monsters should be scary.  Guys with guns should be, too.

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #140
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 141



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Was Gauss Weapns, now the Gun that Shoots Through Walls
Re: A World without Death
Re: Starships
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Whopping Great Handgun
Re: delusions of grandeur (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #140
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: GMing Philosophy...
Re: A World without Death
re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC
Re: A World Without Death
Re: A World without Death
Re: delusions of grandeur (long)
Re: GMing philosophy
Re: Grendels
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:25:35 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Was Gauss Weapns, now the Gun that Shoots Through Walls

>From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Gauss weapons
>
>>>Sniping becomes a whole different game when all it takes is *one* shot
>>>for them to pinpoint you.
>>One shot is all I need..
>>But seriously, a remore gun system might be the answer.  I set up the
>>weapon, scuttle off about 50m with the command unit (connected by a
>>fibre-optic cable) and take my shot from that position.
>Hell I want the one used in ST:DS9. Rifle with a mini transporter on the
>flame guard to 'beam' the round right next to the target and a x-ray type
>sight to 'look' through decks, deckheads, and bulkheads so you can snipe
>from the safety of you locked room. Any of you gearheads  out there know if
>some thing like it is possible (I don't own FF&S or FF&S2).
>Wayne Ewart

OK. This is a translation of Ditzie's notes on the subject.

It wont be man-portable, even in battledress.

Base it around a densitometer and a small meson gun. The densitometer has
been done a large number of intensive sweeps around the area. It would help
if furniture etc in the area is very light - think foam. The computer
linked to the units knows *exactly* where everything in the ship or complex
is, and how much it masses.

The meson gun should only need to be about 20cm long, as it needs a range
of under a kilometer. Make it as wide as you want - you probably want over
a megajoule of output.

Now, people arent that massy, but battledress is. The odds are that an
unarmoured person wont be picked up by the densitometer, but a clam would be.

Hmmm, can I smell an Imperial Marine adventure ... there is a mad scientist
in the complex, and he has a meson gun and has smoked fourteen troopers so
far.

There are combat robots as well ... you need to go in, find him and kill
him. And the closest small Meson Screen is five parsecs away.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:27:19 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

But having to bribe the coach to get in the game is right
>out!


How is an admission fee that goes into a pot that surviving characters get a
bribe?

The GM doesn't get the money!

I swear you people don't read what I say.  If you insist on skimming please
put me on ignore or refrain from responding.  I would prefer that.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:29:54 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Revised voting:

Large passenger liner (5)

Patrol Ship/Frigate/Corvette (4)
Destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (4)
SDB/Monitor (4)
Space station or small highport w/modular components (4)

Dreadnaught (3)
Large freighter (3)
Yacht (3)

Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava class, perhaps J3) (2)
Old/low-tech merchant ship (2)
Cruiser (around 20 ktons) (2)
Carrier w/ fighters (2)
Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (2)
IISS survey cruiser (2)
Medium exploration ship (1000-2000 dTons) (2)
Non-Imperial warship (2)
Ancients' military ship (2)
Ship tender/Jump ship (from Fighting Ships) (2)

Deckplans already published for GT:
	Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
	Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
	Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
	Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
	Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
	Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp 68-71)
	

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:35:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>A good GM doesn't generally oppose his own players. Or at least he
>shouldn't. A good GM works with them to create an interesting story. He may
>create obstacles to block their path, but he's still playing as well. Any
GM
>can "beat" the players anytime he wants to. That's not what running a game
>is all about.

Duh!
>
>>A GM has to be the advocate of the opposition.  Does a good GM play every
>>NPC soldier like a retard who never takes cover and concealment on the
>>battlefield, but has them walk into the line of fire at every opportunity.
>
Why must I constantly have to explain that I am not advocating the opposite
extreme?  Do you not read the specific language I am using?  Are you not
capable of giving someone a little credit?
>
>If the scenario calls for it. Likewise, a bad GM will play all enemy
>soldiers as crack-troops who take every opportunity to get behind cover and
>supernaturally avoid the line of fire.
>
>>No!  If a player character isn't killed or disabled every now and then,
>>there is no danger, and "danger" is what makes a game exciting (unless you
>>have figured out a way to make RPG "sex" more realistic).
>
>
>Actually, the hint of death can supply all the danger that's needed. I've
>fudged a number of rolls so that the group could manage to get away with
one
>or two PCs pulling their (severely) wounded away. There are other methods
of
>introducing danger into a game as well.

"severely wounded" sounds like my kind of danger, to me.  Don't see how what
you've done is any different.
>
>To be honest, I disagree that danger has to be introduced into a game to
>make it exciting. I ran a Scout sanctioned scavenger hunt and race across a
>subsector. There was _no_ danger of the PCs dying! They were completely
>safe. It was still exciting, although it wasn't dangerous. This also
>captured their attention far better than the combats that had come before.

Good point.  I won't belabour it by rehashing the points I made which you
conveniently seemed to miss.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:32:56 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Whopping Great Handgun

>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: EMP Cannon (and some 12.7mm fun links)
>
>At Trav-TL 12 it is possible to make a handgun with the following stats.
>
>Dam:     6
>Recoil:  2
>Wt:      2.12 kg
>Length:  28 cm
>
>If anyone is interested in stats then I will gladly post it to the list. 

Always :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:41:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: delusions of grandeur (long)

><I'm not saying that you are a TRUE "god" in the REAL WORLD.  C'mon, do
>you really think I've been asserting that?  I'm only saying what has
>been said all along with RPG's.>
><Clif>
>
>You're the one who said they were being worshiped because they were
>offered food IN REAL LIFE!

Yes, and I qualified this exception.  I "guess" you missed it.  I made the
point that the GM was being offered pizza not only to run a session or keep
one going, but also so that PC's would be granted blessings and favor from
on high.

><And adults who are avid gamers are usually referred to as "geeks".
>What's your point?  Are we cracking on ourselves, now?>
>
>No, I was referring to someone who creates his or her own imaginary
>universe, calls him/herself a god, and plays in it alone.

Fine, then that point was irrelevant to our discussion.
>
>The GM plays a variety of roles in the game and I think coach is one of
>those roles.  Yes, the GM does play the opposition as well but they also
>play the allies and contacts of the PCs (they should at least).
>Role-playing games are not supposed to be the GM vs. the players, but I
>suspect Clif plays it that way.

Remind yourself to never be a P.I.  Your suspicions are unfounded.
>
>Yes, the GM has ALMOST complete control over the game.

I'm talking about the universe of his making, not the game.  Obviously, he
can't hold a gun to a player's head to make him play.

> The GM may be nearly
>all-powerful in the game but the players have a collective Moot.  That
>is, they can veto and/or impeach the GM and dissolve the game.  The
>so-called "god" can do nothing to stop this.
>

Wrong.  The abandoned PC's can become "pre-rolled characters" and the GM can
provide the background and resume the game where it left off.
>---------------------------------------------
><Clif also wrote: Isn't author of a sci-fi novel the "god" of that
>universe?>
>No, the author is just a storyteller of an imaginary universe, but you
>could say the author has delusions of being a god in their own imaginary
>universe.  I don't think most authors consider themselves gods.

Please notice the quotations... siggghhhhhhh...
>--------------------------------------------
><Clif continued: How can ANYONE not see the parallel?>
>Easily, everyone has different perspectives on reality.  Obviously yours
>and mine don't match.


Oh, it was reality we were discussing?  I thought it was a universe of the
GM's making...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:44:29 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #140

>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:46:41 -0500
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Campaign Summary: Reavers' Deep 
>
>> Recent Subtraction:
>> Baron General Shugash Hault-Shigushii, retired backwater Army general
from
>> Dareesh (Reavers' Deep 3012 with a slightly modified UWP in order to make
it
>> properly banana republic-esque and tropically scenic) whose family
interests
>> got the whole show rolling.
>
>Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
>
>This would put Dareesh in the middle of Nightrim.  That's a full blown
Impie 
>area.  Thing is, I have it as:
>
>Khishali      3012 C866759-8    Ri                 914 Im M3 V  M2 D
>
>in my star data.  Still borderline banana republicish...
>
>Keven

Indeed, but Dareesh was created by the player *before* I found the subsector
data for RD, and so when I did turn the stuff up (kindly sent me buy the guy
doing up the lost Keith supplements) I found a likely candidate and plugged
it in.

By the way, since I didn't have any kind of map of the sector either, I have
made one (on a macro scale) wil Illustrator.  It isn't finished yet, as I
haven't put in asteroid/desert world symbols or borders/jump routes, but
when I do I'll put it on the site that I will eventually make for this
damned campaign. . .  ;)

In any event, given the players, mayhem is imminent.  ;)

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

My Traveller Geek Code 
tc+ tm++ tn-- t4- tg

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:44:35 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>>A good GM doesn't generally oppose his own players. Or at least he
>>shouldn't. A good GM works with them to create an interesting story. He
may
>>create obstacles to block their path, but he's still playing as well. Any
>GM
>>can "beat" the players anytime he wants to. That's not what running a game
>>is all about.
>
>Duh!


Well, Cliff, if it was so obvious perhaps you should have indicated that
this is what you meant. Upon reading your message it didn't seem like such a
concept was obvious to you. In fact, it seemed like you were saying the
opposite.

>Why must I constantly have to explain that I am not advocating the opposite
>extreme?  Do you not read the specific language I am using?  Are you not
>capable of giving someone a little credit?


Here's a thought:

If you post a message to the list, and you must "constantly...explain"
perhaps, just perhaps, your language wasn't as specific as you think it was.

>"severely wounded" sounds like my kind of danger, to me.  Don't see how
what
>you've done is any different.


Mark Twain once pointed out that the difference between the right word and
the almost right word was like the difference between lightning and a
lightning bug.

It's the same with death. You were saying PCs have to die frequently in
order for danger to be maintained. The difference between "severely wounded"
and "dead" is like the difference between the right word and almost right
word.

>Good point.  I won't belabour it by rehashing the points I made which you
>conveniently seemed to miss.


Whatever you say Clif.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:53:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy...

Maybe your carrot isn't big enough or your funnel is the flimsy plastic
kind.

- --Clif

>I almost never used any pre-planned scenario, the boys
>just never go for it. Hell, now most of the time I'll start with a random
>encounter and see where the PCs take me. I've got to think on the run, but
>its fun and the PCs are sure to read more into something then I've EVER
>though. Then again I have a majorly paranoid bunch to run.
>
>Wayne Ewart
>
>wewart@home.com
>ICQ # 22113294
>
>This is the theater of life. Admission is free, but taxation is mortal. You
>come when you can and leave when you must. The show is continues.
Goodnight.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:26:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

Clif wrote:
> 
> But having to bribe the coach to get in the game is right
> >out!
> 
> How is an admission fee that goes into a pot that surviving characters get a
> bribe?
> 
> The GM doesn't get the money!
> 
> I swear you people don't read what I say.  If you insist on skimming please
> put me on ignore or refrain from responding.  I would prefer that.
> 
Clif:

The following is from your post "Re: GMing Philosophy...", on Friday, 12
Feb 99, at 12:07 PM:

*********

I've wondered if players shouldn't put an admission fee into the pot,
along
with the GM's reward, all as a deterrent, so that players will FEEL the
pain.  All players who survive to the end of the adventure would get a
cut
of the pot.  Maybe then players wouldn't go sauntering into a hail of
fireflies as if it was Disney World.

*********

The reference to "...along with the GM's reward" implies a reward either
_for_ the GM (presumably in gratitude for running the game) or _from_
the GM (given to the players).  Since the context of this paragraph
revolves around admission fees, and the doling out of same to players
whose characters survive, "the GM's reward" logically must be similarly
tangible.  Hence, either the players are bribing the GM to let them play
(using the first meaning described above), or the GM is paying players
to participate (using the second meaning).

Have I failed to read what you wrote, or have you failed to make clear
your meaning?

ObTrav:  <tongue-in-cheek> How many of the "101 Religions" mention
tithing, and have any referees considered simulating this with _real_
cash payments to the local stand-in for the deities in question (i.e.,
the referee)? </tongue-in-cheek>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:31:00 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

>I've been running Champions and Justice Inc. off and on for more than
>a decade. In all that time, I've killed TWO player characters. There 
are
>more than two dozen people who would make a pizza run stark naked 
>to get a seat in my games - because they found the games interesting.
>

This sounds about right. Nearly ten years ago I had a player get himself 
killed with such style he is still remembered fondly...
:)


Roger


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:05:30 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller RPG Headed to PC

My character is
> still drifting in a cyber sleep on a back-up disk somewhere. What ever
> happened to a sequel?
> J.LaRosee  >>
>
>now here is an interesting adventure nugget...:-)


<grin>
Been there, the players loved it!
(And as a referee, I had total control over what items were readily 
available to them on that old abandoned merchant liner.)

Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:55:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

At 06:57 PM 2/13/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Besides, you're doing like everyone else and not reading what I am saying.
>I'm advocating realistic DANGER in dangerous scenarios, not Monty Haul
>adventures.

OK, we'll get realistic.

In _The Traveller Adventure_, the characters are likely going to need to
break in to a museum to recover the howood artifact that is the centerpiece
of the campaign.  Odds are that even if the characters manage to pull off
the caper without being caught (museums are designed to keep the items
inside), I'm willing to bet that they'll leave enough evidence behind that
a competent TL-12 cop will be able to build a case.  "But we'll be long
gone!" you say.  Hardly.  The local authorities might just insist on a
detailed check of all departing ships.. especially ones that ask for a
sudden departure date.  And being a Subbie Merchant that is suddenly taking
free time just after a major robbery.. hmm.. sounds like reasonable cause
for a search warrant, which will turn up the Vargr who started the whole
thing.

Reasonable danger puts the ship's crew in a penal colony for three-to-five.
 Grab Adventure 8.

Realistic is that most people never own or draw a gun.  70% of FBI agents
never fire their weapons in anger.  Even in states where it's legal to
carry concealed weapons, most people don't want them on private property.

Realistic depends on the style of the campaign.  Are they mercenaries?
Fine, people die in combat, and for stupid reasons.  Are they merchants?
Merchies should avoid combat, as it tends to lower the profit margin.
Spies?  Despite Hollywood's best intentions, espionage is not combat
intensive.  

Have you tried other form of threat?  Losing a ship, or other financial
ruin is always a good push in a Traveller campaign.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:59:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

At 07:27 PM 2/13/99 -0500, you wrote:

>The GM doesn't get the money!
>
>I swear you people don't read what I say.  If you insist on skimming please
>put me on ignore or refrain from responding.  I would prefer that.

clif, I'm amazed that you even have to make a finacial incentive.  My
friends and I play for love of gaming, and each other's company.  We don't
even keep track of who owes what for pizzia.

True Story:  Back in '95, when I was in the hospital after my cancer
surgery, a group from the local game store came in with Paranoia.  I was on
serious morphine, in a lot of pain, and I was laughing so hard my nurse had
to keep reminding me about my staples.  It wasn't about winning, it was
about playing a game.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:06:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: delusions of grandeur (long)

At 07:41 PM 2/13/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Yes, and I qualified this exception.  I "guess" you missed it.  I made the
>point that the GM was being offered pizza not only to run a session or keep
>one going, but also so that PC's would be granted blessings and favor from
>on high.

Gee.  Y'know, I really shopuld be nicer to Kirsten's character them seeing
as we've been married for 7 1/2 years, but no, I just keep treating Shandra
like all the others.. fairly.

I would really question a GM who openly accepts bribes.  What if you have a
player who can't afford to feed you?

In my games, I ask that people help provide munchies if I'm providing the
space.  Sometimes we have a full meal, and I ask folks to help pay for the
cost of feeding them (never more than a buck or two).  I would *never* give
out favorable circumstances in the game for real-world favors.  That is the
height of Referee munchinkism.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry            dberry@hooked.net 
   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html   

"I'm just like anybody else, I want to be a non-conformist too." 
                                     -Lenny Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:10:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GMing philosophy

At 06:29 PM 2/13/99 -0500, you wrote:

>You don't seem to get my point.  Players tend to treat their characters as
>grossly expendable because they don't feel the pain when their character
>gets hurt. 

Maybe your policty of character-bashing keeps them from becoming attached.
"Why bother when the GM is just going to kill one of us anyway.."

<snip>

>>I'm imagining the Pilot character getting ready to launch the escape
>>ship, right before the space station explodes. "Wait for us, Ricky!! We'll
>>be aboard in two minutes, plenty of time!!". Ricky thinks a minute, the
>>player looks at the pot of money, and says, "Launch!"

>Hmm, well, if there was a "pot" of money in the scenario, then it might be a
>darn good way to bring in the element of betrayal.  :)  Ricky sounds like a
>shrewd player-killer.

You couldn't pay me to be in your group if that the way you run things.
Ever read _Knights of the Dinner Table_?


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:12:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Grendels

At 07:47 PM 2/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>        Could someone please describe the "Grendel" culture/ lifeform?
>Haven't read that book.

Read the book.  Really.  Explaining them would ruin the fun.

One hint:  When Steven Barnes (one of the co-authors) saw _Jurrasic Park_,
he descibed the Velocioraptors as "kind of like Grendels, but slower.."
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:55:51 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

>Chris Seamans wrote:
>> 
>> You see, Hudson was poorly played. In real life he was acted much the same
>> way. During that gaming session he would screech things like, "WHAT, WE'RE
>> OUT OF CHIPS? WHAT'RE WE GONNA DO NOW, HUH?" and "OH MAN, MY D6 CHIPPED WHEN
>> IT FELL ON THE FLOOR, THAT'S IT MAN, GAME OVER MAN!"
>> 
>> The GM had to kill him off so he'd go home.
>
>ROFLMAO!!! I've _been_ there!

LOL!
Me too!

I had the distinct misfortune of having a serious idiot lead a brand new 
player into a near lethal situation and expose him to some serious 
"Don't go that far" dangers. I ended up incapaciting both of them, and 
pulling the newbe aside during an immediate break and arranged to allow 
him to return to the game with another available character.

he learned to not be quite so trusting the next time.
:)

Roger

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:21:53 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

		I think the attitudes about whether the GM is opposing the players or  not
depends upon when in the game you are playing.  When encounters are set up and
planned or created in response to player action, the GM should make sure there
is an "out" for the players and that the encounters are balanced with a chance
of success.  This is the "RP" or story-telling element of the session.  Once a
dangerous or combat event actually begins the GM should play the "bad guys" to
win, should be scrupulous in following the rules and should be honest in
reporting the die rolls--this is the "G" or game part of the session.
	RPG's were developed out of miniatures wargaming.  People wanted reasons and
consequences to go along with the battles they fought on the tabletop.   The
combination of "play-acting" with wargaming was a powerful one, and it is best
if you remember that the combination is the heart of the hobby.  
	Once the bullets start flying, I like to get out the miniatures or counters
and treat the game like a small wargame until the battle or crisis is
resolved.  So yes I curse when my Bushwhackers roll a critical failure when
the PC's are in line of sight.  But, once the fighting is over, I don't want
to "get revenge" on the players for beating my precious cutthroats, that
"game" is over and the role-playing resumes and I'm on the PC's side again.
	In some Traveller campaigns it even works to have one player run the enemy
forces during battles.  If you have a combination Space/Ground mercenary unit,
for instance the player running the space captain can easily be Ground
Opposing force guy, for playing out the fire fights, and the Ground Commander
can be Space Oppossing force guy for running the space battles.     And yes
you expect the guy running the opposing forces to try to win the encounter!
Hopefully, you've balanced things right or the PC's as a group have planned
adequately enough to ensure the PC's will win, but if they don't that's
life--as long as they know it's fair.

		Dave Nelson
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:34:46 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 1

Joining our heroes (sans Aslan) are:

Kha Shuskugu, a young and somewhat bruised-around-the-edges gunner, formerly
a Pirate on the Rose Nocturne (a corsair she served on with Mustapha). 
Think Juliette Lewis in space; kinda low-rent, but interesting nonetheless.

Matthias Edikin, an imposing and thoroughly competent gunner/engineer's
mate, former Imperial Navy NCO.

Diisham Kalim, former Merchant First Officer, hired by the Baron to serve as
captain and actually run things while the latter makes the 'strategic'
examples.


200-1080 - the Sobrendl jumps into the Lhshami system on the way to a
rendezvous with their contact Khye'ailea the following day.  On their way
insystem, are warned by an outbound trader that, with the system's lone SDB
(no GG, by the way) currently undergoing repairs that there have been
reported sightings of a nasty-seeming corsair, the Random Heading.

Arriving at the Lhshami downport (a teeming city of 20 million inhabitants,
fully one-third of the planet's inhabitants) the Baron authorises an entire
floor of the prestigious Lhshami StarTowers be reserved for group use.  Much
use of hot tubs and minibars ensued, with the disappointed males discovering
that there were more than one hot tub, and that there were 'privacy screens'
(opaque holograms) seperating them as needed (narrowly maintaining Mr.
Miller's morals clause on this occasion).

Following this, the Baron shelled out for eveningwear for Kha and Gigi, who
went nuts, and the group spent the evening dining and gambling on a big
floating complex drifting over the lovely fungal forests of Lhshami.  The
Baron lost a gentlemanly large sum at a game of skill, Mustapha made out
moderately well (with really lucky rolls) on one game of chance, while Gigi
lost steadily at a low-stakes game of chance apparently involving the
movements of some cute little rodent that she wanted to shoot by the end of
the night. Gstag spent the evening trying not to make eye contact with any
attractive women, and so pick them up (ask Darroch, it's long and
complicated)....

The group then returned to the suite, being scheduled to meet Khye'ailea the
following morning for breakfast.  Most of the group decided to get a few
hours' sleep, but Kha, Gigi and Gstag decided to see who could out-drink
who (Scout vs. Marine honour being at stake here).  Kha outdrank them both
but was too sleepy in the morning to be presentable.  The other two woke up
in time to be fashionably late, and arrived wired on a stimulant Gstag
prescribed to wake them up, so they jittered through the encounter (and of
course violated the morals clause all to hell in the proess).

The Baron's cultural attach/business partner turned out to be a young
(anagathics!), reserved, stunning Aslan woman who delicately ate a breakfast
of the equivalent of prosciutto (spice-cured, raw, thinly-sliced meat) while
utterly captivating the Baron and Gstag.  Culturally Aslan, physically a
stauesque human female.  It seems the Aslan figured that though she was a
relatively minor executive in the Taaufyrea'ailea fold, her outward humanity
might prove helpful in this.  They were right, though being utterly Aslan on
the inside she missed a lot of the mooning going on around her...(her
ignorance thankfully preventing further morals violations).

Before leaving, Mustapha ran into an old 'acquaintance' now working aboard
the Random Heading, who inquired briefly as to his situation and promised to
pay a gambling debt he owed the redoubtable Mr. Jones.

They prepared to take off for their next leg of the journey to Ktao', with
the Baron deciding to save a few cents and have the ship ocean refuel. 
Given that the Engineer was racked, the Pilot hung-over and everyone else
queasy, they did OK and departed.

More next posting. . . .

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #141
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 13 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 142



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: GMing Philosophy
re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: A World Without Death
Re: GMing Philosophy
Infuriated Clif
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Nightrim Site.
Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
Paranoia: A World without^h^h^h Much Death
MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 1 (part 2)
Re: Gauss weapons
re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:47:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: GMing Philosophy

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You don't seem to get my point.  Players tend to treat their characters as
grossly expendable because they don't feel the pain when their character
gets hurt.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Which indicates to me the players aren't involved with their characters -
a usual side-effect of playing with a GM who thinks killing PC's is his
job. Is the GM driven to PC-slaughter to get their attention because they
don't care, or do they not care because the GM is into PC-slaughter?
Wherever it started, this kind of mindset on the GM's part tends to
reinforce it.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the idea that the sub-mastermind in "Never Say Never
Again" was fighting when he invented that 2-Player World Domination game
that would give you an electronic shock proportional to the loss you
suffered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In case you hadn't noticed, this sub-mastermind was a psychopath and
a sadist - he enjoyed inflicting pain on others, and was convinced that
he was stronger and better than anyone else. He wasn't trying to get
people more involved in his game, he was using his game as a way to lord 
over and torture others. Not a role-model I'd choose as a GM.

Clif:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The only OTHER way I can think of to keep some players from treating their
characters as expendable is to rule that they cannot play the rest of the
campaign, if they die.  Few GMs are willing to enforce this, preferring
rather to allow the player to roll up another character...  This, in effect,
gives a player 1000 lives.  Some OTHER way to make the player "feel the
pain" must be devised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
GM: You see 500 blood-crazed barbarians. The strange magnetic field
in this area is still making your laser rifles misfire, and the undetectable
atmospheric taint spoiled the gunpowder in all your bullets. What do you
do? Too late, they jump on you and (die roll, die roll, die roll, die roll)
rip you to shreds. You're dead, which means you're out of my campaign.
Good night.
Players: You do realize that we're the last people playing in your campaign,
don't you? You sent everyone else away when your Voorg Monster
ambushed them last night.
GM: No problem. The campaign is more important than the players
anyway. Excuse me, I have to make some rolls for my barbarians, they're
fighting over your stuff. (Die roll, die roll, die roll....)

You don't have to hand a guy a new character every thirty seconds, you
know. There is a happy medium...for example:

The player has to sit out until a logical place for another character to enter
occurs, or take over one of the lesser NPC's. Instead of playing the
Hotshot Pilot he designed, he has to take over the Tempermental Cargo 
Hand, or the Pacifistic Ship's Doctor...or have to sit out the entire evening 
until the party is back at base and heads to the Guild House to try and 
replace their dear, departed Hotshot Pilot.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmm, well, if there was a "pot" of money in the scenario, then it might be a
darn good way to bring in the element of betrayal.  :)  Ricky sounds like a
shrewd player-killer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You make it sound like a character class. Fighter, Thief, Magic-User,
Player-Killer....<g>

While I don't actively discourage this kind of thing when it happens for
in-game, in-character reasons, I'd think I'd gone insane if I added a
non-game encouragement for it. If Ricky is going to betray the party
because Ricky's player will get the last slice of pizza if he does...
never mind. It makes my brain hurt to think about it.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the best campaigns I was even in involved a bunch of us characters
chasing the Dupont Emeralds across the galaxy in 2300AD.  The bunch of
emeralds got halfed and it prompted an on-going mini-battle between two
player characters trying to kill each other through several locales.  It was
a great source of comic relief.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Wow - some players got interested in something that was happening
inside the game? How did that happen? ;)

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Best way to get a bunch of die-rolling back-stabbing minimaxed
>munchkins I've ever seen, though...was that what you were aiming for?

LOL!  I don't know, but it sure sounds funny!  What does "minimaxed" mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Minimaxed" means that the character is built to take the highest possible
advantage of the game system. He'll carry the weapon that does the most
damage, have the skills that make him the most dangerous...if your game
has things like disadvantages-for-points in it, he'll pick ones that give him
the most points for the least pain rather than ones that define who he is
or why he does what he does. He won't be built to be a character, he'll
be built to be as efficient as possible. 
MINI-mum limitations + MAXimum capabilities = MINIMAX.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:11:25 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
<lots of protestations that he isn't advocating frequent killing of PC's 
snipped>
>>>>>>>>>>
Clif, make up your mind. PC's survive something that should have killed
them, you dismiss the entire  campaign as "Monty Haul" and "Boooring".
Every post you've made advocates putting the players in their place so
they won't treat their PC's as expendable...including "putting them in 
the ground every once in a while".

I'm not putting words in your mouth, Clif...just telling you where I disagree
with your philosophy of running a campaign. If your method works for you,
enjoy it - but you sound awful silly protesting that what you said isn't what
you said. 

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah, yeah, pat yourself on the back. Means nothing to me to hear you toot
your own horn.  Tell me, isn't Champions a superhero game?  Superheroes
aren't supposed to die in regular order.  That's why they are called
SUPERheroes.  Elementary, my dear Watson.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just an example of campaigns that didn't need character death to make
things interesting. Champions is a superhero game, so you are correct
in thinking that death would be unusual. Justice, Inc ranged from
Indiana Jones to Film Noir (dark detective movies), so the fear of death
varied in that case. Irrelevant, because my point is that death is the
last big stick - if you've gotten to the point where it's the only motivator
you have, something is wrong with your campaign.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Besides, I thought I was advocating injury,
also, when I said "disabled", but that's what happens when someone is bent
on arguing against someone they have decided they don't like, rather than
really reading what they said...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Clif, all I know about you is what you write here. I base my opinions and
responses on that. From the above bit, I infer that you take too many
things *waaay* too personally.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> If you have to put characters in the ground
>to make a point, you've got work to do.

If you have to let your characters get away with murder just to keep them
playing in your world, then YOU have work to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Maybe I'll ask a certain Tom J. to tell you how scared he felt when
his hero team was searching for a ghost in a derelict nazi U-boat. (The
steam radiator in the room creaked a few times, he nearly jumped out 
of his skin!) Or have Mike G. relate to you how he felt like the cops were 
waiting for him (not his character - him!) outside the door, that night his 
character carried out the cold-blooded vengeance murder of a supervillain.
Or have Jean T. tell you  how she wept with rage when Chimera killed
Doctor White - because it meant he took the secret of her character's 
origins with him to the grave.

Player involvement, to the point of major emotional response...without
a single drop of PC blood being spilled.

I've done my work, Clif. 

Walt Smith
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:25:38 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A World Without Death

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Heh heh.  Yeah, I think I've seen movies that were based on gaming sessions,
which is kinda funny, considering how all of you "REALISTIC" GM's are always
putting down Hollywood's movies.  Little do you know that most fiction is
based on a true story, whether it says "based on a true story" or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Yup. Independence Day, Lost in Space, Godzilla...all too true for the
newspapers, but Hollywood's quest for truth will not be stopped!

Oh, wait, you were probably talking about movies like Conspiracy Theory
and Enemy of the State, the ones where the government is out to get Clif.

The only beefs I've seen here with Hollywood movies are with stupid
plots or bonehead science.  I find movies to be a vital part of a GM's
training...read books to see how you describe something, see movies
to get a feel for pacing...a 120 minute movie tends to have pacing much
more in tune with an evening's game session than a 250 page novel would.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Guess what?  Ms. Kensington, a PC in the first movie, is going to be offed
on page 7 of the sequel to "Austin Powers".  I guess you'll tell me that she
was an NPC, now, just 'cause Austin Powers shagged her?
>>>>>>>>>>>
What a shame, the player running Ms. Kensington's character must have
had to leave the campaign...the GM explained her absence with the
murder of her character, to use as a plot device.

Or do you murder PC's as plot devices on a regular basis? <g>

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry, but I don't believe in running Trav campaigns that seem like they're
really 'Toon campaigns, where you can keep from falling from heights simply
because you never studied law.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not floating because I don't understand law. I'm floating because I
studied gravitics!!  <WEG>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:28:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing Philosophy

>Which indicates to me the players aren't involved with their characters -
>a usual side-effect of playing with a GM who thinks killing PC's is his
>job. Is the GM driven to PC-slaughter to get their attention because they
>don't care, or do they not care because the GM is into PC-slaughter?
>Wherever it started, this kind of mindset on the GM's part tends to
>reinforce it.

Ahh, that might explain my recent pessimism concerning poor role-playing
players then...
>
>Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>This is the idea that the sub-mastermind in "Never Say Never
>Again" was fighting when he invented that 2-Player World Domination game
>that would give you an electronic shock proportional to the loss you
>suffered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>In case you hadn't noticed, this sub-mastermind was a psychopath and
>a sadist - he enjoyed inflicting pain on others, and was convinced that
>he was stronger and better than anyone else. He wasn't trying to get
>people more involved in his game, he was using his game as a way to lord
>over and torture others. Not a role-model I'd choose as a GM.

Yeah, he was pretty crazy, but I think the Carrera lady was the sadist.  You
might be right, though.  I'll have to pay attention next time and see what I
see.  But the point is that when the stakes were raised in the game, the
stakes were raised in real life.  If players agree to put money in the pot
at the risk of losing it if their character dies, then why not?  It would be
interesting to see if it works, rather than poo-pooing it just because I
posed the idea.

In fact, players of Magic at the local comic shop DO compete for money.  Do
you regard Magic as strictly a mere card game?  I don't know, myself, since
I've never played it, but it seems to have some kind of element of character
attachment to it.

>Excuse me, I have to make some rolls for my barbarians, they're
>fighting over your stuff. (Die roll, die roll, die roll....)

Hey, now THAT is dedication to the NPC's.  I like that!  ; )
>
>You don't have to hand a guy a new character every thirty seconds, you
>know. There is a happy medium...for example:
>
>The player has to sit out until a logical place for another character to
enter
>occurs, or take over one of the lesser NPC's. Instead of playing the
>Hotshot Pilot he designed, he has to take over the Tempermental Cargo
>Hand, or the Pacifistic Ship's Doctor...or have to sit out the entire
evening
>until the party is back at base and heads to the Guild House to try and
>replace their dear, departed Hotshot Pilot.

I don't know if that is a strong enough deterrent to keep dorky players from
role-playing like ninnies.  Maybe you just have a better selection of gamers
where you live.  I know we had a better selection in the Army...
>
>You make it sound like a character class. Fighter, Thief, Magic-User,
>Player-Killer....<g>

Been playing too much Diablo on the Net, I guess...
>
>While I don't actively discourage this kind of thing when it happens for
>in-game, in-character reasons, I'd think I'd gone insane if I added a
>non-game encouragement for it. If Ricky is going to betray the party
>because Ricky's player will get the last slice of pizza if he does...
>never mind. It makes my brain hurt to think about it.

That's all a character's life is worth?  A slice of pizza?  :)  Some Vargr
might agree...  I know the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would say that was
true of one of the Foot clan.
>
>Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One of the best campaigns I was even in involved a bunch of us characters
>chasing the Dupont Emeralds across the galaxy in 2300AD.  The bunch of
>emeralds got halfed and it prompted an on-going mini-battle between two
>player characters trying to kill each other through several locales.  It
was
>a great source of comic relief.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Wow - some players got interested in something that was happening
>inside the game? How did that happen? ;)

It wasn't my campaign; otherwise, I never would have let such a thing take
place.  : P

>"Minimaxed" means that the character is built to take the highest possible
>advantage of the game system. He'll carry the weapon that does the most
>damage, have the skills that make him the most dangerous...if your game
>has things like disadvantages-for-points in it, he'll pick ones that give
him
>the most points for the least pain rather than ones that define who he is
>or why he does what he does. He won't be built to be a character, he'll
>be built to be as efficient as possible.
>MINI-mum limitations + MAXimum capabilities = MINIMAX.
>
>Walt Smith
>
Ah, okay.  Got it...  Why munchkins?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:38:44 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Infuriated Clif

Clif,

I think I've figured out why things have gotten so testy again.

You've got to remember that the TML isn't a real-time chat room. You may
have "rehashed" (waffled, bitched that you meant something different and
people are putting words into your mouth, etc) a point a dozen times,
but people haven't read (or sometimes even recieved) those dozen replies 
of yours yet - when they bring the point up. You may have gotten your
point stated and restated to the point of it being what you meant to say,
you've got to realize that it takes time for all your words to get to all the
people on the list.

You're not getting a lot of arguments because people don't like you.
You're getting a lot of arguments because you make contentious
statements. This isn't a bad thing.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:38:49 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

Roger Barr wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >
> >"Delusions" would be thinking you were actually existing in that
> universe,
> >though this is the effect we strive for as good GM's, isn't it?
> 
> To a point. I have never tried to make the players (not the characters)
> feel the heat wash of a plasma gun.
> :)
> 
Obviously you're not a Hackmaster [tm] GM (in a Knights of the Dinner
Table story, B.A. tested a Fireball Generator, badly singeing Dave in
the process). 

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:43:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

>
>In my collection of odd real-life combat, I have the case of a police
>officer who got into a shoot out with an armed suspect.  Both combatants
>emptyied there weapons, at which time the suspect surrenderd.  The officer
>was in the front seat of his patrol car, the suspect in the back seat.  Not
>one shot hit.

What kind of bravo sierra are you trying to pull, Doug?  I mentioned a
situation much like this in support of one of my posts and you sighed
heavily and went on to tell me how MY REAL LIFE STORY was not real life.
You have selective memory, doncha?


>>find
>>ways of playing without doing combat.
>
>Which is why we make it clear in ACQ that the system is deadly, and should
>only be used for very important combats.
>--

What is ACQ?
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:47:04 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mark Twain once pointed out that the difference between the right word and
the almost right word was like the difference between lightning and a
lightning bug.

It's the same with death. You were saying PCs have to die frequently in
order for danger to be maintained. The difference between "severely wounded"
and "dead" is like the difference between the right word and almost right
word.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the Traveller setting, the difference between "severely wounded" and
"dead" can be extreme...pop the critically wounded character in a low
berth, head for the nearest TL13+ planet and spend money, she's healed.

In Call of Cthulu, having your leg melted by a slime creature meant that
your character was permanently using a crutch. Having your Twilight 2000 
character's arm sheared off by a flying piece of another PC's pelvic bone
(he got blown apart by an autocannon) means they call you "Lefty".
There are many games where "seriously wounded" is an evil thing to do
to your PC's - Travellers get off lightly!!!  <weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:46:03 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
>          (Gakk, when a Tech 8 defense satellite got a critical hit "ship explodes" > hit on a TL-14 asteroid ship and killed half the PC's and most of their mercenary > unit, that was an EVENT --I couldn't even cheat my way out of it since one of the > players was rolling for the opposing force.)
> 
>         Dave Nelson

For future reference:  You can always rule that the "ship explodes" crit
leads (in some cases) to an effect similar to what generally happens to
a villian's island base in a James Bond movie.  The ship is wracked by a
series of explosions, each worse than the last, culminating in the Big
Bang.  This gives the PCs and some of the NPCs a chsnce to hit the
lifepods before everything goes away.  As an added benefit, it gives the
referee a chance to engage in some good descriptive narrative, as the
ship goes through its death throes.
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:52:52 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Nightrim Site.

My web site is up again.

It's under construction at the moment, particularly the Daibei section.

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Check it out and let me know what you think.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:24:40 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

Today, if you go out and buy a can  of four of Guinness you will find that
it is brewed by appointment for HRM the Queen. In Traveller, would this be
brewed by appointment for the Emperor? I can just see the Black cylinder
with the ancient symbol of Guinness, and tastefully underneath and to one
side, a small Imperial Sunburst in gold....


GLADSTONE: "Mr Disraeli, you will probably die by the hangman's noose or a
vile disease".
DISRAELI: "That depends on whether I embrace your principles or your
mistress".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:57:50 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Paranoia: A World without^h^h^h Much Death

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> True Story:  Back in '95, when I was in the hospital after my cancer
> surgery, a group from the local game store came in with Paranoia.  I was on
> serious morphine, in a lot of pain, and I was laughing so hard my nurse had
> to keep reminding me about my staples.  It wasn't about winning, it was
> about playing a game.
> --
> 
Actually, being on potent narcotics is an effective means to simulate
the Alpha Complex setting (Personality Stabilizing Drugs, anyone?). 
Come to think of it, being in a lot of pain is also effective in evoking
that Alpha Complex Feeling.

I'd be willing to bet, though, that the therapeutic effect of enjoying a
good gaming session far outweighed the risk of pulling a few staples
loose. 

ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  If so, you
could end up with a serious infinite regress....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:05:03 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 1 (part 2)

...continuing:

On their way out-system, the Sobrendl is (of course) intercepted by the
Random Heading (corsair, see previous post) who 'reasonably' demand only the
ship's cargo (it's contents having been determined by Mustapha's old buddy
while they were in port).  (This might well have been influenced by the fact
that the Sobrendl was lightly armed (1*blaser, 1*sandcaster), and I figured
the pirates wouldn't want to risk having their ship suffer a lucky shot that
might cost too much to repair to be worth the effort.)

To this Mustapha silently gave the referee a dirty, knowing look; the Baron
sputtered about the cheek of it all, and how unsporting he found the whole
idea (before heading off to the hold with Gstag to investigate what kind
of man-portable mayhem he and Dar, er, Gstag had secreted away in the
event of a boarding action), Gigi cheerfully mentioned that she had some
breeching charges in engineering (?!?  I _have_ to pay better attention to
characters' starting equipment!) while they eventually surrendered to the
inevitable and pushed most of the Dareeshi brandy out the hold for the
Random Heading to pick up at leisure (the captain of which knew the type of
characters he was dealing with, and wasn't going to board for love or
money).

The crew, lightened by fifty-odd tons of booze, then proceeded off to
jumpspace, sulking all the way.

Someone had to explain this to Khye' (for short), and it sure as heck wasn't
going to be Mustapha, who kept a low profile.

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

My Traveller Geek Code:
tc+ tm++ tn-- t4- tg

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:03:55 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Make sure you don't bend that cable too much, or you're gonna need to splice
fiber in a very dirty environment.

- --Clif
>But seriously, a remore gun system might be the answer.  I set up the
>weapon, scuttle off about 50m with the command unit (connected by a
>fibre-optic cable) and take my shot from that position.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:12:46 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
But the point is that when the stakes were raised in the game, the
stakes were raised in real life.  If players agree to put money in the pot
at the risk of losing it if their character dies, then why not?  It would be
interesting to see if it works, rather than poo-pooing it just because I
posed the idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was against the idea because the idea of anything in my *game* having
real life consequences bothers me. Your idea sounded like turning it
into a poker game, but one where one player (the GM) got to decide
who got which cards. 

Again, Clif, you take things too personally. I had a different opinion on the
CT-Starships list about  what a certain High Guard shipbuilding rule meant,
I never once got the idea that people who disagreed with me did so because 
they hated me - I'm certain they disagreed because my reading of the rules 
was wrong.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In fact, players of Magic at the local comic shop DO compete for money.  Do
you regard Magic as strictly a mere card game?  I don't know, myself, since
I've never played it, but it seems to have some kind of element of character
attachment to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I played Magic for a few years, I've never seen it as having any character
attachment at all. People make decks, they play the game...there are
character cards in it, but they're just weapons you toss at the other
player's deck, there's really no role-playing involved.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>MINI-mum limitations + MAXimum capabilities = MINIMAX.
>
Ah, okay.  Got it...  Why munchkins?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Munchkin" is a pretty general term - it refers to people who still play
RPG's like the average junior-high hack&slash dungeon crawler is
imagined to play them. Quite derogatory - I believe the term is used
to summon up images of the Munchkins from the Wizard of Oz.

I apologize for the ageist elitism of this term, as I have met young people
with a talent for gaming. I also recall misreading the treasure tables in
my first D&D books back in 5th grade and handing out thousands of
gold pieces for killing a couple of orcs...<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:16:15 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Black Ice wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
For future reference:  You can always rule that the "ship explodes" crit
leads (in some cases) to an effect similar to what generally happens to
a villian's island base in a James Bond movie.  The ship is wracked by a
series of explosions, each worse than the last, culminating in the Big
Bang.  This gives the PCs and some of the NPCs a chsnce to hit the
lifepods before everything goes away. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
High Guard system especially promotes this idea - each combat turn
is twenty minutes long. I don't recall the time scales of the other systems,
but I think Mayday was similar.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:15:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

cjbrain wrote:
> 
> Today, if you go out and buy a can  of four of Guinness you will find that
> it is brewed by appointment for HRM the Queen. In Traveller, would this be
> brewed by appointment for the Emperor? I can just see the Black cylinder
> with the ancient symbol of Guinness, and tastefully underneath and to one
> side, a small Imperial Sunburst in gold....
> 
I would expect that Guinness would still be brewed by appointment for
HRM the King/Queen.  Why should a few millenia of strife and war prevent
the continuation of the House of Windsor, or a successor House, upon the
throne?

BTW, what kind of barbarians would want Guinness in _cans_?

<<decides not to snip entertaining sig file>>

> GLADSTONE: "Mr Disraeli, you will probably die by the hangman's noose or a
> vile disease".
> DISRAELI: "That depends on whether I embrace your principles or your
> mistress".

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:21:58 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: MT campaign outline Reavers' Deep Episode 2

[Note: before this session, held about a month after the previous due to
holiday cheer and whatnot, the Baron/Sebastien Normandin informed me that he
couldn't keep playing due to increased external demands on his time (PhD
combined with T.A.ing combined with, well, other stuff) and an old friend,
Jason Jones signed on.  Rather than force the Baron on him (*not* compatible
personality types), he rolled up an Aslan male gunner with an interesting,
checkered past and put his fate in my hands.  Also, Melissa (Umgigish) was a
last-minute no-show due to miscommunication, so I had to juggle a bit.]

The Sobrendl lurched out of jumpspace in Reavers' Deep 1810, a depressing
little vacuum backwater rock half the size of our moon that serves as home
to about 3,000 independent prospectors (two local planetoid belts) and,
presumably, to all kinds of scum and villainy and shuddered with an impact
that, among other things, knocked out the inertial compensators, sending
bodies everywhere.  The Baron was tossed around and seriously injured, the
captain (Diisham) had been in the process of heading into his acceleration
couch in the cockpit and broke his neck (fluke), Umgigish banged her head
hard enough to lose consciousness (mean referee), Kha sustained internal
injuries, Khye' banged her head hard enough to befuddle herself, and
everyone else was more or less OK.

While Gstag tended the wounded (dropping Diisham into a low berth so he
wouldn't rot, and Kha and the Baron there until medical assistance was at
hand), Edikin managed to get the inertial compensators back online and the
lasting damage was assessed: loss of the ventral (offensive) turret, and
damage to enough of the ventral jump grid to assure a misjump or worse if
left untended.  Best guess was a collision with a small asteroid nearly
matching the Sobrendl's course and speed.  Cosmic fluke (and much glaring by
the players as they calculated the truly, well astronomical odds of same).

Their maneuver drives were unaffected, so they limped into port and began
making inquiries about the possibility of repairs (hah!).  A day or so
later, who should hop into port but the Random Heading?  (The poor pirate
was rather dishevelled, however; it seems that mere hours after pillaging
the Sobrendl they suffered the attentions of the Lhshami SDB, which had
faked the extend of its damage in order to catch the pirate by surprise.)

Ascertaining that the corsair's powerplant was shut down and that there was
radiation contamination (among other less pressing problems), the players
immediately started scheming for revenge.  For some reason, they considered
assaulting and taking over the entire system (reasoning that with 3,000
miners dispersed through it how hard could it be?) until Mustapha,
surprisingly playing the voice of reason, suggested that 1-why in H*ll would
they want to try this and 2-as a known hangout of scum and villainy (and
that's just the players!), perhaps the local administration had already
considered this possibility and were prepared for it.

At this point it got late, and so we ended it there, with Gigi just coming
to with one H*ck of a headache and looking in dismay at the disarray her
ship was in....

More in Episode 3: Crooks in spaaaaaaaaaaaaace....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #142
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 143



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
Re: GMing philosophy
Re: GMing philosophy
Re: delusions of grandeur (long)
reL Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World without Death
Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: A World Without Death
Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
re: Delusions of Grandeur
Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)
"gods" and death threads
Re: GT Adventures....
Pacing (was re: A World Without Death)
Re: Nightrim Site. 
Re: Military Decorations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:16:44 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

Walter Smith said:

>In the Traveller setting, the difference between "severely wounded" and
>"dead" can be extreme...pop the critically wounded character in a low
>berth, head for the nearest TL13+ planet and spend money, she's healed.


Yes, in high-tech and high-magic type settings the difference is often a
very extreme one.

>In Call of Cthulu, having your leg melted by a slime creature meant that
>your character was permanently using a crutch. Having your Twilight 2000
>character's arm sheared off by a flying piece of another PC's pelvic bone
>(he got blown apart by an autocannon) means they call you "Lefty".
>There are many games where "seriously wounded" is an evil thing to do
>to your PC's - Travellers get off lightly!!!  <weg>


Fair enough. I'm not going to disagree here!

Personally though, I find wounds like that add character to the...
character.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:24:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>It's the same with death. You were saying PCs have to die frequently in
>order for danger to be maintained.

I did not say frequently, nor did I use a word synonymous with it.

> The difference between "severely wounded"
>and "dead" is like the difference between the right word and almost right
>word.

Oh?  Well I used killed AND disabled in the same sentence.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:27:43 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

Okay, yeah.  I can see how that would be taken the other way.

- --Clif
>The reference to "...along with the GM's reward" implies a reward either
>_for_ the GM (presumably in gratitude for running the game) or _from_
>the GM (given to the players).  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:32:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GMing philosophy

>
>>You don't seem to get my point.  Players tend to treat their characters as
>>grossly expendable because they don't feel the pain when their character
>>gets hurt.
>
>Maybe your policty of character-bashing keeps them from becoming attached.
>"Why bother when the GM is just going to kill one of us anyway.."

They weren't my players...  This is in a D&D campaign.  First role-playing
I've done in some time.  Miss the Army guys in comparison...
>
><snip>
>
>>>
>
>>Hmm, well, if there was a "pot" of money in the scenario, then it might be
a
>>darn good way to bring in the element of betrayal.  :)  Ricky sounds like
a
>>shrewd player-killer.
>
>You couldn't pay me to be in your group if that the way you run things.
>Ever read _Knights of the Dinner Table_?
>
I've picked it up.  It has even been tried, yet, so relax.  I am speaking of
players in that D&D campaign.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:34:21 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: GMing philosophy

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote

> >If your game isn't interesting enough that players want to survive 
> >'till the end already, you've got more problems with it than a pot of 
> >money will fix -

> You don't seem to get my point.  Players tend to treat their 
> characters as grossly expendable because they don't feel the pain when 
> their character gets hurt. 
> The only OTHER way I can think of to keep some players from treating 
> their characters as expendable is to rule that they cannot play the 
> rest of the campaign, if they die. 

This seems a bit harsh but you could wait until the next gaming session
to let them bring their new PC's into the campaign.

> Few GMs are willing to enforce 
> this, preferring rather to allow the player to roll up another 
> character...  This, in effect, gives a player 1000 lives.  Some OTHER 
> way to make the player "feel the pain" must be devised.

It would be nice if the players were roleplaying the _charecters_ as
people who do not want to die [most people don't] and who therefore show
some restraint in their actions however if this is not the way your
players choose to behave so be it.

How about setting up the system so that players whose charecters die &
who have to generate new ones end up with PC's who are _inferior_ to the
PC's they just lost.  There are three ways to do this 1) penalize 2nd
and future charecters during charecter generation  [limit their stats,
number of terms served, available services and races, whatever] or 2)
give player charecters sufficient rewards [experience, cash, social
position, really big guns, Ancient Artifacts, whatever it takes to make
your PC's happy - AD&D does this with levels which is a bit
munchkinistic but it does seem to work some of the time] so that old
PC's are _better_ than new ones [the easiest way to do this is to
arrange for the party to get CR 200,000 or so each, it is not enough
money to buy a ship or make big repairs to an existing one so you have
not really limited your plot options much but it is enough more than
typical cash at mustering out to make the older, richer, charecter
"better"] 3) as a GM ensure that new player charecters get less "screen
time" than established player charecters.  If their PC's get to do less
the players will have less fun & will therefore have a good reason to
keep the old PC's alive.  [Strategy 3 may not seem "fair" but
established charecters have more backgroungd that can be used as plot
hooks anyway and if it gets better players seems acceptible.]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:36:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: delusions of grandeur (long)

>Gee.  Y'know, I really shopuld be nicer to Kirsten's character them seeing
>as we've been married for 7 1/2 years, but no, I just keep treating Shandra
>like all the others.. fairly.
>
>I would really question a GM who openly accepts bribes.  What if you have a
>player who can't afford to feed you?

Did I say *I* accepted bribes?  You are so quick to assume the worst from
me.  I answered your stupid probing questions and never even got a response
from you.
>
>I would *never* give
>out favorable circumstances in the game for real-world favors.  That is the
>height of Referee munchinkism.
>--

IF YOU WILL RECALL, I was asking another ref if he had never seen this take
place.  I was not advocating it, leg man.  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:38:58 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: reL Delusions of Grandeur

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>There are many games where "seriously wounded" is an evil thing to do
>to your PC's - Travellers get off lightly!!!  <weg>

Fair enough. I'm not going to disagree here!

Personally though, I find wounds like that add character to the...
character.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, certainly. Sgt. Ramirez was quite a sight, firing the grenade launcher
off the scout car with that spare-parts arm our Doc and mechanic
cobbled together for him. The Call of Cthulu character didn't live long
enough for it to matter...apparently it's not good to be the slowest runner
in that game. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:47:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

>>The GM doesn't get the money!
>>
>>I swear you people don't read what I say.  If you insist on skimming
please
>>put me on ignore or refrain from responding.  I would prefer that.
>
>clif, I'm amazed that you even have to make a finacial incentive.

Have you been reading?  Should I send you off to fieldstrip your home
arsenal in the dark?

> My
>friends and I play for love of gaming, and each other's company.  We don't
>even keep track of who owes what for pizzia.

Geeee.... What a novel idea!
>
>True Story:  Back in '95, when I was in the hospital after my cancer
>surgery, a group from the local game store came in with Paranoia.  I was on
>serious morphine, in a lot of pain, and I was laughing so hard my nurse had
>to keep reminding me about my staples.  It wasn't about winning, it was
>about playing a game.


That's what I call dedicated.  : )  I have a pretty broad base of RPG'ing
experience since 1981 or '82, so I don't need to be reminded that games are
for having fun.

I've never played Paranoia, but I have heard it is a barrel of laughs.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:46:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur

Walter Smith said:

>Oh, certainly. Sgt. Ramirez was quite a sight, firing the grenade launcher
>off the scout car with that spare-parts arm our Doc and mechanic
>cobbled together for him. The Call of Cthulu character didn't live long
>enough for it to matter...apparently it's not good to be the slowest runner
>in that game.


The old copy of Call of Cthulhu I have doesn't even have _rules_ for
healing! The assumption was that since the Lovecraftian horrors were so
badass it wouldn't even matter... It certainly never mattered for our group.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:49:40 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>I did not say frequently, nor did I use a word synonymous with it.


To tell the truth, I don't feel like going through my old mail to see if
this was the case or not. It seemed as if that's what you were advocating.


>Oh?  Well I used killed AND disabled in the same sentence.


Fair enough. If you say you did, I will trust that you did.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:58:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>Clif, make up your mind. PC's survive something that should have killed
>them, you dismiss the entire  campaign as "Monty Haul" and "Boooring".
>Every post you've made advocates putting the players in their place so
>they won't treat their PC's as expendable...including "putting them in
>the ground every once in a while".

"ONE of them in the ground every once in a while"  Big difference.

>
>I'm not putting words in your mouth, Clif...

No, now you're taking them OUT of my mouth.  Just as bad.

>just telling you where I disagree
>with your philosophy of running a campaign. If your method works for you,
>enjoy it - but you sound awful silly protesting that what you said isn't
what
>you said.

I just demonstrated a case where you misquoted me.
>

>Maybe I'll ask a certain Tom J. to tell you how scared he felt when
>his hero team was searching for a ghost in a derelict nazi U-boat. (The
>steam radiator in the room creaked a few times, he nearly jumped out
>of his skin!) Or have Mike G. relate to you how he felt like the cops were
>waiting for him (not his character - him!) outside the door, that night his
>character carried out the cold-blooded vengeance murder of a supervillain.
>Or have Jean T. tell you  how she wept with rage when Chimera killed
>Doctor White - because it meant he took the secret of her character's
>origins with him to the grave.
>
>Player involvement, to the point of major emotional response...without
>a single drop of PC blood being spilled.
>
>I've done my work, Clif.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>
There you go patting yourself on the back, again.  But if what you say is
true, then I would say you've done a great job.  You also have very good
role-players at your disposal.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:03:10 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

>Little do you know that most fiction is
>based on a true story, whether it says "based on a true story" or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Yup. Independence Day, Lost in Space, Godzilla...all too true for the
>newspapers, but Hollywood's quest for truth will not be stopped!

It went right over your head, blind man.


That is why I said, "little do you know..."
>
>Oh, wait, you were probably talking about movies like Conspiracy Theory
>and Enemy of the State, the ones where the government is out to get Clif.
>
Who told you?  : P

>a 120 minute movie tends to have pacing much
>more in tune with an evening's game session than a 250 page novel would.
>
Novels DO have chapters...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:11:53 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

>>Douglas E. Berry:
>OK, we'll get realistic.
>
>In _The Traveller Adventure_, the characters are likely going to need to
>break in to a museum to recover the howood artifact that is the centerpiece
>of the campaign.  Odds are that even if the characters manage to pull off
>the caper without being caught (museums are designed to keep the items
>inside), I'm willing to bet that they'll leave enough evidence behind that
>a competent TL-12 cop will be able to build a case.  "But we'll be long
>gone!" you say.  Hardly.  The local authorities might just insist on a
>detailed check of all departing ships.. especially ones that ask for a
>sudden departure date.  And being a Subbie Merchant that is suddenly taking
>free time just after a major robbery.. hmm.. sounds like reasonable cause
>for a search warrant, which will turn up the Vargr who started the whole
>thing.
>
>Reasonable danger puts the ship's crew in a penal colony for three-to-five.
> Grab Adventure 8.
>
>>Douglas E. Berry<<


I agree that as presented it was way too easy for amateurs (the players) to
break into the museum and steal the artifact. However, let's assume they
make good on the initial getaway.

Being rank amateurs in thievery they leave behind lots of evidence (DNA,
fibres, etc...). What can the police do with this? Unless Aramis IYTU is an
intrusive police state, the characters DNA profiles will not be in the
poice records. Nor will the fibre signitures of their clothing.

The police would be suspicious of Gvoudzon - he created a disturbance at
the museum about the stolen artifact sometime in the previous few days. But
who is he? The museum staff threw him out without calling the police or
taking his name or fingerprinting him ;^> They will have a description,
e.g. 'very hairy'.

Closing the starport and searching all outbound ships is a ludicrous
precaution for an item of relatively little value. The police have better
things to do than stake out the starport (and the rest of the city) with
enough personnel to spot a non-descript Vargr just because the museum
director is upset. (The brooch is valuable/important only to the Kforuzeng
and Gvoudzon. The museum bought it from a pawn shop for pity's sake.)

There are possibly hundreds of subsidized merchants on the Aramis Trace
(disclaimer: i cannot find a map which shows how many worlds are on the
Aramis Trace). Why associate one performing a normal act with a minor
crime? In itself absolutely no cause for a search warrant.

It seems perfectly reasonable that the characters will make an easy escape
from Aramis. They have no connection to Gvoudzon. Gvoudzon is not
identified with the robbery by name, nor is he likely to be the only Vargr
on planet. The brooch is of curiosity value only (as far as anyone other
than the Kforuzeng knows) and the break-in is a minor crime.

However, you can have fun with the consequences. The characters' DNA
patterns will now be in the Leedor police database associated with an
unsolved minor crime. Depending on how integrated/cooperative the police
forces IYTU are, the information could also be in the Aramis police
database and in the police databases of neighbouring worlds as they get
X-boat updates. If they get arrested in an alerted jurisdiction which is
controlling enough to take identification samples for the crime committed
(or suspected), they will pop up in the routine check as wanted in Leedor
on Aramis for break-and-enter and theft (and possibly customs evasion).
Something fun to drop on the characters after they've forgotten the
original incident ;^>

(ObRealLife (TM): I remember an entertaining day when a bored rookie had
cause to run my name through the integrated police database and got all
excited about getting two pages back until he noticed why i was in the
system. All (most) law officers are. For elimination prints, etc...)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:13:17 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

Black ICE wrote:

>
> BTW, what kind of barbarians would want Guinness in _cans_?

Well, sometimes you just can't be at the pub.

Guinness-pouring should have its own skill.
Drinking as well.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:09:51 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

Oh, well then, the AD&D players I was with recently were definite
munchkins...

The teenybobber girl campaign at the next table sounded more interesting.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:13:12 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Delusions of Grandeur

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
There you go patting yourself on the back, again.  But if what you say is
true, then I would say you've done a great job.  You also have very good
role-players at your disposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Clif, you dismiss any campaign where the body count makes you think
the GM is too wimpy, and tell me I'm running some kind of boring
kiddie-rides for campaigns. Don't be surprised if I regale you with tales
of my prowness for all to shake and tremble at. <WEG>

I freely admit I have access to excellent role-players. I'd not be a tenth
the gamemaster I am without them.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I just demonstrated a case where you misquoted me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I apologize if I misrecalled the exact wording of one of your statements. 
You aren't a research project for me, I don't have your every message
kept in a save folder so I can peruse each line for pearls of wisdom.

Black Ice was nice enough to do that kind of thing for me...<G>

I responded to what I read in your posts, Clif. Judging by some of the
other responses, many others read the same things into them. Were
I alone in my misreadings, I'd take all blame for the misunderstanding.

OBTRAV:...er...ummm...GO DREADNAUGHTS!!!

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:12:54 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> Walter Smith said:
> 
<<snip>>

> >The Call of Cthulu character didn't live long
> >enough for it to matter...apparently it's not good to be the slowest runner
> >in that game.

"I don't have to run faster than It, I just have to run faster than
_you_!"

> 
> The old copy of Call of Cthulhu I have doesn't even have _rules_ for
> healing! The assumption was that since the Lovecraftian horrors were so
> badass it wouldn't even matter... It certainly never mattered for our group.

Having played CoC, I suspect that characters are expected to heal
physically during their numerous visits to insane asylums ["asyla"?],
during their bouts of restful and recuperative thumb-sucking in the
fetal position, rocking gently back and forth....  ;-)

ObTrav:  Imagine the sheer joy your players will experience upon landing
on the homeworld of the MiGo [or other Lovecraftian Horror as
required].  >;-)

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:16:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: "gods" and death threads

I feel I have exhausted what I have to say on these two matters and rather
than take up people's bandwidth, I'm going to bow out of these discussions
and try to let them die.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:37:26 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures....

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/12/99 8:23:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << Some else mentioned that they'd like to see SJG publish a GT
>  Adventures....Just wanted to say on the record...that idea has my vote
>  too..It would be good to see some new adventures out there...espically
>  helpful when u are asked to run something the night before!
>  Mike
>   >>
>
> great idea, but I'll even settle for reprints of the 13 LBB adventures, and
> the 6 double adventures....

I'd buy that in a snap too.  But they'll have to be moved ahead to the GT
timeline.
GT:BtC hints at the effects of some of the past adventures, such as Research
Station Gamma.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:43:44 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Pacing (was re: A World Without Death)

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>a 120 minute movie tends to have pacing much
>more in tune with an evening's game session than a 250 page novel would.
>
Novels DO have chapters...
>>>>>>>>>>
True, and that kind of thinking is another reason I recommend lots and lots
of reading to anyone who wants to GM. The kind of pacing you see in a
book is the kind of pacing a campaign should have.

Movies, on the other hand, provide you with the kind of pacing (IMO)
a gaming *session* should have. I'm not saying you should go from
"Princess' Ship Attacked By Star Destroyer" to "Death Star Blown Up"
in one evening, but I like my game sessions to feel like things are
moving along at a good clip.

Sometimes one of my cable channels will run serials from the 1930's
or 1950's. Much of the stuff is hokey, but the way they can break up 
a story is useful to see.

As long as we're on serials, let me mention Cliffhangers. The Cliffhanger 
concept is something you should see in the original, especially since so
many of those cliffhanger shticks are unknown to many gamers today.

I love to close an evening with an immediate danger unresolved, it helps 
ensure repeat attendence. It also leaves things on a high note, instead of 
"I'm tired. Let's leave off here and start up next week."

I've yet to have a player show up at a game and ask, "So, where were we?" 
when we left off last time with the entire team facing a horrible fate. <g>

Semi-off topic section follows:

I especially used such cliffhangers in my Justice, Inc. campaign - since
it was pulp adventures, it seemed especially appropriate. Some memorable
times we rolled end-of-session credits:

1) While the heroes' crippled seaplane fell towards the ocean below, 
a mysterious hostile fighterplane in pursuit.
2) As a giant monster, accumulated from the corpses of those washed
away by a killer flood, reared out of the river before the heroes' horrified
eyes.
3) As a sedan driven by Boss Murdock's thugs pushed the heroes' car
into the path of an oncoming train.
4) As an evil chinese warlord pulled a lever, dumping those before his
throne down a seemingly bottomless pit. (Yes, the players stood there
in front of the throne and confronted the villain. The looks on their faces
when he pulled the most cliche stunt in cliche villaindom - and succeeded
at it - was something I shall long treasure. It was the moment they totally
realized that they were in the PULPS!! <G>  )

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:02:54 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Nightrim Site. 

> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> > My web site is up again.
> > 
> > It's under construction at the moment, particularly the Daibei section.
> > 
> > http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html
> > 
> > Check it out and let me know what you think.
> > 
> > DS
> 
> Nice, <critic mode on> but I think Vincit RD 1327 is a member of the
> Confederation of Duncinae, and I'm pretty sure Traneer RD1727 isn't in the
> Confederation - I'll check my copies of Far Traveller. Most of the TNE
> sectors have only CT data (I know - keep the players in the dark!).

From the looks of it, the RD pages are a direct clone of mine.  I put Traneer 
'in' the Confederacy as of about 1120 because they were trying to bail the 
Traneers out (ref: Pilot's Guide to Drexilthar).  IMTU, they'd ceeded some 
territory to the Confederacy, and that's where the main starport is now.

Vincit wasn't a member due to its proximity to the Duchy of Marlheim; they 
were trying to stay neutral in the 'cold war' that was heating up between 
these two states and trying not to be in the crossfire.  IMTU, they prefer to 
be friends with the Duncinaens, but it's nothing overt.  Typical lone-world 
politics in the Deep...
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:17:04 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Military Decorations

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> The six canonical are:
>
> Combat Service Ribbon
> Combat Command Ribbon
> Purple Heart
> Meterorious Conduct Under Fire
> Medal for Conspicous Gallantry
> Starburst for Extreme Heroism
>
> Unoffically, the Marines have a "drop slash" worn on the neck of the dress
> uniform.

Some from the Alien Modules:

Zhodani:
[Service]  Hero Medal (Naval Hero Medal, Army Hero Medal, etc.)

Solomani:
Blood Crest (same a purple heart)
Solomani Starburst
Order of Sol
Banner of Terra

Darrian:
Wound Badges
Confederation Medal Xth Class (1st is lowest

Vargr:
As above (Purple Heart, MCUF, MCG, SEH)

K'Kree:
Kr'negrl (Purple Heart)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #143
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 144



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A World Without Death
Droyne coyns (was Grandfather and the Aslan)
15mm Miniatures
Re: Human Judges are "gods"
Proving my point
Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
The Repository, LIC
Re: Laser Fire
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Starships
MT Starship Combat
Re: A World Without Death
Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)
12mm ETC Handgun-12 (longish)
Re: Infuriated Clif
Re: Alien biology question
Re: Alien biology question
Re: Shipyard rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:24:28 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

Clif wrote:

> It went right over your head, blind man.

If you're going to stoop to personal insults, I suggest you leave the list.

Permanently.

Your posts now get filtered to the trash heap.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:36:40 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Droyne coyns (was Grandfather and the Aslan)

Hans Rancke wrote, about 1MB of digests ago, that I should comment on his
coyn posting (of digest 93 for those keeping score).  So, here are some
comments...

>>>>>>>>>> [snippage of text  re the pre Ancient coyn set - listed below]

Worker     Warrior      Drone       Technician   Sport    Leader
 Void       Soil         Air         Gas          Water    Fire
 Darkness   Cold         Noise       Signal       Heat     Light
 Genesis    Aspiration   Sacrifice   Defeat       Death Achievement
Beast      Mercenary    Voyages     Justice      Chance   Phoenix
Hissayt    Emissyob     Ayvaylk     Bestoy       Nebbay   Hayyarn
 Droyne     Eskaloyt

 I would suggest that Beast is redundant in the face of having a set of
zoological coyns already.  While this set represents 'prey', many ancient
human "prey" beasts included carnivores such as wolves and bears.  At
least, hunters had to deal with them on a regular basis, and if they killed
one its meat was as good as any other animal.  Droyne would probably have
some fearsome creature depicted on the zoological set, that Grandfather
would later use as the Beast coyn.  Most likely it would be an idealized
representation and not too accurate a depiction of the original creature.

The different animals of the zoo set would have each carried a different
significance, aside from their actual representations.  Like ox, snake, or
wolf do in human cultures.  It might be your lucky day if you ran across a
herd of dimwitted Hissayt, but watch out if you see a Hayyarn pack.  Or, a
particularly low intelligence Worker could be referred to as a Hissayt,
while a cunning warrior could be nicknamed Hayyam.  Of course, you don't
want to anthropomorphize when discussing alien psychology...

So if you drop Beast you have a whole in that set.  What do you call it?
Conditional set?  Taking a clue from Tarot, I would include the World,
Eskaloyt, in that set.  Just because of the association of World with
Voyages and Chance, maybe Justice and Phoenix.  But it would fit in the
Genesis, etc., just as well...

Now you have whole in accounting for 2 spares in the 38 coyns set.  I like
the Droyne coyn out alone, symbolizing the unity of the race and its
mastery over fate.  The coyn opposite this should symbolize the opposite,
disunity, the failure of the race over fate.  A chirper, the ultimate
failure and yet the begining, akin to the Fool card in Tarot.  The image of
the Chirper should haunt the Droyne, since the failure to caste would be
akin to humans turning into homo erectus, semi intelligent monsters.  But,
as immature Droyne are basically Chirper, this could also represent
potential, a begining.

BTW , I'm assuming that Chirpers were known to the preAncient Droyne.
Since casting is linked to civilization, any group that lost civilzation
(isolated on the homeworld somehow, the sublight colonies...) could have
devolved into Chirpers.  Rare, but known.

Since Chirper appear as immature Droyne, this may be hard to visualize on
the coyn.  Perhaps a Chirper holding a well recognized primitive implement,
such as a digging stick (a perverted symbol of the leader spear?) that
might also be similar to young Droyne play sticks (reaching as far as I
can...).


So the changes work out to this

Eskaloyt   Mercenary    Voyages     Justice      Chance   Phoenix


 Droyne     Chirper



 And some suggestions on the design of the coyns
>>>>>
 Air         A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
Gas         A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).

 Since Droyne are somewhat avian, I would have Air represented by several
flying Droyne, with 'wind' lines around them.  For Gas the wind lines are
heavier, almost cross hatching, and the Droyne depicted dropping down,
wings trailing, obviously dying.  Hope can then be the rain cloud.


Just a couple of suggestions...

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:11:34 -0800
From: The Woodlands <woodland@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: 15mm Miniatures

Does anyone out there have any 15mm Traveller or Striker miniatures they
would be willing to part with.  I'm trying to get more for Striker combat. 

Let me know.

Jon.
Jon and Beth Woodland
woodland@pacificcoast.net
Visit Red 24's Home Page at http://www.pacificcoast.net/~woodland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:49:28 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Human Judges are "gods"

<snip>
>Exactly!  Which means the CHARACTER(it being the more IMPORTANT
element than
>the player in this debate) would then be in the total control
(really, it
>always was...) of the GM, the "god" of the universe.

The blunt response : Until the player beats the shit out of the GM,
stopping only when the GM will do whatever the player wants,  , at
which point the player is now god of the universe.

However, here's a reasoned counter-argument. The GM does not have the
final say over the "existence" of his universe. It only "exists" when
there are players willing to play in it. If no-one plays, there is no
"universe". If the GM makes use of his "power" in any way in which a
majority of the players disagree, it is likley he will lose all power
because the game will not continure, and therefore neither will the
"universe".
Thus while the GM may have "ultimate power"  (as ET's freind  would
say ), he only gets to excercies it if his players let him.

Second counter argument : I have often played in campaigns where most
of the players also GM'd the same "universe". In these cases people
often controlled certain aspects of the game ( for instance in my
current mage game I leave all decisions and rulings with regard to
werewolves to one of my players who is far more ofay with the Werewolf
rules than I am, and another player is running a secondary campagin in
the same universe ) Thus, the GM may _not_ have "ultimate power" in
all circumstances.

>>  More than likely, if they said anything, they would say
>>"this is stupid, I'm leaving".
>
>And they would cease to have any role in their character's
development IN
>THAT UNIVERSE, showing how powerless the player is, compared to the
GM/
>"god"/"mighty one".

Except they could easily take the _same_character_ and use it another
game that was run by another GM
Or start one of their own, in which the character becomes an important
NPC.

They then say the _real_ character is one they've kept, the other is
just a pale imitation created in a hurry by the previous GM to try and
disguise the fact that the character just disapppeared from "THAT
UNIVERSE". How does the poor old GM prove otherwise ? The simple
answer is he can't, because the player owns the character.

Of course in a mature, non-totalitarian game, the GM (or "facilitator"
as I prefer to call her ) and the player_share_ control of the
character.

>The debate isn't about whether you care, but about whether the GM is
in the
>position of "god" in his universe.  The answer is "yes."  The PC is
>powerless to alter anything about the universe unless the GM/god so
allows
>it.

This all assumes that you're using a rules system (or a game contract)
that does not allow the players to control the universe as well. For
instance the "plot points" of Theatrix allow the player to tell the GM
what happens in a scene. The GM has no choice ( according to the
rules) but to accept the players description of events.

Then there's Amber.....

<snip>
>Pure crap.  I go into a game assuming that the Ref is playing the
role of
>"god."  All of my players have always assumed that.  It is ASSUMED,
so no
>big deal is made about it.

I've never gone into a game assuming either I or the GM was a god.

Well, except for that Runequest game about the GodWars, and that other
game where I played the god of War, and managed to embarass the god of
Sleaze....

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:38:30 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Proving my point

Actually, Clif has been proving my point all the while.  He said the GM 
is the "god" of the game. I said it was a bad analogy and most GMs who 
refer to themselves as "gods" have delusions of grandeur.  He countered 
with references to reality and in the game.  Later he changed his mind; 
no I was talking about in the game only.  He also said a number of 
things that got responses from others on the TML.  Since they disagreed 
with Clif's ideas and GMing style, he countered by putting them down 
("stupid probing", "It went right over your head, blind man", "Duh!", 
and so on) or he 'didn't say that/ had qualified that'.  If anyone tried 
to defend against his putdowns of their games he responded by saying 
"There you go patting yourself on the back, again.", "Yeah, yeah, pat 
yourself on the back.", and "Means nothing to me to hear you toot your 
own horn.". He is also convinced he is right and everyone else is wrong 
or they have an inability to understand him ("I swear you people don't 
read what I say.", "Do you not read the specific language I am using?", 
"I won't belabour it by rehashing the points I made which you 
conveniently seemed to miss.", "Have you been reading?", "then that 
point was irrelevant to our discussion.", and "I just demonstrated a 
case where you misquoted me.").  Yes, he is proving my point quite well; 
it's a bad analogy and most GMs who refer to themselves as "gods" have 
delusions of grandeur.

Clif will probably make some condescending or qualifying response.  It 
won't make much difference, I think most of you understand my point.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:04:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

In mail you write:

> However, you can have fun with the consequences. The characters' DNA
> patterns will now be in the Leedor police database associated with an
> unsolved minor crime. Depending on how integrated/cooperative the police
> forces IYTU are, the information could also be in the Aramis police
> database and in the police databases of neighbouring worlds as they get
> X-boat updates. If they get arrested in an alerted jurisdiction which is
> controlling enough to take identification samples for the crime committed
> (or suspected), they will pop up in the routine check as wanted in Leedor
> on Aramis for break-and-enter and theft (and possibly customs evasion).
> Something fun to drop on the characters after they've forgotten the
> original incident ;^>

I'd say that info regarding *minor* crimes gets limited distribution.
How many burglary reports get sent outside the *city* they occur in?

> (ObRealLife (TM): I remember an entertaining day when a bored rookie had
> cause to run my name through the integrated police database and got all
> excited about getting two pages back until he noticed why i was in the
> system. All (most) law officers are. For elimination prints, etc...)

I've got a friend who is a biker. He works a regular job, but he still
drops by the clubhouse occasionally, and his job is such that he still
has the beard and long hair. He also has a concealed carry permit. 

It used to be that on a fairly regular basis he'd notice a cop
following him for a few blocks, and then he'd get pulled over for a
"routine traffic stop" for some minor thing or another. He figured it
was just because he "looked suspicious".

He noted that after he got the permit, things changed a bit. Now he
sees the cop start following, and then the cop generally quits
following. 

He figures that this is because when they run his plates, the concealed
carry permit comes up, and they decide that they've got better things
to do than bother somebody that they "know" has a gun. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 07:34:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: The Repository, LIC

I just realized that, despite the fact it's in my signature, I haven't yet
publically announced my webpage to the folks on the list. It's up and
running, there's a link at the bottom.

It's got a Traveller Classifieds section for finding players and games in
your area, so definately check it out if that's your sort of thing. 5
entries and counting! :^/

It's also got a collection of my cultural tidbits. As I HTMLize stuff from
my campaign, I'll be sliding some more stuff in there. Until then, there's
still something behind every button. Due to the way I set up the pages, keep
in mind that there are clickable links in the right hand sidebar. The page
looks screwy under 800x600, but I'm working on a low-res version.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 05:36:58 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Laser Fire

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE57DC.0A426E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Given that laser beams are *very* thin, it would need to be a very short =
wavelength radar system.  Also, I seem to recall reading that meteors =
etc do actually produce their own "radio" signal - I cannot remember why =
or how though.

Finally, since lasers move at the speed of light, by the time you see it =
it has gone anyway.  The only really sure place to see a laser beam =
(Hollyweird not included) is from directly in front...  Ouch.

Long live the... Aaarrgghh!

- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE57DC.0A426E60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Given that laser beams are *very* =
thin, it would=20
need to be a very short wavelength radar system.&nbsp; Also, I seem to =
recall=20
reading that meteors etc do </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>actually produce=20
their own &quot;radio&quot; signal - I cannot remember why or how=20
though.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Finally, since lasers move at the speed of light, by =
the time=20
you see it it has gone anyway.&nbsp; The only really sure place to see a =
laser=20
beam (Hollyweird not included) is from directly in front...&nbsp;=20
Ouch.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Long live the... =
Aaarrgghh!</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE57DC.0A426E60--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:07:35 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

	One thing aboout  that particular "ship explodes" event.  This was a fight
that the PC's undertook completely voluntarily.   Indeed they were the
aggressors.  They had been hired by one nation on a balkanized world to fight
another.   The situation was that the entire world had funded a defense
satellite with a big nuclear missile bay (TL-8 MT) and the treaty stated that
it would be used against any attack on any nation that took place from space.
The PC's had a choice, land their troops and fight out the ticket using ground
forces alone OR attack the station and, if they won, they would be able to use
their ship  to provide ortillery.   They just couldn't resist the option of
using their ortillery and got their ship cracked wide open.   I couldn't
justify anything except a big explosion since the attack was made with a big
nuclear weapon bay.

In a message dated 2/13/99 11:19:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< Black Ice wrote:
 >>>>>>>>>>>>
 For future reference:  You can always rule that the "ship explodes" crit
 leads (in some cases) to an effect similar to what generally happens to
 a villian's island base in a James Bond movie.  The ship is wracked by a
 series of explosions, each worse than the last, culminating in the Big
 Bang.  This gives the PCs and some of the NPCs a chsnce to hit the
 lifepods before everything goes away. 
 >>>>>>>>>>>>
 High Guard system especially promotes this idea - each combat turn
 is twenty minutes long. I don't recall the time scales of the other systems,
 but I think Mayday was similar.
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 06:29:36 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):

Annic Nova - Alien artifact
Broadsword class cruiser (10 decks!)
Sulieman Scout Courier
Donosev survey ship
Empress Marava Far Trader
Gazelle close escort
Kinunir colonial cruiser
March subsidised merchant
Pride of Vland long liner (4 decks)
Leviathan merchant cruiser (8 decks)
Prosperity Tukera trader
Safari Ship
Storm troop/drop ship
Vargr scout courier
Vargr Corsair
X-boat
X-boat tender


Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):

Annic Nova - Alien artifact
Broadsword class cruiser (10 decks!)
Sulieman Scout Courier
Donosev survey ship
Empress Marava Far Trader
Gazelle close escort
Kinunir colonial cruiser
March subsidised merchant
Pride of Vland long liner (4 decks)
Leviathan merchant cruiser (8 decks)
Prosperity Tukera trader
Safari Ship
Storm troop/drop ship
Vargr scout courier
Vargr Corsair
X-boat
X-boat tender



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:09:54 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: MT Starship Combat

Which is correct?

Page 93 Meson Weapons: -2 if target is at far range (worse attack).

or

Page 97 Meson Weapons: -1 if target is at far range (worse attack).

Thanks
Jens
- --------------------------------------------------------------
emailto:Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:25:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> In _The Traveller Adventure_, the characters are likely going to need to
> break in to a museum to recover the howood artifact that is the centerpiece
> of the campaign.  Odds are that even if the characters manage to pull off
> the caper without being caught (museums are designed to keep the items
> inside), I'm willing to bet that they'll leave enough evidence behind that
> a competent TL-12 cop will be able to build a case.  "But we'll be long

I've heard dark, giggling rumors about how a certain enactment of the
_Traveller Adventure_ saw the PCs steal the Scout/Courier in the museum
and use it for their getaway.  I wasn't there at the time, but perhaps
someone who was could explicate further?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:39:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> ObTrav:  Imagine the sheer joy your players will experience upon landing
> on the homeworld of the MiGo [or other Lovecraftian Horror as
> required].  >;-)

In my semi-defunct Sayat writeups, the Mi-Go in fact menaced the Sayat and
their neighbors in recent historical times.  Hard-Trav explanation:  they
were mutant/degenerate Droyne with a bunch of icky cybernetic hardware
grafted on to them.  Yuggoth is still circling out there someplace,
though...

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:45:38 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: 12mm ETC Handgun-12 (longish)

>>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>>At Trav-TL 12 it is possible to make a handgun with the following 
>>stats.
>>
>>Dam:     6
>>Recoil:  2
>>Wt:      2.12 kg
>>Length:  28 cm
>>
>>If anyone is interested in stats then I will gladly post it to the 
>>list. 
>
>Always :)
>
>Ian Whitchurch

By popular demand (I've always wanted to say that)...

<Ta-Da> (Trumpets)

Designed with FF&S v2

Arms & Ordinance 12x27mm ETC Performance Excel AutoPistol
TL: 12.
Ammo: 12x27mmE.
Muzzle Energy: 3337 J.
Receiver Type: Light, Semiautomatic.
Barrel Type: Light, Rifled.
Barrel Length: 13 cm.
Weapon Length: 28 cm.
Weapon Weight (L/E): 2.12 kg/1.87 kg.
Weapon Price: 3521 Cr.
Magazine Weight (L/E): 0.51 kg/0.24 kg.
Magazine Price: 56 Cr
Ammunition Price: 1.22 Cr/round.
Ammunition Weight: 24.4 g. 
Bulk: 1
Rof: SA
Magazine Capacity: 11M.

Ammo type	Dam	Recoil 	Short range
12x27mmE Ball	6	2	30
12x27mmE DS	6	2	35
12x27mmE HE	7	2	22
12x27mmE Tranq	-1	2	13

Features: Shock-absorbing stock, Recoil compensator, Advanced receiver 
and barrel material-12, Laser Sight (Range: 40m).
Options: Colour, handgrip, electronics, etc

Description

This is the most powerful handgun in the high-tech limited edition 
Performance Excel line that A&O have produced to date. The price 
(3500Cr) means that only a select crowd will have the possibility to own 
the weapon (nobles, filthy rich types, travellers and PC:s that is). The 
muzzle energy is equal to the archaic TL:8 7.62mm Nato _Rifle_ a calibre 
that on Terra/Sol was used among other things to hunt a large herbivore 
known as elk/moose.

All Performance Excel weapons comes with a pair of really cool 
sunglasses, which can be uses to project the picture from a camera under 
the barrel (house rule 1 to hit/3 aimed shots, the camera replaces the 
laser-sight), and can be customised for no or little extra cost on the 
request from the buyer. You can of course get it in any colour you want 
(silver with pearl handgrip), triton night-sight, ammo counter etc. The 
only thing that is impossible to get is extra quality (case _thats 
impossible  A&O Lead Designer). 

The default gun is black with a matted furnish. The unusually large 
barrel with the underlying laser-sight is, together with the strange 
design of the somewhat blocky receiver, the trademark of a Performance 
Excel handgun. The A&O quality seal are on Performance Excel weapons 
made of gold, silver, platinum or (some other metal preferably black  
Iridium? any ideas? Help wanted).

The laser sight is a scaled down version of the usual lasersight-12.

I dont know about you but Im going cobold hunting.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:45:56 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Infuriated Clif

Walt Smith wrote
>I think I've figured out why things have gotten so testy again.
>
>You've got to remember that the TML isn't a real-time chat room. You 
>may have "rehashed" (waffled, bitched that you meant something 
>different and people are putting words into your mouth, etc) a point >a 
dozen times, but people haven't read (or sometimes even recieved) >those 
dozen replies of yours yet - when they bring the point up. You >may have 
gotten your point stated and restated to the point of it >being what you 
meant to say, you've got to realize that it takes >time for all your 
words to get to all the people on the list.
>
>You're not getting a lot of arguments because people don't like you.
>You're getting a lot of arguments because you make contentious
>statements. This isn't a bad thing.

This is the reason why I never post anything until I have read all 
unread post (note this is not strictly possible in digest mode).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."
- --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:13:13 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

>It's also been theorized that certain silicate(?) compounds/structures
>found in clays may have acted as templates for early protien formation.
>If so, maybe in the high rad environment, the first cells kept a chunk
>of the "clay" with them. This could lead to a sort of "silicate"
>backboned genetic material.

>NO, I don't have references for the clay idea. I read it in something.
>Possibly an old Scientific American.

Dawkins used it as an example in one of his popular evolution books (The 
Extended Phenotype?) (IIRC the reference was Cairns-Smith).

There are examples in nature of creatures carrying more than just their 
DNA into the next generation.

The idea of a cell/nucleus with an embedded radiation shield/protector 
sounds biologically possible, probable even in these circumstaces. Any 
Geneers on the list care to comment?

It's also quite likely that we will find ways of promoting DNA repair 
mechanisms out of the current research into cancer.





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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:35:48 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

David P. Summers
"The problem with DNA and radiation is, I believe, that the
radiation comes along and cleaves the strand.  The strand
then has to be fixed correctly.  Replacing it with other 
polymers won't change that."

	This is, as I understand it, the way it happens. I was
	wondering, however, whether or not other polymers are
	less susceptible to radiation cleavage.

"Solutions are multiple copies of DNA (some radiation resistant
bacteria do this), addition strands (some redundant?), improved
repair abilities."

	In complex organisms, multiple copies of DNA are not 
	always going to help without sophisticated repair 
	mechanisms. Even if there are three undamaged and one
	damaged gene for (say) hemoglobin, your blood will not 
	function very well if one quarter of the hemoglobin is
	flawed.

"Also, small genomes would be good to.  A lot
of DNA doesn't code for anything, but represents places it can
be damage, you want to reduce this.  (Pine trees suffered more
at Chernoybl (sp?) becase they have large genomes)."

	Why would this be? We all have loads of DNA that is never
	transcribed, but random changes in these sections are
	very unlikely to cause any harm. I would be interested
	if you have a reference for the Chernobyl pine trees.


Ian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:20:21 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Shipyard rules

At 12:55 29-1-99 +0000, Phil Kitching wrote:
>Unless I am misunderstanding this construction style, I would
>have thought it very common for ships built in orbit - build a hull,
>put an atmosphere inside it, then drag it outside your valuable
>shipyard space and add all the interior stuff.
>
>This is much the way in which Ships are built today, with the ship
>being launched before all the interior stuff is done.

This brings back memories - my first boat was still under construction when
I reported aboard, and I later had to get used to certain changes (after
they put in the wall between the torpedo room and 21-man, for instance - it
was originally easier to walk through that space than through where the
door was).

When I left Norfolk for Pearl, though (1986), Newport News was building
bird farms (aircraft carriers) using the modular system.


James

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #144
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Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 145



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Size of Staterooms (was Re: 101st Batron (various) (and  long now.))
Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML - OT
Re: Paranoia: A World without^h^h^h Much Death
Re: Proving my point
Re: Domain of Deneb
Re: A World without Death
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler
Re: Proving my point
Re: Starships
Re: A World without Death
Leedor museum scout ship
Re: Laser Fire
Re: Shipyard rules
Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler
Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)
Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
Re: Lecture Tour (longish)
Status of the AAB circa 1120
eldritch horror of ... (fluff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:06:24 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Size of Staterooms (was Re: 101st Batron (various) (and  long now.))

At 16:02 1-2-99 +0000, Charles Prevatte wrote:
>Many of the Traveller
>>military or semi military ships I have designed have put junior officers
>>singly into small staterooms (so they have privacy) while  putting four
>>crew into a large stateroom (double occupancy & hot bunking).
>>
>
>I agreed the the military would use tighter accomodations but make use of
>more common areas to make up for it.

Just for the record, on a 688 class SSN:

   - The skipper has a stateroom which probably measures (I'm at home now,
so I can't check) about 8'x6.5'.  This includes a bunk which folds up into
the wall, a table with two chairs (which form the supports for the bunk
when it is opened up), and a desk.
   - The XO has a stateroom which is about the same size.  It includes a
double bunk (the spare is used by senior riders, as when the commodore
decides to visit for a day or few) and a desk.
   - Department heads and senior division officers are in three three-man
staterooms, maybe a wee bit smaller than the XO's.  Each includes a triple
bunk, two fold-down desks, and various lockers (which are used mainly for
storing paperwork, not personal gear).
   - The twelve senior CPOs share a berthing space which is basically four
triple bunks - two on each side of a passage that's not quite as wide as a
bunk.  (Call it 8' x 13', at a guess.)  Attached is a small lounge (maybe
8' x 8'), which is mostly taken up by a table with banquettes around it.
   - The remaining crew are in four berthing spaces:
      - forward berthing (24 bunks)
      - aft berthing (39)
      - the 9-man bunkroom (take a guess)
      - the 21-man bunkroom (ditto)
All berths are triple bunks (some slightly smaller than most).  Each space
also includes a few lockers, mostly for personal gear but some for
equipment.  (The ship's divers, for instance, have a good-sized locker in
after berthing.)  JOs who don't live in the staterooms live in the 9-man;
CPOs who aren't in the goat locker usually berth in 9-man or forward berthing.

This adds up to a total of 117 racks (including the spare in the XO's
stateroom), for a crew of around 130-135.  Temporary racks (usually six)
can be set up in the torpedo room if we don't have a full weapons loadout
(the racks go on the weapon stows).  Junior personnel hotrack, of course -
normally three people for two bunks - and there are almost always people
left behind when we get under way, whether on leave, in school, or whatever.

Oh, yeah - heads:

   - The CO and XO share one (one shower, one toilet, and a fold-up sink in
each stateroom).
   - The three wardroom staterooms share one (one shower, one toilet, one
urinal, one sink, plus a fold-up sink in each of the three staterooms).
   - The goat locker has its own head (one shower, one toilet, two sinks).
This is also used by some of the CPOs who live in other berthing spaces,
but they're just as likely to use the middle-level head.
   - Forward and aft berthing are connected by the middle-level head (two
showers, three toilets, one urinal, four sinks).  This is also used by
enlisted types from 9-man; officers, of course, use the wardroom head.
   - 21-man uses the lower-level head (one shower, one toilet, two sinks).

As for common areas, the goat-locker lounge has already been mentioned.
The officers have the wardroom (maybe 15' x 9'), which is mainly taken up
by the table (the CO's chair at one end, four chairs along one side,
banquettes along the other end and side).  The crew's mess (maybe 17' x
20') has three 4-man and two 6-man tables, and the serving line.  Wardroom
and crew's mess are used as dining rooms, of course, and between meals as
lounges, lecture halls, conference rooms, &c.  (The wardroom table also
serves as the corpsman's operating table in case of an emergency.)

One galley serves everyone.  Officers normally eat in the wardroom (there
are occasions when JOs may be eating out with the crew), and the enlisted
crew eat on the mess decks; one of the 6-man tables is normally reserved
for CPOs (and the very rare stray JO).

Headroom in all spaces is somewhere around six feet - I'm 5'10, and can hit
my head on overhead lights in some places if I'm not careful.


James

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:17:01 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML - OT

At 23:12 13-2-99 -0600, Black ICE wrote:
>Having played CoC, I suspect that characters are expected to heal
>physically during their numerous visits to insane asylums ["asyla"?],
>during their bouts of restful and recuperative thumb-sucking in the
>fetal position, rocking gently back and forth....  ;-)

"...the Happy Home, with trees and flowers and chirping birds and
basket-weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes...."

8)


James

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:56:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Paranoia: A World without^h^h^h Much Death

At 09:57 PM 2/13/99 -0600, you wrote:

>I'd be willing to bet, though, that the therapeutic effect of enjoying a
>good gaming session far outweighed the risk of pulling a few staples
>loose. 

You bet, especially when the 3rd year med student came in and asked me how
I was doing and I told him that the information requested was not avalible
at his security clearence.  (I was in a white pair of hospital pants, he
was wearing red scrubs.. how dare a lowly Red-level speak to an Ultraviolet!)

>ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  If so, you
>could end up with a serious infinite regress....

I think there would be a strong market for VR-based systems ala _Dream
Park_.  Computer-based RPGs would probably be standard on ships to combat
boredom.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry            dberry@hooked.net 
   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html   

"I'm just like anybody else, I want to be a non-conformist too." 
                                     -Lenny Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:01:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

>
>Clif will probably make some condescending or qualifying response.  It 
>won't make much difference, I think most of you understand my point.
>
Not one to disappoint... "Oh 'god' of all GM 'gods', mold me as clay."  : P

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:22:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Domain of Deneb

"Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com> wrote:

>This must come as a shock to the Darrians, the Sword Worlds, the Federation
>of Arden, and all the Zhodani and non-aligned worlds within those same
>boundaries, not to mention the Solomani worlds in the Domain of Sol.

Well, the Darrians are a client state ;-) and Reft doesn't actually have
any solomani worlds in it ;-)

But if you look at the MT maps defining the sectors with each Domain you'll
see what I mean. I think we can probably accept the Imperium has given up
on taking Zho space, but you could argue that they've annexed part of the
Sword Worlds...

So, although these systems may be independent of the Imperium, any Imperial
controlled system within the defined Domain limits is under the Arch Duke's
wing.

Walt explained it more clearly than I did.

Dom



- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:30:27 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

clif>>What I have found happening with GM's who play the realistic 'War and
>>combat kills...life sucks...deal with it' kind of game end up selecting
>>for players who deal with creating new characters all the time or find
>>ways of playing without doing combat.
>
>Which is why we make it clear in ACQ that the system is deadly, and should
>only be used for very important combats.

Normal T4 combat is deadly, and doesn't have the risk of running out of AP
to react that ACQ has. My players had a healthy aversion to firearms (and
as crew of a merchant ship sacked a colleague who insisted in waving a
snub-auto around and threatening people).

In six months, playing once a week we only had one real gunfight, which
hospitalised one player. The Only starship fight they had left them with a
2 MCr bill for repairs.

My real feeling of success came when the players got more twitchy about
restaurants than gunfights :-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:42:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

>We had a funeral for him, all the other players read euolgies from their
>characters; it was a momentous occassion, and it really hit everyone.
>That's how a PC death should be.

My last sustained campaign ended when one of the characters (the ship's
steward) fiance (the ship's pilot) died in a mugging. (*) The party had
been through hell; the captain unable to hack it and turning to drink, the
ship stuck in a high port due to Navy activity, the Aslan Engineer insulted
by the captain, the 'management trainee' merchant in hospital from a pirate
hit on his turret. The steward was pregnant, and the second engineer was an
IISS agent (Vilani) who had infiltrated the group to investigate rumours of
a visit to an interdicted world. The death of the pilot, just after the
whole party had started to pull together again was devastating to us all
emotionally (as players as well as characters). We ended the game the next
session as no one could get out of the down:

The Aslan Engineer quit after the Captains' insult.
The Steward quit the ship with the Aslan after the Captain's insult and her
partner's death.
The trainee was in hospital.
The Scout was okay, but the captain had a breakdown.

It was quite a shock to the system.

Dom

(*) The player had other commitments and wanted out of the game, so we
planned this out some time before.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:21:32 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>You've reminded me of something I read somewhere. They clathrates are a
>sort of reddish orange color, and look (and act) rather like an odd
>sort of ice.
>
>As I recall, they are stable at temps somewhat above 4C, which, being
>the temp at which water is densest, is the temp of just about all deep
>sea regions.
>
>All you need to form the stuff is methane (bacteria in a low oxygen
>environment such as the sea bottom produce lots of it as they break
>down organic materials in the bottom "ooze"), water, and moderate
>pressures (also found on the sea bottom).

That's pretty much summarised in the book but not in as much details. ISTR
that the clathrates are one of the possible mechanisms to explain the
losses of ships/planes in the Bermuda Triangle.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:09:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

- ---Clay _ <baalan@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Clif will probably make some condescending or qualifying response.
It won't make much difference, I think most of you understand my point.<

Duh! It went right over my head, blind man. ;-)







==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:15:20 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Current vote [with unsolicited comments]:

Large passenger liner (6)

Patrol Ship/Frigate/Corvette (5)

Large freighter (4)
Destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (4)
SDB/Monitor (4)
Space station or small highport w/modular components (4)
Yacht (4)

[These have been fairly stable over the last few requests -- I think we
have our winners. Of these, the Dragon-class SDB was in Traders and
Gunboats, but may need updating for GT. The Patrol Ship was discussed
earlier. I don't think there are existing plans for the others, unless
someone can point to plans for a Yacht.]

Dreadnaught (3)

[Difficult to do, unless you restrict the plans to just the "important
bits" -- bridge, brig, spacedock/hangar,
big-trench-with-tractor-beam-controls. A size-comparison chart for all the
existing designs (including the Tigress or equivalent) might do the trick,
however.]

Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava-class, perhaps J3) (2)
Old/low-tech merchant ship (2)
400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
Cruiser (around 20 ktons) (2)
Carrier w/ fighters (2)
Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (2)
IISS survey cruiser (2)
Medium exploration ship (1000-2000 dTons) (2)
Non-Imperial warship (2)
Ancients' military ship (2)
400td Corsair (as opposed to the Vargr Corsair) (2)
Ship tender/Jump ship (from Fighting Ships) (2)

[That leaves three plans from this list. I suspect the scout/survey-type
ships may show up in GT:First In. Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons,
with a conversion to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. What three plans
would people pick from this list, or are there more votes to be counted?]


Deckplans already published for GT:
	Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
	Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
	Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
	Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
	Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
	Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp. 68-71)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:37:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, SD Mooney wrote:

>>Which is why we make it clear in ACQ that the system is deadly, and should
>>only be used for very important combats.
>
>Normal T4 combat is deadly, and doesn't have the risk of running out of AP
>to react that ACQ has. My players had a healthy aversion to firearms (and
>as crew of a merchant ship sacked a colleague who insisted in waving a
>snub-auto around and threatening people).

TNE combat is not by far as deadly, but after only a few sessions my players
are really starting to avoid combats as far as they can. And their hired
as mercenaries to perform a smash and grab pre-strike mission. They have
only low power weapons and have noticed that the TED on thsi world has
some seroius fire power, so they are moving very slowly and considering
their moves very carefully. 

>In six months, playing once a week we only had one real gunfight, which
>hospitalised one player. The Only starship fight they had left them with a
>2 MCr bill for repairs.

We have so far had two real gunfights in four sessions. The first was a
ambush by some tugs (think Mel Gibson "Mad Max" like gang) in some ruins.
Low tech weapons against a team of trained militaries. So it wasn't that
dangerous. The second was an ambush set up by the players on an contra-grav
APC. This left one characther killed (he was actually only seriously hurt, but
the guy playing him had to throw in his towel due to work. He is still playing
with us, just not as often). After this their making damn sure that if
their getting into a firefight their going to have the upper hand.

>My real feeling of success came when the players got more twitchy about
>restaurants than gunfights :-)

After my players saw a display of some surface to surface missiles
from the local TED, their going to stay away from combat until it
is unavoidable. The sight of armed people really makes them nervous.


>Dom

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:14:29 -0500
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Leedor museum scout ship

> I've heard dark, giggling rumors about how a certain enactment of the
> _Traveller Adventure_ saw the PCs steal the Scout/Courier in the museum
> and use it for their getaway.  I wasn't there at the time, but perhaps
> someone who was could explicate further?

I wasn't in that one, but I've had players hide in the landing-gear
wells until night and then jump out to steal the brooch.  I was being a
spoil-sport that game, and ruled that the engines had been removed to
cut down on the weight, so that it could be hung from the ceiling.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:25:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Laser Fire

In mail you write:

> Given that laser beams are *very* thin, it would need to be a very short 
> wavelength radar system.

But *weapons grade* lasers are *not* "thin"!

> Also, I seem to recall reading that meteors etc do actually produce
> their own "radio" signal - I cannot remember why or how though.

The plasma sheath created as they rush thru the air.

> Finally, since lasers move at the speed of light, by the time you see
> it it has gone anyway.

You mean like lightning bolts? There's this thing called "persistence
of vision". A bright, momentary line *will* be seen.

> The only really sure place to see a laser beam (Hollyweird not
> included) is from directly in front...  Ouch.

Not true. High power beams actually ionize the air they pass thru. I've
seen photos of the results. It looks like a bad special effect. You get
"globs" of ionized gas of various sizes and shapes scattered randomly
but densely along the beam path. 

And these were beams that while *dangerous* were *not* up to the energy
densities required for weapons. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:32:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipyard rules

In mail you write:

>>Unless I am misunderstanding this construction style, I would
>>have thought it very common for ships built in orbit - build a hull,
>>put an atmosphere inside it, then drag it outside your valuable
>>shipyard space and add all the interior stuff.
>>
>>This is much the way in which Ships are built today, with the ship
>>being launched before all the interior stuff is done.

If you are building in orbit, the lack of gravity makes things quite a
bit different than on the ground or in a body of water. 

You don't *need* the hull to hold things together. You can build out
from the "center" far more easily. Add load bearing members as it is
convenient. And then add the outer hull *last*. This way, items that
will *never* get removed from the ship (such as casings for the M-drive
or the J-drive) won't need to be installed thru "hard patches". 

And modular construction gets easier too. The modules no longer need to
have a "face" that they can be "set down" on while they are waiting to
be put in place. That saves bracing, and puts fewer restrictions on the
shape of the module. 

I expect that even "custom" ships will contain a lot of standard
modules. After all, which is cheaper, allocating a bit more space and
installing a pair of engines that together are somewhat more than you
need? Or having a custom built engine installed? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:46:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mother of Storms - Summary of self sustaining hurricanes - possible spoiler

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>You've reminded me of something I read somewhere. They clathrates are a
>>sort of reddish orange color, and look (and act) rather like an odd
>>sort of ice.
>>
>>As I recall, they are stable at temps somewhat above 4C, which, being
>>the temp at which water is densest, is the temp of just about all deep
>>sea regions.
>>
>>All you need to form the stuff is methane (bacteria in a low oxygen
>>environment such as the sea bottom produce lots of it as they break
>>down organic materials in the bottom "ooze"), water, and moderate
>>pressures (also found on the sea bottom).
>
> That's pretty much summarised in the book but not in as much details. ISTR
> that the clathrates are one of the possible mechanisms to explain the
> losses of ships/planes in the Bermuda Triangle.

I wonder if anyone can dig up info on the phsyical properties of the
clathrates? If they are denser than ice, we may have a new candidate
for use as fuel in the "ignore the weight, I want low volume!" type of
ships. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:37:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Eldritch Horrors of TML (was: Re: reL Delusions of Grandeur)

In mail you write:

> Chris Seamans wrote:
>> 
>> Walter Smith said:
>> 
> <<snip>>
>
>>> The Call of Cthulu character didn't live long enough for it to
>>> matter...apparently it's not good to be the slowest runner in that
>>> game.

> "I don't have to run faster than It, I just have to run faster than
> _you_!"

>> The old copy of Call of Cthulhu I have doesn't even have _rules_ for
>> healing! The assumption was that since the Lovecraftian horrors were
>> so badass it wouldn't even matter... It certainly never mattered for
>> our group.

> Having played CoC, I suspect that characters are expected to heal
> physically during their numerous visits to insane asylums ["asyla"?],
> during their bouts of restful and recuperative thumb-sucking in the
> fetal position, rocking gently back and forth....  ;-)

> ObTrav:  Imagine the sheer joy your players will experience upon
> landing on the homeworld of the MiGo [or other Lovecraftian Horror as
> required].  >;-)

Exploring a world in the Hyades cluster, they find a planet with a
large lake. Possibly with ruins around it (I forget). If there are
ruins, they may find some symbols that translate as "HALI" that
apparently refer to the lake. They are surprised that the database
match for the characters is from ancient *Earth*. 

If they poke around enough, they may find characters that spell out
another name. Said characters will have been covered over or otherwise
defaced. It'll take technical skills to recover them. 

Of course, this won't matter if they tried exploring the lake. Any
moderate disturbance of the lake (say landing the ship on it to
wildreness refuel, as opposed to simply runninf a hose out to it) will
draw the attention of the Inhabitant of the Lake.

If they do recover and translate the name, just remember that He Who Is
No To Be Named usually waits until the third time his name is spoken by
a person. 

Tom: "Hastur? Why does that sound familar?"
     "Dick! Does 'Hastur' mean anything to you?"
Dick: "Nope."
Tom: "Why does that seem so familar? Let's see what the computer thinks..."
      "Ah! 'Hastur...' <GLURK!>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:21:46 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

>Leonard Erickson:
>
>I'd say that info regarding *minor* crimes gets limited distribution.
>How many burglary reports get sent outside the *city* they occur in?
>
Until the present budget troubles of many Canadian forces *everything*
eventually went into the joint US/Canada police databases. However we
didn't *check* it for minor crimes. On a couple of occassions information
on minor crimes in the database came in useful when there were difficulties
with the major crime being investigated. It's quite frightening what's in
that database. And, yes, the first thing almost everyone does when cleared
for access is look up their friends and family. Definitely illegal.

>Leonard again:
>snip<
>He noted that after he got the permit, things changed a bit. Now he
>sees the cop start following, and then the cop generally quits
>following.
>
>He figures that this is because when they run his plates, the concealed
>carry permit comes up, and they decide that they've got better things
>to do than bother somebody that they "know" has a gun. :-)
>
Sounds about right. Police officers are generally obsessed with knowing
what's going on ;^>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:27:55 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Lecture Tour (longish)

Walt Smith wrote
>>>>>>>>>>
[snip description of Doctor Kylor Dukagen]

Great post.  While ships are good, a good NPC will always come in handy.

Have you used Dr. Dukagen in an active adventure?  And did he live through
it?  NPCs in my games had the distressing habit of being the ones thrown in
jail, shot or otherwise put in between the PCs and harms way (which is as
good a use as any, from a pragmatic viewpoint).
I don't have an active campaign right now (as you can see I have plenty of
time to read and reply to posts).

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:18:32 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Status of the AAB circa 1120

I have some Milleu 0 data, and a brief library entry about the AAB around 1120 
(G:T).  What is it's status in the Spinward Marches around this time?  Have 
things changed considerably from its description in Milleu 0?  Or is that 
sufficient information to base my plot around?  Also, does anyone have any 
more "up to date" info?  Thanks
 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:20:56 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: eldritch horror of ... (fluff)

	Five years ago I ran a science fiction game (this adventure last 14 real
months and contained 7 regular players with 16 character deaths, Two
players) that incorperated Call of Cthulu and went into quasa-fantasy, the
players ran into an Art thief who turned out to be much more then a mere
art collector. Eventually the players while investigating monolithic
remains on a rogue planet (planet not orbiting a star) finally learned the
FATE OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE if they failed to stop this well entrenched,
very long lived villian. 
	During one episode, the players while investigating a rumour, found a
planet that was surrounded by rotating warp anomilies. two players collided
with a anomilie and found themselves 50,000 years in the past, in the
middle of another intersteller war. These two players accidentally
contributed to the death of an entire planet because of something they told
the freedom fighters of that era. (Now I was running Two different tech
sci-fi games, same basic story, different times) One player (in the past)
convinced the scientist of that era to set up a research installation to
try to use the warp anomilies as travel conduites, an accident happened
(critical failure) and this player was projected yet another 50,000 years
into the past where he became trapped on a planet populated by the CoC
Elder ones. (Now I have three seperate SciFi games, same players) He then
accidentally created the main villian ('loose lips sink ships' sort of
thing.) 
	Eventually he escaped the planet, went around spreading weapons technology
and was hunted by most of the planets that survived his gifts. He was known
as the angel of death. His actions became the reason the present had so
many planets that contained ruins of civilizations that appeared to have
nuked themselves from existance.

	It was a fun game, since I got to test out some extreme story ideas and
the players had so much to try to unravel, I wrote a 250 page diary they
found, with pictures, discriptions, codes, locations, I even made up a
strange written language for them to decipher. (one player vowed to write a
program to 'break' my language, unfortunalty for him I used several one
word to describe multiple word phrases. Fortunalty for them I had the the
rosetta broken into several locations in the diary.) During one funeral
scene a player actually cried over the death of an NPC. One player had his
mind psionically switched with another NPC. 
"WHAT?! NOOOOOO!!!!! I was so macho! Now I am a woman!" He screamed!
"?!?" the female players turned on him. "My character has a knife, want to
cut your throat now?"
 
	 I will be starting part two (20 years later) of that game, this one will
be using Traveller as it's backdrop. Unfortunalty the original players will
not be in it do to other obligations. Hmm if anyone is interested I can do
it as a EPBM. This ofcourse will be the only time I ask, I do not want to
take up the list space (anymore then I normally do) :> And the turns will
not be sent to the list. 
WARNING: consumption of alcohol may cause you to thay shings like thish.
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #145
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 146



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starships
Re: Laser Fire
side notes
Re: A World Without Death 
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: A World without Death
Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
Re: Alien biology question
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
Re: side notes
Re: Gauss weapons
Looking for players in SYDNEY
Re: Starships
Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/14/99)
Re: Starships
Re: Gauss weapons
>ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  
Re: Laser Fire
Re: Leedor museum scout ship
Re: GT: dispersed hulls 
Re: Starships
Re:T5 Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:46:24 -0700
From: Gordon Horne <ghorne@shaw.wave.ca>
Subject: Re: Starships

>Deckplans already published for GT:
>	Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
>	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
>	Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
>	Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
>	Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
>	Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
>	Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp. 68-71)

I was flipping through the GT material in my FLGS yesterday and i'm certain
i saw plans for the type S Scout in Gurps: Traveller (just before the
Beowulf). I noticed it because they managed to get the three decks into the
hull whereas they don't fit given 'canon' deck heights and 'canon' scout
exterior dimensions. The ship did look thicker in the accompanying beauty
illustration. Also the lower deck was longer and the shape of the upper
deck was changed.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:53:54 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Laser Fire

>
>> Finally, since lasers move at the speed of light, by the time you see
>> it it has gone anyway.
>
>You mean like lightning bolts? There's this thing called "persistence
>of vision". A bright, momentary line *will* be seen.

Isn't that only if the "line" exists long enough to register to the human
eye/mind?

To see a line, wouldn't the room have to be filled with dust or smoke?

I picture a combat laser being much like a larger sized version of one of
those eye or hair removal surgical lasers.  It "pops" and you see the light
only where it terminates.
>
>> The only really sure place to see a laser beam (Hollyweird not
>> included) is from directly in front...  Ouch.
>
>Not true. High power beams actually ionize the air they pass thru. I've
>seen photos of the results. It looks like a bad special effect. You get
>"globs" of ionized gas of various sizes and shapes scattered randomly
>but densely along the beam path.
>
>And these were beams that while *dangerous* were *not* up to the energy
>densities required for weapons.
>
It would be nice if you could share a picture of it with us.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:56:43 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: side notes

<Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):>

Where can I get this CD?
Are there any web pages (or other sources) out there with deck plans of 
spacestations or maps of starports?

With all this discussion about GMing style someone brought up the point 
about the game contract.  There is a good web page that details how to 
make such a contract at http://www.addr.com/~rpghost/play_contract.html
You might want to check out the rest of the web site while you're there.  
It has a play by post section to it that looks pretty good.

There is also a good page describing roleplaying styles at 
http://www-e815.fnal.gov/~jhkim/rpg/styles.html

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:42:42 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death 

> In _The Traveller Adventure_, the characters are likely going to need to
> break in to a museum to recover the howood artifact that is the centerpiece
> of the campaign.  Odds are that even if the characters manage to pull off
> the caper without being caught (museums are designed to keep the items
> inside), I'm willing to bet that they'll leave enough evidence behind that
> a competent TL-12 cop will be able to build a case. 

Just coincidentally, our local museum was broken into two weeks ago and a valuable brooch stolen (this is absolutely true). The existence, location and layout of what is basically a small municipal museum had been broadcast on national TV as a piece of basically tabloid journalism on how the brooch's founder had been "cheated" of his find (using a metal detector illegally in the town park). 

Police have no leads but suspect the local Vargr element.

M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:35:41 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Make sure you don't bend that cable too much, or you're gonna need to splice
>fiber in a very dirty environment.

You can coil a thin strand.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:32:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A World without Death

 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>What is ACQ?


ACQ is probably the next BITS supplement to be published; a combat system
inspired by Azhanti High Lightning and Snapshot, written for T4 by Doug
Berry with James Lindsay. Having read the draft I can say it looks
excellent.

Why probably? Because GURPS Traveller Shipyard's MacOS version may be
released first, depending on the time it takes to get confirmation from SJG
for licencing issues.

ACQ stands for 'At Close Quarters'.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:37:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>BTW, what kind of barbarians would want Guinness in _cans_?

With the widget it tastes better than the bottled version. It tastes like a
draught (albeit not as good as the best draughts).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:16:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
>
> "Solutions are multiple copies of DNA (some radiation resistant
> bacteria do this), addition strands (some redundant?), improved
> repair abilities."
> 
>         In complex organisms, multiple copies of DNA are not
>         always going to help without sophisticated repair
>         mechanisms. Even if there are three undamaged and one
>         damaged gene for (say) hemoglobin, your blood will not
>         function very well if one quarter of the hemoglobin is
>         flawed.

The undamaged ones are used as templates for repairing the damaged one. This
is the great thing about complementary DNA strands...single strand breaks are
realtively simple to repair. DS breaks are harder, but do happen on a regular
basis. Likely what would happen in a organism with many copies of the genome
is that damage would cause that strand to be flagged for degradation, and
another strand created from templates of the good ones, so there's actually
not as much repair as simple replacement.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:22:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Coil it around what?  If you bend even a single conductor too much you're
gonna hose your connection.

- --Clif
>>Make sure you don't bend that cable too much, or you're gonna need to
splice
>>fiber in a very dirty environment.
>
>You can coil a thin strand.
>
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:42:50 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:19:52 -0500, "cjbrain"
<cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Today, if you go out and buy a can  of four of Guinness you will find that
>it is brewed by appointment for HRM the Queen. In Traveller, would this be
>brewed by appointment for the Emperor? I can just see the Black cylinder
>with the ancient symbol of Guinness, and tastefully underneath and to one
>side, a small Imperial Sunburst in gold....

Probably - and lesser nobles (other members of the Imperial
Family, Archdukes, Sector Dukes, and so on) probably make similar
appointments, with correspondingly less prestige, but prestige
nonetheless.  And it's entirely possible that different nobles
will choose different purveyors for the same essential purpose -
thus, the "Purveyor of Fine Vilani SHaashliik to His Imperial
Majesty" may not be the PoFVSH to _Her_ Imperial Majesty (the
Emperor's wife).  She may even find His purveyor's stuff to be
totally nauseating; she has her own taste.

The only thing that you can be sure of is that a selected
purveyor will be from the region over which the appointing noble
has direct control.  Thus, no Antarean operation will ever be the
Purveyor of ... to His Grace the Archduke of the Domain of
Deneb"; that honor will go to a Domain of Deneb operation, even
if that operation must work with the Antarean guys to get that
special blend of Githiaskio alg-tea.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:58:52 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: side notes

At 01:56 PM 14/02/99 PST, you wrote:
><Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):>
>
>Where can I get this CD?
>Are there any web pages (or other sources) out there with deck plans of 
>spacestations or maps of starports?
>

        Hi, Cliff...  I will have the deckplans for a 5000dton HG "Starship
Service Platform" TL9 up on my website in a week or so...  the Worksheet and
SDP are up, and I am just doing the plans now.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:02:38 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

At 08:22 pm 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Coil it around what?  If you bend even a single conductor too much
you're
>gonna hose your connection.
>
>--Clif

Um ...
	- coil it loosely in your hand, much as the installers do
	- coil it on the roll it comes in
	- coil it on a special case that comes with the weapon
	- coil it around your helmet

In short, coil it just about any freaking way you like, as long as
you don't bend it beyond the critical point. And if it's a weapon
system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.

>>>Make sure you don't bend that cable too much, or you're gonna need
to
>splice
>>>fiber in a very dirty environment.
>>
>>You can coil a thin strand.

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:11:52 EST
From: "Andrew Long" <andrewlong@hotmail.com>
Subject: Looking for players in SYDNEY

I'm new in Sydney and am looking for a group to play Traveller with. 
I've been out of the country for several years and have not had an 
opportunity to play for quite some time.

If there are any groups listening in who might like to take on a new 
player, I'd like to hear from them (off-list, I suggest)

Regards, Andy

- -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long		andrewlong@hotmail.com
1/49 Osborne Rd		andy.long@fujitsu.com.au
Manly			+61 (414) 074 833 (Mobile)
NSW 2095 		+61 (2) 9977 1460 (Res)
Australia		+61 (2) 9887 9247 (Office)
			+61 (2) 9887 9212 (Office Fax)
- -------------------------------------------------------






______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:35:20 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starships

What I would like to see are :-

Patrol Ship (Lurushaar Kilaalum Class)
Patrol Cruiser (Darrian Barkdoldin Class)
Yacht (Lady of Shallot Class)
MK Transport (Al Morai World Class)
RT Long-Liner (Tukera proprietary passanger liner)
CT Cargo Carrier (used by Oberlindes Lines)
Fleet Escort (Sloan Class)
TI Frontier Transport (Imperiallines)

A low tech merchant
A Space Station

Hope this helps,

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:24:58 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/14/99)

  This is probably a collectibel that someone here is looking for:

>GDW:
>    (Traveller)
>        The Traveller Book (hardbound) (201) [$28, VF]

  http://www.titangames.com/            koziol@titangames.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:43:32 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starships

Christopher B. Thrash wrote:

> Deckplans already published for GT:
>         Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
>         Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
>         Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
>         Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
>         Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
>         Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
>         Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp. 68-71)

You forgot the Scout Courior on page 132 of GT

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:22:15 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 08:22 pm 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Coil it around what?  If you bend even a single conductor too much
> you're
> >gonna hose your connection.
> >
> >--Clif
> 
> Um ...
>         - coil it loosely in your hand, much as the installers do
>         - coil it on the roll it comes in
>         - coil it on a special case that comes with the weapon
>         - coil it around your helmet
> 
> In short, coil it just about any freaking way you like, as long as
> you don't bend it beyond the critical point. And if it's a weapon
> system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
> semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
> One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
> vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
> morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.

Thats what they call Squadie proffing. A mate of mine is working on a
battlefield computer system and they had to Squadie proof it. Take one
standard labtop, encase it in 4" of steel reinforced rubber with a anti shock
system, redesign the display for weather proofing, touch screen with gloves
etc etc etc. You could take this labtop and throw it out of a two toner at 20
miles an hour and it would still be in working.

Any weapon system, or equipment that isn't squadie proofed just isn't going to
be deployed in the field. It wouldn't survive loading, let alone battle if it
was not.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:18:32 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  

>ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  If so, you
>could end up with a serious infinite regress....

I think there would be a strong market for VR-based systems ala _Dream
Park.  Computer-based RPGs would probably be standard on ships to combat
boredom.
- - --
How about a quick round of Better Than LifeTM  ? Anyone?

Oh well, don't come lookin' for me next time you want to go play Soap Sud
Slalom ....



"Being attacked in the House by him is like being savaged by a dead sheep."
Denis Healy, British politician, referring to the attack by Sir Geoffrey
Howe upon his budget proposals, in the Listener.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:24:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Laser Fire

In mail you write:

>>> Finally, since lasers move at the speed of light, by the time you see
>>> it it has gone anyway.
>>
>>You mean like lightning bolts? There's this thing called "persistence
>>of vision". A bright, momentary line *will* be seen.
>
> Isn't that only if the "line" exists long enough to register to the human
> eye/mind?

Nope, if the total energy is high enough to trigger the rods or cones
in your eyes, you can "see" even nano-second light pulses. Lightning
bolts don't last more than milliseconds. And they travel at close to
lightspeed. 

> To see a line, wouldn't the room have to be filled with dust or smoke?

Again, no. The "tiny" portion of the energy that the air absorbs is
enough to ionize it. And when the ionized atoms return to their "ground
state" microseconds later, they give off light. 

> I picture a combat laser being much like a larger sized version of one of
> those eye or hair removal surgical lasers.  It "pops" and you see the light
> only where it terminates.

The air absorbs a tiny amount of the energy. At above something along
the lines of a MW per square cm, the air gets ionized.

>>> The only really sure place to see a laser beam (Hollyweird not
>>> included) is from directly in front...  Ouch.
>>
>>Not true. High power beams actually ionize the air they pass thru. I've
>>seen photos of the results. It looks like a bad special effect. You get
>>"globs" of ionized gas of various sizes and shapes scattered randomly
>>but densely along the beam path.
>>
>>And these were beams that while *dangerous* were *not* up to the energy
>>densities required for weapons.
>>
> It would be nice if you could share a picture of it with us.

If the magazine in question wasn't in storage, I'd see about scanning
it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:31:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Leedor museum scout ship

In mail you write:

>> I've heard dark, giggling rumors about how a certain enactment of the
>> _Traveller Adventure_ saw the PCs steal the Scout/Courier in the museum
>> and use it for their getaway.  I wasn't there at the time, but perhaps
>> someone who was could explicate further?
>
> I wasn't in that one, but I've had players hide in the landing-gear
> wells until night and then jump out to steal the brooch.  I was being a
> spoil-sport that game, and ruled that the engines had been removed to
> cut down on the weight, so that it could be hung from the ceiling.

Removing the engines damages the exhibit. But there *no* way there's
going to be *any* LH2 in the tanks. So they may be able to power the
ship up from internal battery backups (which could be kept charged to
provide lighting and power for the times when they run tours of the
ship. 

Even better, there's probably a module installed in the computer "bay"
that reports *as if* the ship was flight ready and turns it into a
*big* simulator. 

Just imagine the characters reaction. They've scrambled into the ship,
closed the hatch, and mad an "emergency liftoff". They are heading out
for the jump point when the buzzer for the airlock sounds. They check
the camera for the lock and it shows a bunch of police standing there,
with the interior of the museum behind them.

"You might as well come out. It's running a simulation, and there's no
 fuel in the tanks anyway."

Talk about *embarassing*!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:02:40 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: dispersed hulls 

> > The difficulty is, this rule can't simply be applied directly to the
armor
> > weight and cost. Open frame armor cannot be sealed, and so all the
> > habitable parts of such a ship would have to be armored separately,
under
> > the component armor option (VE2, p. 27) -- this involves broadening the
> > existing rule on sealed hulls (p. 24) to components, but I don't think
this
> > is unreasonable. 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand that - the open frame armor rule directly
affects 
> armor weight and cost, nothing else. Are you considering to apply the
open 
> frame armor multiplier to the cost of a sealed body? 
> 

VE2 p. 24 says that either a hull is sealed in its entirety or it is not.
Having an open frame hull with individually sealed subcomponents is an
extension of the existing rule.

> Have you considered to purchase all sealed compartments as pods? You
would 
> need still need rules adaptions, but taking pods and not component armor 
> would allow you to take a different strength or quality for the
pressurized
> areas.
> 

Yes, of course. Thing I was trying to avoid for GT players without access
to or interest in VE2 was the surface area calculation (SA = 6*vol^2/3) for
each separate compartment or pod. I'm not sure I want to raise the issue of
pods, however -- that has implications for access space that I don't want
to get into.

> I'd rather see a system that takes the number and individual volume of
the 
> pressurized sections into account. Buy each section as a separate hull
and 
> add some connecting framework at a discount? That would allow a higher DR
for
> individual sections, too.
> 

That is the correct and most accurate way to do this, of course. But once
again, it gets into detailed calculations of surface area. I suppose I may
not be able to avoid this in the end.

> > "Open frame armor protects normally against collisions, but provides
only a
> > 2-in-6 chance of protecting against contact missiles and no protection
at
> > all against beam weapons or explosions."
>  
> What about projectiles? 
> 

Same as missiles, but since they aren't particularly useful in GT space
combat I elected to ignore them.

> Shouldn't there be 2-in-6 protection against beams to stay VE-compatible?
> 

By a strict application of the rules, yes, but that rule presumes that the
beam diameter is much less than the diameter of an average strut. At the
ranges involved in GT space combat, this is not the case -- the beam is at
least several meters across, and enough would fall through the hull to do
(almost) normal damage.

Strictly speaking, I suppose the rule for beam weapons should be "Use only
1/3 the listed DR against beam weapons that strike the open frame section."
but that begs the question of hits on the sealed compartments vs. on the
open frame. That could be done, using the percent open frame calculated
earlier and the table on p. B45, but again I was looking for playable
simplicity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:21:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

- ---"Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com> wrote:

> 400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
> 
> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 

I could live with that.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:04:25 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re:T5 Questions

Hi-
  Can someone refresh my memory- what era is Marc planning for T5 and what
sectors will be the focus?
Thanks-
J.LaRosee

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #146
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 147



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Starships
re: Gauss Weapons
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Re: Pacing (was re: A World Without Death)
re: Starships
Re: Starships
Re: Starhips
Re: Starships
Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship
Re: Proving my point
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
Re: Starhips
Re: Laser fire
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Turn 3 Synopsis
Re: GT Adventures
GURPS: Jonkeereen
Traveller CD
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Coolness Under Fire

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:43:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons


>At 08:22 pm 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Coil it around what?  If you bend even a single conductor too much
>you're
>>gonna hose your connection.
>>
>>--Clif
>
>Um ...
> - coil it loosely in your hand, much as the installers do
> - coil it on the roll it comes in
> - coil it on a special case that comes with the weapon
> - coil it around your helmet
>
>In short, coil it just about any freaking way you like, as long as
>you don't bend it beyond the critical point.

Isn't that what I said?  "Don't bend it too much"?  If your bend radius is
under 8", you're risking it.

>And if it's a weapon
>system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
>semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
>One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
>vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
>morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.

Oh, like the M2 Bradley doesn't have its design flaws.  Like the Patriot
missile was as efficient as it was hailed to be.  I don't assume anything
when it comes to military contracts.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:53:09 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 06:21 15-2-99 -0800, Terry wrote:
>> 400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
>> 
>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 
>
>I could live with that.
>
>Terry

Sounds really good to me.


James

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:58:50 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Gauss Weapons

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
>vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
>morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.

Oh, like the M2 Bradley doesn't have its design flaws.  Like the Patriot
missile was as efficient as it was hailed to be.  I don't assume anything
when it comes to military contracts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>.
A lot of this will depend on how long (and how much) the military in
question has been using the equipment.

If the military has been running fibre-optic cable from tactical positions to
remote weapons for decades, they will know all about what they can
and can't do with it, and will have developed handling tricks the
manufacturer doesn't know about. Second, third and fourth generation
gear will take advantage of things learned from earlier equipment, at least
with regard to this particular component. (M-16's became notorius for
jammed mechanisms, the gunpowder in the bullets worked fine - guess 
which component was a newer design?) If this is the first time they are
using the technique in combat, it will fail frequently - this is normal.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:00:57 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Current vote:

Large passenger liner (7)

Patrol Ship/Frigate/Corvette (6)

Large freighter (5)
Destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (5)
Space station or small highport w/modular components (5)
Yacht (5) 

SDB/Monitor (4)

Old/low-tech merchant ship (3)
Medium freighter (1000 dTon range) (3)
Dreadnaught (3)

Trader/Corsair (400 dton) (1)
	Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava-class, perhaps J3) (2)
	400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
	400td Corsair (as opposed to the Vargr Corsair) (2)

Cruiser (around 20 ktons) (2)
Carrier w/ fighters (2)
Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (2)
IISS survey cruiser (2)
Medium exploration ship (1000-2000 dTons) (2)
Non-Imperial warship (2)
Ancients' military ship (2)
Ship tender/Jump ship (from Fighting Ships) (2)


Deckplans already published for GT:
	Suleiman-class Scout/Courier (GT, p. 131) [thanks, Gordon and Ewan]
	Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
	Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
	Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
	Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
	Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
	Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp. 68-71)
	

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:17:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 03:46 PM 2/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>>>you would like to see GT Starships deal with.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
>1) A big liner (the "Intersteller Queen")
>2) A bulk freighter (the "Nostromo")

The Nostromo was a 'Commercial Towing Vessal' like a jump ship according to
the movies.  At least that is what called it in the dialog.  That's one
reason I'd like to see some GT rules for the Jump ship and its' harness gear.


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:17:22 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Pacing (was re: A World Without Death)

>Semi-off topic section follows:
>
>I especially used such cliffhangers in my Justice, Inc. campaign - since
>it was pulp adventures, it seemed especially appropriate. Some memorable
>times we rolled end-of-session credits:
>
>1) While the heroes' crippled seaplane fell towards the ocean below, 
>a mysterious hostile fighterplane in pursuit.

Good one.

>2) As a giant monster, accumulated from the corpses of those washed
>away by a killer flood, reared out of the river before the heroes' horrified
>eyes.

Gross!  CoC Ammo!

>3) As a sedan driven by Boss Murdock's thugs pushed the heroes' car
>into the path of an oncoming train.
>4) As an evil chinese warlord pulled a lever, dumping those before his
>throne down a seemingly bottomless pit. (Yes, the players stood there
>in front of the throne and confronted the villain. The looks on their faces
>when he pulled the most cliche stunt in cliche villaindom - and succeeded
>at it - was something I shall long treasure. It was the moment they totally
>realized that they were in the PULPS!! <G>  )
>

Very cliche, and boy did they deserve it.  'NEVER chase a cobra into its'
burrow!'  Rici Tici Tavi

>Walt Smith

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:18:21 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starships

The reason I think a small patrol ship would be best for inclusion, even if
it isn't the one from CT Book 3:

If the PC's in their Far Trader are going to get nabbed by the authorities,
this power level of ship is likely to do it. I'm sure the PC's will want to
know where the brig is - and where it is in relation to the bridge. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:30:01 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 10:53 AM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:21 15-2-99 -0800, Terry wrote:
>>> 400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
>>> 
>>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
>>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
>>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 
>>
>>I could live with that.
>>
>>Terry
>
>Sounds really good to me.
>
>

Me too.  Great idea, but perhaps it could be expanded.  What about another
mod or two and say that the ship was designed to have one modules for
various jobs.  Say as a passenger liner/troop ship, bulk carrier,
Qship/corsair, mercenary transport/mixed cargo/passenger.

I would like to see a set of rules for the towing gear of the Jump ship and
Battle rider carriers though.  It is one design feature that has never been
explained in any form of cannon.  The mass/volume/power of the gear for a
given mass/volume/power requirements of cargo.  Plus a few 'cargo mudules'
for bulk carriers/battler carriers like troop transporters and low birth
colony mass transport.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:53:08 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starhips

Someone else mentioned that the Levithan(sp)? class would be another 
great inclusion in GT: Starships...and I'll second that! :)

Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:09:56 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starships

Walter Smith wrote:

> If the PC's in their Far Trader are going to get nabbed by the authorities,
> this power level of ship is likely to do it. I'm sure the PC's will want to
> know where the brig is - and where it is in relation to the bridge. <G>

Should that not be <WEG> ?

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:15:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guinness and Imperial Sponsorship

Black ICE wrote:

> BTW, what kind of barbarians would want Guinness in _cans_?

Actually, this sentence would make perfect sense if you left off
the last two words. :^) :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:22:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

Clif <brclif@digital.net> writes:
> 
> >Clif will probably make some condescending or qualifying response.  It 
> >won't make much difference, I think most of you understand my point.
> >
> Not one to disappoint... "Oh 'god' of all GM 'gods', mold me as clay."  : P

DON'T DO IT, CLAY!!  You'll just have wash your hands afterwards! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > I believe that "decimation" originated with the Roman legions.

    Of course it originated with the Romans! Who else would _need_
    a word that means "kill every tenth person"?  - Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:28:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Clif wrote:

> Oh, like the M2 Bradley doesn't have its design flaws.  Like the Patriot
> missile was as efficient as it was hailed to be. 

The Patriot system is an Anti-aircraft missile system JOT'ed into
anti-missile duty. This was known when they did it. There were some VERY
big political reasons that the Patriot had to _appear_ to work really
well during the Gulf conflict.

We're just _very_ lucky that Saddam's rocket scientists weren't. OTOH,
so is he...the biggest political reason was to keep Israel out of the
war.  Had they entered the situation could well have escalated to
include lots of sand being made into glass.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:38:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

cjbrain wrote:
> 
> >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?  If so, you
> >could end up with a serious infinite regress....
> 
> I think there would be a strong market for VR-based systems ala _Dream
> Park.  Computer-based RPGs would probably be standard on ships to combat
> boredom.

Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
people playing one in my MT Refs guide!


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:57:20 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starhips

At 08:53 AM 2/15/99 PST, you wrote:
>Someone else mentioned that the Levithan(sp)? class would be another 
>great inclusion in GT: Starships...and I'll second that! :)
>
>Mike
>
>

It would be a good choice as well.  Very interesting ship with a great many
paculiarities like redundant drives and an asteroind hull.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:57:29 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Laser fire

>Not true. High power beams actually ionize the air they pass thru. I've
>seen photos of the results. It looks like a bad special effect. You get
>"globs" of ionized gas of various sizes and shapes scattered randomly
>but densely along the beam path.
>
>And these were beams that while *dangerous* were *not* up to the energy
>densities required for weapons.

The beams you saw ionizing the air probably were at higher power
densities than Traveller weapons, in that they would have very short
pulses. A weapons laser really, really, really doesn't want to 
ionize the air; it degrades the beam quality quite a lot. Traveller
weapons lasers at the listed energies with reasonable pulses won't
necessarily exceed the ionization threshold (especially if lasers used
in atmosphere have longer pulses than space-combat lasers.)

Even a beam that doesn't ionize the air is generally fairly visible,
though. The 20-W laser we shoot up into the sky for laser guided
astronomical adaptive optics is visible from about a mile away (at
night, anyway) from scatter off of normal air. Persistence of vision
will cause the pulsed Traveller lasers to be similarly visible even
if they don't ionize anything.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:19:05 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 16:30 15-2-99 +0000, Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
>>>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
>>>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 
>>>
>>>I could live with that.
>>>
>>>Terry
>>
>>Sounds really good to me.
>>
>>
>
>Me too.  Great idea, but perhaps it could be expanded.  What about another
>mod or two and say that the ship was designed to have one modules for
>various jobs.  Say as a passenger liner/troop ship, bulk carrier,
>Qship/corsair, mercenary transport/mixed cargo/passenger.

But would it have been *designed* and built with Q-ship or corsair modules?
 Or, as I think much more likely, would someone be taking an existing ship
and converting it?  I find it difficult to imagine someone's walking into a
building yard and saying, "Yes, I'd like to order a corsair...."


James

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:21:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

- ---Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> >>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
> >>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
> >>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 
> >>
> 
> Me too.  Great idea, but perhaps it could be expanded.  What about 
> another mod or two and say that the ship was designed to have one 
> modules for various jobs.  Say as a passenger liner/troop ship, 
> bulk carrier, Qship/corsair, mercenary transport/mixed 
> cargo/passenger.

That would also be interesting.
 
Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:26:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Turn 3 Synopsis

"By your DEmand" (Cylon voice) I have put the next turn to the
aforementioned PBEM on the web.

Father Mark Stratford is properly introduced to the strange threesome who
ushered him out of his home and set it on fire.  He partially learns what
might be in his future.

http://ddi.digital.net/~brclif/turn_3russ.htm

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:50:41 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

	I also noticed that the entry for the world Tarsus contained
information that was revealed in Tarsus Boxed Set.  It could act as a
potential spoiler if a player read the BtC entry then played in a game based
on the Boxed Set.

>GT:BtC hints at the effects of some of the past adventures, such as
Research
>Station Gamma.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:51:09 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: GURPS: Jonkeereen

Jonkeereen

Intelligent sub-species of humaniti, currently native to Jonkeer
(Vincennes/Deneb 1324). The Jonkeereen are the products of extensive geneering
by the Imperial Ministry of Colonisation . The project's goal was the creation
of a human subspecies perfectly suited to life in a hostile desert
environment. Begun five centuries ago, the project has proven successful. Over
400 million enhanced humans inhabit Jonkeer, and millions more live on desert
planets throughout the Domain of Deneb and beyond.

The average Jonkeereen is tall, thin, and dark-skinned, much like human
desert-dwellers throughout space. Thorough modifications have moved the
Jonkeereen far from the human norm. A combination of genetic engineering and
adaptive surgery aided the first Jonkeereen; later generations bred true to
the Ministry 's specifications.

The Jonkeereen's adaptations are many. Protective membranes shield his eyes
and ears from windblown sand. Changes to his metabolism allow survival on the
scant resources of arid plains. A highly efficient perspiration system and a
large body surface work to cool him in temperatures often exceeding 50 degrees
C - far above human tolerance. His dark complexion shields him from the
radiation of Jonkeer 's lurid red sun.

While the Jonkeereen have changed in form, their culture also changed. Their
lifestyle is austere, and many visitors find the local customs harsh. Both
conservatism and cooperation are basic traits of the Jonkeereen mindset. The
Jonkeereen are no longer fully human, and this makes the typical Jonkeereen
aloof, emotionally distant from their cousins.

The local Scout base is engaged in long-term observation of Jonkeer culture
and its departure from human standards.

(The information above is from Hyphen's web site.)

Jonkeereen: 25 points
HT+2, Height +6, Weight -20#
Nictiating Membrane, Temperature Tolerance +6 (30-145F)
Chauvinistic, Chummy, Hidebound

Note that Jonkeereen do not depart drastically from human norms.  I think
Jonkeereen can be played as something between subsaharan Arficans and the
Fremen of Dune.  IMTU, the Jonkeereen have converted to Islam, and are waiting
for a leader to unite them...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:56:57 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: Traveller CD

	Ok, I'll bite.  Is there still an easy way to acquire the Traveller
CD that has the deckplans and other stuff on it?

		Alan Hatcher

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:59:03 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 01:19 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 16:30 15-2-99 +0000, Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
>>>>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
>>>>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 
>>>>
>>>>I could live with that.
>>>>
>>>>Terry
>>>
>>>Sounds really good to me.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Me too.  Great idea, but perhaps it could be expanded.  What about another
>>mod or two and say that the ship was designed to have one modules for
>>various jobs.  Say as a passenger liner/troop ship, bulk carrier,
>>Qship/corsair, mercenary transport/mixed cargo/passenger.
>
>But would it have been *designed* and built with Q-ship or corsair modules?
> Or, as I think much more likely, would someone be taking an existing ship
>and converting it?  I find it difficult to imagine someone's walking into a
>building yard and saying, "Yes, I'd like to order a corsair...."
>

Corsair is such an ugly word...How about a kinder gentler term, like armed
merchant, Qship, securety transport, commerce protection and patrol craft,
Trade route patrol craft, Customs inspection ship,...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:57:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships

John Buston wrote:
> 
> Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):
>

Snip of huge list

You SURE these are on the HWIG CD???

Where?

(I have to dig around on mine...then it might be an old edition, too, I
think it was in the first bunch that Bryan sent out...)
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:01:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Coolness Under Fire

I have questions about any kind of Firearm Combat skill...

Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

"Shoot first and ask questions, later."

- --or--

"Confirm your target and then shoot."

The first philosophy could needlessly end the lives of friendlies; the
second philosophy could get you killed if you meet troops who believe in the
first philosophy.

Also, in T:2000 there was a stat called coolness under fire.

Could the height of your skill level in a combat firearms skills ALSO
determine how cool you were in a firefight?

Like Gene Hackman or Clint Eastwood in "Unforgiven", who both seemed to be
posterboys for their truism that it isn't so much being quick on the draw,
but being cool enough to point where you want the bullet to go.

Their coolness under fire was proportional to their skill with their
weapons.

Also, I'm wondering, if a GM used skill level to determine how cool a
character was flying a jet or shooting a weapon, should you assign modifiers
based on the most superior weapon being employed by the enemy?

For example:  (Highest being most nerve-wracking)

Close Range/Indoors:

Grenade
Machinegun
SMG
Rifle, Shotgun
Pistol

Long Range/Outdoors:

Grenade
Machinegun
Rifle
SMG
Shotgun
Pistol

There would be a modifier equal to the number of levels up or down to the
opposing weapon.

This would represent the suppressive fire put out by the superior weapon.  A
suppressed character would only be able to seek and cower behind cover and
"spray and pray".

I know I don't have to ask for criticism.

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #147
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 148



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Jonkeereen
Deckplans for GURPS and all
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Top 10 GT Starships
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: GT Adventures
Re: >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
Re: Coolness Under Fire
GT : Antiama Class Fighter Carrier - 101st BatRon
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Leviathan (was: Starhips)
Re: Alien biology question
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Leviathan (was: Starhips)
Re: Starships
[none]
DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...
Re: More T5 Questions
Re: Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:02:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Jonkeereen

IMTU, the Jonkeereen have converted to Islam, and are waiting
>for a leader to unite them...
>
>
Enter the PC.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:35:25 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Deckplans for GURPS and all

>At 06:21 15-2-99 -0800, Terry wrote:
>>> 400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
>>> 
>>> Would a J2-J3 tramp freighter, 400 dtons, with a conversion 
>>> to the Corsair, make people happy? You could go with one
>>> set of deckplans, and show the alterations side by side. 

This would be especially cool as, in my opinion, not a lot of shipyards
build vessels knowing damned well that they're designed as pirates.  (Aside
from Famille Spofulam, and they went out of business and drifted off into
the core in ~year200 3.I.)

But it's gotta have those clamshells!  (In other words, I want my MT Corsair
and am willing to whine about it to see it done!)


Thanks in advance,

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

My Traveller Geek Code:
tc+ tm++ tn-- t4- tg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:33:11 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Clif wrote:

[snip]

>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>
>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>
>--or--
>
>"Confirm your target and then shoot."


As it is asked, this question is a bit unclear. Do the people who shoot
first shoot accurately, or do they just shoot faster? How fast are those
that confirm their targets, and do *they* shoot accurately? Because of
questions like this, you cannot say which of the above represent a higher
skill level. However, if you rephrase it:

"Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

"'Shoot fast'

"--or--

"Shoot accurately'"

Then it is obviously the latter. As they say, you can't miss fast enough.

The higher skill level, IMO, shoots both faster *and* more accurately than
the lower skill level.


[snip]

>For example:  (Highest being most nerve-wracking)


IMO, the difficulty with this (in game terms) is quantitatively defining
what is "scarier." Is it really less nerve-wracking to be fired upon by a
pistol than a machine gun, assuming you are in a situation where either can
hit you and end your life?

I'd just fudge it, without coming up with hierarchical lists. Of course, YMMV.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:48:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

>Clif wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>>
>>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>>
>>--or--
>>
>>"Confirm your target and then shoot."
>
>
>As it is asked, this question is a bit unclear. Do the people who shoot
>first shoot accurately, or do they just shoot faster? How fast are those
>that confirm their targets, and do *they* shoot accurately? Because of
>questions like this, you cannot say which of the above represent a higher
>skill level. However, if you rephrase it:


Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
war zone.

Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:52:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Top 10 GT Starships

In a message dated 2/13/99 11:28:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
nimrod@santech.com writes:

<< The only version of the deckplans I ever saw was in FASA's Adventure Class
 Ships Vol. II.
 The plans were for the Lurushaar Kilaalum Type T Patrol Cruiser.  This was
 put together by the Keith brothers John Harshman and a few others whose
 names fall back in the mists of Traveller antiquity, so as far as I am
 concerned it was official. >>

does anybody have a copy of these deck plans?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:00:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Coil it around what?  If you bend even a single conductor too much you're
>gonna hose your connection.

Let me be more explict - a thin strand of fibre is reasonably flexible, a
point I was trying to make by observing that you can coil the fibre optic.
You wouldn't need that big a fibre to transmit data to and from a remote
weapon.

>Isn't that what I said?  "Don't bend it too much"?  If your bend radius is
>under 8", you're risking it.
>
>>And if it's a weapon
>>system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
>>semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
>>One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
>>vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
>>morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.
>
>Oh, like the M2 Bradley doesn't have its design flaws.  Like the Patriot
>missile was as efficient as it was hailed to be.  I don't assume anything
>when it comes to military contracts.

But if it's a reasonably mature technology like say, fibre optics being
used for communications, they may well have thought about this. I mean, the
telcos in the US and UK have been using this stuff for quite a while now.
Remember this stuff is being manhandled in the field by navvies who don't
treat it with kid gloves.

When you look at a 50m run for a remote shot it probably doesn't need a
tight bend radius anyway.

From an engineering sense, there is a world of difference between a small,
mechanically simple device like a fibre optic cable and something like an
M2. However, with contracts if you have a lousy specification you'll get
what you asked for. Most of the effort in project management of engineering
is getting the specs right, with a good plan and filing system the rest
will follow.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:06:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT Adventures

"J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com> wrote:

>	I also noticed that the entry for the world Tarsus contained
>information that was revealed in Tarsus Boxed Set.  It could act as a
>potential spoiler if a player read the BtC entry then played in a game based
>on the Boxed Set.
>
>>GT:BtC hints at the effects of some of the past adventures, such as
>Research
>>Station Gamma.

Well, GT is set in 1120, and the canon universe was identical until 1116
when Dulinor got blown up by **^)^&_FNORD&(*&)@, so Tarsus and the CT
modules happened as written.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:13:44 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: >ObTrav:  Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

In a message dated 2/15/99 12:44:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
 people playing one in my MT Refs guide!
 
  >>
They also do computer-moderated ones, IIRC, that's what the PC's are doing in
the beginning of the double adventure "Horde"

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:15:43 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Freeze and Hold.....
Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire


>
>
>>Clif wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>>>
>>>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>>>
>>>--or--
>>>
>>>"Confirm your target and then shoot."
>>
>>
>>As it is asked, this question is a bit unclear. Do the people who shoot
>>first shoot accurately, or do they just shoot faster? How fast are those
>>that confirm their targets, and do *they* shoot accurately? Because of
>>questions like this, you cannot say which of the above represent a higher
>>skill level. However, if you rephrase it:
>
>
>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
>war zone.
>
>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>
>--Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:21:16 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Antiama Class Fighter Carrier - 101st BatRon

100000ton Antiama class Fleet Carrier, Tech Level 12

Crew:
 2 x Command, 3 x Helm, 3 x Navigation, 18 x Commo/Sensor, 6 x Screens,
 135 x Engineering, 456 x Gunnery, 5 x Stewards, 21 x Medical,
 3 x Computer, 400 x Flight
 Total Crew = 1052

Specifications:
 100000ton Unstreamlined Hull, Heavy Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Heavy Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials, Advanced
 Metal Armor, DR 5000, PD 4, +14 size mod, 49158.3484 MCr, 2442975 HP,
 Turrets 1200 HP, Bays 9750 HP, Radical Stealth, Radical Emissions
 Cloaking, 3 Hardened Command Bridge, 2 Engineering, 200 Utility,
 8302 Maneuver, 5000 Powered Jump, 40000 Jump Fuel (10000 for Jump 1),
 50 Fuel Processor (100 hrs to process), 600 Staterooms (580 Crew,
 20 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 25 Low Berth (100 capacity,
 0 Low Passage), 20 Sickbay, 256 Nuclear Damper (45 miles), 7271 Meson
 Screen (DR 100003), 1600 Cargo, 41 Power Plant (1640 MW output, 8 MW
 excess), 60 Unpowered ContraGrav (480000 tons CG lift, 960 MW),
 2 TL 12  AESA scan 50 (15 spaces, 0 MW), 2 TL 12 PESA scan 50 (15
 spaces, 0 MW), 2 TL 12 Radscanner scan 45 (9 spaces, 0 MW), 3 EW
 Suite (DJ 16, AJ 16, 1 BE) (1.5 spaces, 0 MW), 20 Brigs, 50 Complete
 Workshops, 20000 sq ft Conference Hall(s), 1 Pool (Full), 3 x 50 tons
 capacity Space Dock (50std Cutter or smaller), 300 x 50 tons capacity
 Space Dock (50std Heavy Fighter or smaller), 320 turrets, 68 bays -
 160 Triple 405Mj Laser Turrets, 160 Triple Sandcaster Turrets,
 60 Missile Bays, 4 PAW-7 Bays (17640MJ, 336 MW), 4 Meson Gun-7 Bays
 (17640MJ, 336 MW)

Performance:
 Jump 4, EMass 359908.92 tons, LMass 413358.92 tons (Estimated carried
 craft mass = 45450 tons), EMass 307908.92 tons (less fuel), LMass
 361358.92 tons (less fuel), Air Speed 0 mph, Acceleration - 2.31G
 Empty, 2.01G Loaded, 2.7G Empty (less Fuel), 2.3G Loaded (less Fuel)

Weapon Stats:
 PAW-7 Bay, 17640MJ : 17500 (28158 km) 1/2 range, 44100 (70957 km)
           max range, 6d x 2100 damage
 Meson Gun-7 Bay, 17640MJ : 16800 (27031 km) 1/2 range, 42700
           (68704 km) max range, 6d x 1750(!) damage


Notes:

 Design Stats for Active Sensor Module:
 TL 12  AESA (in pop turret): 64.34 tons, 7.5 spaces, 39.49565 MCr
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Passive Sensor Module:
 TL 12 PESA (in pop turret): 75.71 tons, 7.5 spaces, 120.27045 MCr
 Scan 50 in space, 3000000 miles (4827000 km)

 Design Stats for Radscanner Module:
 TL 12 Radscanner: 56.25 tons, 4.5 spaces, 22.525 MCr
 Scan 45 , 450000 miles (724050 km)

 Design Stats for EW Suite Module:
 Deceptive Jammer 16, Area Jammer 16, 1 Blip Enhancer
 1.535 tons, 0.5 spaces, 1.236 MCr

 Design Stats for Complete Workshop:
 3 spaces, 15 tons, 0.06 MCr

 Design Stats for Unpowered Contragravity Module:
 1 space, 4 tons, 0.8 MCr, 16 MW, 8000 tons lift


Also known in naval circles as the mother ship, the fleet carrier is
a transport and launch facility for heavy fighters.  Its main purpose
is the carriage of FHs across interstellar distances to the site of
battle.  In peace, the fleet carrier is a mobile port and repair
facility for its brood; in war, it is a formidable fleet element to
be respected.

Defenses: The fleet carrier depends on its phalanx of three hundred
fighters for the majority of its protection.  Typically, one third of
the fighter force is in flight at any one time.  In addition,
however, the ship can defend itself with its extensive armament -
especially its missile salvos.  In practice, the fleet carrier's low
armour rating and speed make it vulnerable and clumsy in battle, and
it will join combat only to ensure recovery of its brood.

Ground Support: The ship's meson guns and particle accelerators can
be used against ground targets, as can its missile racks and laser
batteries.  Generally this type of ground support occurs only in the
final stages of a battle, when things are being mopped up.  Doctrine
would preclude risking the ship early in a battle when there is
potential disaster of surface-based return fire.

Evolution: The fleet carrier is an example of the continuing
evolution of starship functions.  In this case, it represents a
splitting off of the fighter carrier operations of older battleships,
placing the responsibilities all in a single ship designed for the
purpose.  Where once a large dreadnaught would carry regiments of
troops, phalanxes of fighters, and myriad weapons mounts, current
practice is to split these various tasks into individual ships.
Naval doctrine is to carry troops on troop transports, fighters on
fighter carriers, and large weapons for the line of battle on
battleships.

Class Names: The Antiama class fleet carriers are named for empresses
and consorts from Imperial history.

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:24:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Clif wrote:
> 

> Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
> its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
> war zone.
> 
> Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

In this case either mode is more of a tactical decision, and have little
to do with the skill level of the shooter. It is a question of using
supressive or aimed fire; both are valid tactics, both have their place
in an experienced combat shooters repertoire.

I'd say the higher skill level is the one who does it better, no matter
which they are using.

Between a SEAL team and a green platoon doing supressive fire, I'd be
much more afraid of the SEALs, even though both can kill me, and likely
both will make me keep my ass out of sight.

The SEALs, otoh, will probably nail me the moment I AM in sight so I'd
be more likely to try to take shots of my own with green troops doing
supressive fire.

The higher skill level is being able to switch between the modes at
will, effectively. Most people without the skill or training (same
thing) will be unable to aim accurately after going full rock 'n' roll
for much time. 

This is why proper autoweapon discipline is 3-5 shot bursts. You gain
the supressive effect of full auto fire, yet retain much better control
of the weapon.

If I am wrong here, I'm sure Mark will correct me gently ;-)



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:34:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Okay, so that would be a higher level than the other two, but it still
doesn't answer my question.

- --Clif


>Freeze and Hold.....
>Thom
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 2:51 PM
>Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire
>
>
>>
>>
>>>Clif wrote:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>>>>
>>>>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>>>>
>>>>--or--
>>>>
>>>>"Confirm your target and then shoot."
>>>
>>>
>>>As it is asked, this question is a bit unclear. Do the people who shoot
>>>first shoot accurately, or do they just shoot faster? How fast are those
>>>that confirm their targets, and do *they* shoot accurately? Because of
>>>questions like this, you cannot say which of the above represent a higher
>>>skill level. However, if you rephrase it:
>>
>>
>>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>>its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is
a
>>war zone.
>>
>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:58:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Leviathan (was: Starhips)

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>It would be a good choice as well.  Very interesting ship with a great
>many
>paculiarities like redundant drives and an asteroind hull.

Leviathan wasn't an asteroid hull. Had redundant drives, though.  A good
choice.  

Craig, could you turn your talents to the Leviathan?


"Starhips"?  Sounds like a brand of jeans... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:08:11 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:35:48 -0500, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>"The problem with DNA and radiation is, I believe, that the
>radiation comes along and cleaves the strand.  The strand
>then has to be fixed correctly.  Replacing it with other
>polymers won't change that."

>	This is, as I understand it, the way it happens. I was
>	wondering, however, whether or not other polymers are
>	less susceptible to radiation cleavage.

The energy deposited by raditation is high enough that it
will generally destroy the molecule at the site where it
is deposited.

Other have mentioned damage by radicals created by radiation,
but it seems to me that it would not too hard to scavange
this and that the main, non-prevenatable, source of problems
is direct cleavage of DNA, but I'm not a biologist.

>"Solutions are multiple copies of DNA (some radiation resistant
>bacteria do this), addition strands (some redundant?), improved
>repair abilities."

>	In complex organisms, multiple copies of DNA are not
>	always going to help without sophisticated repair
>	mechanisms. Even if there are three undamaged and one
>	damaged gene for (say) hemoglobin, your blood will not
>	function very well if one quarter of the hemoglobin is
>	flawed.

You get multiple copies in the same cell.  So when the cell
detects that one is damage, it just replicates a different
strand to replace it.

>"Also, small genomes would be good to.  A lot
>of DNA doesn't code for anything, but represents places it can
>be damage, you want to reduce this.  (Pine trees suffered more
>at Chernoybl (sp?) becase they have large genomes)."

>	Why would this be? We all have loads of DNA that is never
>	transcribed, but random changes in these sections are
>	very unlikely to cause any harm.

I'm not sure why.  I know large genomes are bad.  And I know
that pinetrees probably don't have any more expressing
genes than other plants (it this true?).  So the extra
damage must occur at non-expressing sites.  My guess is
that you can't always fix cleaved DNA.

> I would be interested
>	if you have a reference for the Chernobyl pine trees.

Sorry, I saw it on a PBS documentary.  But you probably could
dig up an article on the environmental aspects of Chernobyl
pretty easy...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:10:54 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

In a message dated 2/15/99 9:09:06 AM Central Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
writes:

<<   Can someone refresh my memory- what era is Marc planning for T5 and what
 sectors will be the focus?
  >>

Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:11:46 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Leviathan (was: Starhips)

Ok...so I'm a bad typist <G>




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:23:48 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships

>Trader/Corsair (400 dton) (1)
>	Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava-class, perhaps J3) (2)

Based on how trade is presented in Far Trader, I wouldn't call a
J3 trader a "trap".  I'm not saying you shouldn't have a J-3
trader, just that I wouldn't present it as a "tramp".  Maybe
call it a "small independant liner".

>Ancients' military ship (2)

I think this should be done if an when a write-up on the ancients
is done.  Otherwise a lot of things that seem a good idea at the
time may end up causing problems.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:58:05 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: [none]

Dear Folks -

Clif asked:
>And what would happen to ME if someone
>shot me with EMP?

...your mail server would crash.

;-)

(Sorry, it's Monday).

- - Hyphen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:33:18 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...

Ive noticed that everybody posts his Top 10 of Starships here. 
Loren, however said that he still could not read the list, and that all
replies 
should go to him at lkw@io.com

So please repost your mails to him personally. and only cc them to the list....
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:45:11 EST
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: More T5 Questions

To Marc if he's still here- more questions; do you envision leaving any
sectors exclusively open for GM development? If so, which ones? I kind of
liked that feature in T4; I knew I could safely develop MTU without bumping
into canon. Love to hear your thoughts.......
J.LaRosee 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:56:13 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 05:35 PM 2/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>What I would like to see are :-
>
>Patrol Ship (Lurushaar Kilaalum Class)
>Patrol Cruiser (Darrian Barkdoldin Class)
>Yacht (Lady of Shallot Class)
>MK Transport (Al Morai World Class)
>RT Long-Liner (Tukera proprietary passanger liner)
>CT Cargo Carrier (used by Oberlindes Lines)
>Fleet Escort (Sloan Class)
>TI Frontier Transport (Imperiallines)

I'd add to this the aforementioned Leviathan and also the Sydaki class
cruiser.  

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #148
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 149



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

deckplans
Re: T5 Questions
Verge Subsector names.
Re: Starships 
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Starships
Re: Starships
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #148
Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Aslan
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Domain of Deneb
Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Top 10 GT Starships
Milieu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:05:16 +1100
From: Cory Davis <cory@chem.eng.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: deckplans

Hi All

In talking about the new deckplans people wanted, has anybody noticed that
in GT: Alien Races I the Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97) is
missing the Gcarrier spacedock, but more curiously the Vargr Trader (GT:
Alien Races I, pp. 98-99) has identical decks 1 and 2, is this a typo,
Because it seems to be missing a bridge

what does everybody think ?

Cory

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:00:57 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.
> 
> Marc

Speaking in the royal third-person again, I see ;-)

I really look forward to this. This time is rife with adventure fun.

The initial expansion of the 3I is going strong, they run smack into a
equally powerful interstellar state (the Julian Protectorate). 

All the bitter fruits of the initial stages of the expansion are
starting to ripen (lots of worlds have been through the Zhunastu school
of contact) and there have gots to be thousands, if not millions of
scalawags, carpetbaggers, heroes, lost causes and villains scattered
throughout the huge, porous frontier that is the nebulous edges of the
Third Imperium...

Then again, since this is kinda like how MTU has _always_ been, it's not
surprising I look forward to it. ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:23:25 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@ipec.com>
Subject: Verge Subsector names.

Hello,
Does anyone have the subsctor names for Verge Sector. In all my
research I have not found any published names for them. Do any exist or
what?

Thanks,
Clifford
cnl@ipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:26:01 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Starships 

Hmm ... my list:

Solomani Free Trader (Sundowner) from Solomani & Aslan/AM6
Aslan Surveyor from same
Vargr Packet from Vilani & Vargr
TI Frontier Transport
Midu Agashaam Destroyer
a mid-sized liner
Patrol Cruiser
A zhodani scout (or spy craft)
A deep exploration vessel - zhodani or solomani
A space station

By the way, one difficult-to-find, nice ship is the Fiery class gunned escort 
from MTJ - this was a Rob Caswell deck plan and therefore might be reprintable?

M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:39:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:

>Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.

Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's Regency.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:32:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

At 02:48 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
>war zone.
>
>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

Neither.

What you have here is a *perception* and *tactics* problem.  Before
bringing the weapon into play, you need to ID the enemy and decide on your
best approach to the problem.

Gun Combat skill covers hitting a target with the weapon.  Whether that
target is on a range at Ft. Carson or the FEBA of the Battle of Grungir IX.

<Shameless ACQ plug>

ACQ handless this by having an action reaction task, and using Action
Points.  In Clif's example, the two parties would make perception rolls to
see if they even detected each other.  They could spend some of their AP to
raise the target number of the task.  Assuming that they both detect the
other, they would roll an action/reaction task against each other.. largest
margin between die roll and target number goes first.  When shooting, you
can use AP to improve your target number to simulate aiming.

</Shameless ACQ plug>
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html 

"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." 
           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:49:29 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Starships

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> writes:
>I'd add to this the aforementioned Leviathan and also the Sydaki class
>cruiser.  

Hm. 

As co-designer of the original Sydkai, do I hear a request to redesign in
GT terms?

Hm. Contract law question for Bloo here. I wrote the Sydkai article for
DGP, but was never paid. Roger Sanger has ignored my messages. I assume
that that means that I could sell the article to SJG?

(Yeah, I know I could reword it, but a lot of that article would transfer
directly, and I _hate_ unnecessary work.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:14:11 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 05:49 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> writes:
>>I'd add to this the aforementioned Leviathan and also the Sydaki class
>>cruiser.  
>
>Hm. 
>
>As co-designer of the original Sydkai, do I hear a request to redesign in
>GT terms?

Beg, grovel, plead...  ;-)

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:23:44 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #148

> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:23:48 -0800
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Starships
> 
> >Trader/Corsair (400 dton) (1)
> >	Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava-class, perhaps J3) (2)
> 
> Based on how trade is presented in Far Trader, I wouldn't call a
> J3 trader a "trap".  I'm not saying you shouldn't have a J-3
> trader, just that I wouldn't present it as a "tramp".  Maybe
> call it a "small independant liner".
> 

"Tramp" is the correct technical term for a freighter that does not follow
a preset route or schedule; one that does is called a "liner". Traveller
has used "trader" and "merchant" (respectively) as synonyms, but not
consistently.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:27:38 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...

At 22:33 15-2-99 +0100, Volker wrote:
>Ive noticed that everybody posts his Top 10 of Starships here. 
>Loren, however said that he still could not read the list, and that all
>replies 
>should go to him at lkw@io.com
>
>So please repost your mails to him personally. and only cc them to the
list....

What's the difference between sending the mail to Loren, cc the list, and
sending it to the list, cc Loren?  Or sending it to the list *and* to Loren?

Incidentally, every time one of the starships posts came across which
didn't include Loren's e-mail address (either "to" or "cc"), I took the
liberty of forwarding it to him....


James

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:44:15 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/15/99 9:09:06 AM Central Standard Time, JLAROSEE@aol.com
> writes:
>
> <<   Can someone refresh my memory- what era is Marc planning for T5 and what
>  sectors will be the focus?
>   >>
>
> Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.

Uh oh.  Marc's writing in the third person.

Martin II is Emperor (since 195), he's 145 and has no heir.  He is third in
the Lentuli line.  He has at least one nephew.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:46:47 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:
>
> >Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.
>
> Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's Regency.

Hmm.  What little MT material I have hints that this may be an entertaining
period.  But can you summarize why you want that, Doug?


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:56:40 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

Date sent:      	Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:39:30
From:           	"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:

>>Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.

>Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's Regency.

Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"

Andrew hopes for the Solomani Rim during the Interstellar Wars :*>



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:03:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Aslan

  Re: Ross Coburns comment a human culturally assimilated to Aslan norms -
this came up in a discussion I had last year (after noticing the basis for
it in AM:1), and I was wondering what mechanisms would be used to allow for
the most obvious discrepancies between the two biologies.

  Specifically, would the solution to the different gender birth ratios be
cultural or genetic? Would they ignore it on the basis that Aslanized humans
are fairly rare and just have (human) families within their clans where the
males are over-supervised (except that this would leave potentially more
breeding couples active, depending on how most Aslan families are organized).

  OTOH, maybe the fact that the human males are Aslanized but simply lack
the mass (and dewclaws) of biologically Aslan males could account for a
certain amount of attrition - you only need to lose about half of them to
get back to a 3:1 ratio.

  Hmm, love those survival rolls to survive adolescence :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:22:52 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

> I have questions about any kind of Firearm Combat skill...
> 
> Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
> 
> "Shoot first and ask questions, later."
> 
> - --or--
> 
> "Confirm your target and then shoot."

<much snipping>

In GURPS, the modifier is called SS (snap shot).  Each projectile 
weapon has a "Skill Level" requirement that allows a character to 
shoot "without aiming."  If the character's skill is below the SS 
number, then there is an additional penalty (-4 IIRC) applied to the 
die roll.  Perhaps you could make some conversions from GURPS 
to Traveller.  This SS could represent a "Coolness Under Fire."

Otherwise, I would use:

"Take cover first and then shoot at any unfriendlies"


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:27:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 06:46 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Hmm.  What little MT material I have hints that this may be an entertaining
>period.  But can you summarize why you want that, Doug?

<Curly>
Sooitenly!
</Curly>

IMTU, the Civil War was just that, civil.  It was a war of admirals and
fleets, and most worlds were never touched, life went on.  In that kind of
environment, there had to be a great deal of political dealing going on..
why seize the throne if your Chief of Staff is just going to take it away
from you?

Then cam Arbellatra, blazing in from the Marches.  She sets herself up as
Regent, and institutes a search for a legitimate heir.  A real heroine.

Or is she?  What if the Throne is her goal from the start, and the search
is a red herring to lure out and eliminate claimants?  And those Admirals
who survived.. they'll all have skeletons in their closets as they scramble
to find a place in the new order.  The doesn't escape blame.. why did they
submit to bayonet coronations?  Because they were lobbying potential
Emperors for power, even as they plotted the claimants downfall.

This is Core in the days after the war.. paranoia, suspicion, terror.  

Sounds like fun!
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:33:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:
> 
> >Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.
> 
> Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's Regency.

Kenji claims to agree wholeheartedly with Doug.  It also has potential to
tie in with the Marches (home of Plankwell & Arbellatra and her distant
descendant Norris of Regina) for folks whose interests lie there.

Besides, I can't imagine there's much left of the coreward regions around
200, actually, seeing as how Famille Spofulam would have migrated through
just recently.  

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:10:03 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

In a message dated 2/15/99 6:59:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< 
 Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"
  >>
Dave Nelson would like to see Diaspora or Massilia at the End of the Second
Imperium

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:17:39 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

	I must say I missed having the "Survival Roll" from Classic Traveller being
really a survival roll and not just an injury roll.  Wasn't it optionally a
Survival or Injury Roll in Mega Traveller?   

("If you like the survival roll so much, just make it a house rule then" you
may say. I know, I know, but I always preferred palying rules as written
whenever I can. ).

Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  I always
found it to be a neat, unique feature of the game, that sort of set it apart.

			Dave Nelson  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:57:01 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

From: Kenji Schwarz 
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> > At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:
> > 
> > >Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and
Antares.
> > 
> > Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's
Regency.
> 
> Kenji claims to agree wholeheartedly with Doug.  It also has potential to
> tie in with the Marches (home of Plankwell & Arbellatra and her distant
> descendant Norris of Regina) for folks whose interests lie there.
> 
> Besides, I can't imagine there's much left of the coreward regions around
> 200, actually, seeing as how Famille Spofulam would have migrated through
> just recently.  

From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance 
> Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"
> 
> Andrew hopes for the Solomani Rim during the Interstellar Wars :*>

Well, I've discussed it with Alan, and we agree.

Antares 198 is perfectly fine by us.  The good ol' Julians handed the
impies their head, which is not entirely a bad thing.

Post Civil War... Not enough frontier.  Good for intrigue, but you can do
that anywhere.

Interstellar Wars:  Yeah, but part of our brains say First Contact!  Or
before!  But that leads into messy "what actually happens during the 21st
Century" stuff, which causes people to gibber and froth at the mouth. 
(Well, at least those who care...)  So a maybe for this one.

And, our suggestion:  Spinward Marches, Year 100!  Total frontierland.  So
what if the official contact with the Swordies and Darrians didn't happen
until later - that's only official contact.  We don't know what pocket
empires might have existed and fallen during the period.  The earliest
canon maps we have are very sketchy, and don't necessarily show
"unofficial" and unrecognised states.  Basically it's a playground for
traders, explorers, would-be empire builders, pirates (without messy
Imperial entanglements), mercs and general scumbags.  Yes, and diplomats,
bureaucrats and other intriguers.  It would give people a chance to stick
their fingerprints on the TU in the place that is closest to most peoples'
hearts.  Mapping would be easy, too.  And the monstrosity known as Fusion
Plus doesn't really matter.  There are patches of civilisation too....  Oh,
and of course, there's the whole great chunk of existing canon material
that can be plugged in.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:30:42 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Domain of Deneb

Dear Folks -

Christopher wrote:
>> Sorry, but the Domain of Deneb astrographically contains Reft Sector,
>This must come as a shock to the Darrians, the Sword Worlds,
[etc]

From the Library Data:

"Area of Imperial territory, based on four adjacent sectors, generally
under the control of an Archduke.

Emperor Artemsus established six domains in 76. These were to be
administered by
Archdukes, and were designed to better manage the Pacification Campaigns
(76-120).
The Domain of Deneb was established in 589 by Empress Jaqueline I .

The domains of the Imperium are Antares , Deneb , Gateway , Ilelish , Sol ,
 Sylea
(administered directly by the Emperor ), and Vland."

The domains were merely administrative areas, arbitrarily assigned. The far
trailing-rimward corner of Deneb, for instance, is on the other side of the
Great Rift. It is only nominally administered by the Domain of Deneb, is
more properly administered by Gushemege or Ilelish sectors! And yes, the
Darrians and so on ARE covered by the Domain of Deneb. The Domain still
trades and negotiates with them, after all.

"Only Norris could go to Zhodane."  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:44:25 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...

At 18:27 15.02.99 -0500, you wrote:

>What's the difference between sending the mail to Loren, cc the list, and
>sending it to the list, cc Loren?  Or sending it to the list *and* to Loren?
Most of the mail i read had no CC, so what i wanted to say was:
People, Loren cant read them here, forwardthem to him...
Which way around is irrelevant, you are right!
>
>Incidentally, every time one of the starships posts came across which
>didn't include Loren's e-mail address (either "to" or "cc"), I took the
>liberty of forwarding it to him....
Good job! 
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:06:21 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 11:57 16-2-99 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
>And, our suggestion:  Spinward Marches, Year 100!  Total frontierland.  So
>what if the official contact with the Swordies and Darrians didn't happen
>until later - that's only official contact.  We don't know what pocket
>empires might have existed and fallen during the period.  The earliest
>canon maps we have are very sketchy, and don't necessarily show
>"unofficial" and unrecognised states.  Basically it's a playground for
>traders, explorers, would-be empire builders, pirates (without messy
>Imperial entanglements), mercs and general scumbags.  Yes, and diplomats,
>bureaucrats and other intriguers.  It would give people a chance to stick
>their fingerprints on the TU in the place that is closest to most peoples'
>hearts.  Mapping would be easy, too.  And the monstrosity known as Fusion
>Plus doesn't really matter.  There are patches of civilisation too....  Oh,
>and of course, there's the whole great chunk of existing canon material
>that can be plugged in.

I'll second the motion - this sounds like a really good idea.


James

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:40:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

> Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"<

Gee, does that mean that SwordWorlder could vote for the Sword Worlds
colonization period?  We would be so joyous!




==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:38:49 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Top 10 GT Starships

At 02:52 PM 15/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/13/99 11:28:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>nimrod@santech.com writes:
>
><< The only version of the deckplans I ever saw was in FASA's Adventure Class
> Ships Vol. II.
> The plans were for the Lurushaar Kilaalum Type T Patrol Cruiser.  This was
> put together by the Keith brothers John Harshman and a few others whose
> names fall back in the mists of Traveller antiquity, so as far as I am
> concerned it was official. >>
>
>does anybody have a copy of these deck plans?
>
        Yep.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:41:27 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Milieu

How about right at the beginning of the Long Night?  We get that wonderful
film noir feel,  mixed up with Ensign Flandry and the Foundation series-
there are still pocket empires, the core, wilderness, and the frontier is
still there for those who need to just get away.  Admitedly, there will be
the great temptation to change "history," but that's just part of the fun.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #149
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 16 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 150



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re : Alien Biology Question
Re : clathrates - was Mother of Storms, etc.
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: A World Without Death
Re: T5 Questions
HIWG CD cost/availability
Re: Xboat Tender
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Survival & Milieu T5
Query re: first ed. LBB's
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Query re: first ed. LBB's
Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...
Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Starships
Re: Milieu
Re: T5 Questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:43:01 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

Question for our Scandanavian TMLers (and other interested parties):

Suppose you established a colony world in 2055, with the following
demographics:

German	& Austrian	74,000
Dutch			8,000

Norwegian		9,000
Swedish		5,700
Danish			3,300
			--------
			100,000

If that colony were cut off from essentially all outside contact for 1,000
years, how reasonable is it to think that the three Scandanavian groups
might be assimilated to a single language? Is this possible, plausible but
unlikely, or totally anathema? Are there social or cultural barriers to
overcome, beyond the linguistic? You can assume that the colony is some
form of feudal technocracy at the start, if need be.

[This is essentially the linguistic situation on Neubayern in the Islands
Clusters as of recontact in 5530, with the date altered to eliminate the
time spent in cold sleep.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:51:34 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

Walter Smith wrote:

<< In Call of Cthulu, having your leg melted by a slime creature meant that
your character was permanently using a crutch. Having your Twilight 2000
character's arm sheared off by a flying piece of another PC's pelvic bone
(he got blown apart by an autocannon) means they call you "Lefty". There
are many games where "seriously wounded" is an evil thing to do to your
PC's - Travellers get off lightly!!!  <weg> >>

I've found that  in a low stella (Traveller) sinarios, putting a seriously
wounded player character in a position of choice of either prosthetics
(cybernetics) or visible maiming with disability limitations, they have
always (to date) chosen to be cybernetically enhanced, all but one have
taken blatent plusses usually inproved strength/dexterity/endurance, one
took fear enhancing/android like apperance.

I've countered by letting the society (3rd Imperium) sort them out by
social stigmatism. It doesn't sink in, they get the plusses not the
acceptance. For example an Ace Broker (broker-4) fails to preform as well
as may be expected (broker-3) due to dislrespect of the chrome-client.

The only claim I can make in this respect is that my munchkin sometimes
have less plusses than yours.

Richard Fields
New Zealand, a small group of islands southwest of California
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:44:43 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Alien Biology Question

David Summers wrote :-
> >"Also, small genomes would be good too.  A lot
> >of DNA doesn't code for anything, but represents places it can
> >be damage, you want to reduce this.  (Pine trees suffered more
> >at Chernoybl (sp?) becase they have large genomes)."
> 
> >       Why would this be? We all have loads of DNA that is never
> >       transcribed, but random changes in these sections are
> >       very unlikely to cause any harm.
> 
> I'm not sure why.  I know large genomes are bad.  And I know
> that pinetrees probably don't have any more expressing
> genes than other plants (it this true?).  So the extra
> damage must occur at non-expressing sites.  My guess is
> that you can't always fix cleaved DNA.
> 

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. The diploid number, or 'minimum
info required to build another human' is therefore 23 X 2 = 46.
Sex cells are haploid - they carry 23 chromosomes (to enable shuffling
of genes, hence the evolutionary advantage of sexual reproduction).

Some plants carry multiple copies of their complete chromosomal content.
They are said to be polyploid. Usually they display tetraploidy.

One problem is that the more info you carry, the more mistakes you can
carry too, despite tight proofreading. Errors will always occur, it just
happens rarely.

Another is that radiation can induce frame shifting at the next reading
or repair phase.

Remember that every DNA triplet codes for an amino acid. If you knock
one nucleotide out, you radically change the message.

Recent work also suggests that 'non-coding' regions (introns) may be
more important than first thought. DNA molecules may have the potential
to behave as enzymes. Catalytic RNAs certainly exist. It's early days
yet folks....  

There have been some excellent responses to Andy Akin's initial
question, viz. "What features would a lifeform have if it were extremely
radiation resistant?"

The source of the radiation is very important ; does it come from the
star or the planet itself?

If the former, underwater and underground forms will predominate ;
multicelled life capable of living on the surface will develop
relatively late in the planet's history.

If the planet itself is unusually radioactive (high concentrations of
actinides or smaller isotopes e.g potassium 42 or 44), the development
of multicellular organisms may not take place at all.

Radioisotopes are not easily differentiable from their ordinary
counterparts in most chemical systems. Elements with similar electronic
activity are problematic e.g. the uptake of strontium instead of calcium
into bone.

To recap :-
Radiation induces damage by two mechanisms :-
i. 'Direct hits' on sensitive macromolecules - DNA and proteins.
ii. Free radical formation and subsequent cellular injury.

Redundant information storage systems have been discussed, as well as
aggressive 'proof reading' strategies. The latter can also be applied to
proteins and RNAs with autocatalytic RNAs acting as RNases, for another
'layer of protection'.

One could also postulate an enhanced version of the ubiquitin system
which disassembles old or damaged enzymes in most eukaryotes and
bacteria (essentially surveillance proteins).

The heat shock protein system could serve as another model for a
corrective mechanism (inappropriate activation of HSPs has been
implicated in tumourigenesis).

Protection from free radical mediated injury requires very efficient
scavenger systems for superoxide (O^2-), peroxide (forms singlet
oxygen), and possibly hypochlorate (OCl-).

This would lead to defects in immunity against certain organisms which
are susceptible to 'oxidative bursts'. (e.g. the PCs introduce a mini
Plague of Duskir to the natives).

Enhanced cell-mediated injury would be useful in preventing the
development of cancerous cells, but would have adverse effects
(autoimmunity, hypersensitivity). The balance between the relative
efficacy of intracellular protection and extracellular protection needs
to be decided upon.

Cells are most vulnerable to radiation at the time they divide. DNA
synthesis is easily wrecked.
Rapidly dividing cells are the most sensitive to radiation e.g. bone
marrow and lining of the gut.

I would suggest that most of the organism's tissues would 'turn over'
very slowly or not at all.

There was some mention of accelerated metabolism and shorter lifespans 
because of the enhanced immune system and error handling machinery in
themselves as opposed to knock-on effects.

The primary determinants of metabolic rate would appear to be size and
activity level (e.g. mice v elephants). My gut feeling would be that the
slow cell turn over rate would mitigate any effects caused by
'enhancements'.

Hmm...
Andy, have you considered using the Virushi???

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:50:54 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : clathrates - was Mother of Storms, etc.

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
>I wonder if anyone can dig up info on the physical properties of the
>clathrates? If they are denser than ice, we may have a new candidate
>for use as fuel in the "ignore the weight, I want low volume!" type of
>ships. :-)

The following URL may be of interest :-
http://www.hydrate.org/chem.htm

Other interesting fuels :-
aerated solid propellants : e.g engine oil in resin with dissolved
oxygen (200 atmospheres pressure to introduce).
jelled LH2 - methane 10% w/w with LH2?


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:09:29 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

At 08:17 PM 15/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>	I must say I missed having the "Survival Roll" from Classic Traveller being
>really a survival roll and not just an injury roll.  Wasn't it optionally a
>Survival or Injury Roll in Mega Traveller?   
>
>("If you like the survival roll so much, just make it a house rule then" you
>may say. I know, I know, but I always preferred palying rules as written
>whenever I can. ).
>
>Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  I always
>found it to be a neat, unique feature of the game, that sort of set it apart.
>
>			Dave Nelson  

        I did not like how it discouraged new players.  So, I changed it to
an "injury" roll where the highest physical stat was permanently reduced by
however much the roll was missed by.  And you were cashiered.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:42:50 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: A World Without Death

>I've heard dark, giggling rumors about how a certain enactment of the
>_Traveller Adventure_ saw the PCs steal the Scout/Courier in the museum
>and use it for their getaway.

Quite a feat, considering that the Aramis Museum is deep underground, with
no direct opening to the surface and a mean tunnel height of 5 meters.

I suppose the players could just say they took it out the same way the
museum got it in...
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:46:08 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"
> 
> Andrew hopes for the Solomani Rim during the Interstellar Wars :*>
> 
As do I....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
     *o*o*o*     ooooooooooo
    o       o   o           o
    *       *    ooooooooooo
     o*o*o*o  

           B E A D S
 
 O      O    O     O     O  O
    O     O O   O    O O  O   O
             
             A N D

       D O U B L O O N S

       HAPPY MARDI GRAS!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:10:04 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD cost/availability

	A rough list of what can be found on the CD is located at:

members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/

	Cost is $20 total. There are about 14 left.

	Send to:

Bryan J. Borich
3890 50th street
San Diego, CA 92105-3005



Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:47:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Xboat Tender

Dear Folks -

I keep trying Jesse's address but the mail bounces. I'll reply here in the
hope he sees it.

Jesse was after a scanned copy of the Xboat Tender. Try looking for
"DECKPLANS" on my Jump points page - I *think* that the Xboat is on Stewart
P. S. Eyres' page, but I can't view it from work. If not, try some of the
others - or loop thru the Deckplans Webring.

I'm looking forward to a fantastic pic of the Xboat Tender appearing on the
cover of "First In" (I *hope* that's what Jesse is targetting)!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:26:05 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> This is Core in the days after the war.. paranoia, suspicion, terror.
>
> Sounds like fun!

Hmm.  Tempting, but perhaps too lacking in frontier activities, like
encountering
aliens and foreign powers, mysteries, exploratory trade, etc.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards someone's suggestion of the Marches
around 100, but the Marches has been done how many times?

But what are we looking for in a good sector/milieu?
Some of mine:

 - Miltary conflict, at least in recent past.
 - Contact with aliens, perhaps in conjunction with above
 - Likelihood of risky adventure and trade
 - Set somewhere between Milieu 0 and MT (Milieu 1100)
 - Previously undeveloped, at least not extenisively (probably most important).

Some potential areas:

Reaver's Deep / Daibei
 - Aslan  (pre-380 Border Wars)
 - Solomani (Easter Concord until 486, Old Earth Union)
[Military conflict, Political Intrigue, Trading Potential, Aliens]


Antares
 - Julian Protectorate (after 175)
 - League of Antares (autonomous region)
 - Vargr Extents [Vargr Campaigns begin in 210]
[Military conflict, Political Intrigue, Trading Potential, Aliens]

Of the two, I lean towards Reaver's Deep/Daibei (but I don't know if these
sectors have been developed before.  IIRC, Reaver's Deep has been.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:41:02 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

"Christopher B. Thrash" wrote:

> Question for our Scandanavian TMLers (and other interested parties):
>
> Suppose you established a colony world in 2055, with the following
> demographics:
>
> German  & Austrian      74,000
> Dutch                   8,000
>
> Norwegian               9,000
> Swedish         5,700
> Danish                  3,300
>                         --------
>                         100,000
>
> If that colony were cut off from essentially all outside contact for 1,000
> years, how reasonable is it to think that the three Scandanavian groups
> might be assimilated to a single language? Is this possible, plausible but
> unlikely, or totally anathema? Are there social or cultural barriers to
> overcome, beyond the linguistic? You can assume that the colony is some form
> of feudal technocracy at the start, if need be.

Assuming all of the colony live and work near each other,
German will be your dominant language obviously, due to the large
proportion.  I imagine that initially, it will be the language of work,
trade, and education even as the colony expands. Feudal Technocracy
will reinforce this.

These languages have a great deal of similarity and many of these
speakers are multi-lingual.  So it may be easier to preserve the
lower-population languages as a 'home' language.  And as the
coolony creates other settlements, if one is dominated by
language speakers of one type or another, that language may
have a resurgence (although I still think German would be the
trade language).

But with 1000 years, you could have anything!  English isn't that old.
So, its certainly plausible for a single language to evolve.  In fact,
it may be likely with the third and fourth generations.

Of course, I can't speak to specifics about the linguistic distinctions
with most of the languages.  Despite my Scandanavian nicknam.
;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:38:41 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Survival & Milieu T5

>
>Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"
>
I would like to see it set in the period of the First Interstellar War 
(and the ones that follow).  Better yet just put out the core of the 
Traveller universe in the main books and then sell a variety of Campaign 
books each covering a different period/setting.


>Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  
>I always
>found it to be a neat, unique feature of the game, that sort of 
>set it apart.
I thought it was a cool idea at first, but later it seemed like a waste 
of time to make up a character just to have it die before it was 
finished.  It is very realistic, maybe too realistic, but not very 
playable.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:52:33 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Query re: first ed. LBB's

  A quick question here - how much is a first edition set of the three
LBB's worth in very good condition? I've got a friend who wants to sell
them off, and I've no idea how much they're worth (i.e. how much I should
pay him if I decide I want them). They certainly look like they contain
some neat deviations from the later printings.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:01:28 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Christopher B. Thrash wrote:

>Question for our Scandanavian TMLers (and other interested parties):
>
>Suppose you established a colony world in 2055, with the following
>demographics:
>
>German	& Austrian	74,000
>Dutch			8,000
>
>Norwegian		9,000
>Swedish		5,700
>Danish			3,300
>			--------
>			100,000
>
>If that colony were cut off from essentially all outside contact for 1,000
>years, how reasonable is it to think that the three Scandanavian groups
>might be assimilated to a single language? Is this possible, plausible but
>unlikely, or totally anathema? Are there social or cultural barriers to
>overcome, beyond the linguistic? You can assume that the colony is some
>form of feudal technocracy at the start, if need be.
>

Norwegian is only a language that is about a hundred years old and
based on danish. Here norway we have little truble understanding swedish,
danish is acctually harder due to the strange use of certian sounds.
(We always say that Danes talk like they have a potato in their troath).

In a thousand years there would be no difference in the language 
spoken by the scandinavian decendents, but with such a large german
and austrian influence I would say that it would be the dominent language.
Scandinavians often learn german, and even without this a slow speaking
german could easly make himself understood in Norway for example (given some
signlanguage thrown in). 

There is one cultural barrier that exists today that is worth mentioning.
Norway was occupied by Germany during WWII and the Scandinavians were
the perfect example of the white race for the Nazi. This has made the
scandinavians (especially the norwegians) to become very aware of 
facist grupps. If this was dominantly present in the German population 
I could beleave that the norwegians would avoid contact with the germans
to a large extent, something that could lead to the preservation of
their culture.

One interesting idea would be to throw in a group from Iceland. Now they 
could perserve both their language and culture for one millenia.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:23:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Query re: first ed. LBB's

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   A quick question here - how much is a first edition set of the three
> LBB's worth in very good condition? I've got a friend who wants to sell
> them off, and I've no idea how much they're worth (i.e. how much I should
> pay him if I decide I want them). They certainly look like they contain
> some neat deviations from the later printings.

I would say $15-$30 (US) for the lot.  I wouldn't pay more than the low
end myself.   People how already have them, may pay for a copy in
great condition, whereas others, like myself, are only really interested in
the content.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:42:53 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...

At 22:33 15/02/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>Ive noticed that everybody posts his Top 10 of Starships here. 
>Loren, however said that he still could not read the list, and that all
>replies 
>should go to him at lkw@io.com
>
>So please repost your mails to him personally. and only cc them to the list....
>Volker

A minor point perhaps - but I would question the suitability of your
message title.

Perhaps "Please copy starship lists to Loren" would have been better.

On the other hand, I wouldn't have read your message twice if you had.
:-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:53:10 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

At 15:58 15/02/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>It would be a good choice as well.  Very interesting ship with a great
>>many
>>paculiarities like redundant drives and an asteroind hull.
>
>Leviathan wasn't an asteroid hull. Had redundant drives, though.  A good
>choice.  
>
>Craig, could you turn your talents to the Leviathan?

What would be a suitable format for putting the deckplans of a 5000T
exploratory trader on the web?

GIF seems somewhat unsuitable. The easiest would be a zipped CC Artworks
file, but that might be a bit obscure for most people. :-)

(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
 such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)

I was actually prompted to post this by Volker pleading
	"DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE..."
even though he meant something else :-)

Phil Kitching


- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:11:56 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote

MM  > > > Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 
MM  > > > 198 and Antares.

DB > > Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during 
DB > > Arbellatra's Regency.

KS > Kenji claims to agree wholeheartedly with Doug. 

Peter is confused when others refer to self in third person.  Peter
thinks Doug is good writer, if Doug wants Core during Arbelleatra's
Regency will Doug write it?

Peter would like to see a sector map and an entire sectors worth of
UPP"s for whatever sector is chosen to appear in the basic book.  One of
the truisms of the current RPG market is that settings sell, not
systems.  One of the advantages of the Traveller setting has always been
its _scope_.  Publishing an entire sector in the basic book may go part
of the way towards conveying that scope to new players.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:37:05 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

><Deckplans from GDW & DGP (available on the HIWG CD):>
>Where can I get this CD?
...
>You SURE these are on the HWIG CD???
>Where?

They are on mine :) in the deckplan base directory. 
Mine is Nov 98 issue - labelled 981130_1821.

There are other deckplans on there too. But I have not been able to read 
all of them.

It was recently purchased from BITS (bits@bits.org.uk  www.bits.org.uk)
In the states I think it is available from Bryan Borich 
(Kagehira@aol.com)


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:25:18 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Milieu

"Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com> writes:
>How about right at the beginning of the Long Night?  We get that wonderful
>film noir feel,  mixed up with Ensign Flandry and the Foundation series-
>there are still pocket empires, the core, wilderness, and the frontier is
>still there for those who need to just get away.  Admitedly, there will be
>the great temptation to change "history," but that's just part of the fun.

But only for a few short years. 

(Mind you, allowing a few more children to grow up in peace is worth any
sacrifice, even one's honour and integrity. Sort of adds to the
"noir-ness" of Flandry's life, that he _knew_ that he would make no real
historical difference. But he added up the years of life saved, across the
Empire, for each year he delayed the Fall...)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:08:12 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 11:57 16-2-99 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
>And, our suggestion:  Spinward Marches, Year 100!

That's where I'm planning to go (well maybe nearer Y2C)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #150
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 16 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 151



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Donsev Class scout shihhp
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Donsev Class scout ship
Re: Donsev Class scout ship
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Alien Biology...
re: Alien Biology
Re: Starships
Re: T5 Questions
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Donsev Class scout ship
Re: Scandinavian languages
Milieu of Choice...
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Daibei & Reavers's Deep Available?
Re: Alien biology question (long)
Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
Re: Proving my point

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 05:21:26 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Donsev Class scout shihhp

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:22:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         I must say I missed having the "Survival Roll" from Classic Traveller being
> really a survival roll and not just an injury roll.  Wasn't it optionally a
> Survival or Injury Roll in Mega Traveller?
> 
> ("If you like the survival roll so much, just make it a house rule then" you
> may say. I know, I know, but I always preferred palying rules as written
> whenever I can. ).
> 
> Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  I always
> found it to be a neat, unique feature of the game, that sort of set it apart.

Well, I'll have to take the other tack...ever get a complete newbie 90%
through character generation, have 'em miss one roll and tell them...

"Oh well, start over, that one died..." 

They say "Oh well, that's over, lets go play D&D some more. This Traveller is
a STUPID game."

KILLING characters before you even _start_ playing always seemed to me to be
the ultimate in user-unfriendliness. 

Sure it set it apart from other games...but that wasn't necessarily good. At
least Paranoia is up front about it and tells you right off that you're going
to be running Owen PlayerCharacter 7 before long...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 05:24:39 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Donsev Class scout ship

Does anyone know where the deckplans for the ship class are? if there 
are any??

<---- Not a knowledgeable  experienced member of the list :)

Mike

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:40:38 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Donsev Class scout ship

Michael McKeown wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where the deckplans for the ship class are? if there
> are any??

DGP's World Builders Handbook

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:03:12 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>What would be a suitable format for putting the deckplans of a 5000T
>exploratory trader on the web?
>
>GIF seems somewhat unsuitable. The easiest would be a zipped CC Artworks
>file, but that might be a bit obscure for most people. :-)

True.
>
>(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
> such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)

GIF would be the lowest common denominator, having GIF available would be
nice.

I have Acrobat Exchange and PDFWriter, so I can make PDF files.
<plug>That's how I made 101 Starships.</plug>

Dom Mooney had Acrobat as well, and has a better computer than me, so he
can probably handle the PDFing better. Dom, would you be game?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:04:17 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

> >Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  I always
> >			Dave Nelson  
> 
>         I did not like how it discouraged new players.  So, I changed it to
>         --Michel

	In character generation? Discourage new players? Whatever you 
mean?

	I refereed a pencil-and-paper MT campaign for two years and 
a half, with the premise of absolute combat realism and no referee 
intervention to save players. The result was that we lost a PC every 
two gaming sessions... my game rocketed in popularity in the local 
club, and the players developed caution and a "more roleplay, less 
combat" style. Never a single player was discouraged by that.

	About death in chargen (and you can imagine we used chargen *a 
lot*), we just maintained it there. It somewhat fit with the 
campaign. In order not to waste time for nothing, I simply instituted 
the rule that players should do their best to forget the failed PCs, 
so that I could use them as NPCs (forgetting about their death).

	All together, that meant I could almost forget about generating NPCs 
myself. Nice side-effect.

	Ahhh... those were good days. A single character actually survived 
for over a year real time (a scout: the marines died usually quick), 
and boy that was a memorable character. After it eventually died 
(in a Vargr corsair attack in the second part of the campaign), the 
player adopted the name of this character as real-life nickname 
(with it being something as strange as Zonk Shoshholl, you can 
imagine how he had became attached to him).
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:04:58 CET
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

Tommy gave you the norwegian perspective, now I give you a swedish 
perspective (danish - Hans?).

>On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Christopher B. Thrash wrote:
>>If that colony were cut off from essentially all outside contact for 
>>1,000 years, how reasonable is it to think that the three 
>>Scandanavian groups might be assimilated to a single language? Is 
>>this possible, plausible but unlikely, or totally anathema? Are 
>>there social or cultural barriers to overcome, beyond the 
>>linguistic? You can assume that the colony is some form of feudal 
>>technocracy at the start, if need be.
>
>Norwegian is only a language that is about a hundred years old and
>based on danish. Here norway we have little truble understanding 
>swedish, danish is acctually harder due to the strange use of certian 
>sounds. (We always say that Danes talk like they have a potato in 
>their troath).

The separation of the Norse language (aka North germanic) began ~1000 
years ago but swedish, norwegian and danish have remained very similar. 
I can understand spoken norwegian (so can most swedes) with little 
problem but I rather speak english when I'm in Denmark (because of that 
potato thing). They understand me but I dont't understand them. On the 
otherhand I find it much easier to read danish than norwegan. It is 
_very_ easy easy for a swede to learn norwegian and danish. Actually I 
have a friend who is half swedish/half norwegian who speaks all three 
fluently (he learned danish in 1-2 months). Given 1000 years of 
evolution I don't think the languages will reamain more separated than 
say, dialects are today.

>In a thousand years there would be no difference in the language 
>spoken by the scandinavian decendents, but with such a large german
>and austrian influence I would say that it would be the dominent 
>language. Scandinavians often learn german, and even without this a 
>slow speaking german could easly make himself understood in Norway >for 
example (given some signlanguage thrown in). 

About 30% of all school children in Sweden do at least 3 years of study 
in German (I did 6 years). Perhaps initially the mayor language would be 
english but given time german would become the language franca. Wonder 
if a scandinavian language would survive? A 1000 years is a lot of time.

>One interesting idea would be to throw in a group from Iceland. Now 
>they could perserve both their language and culture for one millenia.

Yes and the have very nice rolling R's (Icelandic is almost 100% 
preserved Ancient Norse and is separeted by 1000 years from the other 
scandinavian languages).

>Tommy Grav

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
"There are things so horrible that even the light is afraid of them."            
- --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 14:11:44 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Alien Biology...

Since I'm the one who posted the question, I thought I might comment...

First of all, thank you very much to all of you that have offered up ideas. Speaking as 
one who hasn't had any sort of biology since 11 years ago (and I got a C- in it), I was 
unsure if such a lifeform with radiation resistance could be found.

Now, to answer some questions -

1) The planet in question is not a friendly place to us poor humans (or for most life, 
for that matter). The binary stars in the system are prone to eratic variability, and 
radioactive solar flares are relatively common. The structure of the planet is such 
that it does not have a very effective van allen belt - only the atmosphere provides 
real protection from radiation. In addition, the planet itself possesses more natural 
radioactive substances than earth - although not massively so. The majority of the 
danger is from space.

2) I never mentioned this - but the race in question is _sentient_. Not an animal. In 
fact, at milleu 0 they have almost reached TL 12 (having received the jump drive from 
the Ithklur - who got it from the Hivers, of course).

3) Lets assume for a moment that the Krahz/Chk (the race) has backup genetic material, 
cellular repair mechanisms, and the ability to hunt down and neutralize free radicals 
in their own bodies - it seems to me the some unscrupulous people might want to get 
their hands on some of their blood/antibodies...

4) So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...what price do they pay? 
Suggestions I've heard are high metabolism and short life span (which work well with my 
vision)) - what unique health risks does such a race have? What would happen if their 
immune system broke down? How would that be better/worse than a human immune system 
disorder?

Again, thanks for all the insight...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:30:16 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Alien Biology

igor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
4) So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...what price do they pay? 
Suggestions I've heard are high metabolism and short life span (which work well with my 
vision)) - what unique health risks does such a race have? What would happen if their 
immune system broke down? How would that be better/worse than a human immune system 
disorder?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Since they're a spacefaring race, the question will come up: what happens
to them when they're not in their cozy high-rad environment?

Remember, this planet is home to them - they're comfortable there.

Once they leave, there may be adjustments to make. Will human-comfy
planets be too cold for them, too dim? Will they suffer vitamin or enzyme
deficiencies due to lack of energy in their new environment (much like
humans need some sunlight)? Will they go through an adjustment phase
where their defense mechanisms are running strong, with little radiation
to fight - their bodies have to eliminate defense compunds that are usually
expended fighting radiation.

Then they readjust when they come home again...they leave, their bodies
poison them (temporarily), they come back, their environment poisons
them until they're back in balance.

Unless they're well-adapted enought to the random radioactive solar
flares that they're comfortable over a wide range of radiation levels.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:52:55 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Current vote [I've adjusted a few of the categories; take these as
preliminary until I can do a complete recount]:

	Patrol Ship/Frigate/Corvette (6)
		Patrol Ship (Lurushaar Kilaalum-class)
		Gunned Escort (Fiery-class)
	Destoyer/escort (1000-3000 dTon) (6)
		Destroyer (Midu Agashaam-class) [3]
		Fleet Escort (Sloan-class)
	Space station or small highport w/modular components (6)

[Unsolicited comment: the space station should really be included in GT:
Starports instead.]

	Large passenger liner (5)
	Yacht (5) 
		(Lady of Shallot-class)

	Large freighter (4) 
		MK Transport (Al Morai World-class)
	Leviathan-class Merchant Cruiser (4)
	SDB/Monitor (4)

	Medium passenger liner (3)
		RT Long-Liner (Tukera Pride of Vland-class) [2]
	Old/low-tech merchant ship (3)
	Medium freighter (1000 dTon range) (3)
		CT Cargo Carrier (Oberlindes Lines)
		TI Frontier Transport (Imperiallines) [2]
	Dreadnaught (3)
	Cruiser (around 20 ktons) (3) 
		(Sydaki-class)

	Trader/Corsair 400 dton [3]
		Tramp starship (not Beowulf or Empress Marava-class, perhaps J3) (2)
		400-600 ton merchant (jump-2 or jump-3) (2)
		400td Corsair (as opposed to the Vargr Corsair) (2)

	Carrier w/ fighters (2)
 	Patrol Cruiser (Darrian Barkdoldin-class) (2)
	Spy ship/bigger scout (300-500 tons) (2)
	IISS survey cruiser (2)
	Medium exploration ship (1000-2000 dTons) (2)
	Non-Imperial warship (2)
	Ancients' military ship (2)
	Zhodani reconniassance scout/spy craft (2)
	Ship tender/Jump ship (from Fighting Ships) (2)

Deckplans already published for GT:
	Suleiman-class Scout/Courier (GT, p. 131)
	Beowulf-class Free Trader (GT, pp. 133-134)
	Zhodani Patrol Frigate (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 48-53)
	Zhodani Courier (GT: Alien Races I, p. 54)
	Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien Races I, p. 97)
	Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99)
	Drakaran Trader (GT: Alien Races I, p. 112)
	Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser (GT: Star Mercs, pp. 68-71)
	Empress Marava-class Far Trader (GT: Far Trader, p. 110)
	Akkigish-class Subsidized Merchant (GT: Far Trader, p. 118)
	

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:55:42 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote
>
>MM  > > > Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa
>MM  > > > 198 and Antares.
>
>DB > > Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during
>DB > > Arbellatra's Regency.
>
>KS > Kenji claims to agree wholeheartedly with Doug.


Bob Dole would like to see the region surrounding Terra during the
Interstellar Wars. Although if the rumored supplement to T5 covering this
period were to appear, Bob Dole might be appeased.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:18:31 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

From: Phil Kitching 
> At 11:57 16-2-99 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> >And, our suggestion:  Spinward Marches, Year 100!
> 
> That's where I'm planning to go (well maybe nearer Y2C)

The exact year doesn't matter, of course.  Still, it would be nice if it
was before the first contact between the TL12 Imperium and the TL16 (kind
of) Darrians....  Tell your players to bring a spare set of trousers... 
These people are dangerous.

From: steve daniels 
> At the moment, I'm leaning towards someone's suggestion of the Marches
> around 100, but the Marches has been done how many times?

This is a good point, of course.  However, the very familiarity is part of
the appeal.  You get to make the history with which you are familiar.  It's
also different enough, and dangerous enough to kill any number of smarties
that think they know it all.  And it's a damn fine time in its own right.

> But what are we looking for in a good sector/milieu?
> Some of mine:
> 
>  - Miltary conflict, at least in recent past.
>  - Contact with aliens, perhaps in conjunction with above
>  - Likelihood of risky adventure and trade
>  - Set somewhere between Milieu 0 and MT (Milieu 1100)
>  - Previously undeveloped, at least not extenisively (probably most
important).

Yep.

> Some potential areas:
> 
> Reaver's Deep / Daibei
>  - Aslan  (pre-380 Border Wars)
>  - Solomani (Easter Concord until 486, Old Earth Union)
> [Military conflict, Political Intrigue, Trading Potential, Aliens]
> 
> 
> Antares
>  - Julian Protectorate (after 175)
>  - League of Antares (autonomous region)
>  - Vargr Extents [Vargr Campaigns begin in 210]
> [Military conflict, Political Intrigue, Trading Potential, Aliens]
> 
> Of the two, I lean towards Reaver's Deep/Daibei (but I don't know if
these
> sectors have been developed before.  IIRC, Reaver's Deep has been.

Yes, it has.  The Reaver idea was one of the things that made me think of
SM100.  Basically, it's Pocket Empires at a much lower level, where someone
with a handful of ships is an Emperor.  RD and/or Daibei is another option
for this.

I'm fine about Antares, as I've said before.  It's a bit more structured
though, with real interstellar states out there.  That has its merits - PCs
can be 'controlled' more easily where there is some serious law
enforcement.

Frankly, I don't really care.  I'm glad several people have responded
favourably to my suggestion though.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:05:39 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Donsev Class scout ship

>Michael McKeown wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know where the deckplans for the ship class are? if there
>> are any??
>
>DGP's World Builders Handbook
>

Good luck, I might add.

ObTrav: I certainly hope that these deckplans will reappear in GT: First
In, at least in some form.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:17:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

Christopher B. Thrash writes:

>Suppose you established a colony world in 2055, with the following
>demographics:
> 
>German	& Austrian	74,000
>Dutch			8,000
> 
>Norwegian		9,000
>Swedish		5,700
>Danish			3,300
> 			--------
> 			100,000
> 
>If that colony were cut off from essentially all outside contact for 1,000
>years, how reasonable is it to think that the three Scandanavian groups
>might be assimilated to a single language? Is this possible, plausible but
>unlikely, or totally anathema? Are there social or cultural barriers to
>overcome, beyond the linguistic? You can assume that the colony is some
>form of feudal technocracy at the start, if need be.

Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are so closely related that if the three
countries were united, they would be called dialects. I can read Norwegian
and Swedish almost as fast as I read Danish. Speech is slightly more
difficult, but really only a matter of practice. In the colony you're
describing the three languages will (IMO) melt together in a matter of
years.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:31:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Milieu of Choice...

For T5, I really like the concept of the Stand-Alone Entry Points to 
detail alternate campaign points in the Traveller Timeline.  I am 
completely in agreement with Andrew MV on the First 
Contact/Interstellar War period, especially as a SAEP.

However, I really think that the main setting should be more able to 
use the races and background that have marked the majority of 
Traveller development over the last 20 years.  I'd suggest as the 
main setting a time period after the start of the 3I, perhaps during 
the height of the psionic suppressions, etc.  Location should enable 
the use of Traveller's most developed races, which seem to include 
Humaniti, Aslan, and Vargr, with Hivers and Droyne trailing not too 
far behind.

Another SAEP I'd like to see explored would be either the Long Night 
or the Geonee Era, where the political climate is completely 
different than the 3I setting, and other types of scenarios could be 
explored.  Just a thought...

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:26:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

In mail you write:

> What would be a suitable format for putting the deckplans of a 5000T
> exploratory trader on the web?
>
> GIF seems somewhat unsuitable. The easiest would be a zipped CC Artworks
> file, but that might be a bit obscure for most people. :-)

Do you have software that can import/export CGM files? Being a *vector*
format, I think it's the best bet. And a *lot* of packages can import
CGM. 

Bit-mapped formats all have problems when you try to scale them up or
down. Just as an example, I have a plotter that'll take B size paper.
It'd be great for deckplans. But not for ones in bit-mapped formats. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:44:50 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Daibei & Reavers's Deep Available?

Are these sectors available online anywhere?


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:41:22 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question (long)

David P. Summers writes:
"You get multiple copies in the same cell.  So when the cell
detects that one is damage, it just replicates a different
strand to replace it."

	The trick is identifying the one that is damaged, and
	'knowing' what to repair it to. Our cells are clever
	little machines, but I digress.

"I'm not sure why.  I know large genomes are bad.  And I know
that pinetrees probably don't have any more expressing
genes than other plants (it this true?).  So the extra
damage must occur at non-expressing sites.  My guess is
that you can't always fix cleaved DNA."

	There is certainly no reason to expect that pine trees 
	require more 'expressing' DNA than other plants, though
	I cannot be certain of this. On Terra, noncoding, highly 
	repetitive DNA can account for more than 90 % of some 
	genomes (a genome is the entire genetic complement of an
	organism). There are interesting theories about how such 
	DNA has accumulated (see for example 'The Selfish Gene' 
	by Dawkins), but it is thought that large genomes are 
	associated with large cells and slow development.


Robert O'Connor writes:
"I would suggest that most of the organism's tissues would 
'turn over' very slowly or not at all."

	Absolutely, and particularly reproductive tissue. This 
	gives me another thought: perhaps 'normal' (for Terra)
	cell turn over would be observed if most cells lacked
	genes. Imagine a dispersed network of cells that bud
	off 'slave' cells that contain enzymatic machinery, etc
	but no genes. These cells would be muscle, skin, bone, 
	etc, and might even continue to receive proteins from 
	the 'master' cells nearby. Such cells would probably
	not last long (like red blood cells) but the 'master'
	cell would not really replicate and so its genome would
	be protected somewhat. Senescence (aging) of these 
	'master' cells might be a problem, but then life is 
	tough all over.

"The primary determinants of metabolic rate would appear to 
be size and activity level (e.g. mice v elephants)."

	Don't forget about the vast majority of Terran 
	organisms that are not 'warm-blooded'.

"My gut feeling would be that the slow cell turn over rate would 
mitigate any effects caused by 'enhancements'."

	Probably true, and there are other advantages to having a 
	low metabolic rate (alligators have been around for a 
	while).


Ian
just another evolutionary biologist

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:47:28 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

In a message dated 2/14/99 4:10:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< He noted that after he got the permit, things changed a bit. Now he
 sees the cop start following, and then the cop generally quits
 following. 
 
 He figures that this is because when they run his plates, the concealed
 carry permit comes up, and they decide that they've got better things
 to do than bother somebody that they "know" has a gun. :-)
  >>

It's more likely that a citizen with a permit is (almost) always squeaky
clean. The people I worried about stopping were the idiots with the illegal
weapons under the car seat and/or in the glove compartment, which of course
doesn't show up on the DMV computer and I then get a BIG surprise if I'm not
careful...:-(. My firearms instructor has a class III US federal automatic
weapons permit and owns several submachine guns. I would LOVE to see the
expression of the officer who runs his plate and sees the list of weapons on
his license...:-). 

OB Trav: a reason to keep your imperial weapons permits valid is to show good
faith to the customs patrol so they are less likely to bust your balls during
an inspection...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:49:46 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

- --=====================_1241895==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Clay Wrote

>
> Actually, Clif has been proving my point all the while. He said the GM 
> is the "god" of the game. I said it was a bad analogy and most GMs who 
> refer to themselves as "gods" have delusions of grandeur. 


I'm coming into this thread rather late, but what the heck, I'll toss in a
flame: Clay's right. It's not only inaccurate to refer to a GM as "God," it's
not likely to foster a pleasurable roleplaying experience if you have a GM who
thinks this is his role.

The GM is more like a manager in a company. Number one, he's a facilitator. He
sets the environment and pace for the players to excel in their positions.
In a
company, employees should be productive. In an RPG, they should be having fun.

The GM is the final authority, like the corporate manager, but he has to
remember that roleplaying (like business) is a collaborate effort. In an RPG
it's collaborative storytelling. The GM plays the primary role in developing
the story, but it's the players who get the glory of moving the story, just as
it's the employees in the company who perform the actual work in a company
project.

Sometimes, the GM must levy decisions that aren't popular, but they're for the
good of the company. In an RPG, this can mean, for example, character death.
But like being disciplined or penalized in a corporate environment, the player
in an RPG should understand why he has been penalized and shouldn't come away
from the experience with any lasting negative feeling. And hopefully he should
be able to come back and continue to perform well having learned from his
experience.



- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml 
- --=====================_1241895==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Clay Wrote<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Actually, Clif has been proving my point all
the while. He said the GM <br>
is the &quot;god&quot; of the game. I said it was a bad analogy and most
GMs who <br>
refer to themselves as &quot;gods&quot; have delusions of grandeur.
</blockquote><br>
I'm coming into this thread rather late, but what the heck, I'll toss in
a flame: Clay's right. It's not only inaccurate to refer to a GM as
&quot;God,&quot; it's not likely to foster a pleasurable roleplaying
experience if you have a GM who thinks this is his role.<br>
<br>
The GM is more like a manager in a company. Number one, he's a
facilitator. He sets the environment and pace for the players to excel in
their positions. In a company, employees should be productive. In an RPG,
they should be having fun.<br>
<br>
The GM is the final authority, like the corporate manager, but he has to
remember that roleplaying (like business) is a collaborate effort. In an
RPG it's collaborative storytelling. The GM plays the primary role in
developing the story, but it's the players who get the glory of moving
the story, just as it's the employees in the company who perform the
actual work in a company project.<br>
<br>
Sometimes, the GM must levy decisions that aren't popular, but they're
for the good of the company. In an RPG, this can mean, for example,
character death. But like being disciplined or penalized in a corporate
environment, the player in an RPG should understand why he has been
penalized and shouldn't come away from the experience with any lasting
negative feeling. And hopefully he should be able to come back and
continue to perform well having learned from his experience.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Christopher
Griffen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&quot;Keeper of the Flame&quot;</div>
<div>cgriffen@best.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Traveller player since 1980</div>
<a href="http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml" EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml</a>
</html>

- --=====================_1241895==_.ALT--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #151
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 16 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 152



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Donsev Class scout shihhp
Droyne and Chirper worlds
Re: Milieu of Choice...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #151
Re: Proving my point
Re: Xboat Tender
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Donsev Class scout shihhp
Re: Proving my point
Re: Alien Biology...
.pdf deckplans: I'll do it!
Re: Alien Biology
What's My Mileau?
Re: Daibei & Reavers's Deep Available? 
Re: Traveller stuff at Titan Games 
re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Xboat Tender
Starship turrets
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:03:16 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Donsev Class scout shihhp

- --=====================_2051379==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Michael McKeown wrote: 

>
> Does anyone know where the deckplans for the ship class are? if there 
> are any?? 
>
> <---- Not a knowledgeable experienced member of the list :) 
>
> Mike 


World Builder's Handbook by DGP. Out of print.

Oh, and BTW, that's Donosev, not Donsev.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml 
- --=====================_2051379==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Michael McKeown wrote: <br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>Does anyone know where the deckplans for the
ship class are? if there <br>
are any?? <br>
<br>
&lt;---- Not a knowledgeable experienced member of the list :) <br>
<br>
Mike </blockquote><br>
World Builder's Handbook by DGP. Out of print.<br>
<br>
Oh, and BTW, that's Donosev, not Donsev.<br>
<br>
<div>------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Christopher
Griffen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&quot;Keeper of the Flame&quot;</div>
<div>cgriffen@best.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Traveller player since 1980</div>
<a href="http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml" EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml</a>
</html>

- --=====================_2051379==_.ALT--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:09:35 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Droyne and Chirper worlds

Does anyone have a good comprehensive list of Droyne and Chirper worlds 
available on line?

(NOTE: a statement telling me "it's on the HIWG cd" is not an answer
to this question.)


DonM.
- --
===========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist              dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems            (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                            (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVII Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org      (217) 469-9917 = 
===========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:18:14 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Milieu of Choice...

> From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>

> Another SAEP I'd like to see explored would be either the Long Night 
> or the Geonee Era, where the political climate is completely 
*****************
> different than the 3I setting, and other types of scenarios could be 
> explored.  Just a thought...

	Hear, hear!

	My choice: Massilia sector, 0-200 or 200-400.
	Carlos Alos-Ferrer
	a.k.a. the Geonee maker ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:20:22 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #151

> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:44:50 -0500
> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Daibei & Reavers's Deep Available?
> 
> Are these sectors available online anywhere?

	Bloo, check Keven's site at
	http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/index.html

	Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:37:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Proving my point

>>
>> Actually, Clif has been proving my point all the while. He said the GM
>> is the "god" of the game. I said it was a bad analogy and most GMs who
>> refer to themselves as "gods" have delusions of grandeur.

I create the universe, I setup the laws of nature, I give my people free
will unless overruled by me, my players worship me and give me gifts to
keep me in a happy ie I'm a God.

(I also think that religious people in general are WAY too sensitive about
poking fun on their delusions)

(Crawling into my heat resistant, flame retarding ball now.)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:38:35 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Xboat Tender

David,
  I've no idea why the message keeps bouncing back.  The only time that I
know of that that's happened was when someone was typing in my e-mail and
did @flip.net, instead of the corrrect one fenris@slip.net.  I was able to
get a really nice scan from someone, complete with the pic showing the
tender, x-boat, and Sulieman.  Now, as for the cover, that's up to Loren but
I sure would like to do it!!!  <hint hint>

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
<david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Xboat Tender


>Dear Folks -
>
>I keep trying Jesse's address but the mail bounces. I'll reply here in the
>hope he sees it.
>
>Jesse was after a scanned copy of the Xboat Tender. Try looking for
>"DECKPLANS" on my Jump points page - I *think* that the Xboat is on Stewart
>P. S. Eyres' page, but I can't view it from work. If not, try some of the
>others - or loop thru the Deckplans Webring.
>
>I'm looking forward to a fantastic pic of the Xboat Tender appearing on the
>cover of "First In" (I *hope* that's what Jesse is targetting)!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:50:53 -0600
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Try Ghostscript and Ghostview ( http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ ). It will let you 
convert any Postscript file to PDF format.

Lloyd

Original message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:03:12 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>What would be a suitable format for putting the deckplans of a 5000T
>exploratory trader on the web?
>
>GIF seems somewhat unsuitable. The easiest would be a zipped CC Artworks
>file, but that might be a bit obscure for most people. :-)

True.
>
>(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
> such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)

GIF would be the lowest common denominator, having GIF available would be
nice.

I have Acrobat Exchange and PDFWriter, so I can make PDF files.
<plug>That's how I made 101 Starships.</plug>

Dom Mooney had Acrobat as well, and has a better computer than me, so he
can probably handle the PDFing better. Dom, would you be game?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:47:17 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Donsev Class scout shihhp

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE5988.F4EAB780
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,
  I can't verify if the plans are going to be in "First In", but Loren =
has asked me to do that ship.  I'm assuming that the plans'll be in =
there off of that, but beyond that I have no hard info.  Just my Cr.02

Jesse DeGraff
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm
(note that this is going to change shortly, but I'll post to the list =
when it does).
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
    To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
    Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:02 AM
    Subject: Re: Donsev Class scout shihhp
   =20
   =20
    Michael McKeown wrote:=20
   =20
   =20
        Does anyone know where the deckplans for the ship class are? if =
there=20
        are any??=20
       =20
        <---- Not a knowledgeable experienced member of the list :)=20
       =20
        Mike=20
   =20
    World Builder's Handbook by DGP. Out of print.
   =20
    Oh, and BTW, that's Donosev, not Donsev.
   =20
   =20
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
    cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
    http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE5988.F4EAB780
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; I can't verify if the plans are going to be =
in=20
&quot;First In&quot;, but Loren has asked me to do that ship.&nbsp; I'm =
assuming=20
that the plans'll be in there off of that, but beyond that I have no =
hard=20
info.&nbsp; Just my Cr.02</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jesse DeGraff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/trav.htm">www.vision-forge-g=
raphics.com/trav.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>(note that =
this is going to=20
change shortly, but I'll post to the list when it does).</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Chris Griffen &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:cgriffen@cisco.com">cgriffen@cisco.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=
=20
    </B>Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:02 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Donsev =
Class=20
    scout shihhp<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Michael McKeown wrote: <BR><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite>Does anyone know where the deckplans =
for=20
        the ship class are? if there <BR>are any?? <BR><BR>&lt;---- Not =
a=20
        knowledgeable experienced member of the list :) <BR><BR>Mike=20
    </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>World Builder's Handbook by DGP. Out of =
print.<BR><BR>Oh,=20
    and BTW, that's Donosev, not Donsev.<BR><BR>
    =
<DIV>------------------------------------------------------------</DIV>
    <DIV>Christopher=20
    =
Griffen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    &quot;Keeper of the Flame&quot;</DIV>
    =
<DIV>cgriffen@best.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    Traveller player since 1980</DIV><A=20
    href=3D"http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml" EUDORA =
=3D=20
    AUTOURL>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml</A>=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE5988.F4EAB780--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:54:43 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >>
> I create the universe, I setup the laws of nature, I give my people free
> will unless overruled by me, my players worship me and give me gifts to
> keep me in a happy ie I'm a God.
> 

I agree. However, we referees are more like the Apollo god in one of the old
Star Trek episodes. If nobody worships us, we fade away. Meaning: without
players, we're no good, so we better not piss them off.

> (I also think that religious people in general are WAY too sensitive about
> poking fun on their delusions)
> 

Agreed also.

> (Crawling into my heat resistant, flame retarding ball now.)

Hey! This ball's taken. Get your own!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:52:34 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien Biology...

In a message dated 2/16/99 8:10:45 AM Central Standard Time, igor@truserve.com
writes:

<< 4) So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...what price
do they pay? 
 Suggestions I've heard are high metabolism and short life span (which work
well with my 
 vision)) - what unique health risks does such a race have? What would happen
if their 
 immune system broke down? How would that be better/worse than a human immune
system 
 disorder?
  >>

The long-term problems posed by radiation are primarily genetic material
breakdown. Everything else can be handled by basic physiological processes. 

Our (Terra circa 1990 and even before) handles the problem of radiation
degradation of processes in computers with a tell me three times system. Three
independent systems process data and give independent answers. If any two
agree, then that answer is used. Now imagine a DNA -analogue for cellular
systems that has three independent nuclei. Upon cell division, two  of the
three have to match for reproduction to occur (whether cell reproduction or
being reproduction).

There will be rare situations where two nuclei are identically damaged by
radiation. Other than that, mutations would be caused by factors other than
radiation.

Such beings would have larger cells (three nuclei) and a higher metabolic
overhead (although not necessarily a high metabolic rate). They would probably
be larger for the same effect in Terran physiology.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:13:28 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: .pdf deckplans: I'll do it!

I have the full Adobe Acrobat suite, and will cheerfully .pdf any deckplans
(or other interesting documents) that anyone cares to send to me via my
email address (listed below).

I can read Illustrator, Photoshop, any of the various .gif, .jpeg etc
formats. . .  If you're using anything obscure (and since I use a Macintosh,
CC is obscure) email me and I'll let you know if I can handle it.


_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

My Traveller Geek Code:
tc+ tm++ tn-- t4- tg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:36:25 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien Biology

igor writes:
"The binary stars in the system are prone to eratic variability, 
and radioactive solar flares are relatively common. The 
structure of the planet is such that it does not have a very 
effective van allen belt - only the atmosphere provides real 
protection from radiation. In addition, the planet itself 
possesses more natural radioactive substances than earth - 
although not massively so. The majority of the danger is from 
space."

	OK, so super-Terran cellular machinery can probably take 
	care of the planetary radiation. This might lead to
	drastically lower mutation and cancer rates when these
	creatures are away from their home world. For the bursts 
	of radiation from above, perhaps heavy shielding on dorsal
	surfaces (such shielding does not necessarily provide
	physical protection, but would probably be dense...with
	lead deposits? maybe they are resistant to heavy metal
	poisoning). On the other hand, they may all just hide in 
	a cave until the radiation subsides.

"I never mentioned this - but the race in question is _sentient_. 
Not an animal. In fact, at milleu 0 they have almost reached TL 12 (having
received the jump drive from the Ithklur - who got it from 
the Hivers, of course)."

	Terra is home to a notable sentient animal ;)

"Lets assume for a moment that the Krahz/Chk (the race) has backup genetic
material, cellular repair mechanisms, and the ability to 
hunt down and neutralize free radicals in their own bodies - it 
seems to me the some unscrupulous people might want to get their 
hands on some of their blood/antibodies..."

	Quite possibly. On the other hand, at TL 15 geneering 
	should already be well developed.

"So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...
what price do they pay? Suggestions I've heard are high 
metabolism and short life span (which work well with my vision))
 - what unique health risks does such a race have? What would 
happen if their immune system broke down? How would that be 
better/worse than a human immune system disorder?"

	Encumbrance due to heavy dorsal shielding
	Prone to autoimmune disease such as arthritis due to 
		hyperactive immune system
	High food requirement due to high metabolism
	Slow moving due to low metabolism (take your pick)
	Agoraphobia due to an instinctive dislike of places
		far from radiation cover
	Slow healing due to 'careful' DNA replication
	Interesting dietary requirements, such as lead
	Inability to resist diseases away from their home world
		when these diseases rapidly replicate (with 
		wanton disregard for accuracy of genetic
		replication)


Just a few ideas

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:31:13 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: What's My Mileau?

I would be just as happy seeing Mileau 0 continue; I don't feel all the
possibilities of that setting were explored, and I think it's one of the
more interesting Mileau's out there. Other than that, year 50 and the
exploration and colonization of the Spinward Marches would be my choice.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:49:57 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Daibei & Reavers's Deep Available? 

> Are these sectors available online anywhere?

Reavers' Deep is at http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/traveller/reavers.ht
ml.  Derek Stanley's mirrored those pages on his site too.

Can't help you with Daibei, though Derek is putting some of it up on his site.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:24:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller stuff at Titan Games 

  FWIW, Titan Games <www.titan-games.com> still has lots of Traveller and/
or GDW stuff on their special sale page; new condition and cheaper than most
sales or auctions.

...

>Everything below is either still in the shrinkwrap or in "Mint" condition.

>I have several copies of each of the items below, so if you are interested

>in more than one copy, let me know.
...

orders@titangames.com.

...
>Game Designer's Workshop:

>     MegaTraveller

>          Player's Manual (211) [$5, M]

>          Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$5, M]

>          Referee's Companion (215) [$7, M]

>     Misc. Science-Fiction Board Games

>          Imperium (0205) [$8, N]

>     Traveller
...

>     Traveller: 2300
...

>Judges Guild:

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:51:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:

>(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
> such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)

If you use Windoze 95+ then buy NikNak for 35 quid (or less) which
replicates Adobe's PDFwriter printer driver.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:54:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Dom Mooney had Acrobat as well, and has a better computer than me, so he
>can probably handle the PDFing better. Dom, would you be game?

I don't see why not - OTOH  Mike Peters can generate PDFs - he may be using
Windows?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:52:20 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Re: Xboat Tender

At 10:38 AM -0600 2/16/99, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
Now, as for the cover, that's up to Loren but
>I sure would like to do it!!!  <hint hint>

Jesse,
"fraid the cover for First In is already spoken for...I'll keep you in mind
for alter projects.

We may want to boost the Cutter project a little in priority, so if you
could model it after you've done the ships for Scouts?





Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:52:46 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Starship turrets

A question for the list.

I am playing around with deckplans and starship graphics. Currently, I am
looking at a turret on a starship, and I am wondering about it's design. Do
you envision a starship's turrets to be of the "ball turret" design, with
360 x 180 degree coverage (as on the old WWII B-17 belly gun? Or would they
be of a more limited-traverse turrets similar to the kind you see in all
kinds of starship illustrations (similar to modern-day naval guns)?

I tried putting a ball turret on top of a Type-S, but it looked kind of odd
and unstreamlined (since the axis of the ball needs to be outside of the
plane of the outer hull to account for a gun barrel).

I guess what I am asking for is an opinion of aesthetics v. functionality.
Of course, it could be that it's a truly foolish question (given the laser
arrays as depicted in FF&S, AFAIK ships weapons would look nothing at all
as they are portrayed in most popular illustrations).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:09:38 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

Christopher B. Thrash writes:
>>>>>>>>
Question for our Scandanavian TMLers (and other interested parties):


Speaking as an interested party...

What languages were spoken would depend on who was in power.  The people in
power direct the goverment, control business/wealth, and decide on what arts
flourish.

When the colonization effort was organized in the 21st, the Germans would
have the bulk of the space experience.  The Scandanavian groups probably
offered funding and selected expertise.  This might make them powerful in
colonial affairs, disproportionate with their small numbers.

Once the colony is set up, who is in power to begin with?

If everyone is equal, maybe English continues to be the linga franca,
gradually melding into the numerous German with Scandi words.  You could get
the English language structure, with most words having a German origin and a
strong Scandanavian presence.

If certain technologies are far more important to the colony's' survival,
the language of these technicians will have special protection.  If it one
or more of the Scandanavian groups, it could be that the Scandanavian
languages merge, picking up the majority German syntax.  There could appear
a two tier language, the upper class melded Scandanavian, the lower class
German.

If it were the other way around (Germans in charge of critical tech) the
Scandanavian languages would probably be swamped, appearing in a thousand
years only as occasional words or phrases.

Joe

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #152
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 16 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 153



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Daibei_&_Reavers=92s_Deep_Available=3F?=
Web Pages Update
Solomani space
Gods, afterall.
re: Starship turrets
Sorry, Guys...
Magazines
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #148
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Proving my point
re: .pdf deckplans: I'll do it!
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
Re: Alien Biology...
Re: Alien biology question (long)
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...
Re: Alien biology question (long)
Re: Starship turrets
Now what about Daibei?
Re: Solomani space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:02:48 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Daibei_&_Reavers=92s_Deep_Available=3F?=

You could try the Reaver's Deep supplement being released sometime next
month by Paul Sanders, who is also on this list.

"Being attacked in the House by him is like being savaged by a dead sheep."
Denis Healy, British politician, referring to the attack by Sir Geoffrey
Howe upon his budget proposals, in the Listener.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:44:34 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Web Pages Update

Warning: Shameless but Traveller plug:
I have finished re-organizing all my Web Pages, which include the 
Geonee Online Sourcebook and the Beyond the Extents PBEM Homepage. 
Changes are detailed in the "What's New?" entry on the main page, but 
they include finally removing all those pop-ups. All the pages should 
have now an active Geoguide instead.
Comments welcome!
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:20:49 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: Solomani space

I have some characters about to start exploring into the area Rimward of
the Solomani Rim.

I only know of these sector names:

Magyar		SolRim	Alpha Leonis

Canopus	Aldebaran	Neworld


Has anyone mapped anything below (rimward) of these? If so, I don't want
to duplicate work already done.

Also, if anyone has mapped Aldebaran, I'd appreciate knowing.

Jeff G.


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Nothing is miserable unless you think it so. (Boethius, 524 c.e. )

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:33:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Gods, afterall.

"Really. I should make you chicken soup with mazzo balls sometime, my dear
referee."

This is what a BRAND NEW, never before played girl player just said to me,
with no solicitation, whatsover.  Notice, I used the word "referee."

So kiss mine, detractors.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:02:52 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Starship turrets

>arrays as depicted in FF&S, AFAIK ships weapons would look nothing at all
>[like popular illustrations]

Certainly laser arrays should look more like big flat sheets (telescopes at
low TL) than long skinny barells. TNE's portrayal (like a plate on an 
articulared arm) might be a bit extreme. I could imagine a big plate recessed
into a spherical ball-type turret. It might not be able to shoot straight
forward if the ball turret was inset into the hull...Or maybe a more angular
turret that partially retracts for atmosphere flight?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:13:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Sorry, Guys...

...for the "kiss mine" comment.  Impulsive, I guess.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:25:52 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Magazines

A question for the list:

What would be a good size for the magazines on a 2000ton ship with one 50
ton missile bay?

Currently as it is designed it has 50 battery rounds of HE and 25 battery
rounds of nuclear.

The purpose of the ship is deep commerce raiding and hell raising behind
enemy lines.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:26:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >arrays as depicted in FF&S, AFAIK ships weapons would look nothing at all
> >[like popular illustrations]
> 
> Certainly laser arrays should look more like big flat sheets (telescopes at
> low TL) than long skinny barells. TNE's portrayal (like a plate on an
> articulared arm) might be a bit extreme. I could imagine a big plate recessed
> into a spherical ball-type turret. It might not be able to shoot straight
> forward if the ball turret was inset into the hull...Or maybe a more angular
> turret that partially retracts for atmosphere flight?
>

My take on it (a gif of which I'll post on my web site as soon as I get
my home system back together from an unexpected reformat and re-install
of everything) is along the lines of what Bruce is saying here...the
turret is a dome that clamshells open revealing the external laser
assembly, which looks a bit like the old Multiple Mirror Telescope
assembly...some hexagonal cells all put together on some sort of
pivoting frame. I took my cue somewhat from the TNE version of lasers. 

There's no need to streamline the laser assembly, it only fires in
vaccuum.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:45:29 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

In a message dated 2/16/99 8:24:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 KILLING characters before you even _start_ playing always seemed to me to be
 the ultimate in user-unfriendliness. 
 
 Sure it set it apart from other games...but that wasn't necessarily good. At
 least Paranoia is up front about it and tells you right off that you're going
 to be running Owen PlayerCharacter 7 before long... >>


	I guess you guys are right about all this, especially when it comes to
dealing with new players.   I liked it as a sort of customization feature (if
you don't like a character's stats,  roll up a belter or scout, and you won't
have to worry for long.) Now that I think about it, it does seems pretty
munchkin-like after all.  Sorry I brought it up.  ALthough maybe it could
still be an optional rule for use with experienced players who like the danger
and thrill.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:47:33 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Rob and all,

I also have access to Acrobat so if you can get the file to me I'll
convert them to .pdf for you. Hey, I'd just have to dl them anyway.

Mike

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
> >What would be a suitable format for putting the deckplans of a 5000T
> >exploratory trader on the web?
> >
> >GIF seems somewhat unsuitable. The easiest would be a zipped CC Artworks
> >file, but that might be a bit obscure for most people. :-)
> 
> True.
> >
> >(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
> > such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)
> 
> GIF would be the lowest common denominator, having GIF available would be
> nice.
> 
> I have Acrobat Exchange and PDFWriter, so I can make PDF files.
> <plug>That's how I made 101 Starships.</plug>
> 
> Dom Mooney had Acrobat as well, and has a better computer than me, so he
> can probably handle the PDFing better. Dom, would you be game?

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:48:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #148

Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:23:44 -0600, "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
>> Based on how trade is presented in Far Trader, I wouldn't call a
>> J3 trader a "trap".  I'm not saying you shouldn't have a J-3
>> trader, just that I wouldn't present it as a "tramp".  Maybe
>> call it a "small independant liner".

>"Tramp" is the correct technical term for a freighter that does not follow
>a preset route or schedule; one that does is called a "liner". Traveller
>has used "trader" and "merchant" (respectively) as synonyms, but not
>consistently.

Far Trader presents J-2 as the "standard", right?  So ships
of higher jump are getting into the high jump market which
is dominated by liners?  So I was thinking this type of ship would
indeed be designed for small liner companies, maybe ones with only
a few ships (though obviously PC may not be using it that way :-).
Such a ship would seem to be most commonly used by a shiping company
or as a specialize ship (in case you need something sent faster).
While the PCs may indeed use it at a "tramp", the name on the
design presumably indicates the common usage.

Calling it a "trader" or "mechant" would solve the problem.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:56:56 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Whoops, forgot this in my previous post.

Win98 format. Mostly Corel based graphic so I can handle conversions
from MOST vector formats and bitmap (I use version 6 so some of the very
latest might not work, but I'm willing to try anything!). Oh, and for a
small fee (about $2.00 U.S.) I'll write them to a cd for ya and mail it
out (conversion to .pdf free of course, with one proviso, I'd like to
offer to forward them to Bryan for inclusion in his HIWG CD... if he
wants them! and may be for "filler" for AAB if Clay wants them).

Mike


SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
> 
> >Dom Mooney had Acrobat as well, and has a better computer than me, so he
> >can probably handle the PDFing better. Dom, would you be game?
> 
> I don't see why not - OTOH  Mike Peters can generate PDFs - he may be using
> Windows?
> 
> Dom
> 
> ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
> "Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
> that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
> You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
> 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
> MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:01:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

> (I also think that religious people in general are WAY too sensitive about
> poking fun on their delusions)

Ooh!  Ooh!  What *he* said!!  (Bouncing up and down in agreement) :^)

> (Crawling into my heat resistant, flame retarding ball now.)

Hey, Anders!  Got room for two in there? :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:00:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: .pdf deckplans: I'll do it!

"Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net> wrote:

>I have the full Adobe Acrobat suite, and will cheerfully .pdf any deckplans
>(or other interesting documents) that anyone cares to send to me via my
>email address (listed below).
>
>I can read Illustrator, Photoshop, any of the various .gif, .jpeg etc
>formats. . .  If you're using anything obscure (and since I use a Macintosh,
>CC is obscure) email me and I'll let you know if I can handle it.

But at least you can get Rob Prior's software on a Mac ;-)

FWIW I can handle Acrobat (having Exchange), or Illustrator up to v7, or
Photoshop up to v4 and anything readable by them or Maclink plus 9.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:09:42 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

I've been playing with several "pictures" for deck plans and one of the
best looking is a ball with one or more slots drawn in it external, and
attached devices internal. I got the idea from the laser arrangement
shown in the movie "Real Genius". The laser fires into a couple of
reflecting mirrors and the final one (located in the rotating ball)
directs it to the target. It's, externally. compact and reasonably
stream lined.

Oh and Bruce, why wouldn't the laser be fired in atmoshere? It should be
powerful enough to overcome dispersement? Do you mean that all those
time my players fried people trying to stop thier lift off was wrong?

Mike
Bruce Johnson (Who was mostly cut out) wrote:
> 
> Bruce Alan Macintosh (somewhere among the snips) wrote:
> >
> I could imagine a big plate recessed
> > into a spherical ball-type turret. It might not be able to shoot straight
> > forward if the ball turret was inset into the hull...Or maybe a more angular
> > turret that partially retracts for atmosphere flight?


Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:31:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 2/14/99 4:10:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
> << He noted that after he got the permit, things changed a bit. Now he
>  sees the cop start following, and then the cop generally quits
>  following. 
>  
>  He figures that this is because when they run his plates, the concealed
>  carry permit comes up, and they decide that they've got better things
>  to do than bother somebody that they "know" has a gun. :-)
>   >>
>
> It's more likely that a citizen with a permit is (almost) always squeaky
> clean.

Well, here in Oregon you don't have to be "squeaky clean" to get a
permit. You have to take a course and pass about the same background
check it takes to *buy* a gun these days.

> The people I worried about stopping were the idiots with the illegal
> weapons under the car seat and/or in the glove compartment, which of
> course doesn't show up on the DMV computer and I then get a BIG
> surprise if I'm not careful...:-(.

Not fun. 

> My firearms instructor has a class III US federal automatic weapons
> permit and owns several submachine guns. I would LOVE to see the
> expression of the officer who runs his plate and sees the list of
> weapons on his license...:-).

A person I sort of know used to run around with a group in California
that did wargaming at all scales from 1:5000(?) naval miniatures up to
1:1 scale. Seem a lot of them werte collectors. For the 1:1 stuff
they'd drive their old gear out into the Mojave and play "Afrika Corps"
with real tanks and APCs....

Can you picture encountering their little "convoy" on the road and
running plate to find out they've got *live* weapons?

> OB Trav: a reason to keep your imperial weapons permits valid is to show good
> faith to the customs patrol so they are less likely to bust your balls during
> an inspection...

Aww. But that'd be the *smart* thing to do. How many players ever have
their characters act intelligently? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:40:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien Biology...

In mail you write:

> 3) Lets assume for a moment that the Krahz/Chk (the race) has backup
> genetic material, cellular repair mechanisms, and the ability to hunt
> down and neutralize free radicals in their own bodies - it seems to
> me the some unscrupulous people might want to get their hands on some
> of their blood/antibodies...

No real reason to. Sure, the mechanisms will be interesting. But they
won't likely be something you can "graft onto" another species. 

On the other hand, assuming that their atmosphere and nutritional needs
are fairly normal (ignoring the possibly higher levels of food), they
might be sought after (willingly or as slaves) to work in high rad
environments. 

For slaves, mining radioactives, or handling nuclear waste. As
employees, they'd be good for reactor maintenance, handling and
processing fissionables, etc.

After all, if you can cut down on the *interior* shielding required in
a plant, you can save a lot of money. Ditto if you've got workers that
don't have to be given extended leaves to keep their average dose
within limits. 

Note that for many of these jobs, they'll still need standard
*chemical* protective gear. A lot of nasty chemicals are involved in
processing both fissionables and nuclear waste. 

If you go the legal route, I *do* want to watch as you submit the
documentation to the Health & Safety Bureau regarding the safe exposure
levels for the species! Especially the part where you note that they
have what is in effect a minimum daily *requirement* for radiation, to
keep their defenses properly stimulated.

> 4) So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...what
> price do they pay?  Suggestions I've heard are high metabolism and
> short life span (which work well with my vision)) - what unique
> health risks does such a race have? What would happen if their immune
> system broke down? How would that be better/worse than a human immune
> system disorder?

Well, as noted above (and others have suggested) they might be
suspectible to various auto-immune disorders. They also may *need*
frequent radiation exposure to keep certain of their "defense"
mechanisms both working, and to from getting "carried away". That is,
too long without radiation and their defensive response might not
respond well to new exposure (rather like the way people kept isolated
from "normal" bacteria for long periods have a tendency to get sick
from darn near *everything* for a while once normal exposure is
restored). The "carried away" is based on a theory about some auto
immune disorders. If the immune system doesn't have enough to do, it so
to speak starts "looking harder" for things that are out of spec. And
the result is attacks on healthy tissue. 

BTW, given your comments about them being almost TL 12, I'll bet you a
cookie that either they kept using fission reactors on their ships long
after they had fusion, or they are using one of the "dirty" fusion
reactions. In either case, the reason would be so that they'd have a
steady radiation source for the crew to expose themselves to
periodicly. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:45:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien biology question (long)

It occurs to me that if the radiation is coming from off-planet
(frequent stellar flares, nearby neutron star accretion disk, whatever)
the underground life might have some "plants" that make *use* of the
hi-rad levels by "circulating" compounds that are both more likely to
"stop" radiation, and that having stopped it, tend to break into
compounds that energy can be derived from. 

Photosynthesis is more efficient, but given the rate at which I'd
expect chloroplasts to get ruined by radiation, a backup/supplement
would be good. 

So instead of "leaves", there'd be some sort of transparent tubes or
sheets, with a colored sludge moving thru them slowly. The tubes or
sheets would be made of something sturdy and not terribly susceptible
to radiation damage. Perhaps silica. A number of terran organisms
create silica structures. Diatoms, glass sponges, grass (the silica is
why the edges are so sharp!). 

The sludge would most be the waxy (waxes have a high capture cross
section for neutrons and protons), and contain lots of chlorplasts (the
bodies inside plant cells that actually carry out photosynthesis) as
well as some sort of cells/subcells that check for damage to the silica
shell, and patch/extend it as needed.

Once back inside the underground body, the sludge would be filtered (a
lot like blood passing through the liver in animals). Damaged
chloroplasts would be filtered out and broken down for recycling. The
free radicals would be harvested and used to create sugars or whatever
energy storage chemical the plant uses. The sugars created by the
chloroplasts would also be filtered out, along with the oxygen they
produced. CO2 would be added to replace that used in photosynthesis. 
And general chemical "grunge" from light or radiation induced reactions
would be filtered as waste or recycled into raw materials.

So in essence, you'd have a "plant" with at least a partial circulatory
system. Probably several. One for the photosynthesis sludge, another
for circulating "sap" to the rest of the plant. 

I think the circulating "sludge" would be more practical than any sort
of normal leaves, simply because the radiation damage to chloroplasts
and other structures would require them to be rebuilt at a rate that
would likely cost more energy than the circulation trick.

I can even suggest a way it might have evolved. You start with the
single cells living in a hot spring type environment where the water
bubbles up to the surface and sinks back in other places.

At first, the springs provide circulation. And cells would be carried
to the surface where food is easier to make, and sink to the bottom
were repairs are easier to make. 

Eventually, some cells learned to "deliberately" rise and sink as they
needed food or time to eat and repair. Then multicellular colonies
(sort of like slime molds?) evolved that had cells transiting between
the surface and the bottom. Finally, the body of the "slime" gets large
enough that it is circulating the body rather than circulating cells
thru water. 

At this stage, the spring isn't needed, just a deep hole with water.
And evolving a "cover" to prevent, or at least regulate, water loss is
likely. Bingo, you've got the distant ancestors of the plant. And at
this stage, it hasn't even had to develop differentiated cell types
yet!


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:10:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

I think it would be a good thing for generating dead NPC's.  If the
character you are generating gets killed, then maybe he is someone in your
character's background who died?  Take the character sheet and toss it aside
for later.  Players run up on a corpse.  Who was it?  Grab one of your
failed generations.  A forensics expert might be able to uncover (like
Sherlock Holmes) everything about him or her.  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:48:46 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: DONT POST STARSHIPS HERE...

At 09:42 16.02.99 +0000, you wrote:

>A minor point perhaps - but I would question the suitability of your
>message title.
>
>Perhaps "Please copy starship lists to Loren" would have been better.
>
I know, but when i wrote that mail, it was pretty late, but i wanted to
tell everyone that Loren doesnt read the list, so the requests get heard,
so the title was a little awkward, i admit.
>On the other hand, I wouldn't have read your message twice if you had.
>:-)
Oh, once would be quite enough... ;-)

Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:12:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question (long)

Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:41:22 -0500, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
David P. Summers writes:
>"You get multiple copies in the same cell.  So when the cell
>detects that one is damage, it just replicates a different
>strand to replace it."
>
>	The trick is identifying the one that is damaged, and
>	'knowing' what to repair it to. Our cells are clever
>	little machines, but I digress.

Direct radiation damage is pretty obvious.  The strand is
cut in two.  The base pair isn't a base pair anymore.  Two
strands have been crosslinked and can no longer be seperated...

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:15:41 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Michael Peters wrote:

> I've been playing with several "pictures" for deck plans and one of the
> best looking is a ball with one or more slots drawn in it external, and
> attached devices internal. I got the idea from the laser arrangement
> shown in the movie "Real Genius". The laser fires into a couple of
> reflecting mirrors and the final one (located in the rotating ball)
> directs it to the target. It's, externally. compact and reasonably
> stream lined.

That works fine for visible light lasers but what do you do with X-ray lasers?  And
then you get into the hokeyness of gravitic focusing, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:24:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Now what about Daibei?

Thanks to everyone who pointed me to Reaver's Deep material.

Any word on Daibei?  Has it ever been mapped or extensively developed?
If not, I'd like to try my hand at it.  Although, I'm beginning to think
that
Dark Nebula might be more interesting.

Apologies for not saving the consolidated sector info. posts
recently.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:25:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani space

Canopus      |   Aldebaran   |  Neworld
- --------------------------------------------
Don Brallin  |     Wysgar    |  Amaranth
- --------------------------------------------
Koffmall     | Chanus Sechts |  Nolandro

That's how it is on the biggest maps I've seen.  Is this canon?  I
don't know for sure.



- ---Jeff Groteboer <jeffg@ionstorm.com> wrote:
>
> I have some characters about to start exploring into the area
Rimward of
> the Solomani Rim.
> 
> I only know of these sector names:
> 
> Magyar		SolRim	Alpha Leonis
> 
> Canopus	Aldebaran	Neworld
> 
> 
> Has anyone mapped anything below (rimward) of these? If so, I don't
want
> to duplicate work already done.
> 
> Also, if anyone has mapped Aldebaran, I'd appreciate knowing.
> 
> Jeff G.
> 
> 
> THE LOCALIZER
> jeffg@ionstorm.com
> 
> Nothing is miserable unless you think it so. (Boethius, 524 c.e. )
> 
> 
> 

==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #153
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 16 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 154



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What's My Milieu? (was: T5 Questions)
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)
Re: What's My Mileau?
Re: >ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
re: Starship turrets
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Starships
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: What's My Mileau?
Re: T5 Questions
Re: A World without Death
Re: Objective Longitude
Re: Proving my point
Re: Proving my point
Off-Topic
Re: >ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
(MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:28:25 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: What's My Milieu? (was: T5 Questions)

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:40:41 -0500, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

>From:           	"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>>At 04:10 PM 2/15/99 EST, Marc wrote:

>>>Marc hasn't completely decided. He has mentioned circa 198 and Antares.

>>Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during Arbellatra's Regency.

>Lets all play "Whats my Milieu"

>Andrew hopes for the Solomani Rim during the Interstellar Wars :*>

Jeff likes the idea of the Claw Expansion period, but would
really get hot for lots of source material that _doesn't_ focus
on the Imperium at all.  Zhodani Core Expeditions, Solomani Rim
Expeditions, and the Aslan Diaspora are potentially
orgasm-inducing. :)

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:34:38 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

http://members.tripod.com/AD2300/Lang.htm


Check this page out. It has been a big help for many things. It shows the
relationships between language groups.
I use it for 2300, but it came from the Hero System.

Maybe that would help a bit for some people.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:46:07 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Theft on Aramis (Was: A World Without Death)

In a message dated 2/16/99 3:12:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Well, here in Oregon you don't have to be "squeaky clean" to get a
 permit. You have to take a course and pass about the same background
 check it takes to *buy* a gun these days. >>

Really? Does the state police do their own check, or do they use the FBI? In
Nevada; the state police does the check, and they're pretty good. If you have
any "hits"; you're nailed. Even though I'm an ex-cop; they still waited the
full 90 days to the day before I was issued mine (the backround check period
in NV), which I suppose is a good thing... This "hit" could be something as
simple as a current order of protection (lesson here if you plan on getting
divorced; this is becoming a major pain in the a-s, as the lawyers for both
parties regularly file the things regardless of justification, and it affects
a lot more things than a gun permit...). If Oregon is being too lax with their
backround checks (which I disagree with, but heck that's my opinion), complain
to the state police, and/or your congress critter...

Ob Trav: this is a great way for a ref to rein in recalcitrant PC's. "What do
you mean I'm under arrest for violating my ex-other's order of protection.
He/she's on the other side of the subsector for G-D's sake!", or "I'm sorry;
but your order for these small arms couldn't go through. I show a flag. It
seems that the  Royal Regina Constabulary has filed a fugitive warrent and a
request for extradition. Wait! Come back here!"

You get the picture...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:43:15 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Michael Peters wrote:
> 
> I've been playing with several "pictures" for deck plans and one of the
> best looking is a ball with one or more slots drawn in it external, and
> attached devices internal. I got the idea from the laser arrangement
> shown in the movie "Real Genius". The laser fires into a couple of
> reflecting mirrors and the final one (located in the rotating ball)
> directs it to the target. It's, externally. compact and reasonably
> stream lined.

Ok, if you have an X-ray mirror to bounce the laser off of. ;-)
 
> Oh and Bruce, why wouldn't the laser be fired in atmoshere? It should be
> powerful enough to overcome dispersement? 

I should have clarified...they probably can't be fired in atmosphere
when the ship is _moving_ at any great speed because the assembly is not
streamlined...wouldn't want to fire the thing and have the aiming
assembly warped so it hit your own ship...

Tonight or tomorrow morning, I'll post a link to a picture of the thing,
if I have a rendering of it, it'll make it clearer.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:00:37 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:40:41 -0500, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
(Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  Re: Ross Coburns comment a human culturally assimilated to Aslan norms -
>this came up in a discussion I had last year (after noticing the basis for
>it in AM:1), and I was wondering what mechanisms would be used to allow for
>the most obvious discrepancies between the two biologies.

>  Specifically, would the solution to the different gender birth ratios be
>cultural or genetic? Would they ignore it on the basis that Aslanized humans
>are fairly rare and just have (human) families within their clans where the
>males are over-supervised (except that this would leave potentially more
>breeding couples active, depending on how most Aslan families are organized).

>  OTOH, maybe the fact that the human males are Aslanized but simply lack
>the mass (and dewclaws) of biologically Aslan males could account for a
>certain amount of attrition - you only need to lose about half of them to
>get back to a 3:1 ratio.

My take on this is that the actual gender ratio is unimportant,
and that psychological assimilation is what is being referred to
here - especially as I recall (perhaps from the DGP module) a
comment to the effect that the first to properly assimilate were
Japanese.  If you think about the common knowledge of Japanese
culture, and what we know of Aslan culture, the Japanese start
out halfway there.

More to the point, I would imagine that the Zodian Clans (the
Aslan-assimilated Humans) might have two kinds of gender -
biological (i.e., which set of reproductive organs do you have?)
and social (i.e., what kind of job do you do?).  In all matters
not dealing _directly_ with reproduction, social gender would
normally be used - and I don't find it unlikely that they might
end up with a _social_ gender ratio of 3:1.

The Rite of Passage, IIRC, is not implied as being potentially
fatal - or at least not so that a significant portion can be
expected to die, any more than this can be expected of the Vulcan
Kahs-wan.  Certainly, it will be a strong test of those skills
and qualities most admired in an Aslan of the appropriate gender
(there are both male and female rites), but equally certainly it
would be counterproductive for a young, dynamic, expanding race
to deliberately impose a high attrition rate on its young -
unless the birthrate is so high that expansion can't keep up with
it (which is not implied to be the case).

The current translation of "ihatei" is "second son".  What's not
specified is whether we're talking second biological offspring,
or merely someone who is not in line to be the heir.  Let us
suppose that it is possible to say "A and B both passed the Rite,
but B did a better job of it." In that case, perhaps B, the
second son in birth order, might be named the heir, and the
disinherited A would now have some incentive to improve himself
and then go out and win lands for himself, and form his own clan.
Hence, a motivated ihatei (second son, in the sense that he will
not inherit).  Additionally, the new lands that A carves out for
himself represent more lands ultimately controlled by the Aslan
race - expansion and survival.

(It's a fascinating subject - maybe someday I'll work up a
detailed discussion of this for "publication".)
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:40:48 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: What's My Mileau?

In a message dated 2/16/99 1:47:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashock@gte.net
writes:

<< I would be just as happy seeing Mileau 0 continue; I don't feel all the
 possibilities of that setting were explored, and I think it's one of the
 more interesting Mileau's out there. Other than that, year 50 and the
 exploration and colonization of the Spinward Marches would be my choice.
  >>

	I agree with this.  Basically, I would like to see a Mileau where there are
significant non-Imperial areas close at hand.   I like the interaction between
Imperium and Pocket Empires, it gives a wide range for opposition.   A mileau
detailing the Old Earth Union's  struggle with the Aslan would be interesting.
A Splinter State of the Second Imperium during Dusk would be very interesting
as well.   
	I see one problem with the interstellar wars idea, the sweeping clash of
large battle fleets makes free-trading rather risky.  I also don't see the
Terran Confederation allowing shipyard resources being allocated to the small
commercial vessels typical to a Traveller campaign.

		Dave Nelson 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:44:05 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: >ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

Dear Folks -

Bruce wrote:
>Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
>people playing one in my MT Refs guide!

If you are thinking of the Danforth illo, look closely - they are playing
Traveller.  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:46:50 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Starship turrets

> I've been playing with several "pictures" for deck plans and one of the
> best looking is a ball with one or more slots drawn in it external, and
> attached devices internal. I got the idea from the laser arrangement
> shown in the movie "Real Genius". The laser fires into a couple of
> reflecting mirrors and the final one (located in the rotating ball)
> directs it to the target. It's, externally. compact and reasonably
> stream lined.

One subtle issue is that the last mirror (the one that does the beam 
directing) has to be the big one (ie the mirror whose diameter defines
the laser's range.)

>That works fine for visible light lasers but what do you do with X-ray >lasers?
Presumably at TL-13, there are x-ray mirrors that work like visible-light
mirrors do today (I assume their absence is one factor that limits x-ray
lasers to TL-13, for that matter.)
>And then you get into the hokeyness of gravitic focusing, etc.
The grav focus mechanism probably I would picture as something mounted
in a central hole in the primary launch aperture of the laser - or even
(since gravity waves can mostly pass through matter) the grav modules 
that make the focussing pulse are located behind the main launch aperture/
mirror.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:48:58 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

In a message dated 2/16/99 3:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jwwebb@earthlink.net writes:

<< 
 What languages were spoken would depend on who was in power.  The people in
 power direct the goverment, control business/wealth, and decide on what arts
 flourish.
  >>

	On the other hand, sometimes sheer stubborness and obstinacy overcomes alot.
Example, English remaining a basically a Germanic language in the face of
French nobility and Latin church.  And this is not just a case of numbers,
compare the repalcement of Gaulish with Latin in what is now France, over a
similar period of time with a similar ratio of elite speakers to native
populace.
	So, if the Scandanavians "decided" that they would maintain their language(s)
as separate entities now matter what the Germans did, perhaps they could.  If
everyone were amicable, the creation of a brand new language would be more
probable.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:57:50 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

At 08:52 16-2-99 -0600, Christopher Thrash wrote:
>	Medium freighter (1000 dTon range) (3)
>		CT Cargo Carrier (Oberlindes Lines)
>		TI Frontier Transport (Imperiallines) [2]

Hmmm....  How about the TI, with a second set of plans showing the
difference between it and the TJ?


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:31:53 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>
>My last sustained campaign ended when one of the characters (the ship's
>steward) fiance (the ship's pilot) died in a mugging. 
>It was quite a shock to the system.
>
>Dom
>
>(*) The player had other commitments and wanted out of the game, so we
>planned this out some time before.


The best character deaths are in three ways.
Pre-arranged (as you did, Dom), heroic selfless giving of a life to save 
others, and the quick fatal response to an incredibly stupid act...
:)
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:38:33 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: What's My Mileau?

> I would be just as happy seeing Mileau 0 continue; I don't feel all the
> possibilities of that setting were explored, and I think it's one of the
> more interesting Mileau's out there. Other than that, year 50 and the
> exploration and colonization of the Spinward Marches would be my choice.

I like this idea better.  I am running a year 50 campaign in the 
Gushemege Sector.  There is still a lot of information that could be 
produced for this setting.  

I doubt very seriously I would scrub a campaign for which I have 
invested a couple of hundred dollars (I have practically all the books 
for this setting) unless it would add to what I already have ... not 
make it history.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:06:09 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

The best SAEP for T5 would be the Regency in 1202, seeing how this never went
anywhere, due to GDW kicking the bucket.  Next, possibly another pocket empire
("YOUR Pocket Empire") in the New Era.  Other than that (and I've got a good
idea how popular that is, here), i'd most like to see the Rule of Man.  An
integral and very neglected area of Traveller history.  Mick Bailey's
"Emperor's of the Rule of Man" could be just the icing on the cake, if it was
done well.  A better alternative than the Interstellar Wars IMO (lacks the
uncertaintity and passions about the recent future, certainly).  Lastly, i'd
like to see the Antares area, particularly around Gashikan.  Spinward Marches
has been done to death (at least one time for every edition, it seems).
Solomani Rim is getting covered by G:T (for the 4th time if you count Children
of Earth).

I really hope T5 has some kind of guiding hand (Marc's?) behind it.  T4 was
just a collection of disparate farmed out material.  Even aside from the
abysmal production quality, it's obvious there was no overriding theme and/ or
controlling authority behind it.  This is completely aside from the
canon/Traveller-writers-guide that should be at the left hand of anyone
writing anything for T5.  Course, a good way to avoid the need for this is to
go somewhere where the previously published material *could* be useful, but
doesn't *have* (or anymore than anything "has" to) to be: like the Ancients,
the New Era, or the Far Future.   : )


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:06:07 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A World without Death

> >Normal T4 combat is deadly, and doesn't have the risk of running out of AP
> >to react that ACQ has. My players had a healthy aversion to firearms (and
> >as crew of a merchant ship sacked a colleague who insisted in waving a
> >snub-auto around and threatening people).
> 
> TNE combat is not by far as deadly, but after only a few sessions my players
> are really starting to avoid combats as far as they can. And their hired
> as mercenaries to perform a smash and grab pre-strike mission. They have
> only low power weapons and have noticed that the TED on thsi world has
> some seroius fire power, so they are moving very slowly and considering
> their moves very carefully.

My group was gung-ho on the first TNE (and Traveller) adventure I ever ran,
many moons ago.  Party of 5 Ex-Dawn League Marines.  They got ambushed by a
machine gun nest (TL5 7mm MMG).  Poor lil Javier "Loser" Jackowski (STR 9, AGL
8, CON 9) took a slug in the head (outstanding success doubled 20 damage to
40, which is a serious wound).  He was also knocked down and stunned.  (Though
automatically unconcious, renders that moot).  To top it off, I was using the
optional Instant Kill-Quick kill, but out of generosity to the player, decided
it was the number of dice instead of points (as i'd ruled earlier when they
asked).  Unfortunately, I rolled a 3, I remember (DV of 7mm MMG-5 ball is 4).
RIP "Loser" Jackowski (1172-1201).  His buddy, Ivan "Bad Ass" Taboko (STR A,
AGL 7, CON B) took 2 to the chest and 1 to the arm (scratch, scratch, slight
IIRC).   He was knocked down, as well,  stunned, and would have had -1 to
initiative if he didn't fail the 2nd roll on Quick Kill.  RIP "Bad Ass"
(1168-1201).  Another character (Arthur Edmund "Eddie" Jones; 1172-1201) ate
it the next round (they threw a grenade in, but it bounced out.  The last 2
decided they'd had enough, as they had no cover and decided they weren't going
to get shot in the back, so they just charged the nest and got one (Dick
Kabuki... this guy can't think up names, so he just took one out of the TNE
book IIRC) gunned down (a bunch of chest and head hits IIRC... ironically, the
same thing happened in AD&D when his dwarven warrior charged a bunch of orc
archers.  That still makes us laugh).  The last guy gets in there ok, and pops
the machine gunner (or the A-gunner, as it turns out), to note there's another
guy in there (and the gunner they'd apparently killed before) w/ a 7mm assault
rifle trained on him.  Opportunity fire.  Jorge "Big Boy" Washington bit it.

The second adventure, 3 of the 5 new characters (in the "civilian" campaign)
get killed by TL5 gang members w/ 5mm revolvers (DV -1!) and an SMG (DV 2).
That's when I decided Install Kill-Quick Kill had to go, so i went to d10
damage and double damage quick kill.  (Though i later adopted T2k (?) quick
kill, moving damage level up to serious).  

Then I discovered the TML, where I hear TNE combat isn't fatal enough.  LOL.
My players were ok w/ the first one, but the second incident made them voice
going back to Star Wars, before I assured them they had just been unlucky.

For my upcoming campaigns, I've been contemplating going to double damage for
short range (as I found someone's nice summary on the TNE directory of the
missouri archive).  I'm not sure, though... my games have had alot of
fatalities, as is.  More than their share, it seems...

> After my players saw a display of some surface to surface missiles
> from the local TED, their going to stay away from combat until it
> is unavoidable. The sight of armed people really makes them nervous.

I know what you mean!  The campaigns evolved, naturally, with them getting a
better grasp of small unit tactics (none are Marines, like me, though I used
alot of my books & stuff from the School of Infantry in making up RC Tactical
Circulars).  Still, by the time, they (the military characters) were in combat
armor and battle dress, they were running into Crunch Guns, High-Energy
weapons and armored fighting vehicles and a Vampire Hiver Bruiser (what they
dubbed "The Roper").  Ah, those were the days.  : )


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:06:02 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Objective Longitude

> No world is a perfect sphere (if it is, that's an adventure hook in
> itself). Variations in the shape (actually, the gravitational potential
> field, which isn't necessarily the same thing) are mapped using geodesy,
> from the errors they introduce into a nominal ("perfect") orbit. This is a
> powerful technique even at our tech level, and likely to be a standard part
> of any survey.
> 
> The results are expressed in the form of spherical harmonics, using Fourier
> transforms to break a complex pattern into a series of overlaid simpler
> waveforms. Some of these waveforms are longitudinally-based (I can't
> remember offhand whether those are the sine terms, the cosine terms, or one
> of the cross-terms). Pick the longitude line that is the mathematical
> minimum of the first (largest) longitudinal term, and call it the "survey
> meridian".

Wow.  Now *that's* what I was looking for when i asked the question.  Thanks
alot!  So how long would that take?  Covered by the normal "mapping" rules?
(In World Tamers Handbook, it's D6 * UWP size digit).

> This has the additional advantage, at least on Earth-like worlds, that
> since the oceans have the thinnest crust, and thus the greatest
> gravitational potential (for absolute height above the Earth's center), the
> survey meridian falls opposite the emptiest part of the largest ocean. On
> Earth, this is the middle of the Pacific Ocean -- near the International
> Date Line -- and thus the survey meridian falls very close to Greenwich.

What a happy coincidence. : )

> The survey meridian and the calculations that support it will be stable
> over geologic time, and so pretty good for historical purposes. As Leonard
> notes, the planet itself isn't all that stable on the order of millions of
> years.

Ok.  I've taken enough geology to expect that.  But hundreds of thousands?
Say 200,000? : )


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:16:58 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

>> 
>
>I agree. However, we referees are more like the Apollo god in one of the old
>Star Trek episodes. If nobody worships us, we fade away. Meaning: without
>players, we're no good, so we better not piss them off.
>
>> (I also think that religious people in general are WAY too sensitive about
>> poking fun on their delusions)

I've always considered myself a god (small "g") in "my world". Then 
again, as you said, "My world" would get really boring if no players 
were it it...
:)
(You know, the characters don't even have to tithe!)
<bg>
Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:29:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Proving my point

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:37:39 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:

> >>
> >> Actually, Clif has been proving my point all the while. He said the GM
> >> is the "god" of the game. I said it was a bad analogy and most GMs who
> >> refer to themselves as "gods" have delusions of grandeur.
> 
> I create the universe, I setup the laws of nature, I give my people free
> will unless overruled by me, my players worship me and give me gifts to
> keep me in a happy ie I'm a God.
> 
> (I also think that religious people in general are WAY too sensitive about
> poking fun on their delusions)

I haven't posted in many, many months now (been very busy with other
projects), and specifically stayed out of this particular thread topic
because it was potentially prone to violent flaming.  But...



Anders, are you referring to someone with religious beliefs as being
"delusional" with regards to *those* beliefs?  If so, your remark is
prejudicial and in *very* bad taste.  Those types of remarks are better
left off of the list.



That being said, the term "god" (note the lowercase use to describe a
"godlike" being, and not "God" per se) is still a lot closer to fitting the
job and/or purpose of a Game Master than a CEO, etc., due to the additional
things a "god" has power over (for instance, a CEO cannot change legal law,
under which the company must abide by).

However, there are a lot of things that a "god" (or "God") can do that no
Game Master could ever hope to imagine.  If the term "god" translates into
a being with *unlimited* power (as I have been led to believe by following
this thread), some examples might include:

1) Dictating (with 100% control) the actions of a Player Character.  Sure,
   a referee can boot the player out and turn the PC into an NPC, but that
   does not change the fact that a GM *cannot* dictate everything a *PC*
   does, since by definition, the character is no longer a PC.
2) Adding to example #1, it may be possible that such a GM decides to kick
   *all* of his/her players out of the game in order to maintain that true
   100.00% control over every being in the game universe.  While there is
   nothing that can be done to stop the GM from doing this, the "delusions
   of grandeur" thing suddenly rears its ugly head.  This is an RPG,
   remember, and by definition needs at least one player and one GM.
3) Make effortless decisions and/or changes that effect the past history of
   the game universe.  While there is a difference between Real World time
   and the game universe clock, a slight change in the past will have
   countless unforseen consequences that will take a mortal GM months or
   even years to sort out.  Remember, the main point of an RPG is to spend
   your time actually playing it, not engineering it.
4) Combining examples #1 & #3, no GM can predict the future of a campaign
   down to the position of the last atom without resorting to example #2.
   In other words, no mortal GM could ever hope to possess the ability to
   quickly and easily traverse temporal reality.  A true "god" does not
   exist inside time, and a mortal claiming to represent one simply does
   not have enough time during their lifetime to pull this off.
5) Changing physical laws and be prepared for the consequences.  If you
   decide that zero centigrade is no longer the freezing point of water, or
   something as simple as 1+1=3, you have created a domino affect effecting
   countless billions of other variables in the universe.  No mortal human
   being (in the role of a GM) could possibly fathom all of the changes
   that might go along with the initial change.
6) Know *everything*.  While you are free to apply example #5 to a
   situation where, say, a player in the game happens to know more about
   chemical rockets than you do (let's say you are forced to change the
   efficiency at which the chemical reaction takes place to provide a power
   increase 100x greater in order to remain 100.00% in control of your game
   universe), you have failed to inform your PCs and NPCs to take this into
   account.  PCs and NPCs (unless just recently born) have been exposed to
   such changes all their lives.  It therefore should not come as a shock
   to the player that things are not as they assumed they would be.  You
   have created confusion where there should be none.

The above examples help to show that no mortal human being in the role of
Game Master could ever hope to be compared to a "god".  If any of the above
examples happen to crop up in a particular campaign, it is likely that the
person playing the GM is suffering from "delusions of grandeur".  Let's
just say that the definition comes pretty close and leave it at that.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:34:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Off-Topic

I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should be
a perfume for females.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:51:09 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: >ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Bruce wrote:
> >Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
> >people playing one in my MT Refs guide!
> 
> If you are thinking of the Danforth illo, look closely - they are playing
> Traveller.  ;-)

That is _exactly_ the kind of infinite regress to which I referred.  I
am playing Traveller.  My Traveller character plays Traveller.  My
Traveller character's Traveller character plays Traveller.... (et cetera
ad infinitum).

I would suppose, then, that the Traveller milieu played by Travller
characters would find analogies in current (late 20th century Earth)
RPGs.  Using Milieu 1110 as an example baseline, we might find the
following analogies:

CT:  "Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes", "CORPS", or other "modern"
games

MT:  "Twilight: 2000" or White Wolf's "World of Darkness" RPGs

TNE: "Twilight: 2000" or "The Morrow Project"

T4:  "Boot Hill" or other "historical" RPGs


<<snip sig>>

- -- 
     *o*o*o*     ooooooooooo
    o       o   o           o
    *       *    ooooooooooo
     o*o*o*o  

           B E A D S
 
 O      O    O     O     O  O
    O     O O   O    O O  O   O
             
             A N D

       D O U B L O O N S

       HAPPY MARDI GRAS!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:04:06 -0500
From: kurt@blazenet.net (Kurt Feltenberger) (by way of Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>)
Subject: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

This is the first design that I've done in a long time (and the first
posted).  Comments welcome!

Kurt

<|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|><|>

Susquehanna Class Frigate 
CraftID:    Susquehanna Class Frigate, TL 16, Mcr. 1983.31 
Hull:    134/334, Disp=2000tons, Config=Needle/WedgeSL, Armor=52G 
Unloaded=27993 tons,  Loaded=29234 tons 
Power:    81/162, Primary Fusion=17446Mw, Duration=28 days 
Secondary Fusion=7955Mw, Consumption=3.8 Kl/Hr. 
Loco:    15/29, Manuver=4G, 8/16, Jump=5, 
NOE=200kph, Cruise=2550kph, Top=3400kph, Agility=0 
Commo:    Radio=System, LaserComm=System, Maser=System 
Sensors:    ActEMS=Far Orbit, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, EMSJammer=Far Orbit 
HiPen=25km, Neutrino=10kw 
ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine 
PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine 
PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine 
Off:    Beamlaser=xx4, Missile=xA0 
     batt=0010    batt=010     
     bear=0010    bear=010     
(10 triple laser turrets, each foring independently, one 50ton missile bay)
Def:    DefDM +10, Nuclear Damper=1 
Control:Computer=10/fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic Linked x66 
Special=HeadsUpHolo x10, Special=LargeHoloDisp x4 
Basic Env, Basic LS, Ext LS, Air Locks x 12, Grav Plates, Inertial Comp 
Accomm:    Crew=10 (Bridge=2, Engineering=2, Gunners=3,  
Troops=8, Medical=1, Command=2) 
Lg. Stateroomsx18, Sick Bay x 1,  
Gymnasium x 1, Electronics Shop x 1 
SubCraft=Gig (20 Ton)x2, Air/Raft (enclosed)x1 
Other:    Cargo=283.5 (21 tons), Fuel=13682.72 kl. 
ObjSize=Large, EmLevel1=Faint, EM Level2=F 


Produced by GsbAG in orbit around Vincennes, the first of the Susquehanna class
Frigates was launched on 345-1119 and formally commissioned INS Susquehanna on
167-1120 after a flawless shakedown cruise.

The design request called for a ship that could penetrate deeply into an
enemys rear area and raid civilian merchant shipping of up to several kilotons
displacement, but whose true prey would be the small merchant, generally
operating sub-600dton ships.  The purpose of this would be to erode the
publics perception that they were in a safe area and to disrupt the flow of
shipping by drawing resources from other areas and forcing the small ships to
convoy for their own protection.

While this might seem like a waste of Imperial resources, picking on the small
merchants, the ability to spread fear and uncertainty among the civilian
populace and divert naval resources from other fronts and duties to protect
small merchants, who by nature are individualists and prefer to go their own
way, would actually be worth much more than the initial costs for the
Susquehannas would imply.

A secondary purpose, and one not mentioned outside of closed rooms, is that of
intelligence gathering and the covert insertion of direct action forces.  Able
to berth 8 Marines in individual large staterooms, or 16 with double occupancy,
the Susquehanna has a unique ability with her Jump-5 capability of appearing
and launching a lightning raid using her two gunned gigs for transport and
support.

Originally intended for operations against the Zhodani, Sword Worlds, or other
small human polities along the periphery of the Domain of Deneb, the
Susquehannas have proven quite effective against the Vargr along the Coreward
frontier.  Captain Dmitri Ridiima has gained a reputation with INS Olympia of
out Vargring the Vargr at their own game of hit and run.  Racking up an
impressive score of twenty three kills or captures, over 10,000dtons of
shipping, he has begun to gain a following among the younger Vargr of Olympias
patrol zone as they see Ridiima as a charismatic crusader who has never known
defeat.  Of course his family produces a Top-10 syndicated series dramatizing
his exploits might also factor into his extraordinary charisma among the Vargr.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #154
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 17 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 155



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A World without Death
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic Perfume
Re: Starships
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: What's My Mileau?
Re: Objective Longitude
Re: Alien Biology
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Daibei Sector Online
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 
Re: Proving my point
re: .pdf deckplans: I'll do it!
Fifth Frontier War Sale
Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re:  Sorry, Guys...
re: Starships
re: Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Sorry, Guys...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:18:00 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: A World without Death

Dear Folks -

Gary wrote:
>...they were running into
[snip various expected TED trinkets]
>...and a Vampire Hiver Bruiser (what they dubbed "The Roper").
>  Ah, those were the days.  : )

You ran them into WHAT??!!! And they SURVIVED!!??
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:25:31 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

It'd certainly work for me, especially if she was good lookin' and could
shoot well :)
Jesse



>I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should be
>a perfume for females.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:25:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Off-Topic Perfume

Dear Folks -

Clif wrote:
>I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder
>should be a perfume for females.

It probably is...

...but only in "Macho Women With Guns".

;-)

 - Hyphen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:30:27 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

>Please send me your top ten (or however many) nominations for what ships
>you would like to see GT Starships deal with.

Space craft are one of my favorite aspects of Traveller, and IMHO there has
yet to be a really good book of starships. Most of the previous books, like
IG's Starships and GDW's FSotSI, were full of poorly-designed military
craft. Typical referees could design better ships themselves, and had to,
because the ships in these books were not appropriate for most campaigns.

What I want are highly-optimised designs with complete background
information for ships players would encounter often in a campaign. I would
rather the book contain 3 *good* designs than 10 average designs.

By "highly-optimised" I mean that the designs take advantage of the
complete design rules and be extremely difficult to improve. Gearheads
should be able to use these designs as examples of the "right" way to
design GURPS Traveller starships.

By "complete background information" I mean that it includes information a
referee needs to run the ship in a campaign. At minimum, this would include
an illustration, full description of crew and carried vehicles, and
complete operations cost. I should know how much it costs to build, staff,
and operate the vessel.

The last request I have is to at least make the attempt to provide some
scientific rationale to the designs. I know this is a science *fiction*
game, but providing designs somewhat more plausible than WWII battleships
in space would be desirable. My pet peeves are decks parallel to the thrust
axis and hatches on the floor directly in front of doors.

Well, with that preamble out of the way; my top 10 list:

10. An asteroid ship. Probably not a great design, but these things are
canon and provide a very atmospheric setting.

9. Some kind of retro TL 9/10 ship. Traveller has had spacefaring
civilizations for thousands of years and some of those old designs must
still be in use. I envision an ancient TL 9 design retrofitted with TL 10
gravitics and power plants.

8. A large passenger liner with things like restaraunts, clubs, shopping,
and staterooms large enough for a family to stay in comfortably for weeks.
Most of the "passenger" designs in Traveller are reminiscent of prisons.

7. A battle tender. These are supposed to be the mainstay of the Imperial
fleet, yet the only good designs were in the game Battle Rider.

6. A battle rider. This thing should have multiple parallel spinal mounts,
high acceleration, and absurd amounts of armor. Naval doctrine says riders
can outfight battleships; so prove it.

5. A patrol cruiser. This should be a multi-purpose vessel with lots of
player-friendly features.

4. A large bulk hauler. Presumably one of the most common ships in space,
but you'd never know this from the few designs that have been published. We
need to know the operational costs for one of these things in order to
determine fair shipping rates, and what the free traders are competing
with. Actually, I think TNE had a good design for one.

3. A shuttle or lander. Another common type of ship which players
encounter. The design should be simple, but we need deck plans.

2. An effective system defense boat. Most of the SDB designs I have seen
are so poorly armored that civilian weapons can damage them. It should also
be carryable by a battle tender.

1. A highport. This is an important setting in Traveller which players
encounter constantly and has, to my knowledge, never had a good design
published. I saw an "authorized" design once which was barely large enough
to hold the crew and cargo of a subsidized trader. These things are
supposed to be able to drydock battle tenders!


- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:37:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

What do you think of Ms. Parker on "the Pretender", Saturday nights?  She's
a stunt woman and an IPSC competitor in real life.  She probably smells like
powder, often.


>It'd certainly work for me, especially if she was good lookin' and could
>shoot well :)
>Jesse


>>I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should
be
>>a perfume for females.
>>
>>--Clif


ObTrav:  Use celebrity graphics to describe characters.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:51:28 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Clif wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should be
> a perfume for females.
> 
> --Clif

Just you, Clif.

I enjoy the company of women who can take care of themselves.  However,
the smell of burnt powder often accompanies situations that have gone to
Fort Polk in a handbasket.  I hardly find such a situation...inspiring,
in the romantic sense.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:08:10 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Haven't seen the show but once, so I don't remember her.  <pops onto the
'net real quick>  YOW!!  Gulp....May I hand you another magazine for your
.45 Miss Parker?

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Off-Topic


>What do you think of Ms. Parker on "the Pretender", Saturday nights?  She's
>a stunt woman and an IPSC competitor in real life.  She probably smells
like
>powder, often.
>
>
>>It'd certainly work for me, especially if she was good lookin' and could
>>shoot well :)
>>Jesse
>
>
>>>I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should
>be
>>>a perfume for females.
>>>
>>>--Clif
>
>
>ObTrav:  Use celebrity graphics to describe characters.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:12:30 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

At 10:34 PM 2/16/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks burnt gun-powder should be
>a perfume for females.
>

Clif,

You need to get out more.


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:26:39 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

>It'd certainly work for me, especially if she was good lookin' and could
>shoot well :)
>Jesse


Word of advice:  Good looking is okay, but you should always prefer your
women with little or no firearm skill.  Seen one to many men saved by the
fact that women didn't know how to get the safety off.

:)
TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:28:49 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@texed.net>
Subject: Re: What's My Mileau?

I have always had a weakness for the End of the Long Night.

TV

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:45:50 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Objective Longitude

> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:06:02 EST
> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Objective Longitude
> 

[discussion of spherical harmonics deleted]

> Wow.  Now *that's* what I was looking for when i asked the question. 
Thanks
> alot!  So how long would that take?  Covered by the normal "mapping"
rules?
> (In World Tamers Handbook, it's D6 * UWP size digit).
> 

D6 * UWP size _what_? Days -- certainly. Hours -- probably. 

What it really takes is a number of orbits. Three or four complete orbits
are enough to establish the planet's baseline gravitation (G*M) with
accuracy. Then you can go looking for more subtle effects. The lower the
orbit and the more passes you make, the finer the resolution. But for just
the J1 term (I think that's what it is -- I still don't have my geodesy
notes to consult) it wouldn't take more than a dozen passes or so -- that's
one of the first after the baseline G*M term. Say, 18-24 hours for a
typical low orbit around the Earth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:13:38 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Alien Biology

Here are my two cents on it :


> Walter Smith wrote:
>
> Since they're a spacefaring race, the question will come up: what happens
> to them when they're not in their cozy high-rad environment?
>
> Remember, this planet is home to them - they're comfortable there.

I would not say "comfortable" but adapted. IIRC, when i received some lessons of Ecology two years ago, i was told that there was an
island where an endemic bird species had been wiped off (can't remembar what eliminated them from the island) and then they found that
other bird species there were more fertile (in fact, that almost proved that they were not growing as much as they could, because some
external factor i.e. the devastated bird species, was making some selective pressure over them, direct or not).

I guess living in an highly irradiated world is no joke, no matter how does that species manage to live there. Sure they can manage to
live there, but if they were given the chance to live in less hard conditions, they would "improve" some of their species features :
better fertility, longer life, larger populations...--
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:35:51 -0800
From: The Woodlands <woodland@pacificcoast.net>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:22:39 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
>
>AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>         I must say I missed having the "Survival Roll" from Classic 
>> Traveller being really a survival roll and not just an injury roll.  

I don't miss it because I still have and play the Classic Traveller rules.
I never moved past them to newer rules.

>> Does anyone else like the risk of death in character generation?  I 
>>always found it to be a neat, unique feature of the game, that sort of set 
>>it apart.

Actually, this is one of the things about Traveller character generation
that I love.  Most of my players have liked it too.  The whole idea took on
a form of roleplay in itself.

>Well, I'll have to take the other tack...ever get a complete newbie 90%
>through character generation, have 'em miss one roll and tell them...
>
>"Oh well, start over, that one died..." 
>
>They say "Oh well, that's over, lets go play D&D some more. This Traveller 
>is >a STUPID game."
>
>KILLING characters before you even _start_ playing always seemed to me to 
>be >the ultimate in user-unfriendliness. 

I disagree.  This is an integral part of the character generation process.
If you roll a character with an inital STR: of 2, stick him in the Belters
so that he can get killed off.  If unlucky enough to survive a few terms,
start trying for +1 Str on the Personal Development Table.  It's always a
riot.  I think that players love rolling up characters as much as playing.


Jon and Beth Woodland
woodland@pacificcoast.net
Visit Red 24's Home Page at http://www.pacificcoast.net/~woodland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:32:28 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Daibei Sector Online

The Daibei Sector, circa 1119 is located at

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/DaibeiCT/DaibeiCT.html

on Derek Stanleys site.  It is not yet complete, all the subsector maps
seem to be up but some subsectors don't have UPP's yet.  He has some
nice stuff up here and at his home site at

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Check it out.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:38:03 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

The Survivor's First Rule of Combat (one of millions) -
Never forget your weapon was made by the *lowest* bidder!

Members of the Armed Forces, of many nations, have discovered over the years
that a certain amount of, ah, improvisation and doing things "not allowed"
by the manufacturers can add to the life expectancy - of the person, not
necessarily the kit!  (Nb; this is not to be taken to mean they all do it,
or that it will always work, or that you can make a coupla' dozen cardboard
boxes into a working tank.

BTW, smallest fibre-optic coil seen to date was approx 4 inches/10cm across
and about 50m long when unrolled (2mm dia across the outer sleeve), weighing
about the same as an empty plastic coffee cup.  Cost unknown, but it was for
use in a Computer Room, so probably astronomical 8).

Jeff.

(The Survivor's First Rule of Combat (two of millions) -
Priorities are Sentient-made, not Deity-made.


- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 15 February 1999 04:10 AM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons
<SNIP>


> And if it's a weapon
>system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
>semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
>One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
>vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
>morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.


<SNIP>


ps; what works in the nice, clean environment of a Design or Drawing Room
can turn out to be not *quite* as good in the field.  Or even when building
the things in the first place... ("What's the problem? The holes in the
frames are more than wide enough for the wires!"  :Yeah, but what about this
fifty-pin plug on the end??"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:58:08 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

At 23:04 16/02/1999 -0500, kurt@blazenet.net (Kurt Feltenberger) wrote:
>This is the first design that I've done in a long time (and the first
>posted).  Comments welcome!

>Susquehanna Class Frigate 

<snip design>

I'm not good on reading MT design sheets, so please make allowances if I
missunderstand something.

There don't appear to be any fuel scoops or a purification plant.

For a deep penetration raider to be able to use jump-5, it needs at
least enough fuel for jump-5 followed by jump-1 *without* refuelling
(just in case its destination isn't safe.)

The cargo space seems too low at 1%.

Without supplies, missile bays aren't ideal weapons and your independent
laser turrets are going to take some time chewing up 600std merchants
that aren't worth a missile salvo.
On that subject, if you have 10 turrets firing independently and one
bay, don't you need more than 3 gunners?

Tech 16? In whose Y1119 navy?

If you are just going after merchants, consider a carrier - even the
standard Imperial Heavy Fighter can make a mess of 600std merchants
and the risk to your carrier is quite low.

Fighters also allow you to be in several places at the same time,
so you can hit several merchants in the system and leave before
anyone can react. However a bunch of fighters is expensive.

Its an interesting design with an achievable mission.

<Free Trader rant>

The real problem with designs like this is that when we
use them on the Vargr, they just give the Vargr ideas.

When the Vargr version turns up, its not going to attack the Navy
or GasBag it going to attack ME! And how much compensation do you
think I'm going to get from GasBag?

</Free Tarder Rant>
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:05:10 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Proving my point

Is it me, or do we really keep going in circles on this one?

<<candle on>>
I'd rather spend my time reading postings directly related to Traveller in
all its incarnations than what seems to often degenerate into a catfight.
As someone else observed, some of the replies seem to arrive before the
original comments which, IMHO, is resulting in a lot of wasted bandwidth.
<<candle off>>

Not to say that some of the postings on this topic are not amusing, but I've
only got a slow machine and it takes a while to delete them all!

Do Unto Others As They Would do Unto You - But Do It First!

Jeff

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:21:34 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: .pdf deckplans: I'll do it!

At 23:00 16/02/1999 +0000, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>"Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net> wrote:
>
>>I have the full Adobe Acrobat suite, and will cheerfully .pdf any deckplans
>>(or other interesting documents) that anyone cares to send to me via my
>>email address (listed below).
>>
>>I can read Illustrator, Photoshop, any of the various .gif, .jpeg etc
>>formats. . .  If you're using anything obscure (and since I use a Macintosh,
>>CC is obscure) email me and I'll let you know if I can handle it.
>
>But at least you can get Rob Prior's software on a Mac ;-)
>
>FWIW I can handle Acrobat (having Exchange), or Illustrator up to v7, or
>Photoshop up to v4 and anything readable by them or Maclink plus 9.

CC is Computer Concepts, their Artworks package was released for the
PC as Corel Xara.

I'm going to try the ghostscript/PDF option. I really need something
better than floppy disks to shift stuff between computers - even zipped
the EPS files take 3 full disks.

Hopefully I'll put this on the web on Saturday. I only make this
claim because setting unrealistic deadlines is the only known
solution to my not doing anything :-)

</serious>

(I wonder if this means that the complete Tigress deckplans wouldn't
 fit on a cd - oh well, I'll have to do something else this weekend :-)

<serious(ish)>

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:44:51 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War Sale

Hi,
	I have come into a copy of Fifth Frontier War, and I am interested in
selling it.  The game is complete, unpunched, but missing the box.  A
list of contents can be available upon request.

	I am looking to sell at the best offer (need the cash).  Please reply
privately to: scspieker@hotmail.com

Thank you,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:00:26 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

My webpage has been updated to include deckplans for my version of the
classic traveller 400 ton Patrol Cruiser (Type T).  My Torch class ship
matches the original specs (Book 2) in all aspects except the fuel capacity
misprint, which has been corrected.  Comments are welcome/desired.

See: http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:51:48 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Sorry, Guys...

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Sorry, Guys...

"Better to think twice in advance than to ask for forgiveness."

Or, as the Vilani proverb goes,

"Politeness is a man's OBLIGATION. Friensdhip, his gift."

;-)
Carlos
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:24:42 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starships

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
What I want are highly-optimised designs with complete background
information for ships players would encounter often in a campaign. I would
rather the book contain 3 *good* designs than 10 average designs.

By "highly-optimised" I mean that the designs take advantage of the
complete design rules and be extremely difficult to improve. Gearheads
should be able to use these designs as examples of the "right" way to
design GURPS Traveller starships.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing about "highly optimized" - it assumes that your design sequence
covers everything about starships in the game universe. If anything is
ignored or abstracted out, then going for 100% efficient design can leave
you with a ship that's efficient, but not very realistic.

For example, ships made under CT High Guard don't need to have any
cargo space. You can have a multi-kiloton cruiser operate for a year
or more away from base with no space on board for cargo stores.

Another thing about "highly optimized", is that you have to ask, "optimized
for what?". A patrol cruiser has to be optimized for long time on station,
high-G interception, escort combat duties, space rescue operations,
priority transport capabilities and customs enforcement. While this
example is the most extreme, every ship has some multi-role design
requirements that will make it a little less of one thing to be more capable
at another.

100% optimization is fine when you're designing ships for starship combat
scrimmages (like we're doing over on CT-Starships list), but they don't
tend to make ships that are very interesting for the "real world" of a
Traveller universe.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:35:21 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

Paul Schirf wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
My webpage has been updated to include deckplans for my version of the
classic traveller 400 ton Patrol Cruiser (Type T).  My Torch class ship
matches the original specs (Book 2) in all aspects except the fuel capacity
misprint, which has been corrected.  Comments are welcome/desired.

See: http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nice take on the type T, Paul. I especially found the reversible boat bay
interesting, I've not seen that before.

It looks like an unstreamlined ship, though...would this be a partially
streamlined variant off the type T?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:54:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

Howdy!
> 
> > From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> > Subject: Sorry, Guys...
> 
> "Better to think twice in advance than to ask for forgiveness."
> 
> Or, as the Vilani proverb goes,
> 
> "Politeness is a man's OBLIGATION. Friensdhip, his gift."
> 
> ;-)
> Carlos
On the other hand, it is better to acknowledge ones slips and
ask forgiveness than to bullishly ignore the clues...

It seems, from snippets I see, that some writers are taking
advantage of openings to snipe at Clif. He took his lumps, and
has been given an opportunity to return to this community. 
If he is going to misbehave and get himself exiled again, let
him do it on his own merits, without being goaded. 

If you hector a dog until it snaps at you, who is to blame for
the resulting bite?

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #155
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 17 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 156



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Sectors to Rimward of Solomani Rim
Re: Daibei Sector Online
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
Re: T5 Questions
Starship laser rendering
Re: Off-Topic
Hmmm!
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll 
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Alien biology question
Re: Off-Topic
CT Belter Operations Rules
Re: Coolness Under Fire
(MT) Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:53:49 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

>
> My webpage has been updated to include deckplans for my version of the
> classic traveller 400 ton Patrol Cruiser (Type T).  My Torch class ship
> matches the original specs (Book 2) in all aspects except the fuel capacity
> misprint, which has been corrected.  Comments are welcome/desired.
>
> See: http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.  Is it meant to submerge?
Because with that big wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater and you
wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:59:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

The Woodlands wrote:
>
> >Well, I'll have to take the other tack...ever get a complete newbie 90%
> >through character generation, have 'em miss one roll and tell them...
> >
> >"Oh well, start over, that one died..."
> >
> >They say "Oh well, that's over, lets go play D&D some more. This Traveller
> >is >a STUPID game."
> >
> >KILLING characters before you even _start_ playing always seemed to me to
> >be >the ultimate in user-unfriendliness.
> 
> I disagree.  This is an integral part of the character generation process.
> If you roll a character with an inital STR: of 2, stick him in the Belters
> so that he can get killed off.  If unlucky enough to survive a few terms,
> start trying for +1 Str on the Personal Development Table.  It's always a
> riot.  I think that players love rolling up characters as much as playing.


Yours maybe...then again, I prefer GURPS or FUDGE style directed chargen MUCH
beter than random chargen. The players end up with characters they like and
understand much better, hence have more fun playing.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:13:44 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

>
> > "Better to think twice in advance than to ask for forgiveness."
> >
> > Or, as the Vilani proverb goes,
> >
> > "Politeness is a man's OBLIGATION. Friensdhip, his gift."
> >

>
> On the other hand, it is better to acknowledge ones slips and
> ask forgiveness than to bullishly ignore the clues...

I thought there was a saying like: It is easier to ask for forgiveness
than for permission.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:18:18 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

In a message dated 2/17/99 9:56:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, herveus@Radix.Net
writes:

<< 
 It seems, from snippets I see, that some writers are taking
 advantage of openings to snipe at Clif. He took his lumps, and
 has been given an opportunity to return to this community. 
 If he is going to misbehave and get himself exiled again, let
 him do it on his own merits, without being goaded. >>

	I agree. Clif's been a reasonably good boy lately and his posts are rather
interesteing and lively, cut him a little slack.

	

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:21:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Did it have a buffer or was it only glass core and cladding?

- --Clif

>
>BTW, smallest fibre-optic coil seen to date was approx 4 inches/10cm across
>and about 50m long when unrolled (2mm dia across the outer sleeve),
weighing
>about the same as an empty plastic coffee cup.  Cost unknown, but it was
for
>use in a Computer Room, so probably astronomical 8).
>
>Jeff.
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:31:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

I've already been granted permission to speak.  Who do you know who asks,
"Excuse me, but may I please insult you?"  Hmm, that's kinda funny.  I think
I'll use that.

- --Clif

>I thought there was a saying like: It is easier to ask for forgiveness
>than for permission.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:30:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Sectors to Rimward of Solomani Rim

I've looked throught the database of near-canonical UWP information 
available from one of the great Traveller sites off of Hyphen's Jump 
Points (the Equendon Campaign, IIRC), and found the following 
Sector names, some with system data, but most without.  (Aldeberan 
does have any UWP data.)

Magyar       |  Solomani Rim  |  Alpha Crucis
===============================
Campus       |  Aldeberan     |  Neworld
===============================
Hanstone     |  Malorn        |  Hadji
===============================
  (Unknown)  |  (Unknown)     |  Rimreach

Hope this helps.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:59 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Daibei Sector Online

Peter Newman wrote:

> The Daibei Sector, circa 1119 is located at
>
> http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/DaibeiCT/DaibeiCT.html
>

Thanks much.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:43:20 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

Clif wrote:

> I've already been granted permission to speak.  Who do you know who asks,
> "Excuse me, but may I please insult you?"  Hmm, that's kinda funny.  I think
> I'll use that.
>
> --Clif
>
> >I thought there was a saying like: It is easier to ask for forgiveness
> >than for permission.
> >

Actually, its a ploy to get a building into a place that it is not permitted.
You play dumb, build the building, then when the inspector comes you grease some
palms.

Same thing could be applied to nearly any illegal operation.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:54:11 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

Bruce wrote:
>>Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
>>people playing one in my MT Refs guide!


david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>If you are thinking of the Danforth illo, look closely - they are playing
>Traveller.  ;-)


Hey, you know he's right.


I don't know how many times I've looked at that picture and never noticed
that.  I presume too, that the female to the right is the
referee/gamemaster/insert other (un)provocative title here/??

tc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:11:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 02:11 AM 2/16/99 -0900, you wrote:

>DB > > Doug has pestered Marc to consider the Core during 
>DB > > Arbellatra's Regency.

>Peter is confused when others refer to self in third person.  Peter
>thinks Doug is good writer, if Doug wants Core during Arbelleatra's
>Regency will Doug write it?

sure.

After I finish any ACQ revisons, 101st Spaceborne, my Lunion webpages, the
Illuminated Traveller pages...

..and that doesn't even count my proposal for G:T Imperial Army.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:14:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Starship laser rendering

A crude, undetailed (you can tell I've been looking at Jesse's stuff
again ;-) rendering of a starship laser is on my web pages at :

http://u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html 

It's at the bottom of the page. As you can see it's pretty TNE-ish. My
take is that there is a small, clamshell  (or even flat) opening where
the 'turret' is on the ship. When in firing position, the doors open and
the laser firing assembly is raised out of the opening, aimed and fired.

On ships with tight space concerns, such as small traders and the like,
the turret will be a dome on the hull...the disadvantage is that the
laser assembly is then in a very cramped compartment, requiring either
EVA's on the hull or a shirtsleeve environment to work in. In naval
vessels, I suspect the entire assembly would be retractable into the
hull for maintenance, and repair purposes.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:44:15 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Valid point!  :)   The other benefit is TEACHING them to shoot.  "Here, let
me get behind you, now hold it like this".
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@texed.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: Off-Topic


>
>
>>It'd certainly work for me, especially if she was good lookin' and could
>>shoot well :)
>>Jesse
>
>
>Word of advice:  Good looking is okay, but you should always prefer your
>women with little or no firearm skill.  Seen one to many men saved by the
>fact that women didn't know how to get the safety off.
>
>:)
>TV
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:51:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Hmmm!

We were _just_ speaking aboput hardennig electronics, weren't we...

http://www.honeywell.com/space/news/release/mot-hi.htm

Is a news release about building a 'space hardened' PowerPC processor.

"Maaaaac's iiin spaaaaaaace' ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:57:09 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll 

> The Woodlands wrote:
> >
> > >Well, I'll have to take the other tack...ever get a complete newbie 90%
> > >through character generation, have 'em miss one roll and tell them...
> > >
> > >"Oh well, start over, that one died..."
> > >
> > >They say "Oh well, that's over, lets go play D&D some more. This Traveller
> > >is >a STUPID game."
> > >
> > >KILLING characters before you even _start_ playing always seemed to me to
> > >be >the ultimate in user-unfriendliness.
> > 
> > I disagree.  This is an integral part of the character generation process.
> > If you roll a character with an inital STR: of 2, stick him in the Belters
> > so that he can get killed off.  If unlucky enough to survive a few terms,
> > start trying for +1 Str on the Personal Development Table.  It's always a
> > riot.  I think that players love rolling up characters as much as playing.
> 
> 
> Yours maybe...then again, I prefer GURPS or FUDGE style directed chargen MUCH
> beter than random chargen. The players end up with characters they like and
> understand much better, hence have more fun playing.

I've never seen GURPS char rollup.  All I know is what I've read on the list.

What I've done for 20 years now, in my FTF games, if a player blows a survival 
roll, the got to roll on a little table I prepared that automatically mustered 
them out and put them in play.  I don't have a copy of it in front of me, but 
some of the things on it included a Dishonorable Discharge (lose 3 mustering 
out rolls), Lose a limb (roll a die, divide by 2, round *UP*, and take that 
off your choice of STR, DEX, or END), and so forth.  There were die mods for 
the various careers so that Others' couldn't get a Dishonorable Discharge but 
*could* get 'Spend 1D6 years in an Imperial Prison, -2 SOC'.

Fun table.  And considering one group I GMed for about 2 years had over a 
*third* of them blow a survival roll, the results were interesting...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:10:04 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

In a message dated 2/17/99 12:01:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< 
 What I've done for 20 years now, in my FTF games, if a player blows a
survival 
 roll, the got to roll on a little table I prepared that automatically
mustered 
 them out and put them in play >>


	Sounds like a fun table, I like it.   I think maybe allowing the player to
dump any character who fails survival roll might be a good optional rule as
well.  But, I think I am converted to the viewpoint that it should be
automatic death, that would discourage the more fragile or newbie players.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:20:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

Oh, it took me a while to understand what you were saying, but now I get it.
Well, I was sincerely sorry for saying it, but not for thinking it.  And I
wasn't using a ploy.

- --Clif

>Actually, its a ploy to get a building into a place that it is not
permitted.
>You play dumb, build the building, then when the inspector comes you grease
some
>palms.
>
>Same thing could be applied to nearly any illegal operation.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:41:13 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Clif wrote:

>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
>war zone.
>
>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

You hear a noise.
You blast off a magazine (each) of ammo at the target.
It turns out to be a snake/critter.
You have just used a chunk of your basic load.
If I am nearby, I now *know* that you are, and which direction you are
in.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:38:57 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Clif wrote:

>I have questions about any kind of Firearm Combat skill...
>
>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>
>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>
>- --or--
>
>"Confirm your target and then shoot."
>
>The first philosophy could needlessly end the lives of friendlies; the
>second philosophy could get you killed if you meet troops who believe in the
>first philosophy.

The answer is: The second. Troops with the second philosophy are likely
to be well trained and well disciplined, and will most likely detect and
engage less disciplined, poorer quality troops before they are located.
They are also less likely to run out of ammo when they need it.

[snip]

>Also, I'm wondering, if a GM used skill level to determine how cool a
>character was flying a jet or shooting a weapon, should you assign modifiers
>based on the most superior weapon being employed by the enemy?
>
>For example:  (Highest being most nerve-wracking)
>
>Close Range/Indoors:
>

Insert: Flamethrower.

>Grenade
>Machinegun
>SMG

Assuming you mean an M-60 category for machinegun, and an Uzi for SMG,
these should be reversed. Inside, you're more likely to be able to get
an Uzi / MP-5K / Skorpion on target while the guy with the heavy tool is
still thinking about it.

>Rifle, Shotgun

Shotguns, especially modern combat shotguns, are above rifles/assualt
rifles for real close-in work. Probably just worse than an SMG.

>Pistol

>Long Range/Outdoors:
>
>Grenade

Nah. Outside, you can't throw a grenade beyond it's blast radius. The
are strictly for use when you can ensure that you aren't going to kill
yourself - preferably, when the other guy is in a bunker/trench/building
- - or if he isn't and you are.

>Machinegun
>Rifle
>SMG
>Shotgun
>Pistol

Light antiarmour weapons shout feature on this list somewhere - they are
just the job for removing nasty MG emplacements at range. E.g. British
Army use of MILAN missiles during Op. Corporate.

>There would be a modifier equal to the number of levels up or down to the
>opposing weapon.
>
>This would represent the suppressive fire put out by the superior weapon.  A
>suppressed character would only be able to seek and cower behind cover and
>"spray and pray".
>
>I know I don't have to ask for criticism.

ObTraveller: I'm going to be most scared by the git with the UV Laser
Rifle and the mother of all electronic sights. No signature, just my
troops going down. I guess that'd need some form of UV vision capability
to combat.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:26:53 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

Clif wrote:

>>And if it's a weapon
>>system, it's not TOO far fetched to postulate some kind of
>>semiflexible covering which will prevent it from being bent too far.
>>One MIGHT assume weapons designers are aware of most of the
>>vulnerabilities of the materials they propose using, unless they're
>>morons who wouldn't be designing weapons in the first place.
>
>Oh, like the M2 Bradley doesn't have its design flaws.  Like the Patriot
>missile was as efficient as it was hailed to be.  I don't assume anything
>when it comes to military contracts.

The M2, when it came out, was the best IFV on the market. Sure, there
are better, newer things today (I'm a BMP-3 fan myself). As for Patriot
- - it was out hitting Scuds, even though it wasn't (at the time) designed
as an anti-missile system.

Do you actually know anything about how military procurement works?

ObTraveller: I guess that, since the individual armed forces are so big,
the 3I procurement would have been done by the individual forces rather
than by a joint-forces procurement body like we have at the moment.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:33:31 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

David P. Summers writes:
"Direct radiation damage is pretty obvious.  The strand is
cut in two.  The base pair isn't a base pair anymore.  Two
strands have been crosslinked and can no longer be seperated..."

	Well, the fact that it is cut in two has to be noticed 
	chemically. This might be obvious if the strand is being
	transcribed, but even then a sophisticated mechanism is
	required to respond appropriately. As for the base pair,
	this refers to a pair of a purine on one strand with a 
	pyrimidine on its complimentary strand. It is possible
	to cut a strand without removing a base pair (the cell
	sometimes does this for various reasons), and I imagine 
	that a base pair could be changed without cutting the
	strand, though I am reaching the limits of my knowledge 
	here.

Guillem Plasencia writes:
"I would not say "comfortable" but adapted...I guess living 
in an highly irradiated world is no joke, no matter how does 
that species manage to live there. Sure they can manage to
live there, but if they were given the chance to live in less 
hard conditions, they would "improve" some of their species 
features: better fertility, longer life, larger populations..."

	I would venture to say that organisms tend to feel 
	'comfortable' under conditions that afford them the 
	best chances for survival and reproduction. This
	pattern of behaviour evolves over many generations,
	but is not precognitive: it does not 'plan' for
	new conditions that have not been involved in the
	evolution of the behaviour. For example, most birds
	probably feel more comfortable high in a tree than on 
	the ground. Even if one such bird moved to an island 
	with no predators, it would take many generations of 
	natural selection before that bird's decendants felt 
	more comfortable on the ground.

Ian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:36:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Yeah, and telling them, "you want to get a good firm grip on the gun, and if
you're not holding it, make sure you holster it, firmly.  Practice
holstering it for a while."  There is something to be said for unabashed
piggish, Ithough non-threatening, behavior in this PC world.

- --Clif


>Valid point!  :)   The other benefit is TEACHING them to shoot.  "Here, let
>me get behind you, now hold it like this".
>Jesse
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:38:17 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: CT Belter Operations Rules

        Hi, there...  I never did like the rules in the JTAS that described
Belting, and I found that the "Beltstrike" rules left me wondering why any
Sophont not fit for insitutionalization would even bother.  =)  So, with the
help of someone one evening on the #TRAVELLER IRC Undernet channel
(Shadowcat - e-mail me with your name so I can give you credit!), I
scratched together a set of "PC friendly" rules.
        They are currently on my website at
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller".  Pick the "house-rules" button
and hit the link on the bottom of the page.  The economics comments are
based on MTU, where eco-damage concerns (we learned our lesson on Earth)
precludes heavy industrial mining.  So, Belt mining is a viable alternative.
        The only thing I had difficult reconciling was the *brutal* survival
roles required in the Belter proffession (speaking CT here, don't forget).
I did not include a "job hazard" step for a Belter trip, as I couldn't
really come up with situations that wouldn't force stable, well adjusted
folks to sell thier Seekers and become Merchants after it happened once.
Some suggestions as to "reasonable" risk factors and events are welcome...
I thought about some "mechanics" things like Pilot and Ship Boat rolls
required to avoid mishaps (3d hits collision damage, or some such) while in
the Belt, but that seems a touch hokey.  As I said, suggestions welcome.
        Anyway, they are there for your perusal...  please take a look and
let me know what you think.  I am going to design a small "PC-sized" Belter
ship tonight, roll up a Belter character and see how long it takes to starve
to death.  =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:48:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Thanks for the input, Matt.

>Assuming you mean an M-60 category for machinegun, and an Uzi for SMG,
>these should be reversed. Inside, you're more likely to be able to get
>an Uzi / MP-5K / Skorpion on target while the guy with the heavy tool is
>still thinking about it.
>

I agree, but I tried to factor in the penetration potential of the LMG,
blowing through furniture that the SMG wouldn't.  I guess the speed would
take precedence.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:47:26 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: (MT) Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

>This is the first design that I've done in a long time (and the first
>posted).  Comments welcome!

Good to see someone else who still designs to MT rules!

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #156
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 17 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 157



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
Solar Flares
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips)) >
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Scandinavian languages
coolness under fire (Really LONG)
Re: Objective Longitude
[ct-starships] TCS campaign starting!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:54:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Bad Equipment

>The M2, when it came out, was the best IFV on the market.

I read that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle was a boon-doggle in that it
couldn't carry a full squad?  Or was that there were more seats than a squad
had soldiers?  In other words, the complaint was that it was designed around
organizational conventions and for some reason, which I can't remember, this
was a REAL BAD THING.  *shrugs*  Hard to "squaddie" (sp?) an armored vehicle
without enough seats, unless you want some of your soldiers to sit on the
outside, somewhere, and duck whenever they wanted to train the MG on
someone.  (Was there also a problem with it not floating like it was touted
to do?)

> Sure, there
>are better, newer things today (I'm a BMP-3 fan myself). As for Patriot
>- it was out hitting Scuds, even though it wasn't (at the time) designed
>as an anti-missile system.

My understanding was the DURING the Gulf War they were raving about the
Patriot, but then AFTER the Gulf War they found out it was a bunch of
propaganda and that the Patriot actually sucked in that role.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:04:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

At 12:54 PM 2/17/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I read that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle was a boon-doggle in that it
>couldn't carry a full squad?  Or was that there were more seats than a squad
>had soldiers?  In other words, the complaint was that it was designed around
>organizational conventions and for some reason, which I can't remember, this
>was a REAL BAD THING.  *shrugs*  Hard to "squaddie" (sp?) an armored vehicle
>without enough seats, unless you want some of your soldiers to sit on the
>outside, somewhere, and duck whenever they wanted to train the MG on
>someone.  (Was there also a problem with it not floating like it was touted
>to do?)

The M2 Bradley is designed to carry six infantry.  The Divison 86 standard
infantry squad has eleven people.  Slight problem.

Back in the day, when we used M113A3s, we regularly got 15+ people in to a
single vehicle, with rucksacks.  This was not comfortable in the least,
especially after two weeks int he field, but it worked.  You could also get
four or five guys riding on the cargo hatch.  That was a great vehicle.

The biggest complaint from the grunts was that we needed an entire MOS to
drive the bloody things.  11M.  Anybody could drive a -113 with very little
training.  Not so with the Bradley.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:07:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Typo...  It should have been "was NOT designed around organizational
conventions"

- --Clif

>In other words, the complaint was that it was designed around
>organizational conventions and for some reason, which I can't remember,
this
>was a REAL BAD THING.  *shrugs*  Hard to "squaddie" (sp?) an armored
vehicle
>without enough seats, unless you want some of your soldiers to sit on the
>outside, somewhere, and duck whenever they wanted to train the MG on
>someone.  (Was there also a problem with it not floating like it was touted
>to do?)
>
>> Sure, there
>>are better, newer things today (I'm a BMP-3 fan myself). As for Patriot
>>- it was out hitting Scuds, even though it wasn't (at the time) designed
>>as an anti-missile system.
>
>My understanding was the DURING the Gulf War they were raving about the
>Patriot, but then AFTER the Gulf War they found out it was a bunch of
>propaganda and that the Patriot actually sucked in that role.
>>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:27:06 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Thanks for the info on the Bradley, Doug.

I knew that there were some serious complaints about it.

In typing class, at Ft. Ben Harrison, (laugh away) they played a video, over
and over, on a TV of some grunts with Miles gear (one of the guys jams and
goes through SPORTS(slap the magazine--pull back the charging
handle--observe the chamber--release the charging handle--tap the forward
assist--[Aim]--Shoot)) shooting at a Bradley.  The machinegun on top shook
the branches of trees impressively.

- --Clif

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:28:24 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Solar Flares

While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I saw that 
he had rules for damage from solar flares while conducting an 
EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide protection from solar 
radiation...I have no hard science background so I'm not sure on weather 
flares would distrup in-system  communications as well..Just some 
thought...
TIA
Mike McKeown

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:13:12 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips)) >

 Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> wrote:

>I also have access to Acrobat so if you can get the file to me I'll
>convert them to .pdf for you. Hey, I'd just have to dl them anyway.
<snip>

>> >(If anyone wants to suggest PDF, then a suggestion as to how to create
>> > such a document without paying Adobe any money would be nice)

Adobe mailed me today and announced Acrobat Exchange 4. Has anyone seen/got
this yet (off list replies prefered)?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:29:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

"Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The best character deaths are in three ways.
>Pre-arranged (as you did, Dom), heroic selfless giving of a life to save
>others, and the quick fatal response to an incredibly stupid act...

I agree. But sometimes it can give an enormous emotional shock to the
players/ref when it happens. I've used the third a few times as a ref.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:18:26 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

> Take the character sheet and toss it aside
>for later.  Players run up on a corpse.  Who was it?  Grab one of your
>failed generations.  A forensics expert might be able to uncover (like
>Sherlock Holmes) everything about him or her.  : )

That's a great idea, except I always opted to muster out a character I
liked....

BTW thinking of old style Traveller made me consider Andre Norton's Solar
Queen stuff. What books are there aside from:

Sargasso of Space
(Plague Ship)
Postmarked the Stars
(Voodoo Planet)
Redline the Stars
A Mind for Trade
Derelict for Trade

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:50:21 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

In message <199902161517.QAA10918@grimer.diku.dk>, Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk> writes
>Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are so closely related that if the three
>countries were united, they would be called dialects. I can read Norwegian
>and Swedish almost as fast as I read Danish. Speech is slightly more
>difficult, but really only a matter of practice. In the colony you're
>describing the three languages will (IMO) melt together in a matter of
>years.

Not if the Danes are from Jutland and the Norwegians from Trondheim (or
is that Tromsoe?).  Talk about impenetrable dialects... 
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:13:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

I prefer pop turrets on streamlined and partially streamlined ships. Extended,
they have 360x180 degree azimuth and elevation, but they can retract flush
with the hull for refueling/re-entry. These turrets should take up interior
volume (which I justify in HG for the 1 displacement ton for fire control). I
guess by this reasoning, non-pop up turrets shouldn't take up imterior volume,
but HG never differenciated between them. Does anyone know if FFS or FFS2
does?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:31:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Martin Hardgrave wrote:

>Not if the Danes are from Jutland and the Norwegians from Trondheim (or
>is that Tromsoe?).  Talk about impenetrable dialects... 

Actually there are dialects in Norway that are very hard to understand. 
Some are impossible if the speaker uses nothing but local words and tone.
My girlfriends friend is from a small place only a few hours away from 
the captial, were I live, keeps using words I never heard before. Its 
really peculiar.

>Martin Hardgrave


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:36:03 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

At 09:58 AM 2/17/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 23:04 16/02/1999 -0500, kurt@blazenet.net (Kurt Feltenberger) wrote:
>>This is the first design that I've done in a long time (and the first
>>posted).  Comments welcome!
>
>>Susquehanna Class Frigate 
>
><snip design>
>
>I'm not good on reading MT design sheets, so please make allowances if I
>missunderstand something.
>
>There don't appear to be any fuel scoops or a purification plant.

You did not miss anything, I did.  I guess the warning label on the flu
medicine I took last night was accurate.  ;-)  Talk about truth in advertising.

The spreadsheet I used did have fuel scoops and a refinery capable of
refining the carried tankage in 48hrs.  Somehow it did not transfer from
the worksheet to the description.

>For a deep penetration raider to be able to use jump-5, it needs at
>least enough fuel for jump-5 followed by jump-1 *without* refuelling
>(just in case its destination isn't safe.)
>
>The cargo space seems too low at 1%.

I based it off of two things...

1.  I used the amount of hull space that was inhabited as the basis.  This
brings it up toabout 2% or so.

2.  It was all that was left after shoehorning the other goodies in.  ;-)

>Without supplies, missile bays aren't ideal weapons and your independent
>laser turrets are going to take some time chewing up 600std merchants
>that aren't worth a missile salvo.
>On that subject, if you have 10 turrets firing independently and one
>bay, don't you need more than 3 gunners?

Aaargh!  Another thing that did not transfer from the worksheet to the
description were the missile magazines...

There were supposed to be two seperate magazines, one with 50 battery
rounds of conventional weapons and one with 25 battery rounds of nuclear
weapons.

Regarding gunners, the spreadsheet uses the MT crew calculations to
determine the number of gunners.  It uses control points modified by the
computer CP multiple.  I've had some rather large ships where the ships
troops outnumbered the crew by three to one, and it was not a troopship.  

>Tech 16? In whose Y1119 navy?

The Imperial Navy in the Domain of Deneb.  The Susquehannas were built at
Vincennes, a TL16 world in Deneb Sector.  My current campaign is MT set in
the G:T timeline.

>If you are just going after merchants, consider a carrier - even the
>standard Imperial Heavy Fighter can make a mess of 600std merchants
>and the risk to your carrier is quite low.
>
>Fighters also allow you to be in several places at the same time,
>so you can hit several merchants in the system and leave before
>anyone can react. However a bunch of fighters is expensive.

Good points.  Perhaps one or two hulls can be modified to fit this theory.

The two gunned gigs can take the role of fighters if that is necessary.  By
using fighters, a raider becomes pinned in a system unless she wishes to
abandon them should the need arise.  Also, adding a wing of fighters adds
another issue to the mix, maintenance and spares.  For a raider, fighters
should supplant and enhance the ship's effectiveness, not be the primary punch.

Perhaps when the TL-17 version slides off the ways we will have a few
fighters...

>Its an interesting design with an achievable mission.
>
><Free Trader rant>
>
>The real problem with designs like this is that when we
>use them on the Vargr, they just give the Vargr ideas.
>
>When the Vargr version turns up, its not going to attack the Navy
>or GasBag it going to attack ME! And how much compensation do you
>think I'm going to get from GasBag?
>
></Free Tarder Rant>

"Pay your taxes/duties/tarriffs citizen, we'll worry about the barkers..."
a comment attributed to the late SubLieutenant Guffrey at the weekly
meeting of the Free Traders Association, right before the riot...

"We just build them, we are not responsible for how they are employed or
used by their rightfull, or not so rightfull, owners."  GSbAG spokesman.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:33:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Michael McKeown wrote:

>While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I saw that 
>he had rules for damage from solar flares while conducting an 
>EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide protection from solar 
>radiation...I have no hard science background so I'm not sure on weather 
>flares would distrup in-system  communications as well..Just some 
>thought...
>TIA
>Mike McKeown
>

Actually the astronauts today are very aware of solar flares. You don't
want to be caught out in the open when one happens. I even think that
they on Mir have to pull into a special module during a flare.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:41:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I prefer pop turrets on streamlined and partially streamlined ships. Extended,
> they have 360x180 degree azimuth and elevation, but they can retract flush
> with the hull for refueling/re-entry. These turrets should take up interior
> volume (which I justify in HG for the 1 displacement ton for fire control). I
> guess by this reasoning, non-pop up turrets shouldn't take up imterior volume,
> but HG never differenciated between them. Does anyone know if FFS or FFS2
> does?

FFS2 doesn't, nor does FFS, IIRC. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:52:28 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

At 08:33 PM 17/02/99 +0100, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Michael McKeown wrote:
>
>>While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I saw that 
>>he had rules for damage from solar flares while conducting an 
>>EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide protection from solar 
>>radiation...I have no hard science background so I'm not sure on weather 
>>flares would distrup in-system  communications as well..Just some 
>>thought...
>>TIA
>>Mike McKeown
>>
>
>Actually the astronauts today are very aware of solar flares. You don't
>want to be caught out in the open when one happens. I even think that
>they on Mir have to pull into a special module during a flare.
>
>Tommy Grav

        The other thing about that "house rule" is that it only applies to a
certain number of stars which are noted to be prone to violent flare
activity...  powerful enough to score temporary "hits" on non-FIB starship
computers during the length of the flare activity.
        The "small ones" aren't noteworthy and therefore I don't worry
players about them =)

        --Michel (who has no "a" in his first name)


        
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:00:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 

> Actually there are dialects in Norway that are very hard to understand.
> Some are impossible if the speaker uses nothing but local words and tone.
> My girlfriends friend is from a small place only a few hours away from
> the captial, were I live, keeps using words I never heard before. Its
> really peculiar.

Actually, it's not all that unusual, particularly in countries with long
histories of human settlement (thousands of years). I've seen studies
(admittedly old) that said England had something like 300 or 350
mutually incomprehensible dialects of English.

The huge kicker in all of this is that these differences fade away
relatively rapidly with the onset of modern communications, particularly
when people move from the original homes to new colonies...that same
study looking at English dialects claimed that there were only 3
mutually incomprehensible dialects in the US, and their examples
(appalachian, cajun, and a dialect spoken on one island in South
Carolina) are all actually very heavily influenced by other languages
German, French (French Canadian,in fact which is recognized as a quite
different dialect of French) and an African language, respectively. (The
island in South Carolina was settled by slaves)

This is all from an old memory a long time ago, and any with better
linguistics skills feel free to chop, slice and dice this post as they
see fit.

ObTrav: While colonies settled by different ethnic/language groups may
start out having different languages, they will likely end up with one,
showing roots of all of the original languages yet be a different
language. Witness English, the prime example of exactly that process.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:12:45 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

>Clif wrote:
>
>>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>>its way through the bush.

in jungles that means both parties are really close!

    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
>>war zone.
>You hear a noise.
>You blast off a magazine (each) of ammo at the target.
>It turns out to be a snake/critter.
>You have just used a chunk of your basic load.
>If I am nearby, I now *know* that you are, and which direction you are
>in 

Even if you do know, in a jungle enviroment you could still not find the
enemy. A good source of Info on this would be most Vietnam era books. Some
Jungles were so dense that if you were not with in 2 ft of your buddies,
you could get lost. A firefight
that took place 200 ft away might as well have been a hundred miles away.

>
>Clif wrote:
>
>>I have questions about any kind of Firearm Combat skill...
>>
>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?
>>
>>"Shoot first and ask questions, later."
>>
>>- --or--
>>
>>"Confirm your target and then shoot."
>>
>>The first philosophy could needlessly end the lives of friendlies; the
>>second philosophy could get you killed if you meet troops who believe in the
>>first philosophy.

niether. the above represents a scenerio. no skill was present. I read a
story of a vietnam incounter; a patrol was hoofing it through a jungle, saw
some hefty movement unloaded into the bush thinking a VC patrol was about
to jump em, instead they got a really upset gorilla. who proceded to show
them why you don't piss off animals that are really strong.

>The answer is: The second. Troops with the second philosophy are likely
>to be well trained and well disciplined, and will most likely detect and
>engage less disciplined, poorer quality troops before they are located.
>They are also less likely to run out of ammo when they need it.
>

I disagree in part. Both philosphies have strength and weakness, yes it is
a good idea to identify your enemy first but who is the enemy? there are a
zillion examples of the enemy in disquise as innocent civilians, the USA
has an informal policy. shoot anything that dos'nt immediatly surrender.
When I was stationed in Korea on the DMZ our orders were. 'If you see
ANYONE in this area (the DMZ) during your patrol, shoot them first then see
who they were.' 
	Read vietnam liturature, the troops were so harrassed by the tricks of the
enemy they would shoot at anything. Why do you think the soldiers had the
nick name 'Baby killers?' (the VC used children with explosives strapped to
them as walking remote detonation mines.) Another example would be that you
have an enemy patrol in your back area, you have orders to identify your
target first then shoot, the enemy has orders to shoot everything. Who
wins? More then likely the enemy he knows he has no friendlys to worry about.

Even well trained and disciplined troops can panic and run out of ammo. 

In or about 1985, Bravo Company 1st/17th was stationed on the Korean DMZ
(they had been stationed there for about a year as I understand it) during
one of the nights a ground radar tech detected a lone enemy presence slowly
creeping toward the guard tower. The unit was put on alert, weapons were
manned and aimed at the location.
When everyone was ready the commander ordered the interperter to order the
intruder to surrender. The figure on the radar stopped. But did not
surrender. a few mins later the intruder started forward again. The signal
to fire was given and the unit poured hundreds of rounds into the area of
the intruder. A squad was sent in to identify the remains of the
individual. It was a mess. The target had been hit several times by most of
the weapons fire. They searched until they found all of the body parts
of... a Deer. 

>[snip]
>
>>Also, I'm wondering, if a GM used skill level to determine how cool a
>>character was flying a jet or shooting a weapon, should you assign modifiers
>>based on the most superior weapon being employed by the enemy?
>>
coolness under fire IMO is a situational event and should only come into
effect when you see the enemy firing at you or you see your buddies falling
dead around you or that grenade bounching into the room with you. Bigger
guns does not mean better sunglasses (cool eh?) Better firepower means
survivability. better survivability means more modifiers for coolness next
time you'er in combat. Armor or distance and Experence generally mean
better coolness mods, if a soldier is protected from wpns fire or a pilot
knows he can hit his target before they know or react to his presence, or
if the M203 fire'er is 300 ft away and can arc his shot to the target
without exposing himself too much. You can also have three different
critical failures for coolness.

1. A normal failure means you cannot activily aim in the firefight and may
run away. (what ever the book says)

2. A roll of a 4 on 3d means you are frozen in fear and cannot move (AT
ALL) while the firefight is occuring.

3. A roll of 3 on 3d could mean you beleave you feel you are invincible or
have super luck to enemy fire and will walk out into the firefight
causually shoot everything in sight (enemy) this type of failure is very
dangerous to friendlies. hmm what point value delusion is this?

Imagine an enemy in traveller that uses the vietnam era tactics on imperial
troops. Soon the troops would not want to leave starbase without a full
armed platoon to do R and R. A bad mix is soldiers with guns in an R and R
zone. (it's armed additude.) don't say it cannot happen. it has happened in
the past already. The Propaganda alone would force several alliances to
consider if it was worthwhile to be aligned with the goverment. A bad
enough terrorist group could cause the imperial garrison to want to decide
if cleansing the planet is a viable option.

who can take a building better the army or the marines?

the marines use machine guns and grenades.

the army, three year lease with option to buy. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:44:04 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Objective Longitude

> > alot!  So how long would that take?  Covered by the normal "mapping"
> rules?
> > (In World Tamers Handbook, it's D6 * UWP size digit).
> > 
> 
> D6 * UWP size _what_? Days -- certainly. Hours -- probably. 

D'oh... knew i left something out... (actually, i saw it when I got the
digest. : ).  It's days.  

> What it really takes is a number of orbits. Three or four complete orbits
> are enough to establish the planet's baseline gravitation (G*M) with
> accuracy. Then you can go looking for more subtle effects. The lower the
> orbit and the more passes you make, the finer the resolution. But for just
> the J1 term (I think that's what it is -- I still don't have my geodesy
> notes to consult) it wouldn't take more than a dozen passes or so -- that's
> one of the first after the baseline G*M term. Say, 18-24 hours for a
> typical low orbit around the Earth.

On that note, I'd like to see some kind of supplement that could detail
spaceflight (optionally, so the rule-challenged don't have a spasm) in
Traveller, along w/ 'primitive' methods for auxilliary methods.  : )  Transfer
orbits, detailed mechanics, etc.  Something that could help me explain these
things to the uninitiated, would be best, as I understand most of it, but
don't know how to express it, w/o what amounts to a lecture. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:46:51 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: [ct-starships] TCS campaign starting!

I'm looking for some players to run a TCS campaign; you don't have to
have chat access for combats, we can always find a fleet admiral to 
handle that - but I'm looking for some Emperors or would-be-Emperors
to play the old Supplement 5 Islands Clusters Campaign.

I'm also looking for some help designing some low-tech (TTLs 7-9) 
system defense forces, using HG+TCS.


DonM.
===========================================================================

Trillion Credit Squadron Campaign

Don McKinney, moderator


Factions:

A) Esperanza
	0926	Esperanza	A674ABC-B N P G
	0925	Wellington	C8B0263-A x x x
	0930	St. Hilaire	B579763-A N x x

B) New Colchis
	1327	New Colchis	A8959AA-C N x x
	1426	Herzenlust	E995765-6 x x G

C) Joyeuse
	1628	Joyeuse		A7899B9-C N x G
	1729	Quichotte	E576667-6 N x G

D) Serendip Belt
	1323	Serendip Belt	A000959-C N P G
	1123	Gloire		C764567-9 x x G

E) Neubayern
	1822	Neubayern	A7889C9-C N P x
	1923	Schlesien Belt	C000367-B N P G

F) New Home
	1925	New Home	A565857-D N P G

G) Amondiage
	2325	Amondiage	A5629A9-C N x G
	2225	Acadie		C868563-9 x x x

H) Sansterre [Walt Smith]
	2322	Sansterre	A87A943-C N P G
	2423	St.Denis	D735764-7 N P G

Neutral worlds:
	0921	Zuflucht	C445720-8 N P x
	1030	Nebelwelt	C879425-5 x x G no defenses
	1429	Orphee		X885600-0 x P x interdicted
	1522	Topas		D120899-5 x x G no defenses
	1525	Elysee		B502532-9 N P x
	1526	Besancon	C201341-9 N x G
	1621	Berlichingen	D600437-7 x x x
	1724	Sturgeon's Law	DAC1451-6 x x G no defenses
	2026	Colchis		B676898-9 X x G
	2123	St. Genevieve	C460100-A x x G
	2324	Achille		E101335-9 x P x

	NOTE: we do need system defense forces for the neutrals

Campaign Rules:

1)	High Guard, 2nd ed. and Trillion Credit Squadron rules as 
	modified here.
2)	No bays in designs under 1kton in size.  No 10t bays allowed.
3)	Ship size listed on the High Guard computer table is 
	considered to be the smallest size requiring that computer.
	This allows TL 11 worlds to build 99,999t ships.
4)	Fighters use Stefan Jones' squadron rules from JTAS.
5)	Fighters use Stefan Jones' close attack rules from JTAS (+2).
6)	Crew losses are taken in sections rather than in crew factors,
	as in JTAS.
7)	Walt Smith's area point defense and escort rules are allowed
	only for lasers.  Players must decide what ships are using
	either mode during the Battle Formation Step.
	Ships in the reserve may provide area point defense and escort
	for other ships in the reserve.
8)	Tactical Intelligence: general size and number will be 
	provided for as follows: hull size 0 (generally not revealed
	as carried craft), hull sizes 1-9, hull sizes A-J, hull sizes
	K-N, hull sizes P-Q, hull sizes R-Y. 
9)	Population Multipliers: all worlds are considered to have a
	population multipler of "5", except Esperanza which has a "2",
	and New Home which has an "8". 
10)	Systems: for simplicity sake, a system contains an inner system,
	including the world and any belts or gas giants, and an outer
	system, which is totally empty.  Ships in the outer system
	cannot be forced to battle.
11)	Planetary Surrender:  number of weapon factors required to
	force planetary surrender are equal to population factor * world
	TL (that's still close to 100). The requirement is doubled for
	worlds with naval bases, tripled for faction capitals (not
	cumulative).  If the world does not surrender, the enemy
	presence does not effect ongoing ship building.
	If a world does surrender, taxes received will be halved the
	first year (same if reconquered, due to economic damage). 
	Conquered repair facilities are available after 12 weeks and
	ship building facilities are available after 48 weeks.
	(the times in TCS for ship building facilities effectively 
	removed them from the campaign).
12)	Combat: Combats will be resolved in a fashion agreed to by all
	sides involved in the encounter and the moderator.  If no 
	agreement is reached in a timely manner, the moderator will 
	generate results randomly. Don't let that happen to you!
13)	Independent worlds of TL 7 or higher will have some form of
	system defense force. 
- --
===========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist              dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems            (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                            (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVII Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org      (217) 469-9917 = 
===========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #157
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 17 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 158



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A World without Death
FFW Sold!
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)
Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)
Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
RE: Magazines?
Deckplan Orientation
URL change for my Traveller site
My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Coolness Under Fire
Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:44:02 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A World without Death

> >...they were running into
> [snip various expected TED trinkets]
> >...and a Vampire Hiver Bruiser (what they dubbed "The Roper").
> >  Ah, those were the days.  : )
> 
> You ran them into WHAT??!!! And they SURVIVED!!??

Not all of em. : ) And only because the RCS Kelley Victrix came down and
strafed the thing w/ it's 76mj Plasma guns.  It got the RCN characters into
the action, too.
;-)

The Baby Bruisers weren't much of a problem, but the Bruiser itself took out
the G-carrier, and 4 RC Marines (2 NPCs) in heavy battle dress w/ plasma guns
before the KV came in and blew the sucker to hell.  That was a good adventure.
Fortunately, for the military campaigns, it was the "cast of hundreds"
approach where each player had several characters at different echelons
(commanding/officer types, enlisted/grunt types, etc), so the high fatality
levels (as befits the dangerous situations they were often in) didn't bug
much.  

With the civilian campaign, it was much different and those were the
characters that the players were more attached to.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:59:22 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: FFW Sold!

Hi again,
	Thanks for the responses, I have sold the FFW game for what I would
consider a reasonable price.  Be sure to watch for more items to go out
the door.  If you are looking for something in particular, I will be
more than happy to look through the collection and see if I can sell
it/them.

	I am running low on capital, and so I must sacrifice many of my gaming
collection(s).  Traveller being one of them...  My loss is your gain.

	I will probably have a complete list for everyone tomorrow.

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:36:12 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Bruce Johnson posted:
>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > I prefer pop turrets on streamlined and partially streamlined ships. Extended,
> >they have 360x180 degree azimuth and elevation, but they can retract flush
> >with the hull for refueling/re-entry. These turrets should take up interior
> >volume (which I justify in HG for the 1 displacement ton for fire control). I
> >guess by this reasoning, non-pop up turrets shouldn't take up imterior volume,
> >but HG never differenciated between them. Does anyone know if FFS or FFS2
> >does?
>
> FFS2 doesn't, nor does FFS, IIRC. 

The *only* Traveller material I've see that deals with pop-up turrets
was in a Challenge magazine article on Q-ships. Can't remember
the issue #, though.

I always found interesting the illustration in FFS which showed the
gunner's station as being in the bottom part of a turret. This may
work for lasers but I always wondered how missles were loaded
into the launchers. I assumed the average ship-to-ship missile
was a short, squat cylinder rather than long and slender.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:37:00 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:54:39 -0500, "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>> Sure, there
>>are better, newer things today (I'm a BMP-3 fan myself). As for Patriot
>>- it was out hitting Scuds, even though it wasn't (at the time) designed
>>as an anti-missile system.

>My understanding was the DURING the Gulf War they were raving about the
>Patriot, but then AFTER the Gulf War they found out it was a bunch of
>propaganda and that the Patriot actually sucked in that role.

During the war, the pentagon was able to give its spin, which
(of course) was pretty enthusiastic.  After the war, opponents
weighed in with their own spin that it was useless (which, also
of course, was taken as the "true" evaluation by those that
were already inclined that way).  The real story is likely
in between.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:44:15 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)

> I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.  Is it meant to submerge?
> Because with that big wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater
> and you wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.

But it looks good!!!  A perfect example of form out-performing 
function!  Come on ... exercise a little cinematic license and just go 
with the flow (no pun intended).


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:42:47 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Clif  wrote:

>Thanks for the input, Matt.

You're welcome.

>>Assuming you mean an M-60 category for machinegun, and an Uzi for SMG,
>>these should be reversed. Inside, you're more likely to be able to get
>>an Uzi / MP-5K / Skorpion on target while the guy with the heavy tool is
>>still thinking about it.
>
>I agree, but I tried to factor in the penetration potential of the LMG,
>blowing through furniture that the SMG wouldn't.  I guess the speed would
>take precedence.

That, and the fact that a burst of SMG bullets is going to go straight
through most common furnishings.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:35:49 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

From: Samir 
> Imagine an enemy in traveller that uses the vietnam era tactics on
imperial
> troops. Soon the troops would not want to leave starbase without a full
> armed platoon to do R and R. A bad mix is soldiers with guns in an R and
R
> zone. (it's armed additude.) don't say it cannot happen. it has happened
in
> the past already. The Propaganda alone would force several alliances to
> consider if it was worthwhile to be aligned with the goverment. A bad
> enough terrorist group could cause the imperial garrison to want to
decide
> if cleansing the planet is a viable option.

You mean good enough freedom fighters, don't you? :)

Anyway, yes this is the goal.  It's how you equalise the technological gap
that will usually exist.  You can't win hearts and minds from inside an
APC, or, probably, from inside Battle Dress.  Toys don't win wars, people
do.
 
> who can take a building better the army or the marines?
> 
> the marines use machine guns and grenades.
> 
> the army, three year lease with option to buy.

I like!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:14:31 -0800
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)

Just out of curiousity...does anyone else see 'flying sub' (from Voyage to
the Bottom of the Sea) influences in the layout of the Safari ship?

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)


> I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.  Is it meant to submerge?
> Because with that big wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater
> and you wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.

But it looks good!!!  A perfect example of form out-performing
function!  Come on ... exercise a little cinematic license and just go
with the flow (no pun intended).


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:16:37 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)

First thing I thought of when I saw the illustration in G:T.
Jesse




>Just out of curiousity...does anyone else see 'flying sub' (from Voyage to
>the Bottom of the Sea) influences in the layout of the Safari ship?
>
>douglas
>
>E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
>http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
>IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
>People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
>  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:58 PM
>Subject: Re: Aqua Safari Ship (was : Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser)
>
>
>> I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.  Is it meant to submerge?
>> Because with that big wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater
>> and you wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.
>
>But it looks good!!!  A perfect example of form out-performing
>function!  Come on ... exercise a little cinematic license and just go
>with the flow (no pun intended).
>
>
>- - -
>FELIX (Thomas L Bont)
>
>- Encrypt your messages!
>  That way only the government knows what you wrote!
>
>- It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!
>
>- With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)
>
>- Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto
>
>- Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.
>
>Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
>     http://www.felixcafe.com/
>
>- - -
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:33:10 +0100
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

>From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>

>When the colonization effort was organized in the 21st, the Germans would
>have the bulk of the space experience.  The Scandanavian groups probably
>offered funding and selected expertise.  This might make them powerful in
>colonial affairs, disproportionate with their small numbers.

Well, up in the north of Sweden we *do* have a launch site. (Esrange -
http://www.ssc.se/esrange/esr_indx.html ) I know Norway has a satellite
tracking site (http://www.tss.no/info/) but I don't think they actually
launch anything from there. (Not that it's likely anything major will ever
be launched from Esrange. But still. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:41:13 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

Samir wrote:

>>>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>>>its way through the bush.
>
>in jungles that means both parties are really close!

Slight correction - it means that both parties are really close *at the
actual moment of contact*. If you are blasting away at anything that
moves, I might well detect you a fair ways off.

>>You hear a noise.
>>You blast off a magazine (each) of ammo at the target.
>>It turns out to be a snake/critter.
>>You have just used a chunk of your basic load.
>>If I am nearby, I now *know* that you are, and which direction you are
>>in 
>
>Even if you do know, in a jungle enviroment you could still not find the
>enemy. A good source of Info on this would be most Vietnam era books. Some
>Jungles were so dense that if you were not with in 2 ft of your buddies,
>you could get lost. A firefight
>that took place 200 ft away might as well have been a hundred miles away.

There's a difference between the US Army in Vietnam - flushed with
conscripts, fighting an unpopular war far from home with an unfriendly
local populace - and (say) a professional army fighting in a jungle it
knows well.

If you can't tell the difference between small arms at 200ft and 200
miles, you should really be in the Navy.

>>The answer is: The second. Troops with the second philosophy are likely
>>to be well trained and well disciplined, and will most likely detect and
>>engage less disciplined, poorer quality troops before they are located.
>>They are also less likely to run out of ammo when they need it.
>
>I disagree in part. Both philosphies have strength and weakness, yes it is
>a good idea to identify your enemy first but who is the enemy? there are a
>zillion examples of the enemy in disquise as innocent civilians, the USA
>has an informal policy. shoot anything that dos'nt immediatly surrender.
>When I was stationed in Korea on the DMZ our orders were. 'If you see
>ANYONE in this area (the DMZ) during your patrol, shoot them first then see
>who they were.' 

Specific areas like the DMZ in Korea are *not* a good model for general
engagement doctrine.

>In or about 1985, Bravo Company 1st/17th was stationed on the Korean DMZ
>(they had been stationed there for about a year as I understand it) during
>one of the nights a ground radar tech detected a lone enemy presence slowly
>creeping toward the guard tower. The unit was put on alert, weapons were
>manned and aimed at the location.
>When everyone was ready the commander ordered the interperter to order the
>intruder to surrender. The figure on the radar stopped. But did not
>surrender. a few mins later the intruder started forward again. The signal
>to fire was given and the unit poured hundreds of rounds into the area of
>the intruder. A squad was sent in to identify the remains of the
>individual. It was a mess. The target had been hit several times by most of
>the weapons fire. They searched until they found all of the body parts
>of... a Deer. 

So buy low-light vision gear. Point being, if there was a NK
infiltration taking place nearby, you just a. told them where you are
and b. that you are awake.

>who can take a building better the army or the marines?
>
>the marines use machine guns and grenades.
>
>the army, three year lease with option to buy. 

The old joke: A junior officer from each of the services is ordered to
secure a house.

The Navy lieutenant (jg) orders someone to turn off all the lights, and
lock the doors and windows.

The Army 2nd Lieutenant occupies the building with his platoon, then
prepares to repel an assault.

The Marine 2nd Lieutenant has the building shelled from afar, and then
assaults the crater under cover of smoke.

The Air Force Lieutenant gets a three year lease with option to buy.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:27:36 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Clif wrote:

>>The M2, when it came out, was the best IFV on the market.
>
>I read that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle was a boon-doggle in that it
>couldn't carry a full squad?  Or was that there were more seats than a squad
>had soldiers?  In other words, the complaint was that it was designed around
>organizational conventions and for some reason, which I can't remember, this
>was a REAL BAD THING.  *shrugs*  Hard to "squaddie" (sp?) an armored vehicle
>without enough seats, unless you want some of your soldiers to sit on the
>outside, somewhere, and duck whenever they wanted to train the MG on
>someone.  (Was there also a problem with it not floating like it was touted
>to do?)

You want a good infantry fighting vehicle (Bradley) vice a `battlefield
taxi' (M-113), you need to make changes. We did exactly the same thing
when we shifted from the FV-432 to the Warrior. It's like complaining
that a new warship has a different compliment to the one it's replacing.
It shouldn't be that hard to change the manning. It would be hard,
however, to make an IFV with all the capabilities of an M2 but seating
twice as many people.

Compare the M2 to other vehicles in the same timescale - BMP-1 and -2s;
Marders; BTRs. It's good kit.

I don't think that the US Army plans to swim it's fighting vehicles.

>> Sure, there
>>are better, newer things today (I'm a BMP-3 fan myself). As for Patriot
>>- it was out hitting Scuds, even though it wasn't (at the time) designed
>>as an anti-missile system.
>
>My understanding was the DURING the Gulf War they were raving about the
>Patriot, but then AFTER the Gulf War they found out it was a bunch of
>propaganda and that the Patriot actually sucked in that role.

At the time, everyone thought they were doing great. It turned out that,
while they were hitting bits of SCUD, they were mostly spent boosters
and not the warheads. However, Patriot was *not* designed to kill
missiles, and the fact that it got some SCUDs was good news. The mod. to
make it an anti-missile missile postdates the Gulf War.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:30:17 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>The M2 Bradley is designed to carry six infantry.  The Divison 86 standard
>infantry squad has eleven people.  Slight problem.

So, the manning levels got readjusted, and the fighting doctrine
changed.

>Back in the day, when we used M113A3s, we regularly got 15+ people in to a
>single vehicle, with rucksacks.  This was not comfortable in the least,
>especially after two weeks int he field, but it worked.  You could also get
>four or five guys riding on the cargo hatch.  That was a great vehicle.

Well, excepting that it was vulnerable to heavy machinegun fire; had
zero anti-tank capability; and was about half the speed of the tanks it
was supposed to support, yes.

>The biggest complaint from the grunts was that we needed an entire MOS to
>drive the bloody things.  11M.  Anybody could drive a -113 with very little
>training.  Not so with the Bradley.

I thought that 11 Mikes were the troops who fought from Bradleys, not
just the drivers.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:47:19 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Magazines?

Dear Folks -

1.   Magazine Query

Kurt asked:
>What would be a good size for the magazines on a 2000ton ship
>with one 50 ton missile bay?

Assumption: you are using MegaTraveller. ;-)

From the errata somewhere:
100-ton missile bays hold 100 missiles, broken into two battery-rounds of
50 missiles each.
50-ton missile bays hold 50 missiles, broken into 2 battery-rounds of 25
missiles each.

25 battery-rounds of nuclear missiles is 25 x 25 = 625 nuclear missiles =
62.5 kl, 43.75 tons, and costs MCr125.
50 battery-rounds of HE missiles is 50 x 25 = 1250 missiles = 125 kl, 62.5
tons, and costs MCr25.

...or about 13 disp tons in total.

Kurt, why not multiply your ammo by 3 or 4?
     100 battery-rounds of nukes is 100 x 25
          = 2500 missiles
          = 250 kl, 175 tons, MCr375.
     150 battery-rounds of HE is 150 x 25
          = 3750 missiles
          = 375 kl, 187.5 tons, MCr75.

In total, 250 + 375 = 625 kl (about 46 disp tons).

In comparison, one 50-ton bay (empty) is 675 kl.

2.   Bays as Magazines

What are people's views on the suggested use of bays as magazines? I mean,
I assume that you add the weight of the missiles when calculating "Loaded
Weight". For example, the rules state that a 100-ton bay can hold 13500
missiles. This is 675 tons of conventional missiles or 945 tons of nukes -
not an inconsiderable tonnage.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:57:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Deckplan Orientation

What are the arguments for/against decks being oriented parallel or
perpendicular to thrust?  It seems to me that given the existence of grav
plates, the decks should just be oriented any way you like, but some seem
to think that parallel to thrust is wrong.  I'm not sure I understand why.
Wouldn't it just make sense to make the decks so that they're parallel to
the ground when the ship has landed?

Charles C.

- -----
It is a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:15:21 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: URL change for my Traveller site

Dear TML'ers,

Thought I'd let everyone know that the URL to access my Traveller site has
changed.  We've finally got around to re-vamping our whole site and the
directory structure has changed.  Here's the new URL for the Trav specific
stuff:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

That link is a gateway into the rest of my Traveller site so you oughta'
bookmark that one lest the target changes.  You can also still go in through
the front door at:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com

if you want to take the full tour.  Make sure you wear your hard hat as
there's still construction going on.

Time to go home, have a beer, and try to do all the modelling for the
Donosev this evening.  I'll keep everyone posted.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:34:11 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

Walt Smith wrote:
> [The Patrol Cruiser drawing] looks like an
> unstreamlined ship, though...would this be
> a partially streamlined variant off the type T?

Well, it's as streamlined as the classic Empress
Marava.  I may modify the drawing a little to make
it appear a little smoother.

Joe Pettit wrote:
> I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.
> Is it meant to submerge? Because with that big
> wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater
> and you wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.

The wings are actually intended to be a means
of locomotion in the water, being flexable /
mechanical in nature.   I added a comment to
the drawing that should clear up your concerns....

btw:  Thanks Mr. Bont.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:51:42 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Coolness Under Fire

Date sent:      	Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:41:13 +0000
From:           	Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>

>Clif wrote:

>>Okay.  The situation is in the jungle.  Both parties hear the other making
>>its way through the bush.    There is no visual confirmation, yet.  It is a
>>war zone.

>>Which school of thought represents a higher skill level?

>You hear a noise.
>You blast off a magazine (each) of ammo at the target.
>It turns out to be a snake/critter.
>You have just used a chunk of your basic load.
>If I am nearby, I now *know* that you are, and which direction you are
>in.

When I was young and stupid, I was taught a 'trick' called "recon by fire". 
Basically if you thought their might be a body of troops hiding in say a wood, 
you'd squeeze off a few bursts from your GPMG hoping they'd return fire. It was 
far from guaranteed effective, but even on excerises you'd be suprised how 
often supposedly trained people fell for it.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:51:42 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

Date sent:      	Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:12:45 -0700
From:           	Samir <samir@chisp.net>

>niether. the above represents a scenerio. no skill was present. I read a
>story of a vietnam incounter; a patrol was hoofing it through a jungle, saw
>some hefty movement unloaded into the bush thinking a VC patrol was about
>to jump em, instead they got a really upset gorilla. who proceded to show
>them why you don't piss off animals that are really strong.

Gorilla? Vietnam?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #158
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 17 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 159



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Recom by Fire
Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)
Those who support delusions
Re: HIWG CD cost/availability
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Return of SayBOOM
Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)
Re: Return of SayBOOM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Recom by Fire

I heard of another version of Recon by fire, where a sniper would space
single rounds 6" apart along the woodline.  If you hear someone scream, you
know there is someone there.  I must have gotten the concept wrong, 'cause
right now, reciting it, it sounds like suicide.

- --Clif

>When I was young and stupid, I was taught a 'trick' called "recon by fire".
Basically if you thought their might be a body of troops hiding in say a
wood,
you'd squeeze off a few bursts from your GPMG hoping they'd return fire. It
was
far from guaranteed effective, but even on excerises you'd be suprised how
often supposedly trained people fell for it.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

It was probably guerilla, but the author spelled it wrong.

- --Clif



>niether. the above represents a scenerio. no skill was present. I read a
>story of a vietnam incounter; a patrol was hoofing it through a jungle, saw
>some hefty movement unloaded into the bush thinking a VC patrol was about
>to jump em, instead they got a really upset gorilla. who proceded to show
>them why you don't piss off animals that are really strong.

Gorilla? Vietnam?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:29:28 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Those who support delusions

>Posted by: Julie Garth at the WebRPG
> Date: 01/27/1999 10:47 
>On the January 21st episode of the sitcom known as "Jesse", NBC began 
>what I have heard described as a general attack on the gaming 
>community. In the episode, the title character went on a date with >her 
math teacher. The math teacher said that they were going to a >"club" he 
knew. The "club" turned out to be a Dungeons & Dragons >gaming session. 
The episode became more offensive after that. When >the Dungeon Master 
appeared, the players actually got on their knees >and apparently 
worshipped him. (This is actually something that >anti-gaming groups 
have accused us of.) Furthermore, the players >acted like they were 
completely and utterly out of touch with reality >- Jesse had to ask for 
a "magic voice transporter" to find out
>where the phone was, for instance. We were called "geeks" multiple 
>times, and when Jesse called one friend and told her she was playing 
>Dungeons & Dragons the friend yelled "GET OUT OF THERE NOW!!" The 
>friend then went on to tell her that the only way to get out of the 
>game was to have her character die. 
>The gaming community in general (or at least those I have talked to) 
>finds this offensive and inappropriate... [edited for brevity]
>Julie Garth


I used to think television shows and the movies would make this stuff up 
just for ratings.  But after discussing this with Clif and seeing that 
there are others who agree with him, maybe those shows aren't so far 
fetched?   ;)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:23:32 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD cost/availability

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> A rough list of what can be found on the CD is located at:
> members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/

How often is the CD updated?  (New magazines, TML archives,
software, etc)

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:29:10 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Dude, thanks for that post!  I missed that episode.  I don't usually watch
Jesse, but saw the commercial for that and was interested.  Now I know what
happened.  I got from you, by chance, what I couldn't get from Jesse and D&D
fans.
'
- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clay _ <baalan@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 9:22 PM
Subject: Those who support delusions


>>Posted by: Julie Garth at the WebRPG
>> Date: 01/27/1999 10:47
>>On the January 21st episode of the sitcom known as "Jesse", NBC began
>>what I have heard described as a general attack on the gaming
>>community. In the episode, the title character went on a date with >her
>math teacher. The math teacher said that they were going to a >"club" he
>knew. The "club" turned out to be a Dungeons & Dragons >gaming session.
>The episode became more offensive after that. When >the Dungeon Master
>appeared, the players actually got on their knees >and apparently
>worshipped him. (This is actually something that >anti-gaming groups
>have accused us of.) Furthermore, the players >acted like they were
>completely and utterly out of touch with reality >- Jesse had to ask for
>a "magic voice transporter" to find out
>>where the phone was, for instance. We were called "geeks" multiple
>>times, and when Jesse called one friend and told her she was playing
>>Dungeons & Dragons the friend yelled "GET OUT OF THERE NOW!!" The
>>friend then went on to tell her that the only way to get out of the
>>game was to have her character die.
>>The gaming community in general (or at least those I have talked to)
>>finds this offensive and inappropriate... [edited for brevity]
>>Julie Garth
>
>
>I used to think television shows and the movies would make this stuff up
>just for ratings.  But after discussing this with Clif and seeing that
>there are others who agree with him, maybe those shows aren't so far
>fetched?   ;)
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:35:09 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 12:54 PM 2/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >I read that the Bradley Fighting Vehicle was a boon-doggle in that it
> >couldn't carry a full squad? 

<<snip>>
> 
> The M2 Bradley is designed to carry six infantry.  The Divison 86 standard
> infantry squad has eleven people.  Slight problem.
> 
I am reminded of the passage from the book _The Defense of Hill 781_
(set in Purgatory a.k.a. the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin), in
which the protagonist, Lieutenant Colonel A. Tack Always, who had spent
all of his career in airborne/light infantry units, had to command a
battalion task force in Purgatory, and couldn't leave until he beat the
OPFOR.  LTC Always realized at one point that he had commanded airborne
infantry companies that could put more dismounted infantrymen on the
battlefield than his entire mech infantry _battalion task force_.

<<snip>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:38:13 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Well, if looks likes PDF has gained something of a consensus.

I'd still suggest GIFs or JPGs.  Those formats go beyond
just Macs and Intel machines.  What type of compression (if
any) does PDF offer?  Given the nature of deckplans, I'm sure
that they compress very well under the RLE (run length encoding)
scheme that GIF uses. There's also the easy viewing via the
web or a browser.  Finally, there are a number of free PBEM
gaming aids (mine included) that directly import images for
use as maps.

Acrobat in any form is an additional download and converting
back to GIF/JPG is tedious at best.  I can see using PDF if
you want to have better control against alteration.  But, that
is going to leave a lot of GMs that want to customize a deck
plan in a lurch.

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:50:40 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

Another aspect to this topic.
Technology would play an important part in the linguistic development of the
colony world which has been described.  If the colony went through a period of
low technology as the population spread across the world's surface, it would
be expected that the various languages would not only remain in existance, but
additional dialects would likely arise in the backwaters.  Remember, when a
community is isolated, it is much more likely to go off on its own
linguistically.
On the other hand, if the colony enjoyed an advanced communications and
transportation system from the start, it becomes much more likely that the
dominant language, in this case German, would provide the basis for a new
world tongue after several generations.  
In the early years of the colony, resources would probably not be available
for the luxury of multiple, competing, communications infrastructures, and co-
ordinating the small population base would demand the use of a "lingua franca"
based on the language understood by the majority of the populace.  With
universal electronic communication and gravitic mobility present, communities
would not be able to develop or maintain their own dialects in isolation, and
would be subject to a homogenizing influence by the mass culture.  This is not
to say that all differences would be quickly wiped out, but it would be likely
that a high tech version of this colony would see the minority languages meld
into the majority over generations. 
Even if there were some sort of "Scandinavian" elite, barring some odd
discrepancy in birth rates, it would remain outnumbered by the Germanic
underclass.  This situation is rather similar to the situation encountered by
the Normans in England after the conquest.  There, the French speaking
aristocracy was assimilated by the Anglo-Saxon majority, generating a new
language in the process.  IMO, this would occur much quicker in our
hypothetical colony, as all of the populace shares common linguistic roots.
For those interested in a good introduction to this subject and the
possibilities, I can recommend that you pick up a copy of "The Story of
English", based on a PBS show of the same title.  It's an easy read, and very
informative.  
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:01:25 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >My understanding was the DURING the Gulf War they were raving about the
> >Patriot, but then AFTER the Gulf War they found out it was a bunch of
> >propaganda and that the Patriot actually sucked in that role.
> 
> During the war, the pentagon was able to give its spin, which
> (of course) was pretty enthusiastic.  After the war, opponents
> weighed in with their own spin that it was useless (which, also
> of course, was taken as the "true" evaluation by those that
> were already inclined that way).  The real story is likely
> in between.

Using Patriot in the ABM role was important in the '91 Gulf War,
regardless of how effective it really was.  It helped maintain the
morale of the REMFs that were stationed in SCUD target areas.  There are
few things more terrifying than a weapon against which you have _no_
defense.  And, since the aforementioned REMFs were the ones giving those
of us further forward the logistical support we needed to do _our_ jobs,
keeping their morale up (so that they would do their jobs) was a _good_
thing. 

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:34:11 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

>
> Joe Pettit wrote:
> > I wanted to comment on that Aqua Safari ship.
> > Is it meant to submerge? Because with that big
> > wing you'll find that it is TOO stable underwater
> > and you wouldn't be able to maneuver at all.
>
> The wings are actually intended to be a means
> of locomotion in the water, being flexable /
> mechanical in nature.   I added a comment to
> the drawing that should clear up your concerns....

That could be extraordinarily difficult  to do from a mechanical
standpoint.  However, if you use the fact that they are tanks,
presumably with baffles and pumps, you could postulate a locomotion
based on pumping fluid around inside the wings and thus causing an
undulating motion.  I believe spiders use this method to move their
legs, they pump blood into them to extend them.  If you then hypothesize
that an arachnid race designed the vessel... or at the very least
contributed to the wing design...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:07:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I saw that 
> he had rules for damage from solar flares while conducting an 
> EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide protection from solar 
> radiation...I have no hard science background so I'm not sure on weather 
> flares would distrup in-system  communications as well..Just some 
> thought...

The radiation from a flare requires several *meters* of water (or the
equivalent) as shielding. Metallic shielding is useless as the high
energy protons will generate *secondary* particle showers that will
result in *worse* damage on the other side. 

Even at TL-15 I can't see a spacesuit being able to protect against a
major flare. 

Suits protect from *normal* radiation. And may provide some protection
in the early stages of a flare or in a planetary radiation belt. Not in
a gas giant's radiation belt though.

Think of flares as being like hurricanes. The only protection is being
behind something big and solid.

Oh yeah, flares are directional. In other words, they affect a conical
area extending out from the surface of the star. The edges will be a
bit fuzzy. 

So the mainworld may be quite safe while a belter 60 degrees away is
getting fried.

Any of the resident astronomers know how "wide" flares are? And what
typical radiation levels are?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:48:46 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Todd,

The problem with GIF/JPG is that they really aren't very changeable. I
prefer to work in a vector based program (Corel draw in my case) I ca
convert to GIF/JPG but thent he plan becomes very akward. 

As far as compression. I've sent a number of Dplans around the web, in
many formats. GIF/JPG even zipped is usually larger than the pdf
formated file. I also work big, 1/2 inch squares mostly, and the latest
I'm working on is 1 inch, fully play able for 25mm. These files as
GIF/JPG are large, as vectors larger, while the pdf's are smaller by a
large factor. 

Also I have never, intentionally, "locked" any of the data in the pdf's. 

Another plus to pdf is that text (discriptions, adventures, etc.) can be
included. The conversion process to Gif/JPG may be tedious but there are
a number of plus' to the format that makes that worthwhile (IMHO).

Mike

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
> 
> Well, if looks likes PDF has gained something of a consensus.
> 
> I'd still suggest GIFs or JPGs.  Those formats go beyond
> just Macs and Intel machines.  What type of compression (if
> any) does PDF offer?  Given the nature of deckplans, I'm sure
> that they compress very well under the RLE (run length encoding)
> scheme that GIF uses. There's also the easy viewing via the
> web or a browser.  Finally, there are a number of free PBEM
> gaming aids (mine included) that directly import images for
> use as maps.
> 
> Acrobat in any form is an additional download and converting
> back to GIF/JPG is tedious at best.  I can see using PDF if
> you want to have better control against alteration.  But, that
> is going to leave a lot of GMs that want to customize a deck
> plan in a lurch.
> 
> --
> TAZ

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:16:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Return of SayBOOM

>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:52:51
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: More FS internal memos
>
>
>Dear Hengie,
>
>I'm sorry to hear about the empiebeh gun (even the name is sooo cutsie)
not 
>being ready in time ...
>
>I've got a teensy weeeensy minor problem. I seem to have got myself
involved in
>a duel, and having had oooooh six too many strawberry daquaries I
declared the 
>challenge to be one using a man-powered particle acclerator - I mean,
fission is 
>icky and you just *cant* put a fusion plus powerplant in a nice
loincloth.
>
>So Hengie dear, could you do the preliminary work for me on how many
manly manly
>men I would need to power a 25 megawatt spaceship-mounted particle
accelerator, 
>and the air scrubbing system and so on so the manly manly men dont go
that 
>naaaaasty blue colour from anoxia. I mean, anoxia *is* fun, but only with
the 
>proper preperation and aftercare ... 
>
>Yours with kisses,
>
>Davar

The Sayat Board for Optimization and Operationalization of Munitions is
belatedly pleased to offer:

MANLY-MAN-POWERED DUELLING FIGHTER

Hull: 35 displacement ton, needle airframe configuration (pour la style);
internal structure for 1G, hull plating 2cm superdense (AV 28) 
Controls: Dynamic linked; two bridge workstations (duelist, electronics)
and one regular (gun crew)
Electronics: 30,000km laser & 3000km radio communicators; 30,000km PEMS
and 30,000km LADAR; one standard TL-12 computer
Amenities: extended life support; no grav compensation (uses too much
energy); no airlocks. 
Weaponry: TL-C 25Mj N-PAW (see below); 30,000km beam pointer; no MFD
(unsporting) 
Power: 308 cubic meters of manly man, producing 1.55 MW; 100 hours fuel 
Drives: none
Cost: MCr10.368 (not including manly men, loincloths, whip) 
Spare: 46m3 and a few kilowatts

25Mj N-PAW (TL-C)
Diamter: 1.875m    Length 15m         ROF 10           MW input 0.694 
Volume:  55.67m3   Mass: 44.763 tons  Cost: MCr4.306 
Short Range: 30,000km (effective range 31,063km) 
Pen Value: 25.9 /	12.9 / 6.5 / 3.2

Designed using FFS (original), plus CSC for "rower" power source.

Note that every component is muscle-powered.  Grav compensation and
contragrav lifters couldn't be included as their power requirements
outstrips the rate at which you can pack more manly men into a hull.  It
_would_ be feasible to add ion drives for limited in-space maneuvering,
but at extremely low accelerations, and I suspected this might fall
outside the scope of the challenge.

Bon appetit!

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:27:17 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> What are the arguments for/against decks being oriented parallel or
> perpendicular to thrust?  It seems to me that given the existence of grav
> plates, the decks should just be oriented any way you like, but some seem
> to think that parallel to thrust is wrong.  I'm not sure I understand why.
> Wouldn't it just make sense to make the decks so that they're parallel to
> the ground when the ship has landed?
> 
> Charles C.
> 
Without taking sides in the Great Debate, I'll sum up a few arguments
for each position (these are from memory of the debate a while back, so
I may have forgotten some issues):

FOR PARALLEL DECKS:

1.  More efficient dirtside cargo handling.  Parallel deck designs can
have more of the cargo area closer to the ground than most perpendicular
deck designs.

2.  Resistance to meson gun fire.  Of all streamlined hull forms in High
Guard, the needle/wedge is most resistant to meson gun fire.  A
perpendicular deck needle/wedge ship would have a vast number of
relatively small decks, as ships of this configuration tend to be long,
relative to height and width.  Perpendicular decks are most efficient in
more compact hull forms, such as the sphere or flattended sphere.  These
hull forms are much more vulnerable (under High Guard) to meson gun fire
than the needle/wedge.

3.  Stability on the ground.  If one intends to land a given starship,
then one has three basic options:

	a.  Design the ship with parallel decks, and land it much as one would
land a 20th century airplane.

	b.  Design the ship using a compact hull form, with perpendicular
decks.  This works all right, unless the ship needs to be built to
resist meson guns under High Guard.

	c.  Design the ship to be a tall tail-lander.  If the designer chooses
the needle/wedge hull form (for High Guard resistance to meson gun
fire), and further chooses perpendicular decks, then the ship on the
ground would be a relatively tall structure, on a relatively narrow
base.  Such a design would be unusually vulnerable to high winds or
seismic tremors.

4.  Aerodynamics.  Ships optimized for atmospheric performance tend to
be long and narrow (needle/wedge, cone, or cylinder configurations). 
These tend to favor parallel deck design.  Further, ships intended to
spend significant amounts of time in atmosphere are, by definition,
expected to spend time inside the gravity well of whatever body holds
the atmosphere within which they are expected to operate.  Once gravity
becomes a dominant issue in ship orientation, then, in an aerodynamic
hull form such as the needle/wedge, deck orientation becomes important. 
Under gravity, in an aerodynamic hull form, parallel decks offer the
advantage of having the decks aligned with the force of planetary
gravity. 

5.  Aesthetics.  There are some who think that a needle/wedge ship just
looks kewl.  (This is most important in yachts [which truly _must_ look
kewl, regardless of practical considerations] and warships [which need
to have that "right-end/ wrong-end" factor, to achieve maximum
intimidation].)  Since (as mentioned above) such ships work best with a
parallel deck layout, such ships will generally _have_ a parallel deck
layout.

FOR PERPENDICULAR DECKS:

1.  Less need for artificial gravity.  A perpendicular deck ship can use
1-G of thrust to provide a reasonable semblance of gravity.  This works,
even if the artificial gravity fails entirely.  A parallel deck ship's
crew would have far more problems functioning effectively than that of a
perpendicular deck ship's, should the artificial gravity have problems.

2.  Lower power usage for artificial gravity/inertial compensation.  As
a corollary of point 1, a perpendicular deck ship can get by with less
inerial compensation, and thus use less power.  Since the power plant of
a ship is among the most expensive components, this means that, Dton for
Dton, a perpendicular deck ship will be less expensive, and therefore
more profitable, than a parallel deck ship. 

3.  Less need for contra-grav drives.  Since perpendicular deck ships
tend to be tail-landers, they have little or no need for a CG drive in
atmosphere (their main drive thrust will be directly opposed to the pull
of gravity anyway).  As in point 2 above, this means less power draw,
and fewer crewmembers required, and therefore lower costs (and greater
profitability).  Parallel deck ships, OTOH, will need either honkin' big
CG drives or long runways to launch from dirtside.

4.  More efficient armoring.  In T4's FF&S2, armor is purchased based on
surface area.  Since compact hull forms, such as the sphere, are best
suited for perpendicular deck ships, perpendicular deck designs will
need less mass and volume of armor to achieve a given thickness.  This
means that a smaller (and thus less power-hungry) maneuver drive will be
needed to move a perpendicular deck ship.  Again, this results in a
smaller power plant, and fewer crew needed to operate the ship. 
CHA-CHINGGG!

5.  Many ships never land.  If the ship is not intended to sit on the
dirt, why design it to roll its belly in the mud?  Most ships over a few
hundred Dtons rarely (if ever) actually land.  Given all the factors in
favor of perpendicular decks, why design around an improbable event?

BOTTOM LINE:

If, IYTU, artificial gravity and inertial compensation are proven
technologies, and configuration issues argue in favor of needle/wedge
ships, then parallel decks make more sense.  If, OTOH, artificial
gravity/inertial compensation are prone to failure, and/or
configuration/cost analysis favors compact ship designs, then go with
the perpendicular deck concept.

> -----
> It is a little-known fact that the Y1K problem caused the Dark Ages...

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:28:40 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

You sick little monkies....<best Robocop voice>  IIIIIIII LLLLIKE it!!  :)

Jesse D.


>
>>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:52:51
>>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Subject: More FS internal memos
>>
>>
>>Dear Hengie,
>>
>>I'm sorry to hear about the empiebeh gun (even the name is sooo cutsie)
>not 
>>being ready in time ...
>>
>>I've got a teensy weeeensy minor problem. I seem to have got myself
>involved in
>>a duel, and having had oooooh six too many strawberry daquaries I
>declared the 
>>challenge to be one using a man-powered particle acclerator - I mean,
>fission is 
>>icky and you just *cant* put a fusion plus powerplant in a nice
>loincloth.
>>
>>So Hengie dear, could you do the preliminary work for me on how many
>manly manly
>>men I would need to power a 25 megawatt spaceship-mounted particle
>accelerator, 
>>and the air scrubbing system and so on so the manly manly men dont go
>that 
>>naaaaasty blue colour from anoxia. I mean, anoxia *is* fun, but only with
>the 
>>proper preperation and aftercare ... 
>>
>>Yours with kisses,
>>
>>Davar
>
>The Sayat Board for Optimization and Operationalization of Munitions is
>belatedly pleased to offer:
>
>MANLY-MAN-POWERED DUELLING FIGHTER
>
>Hull: 35 displacement ton, needle airframe configuration (pour la style);
>internal structure for 1G, hull plating 2cm superdense (AV 28) 
>Controls: Dynamic linked; two bridge workstations (duelist, electronics)
>and one regular (gun crew)
>Electronics: 30,000km laser & 3000km radio communicators; 30,000km PEMS
>and 30,000km LADAR; one standard TL-12 computer
>Amenities: extended life support; no grav compensation (uses too much
>energy); no airlocks. 
>Weaponry: TL-C 25Mj N-PAW (see below); 30,000km beam pointer; no MFD
>(unsporting) 
>Power: 308 cubic meters of manly man, producing 1.55 MW; 100 hours fuel 
>Drives: none
>Cost: MCr10.368 (not including manly men, loincloths, whip) 
>Spare: 46m3 and a few kilowatts
>
>25Mj N-PAW (TL-C)
>Diamter: 1.875m    Length 15m         ROF 10           MW input 0.694 
>Volume:  55.67m3   Mass: 44.763 tons  Cost: MCr4.306 
>Short Range: 30,000km (effective range 31,063km) 
>Pen Value: 25.9 / 12.9 / 6.5 / 3.2
>
>Designed using FFS (original), plus CSC for "rower" power source.
>
>Note that every component is muscle-powered.  Grav compensation and
>contragrav lifters couldn't be included as their power requirements
>outstrips the rate at which you can pack more manly men into a hull.  It
>_would_ be feasible to add ion drives for limited in-space maneuvering,
>but at extremely low accelerations, and I suspected this might fall
>outside the scope of the challenge.
>
>Bon appetit!
>
>Kenji
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #159
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 18 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 160



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deck plan format 
Re: Return of SayBOOM
UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)
Re : alien biology question
Re: CT Belter Operations Rules
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Scandinavian languages
FS: Traveller Items - all incarnations
FS: Traveller items - all incarnations
Character Generation Again (was Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll)
Re: ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Alien biology question LONG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:41:56 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deck plan format 

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>writes:
>As far as compression. I've sent a number of Dplans around the web, in
>many formats. GIF/JPG even zipped is usually larger than the pdf
>formated file. I also work big, 1/2 inch squares mostly, and the latest
>I'm working on is 1 inch, fully play able for 25mm. These files as
>GIF/JPG are large, as vectors larger, while the pdf's are smaller by a
>large factor. 

Great!  An excuse to finish painting all those 25mm miniatures...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:42:05 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Kenji Schwarz wrote:
> 
<<snips truly impressive and equally twisted man-powered N-PAW fighter
design>>

Two items:

1.  SayBOOM - C'est bon!  (Yes, I've been in Louisiana a bit too
long....)

2.  Exactly how many manly men are required for this design?  And how
many girly men would be needed for the same power output?  (Girly men
and/or scrawny neighbor boys* being cheaper per each than manly men.)

Still ROTFLMAO....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

*"HELLO WISCONSIN!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:59:28 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)

Fighting Ships Format								
Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)			
                        5411112-020000-10000            MCr125.53
0.5 ktons
        Batteries Bearing    2          3
TL A
        Batteries                  2          3
Crew 10
Passengers=0. Cargo=195. Fuel=55. EP=5. Agility=0. Troops=8

        Using a 500-ton, Close Structure hull, the Belter Refinery Ship
(TypeGN) is This is the atypical "Clan" Belter refinery ship. There are
several dozen of these ships in use throughout the planetoid belts of every
region of the Terran Sphere.
          It is performance-rated at jump-1, 1-G acceleration and 5EP. Fuel
tankage for 55 tons supports the power plant and 1 jump-1. The ship is
fitted with fuel scoops and a purification plant.
        Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/1.
        There are 14 staterooms, no standard low berths and no emergency low
berths.
         The ship has 5 turrets. 3 turrets each carry a single mining laser.
For defense it has the last two each carrying three sand-casters organzied
as 1 battery per turret and an agility of 0. There is no magazine and are no
nuclear weapons normally carried.
          There is 1 ship's vehicle. A 20-ton launch is carried.
          Cargo capacity is 195 tons. 
          The hull is partially streamlined.
          An onboard Ore Smelter/ Refinery is carried, capable of up to 31
tons per hour processing.
          There are 0 tons of waste space.
          The Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN) requires a crew of 10. 1 Pilot,
1 Navigator, 2 Engineers, 5 Gunners, 1 Flight Ops and 1 Service Crew are
required. Two 4-person mining teams are also carried.
          The Flight Ops crewman operates the Ship's Boat.
          The ship costs MCr125.53, including architects fees and takes 64
months to build.
          The "Mining Team" are two four man teams who work in 8-on/8-off
shifts doing nothing else but ensuring that a steady stream of raw material
is flowing into the maw of the refinery. The sand-caster gunners are usually
rotated through the mining laser turrets to spell those gunners off during
operations. A well-seasoned team can fill the hold of a Cape Breton in less
than 7 hours
        -----------------------------

        The SSD is at my web page
("http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller") on the "Jane's Catalog" page.
This ship is designed for use with the "Belter Operations Rules" that Kevin
Walsh and I are tinkering with.  An explanation of these rules are found at
the bottom of the "House Rules" page on my site.

        Presuming that she refuels for free by skimming and operates as a
"Clan" ship paying shares not salaries, she needs one load a month at a PPT
Breakpoint of 1,442.14 Cr per ton to break even.  Presuming that she can do
two round-trips to the Belt in a month, has someone on board with a
Prospecting skill and someone on board with Admin-1 and Broker-1, she can
pretty much make money under any conditions.  Execept combat, where her
three mining lasers each function as Pulse Lasers -1.

        The seven-hour turn-around time is a bit of a marketing brochure.
It presumes almost pure ore going through the smelter.  The average will be
closer to *70* hours (10% average purity).

        As always, comments, corrections and questions are always welcome!

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:17:29 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : alien biology question

Ian Ferguson wrote :-

> For the bursts 
> of radiation from above, perhaps heavy shielding on dorsal
> surfaces (such shielding does not necessarily provide
> physical protection, but would probably be dense...with
> lead deposits? maybe they are resistant to heavy metal
> poisoning). On the other hand, they may all just hide in 
> a cave until the radiation subsides.

Polyethylene (Glad or Saran Wrap (TM)) has equivalent radioprotection
value to concrete, thickness for thickness (50% gamma attenuation over
6cm).

I would consider long-chain fatty acids with side chains to prevent
peroxidation (provide steric [spatial] hindrance, as far more likely to
be free radical mediated) more plausible from a biochemical standpoint
than lead compounds, which would have to be either in porphyrin
ring-like structures (like haemoglobin's iron or B12's cobalt), or
deposited in salt form (hydroxyapatites and other phosphates in bone) ;
lead, like all potentially reactive metals, would require special
handling systems analogous to the iron transport system found in most
earthly life.

(There is value in 'cellulite'... ;-) )

The other option is to have a 'radiator' array on the back with
compounds circulating through that convert the ambient radiation to
chemical energy, as per Leonard's 'plant'. This could be an example of a
successful evolutionary adaptation to the environment that all complex
forms have adopted on the world. 

Andy Akins wrote :-

> 4) So the race can resist radiation (which is what I wanted)...what
> price do they pay?  Suggestions I've heard are high metabolism and
> short life span (which work well with my vision)) - what unique
> health risks does such a race have? What would happen if their immune
> system broke down? How would that be better/worse than a human immune
> system disorder?

Leonard Erickson covered this point fairly well.
> The "carried away" is based on a theory about some auto
> immune disorders. If the immune system doesn't have enough to do, it so
> to speak starts "looking harder" for things that are out of spec. And
> the result is attacks on healthy tissue. 
> 

In particular, asthma.

In general :-
Autoimmunity and hypersensitivity are likely to be worse if the immune
system is enhanced.
Systemic lupus erythematosis (SLE) is a good example, as is scleroderma.

Immune system failure is lethal without complex support. End-stage HIV
infection and post-chemotherapy marrow suppression are useful examples.

The daily requirement for a minimum level of radiation is a good one ;
adds colour (as well as being a 'unique health risk'), as does Leonard's
'plant'.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer-in-waiting

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:25:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CT Belter Operations Rules

In mail you write:

>         Hi, there...  I never did like the rules in the JTAS that described
> Belting, and I found that the "Beltstrike" rules left me wondering why any
> Sophont not fit for insitutionalization would even bother.  =)  So, with the
> help of someone one evening on the #TRAVELLER IRC Undernet channel
> (Shadowcat - e-mail me with your name so I can give you credit!), I
> scratched together a set of "PC friendly" rules.
>         They are currently on my website at
> "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller".  Pick the "house-rules" button
> and hit the link on the bottom of the page.  The economics comments are
> based on MTU, where eco-damage concerns (we learned our lesson on Earth)
> precludes heavy industrial mining.  So, Belt mining is a viable alternative.
>         The only thing I had difficult reconciling was the *brutal* survival
> roles required in the Belter proffession (speaking CT here, don't forget).
> I did not include a "job hazard" step for a Belter trip, as I couldn't
> really come up with situations that wouldn't force stable, well adjusted
> folks to sell thier Seekers and become Merchants after it happened once.

I suggest that you check out the conditions that "hard rock" miners
used to put up with, and even the ones they *still* put up with.

And then check out the conditions in places like the Yukon or the
Australian opal fields. 

You have to keep in mind the fact that many prospectors *aren't*
"stable, well adjusted folks". And that *nobody* really believes that
*they* are going to make the mistake that gets them killed.

The standard "stony" bodies aren't worth a lot. The nickel iron ones
are likely worth *less* (you can at least get oxygen out of "stony"
bodies). The big payoffs are chrondites (CHON compounds, basicly
complex semi-organic "sludge"), and for the belts that are far enough
out "icy" bodies. The *huge* payoffs will be "anomalous" bodies. Things
like stony bodies that have decent crystals of various types (not
normal gemstones though, I'll have to come up with a list), high levels
of the rarer elements or nickel-iron bodies with high amounts of heavy
elements. 

Keep in mind that a lot of things such as uranium and gold tend to stay
with the stony materials rather than the nickel-iron ones.

It's also possible that strange things can be found on the rare bodies
where the boundary between stony and nickel-iron is accessible.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:42:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

> What are the arguments for/against decks being oriented parallel or
> perpendicular to thrust?  It seems to me that given the existence of grav
> plates, the decks should just be oriented any way you like, but some seem
> to think that parallel to thrust is wrong.  I'm not sure I understand why.
> Wouldn't it just make sense to make the decks so that they're parallel to
> the ground when the ship has landed?

Well, for one thing, ships *don't* have to land like airplanes. The
Delta-X proved that. And in fact, that would be a *better* setup for a
ship that is landing in "unimproved" areas. All you need is a medium
sized hunk of exposed rock. As opposed to *hoping* that the long, flat
stretch of land isn't too soft, and doesn't have "potholes" hidden by
vegetation. 

But consider this, if the grav compensators *fail* while you are under
power, in a "perpendicular" ship, you just got a lot heavier and anyone
who was actually walking around might get hurt. In a parallel ship, you
are now sitting or standing on a *wall*, and *will* get hurt unless you
are strapped into a chair that is fastened to the deck. All
bow-to-stern corridors are now open shafts. Ouch!

Also, it can be argued (though admittedly the rules don't say) that it
takes extra power for a "parallel" ship. Because it has to neutralize
all of the ships thrust, and *then* generate aritifical gravity at
right angles to the thrust.

A "perpendicular" ship only has to neutralize enough of the thrust for
the remainder to provide "normal" gravity. 

I haven't gotten around to trying to draw a "perpendicular" Type S yet,
as I don't have figures handy on how many tons to allocate for each
system (drives, fuel, etc). But my first rough cut at it indicates that
it should have only three decks. Lowest deck would be engineering, with
cargo space and fuels tanks around it. Second deck would be "living
areas" (staterooms and common spaces), and third level would be the
control room, which would have a full 360 degree field of view (ie it's
built under a transparent "dome" that forms the nose of the ship)

Basic shape of the ship would be a round nosed cone (think of an Apollo
capsule with landing legs). And this config has the advantage that it
can (in emergency situations) make an unpowered re-entry on a world
with a thin or better atmosphere and a decent hydro percentage,
possibly even without hydro if it's got a decent sized parachute
fitted. Yep, just like the old TL-8 capsules, re-enter tail first, and
splashdown, or "hard land". 

Sure the ones with an airframe config can (in theory) glide in. But
they'll need power to steer. 

ps. I bet that sufficiently gutsy Scouts have made covert landings by
imitating a meteor in the "capsule" config.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:27:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

KenRoney@aol.com writes:

>On the other hand, if the colony enjoyed an advanced communications and
>transportation system from the start, it becomes much more likely that the
>dominant language, in this case German, would provide the basis for a new
>world tongue after several generations.  
>In the early years of the colony, resources would probably not be available
>for the luxury of multiple, competing, communications infrastructures, and co-
>ordinating the small population base would demand the use of a "lingua franca"
>based on the language understood by the majority of the populace.

However, most people are capable of learning more than one language, and many
people want their children to keep their tounge alive.

Basically you can justify either outcome. It depends on the history of the
colony. If the dominant group have a political agenda that requires the
eradication of the minority languages, it becomes much more difficult to
maintain them. There are examples of communities that failed and communities
that managed. For instance, the Swedes succeded fairly quickly in eradicating
Danish from those old Danish counties they took over in the 17th Century,
while the Germans failed to do the same with the Danish in South Jutland.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:35:36 -0600
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: FS: Traveller Items - all incarnations



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:38:23 -0600
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: FS: Traveller items - all incarnations

This is a sale not an auction.  items go to the first person to respond.

Payment by Money Order or Check.  If by check, item will be held until
check clears.  Payment due within 10 days of confirmation.

Condition:

SW   -  ShrinkWrapped.  Never been opened.
Mint - Opened. Never played.  Nothing wrong with the book. (personnally,

 I have never seen anything which qualified).
NM   - Near Mint. Opened but never played.  Cover has very minor
 or no defects.  Contents are unpunched  and have never been played.
EX   -  Excellent.  Opened, maybe played once.  Partial punching of
 counters.  some wear monir wear or whiting of spine.
VG   -  Very good.  Some cover wear.  Minor discoloration.
Good -  Just what it says.  Not collector's quality, but well cared for
 and not in bad shape.
Fair -  This is as low as I will go and sell something.  Usually pretty
 worn but still playable.  Cover/box may be damage/missing.  Pieces
 will all be present, unless specifically noted.

Shipping is the responsability of the Buyer.  I will ship USPS or UPS
in the US.  I ship USPS outside the US.  Buyer pays exact shipping cost.

Insurance is extra.

If interested, please reply to the above address.


Gamelords, Ltd.
================

A Pilots Guide to the Drexilthar Subsector (NM) $7

Startown Liberty  (NM)  $7

Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure, Vol. 1  (NM)  $7


DGP
===============
Starship Operator's Manual   (NM)  $35    (x2)

Grand Survey  (NM)  $25

Grand Survey  (NM)  $25

Flaming Eye Megatraveller Adv.  (NM)  $35


GDW
==============
CT-
    Book 0 - An Introduction to Traveller  (NM)  $5

    Book 8 - Robots  (EX) $18

    Supp 3 - The Spinward Marches  (VG)  $7

    Adv. 3 - Twilight's Peak  (EX)  $10

MT-
    Knightfall Adv.  (EX)  $25

TNE-
    Vampire Fleets  (NM)  $25

    Path of Tears  (NM)  $25

    Striker II   (NM)   $30

T4-
    Game Screen  (EX)  $5

    First Survey  (NM)  $12

    Psionics Institutes  (NM)  $12

    Fire, Fusion & Steel  (NM)  $12

    Annililik Run Adv.  (NM)  $10
Judges Guild
=====================
50 Starbases   (VG+)  $20


Paranoia Press
==============
Scouts and Assassin, 1st edition, 1st printing(before GDW approved
it for traveller), signed by the author (NM)  $20

Scouts and Assassin, 1st edition, 2nd printing(before GDW approved
it for traveller), Blue coverr (NM)  $15

Scouts and Assassin, 1st edition, 3rd printing(first approved edition),
(NM) $12

Scouts and Assassin, 2st edition, 1st printing (NM)  $10

SORAG, 1st printing (NM) $15


Seeker Gaming Systems
========================
Starship deckplans - 25MM Scale

    System Defense Boat and Jump Shuttle  (NM)  $12

    Imperial Small Craft  (EX)  $12

    Lab Ship  (NM)  $12

    Gazelle Class Close Escort  (NM)  $12


Sword of Knight Publications
============================
Traveller Chronicles #4  (VG+)  $5

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 23:41:20 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Character Generation Again (was Survival Roll vs. Injury Roll)

On 02/17/99 at 07:59 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>> I disagree.  This is an integral part of the character generation process.
>> If you roll a character with an inital STR: of 2, stick him in the Belters
>> so that he can get killed off.  If unlucky enough to survive a few terms,
>> start trying for +1 Str on the Personal Development Table.  It's always a
>> riot.  I think that players love rolling up characters as much as playing.

>Yours maybe...then again, I prefer GURPS or FUDGE style directed
>chargen MUCH beter than random chargen. The players end up with
>characters they like and understand much better, hence have more fun
>playing.

Personally, I prefer a mixture of the two approaches.  For
example...

Attributes:  Let the player distribute points for Attributes, but a
portion of those points are randomly generated.  This way the
characters are NOT balanced...and that is a good thing, IMO.  Using
the Traveller 2-12 scale and 6 Attributes, give the player 42+2d6
points to distribute with no Attribute lower than 2 or greater than
12. In FUDGE terms everything is FAIR and you have 1d6 free levels.

Careers:  On entry into a career the character receives "basic
training" in a few core skills.  In many careers you *don't* get a
complete choice as to what you practice/learn, but you should always
get *some* choice.  Each term the player rolls for a skill based on
career/branch and for one based on current mission, then chooses a
skill.  The freely chosen skill can represent a hobby, but it can
also represent the character's efforts to develop skill in a
specific area.  I don't use "survival" rolls, instead it represents
injury and forced mustering out, but I'd *like* to make it a "life
events" roll that represents a range of possible life altering
events.

I *really* like the concept of careers, as opposed to free-form
distribution of points for skills and further attribute enhancement.
Developing a character through a career system is the "solitare
Traveller" I played for years when I couldn't find a group, and as
such it helps to have some randomness to make it more gamey. 

OTOH, when we're whipping up a character for a game, I'm just as
happy with a completely subjective system..."just describe your
character, strengths, weaknesses, quirks, who is she, what can she
do, where did she come from and we'll take it from there."  ;->
Given the bare bones, I'm fine with players fleshing a character out
during play.

As I said, I like a mixture of approaches. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 23:51:29 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: ObTrav: Are RPGs still played in the eras of Traveller?

On 02/17/99 at 03:54 PM,  Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk said:

>Bruce wrote:
>>>Hey they do play paper and pencil games! There's an illustration of
>>>people playing one in my MT Refs guide!


>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>>If you are thinking of the Danforth illo, look closely - they are playing
>>Traveller.  ;-)

>Hey, you know he's right.

>I don't know how many times I've looked at that picture and never
>noticed that.  I presume too, that the female to the right is the
>referee/gamemaster/insert other (un)provocative title here/??

Yeah, I saw the writing on the box, low these many years ago, and
had a good laugh.  But, *of course*, what ELSE would they be
playing?  And I agree the female is the ref.  ;->

IM PBEM, Dr Mira bought a copy of the roleplaying game _Across the
Blood Sea_ recently and may launch a game during the next "quiet
jump"...if they ever make another jump, that is.  ;-> If she gets it
going, I might run is as a non-linear thread, or on IRC/ICQ, so it
doesn't bog the *real* game down too much.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:43:59 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

At 08:44 am 2/17/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Valid point!  :)   The other benefit is TEACHING them to shoot.
"Here, let
>me get behind you, now hold it like this".

	"You're doing great, honey. Hey, would you like to learn to shoot
someday?"
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:59:47 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

At 10:43 am 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>In short, coil it just about any freaking way you like, as long as
>>you don't bend it beyond the critical point.
>
>Isn't that what I said?  "Don't bend it too much"?  If your bend
radius is

	Actually, what you did was ask a question ...

>At 08:22 pm 2/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Coil it around what?  

	... to which I was presenting an answer.

>under 8", you're risking it.

	Don't know what kind of fiber you're playing with. Just a few hours
ago I was looking at a fiber line wrapped around the corner of a
doorframe and thinking of this conversation. Bend radius: MAYBE
0.75". Fully functional at 100Mbps ...

	As for the comments about problems with military procurement: none
of the people involved with military procurement are morons. Well,
very few of them. But there's a lot more to most programs than just
slapping stuff together. And sometimes the results get dogged simply
because people using the "old" mindset don't understand how to use
it. True story: the Air Force had a program to create this great
support airplane to help strategic missions (i.e. containing the
USSR). Congress hated it. GAO trashed it. The press claimed it had no
mission. In general nobody thought it was worth a damn.

	It's also the ONLY aircraft so vital to modern warfare that NATO
supposedly operated them jointly. Not borrowed from member air
forces. Bought by NATO as a whole, flown by integrated NATO crews.
It's the AWACS. Anybody want to argue about whether AWACS is useful?

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:16:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I saw that 
> he had rules for damage from solar flares while conducting an 
> EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide protection from solar 
> radiation...I have no hard science background so I'm not sure on weather 
> flares would distrup in-system  communications as well..Just some 
> thought...

Oops! Forgot to answer the part about communications. 

Flares disrupt communications on earth because they affect the
ionosphere and the Van Allen belts. Most long range comm on earth is
either HF bounced off the ionosphere or satellite comms that have to
pass thru it.

The flares change the positions and reflectivity of these layers. So
ground to orbit comms will be disrupted on planets with enough of an
atmosphere. Comms between spaceships will not be affected. 

Any flare that will affect computers inside the ship is going to *kill*
people. Unless the ship has some sort of shielded "storm cellar" for
people to take refuge in. 

I'd assume that most ships are built such that if you place the stern
(with all the engines and reactor) towards the star, you'll be shielded
well enough in the rest of the ship. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:11:11 +0100
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question LONG

Ian wrote:

>  <snipped>  and I imagine
>         that a base pair could be changed without cutting the
>         strand, though I am reaching the limits of my knowledge
>         here.
>

There's a DNA reparation mechanism that involves cutting the nitrogenated base without
even touch the sugar backbone (so DNA chain remains un-breaked) in the first step. But
then, when the new nitrogenated base has to be introduced there, as there's no enzyme
(yet found) that enables the cell to just add the correct nitrogenated base at such
places, the cell makes a break at the sugar chain, removes that ribose (without base)
and add a nucleotide there.

But there are some problems that can be solved without cutting the DNA double strand
(or even just one strand) : now i remember the pirimidine dimers that UV radiation
creates (with one pirimidine in one strand making covalent bonds with the next
pirimidine in the same strand) can be solved (as they are a "relatively" common event)
without breaking the strands, with an enzyme that needs to be activated by the
sunlight (look for photoreactivation in a genetic textbook).


> Guillem Plasencia writes:
> "I would not say "comfortable" but adapted...I guess living
> in an highly irradiated world is no joke, no matter how does
> that species manage to live there. Sure they can manage to
> live there, but if they were given the chance to live in less
> hard conditions, they would "improve" some of their species
> features: better fertility, longer life, larger populations..."
>
>         I would venture to say that organisms tend to feel
>         'comfortable' under conditions that afford them the
>         best chances for survival and reproduction. This
>         pattern of behaviour evolves over many generations,
>         but is not precognitive: it does not 'plan' for
>         new conditions that have not been involved in the
>         evolution of the behaviour. For example, most birds
>         probably feel more comfortable high in a tree than on
>         the ground. Even if one such bird moved to an island
>         with no predators, it would take many generations of
>         natural selection before that bird's decendants felt
>         more comfortable on the ground.
>
> Ian

Maybe i shouldn't have used the word "adapted". I wasn't talking about natural
selection of the individuals that best fit that place. I was telling that it's
perfectly feasible that in some conditions a species has some pressure over it that
prevents it to be (i.e:) more fertile, with a larger life span, a big population...
This doesn't mean that they aren't (natural selectioned=) "adapted" (now the right use
of the word) to live there, but that they haven't, i.e.  maximum resources access
(because of other species with wich they compete), optimal life conditions (in wich i
don't include that high levels of radiation, i don't care how much good DNA repairing
systems or alike they have, high radiation will always cause a higher mutation rate,
infertility, and higher mortality than if the world wasn't so irradiated) etc, so when
they  have a "break" of some of these pressures, they can extend the ecological niche
they are at. No natural selection (i mean, evolution with best fit mutations being
favoured) is involved here.

Just imagine this example: a group of humans (say 100) of an Africa tribe (they live
in the jungle, without contact with other humans) suddenly have a "bad year" let's say
that they (i don't care why) cannot harvest all the food they need : so that year,
there will be some hunger, maybe the youngest will die (not all, as when some of them
have already died there's more food for the other) and then the population reaches a
number of 65 people. Imagine this situation is the same year after year, so the
population of 65 remains the same size (it cannot grow more, there's no food). But
then, someyear, things go better and they can increase their food availability : sure
this population will have some changes : more children will get to adult (they won't
die starved), maybe (this is not always true) women will have more children, they will
live longer lifes (they are now optimally fed) etc... This was the idea i was trying
to explain (in my horrible english)

Again, i'll have to put that LONG word on the subject ;)

- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #160
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 18 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 161



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Solar Flares
RE: Secure a house!
Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)
Re: Recom by Fire
Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Solar Flares
BtC Campaign Question
Re: Leedor museum scout ship
RE: Magazines?
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:20:26 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

>I'd assume that most ships are built such that if you place the stern
>(with all the engines and reactor) towards the star, you'll be shielded
>well enough in the rest of the ship.

As most Traveller ships seem to be built more like space capable tanks than
normal spaceship (even merchants got armour 60 in Striker for example) I
think canon Trav ships are more or less immune to flares.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:36:37 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Secure a house!

Dear Folks -

I sent Matt's "secure a house" joke to Duke Leto, and he responded with:
- ----------
FYE (For Your Edification)

     The process of occupying an area is referred to in military parlance
as _investing_ the area - so the 2LT would have _invested_ the house with
his
platoon.

...mind you, that could be confused with the AF LT who invested _IN_ the
house...

Regards
A P M
- ----------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:24:28 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

At 14:36 17/02/1999 -0500, Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> wrote:
>At 09:58 AM 2/17/99 +0000, I wrote:
>>At 23:04 16/02/1999 -0500, kurt@blazenet.net (Kurt Feltenberger) wrote:

>>>Susquehanna Class Frigate 

>>For a deep penetration raider to be able to use jump-5, it needs at
>>least enough fuel for jump-5 followed by jump-1 *without* refuelling
>>(just in case its destination isn't safe.)

How many jumps of fuel does it have? (IIRC jump fuel calaclation in MT is
not as simple as 10% per jump, or was that TNE?)


>1.  I used the amount of hull space that was inhabited as the basis.  This
>    brings it up to about 2% or so.
>2.  It was all that was left after shoehorning the other goodies in.  ;-)

Okay, 20std for 10 crew seems reasonable.

>Aaargh!  Another thing that did not transfer from the worksheet to the
>description were the missile magazines...
>
>There were supposed to be two seperate magazines, one with 50 battery
>rounds of conventional weapons and one with 25 battery rounds of nuclear
>weapons.

Good, although thinking about it, against small merchants, one or two
missile volleys should be enough, with a bit of lasering if required.

Giving the ship too many missiles might encourage it to take the sort
of risks that get it killed instead of coming home with another half-dozen
kills.

I suppose it depends on how far behind the lines you want it.

>Regarding gunners, the spreadsheet uses the MT crew calculations to
>determine the number of gunners.  It uses control points modified by the
>computer CP multiple.  I've had some rather large ships where the ships
>troops outnumbered the crew by three to one, and it was not a troopship.  

Did I not say that I didn't know MT design rules ;-)

>>Tech 16? In whose Y1119 navy?
>
>The Imperial Navy in the Domain of Deneb.  The Susquehannas were built at
>Vincennes, a TL16 world in Deneb Sector.  My current campaign is MT set in
>the G:T timeline.

TL16 on a 2000std raider designed to go after free traders, subbies and
corsairs seems a bit overkill.
On a deep penetration raider which tends to take casualties due to bad
luck, it seems to be giving away technology to the enemy.
On the Vargr border, you could even argue for using tech 13 or 14.

>>If you are just going after merchants, consider a carrier - even the
>>standard Imperial Heavy Fighter can make a mess of 600std merchants
>>and the risk to your carrier is quite low.
>>
>>Fighters also allow you to be in several places at the same time,
>>so you can hit several merchants in the system and leave before
>>anyone can react. However a bunch of fighters is expensive.
>
>Good points.  Perhaps one or two hulls can be modified to fit this theory.
>
>The two gunned gigs can take the role of fighters if that is necessary.  By
>using fighters, a raider becomes pinned in a system unless she wishes to
>abandon them should the need arise.  Also, adding a wing of fighters adds
>another issue to the mix, maintenance and spares.  For a raider, fighters
>should supplant and enhance the ship's effectiveness, not be the primary
punch.

Its like the battleship/battle rider arguement all over again.
I can see your point and there will be times when flying a carrier
gives you the choice between leaving your fighters and risking the
defense fleet getting too close.

My guess is that both designs would happen and in each case there
will be times when you have the wrong ship in the wrong place.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:38:10 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote

> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> > I prefer pop turrets on streamlined and partially streamlined ships. 
> > Extended, they have 360x180 degree azimuth and elevation, but they 
> > can retract flush with the hull for refueling/re-entry. These 
> > turrets should take up interior volume (which I justify in HG for 
> > the 1 displacement ton for fire control). I guess by this reasoning, 
> > non-pop up turrets shouldn't take up imterior volume, but HG never 
> > differenciated between them. Does anyone know if FFS or FFS2 does?

> FFS2 doesn't, nor does FFS, IIRC. 

FFS1 does not distinguish between them.

DGP's MTJ#4 pg 78-9 offered MT 360 degree turrets and popup turrets as
part of their Custom Ship Add-Ons article

"360 degree Turret
The 360 degree turret is a special rotating ball that allows a nearly
spherical field of fire.  It is secured to a telescopic boom.  A cutout
device is fitted to keep the weapon inside the turret from firing on its
own ship or on the boom.  If these are used move one column up in the
batteries bearing table.  One disadvantage of the design is its
vulnerability to enemy fire.  For this reason some captains choose to
"man" this turret remotely or by robot brain."

"Pop-up Turret
To conceal completely the fact that a ship is armed, the turret can be
concealed behind sliding panels.  When the panels slide back, the turret
extends to its firing position in about 2 seconds.  Only unmanned
turrets can be concealed in this way.  When calculating the volume of
the turret, multiply by 1.5."

Pop Up Turrets are [according to DGP] illegal [I think this idea is
bogus myself]

"To locate a piece of illegal equiptment for sale:
Difficult, Streetwise or Intrusion, Bribery or Forgery, 1 day
Referee: This task increases to Formidable if law level is 8+, decreases
to routine on a planet regularly used by smugglers, pirates, etc." 


"Item		Power		Weight	Volume	Price[Mcr]	Notes

360 Turret	as weapon	x1.5	x1.5	0.01
[this is apparently the price in addition to regular turret & weapon
costs]
Pop Up Turret	-		-	x1.5	0.01 		per	
								turret

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:43:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Linguistic Drift and Scandanavian Languages

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Jonas Karlsson wrote:

>>From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
>
>Well, up in the north of Sweden we *do* have a launch site. (Esrange -
>http://www.ssc.se/esrange/esr_indx.html ) I know Norway has a satellite
>tracking site (http://www.tss.no/info/) but I don't think they actually
>launch anything from there. (Not that it's likely anything major will ever
>be launched from Esrange. But still. ;-)
>

Actually Norway has a launch site, Andoeya, where small high altitude
weather and aurora instruments are launched. There was actually a 
very bad incident last year (or maybe in 1997) where the Russians
had been within inches of launching a counterstrike because nobody
had informed them that Norway was launching. They thought it was 
a missile. 



Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:18:25 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote 

> The Sayat Board for Optimization and Operationalization of Munitions 
> is belatedly pleased to offer:

> MANLY-MAN-POWERED DUELLING FIGHTER
> Power: 308 cubic meters of manly man, producing 1.55 MW; 100 hours
> fuel 
> 25Mj N-PAW (TL-C)  MW input 0.694 
> Designed using FFS (original), plus CSC for "rower" power source. 
> Note that every component is muscle-powered.  

The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be somewhat
greater than those listed in previous Traveller publications.  I think
that they are somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 5,000 watts
per m^3.  At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
350 watts, people do not produce that much power.

Challege 53's Wet Navy design sequences [by Terry McInnes] indicated
that "The basic value for any given species that is capable of rowing is
half the species averageweight in kilograms.  The average human weighs
70 kilograms.  Therefore, the basic human rowing value is 35 - measured
in watts of power produced by an individual human.  This basic wattage
is modified by ability.  A rowers ability is determined by the total die
modifier received for Strength, Endurance, [MT rules stat/5 round down]
and Small Watercraft skill level.  For each point of rowing ability the
rower is able to increase rowing ability by 40% of the basic wattage
value."

Suppose that our rowing crew was [as you have indicated] very manly.  We
could call them Str 10+ End 10+ with Small Watercraft-2.  They would
therefore have a DM of +6 and produce 119 watts of power each. 
Therefore your 0.694 MW (694,000 watts) of weapon power input would
require 5,832 manly men. [The whole design would require 13,025 manly
men.  5,832 manly men will have take up more than 308 cubic meters. [I
suspect that the 308 m^3 volume is for the volume of their bodies alone
& does not include room to actually row in if so 308 m^3 of the manly
men will weigh 308 tons (using the humans are as dense as water
simplifying assumption).  At 70 kg each this would be 4,400 manly men. 
If we assume that our manly men are _very_ manly with Str 15 End 15 and
Small Watercraft 5 they will each generate 189 watts & you will need
only 3,672 of them to generate the power for the PAW.  Total craft power
requirements for the ship will be 8,201 very manly men.  They will _not_
fit in the ship.

I think it might be a bit difficult to find 8,201 men with Str 15, End
15 and Small Watercraft 5 however I suppose that I could make the
sacrifice of helping you look for them Kenji....

If however you were to reduce the rate of fire on the weapon, lower its
maximum power, reduce hull armor etc [everything Sayboom hates] you
might have a viable design.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:00 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)

A couple more thoughts:

Above 5,000sdt, the decks on a perpendicular thrust ship are large enough
to be efficient, even in a needle design.

Below 5,000sdt, the classic design is a flying saucer with its engine
in the belly. It flies "sideways" in atmospheres as though parallel
decked but has perpendicular thrust for spaceflight.

(Its a classic design because I believe that the Vilani were using
 them for thousands of years before the Solomani wingless 747s arrived.)

The bottom line is parallel to direction of flight in atmosphere,
perpendicular to direction of thrust in space.

When you have to do both its a compromise in the design.

Phil kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:20:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Recom by Fire

At 09:14 PM 2/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I heard of another version of Recon by fire, where a sniper would space
>single rounds 6" apart along the woodline.  If you hear someone scream, you
>know there is someone there.  I must have gotten the concept wrong, 'cause
>right now, reciting it, it sounds like suicide.

It is.

Snipers operate by taking precise, aimed shots at targets.

You want recon by fire, you rocak'n'roll into the bushes.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:19:00 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

I Wrote:
> The wings are actually intended to be a means
> of locomotion in the water, being flexable /
> mechanical in nature.   I added a comment to
> the drawing that should clear up your concerns....


Joe Pettit Wrote:
> That could be extraordinarily difficult  to do from a
> mechanical standpoint.

Given todays technologies perhaps... but how long
ago would the wing of a passenger jet have been
considered 'extraordinarilty difficult' to construct?
ContraGravity, robotics, advanced plastics, a few
more hundred years of submarine experience,
and perhaps even technology exchanged with alien
aquatic races, could produce ships that 'swim'
through the oceans.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:33:11 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Bad Equipment
>
>You want a good infantry fighting vehicle (Bradley) vice a `battlefield
>taxi' (M-113), you need to make changes. We did exactly the same thing
>when we shifted from the FV-432 to the Warrior. It's like complaining
>that a new warship has a different compliment to the one it's replacing.
>It shouldn't be that hard to change the manning. It would be hard,
>however, to make an IFV with all the capabilities of an M2 but seating
>twice as many people.

I will not involve myself in a flamewar over the Bradley. I will not
involve myself myself in a flamewar about the Bradley. I will not involve
myself in a flamewar about the Bradley.

>
>Compare the M2 to other vehicles in the same timescale - BMP-1 and -2s;
>Marders; BTRs. It's good kit.

If you happen to be a high-ranking KGB mole intent on killing as many
Americans as possible at the highest possible price to be paid for by the
US Treasury, yes.

It's too tall, too expensive, and you need too bloody many of them to move
a company of infantry.

>
>I don't think that the US Army plans to swim it's fighting vehicles.

Oh, really ? And how *did* they plan to get them over all those nice rivers
in Germany ?

>Well, excepting that it was vulnerable to heavy machinegun fire; had
>zero anti-tank capability; and was about half the speed of the tanks it
>was supposed to support, yes.
>

Y'know, the Russians found out a neat fact about IFVs in Afghanistan. NCOs
tend to stay in 'their tank' and their troops tend to cluster near it,
becasue it is big, armoured and has the squad's support weapons.

So when they get hit by anti-tank weapons (which are not in short supply in
modern armies), they blow up real good and kill most all the squad.

An unarmed battlefield taxi has a major advantage. Nobody is going to make
the fatal mistake of trying to fight out of one.

If you want a tank, buy a tank. If you want a ATGW platform, get a M113 and
put TOW on it. If you want something to carry infantry and protect them
from artillery splinters on the way there, buy an APC.

Dont try to do it all in one platform.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:11:09 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

Thanks...great points....

Mike McKeown




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:30:54 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: BtC Campaign Question

Hi, 

I just got BtC and was thinking of running a GT campaign set around 
0140/876-574. BtC states that the stone age tribe memebers on the  main 
world are dying out...and it was something to do with the return of the 
"old one" Beyond the obvious CoC implications....any ideas for what the 
"old one" should be...a disease? an amphibian race? I was thinking of a 
big shark(?) Or maybe Dick Clark(?) Whoops...wrong genre!
TIA
Mike McKeown

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:52:47 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Leedor museum scout ship

>> I've heard dark, giggling rumors about how a certain enactment of the
>> _Traveller Adventure_ saw the PCs steal the Scout/Courier in the museum
>> and use it for their getaway.  I wasn't there at the time, but perhaps
>> someone who was could explicate further?
>
>I wasn't in that one, but I've had players hide in the landing-gear
>wells until night and then jump out to steal the brooch.  I was being a
>spoil-sport that game, and ruled that the engines had been removed to
>cut down on the weight, so that it could be hung from the ceiling.

In my own incarnation, the jump drive & power plant were gone or
inoperative (safety, you know), but there was an internal battery (which
was bled to from the power supplied to the ship for lights, tour panels,
etc) and the thruster plates hadn't been removed.  Certainly it couldn't
take off like that, but it could sort of slide across the floor...

There was enough energy in those old batteries to get the thing across the
museum, through the wall, and most of the way across the city (crashing
through living rooms as it went) before the authorities caught up with it.

By the way, did you notice that on the Leedor map the Marquis' palace is
almost directly "east" of the museum, and on the museum map, that happens
to be the direction the scout ship is oriented (giggle).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:10:50 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Magazines?

>Dear Folks -
>
>1.   Magazine Query
>
>Kurt asked:
>>What would be a good size for the magazines on a 2000ton ship
>>with one 50 ton missile bay?
>
>Assumption: you are using MegaTraveller. ;-)
>
[snip Math]
>...or about 13 disp tons in total.
>
>Kurt, why not multiply your ammo by 3 or 4?
[snip more math]
>In total, 250 + 375 = 625 kl (about 46 disp tons).

Lets not cloud the priorities here.  The question is, how many missiles
*should* the ship carry?

The mission is deep commerce raiding.  That means the ship will be fighting
200 to 10,000 ton merchants (possibly larger), and likely running from
almost any military vessel (except those it can fight without a real risk
of damage).  This strategy will keep it operating for many weeks away from
resupply.

Ok, lets assume it's primary tactics will be to lie in wait near a jump
point or previously identified pass by point for unescorted merchants, then
pop out of stealth and say "your money or your life", whereapon the Zho
merchie surrenders, gets in its lifeboats, and the ship is vapourized by
laser fire (assuming there is enough time before the Cavalry arrives), or
the merchie decides to fight, it takes an average of, say, 10 rounds to
destroy, using 10 battery-rounds of missiles.

At that point the tactic dictates jumping to another system before the zho
SDBs, cruisers and escorts catch up.

So one battle every week, possibly two if there is a nearby warship that
can intercept before jumping, some damage will be taken.

I'd guess that the deployment time is not more than 10 weeks.  War can
alter cicumstances so much in that time that a redeployment somewhere else
might be needed.  So in ten weeks they'll get into no more than 10 battles
(one with the merchant, one with escort, then a week in jump, then a week
setting up and fighting the next battle) involving 100 battery rounds.

Now, multiply the estimate by two.

I'd bring along about 200 battery rounds, evenly divided between nukes (to
be used on the military ships) and conventional (for merchies).  I think
that makes about 19.5 dtons, not a big penalty volume-wise.

>In comparison, one 50-ton bay (empty) is 675 kl.
>
>2.   Bays as Magazines
>
>What are people's views on the suggested use of bays as magazines? I mean,
>I assume that you add the weight of the missiles when calculating "Loaded
>Weight". For example, the rules state that a 100-ton bay can hold 13500
>missiles. This is 675 tons of conventional missiles or 945 tons of nukes -
>not an inconsiderable tonnage.

Why take up the hardpoints without a weapon?  I saw this 'option' as either
silly or specifically for "upgradable" ships which were built (to a budget)
with an empty bay for future refitting.  Also could be used for older ships
which have been refitted with one less bay weapon, but the empty "bay
socket" is still there.

My problem when using MT is usually that I don't have enough hardpoints for
the weapons I want to install.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:21:28 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

At 03:29 PM 2/17/99 PST, you wrote:
>>Posted by: Julie Garth at the WebRPG
>> Date: 01/27/1999 10:47 
>>On the January 21st episode of the sitcom known as "Jesse", NBC began 
>>what I have heard described as a general attack on the gaming 
>>community. In the episode, the title character went on a date with >her 
>math teacher. The math teacher said that they were going to a >"club" he 
>knew. The "club" turned out to be a Dungeons & Dragons >gaming session. 
>The episode became more offensive after that. When >the Dungeon Master 
>appeared, the players actually got on their knees >and apparently 
>worshipped him. (This is actually something that >anti-gaming groups 
>have accused us of.) Furthermore, the players >acted like they were 
>completely and utterly out of touch with reality >- Jesse had to ask for 
>a "magic voice transporter" to find out
>>where the phone was, for instance. We were called "geeks" multiple 
>>times, and when Jesse called one friend and told her she was playing 
>>Dungeons & Dragons the friend yelled "GET OUT OF THERE NOW!!" The 
>>friend then went on to tell her that the only way to get out of the 
>>game was to have her character die. 
>>The gaming community in general (or at least those I have talked to) 
>>finds this offensive and inappropriate... [edited for brevity]
>>Julie Garth
>

What was 'General' about the attack?  Were there other episodes?  Did other
shows advance this stereo type?

I've been gaming various RPGs for 19 years and I have NEVER come across
something like this with any game group.  The only 'ritual' I have ever seen
is the stereo typical and often heated discussion of what topping to order
on the mid game pitza.

Charles L. (Italian sausage a must.  NO ANCHOVIES (My girlfriend HATES fish
and I hate sleeping on the couch) anything else is fine by me.  GRIN! )

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:11:47 -0000
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
> > While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I
> > saw that he had rules for damage from solar flares while
> > conducting an EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide
> > protection from solar radiation...I have no hard science
> > background so I'm not sure on weather flares would distrup
> > in-system  communications as well..Just some thought...
>
> The radiation from a flare requires several *meters* of water
> (or the equivalent) as shielding. Metallic shielding is useless
> as the high energy protons will generate *secondary* particle
> showers that will result in *worse* damage on the other side. 
>
> Even at TL-15 I can't see a spacesuit being able to protect
> against a major flare. 


As I understand it the Earth's radiation shield is  its  magnetic
field ... could a TL15 PLSS unit have a high-energy magnetic coil
(good for an hour, say) to generate  a  strong  enough  field  to
protect the suit occupant during EVAs?  And would a field of this
'density' by unhealthy?  (Or is my science wrong?)

(Visions of a suited figure with aurora borealis round  his  head
and feet.)



Regards PLST

"The universe ... the ultimate violation of the law of
Conservation of Matter/Energy!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:46:08 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

KenRoney wrote
>>>>>>>>>
 Remember, when a community is isolated, it is much more likely to go off
on its own linguistically...co-ordinating the small population base would
demand the use of a "lingua franca"

Since this colony is a feudal technocracy, I would suspect each tech group
would be somewhat isolated, at least socially.  This would be especially
true the higher up the hierarchy you go.  Of course if everyone had the 'we
can do this together' attitude, then you only get localized jargon.
However, if there was some bad feelings and the leadership was isolated and
started off speaking a minority lang., it could be isolated enough that it
would stay a significant dialect or even seperate lang.



>>>>>>>>>>>>
With universal electronic communication and gravitic mobility present,
communities would not be able to develop or maintain their own dialects in
isolation


Someone else mentioned that, and I've heard it before, but I'm not sure I
believe it.  So far our only model for this has been 20th century European
langs., which have admittedly stayed pretty constant.  But this could also
be a function of our liberal civilization, economics, and media bias.  If
tech has such a homogenizing influence, why do we still have the "Eubonics"
question?   I'm just using that as an example, but there is still a
significantly variant English dialect spoken in all major American cities,
suposedly the most media saturated in the world, and therefore subject to
the homogenization.
If the colony wasn't as liberal or democratic, social classes might be much
more isolated than we would imagine.  It would not have to be the upper
classes after all that keep their language.  If the Danes found themselves
as the housecleaners and yard sweepers, they might end up keeping their
language since no one bothered to teach them any German beyond "clean this."

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:38:10 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

Michael Peters writes:
> 
> As far as compression. I've sent a number of Dplans around the web,
> in many formats. GIF/JPG even zipped is usually larger than the pdf
> formated file. I also work big, 1/2 inch squares mostly, and the
> latest I'm working on is 1 inch, fully play able for 25mm. These
> files as GIF/JPG are large, as vectors larger, while the pdf's are
> smaller by a large factor.

Interesting, I must have run into a load of badly assembled PDFs.
(Several meg files that could have been done as a 40 or 50K text/html
file.)

> Also I have never, intentionally, "locked" any of the data in the pdf's.

It's more of a matter of have and have not in PDF authoring software.
 
> Another plus to pdf is that text (discriptions, adventures, etc.) can be
> included. The conversion process to Gif/JPG may be tedious but there are
> a number of plus' to the format that makes that worthwhile (IMHO).

True, especially if large amounts of text are incorporated.  But, most
of
the deck plans that I have seen just use a small legend.

Bottom line, I can live with either method.  [Although, I'm still firmly
entrenched on the GIF/html side.]  :-)
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #161
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 18 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 162



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Deck plan format 
Traveller Collection For Sale or Trade
Re:  Solar Flares
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Those who support delusions 
Secure a house! (Off topic)
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)
Re: Alien biology question
re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)
Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)
RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: T5 Questions
RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
Re: FS: Traveller items - all incarnations
Re: Return of SayBOOM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:45:32 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> writes:
>The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be somewhat
>greater than those listed in previous Traveller publications.  I think
>that they are somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 5,000 watts
>per m^3.  At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
>350 watts, people do not produce that much power.
[snip]
>
>If however you were to reduce the rate of fire on the weapon, lower its
>maximum power, reduce hull armor etc [everything Sayboom hates] you
>might have a viable design.

Alternately, you could equip the rowing stations with dispensers for
performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, and get to work gene-splicing a
crew...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:48:43 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

At 07:16 PM 17/02/99 PST, you wrote:
>Oops! Forgot to answer the part about communications. 

        Hi, Leonard!  We'll forgive you =)

        [snip]

>Any flare that will affect computers inside the ship is going to *kill*
>people. Unless the ship has some sort of shielded "storm cellar" for
>people to take refuge in. 
        
        Well, if that was the case, you'd expect that the HG radiation
damage table would say "Computer -n/ Crew -n" on the same roll, but they
don't.  In the RealWorld(tm) you are probably right, but I made my decision
based on the game mechanics.
        Maybe an END save or some such for each crew member or they take
radiation damage if the computer gets smoked by a flare?

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:49:27 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Deck plan format 

"Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@bdol10.indepth.com> writes:
>Interesting, I must have run into a load of badly assembled PDFs.
>(Several meg files that could have been done as a 40 or 50K text/html
>file.)

Me too.

A lot of people have been using the PDF software to scan written
documents, then just saving the scans (without running OCR), so you get
pages of high-resolution pictures when a few k of text would do the trick.
 Mind you, I've seen the same done with GIF and JPEG, too.

Done right, PDF uses decent data compression.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:07:54 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Collection For Sale or Trade

Hi again.

	I have posted a Excel 97 Spreadsheet for those of you who may be
interested.  The spreadsheet details my current collection of items
(with a minor few missing) which I need to sell.  The sheet shows the
condition, the author/publisher, condition, and original retail price I
can remember the items being sold for in the store (locally).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
	NOTE: The retail price does not indicate the sale price!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	The items are also listed with what is for sale, and what is not. 
Everything can be thought of as for sale for the right price though... 
There are in some cases multiples of the same item as well that may not
be listed.

	The spreadsheet is located at:
http://ww3.ncweb.com/scspieker/TravList.zip (10.394 K).

	If you are interested in purchasing items please respond privately to:
scspieker@hotmail.com

	I will sell items at the best offer price.  I also reserve the right to
deny sales of items.
	Buyer pays shipping (USPS Priority mail in most cases (US & Canada)).

Thank you for your time,
Scott Spieker
scspieker@ncweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:08:21 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Solar Flares

> From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>

> "The universe ... the ultimate violation of the law of
> Conservation of Matter/Energy!

How do you know it does no all add up to zero? ;-)

Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:30:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Rob Prior wrote:

> Alternately, you could equip the rowing stations with dispensers for
> performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, and get to work gene-splicing a
> crew...

I believe the former would be the Famille Spofulam philosophy, while the
latter would be that of SayBOOM.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:35:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Peter Newman wrote:

> The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be somewhat
> greater than those listed in previous Traveller publications.  I think
> that they are somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 5,000 watts
> per m^3.  At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
> 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.

I thought this was wrong, yeah.  That's why I bothered to design it :)

<snip>

> If we assume that our manly men are _very_ manly with Str 15 End 15 and
> Small Watercraft 5 they will each generate 189 watts & you will need
> only 3,672 of them to generate the power for the PAW.  Total craft power
> requirements for the ship will be 8,201 very manly men.  They will _not_
> fit in the ship.

Not in _this_ ship.  It shall be redesigned shortly.

> I think it might be a bit difficult to find 8,201 men with Str 15, End
> 15 and Small Watercraft 5 however I suppose that I could make the
> sacrifice of helping you look for them Kenji....

As long as we're being practical & rational, could someone calculate the
number of such people (or at least, say, Str-F/End-F) on Sylea in M:0?

> If however you were to reduce the rate of fire on the weapon, lower its
> maximum power, reduce hull armor etc [everything Sayboom hates] you
> might have a viable design.

It's as minimized power-wise as it can be -- since it has no maneuver
drives, the hull armor isn't a power drain; the discharge energy was per
the customer's request, and the ROF is as low as is allowed in the FF&S
book.  It's legal, just stupid.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:37:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> 2.  Exactly how many manly men are required for this design?  And how
> many girly men would be needed for the same power output?  (Girly men
> and/or scrawny neighbor boys* being cheaper per each than manly men.)

Peter N.'s post should answer this question pretty well.  As to your
cost-saving suggestion, I suspect Davar would see it as totally missing
the point.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:41:03 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

> I've been gaming various RPGs for 19 years and I have NEVER come across
> something like this with any game group.  The only 'ritual' I have ever seen
> is the stereo typical and often heated discussion of what topping to order
> on the mid game pitza.

Sounds about right, and *certainly* consistent with my fading memories of FTF 
gaming...  <grin>

> Charles L. (Italian sausage a must.  NO ANCHOVIES (My girlfriend HATES fish
> and I hate sleeping on the couch) anything else is fine by me.  GRIN! )

BARBARIAN!!!!!!

*EVERYBODY* knows it's supposed to be 'pepperoni & mushrooms'.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:36:35 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Secure a house! (Off topic)

david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I sent Matt's "secure a house" joke to Duke Leto, and he responded with:
>- ----------
>FYE (For Your Edification)
>
>     The process of occupying an area is referred to in military parlance
>as _investing_ the area - so the 2LT would have _invested_ the house with
>his
>platoon.
>
>...mind you, that could be confused with the AF LT who invested _IN_ the
>house...

Hmm. In (mumble) years working with the forces, I have never heard this
expression.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:47:43 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>I will not involve myself in a flamewar over the Bradley. I will not
>involve myself myself in a flamewar about the Bradley. I will not involve
>myself in a flamewar about the Bradley.

No flames, just discussion.

>>Compare the M2 to other vehicles in the same timescale - BMP-1 and -2s;
>>Marders; BTRs. It's good kit.
>
>If you happen to be a high-ranking KGB mole intent on killing as many
>Americans as possible at the highest possible price to be paid for by the
>US Treasury, yes.

Go on then - point out the advantages of the BMP-1 or -2 over the M2,
and then look at the list of disadvantages.

>It's too tall, too expensive, and you need too bloody many of them to move
>a company of infantry.

Yep, height is about the only thing a BMP has over a Bradley. Obtained
at the cost of a chronic MANPRINT failure in the rear of the vehicle
(have you ever *seen* a BMP up close) and a worthless turret. Oh, did I
point out the piss-poor fuel tank location too?

>>I don't think that the US Army plans to swim it's fighting vehicles.
>
>Oh, really ? And how *did* they plan to get them over all those nice rivers
>in Germany ?

Bridges, either existing or manufactured. The only time it's worth
swimming a vehicle is when it's assaulting from the sea. And even then,
it's not that bright. Ask a US Marine how much they like riding in the
LVTP-7.

>>Well, excepting that it was vulnerable to heavy machinegun fire; had
>>zero anti-tank capability; and was about half the speed of the tanks it
>>was supposed to support, yes.
>>
>
>Y'know, the Russians found out a neat fact about IFVs in Afghanistan. NCOs
>tend to stay in 'their tank' and their troops tend to cluster near it,
>becasue it is big, armoured and has the squad's support weapons.

Bad use of their kit by the Russians does not make US kit poor.

>So when they get hit by anti-tank weapons (which are not in short supply in
>modern armies), they blow up real good and kill most all the squad.

When used properly, this isn't such a problem. Also, look to the up-
armouring of IFVs (like the Warrior).

>An unarmed battlefield taxi has a major advantage. Nobody is going to make
>the fatal mistake of trying to fight out of one.

Of course, a M-113 would be lagging way behind the tanks (if the tanks
are using their superior speed), or dragging the speed of operations
(and thus the operational and tactical mobility) down with it.

(ObTrav: Damn. This is an argument for Battlepod infantry rather than
Battle Dress. I hate battlepods).

And what if you're caught in a M-113? At least you have some chance in a
M2. In an M-113, the enemy rounds are coming through the sides and you
have *one* M-2 MG to return fire with - if anyone can poke their head
out the hatch. 

>If you want a tank, buy a tank. If you want a ATGW platform, get a M113 and
>put TOW on it. If you want something to carry infantry and protect them
>from artillery splinters on the way there, buy an APC.
>
>Dont try to do it all in one platform.

if you need them all, and you can't afford one of each - get the best
compromise.


Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:28:05 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Black ICE wrote:

>> The M2 Bradley is designed to carry six infantry.  The Divison 86 standard
>> infantry squad has eleven people.  Slight problem.
>> 
>I am reminded of the passage from the book _The Defense of Hill 781_
>(set in Purgatory a.k.a. the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin), in
>which the protagonist, Lieutenant Colonel A. Tack Always, who had spent
>all of his career in airborne/light infantry units, had to command a
>battalion task force in Purgatory, and couldn't leave until he beat the
>OPFOR.  LTC Always realized at one point that he had commanded airborne
>infantry companies that could put more dismounted infantrymen on the
>battlefield than his entire mech infantry _battalion task force_.

Of course, a mech infantry task force can sit back a bit and inflict
some suppressing fire on that leg infantry company. Even better, if it's
a really a task force (i.e. one company of infantry have been traded for
a company of tanks) the defenders are in a world of hurt. Tanks, IFVs
and supporting troops against leg infantry?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:09:22 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)

> From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>
> More to the point, I would imagine that the Zodian Clans (the
> Aslan-assimilated Humans) might have two kinds of gender -
> biological (i.e., which set of reproductive organs do you have?)
> and social (i.e., what kind of job do you do?).  In all matters
> not dealing _directly_ with reproduction, social gender would
> normally be used - and I don't find it unlikely that they might
> end up with a _social_ gender ratio of 3:1.

The odd thing would be that, to the Aslan, humans would seem trans-gendered
or hermaphrodites or something - in times of stress individual humans would
appear to change their gender. For example, during war, there might suddenly
be a huge wave of "females" becoming "males" and then changing back after
the war is over.

I mean, if fish can do it, why can't humans. ;)
- --
Ethan Henry                              Java Evangelist
egh@klg.com                                     KL Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:18:00 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien biology question

Guillem Plasencia writes:
<much snipped> "But then, someyear, things go better and they 
can increase their food availability : sure this population 
will have some changes : more children will get to adult (they 
won't die starved), maybe (this is not always true) women will 
have more children, they will live longer lifes (they are now 
optimally fed) etc... This was the idea i was trying to 
explain (in my horrible english)"

	It is certainly true that populations of organisms may
	increase in size when conditions become more favourable.
	Of course, sometimes 'more favourable' is not what it 
	seems. For example, insects that rely on cold weather in
	the winter to reduce their metabolic rate (and therefore 
	their food requirement) might starve to death if the
	winter was not as cold as usual. In any event, your 
	command of english far exceeds my command of any other 
	language: please continue to post.

:)
Ian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:26:33 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Aslan (and Aslan-Assimilated Humans)

Ethan Henry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The odd thing would be that, to the Aslan, humans would seem trans-gendered
or hermaphrodites or something - in times of stress individual humans would
appear to change their gender. For example, during war, there might suddenly
be a huge wave of "females" becoming "males" and then changing back after
the war is over.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
True to a point...but it will depend on what part of a war we're talking about.
The vast majority of a warship's crew are "females" - the engineers,
navigators, technicians, service crew, even most of the command crew.
It's only the pilots, gunners and marines (and the CO) who are "male".

How many "females" does it take to put one "male" infantryman into
a front line combat role and maintain him there?

Still, the changeability might be disconcerting to an Aslan.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:28:19 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)

>Therefore your 0.694 MW (694,000 watts) of weapon power input would
>require 5,832 manly men. [The whole design would require 13,025 manly
>men.


Now, if you were simply converting these manly men to energy via some form
of advanced technology (i.e., combining them with anti-manly-men in a
Manly-Anti-Manly (MAM) reactor) I think you could argue for a much *higher*
power output. I suspect that the energy gotten from spontaneously
converting a 120 kg sweaty bodybuilder to a 40 kg weakling would be fairly
enormous.

What TL is SayBOOM anyway?

What I would like to know is how many manly-men it would take to row a TL7
wet navy supertanker. You know, like in the motion picture _Waterworld_. ;-)



Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:34:27 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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lurk Mode Off>>
Apologies for this minor intrusion into your normal broadcasts. Could =
someone
point me to a site that has an Excel spreadsheet for High Guard ship =
designs.
Many thanks in advance and I now return you back to your normal =
broadcasts.
Hmm... does High Guard allow manly-man power plants?
Lurk Mode On>>

Thanks
Dave

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>lurk Mode Off&gt;&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Apologies for this minor intrusion =
into your=20
normal broadcasts. Could someone</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>point me to a site that has an Excel =
spreadsheet=20
for High Guard ship </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>designs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Many thanks in advance and I now =
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hmm... does High Guard allow =
manly-man power=20
plants?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Lurk Mode On&gt;&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dave</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE5B19.7EEDB450--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:01:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

Peter L.S. Trevor writes:
> As I understand it the Earth's radiation shield is  its  magnetic
> field ... could a TL15 PLSS unit have a high-energy magnetic coil
> (good for an hour, say) to generate  a  strong  enough  field  to
> protect the suit occupant during EVAs?  And would a field of this
> 'density' by unhealthy?  (Or is my science wrong?)

Assuming high-density room-temperature superconductors, yes.  However, a
compact field small enough for a suit would probably have sufficiently high
field densities that you wouldn't want such as suit _anywhere_ near anything
susceptible to magnetic fields.
> 
> (Visions of a suited figure with aurora borealis round  his  head
> and feet.)

Well, you won't get an aurora without an atmosphere.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:33:14 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

Tommy Grav wrote:

> Actually there are dialects in Norway that are very hard to understand.
> Some are impossible if the speaker uses nothing but local words and tone.

This is true in rural Minnesota and Wisconsin, too.
Incomprehenible Norwegian and Swedish dialects.
I'm not kidding.

Uff da, ya shure, you betcha!

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:36:41 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> >Peter is confused when others refer to self in third person.  Peter
> >thinks Doug is good writer, if Doug wants Core during Arbelleatra's
> >Regency will Doug write it?
>
> sure.
>
> After I finish any ACQ revisons, 101st Spaceborne, my Lunion webpages, the
> Illuminated Traveller pages...
>
> ..and that doesn't even count my proposal for G:T Imperial Army.

An unsolicited recommendation of Doug's Traveller priorities:

G:T Imperial Army (Proposal Only)
ACQ
101st Spaceborne
G:T Imperial Army
Illuminated Traveller
Lunion

;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:20:02 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls

At 08:34 AM 18/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>lurk Mode Off>>
>Apologies for this minor intrusion into your normal broadcasts. Could someone
>point me to a site that has an Excel spreadsheet for High Guard ship designs.
>Many thanks in advance and I now return you back to your normal broadcasts.
>Hmm... does High Guard allow manly-man power plants?
>Lurk Mode On>>
>
>Thanks
>Dave

        The urge to fire prximity-fused photon torpedoes as you go back into
lurk is enormous....  ;-)

        There is such an animal on my website at
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller".  Hit the "Software" button and
follow your nose.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:26:35 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: FS: Traveller items - all incarnations

In a message dated 2/17/99 9:37:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, ybrekp@mtco.com
writes:

 Seeker Gaming Systems
 ========================
 Starship deckplans - 25MM Scale
 
     Imperial Small Craft  (EX)  $12
 
     Gazelle Class Close Escort  (NM)  $12

Dear Sir:

I'm interested in these two items,

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:57:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Peter Newman wrote:
> 

> The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be somewhat
> greater than those listed in previous Traveller publications.  I think
> that they are somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 5,000 watts
> per m^3.  At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
> 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.

Well, you strap your manly men into LifeCycle based generators, you
might be able to do it...after all we can fly, ride at ~60 mph, and run
a hydroplane on one Manly-man power...(actually, one skinny euro-bike
man power) It all depends on the powertrain details...rowing is actually
very inefficient at doing anything but moving a boat through the water
slowly.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #162
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 18 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 163



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)
RE: HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
Re: BtC Campaign Question
RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
Re: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
The Big Ka-BOOM (Was Re: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls)
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Secure a house! (Off topic)
Re: Milieu
Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))
Re: Gauss weapons
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Solar Flares
Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate
Re: Leviathan (was: Starhips)
Re: deckplans
Re: Return of SayBOOM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:02:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, steve daniels wrote:

>Tommy Grav wrote:
>
>> Actually there are dialects in Norway that are very hard to understand.
>> Some are impossible if the speaker uses nothing but local words and tone.
>
>This is true in rural Minnesota and Wisconsin, too.
>Incomprehenible Norwegian and Swedish dialects.
>I'm not kidding.
>
>Uff da, ya shure, you betcha!

Actually there was a program a couple of weeks ago that showed some
footage taken for a program in the sixties/seventies. It showed an
auction on a farm in minnesota, and it was performed in Norwegian 
(Or at least in something that sounded like norwegian). The man
holding the auction was the son of a norwegian emigrant, and had
never been to Norway, but still it was a much used language in the area.
I guess it still is. 


>Bloo

Ha det bra

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:33:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

> Now, if you were simply converting these manly men to energy via some form
> of advanced technology (i.e., combining them with anti-manly-men in a
> Manly-Anti-Manly (MAM) reactor) I think you could argue for a much *higher*
> power output. 

Though you're on to something here that could well put the BMF drive to
shame, it's certainly going to be a violation of the Traveller Decency
Act, and thus unpublishable (much less canonizationable).  Besides, large
chunks of the list would virulently find it tasteless.

>I suspect that the energy gotten from spontaneously
> converting a 120 kg sweaty bodybuilder to a 40 kg weakling would be fairly
> enormous.

Yeah, you could do it that way, too.

> What TL is SayBOOM anyway?

In the CT-MT era, I'd say TL-D, with a range of up to 2 TL either way.
They ain't regular folks.  The MMP Duellists' Fighter is intended to be
kosher for M:0, though -- hence straight TL-C.

> What I would like to know is how many manly-men it would take to row a TL7
> wet navy supertanker. You know, like in the motion picture _Waterworld_. ;-)

Unfortunately, I don't know of/have any design system for doing wet-navy
items in Traveller.  Otherwise...

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:04:50 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: HighGuard Ship Designs .xls

http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller/

Click on "Software for Traveller" and scroll to the bottom.


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

Nothing is miserable unless you think it so. (Boethius, 524 c.e. )


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Dave Strebe [SMTP:strebe@intergate.bc.ca]
> Sent:	18 February 1999 10:34
> To:	TML
> Subject:	RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls
> 
> lurk Mode Off>>
> Apologies for this minor intrusion into your normal broadcasts. Could
> someone
> point me to a site that has an Excel spreadsheet for High Guard ship
> designs.
> Many thanks in advance and I now return you back to your normal
> broadcasts.
> Hmm... does High Guard allow manly-man power plants?
> Lurk Mode On>>
> 
> Thanks
> Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:19:33 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: BtC Campaign Question

> From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 6:30 AM

> I just got BtC and was thinking of running a GT campaign set around 
> 0140/876-574. BtC states that the stone age tribe memebers on the  main 
> world are dying out...and it was something to do with the return of the 
> "old one" Beyond the obvious CoC implications....any ideas for what the 
> "old one" should be...a disease? an amphibian race? I was thinking of a 
> big shark(?) Or maybe Dick Clark(?) Whoops...wrong genre!

	I vote for Dick Clark.  He does make apperances(sp?) into my game
everyso often.

> TIA
> Mike McKeown

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:25:08 -0500
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls

Dave Strebe writes:
"Could someone point me to a site that has an Excel 
spreadsheet for High Guard ship designs."

	I have recently built one myself (Excel 5.0 workbook),
	but I cannot guarantee that it lacks errors. If 
	anyone wants a look at it just e-mail me (I would 
	appreciate any feedback).

Ian
ian@vax2.concordia.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:35:39 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 9:20 AM
Subject: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls


>At 08:34 AM 18/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>lurk Mode Off>>
>>Apologies for this minor intrusion into your normal broadcasts. Could
someone
>>point me to a site that has an Excel spreadsheet for High Guard ship
designs.
>>Many thanks in advance and I now return you back to your normal
broadcasts.
>>Hmm... does High Guard allow manly-man power plants?
>>Lurk Mode On>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>Dave
>
>        The urge to fire prximity-fused photon torpedoes as you go back
into
>lurk is enormous....  ;-)
>
>        There is such an animal on my website at
>"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller".  Hit the "Software" button
and
>follow your nose.
>
Thanks, got it. Hmm...a general question. What happens when you do an
emergency jump
as the Black Globe is powering up?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:47:23 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: The Big Ka-BOOM (Was Re: RE:HighGuard Ship Designs .xls)

At 11:35 AM 18/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>Thanks, got it. Hmm...a general question. What happens when you do an
>emergency jump
>as the Black Globe is powering up?
>
>Dave
>

        Hi, Dave.  IMO, you'd explode.  All or most of the energy you are
dumping out of your J-Drives to enter J-Space is going to get inhaled by the
Glode and right back into your capacitors.  You'll either cause a massive
misjump from not having enough energy actually present to properly open the
way to J-Space, or you'll saturate your capacitors.  Either way, you are
dead.  That'd be my guess, anyway.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:36 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

>> Alternately, you could equip the rowing stations with dispensers for
>> performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, and get to work gene-splicing a
>> crew...
>
>I believe the former would be the Famille Spofulam philosophy, while the
>latter would be that of SayBOOM.

  In other words, FS are chronically short-sighted?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:38:32 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Secure a house! (Off topic)

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 
> david.d.jaques-watson wrote:
> 
> >I sent Matt's "secure a house" joke to Duke Leto, and he responded with:
> >- ----------
> >FYE (For Your Edification)
> >
> >     The process of occupying an area is referred to in military parlance
> >as _investing_ the area - so the 2LT would have _invested_ the house with
> >his
> >platoon.
> >
> >...mind you, that could be confused with the AF LT who invested _IN_ the
> >house...
> 
> Hmm. In (mumble) years working with the forces, I have never heard this
> expression.
> 
IIRC, one "invests" a fixed fortification, which is occupied by the
enemy.  Essentially, it's synonymous with "laying siege to" said
fortification

> Aetherem Vincere
> Matt
> --
> Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
> My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
> for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:39:21 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Milieu

But surely that's exactly what we have in Milieu Zero?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Damien Fox <phocks@goodnet.com>
To: Traveller <traveller-digest@MPGN.COM>
Date: 16 February 1999 21:55
Subject: Milieu


>How about right at the beginning of the Long Night?  We get that wonderful
>film noir feel,  mixed up with Ensign Flandry and the Foundation series-
>there are still pocket empires, the core, wilderness, and the frontier is
>still there for those who need to just get away.  Admitedly, there will be
>the great temptation to change "history," but that's just part of the fun.
>
>Damien Fox
>phocks@goodnet.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:25:25 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deck plan format (was: Leviathan (was: Starhips))

"Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com> wrote:

>Well, if looks likes PDF has gained something of a consensus.
>I'd still suggest GIFs or JPGs.  Those formats go beyond
>just Macs and Intel machines.

So does pdf - UNIX, Solaris.... have a look at www.adobe.com. Frankly, the
Amiga and Atari machines are dead as a format.

>What type of compression (if
>any) does PDF offer?  Given the nature of deckplans, I'm sure
>that they compress very well under the RLE (run length encoding)
>scheme that GIF uses. There's also the easy viewing via the
>web or a browser.  Finally, there are a number of free PBEM
>gaming aids (mine included) that directly import images for
>use as maps.

PDF images from a bitmap program are JPEG compressed IIRC. From a vector
program they are included in the generally bastardised postscript format
that pdf is.

>Acrobat in any form is an additional download and converting
>back to GIF/JPG is tedious at best.

If it's enabled, you can cut and paste graphics or text, which isn't a
hardship.

>I can see using PDF if
>you want to have better control against alteration.  But, that
>is going to leave a lot of GMs that want to customize a deck
>plan in a lurch.

So draw your own ;-) Or use a program which reads Acrobat like Illustrator.
Or use the graphics selector and cut and paste it into a bitmap editor.
It'll become easier when MacOS X comes out with built in pdf support.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:30:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:

>	It's also the ONLY aircraft so vital to modern warfare that NATO
>supposedly operated them jointly. Not borrowed from member air
>forces. Bought by NATO as a whole, flown by integrated NATO crews.
>It's the AWACS. Anybody want to argue about whether AWACS is useful?

The RAF bought its own when the Nimrod version project was cancelled.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:59:40 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 
> Black ICE wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> > LTC Always realized at one point that he had commanded airborne
> >infantry companies that could put more dismounted infantrymen on the
> >battlefield than his entire mech infantry _battalion task force_.
> 
> Of course, a mech infantry task force can sit back a bit and inflict
> some suppressing fire on that leg infantry company. Even better, if it's
> a really a task force (i.e. one company of infantry have been traded for
> a company of tanks) the defenders are in a world of hurt. Tanks, IFVs
> and supporting troops against leg infantry?
> 
~grumble, grumble, wasn't talking about dirty nasty legs...~

Depends in large part on the terrain.  Put that company of paratroopers
in close terrain (say, an urban area, or some wadi-infested parts of
NTC), and that mech infantry task force would have an unpleasant task
ahead.  OTOH, in open terrain, against even marginally competent
treadheads, those paratroopers (dug in or not) would probably be a
hundred or more "Regret to inform you" telegrams waiting to happen.

ObTrav:  As long as wars are fought on planetary surfaces, there will
always be a place on the battlefield for the infantryman walking point
with his rifle.

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:58:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

>>I'd assume that most ships are built such that if you place the stern
>>(with all the engines and reactor) towards the star, you'll be shielded
>>well enough in the rest of the ship.
>
> As most Traveller ships seem to be built more like space capable tanks than
> normal spaceship (even merchants got armour 60 in Striker for example) I
> think canon Trav ships are more or less immune to flares.

Won't work. The problem with high energy protons is that "heavy"
barriers (metallic hulls, superdense, etc) actually make things *worse*
unless they are a couple of *meters* thick. 

The protons *slam* to a stop in the heavy stuff, and kick up enormous
*showers* of secondary particles. So not only are you trading one
particle for as many as a dozen, but because the secondary particles
are so much slower, they are moving at an ideal velocity to damage
tissues. The raw high energy stuff can zip right thru with minimal
damage (most of the time). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:03:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
>> > While checking out Michael Vailancourt's new Belter rules...I
>> > saw that he had rules for damage from solar flares while
>> > conducting an EVA....Generally...don't suits from TL 9 provide
>> > protection from solar radiation...I have no hard science
>> > background so I'm not sure on weather flares would distrup
>> > in-system  communications as well..Just some thought...
>>
>> The radiation from a flare requires several *meters* of water
>> (or the equivalent) as shielding. Metallic shielding is useless
>> as the high energy protons will generate *secondary* particle
>> showers that will result in *worse* damage on the other side. 
>>
>> Even at TL-15 I can't see a spacesuit being able to protect
>> against a major flare. 
>
>
> As I understand it the Earth's radiation shield is  its  magnetic
> field ... could a TL15 PLSS unit have a high-energy magnetic coil
> (good for an hour, say) to generate  a  strong  enough  field  to
> protect the suit occupant during EVAs?  And would a field of this
> 'density' by unhealthy?  (Or is my science wrong?)
>
> (Visions of a suited figure with aurora borealis round  his  head
> and feet.)

Alas, a field will only *deflect* the particles. The stuff deflercted
from the equator gets *pulled in faster* at the poles. Oops!

And the field strengths required would be distinctly unfriendly to any
electronics nearby. It'd also tend to nail you to the ship's hull. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:40:10 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate

We now have two established timelines for the post-1116 period.
In one of them, Emperor Strephon dies, because Archduke Dulinor
felt that it was the only way to force change in the Imperium.
In the other, Archduke Dulinor dies, for reasons unknown - but
somehow, I think someone tipped off the Emperor.

The What If:

Suppose that, rather than planning an assassination, Dulinor
decided to try to start a public (but anonymous) debate on the
merits of the kind of changes he wanted to see, and there was an
implicit invitation to others to participate in the debate.  For
you student of United States history, think of the Federalist and
AntiFederalist Papers.  How might the debate have taken shape?
Might the Emperor have been convinced to consider at least some
of Dulinor's ideas?  How would the people of the Imperium have
responded?

The Debate:

OK, the stage is set.  At some point in the not-to-distant
future, Dulinor will be posting some opening comments (although
not under that name, and nobody *knows* that it's him).  I'd like
to see others from this list participate - in persona as a
citizen of the Imperium - in the debate.  If we can build up
enough of an interesting debate, I will do my best to get decent
code written so that Freelance Traveller can have a "Speaker's
Corner" where further in-persona debates can occur.  For that to
happen, however, requires _interest_ in the concept, and active
participation in this trial balloon.

Comments on the idea, before His Grace starts writing?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:54:16 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Leviathan (was: Starhips)

Rob Prior wrote:

> Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> > It would be a good choice as well.  Very interesting ship with
> > a great many paculiarities like redundant drives and an
> > asteroind hull.
>
> Leviathan wasn't an asteroid hull. Had redundant drives, though.
> A good choice.
>
> Craig, could you turn your talents to the Leviathan?

I'll give it a try. It might be hard reproducing the redundancy of the
Leviathan using existing GT design rules, though. I might do the first
draft without the redundant drives, to see how close I can get to the
original design. Stay tuned...

Here it is:

- -----8<----------------------------------------------------------
1800ton Leviathan class Merchant Cruiser, Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 5 x Commo/Sensor, 7 x
 Engineering, 6 x Gunnery, 2 x Stewards, 1 x Medical, 1 x Computer, 4
 x Science/Lab, 4 x Flight
 Total Crew = 33

Specifications:
 1800ton Fair Streamlined Hull, Normal Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Expensive Metal (Default), DR 200, PD 4, +10 size mod, 453.0968 MCr,
 83895 HP, Turrets 1200 HP, Basic Stealth, Basic Emissions Cloaking, 1
 Hardened Command Bridge, 1 Engineering, 4 Utility, 308 Maneuver, 72
 Powered Jump, 540 Jump Fuel (180 for Jump 1), 3 Fuel Processor (22.5
 hrs to process), 43 Staterooms (32 Crew, 11 High Passage, 0 Middle
 Passage), 10 Low Berth (40 capacity, 0 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 2
 Lab, 200 Cargo, 1 Power Plant (40 MW output, 24 MW excess), 1
 Unpowered ContraGrav (8000 tons CG lift, 16 MW), 2 x 10 tons capacity
 Vehicle Bay (10std Lifeboat), 1 x 40 tons capacity Space Dock (40std
 Pinnace or smaller), 1 x 100 tons capacity Space Dock (100std Shuttle
 or smaller), 18 turrets - 14 Triple 360Mj Laser Turrets, 2 Triple
 Missile Turrets, 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets

Performance:
 Jump 3, EMass 3852.16 tons, LMass 5392.16 tons (Estimated carried
 mass = 540 tons), EMass 3150.16 tons (less fuel), LMass 4690.16 tons
 (less fuel), Air Speed 2292 mph (5833km/h), Acceleration - 3.2G
 Empty, 2.28G Loaded, 3.91G Empty (less Fuel), 2.63G Loaded (less
 Fuel)


Notes:

 Design Stats for Unpowered Contragravity Module:
 1 spaces, 4 tons, 0.8 MCr, 16 MW, 8000 tons lift

- -----8<----------------------------------------------------------

> "Starhips"?  Sounds like a brand of jeans... :-)

>From the seventies....

Craig


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:55:17 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: deckplans

Cory Davis wrote:

> Hi All
>
> In talking about the new deckplans people wanted, has anybody
> noticed that in GT: Alien Races I the Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien
> Races I, p. 97) is missing the Gcarrier spacedock, but more
> curiously the Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99) has
> identical decks 1 and 2, is this a typo, Because it seems to
> be missing a bridge
>
> what does everybody think ?

I saw this (only just getting my copy here in Oz) and agree,
something is wrong. Time to check SJG's web site and see what
the errata has to say...bummer.

> Cory


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:16:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

In mail you write:

> Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote 
>
>> The Sayat Board for Optimization and Operationalization of Munitions 
>> is belatedly pleased to offer:
>
>> MANLY-MAN-POWERED DUELLING FIGHTER
>> Power: 308 cubic meters of manly man, producing 1.55 MW; 100 hours
>> fuel 
>> 25Mj N-PAW (TL-C)  MW input 0.694 
>> Designed using FFS (original), plus CSC for "rower" power source. 
>> Note that every component is muscle-powered.  
>
> The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be somewhat
> greater than those listed in previous Traveller publications.  I think
> that they are somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 5,000 watts
> per m^3.  At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where on earth did you get the above figure? 

> 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.

Au Contraire. I don't think that figure is all that far out of line.
Consider that the heat output of a person in an office or theater is
around 100 watts (standard engineering "rule of thumb" for figuring
heat load on HVAC systems). 

Next check out the power requirements for things like the Gossammer
Albatross and other human powered vehicles. 

Also note that *rowing* is an ineffecient method of coupling human
strength to a drive train. Properly designed *pedals* work much better.
You get to use the much stronger leg muscles. And if you are trying for
maximized output, you can do as a few human powered land vehicles have
done and have the hands "pedalling" as well.

Note that a semi-reclining position allows the best use of leg power.
The pedaller can brace his back agianst the backrest and exert forces
several times *greater* than his body weight (one of the problems with
a standard bike is that the force on the downstroke is limited to your
body weight, using pedals that allow you to "pull" with the other leg
only improve this slightly). 

Arm power will be notably less, but in a well trained athlete the arms
can still exert forces in excess of body weight. 

Luckily, since it's electrical power that's needed, not direct
mechanical power, you can use some intermediary such that the
individuals can exert maximum effort *without* needing to be
synchronized.

I'd guess that having their efforts either compress air or "pump"
hydraulic fluid would be the most efficient coupling mechanism. The
pressure could then be used to drive the generator. Much more efficent
than individual generators at each seat.

Ah! I just remembered the applicable formula. W=Fd. 

So, lets see. 200 kilos of "push" = 2000 newtons. Thru a 1/2 meter
"stroke". That's 1 kJoule per stroke. At one stroke per second, that's
one *kilowatt*. 

Let's drop it to a "mere" 100 kilos. That's 500 watts. Still more than
the 350 you don't believe in, and well within the capacity of anybody
who can pedal a bike uphill at one stroke per second. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #163
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 19 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 164



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)
Re: Milieu
Re: Solar Flares
Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)
Empress Marava / Prince Teriadeven 
Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 
Re: Imperial What If
Re: Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)
Re: Starship laser rendering
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #163
Re: deckplans
Re : Manly Men as a power source (return of SayBOOM)
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Imperial What If
Re: Deckplan Orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:46:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

In mail you write:

> I Wrote:
>> The wings are actually intended to be a means
>> of locomotion in the water, being flexable /
>> mechanical in nature.   I added a comment to
>> the drawing that should clear up your concerns....
>
>
> Joe Pettit Wrote:
>> That could be extraordinarily difficult  to do from a
>> mechanical standpoint.
>
> Given todays technologies perhaps... but how long
> ago would the wing of a passenger jet have been
> considered 'extraordinarilty difficult' to construct?
> ContraGravity, robotics, advanced plastics, a few
> more hundred years of submarine experience,
> and perhaps even technology exchanged with alien
> aquatic races, could produce ships that 'swim'
> through the oceans.

Data Point:

In the late 60s the Navy was testing scale model of a sub that "swam"
by sending "waves" along the length of its cylindrical body. Basicly,
the hull had a flexible covering that could be rapidly moved towards or
away from the hull. 

So at the bow, the cover would rise in a circular "hump" that formed a
ring around the hull. By expanding/contracting the right segments in
sequence you got the effect of the "hump" moving smoothly towards the
stern, pushing water along with it. In operation there'd be several
"humps" moving the length of the hull in synch with each other. 

Performance wasn't as good as propellers. On the other hand, it made
*no* noises. Just the thing for lurking around trying to spot enemy
subs before they spotted you.

I'm sure that scaling it up was impractical. And is probably *still*
impractical. But I can think of a few possible techonologies that might
allow a full size one. It'd require some *weird* materials though. Some
sort of metal that could change shape on command. Which is also darn
near what you'd need to have *reliable* "iris" doors. So maybe at later
Imperial tech levels?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:42:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation (long)

In mail you write:

> A couple more thoughts:
>
> Above 5,000sdt, the decks on a perpendicular thrust ship are large enough
> to be efficient, even in a needle design.
>
> Below 5,000sdt, the classic design is a flying saucer with its engine
> in the belly. It flies "sideways" in atmospheres as though parallel
> decked but has perpendicular thrust for spaceflight.
>
> (Its a classic design because I believe that the Vilani were using
>  them for thousands of years before the Solomani wingless 747s arrived.)

It's also the standard K'kree design. At a guess, they can't use the
needle/wedge config because even with "parallel" decks, it's just too
damn *narrow* for the herd to feel comfortable. 

So, given the need for essentially square or circular decks, they
picked circular and use "two" decks in a saucer. The "living" deck, and
a "machinery" deck. The machinery deck is visited mostly by repair
robots. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:19:44 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Milieu

"Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>writes:
>But surely that's exactly what we have in Milieu Zero?
>
>>How about right at the beginning of the Long Night?  We get that
>wonderful
>>film noir feel,  mixed up with Ensign Flandry and the Foundation series-
>>there are still pocket empires, the core, wilderness, and the frontier is
>>still there for those who need to just get away.  Admitedly, there will
>be
>>the great temptation to change "history," but that's just part of the
>fun.
>>
>>Damien Fox
>>phocks@goodnet.com

Not quite. In Milieu Zero the Imperium is on the way up. At the beginning
of the Long Night it's on the way down. Different feeling, even if the
setting is very similar.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:22:01 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

<> As most Traveller ships seem to be built more like space capable tanks than
>> normal spaceship (even merchants got armour 60 in Striker for example) I
>> think canon Trav ships are more or less immune to flares.
>Won't work. The problem with high energy protons is that "heavy"
>barriers (metallic hulls, superdense, etc) actually make things *worse*
>unless they are a couple of *meters* thick. 

However, it's canon that Traveller starships exist and that crews don't die
every time they jump into a system that happens to be having a flare. 
There must exist some semi-magical TL-10 or so radiation shielding material;
it's a technological necessity.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:00:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)

In mail you write:

>           Cargo capacity is 195 tons. 

>           An onboard Ore Smelter/ Refinery is carried, capable of up to 31
> tons per hour processing.

>         The seven-hour turn-around time is a bit of a marketing brochure.
> It presumes almost pure ore going through the smelter.  The average will be
> closer to *70* hours (10% average purity).

Well, for one thing, 195 tons is *nothing*. At your "10% purity" and
assuming the "average" density of 4 for "stony" material (ie "rock"),
you started out with an "asteroid" that was all of 10 meters in diameter!

Also, ore-forming processes tend to require both lots of water and a
fair amount of gravity. Asteroids are going to be one *very* roughly
differentiated into the four types/layers:

1. Icy (frozen water, ammonia, methane, and the like). Only found in
   outer system or in *big* bodies (large moons/small planets)

2. Chondritic. What gets left behind after an icy body is exposed to
   heat and stellar UV for a while. Lots of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen
   and nitrogen compounds (CHON). Sort of a black tarry mess to a sort
   of charcoal. *Very* black.

3. Stony. Silicates, with lots of aluminum, magnesium, titanium and
   other "siderophilic" elements. Your basic "country rock", sort of
   like basalt. Also lots of calcium, potasium, sodium, etc.

4. Nickel-iron. This is what was left over after all the more active
   elements glommed onto oxygen, chlorine and what-have-you.

As the system formed, bodies were "dirty snowballs", a random mixture of
ices and dust grains. There were lots of short-lived radioisotopes
present, so the larger bodies (say anything more than a few 100 meters)
melted on the inside. The dust grains sank to the center, and since
they were the primary source of the heat, they melted too. That formed
the "stony" material as the various components of the "dust" reacted
both with the liquified "ice" and with each other. And the stuff that
didn't react got left to sink to the center, forming the nickel-iron. 

Thus you get bodies that are ice-stone-iron as you move inwards. In the
areas closer to the new star the ice boils away at least partly, and
you get CHON material.

As time went on, these bodies cooled, while at the same time they
collided with each other. Big ones got bigger, small one got broken
apart. And the boundaries between layers would be weak points. 

So the asteroids are made up of chunks of the various layers. The
largest might even be stone over an intact iron core. Most of the rest
are likely to be just a single "layer". 

Refining depends a *lot* on which kind of material you are processing. 

Ice is VALUABLE. Not only does it have hydrogen for fuel, it also has
oxygen for air, and nitrogen, which is needed to grow food! The carbon
doesn't hurt either. 

Refining consists of melting the ice, and "distilling" it. You wind up
with water, ammonia, and methane, plus small amounts of other
compounds.

Ammonia is a damn good starting place for making fertilizer and
explosives, so it would likely be sold as such unless you needed fuel
badly! of hydrogen. In that case, you'd crack it to nitrogen and
hydrogen and carry the nitrogen as LN2.

Water is easier to haul as water, and nice to have. And ice is easy to
handle. 

Methane is also easier to transport as itself. And it's a good starting
point for synthesizing various hydrocarbons (think oils and plastics).

The leftover sludge is worth something too, but it's not worth refining
on board. You'd sell it to an outfit that buys it and refines out the
valuable parts, likely the same folks who buy CHON. The exception might
be if you find some undifferentiated "dirty snowballs", then you'd
filter out the dust grains before distilling the ices. The dust grains
aren't likely to be all the useful. So you might dump them, or since
they *do* have some trace elements, you might dump the few kilos of
dust into your "garden" plot.

Cnondrites are a *mess* to refine. Not worth the trouble of doing it on
ship. But they are pretty valuable as is. You'd likely grind them up,
and seperate out any rocky bits. The ground CHON goes in the hold, and
gets sold the processors back at base. It's valuable as a starting
point for a lot of chemical synthesis processes, and because of the
high nitrogen content.

Nickel-iron can be refined. Though it's tempting to just leave it
"as-is" and drag it to a big smelter. It's not that valuable. The
valuable stuff might be what's leftover *after* you extract the nickel
and iron. But a ship can't make a profit on that unless you get lucky
and hit a body that's high in the "other" stuff. Most nickel-iron
bodies get a few sample taken to see if they might be "rich" in
something, and if they aren't, they get a beacon hung on them. When
they get "close" to one of the big smelters, they'll send out a tug and
make you an offer. Usually you'll take it. Your beacon gets shipped
back to your base.

Stony bodies are problematic. They are where most of the "good"
elements are found. But at the same time, the good stuff is spread
pretty thinly. There's nothing to *concentrate* it they way processes
on planets do. So it's sort of like mining seawater. Sure, there's lots
of good stuff in there, but you have to process so much *junk* to get
to it. 

Still, there are *some* variations in composition. A rock might be
richer than normal in things like calcium or sodium. That might make it
worthwhile. 

But for the most part, stony bodies rarely even get tagged. Folks use
them to erect shelters on, and dig into them to make bases. And big
operators will mine them to produce silicon, aluminum, magnesium,
titanium, etc. Most of the silicon will get reacted wil the oxygen
produced while liberating the metals. This will form various quartz or
glass materials.

Standard *cheap* construction in the belt uses sandwich panels of
aluminum with a quartz & vacuum honycomb in the middle. Insulates ok,
soundproofs fairly well, is light. It'd get used for non-loadbearing
panels. Loadbearing stuff is likely to be steel.

The "leftovers" from the first stage of processing stony bodies will
get processed for other things. I don't have an elemental abundance
table handy, so I can't say which would get gone for first. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:28:18 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Empress Marava / Prince Teriadeven 

As many of you know, the Empress Marava deckplans in Classic Traveller
Supplement 7 (Traders and Gunboats) are WAY oversized... coming in at
roughly 400 tons instead of 200 tons.  In an effort to make plans that match
the Empress Marava's image that ARE *200* tons I created plans for the
Prince Teriadeven Class Far Trader.

See:
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/Teriadeven.gif
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

As always, comments welcome/desired.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:29:27 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Suppose that, rather than planning an assassination, Dulinor
> decided to try to start a public (but anonymous) debate on the
> merits of the kind of changes he wanted to see, and there was an
> implicit invitation to others to participate in the debate.  

<<snip>>

> The Debate:
> 
> OK, the stage is set.  At some point in the not-to-distant
> future, Dulinor will be posting some opening comments (although
> not under that name, and nobody *knows* that it's him).  I'd like
> to see others from this list participate - in persona as a
> citizen of the Imperium - in the debate.  If we can build up
> enough of an interesting debate, I will do my best to get decent
> code written so that Freelance Traveller can have a "Speaker's
> Corner" where further in-persona debates can occur.  For that to
> happen, however, requires _interest_ in the concept, and active
> participation in this trial balloon.
> 
> Comments on the idea, before His Grace starts writing?
> --

Tres *&#%ing COOL idea!

Ahem.  I mean, I would be pleased and honored to participate.

BTW, this idea reminds me of how Peter Wiggin laid the groundwork for
his Hegemony over mankind in _Ender's Game_....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:12:49 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

>What was 'General' about the attack?  Were there other episodes?  
>Did other shows advance this stereo type?
>Charles L.

I am not sure what she meant about a 'General' attack.  You should ask 
her [Julie Garth].  You can respond to her at 
http://townhall.webrpg.com/ and just follow the links under roleplaying 
games | science fiction | science fiction games (general).  Her post was 
titled: <IMPORTANT> All RPG PLAYERS   Julie Garth   01/27/1999 10:47

Were there other episodes?  I don't know.  Ask her; I don't watch the 
show.
Did other shows advance this stereo type?  There were a few shows and 
movies that put forth a very negative view of role-playing games.  The 
only one I can recall off hand is Monsters & Mazes.  In that movie Tom 
Hanks (I think) played a character that was into role-playing and ended 
up losing touch with reality because of the game.  The movie ended, as 
far as I can remember, with him playing with his friends one last time 
while he was at the funny farm.

With all of the talk about GMs being gods and worshiped by their players 
it reminded me of this post.


"Earth First! We can log the rest of the planets later."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:13:01 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: (MT)  Susquehanna Class Frigate and Personality 

At 09:24 AM 2/18/99 +0000, you wrote:

>How many jumps of fuel does it have? (IIRC jump fuel calaclation in MT is
>not as simple as 10% per jump, or was that TNE?)

Jump fuel is sufficient for 1 Jump five or any combination of jumps
equalling 5 parsecs.

>>>Tech 16? In whose Y1119 navy?
>>
>>The Imperial Navy in the Domain of Deneb.  The Susquehannas were built at
>>Vincennes, a TL16 world in Deneb Sector.  My current campaign is MT set in
>>the G:T timeline.
>
>TL16 on a 2000std raider designed to go after free traders, subbies and
>corsairs seems a bit overkill.
>On a deep penetration raider which tends to take casualties due to bad
>luck, it seems to be giving away technology to the enemy.
>On the Vargr border, you could even argue for using tech 13 or 14.

You could make a case for the lower tech levels, but I would wonder why you
would give away one of the biggest advantages the Imperium has over any of
its neighbors: better technology?

IMTU, the lower tech, 13-, is usually for planetary navies, unless the
planet is of a higher tech level.  TL-14 and 15 are for the reserves, and
TL 15+ is mainline forces.

The Susquehannas are as much a propoganda tool as they are a military tool.




Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:13:17 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

The What If:



Suppose that, rather than planning an assassination, Dulinor

decided to try to start a public (but anonymous) debate on the

merits of the kind of changes he wanted to see, and there was an

implicit invitation to others to participate in the debate.


A fun idea, but I've never been clear on exactly what Dulinor wanted?  From
the MT Rebellion Sourcebook: 

Dulinor wants [the Imperium] to exert more influence on [planetary]
governments, charging them with more democratic, responsive policies.

But that's pretty vague, isn't it?  --S

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:00:38 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Manly men as a power source (Re: Return of SayBOOM)

>> Now, if you were simply converting these manly men to energy via some
form
>> of advanced technology (i.e., combining them with anti-manly-men in a
>> Manly-Anti-Manly (MAM) reactor) I think you could argue for a much
*higher*
>> power output.
>
>Though you're on to something here that could well put the BMF drive to
>shame, it's certainly going to be a violation of the Traveller Decency
>Act, and thus unpublishable (much less canonizationable).  Besides, large
>chunks of the list would virulently find it tasteless.



Bah! Who will dare to stop the advance of technology merely because it's
tasteless!?! It didn't stop the design of the M2 Bradley!!! You can't even
get a whole squad into one! Why if I had a nickel for every hair-brained
military aquisition ... err, uhm ... oops. Wrong thread ...

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:05:38 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Starship laser rendering

>It's at the bottom of the page. As you can see it's pretty TNE-ish. My
>take is that there is a small, clamshell  (or even flat) opening where
>the 'turret' is on the ship. When in firing position, the doors open and
>the laser firing assembly is raised out of the opening, aimed and fired.

Okay, I give ... what are the multiple "flower seeds" inside the array? I
thought that a TNE laser needed to be one big 'o lens (or a "honeycomb" of
lenses).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:31:53 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Jesse yer killin me!  But I know some Deputys at work that would agree with
ya!

Todd
Vision-Forge-Graphics.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:34:32 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Hey!!  That's how you tried to teach me to shoot you B****RD!!!  Jes, hows the
GURPs thing going or are you not allowed to say.

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:41:30 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate

I really, REALLY like this idea!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:49:53 -0500
From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #163

>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:36 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM
>
>>> Alternately, you could equip the rowing stations with dispensers for
>>> performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, and get to work gene-splicing a
>>> crew...
>>
>>I believe the former would be the Famille Spofulam philosophy, while the
>>latter would be that of SayBOOM.
>
>  In other words, FS are chronically short-sighted?

Speaking as he who has to deal with Darroch on a weekly basis, you don't
know the half of it!

Future installments of our campaign story will further investigate the
effects of Darroch-sponsored chemical abuse in other characters, and the
explosive effects thereof.

This is so topical I might just try and squeeze it out tomorrow. . . . 

_______________
Ross Coburn
ross@ican.net

My Traveller Geek Code:
tc+ tm++ tn-- t4- tg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:46:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: deckplans

In a message dated 2/18/99 3:48:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
craig_barnett@iname.com writes:

<<  Hi All
 >
 > In talking about the new deckplans people wanted, has anybody
 > noticed that in GT: Alien Races I the Vargr Corsair (GT: Alien
 > Races I, p. 97) is missing the Gcarrier spacedock, but more
 > curiously the Vargr Trader (GT: Alien Races I, pp. 98-99) has
 > identical decks 1 and 2, is this a typo, Because it seems to
 > be missing a bridge
 >
 > what does everybody think ?
 
 I saw this (only just getting my copy here in Oz) and agree,
 something is wrong. Time to check SJG's web site and see what
 the errata has to say...bummer.
 
 > Cory
  >>

I posted this to the errata section at SJG; no response...:-( . As for the
Vargr corsair; the G-carrier can fit in the cargo hold section to port of the
the spare module dock, though yes, the G-carrier should have a dedicated bay
in addition to the cargo bay...
Also; according to the CT Vargr aliens module; the trader should have only
five staterooms, and five crew; and thus carries NO passengers....hmm....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:47:25 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Manly Men as a power source (return of SayBOOM)

Joseph Dietrich wrote :-
> What I would like to know is how many manly-men it would take to row a TL7
> wet navy supertanker. You know, like in the motion picture _Waterworld_. ;-)

Using the following ballpark figures :-
Supertanker : 555800 tonnes dwt : 400m long, beam 63m, draught 28.5m ;
speed 16kn (28km/h). Cargo fraction 25% of gross mass.

We're looking at a minimum vehicle mass of about 300000 tonnes.

To get a top speed of 2 m/sec, we need
(0.9 X sqrt[0.9 X 50000]) kW using Terry McInne's modification of the
Brunel equation given a typical deep displacement hull.

This is approximately 191kW.

Given a baseline power output for rowers of 35W per 70kg rower, + 7W for
each point of strength or endurance over 7, so manly men (?min
Str=End=10?) have an average power out of 77W.

We need somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2480 'Manly Men'.

References
Wet Navy Rules from Challenge
FF&S1 ship design sequence (available on AAB website?)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer in Waiting

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:39:24 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In a message dated 2/18/99 3:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< The protons *slam* to a stop in the heavy stuff, and kick up enormous
 *showers* of secondary particles. So not only are you trading one
 particle for as many as a dozen, but because the secondary particles
 are so much slower, they are moving at an ideal velocity to damage
 tissues. The raw high energy stuff can zip right thru with minimal
 damage (most of the time). 
  >>

This sounds like a PAW description to this liberal arts wienie...Why does
armor stop PAWs (sometimes...:-)) ala HG and MT, but not solar flares?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:51:21 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

In a message dated 2/18/99 6:20:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
StevenA201@aol.com writes:

<< Dulinor wants [the Imperium] to exert more influence on [planetary]
 governments, charging them with more democratic, responsive policies.
  >>

I was under the impression that he wanted to end the "hands off" and Imperium
is "the space between planets" philosophies, and I think that this is a good
thing...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:05:15 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

>> What are the arguments for/against decks being oriented parallel or
>> perpendicular to thrust?  It seems to me that given the existence of grav
>> plates, the decks should just be oriented any way you like, but some seem
>> to think that parallel to thrust is wrong.  I'm not sure I understand why.
>> Wouldn't it just make sense to make the decks so that they're parallel to
>> the ground when the ship has landed?
>>
>> Charles C.
>>
>Without taking sides in the Great Debate, I'll sum up a few arguments
>for each position (these are from memory of the debate a while back, so
>I may have forgotten some issues):

Your summary of the arguments are accurate. However, you don't mention that
the arguments in favor of parallel decks are fallacious.

>FOR PARALLEL DECKS:
>
>1.  More efficient dirtside cargo handling.  Parallel deck designs can
>have more of the cargo area closer to the ground than most perpendicular
>deck designs.

You can design your cargo area as close to the ground as you want with any
deck orientation. Any configuration can be designed with and deck
orientation; parallel deck designs have no advantage and perpendicular
decks have no disadvantage.

>2.  Resistance to meson gun fire.  Of all streamlined hull forms in High
>Guard, the needle/wedge is most resistant to meson gun fire.  A
>perpendicular deck needle/wedge ship would have a vast number of
>relatively small decks, as ships of this configuration tend to be long,
>relative to height and width.  Perpendicular decks are most efficient in
>more compact hull forms, such as the sphere or flattended sphere.  These
>hull forms are much more vulnerable (under High Guard) to meson gun fire
>than the needle/wedge.

Perpendicular deck ships can use any configuration including needle/wedge;
the design rules are the same for any deck orientation. A needle/wedge
configuration can be designed with perpendicular decks along the long axis
if required.

>3.  Stability on the ground.  If one intends to land a given starship,
>then one has three basic options:
>
>	a.  Design the ship with parallel decks, and land it much as one would
>land a 20th century airplane.
>
>	b.  Design the ship using a compact hull form, with perpendicular
>decks.  This works all right, unless the ship needs to be built to
>resist meson guns under High Guard.
>
>	c.  Design the ship to be a tall tail-lander.  If the designer chooses
>the needle/wedge hull form (for High Guard resistance to meson gun
>fire), and further chooses perpendicular decks, then the ship on the
>ground would be a relatively tall structure, on a relatively narrow
>base.  Such a design would be unusually vulnerable to high winds or
>seismic tremors.

This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
engineering statics book.

>4.  Aerodynamics.  Ships optimized for atmospheric performance tend to
>be long and narrow (needle/wedge, cone, or cylinder configurations).
>These tend to favor parallel deck design.  Further, ships intended to
>spend significant amounts of time in atmosphere are, by definition,
>expected to spend time inside the gravity well of whatever body holds
>the atmosphere within which they are expected to operate.  Once gravity
>becomes a dominant issue in ship orientation, then, in an aerodynamic
>hull form such as the needle/wedge, deck orientation becomes important.
>Under gravity, in an aerodynamic hull form, parallel decks offer the
>advantage of having the decks aligned with the force of planetary
>gravity.

It is not true that "long and narrow" configurations favor parallel deck
design; the design rules are the same in either case.

Airplanes are designed with parallel decks to reduce wind resistance and
because it's more efficient to build wings parallel to the ship body. I
concede that bodies incapable of over 1 G of acceleration and which require
wings for lift are more efficient with parallel decks. Traveller starships
are not.

>5.  Aesthetics.  There are some who think that a needle/wedge ship just
>looks kewl.  (This is most important in yachts [which truly _must_ look
>kewl, regardless of practical considerations] and warships [which need
>to have that "right-end/ wrong-end" factor, to achieve maximum
>intimidation].)  Since (as mentioned above) such ships work best with a
>parallel deck layout, such ships will generally _have_ a parallel deck
>layout.

Again, deck orientation has *no effect* on the ship configuration; you can
make any shape with either parallel or perpendicular decks.

>FOR PERPENDICULAR DECKS:
>
>1.  Less need for artificial gravity.  A perpendicular deck ship can use
>1-G of thrust to provide a reasonable semblance of gravity.  This works,
>even if the artificial gravity fails entirely.  A parallel deck ship's
>crew would have far more problems functioning effectively than that of a
>perpendicular deck ship's, should the artificial gravity have problems.

A perpendicular-deck ship without artificial gravity can safely maneuver at
1 G. A parallel-deck ship without artificial gravity can arguably
accelerate at a fraction of a G, though frankly it is unsafe at any speed.

>2.  Lower power usage for artificial gravity/inertial compensation.  As
>a corollary of point 1, a perpendicular deck ship can get by with less
>inerial compensation, and thus use less power.  Since the power plant of
>a ship is among the most expensive components, this means that, Dton for
>Dton, a perpendicular deck ship will be less expensive, and therefore
>more profitable, than a parallel deck ship.

Or, alternatively, more inertial compensation for the same money.

>3.  Less need for contra-grav drives.  Since perpendicular deck ships
>tend to be tail-landers, they have little or no need for a CG drive in
>atmosphere (their main drive thrust will be directly opposed to the pull
>of gravity anyway).  As in point 2 above, this means less power draw,
>and fewer crewmembers required, and therefore lower costs (and greater
>profitability).  Parallel deck ships, OTOH, will need either honkin' big
>CG drives or long runways to launch from dirtside.
>
>4.  More efficient armoring.  In T4's FF&S2, armor is purchased based on
>surface area.  Since compact hull forms, such as the sphere, are best
>suited for perpendicular deck ships, perpendicular deck designs will
>need less mass and volume of armor to achieve a given thickness.  This
>means that a smaller (and thus less power-hungry) maneuver drive will be
>needed to move a perpendicular deck ship.  Again, this results in a
>smaller power plant, and fewer crew needed to operate the ship.
>CHA-CHINGGG!

To be fair, perpendicular orientation ships have no advantage here. Surface
area is a function of configuration, and deck orientation has no
correlation with configuration.

>5.  Many ships never land.  If the ship is not intended to sit on the
>dirt, why design it to roll its belly in the mud?  Most ships over a few
>hundred Dtons rarely (if ever) actually land.  Given all the factors in
>favor of perpendicular decks, why design around an improbable event?

You forgot:

6. They are faster. In every version of Traveller there is a limit to the
amount of inertial compensation technically possible. Ships with parallel
decks must devote at least as many Gs of inertial compensation as
acceleration plus one more to provide artificial gravity. Perpendicular
decks need only to compensate 1 G less than maximum acceleration. This
means a ship with perpendicular decks can operate at 2 Gs more acceleration
than an identical design with parallel decks.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #164
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Traveller-digest      Friday, February 19 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 165



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Scandinavian languages
OT| Testing
What if & Aquatic vehicles
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Subject: Re: Solar Flares
Re: Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:05:41 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

>> What are the arguments for/against decks being oriented parallel or
>> perpendicular to thrust?  It seems to me that given the existence of grav
>> plates, the decks should just be oriented any way you like, but some seem
>> to think that parallel to thrust is wrong.  I'm not sure I understand why.
>> Wouldn't it just make sense to make the decks so that they're parallel to
>> the ground when the ship has landed?
>>
>> Charles C.
>>
>Without taking sides in the Great Debate, I'll sum up a few arguments
>for each position (these are from memory of the debate a while back, so
>I may have forgotten some issues):

Your summary of the arguments are accurate. However, you don't mention that
the arguments in favor of parallel decks are fallacious.

>FOR PARALLEL DECKS:
>
>1.  More efficient dirtside cargo handling.  Parallel deck designs can
>have more of the cargo area closer to the ground than most perpendicular
>deck designs.

You can design your cargo area as close to the ground as you want with any
deck orientation. Any configuration can be designed with and deck
orientation; parallel deck designs have no advantage and perpendicular
decks have no disadvantage.

>2.  Resistance to meson gun fire.  Of all streamlined hull forms in High
>Guard, the needle/wedge is most resistant to meson gun fire.  A
>perpendicular deck needle/wedge ship would have a vast number of
>relatively small decks, as ships of this configuration tend to be long,
>relative to height and width.  Perpendicular decks are most efficient in
>more compact hull forms, such as the sphere or flattended sphere.  These
>hull forms are much more vulnerable (under High Guard) to meson gun fire
>than the needle/wedge.

Perpendicular deck ships can use any configuration including needle/wedge;
the design rules are the same for any deck orientation. A needle/wedge
configuration can be designed with perpendicular decks along the long axis
if required.

>3.  Stability on the ground.  If one intends to land a given starship,
>then one has three basic options:
>
>	a.  Design the ship with parallel decks, and land it much as one would
>land a 20th century airplane.
>
>	b.  Design the ship using a compact hull form, with perpendicular
>decks.  This works all right, unless the ship needs to be built to
>resist meson guns under High Guard.
>
>	c.  Design the ship to be a tall tail-lander.  If the designer chooses
>the needle/wedge hull form (for High Guard resistance to meson gun
>fire), and further chooses perpendicular decks, then the ship on the
>ground would be a relatively tall structure, on a relatively narrow
>base.  Such a design would be unusually vulnerable to high winds or
>seismic tremors.

This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
engineering statics book.

>4.  Aerodynamics.  Ships optimized for atmospheric performance tend to
>be long and narrow (needle/wedge, cone, or cylinder configurations).
>These tend to favor parallel deck design.  Further, ships intended to
>spend significant amounts of time in atmosphere are, by definition,
>expected to spend time inside the gravity well of whatever body holds
>the atmosphere within which they are expected to operate.  Once gravity
>becomes a dominant issue in ship orientation, then, in an aerodynamic
>hull form such as the needle/wedge, deck orientation becomes important.
>Under gravity, in an aerodynamic hull form, parallel decks offer the
>advantage of having the decks aligned with the force of planetary
>gravity.

It is not true that "long and narrow" configurations favor parallel deck
design; the design rules are the same in either case.

Airplanes are designed with parallel decks to reduce wind resistance and
because it's more efficient to build wings parallel to the ship body. I
concede that bodies incapable of over 1 G of acceleration and which require
wings for lift are more efficient with parallel decks. Traveller starships
are not.

>5.  Aesthetics.  There are some who think that a needle/wedge ship just
>looks kewl.  (This is most important in yachts [which truly _must_ look
>kewl, regardless of practical considerations] and warships [which need
>to have that "right-end/ wrong-end" factor, to achieve maximum
>intimidation].)  Since (as mentioned above) such ships work best with a
>parallel deck layout, such ships will generally _have_ a parallel deck
>layout.

Again, deck orientation has *no effect* on the ship configuration; you can
make any shape with either parallel or perpendicular decks.

>FOR PERPENDICULAR DECKS:
>
>1.  Less need for artificial gravity.  A perpendicular deck ship can use
>1-G of thrust to provide a reasonable semblance of gravity.  This works,
>even if the artificial gravity fails entirely.  A parallel deck ship's
>crew would have far more problems functioning effectively than that of a
>perpendicular deck ship's, should the artificial gravity have problems.

A perpendicular-deck ship without artificial gravity can safely maneuver at
1 G. A parallel-deck ship without artificial gravity can arguably
accelerate at a fraction of a G, though frankly it is unsafe at any speed.

>2.  Lower power usage for artificial gravity/inertial compensation.  As
>a corollary of point 1, a perpendicular deck ship can get by with less
>inerial compensation, and thus use less power.  Since the power plant of
>a ship is among the most expensive components, this means that, Dton for
>Dton, a perpendicular deck ship will be less expensive, and therefore
>more profitable, than a parallel deck ship.

Or, alternatively, more inertial compensation for the same money.

>3.  Less need for contra-grav drives.  Since perpendicular deck ships
>tend to be tail-landers, they have little or no need for a CG drive in
>atmosphere (their main drive thrust will be directly opposed to the pull
>of gravity anyway).  As in point 2 above, this means less power draw,
>and fewer crewmembers required, and therefore lower costs (and greater
>profitability).  Parallel deck ships, OTOH, will need either honkin' big
>CG drives or long runways to launch from dirtside.
>
>4.  More efficient armoring.  In T4's FF&S2, armor is purchased based on
>surface area.  Since compact hull forms, such as the sphere, are best
>suited for perpendicular deck ships, perpendicular deck designs will
>need less mass and volume of armor to achieve a given thickness.  This
>means that a smaller (and thus less power-hungry) maneuver drive will be
>needed to move a perpendicular deck ship.  Again, this results in a
>smaller power plant, and fewer crew needed to operate the ship.
>CHA-CHINGGG!

To be fair, perpendicular orientation ships have no advantage here. Surface
area is a function of configuration, and deck orientation has no
correlation with configuration.

>5.  Many ships never land.  If the ship is not intended to sit on the
>dirt, why design it to roll its belly in the mud?  Most ships over a few
>hundred Dtons rarely (if ever) actually land.  Given all the factors in
>favor of perpendicular decks, why design around an improbable event?

You forgot:

6. They are faster. In every version of Traveller there is a limit to the
amount of inertial compensation technically possible. Ships with parallel
decks must devote at least as many Gs of inertial compensation as
acceleration plus one more to provide artificial gravity. Perpendicular
decks need only to compensate 1 G less than maximum acceleration. This
means a ship with perpendicular decks can operate at 2 Gs more acceleration
than an identical design with parallel decks.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:14 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>"Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The best character deaths are in three ways.
>>Pre-arranged (as you did, Dom), heroic selfless giving of a life to 
save
>>others, and the quick fatal response to an incredibly stupid act...
>
>I agree. But sometimes it can give an enormous emotional shock to the
>players/ref when it happens. I've used the third a few times as a ref.
>
>Dom
>

I used it twice. Once to teach a player a lesson about considering 
himself invincible. The second seemed the only choice left.  The player 
fired his weapon and scored a critical success against an NPC. The young 
and nervous crewman (NPC) was behind a small armorglass viewport of a 
merchant vessel's belly turret, and the ship was parked on a dirtside 
tarmac. The shell was a 10mm customized HEAP round and it actually 
damaged the surface of the viewport. The young human male NPC made a 
reaction check, failed it (in favor of aggresion), and promptly returned 
fire with the turret's only weapon, a sandcaster...

My players still laugh about that encounter...

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:15:56 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

>The *only* Traveller material I've see that deals with pop-up turrets
>was in a Challenge magazine article on Q-ships. Can't remember
>the issue #, though.
>


The x-boat tender was the first pop-up turret I saw in Traveller. In 
Traders and Gunboats.

Roger


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:21:16 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

>I used to think television shows and the movies would make this stuff 
up 
>just for ratings.  But after discussing this with Clif and seeing that 
>there are others who agree with him, maybe those shows aren't so far 
>fetched?   ;)
>

I saw that episode and laughed my butt off. I've actually met gamers 
like that, and had a similar reaction.  I have yet to see a sit-com say 
anything positive about gaming, but then again, I remember that most of 
those shows are geared towards a 10th grade education on average.

I figure most of the gamers I know would be more offended by the general 
low quality of television in general...

Roger Barr


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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:35:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <raymond@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

> > Actually there are dialects in Norway that are very hard to understand.
> > Some are impossible if the speaker uses nothing but local words and tone.
> 
> This is true in rural Minnesota and Wisconsin, too.
> Incomprehenible Norwegian and Swedish dialects.
> I'm not kidding.
> 
> Uff da, ya shure, you betcha!

I'm telling Garrison Keillor about this.  And I would recommend reading
"How to Talk Minnesotan" as a guide to this obscure dialect.  Read all
about:
 
*	How to refuse food three times
*	"Salad" and its uses
*	The difference between "not too bad of a deal" and "heckuva deal"

Of course, this does have its uses in Traveller.  If nothing else, all
those glaciated planets needs cultures to go with them - this is an
excellent sourcebook!
 
Victor "But there's no snow in Minnesota this year and we're all rather
weirded out by it" Raymond
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 00:17:38 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: OT| Testing

Just testing a change in address.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:45:17 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: What if & Aquatic vehicles

I like the idea of the "Imperial what if" debate.  What kind of ideology 
did Dulinor follow?  What other anonymous imperial 'big wigs' did you 
have in mind?


>Data Point:
>In the late 60s the Navy was testing scale model of a sub that "swam"
>by sending "waves" along the length of its cylindrical body. Basicly,
>the hull had a flexible covering that could be rapidly moved towards 
>or away from the hull. 
>So at the bow, the cover would rise in a circular "hump" that formed >a 
ring around the hull. By expanding/contracting the right segments >in 
sequence you got the effect of the "hump" moving smoothly towards >the 
stern, pushing water along with it. In operation there'd be >several 
"humps" moving the length of the hull in synch with each >other...   
...So maybe at later Imperial tech levels?
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

This is a cool idea.  I would like to use this in my game.  Any idea how 
to translate it into game terms  (I use MT for vehicle construction).
Clay


"Earth First! We can log the rest of the planets later."


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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:44:32 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>

> Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> > The power ammounts CSC gives for muscle power seem to be
> > somewhat high.  Your manly men are generating 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.

> I thought this was wrong, yeah.  That's why I bothered to design it :)

I understand, that is pretty much the same reason I designed an FFS1 man
portable Meson gun. :)

> > If our manly men are _very_ manly with Str 15 End 15 and Small 
> > Watercraft 5 you will need  8,201 very manly men.  They will _not_
> > fit in the ship.

> Not in _this_ ship.  It shall be redesigned shortly.

> > I think it might be a bit difficult to find 8,201 men with Str 15, 
> > End 15 and Small Watercraft 5 

> As long as we're being practical & rational, could someone calculate 
> the number of such people (or at least, say, Str-F/End-F) on Sylea in M:0?

We could easily calculate the number of Str C  End C individuals at age
12 as (1/36 x 1/36) = 1/1,296.  We know that Syleas Millieu 0 population
was 30 something billion.  If we arbitrarily assume it was 35 billion
and that half of these were male our male population should be 17.5
billion.  [In reality Str C End C individuals are more likely to be male
then female but not in Traveller so we will ignore that data.] The
question then becomes one of what percentages of these men will then
enter careers where they can gain +3 Str & +3 End.  Milliue 0 charecters
should be generated with T4 & they will therefore be earing 5 advanced
every 4 years.  If all these advances go to Str & End then the youngest
Str F End F men will be age 23.  We next need to determine by what age
their aging losses will be enough greater than their skill & stat gains
so as to ensure that they are no longer Str 15 End 15 arbitrarily we
will call that  age 50.  Therefore the group of potential Str F End F
men is a 27 year wide age cohort.  To make opur population model easier
we will assume that _all_ male individuals live to the age of 81 years
when they _all_  die.  Therefore the 23-50 group will be 1/3 of the
total males or 5.833 etc billion.  4,2501,028 of these men will have
been Str C End C at age 18.  If (arbitrarily) 1 in 500 of these men work
up to Str F & End F then we will have 9,002 very many men.  Now we have
to teach them all Small Watercraft 5.

If your model for M:0 Cleon owes a bit two much to Ludwig of Bavaria &
you substitute [fascination for crew rowers] for [fascination with tall
cavalrymen] you may be able to envision these men being gathered up.  It
does not seem all that likely to me although the notion of Cleon being
as mad as Ludwig is amusing.

> > If however you were to reduce the rate of fire on the weapon, lower 
> > its maximum power, reduce hull armor etc [everything Sayboom hates] 
> > you might have a viable design.
> 
> It's as minimized power-wise as it can be -- since it has no maneuver
> drives, the hull armor isn't a power drain; the discharge energy was 
> per the customer's request, and the ROF is as low as is allowed in the 
> FF&S book.  It's legal, just stupid.

How about if you changed the power for the gun from thee manly men
directly to a battery.  The manly men then power up & recharge the
capacitors through their rowing.  Thus you can ignore all that minimum
ROF rot because if your power supply (manly men) has not recharged your
batteries then you can't fire the weapon.

If this was a GURPS Traveller design we could use a soulburner engine
that would get its power from sucking the life force out of the rowers &
killing them.  GURPS Vehicles 2nd ed says (pg 86) that the victim of a
soulburner loses 1 HT/hour for every 10 kW of power provided.  Since
this craft need 1.55 MW it need 155 HT per hour.  If our manly men are
HT 15 then we will have to kill 10 & 1/3 of them per hour. 

I have just suggested using soulburners in Traveller, sometimes I think
that GURPS may be too universal....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:05:08 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

:P

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tascelt@aol.com <Tascelt@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Off-Topic


>Jesse yer killin me!  But I know some Deputys at work that would agree with
>ya!
>
>Todd
>Vision-Forge-Graphics.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:09:28 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

HEY!  That was a spare magazine in my pocket you wonk!  :)

Since you just got on the list, I did a bunch of pics for "Far Trader
Sourcebook", which is currently at the printers.  Next up is the Scouts
sourcebook "First In".  I've got at least four ships to do, along with some
sub-craft.  Oh, and I've got just under a month to do it.  It's amazing how
motivated I can get when good money is involved :)  Then there's another
book which I can't mention yet on deck.

Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Tascelt@aol.com <Tascelt@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: Off-Topic


>Hey!!  That's how you tried to teach me to shoot you B****RD!!!  Jes, hows
the
>GURPs thing going or are you not allowed to say.
>
>Todd
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:20:37 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Bad Equipment
>
>>If you happen to be a high-ranking KGB mole intent on killing as many
>>Americans as possible at the highest possible price to be paid for by the
>>US Treasury, yes.
>
>Go on then - point out the advantages of the BMP-1 or -2 over the M2,
>and then look at the list of disadvantages.
>

For the cost of one M2, you can buy a *lot* of BMP-2s. Probably three, plus
a little timeshare on a ground-attack airraft or a tank.

>>It's too tall, too expensive, and you need too bloody many of them to move
>>a company of infantry.
>
>Yep, height is about the only thing a BMP has over a Bradley. Obtained
>at the cost of a chronic MANPRINT failure in the rear of the vehicle
>(have you ever *seen* a BMP up close) and a worthless turret. Oh, did I
>point out the piss-poor fuel tank location too?

Profile is, in my opinion, the single most important thing you can have in
a modern battlefield.

>Bridges, either existing or manufactured. The only time it's worth
>swimming a vehicle is when it's assaulting from the sea. And even then,
>it's not that bright. Ask a US Marine how much they like riding in the
>LVTP-7.

Cool. So if we can zero the artillery on the bridge, we can keep the
Yankees on their side of the river.

>>Y'know, the Russians found out a neat fact about IFVs in Afghanistan. NCOs
>>tend to stay in 'their tank' and their troops tend to cluster near it,
>>becasue it is big, armoured and has the squad's support weapons.
>
>Bad use of their kit by the Russians does not make US kit poor.

In my opinion, this tendency brings into question the whole point of IFVs.
If they are too vulnerable to fight in, and too expensive to leave in
reserve, what do you do with them ?

>Of course, a M-113 would be lagging way behind the tanks (if the tanks
>are using their superior speed), or dragging the speed of operations
>(and thus the operational and tactical mobility) down with it.

The most optimistic advance rates of a modern army against opposition are
tens of kilometers per day.

>And what if you're caught in a M-113? At least you have some chance in a
>M2. In an M-113, the enemy rounds are coming through the sides and you
>have *one* M-2 MG to return fire with - if anyone can poke their head
>out the hatch. 
>

You die with the knowledge that a you died in a hundred thousand dollar
coffin, not a two million dollar coffin.

Hopefully, this cost savings resulted in someone else being adequately
equipped and had enough in the field training to do their job, rather than
have an army which compromised these things to afford a bunch of M2s.

>>If you want a tank, buy a tank. If you want a ATGW platform, get a M113 and
>>put TOW on it. If you want something to carry infantry and protect them
>>from artillery splinters on the way there, buy an APC.
>>
>>Dont try to do it all in one platform.
>
>if you need them all, and you can't afford one of each - get the best
>compromise.

I bet you can buy two M113s and two M113s with TOW for the cost of one M2.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 03:11:23 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

At 03:47 pm 2/18/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>If you want a tank, buy a tank. If you want a ATGW platform, get a
M113 and
>>put TOW on it. If you want something to carry infantry and protect
them
>>from artillery splinters on the way there, buy an APC.
>>
>>Dont try to do it all in one platform.
>
>if you need them all, and you can't afford one of each - get the
best
>compromise.

	Actually, that's EXACTLY the biggest complaint about the Bradley.
There's a difference between a "personnel carrier" and a "fighting
vehicle." Unfortunately, someone who doesn't understand the
difference and is only used to PCs will of course consider a FV to be
poorly designed. 

	To make things worse, BOTH factions had a hand in designing the
Bradley. Both kept arguing back & forth and changing the
requirements, meddling with the design, etc. 

	In Traveller terms, think of it this way: a PC is a battle rider
carrier: it takes the fighting craft to the area, and then stays out
of the way. A FV is a carrier which is intended to support the battle
riders. But if you've got both types of admirals involved in the
design, you'll wind up with one that can't carry enough riders to
stand up against a regular carrier's task force, and it's not well
armed/armored to hold its own ...

	IIRC, "60 Minutes" did a piece about this.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:00:28 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> >At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Where on earth did you get the above figure?

The 70kg mass for the average human is given in the MT Wet Navy design
sequences I am quoting from.  Obviously our manly men bodybuilders would
mass more than this on average but the design sequence I was using gave
this as the standard.

The T4 CSC design sequence Kenji was using seemed to refer to total m^3
of people & did not seem to be including space for them to work in.

I used the approximate simplifying assumption that people are about the
same density as water (usually somewhat less of course).  Therefore 1m^3
of people would be 1000 kg of people 1,000/70 = approximately 14.286.

> > 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.
> 
> Au Contraire. I don't think that figure is all that far out of line.
> Consider that the heat output of a person in an office or theater is
> around 100 watts (standard engineering "rule of thumb" for figuring
> heat load on HVAC systems). 

Heat output is not usefull output of course.

> Also note that *rowing* is an ineffecient method of coupling human
> strength to a drive train. Properly designed *pedals* work much better.

Noted but the design sequenceces in question did not make that
distinction.

> Ah! I just remembered the applicable formula. W=Fd. 
> 
> So, lets see. 200 kilos of "push" = 2000 newtons. Thru a 1/2 meter
> "stroke". That's 1 kJoule per stroke. At one stroke per second, that's
> one *kilowatt*.  
> Let's drop it to a "mere" 100 kilos. That's 500 watts. Still more than
> the 350 you don't believe in, and well within the capacity of anybody
> who can pedal a bike uphill at one stroke per second. 

That seems mathematically right to me & I defer to your superior
scientific knowledge but it seems high.  

My favorite reference book [The Addison Wesley Science Handbook Ed
Cloeman & Dewar, Addsion Wesley, ISBN 0-201-76652-3 (c) 1997 $18.00 US -
shameless plug] says that 1 kilowatt hour equals 3,412 BTU / 3.6 x 10^13
ergs / 85,294,000 foot pounds / 1.341  (nonmetric) horsepower hour /
3,600,00 joules / 860 kilocalories(food calories) / 367,099 kg force
meters  

Can a human being really generate a sustained 0.5 kilowatt?  That would
be equal to 42 million foot pounds or 0.65 horsepower.  What do the real
world data indicate?

I knew that the 35 watts/hour base that the MT Wet Navy design sequence
gave was low but is it really that low?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:52:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Solar Flares

bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>>> As most Traveller ships seem to be built more like space capable 
>>>tanks than normal spaceship (even merchants got armour 60 in Striker for 
>>>>example) I think canon Trav ships are more or less immune to flares.
>
>>Won't work. The problem with high energy protons is that "heavy"
>>barriers (metallic hulls, superdense, etc) actually make things *worse*
>>unless they are a couple of *meters* thick. 
>
>However, it's canon that Traveller starships exist and that crews don't die
>every time they jump into a system that happens to be having a flare. 
>There must exist some semi-magical TL-10 or so radiation shielding material;
>it's a technological necessity.

According to Traveller's Digest # 16 TL 14 bonded superdense is 100x
better than concrete or rock, 33x better than steel, and 7x better than
lead at radiation protection (33 cm of steel stop as much radiation as 1
cm of bonded superdense). 

The figure for ordinary TL 12 superdense is 43x better than concrete or 
rock, 14x better than steel, and 3x better than lead.

Basically, a TL 14 ship with a 1 cm thick hull (not an unreasonable
figure) has the same protection protection from radiation as one with a
hull made from 1 meter of solid rock.  That's a goodly amount of radiation
protection in my book. 

According to the same article vacc suits do not usefully protect against
radiation even TL 14 vacc suits only reduce the exposure by a factor of
0.7.  However TL 12 combat armor or battle dress halves radiation exposure
and the TL 14 equivalents reduce exposure by a factor of 10.  Basically,
those are the things to wear if you are going outside during a flare. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:57:53 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

> <snip> What I want are highly-optimised designs <snip>
> By "highly-optimised" I mean that the designs take advantage of the
> complete design rules and be extremely difficult to improve. <snip> 

I agree that a ships physical capabilities should be closely matched to 
the games reality (i.e. the design, economics & combat rules). This is 
usually not the case, and indeed many ships don't even comply with their 
own games design rules.

However on the operational & manning side...

Pauses for a moment, takes lid of old can of worms...

Would you be happy to see totally automated ships requiring only a 
handful, one or zero crew? 

This depends on where you stand on the automation level allowed in 
traveller ships, and which Gurps automation rules you want to 
incorporate. Automation equals optimization equals increased 
price/performance (usually). The software and robots cost more, but you 
don't waste all that space and money on "optional extras" like 
staterooms, life-support, sickbays and provisions. So you end up with 
more compact ships, and less wages and operating costs to pay. 

In G:T you can use gunner programs to replace living gunners.
I already use this in my designs to :
- - eliminate the need for living gunners from commercial ships and 
non-combat military ships
- - provide 24 hour gunner backup to military combat ships

Commercially this is justified by reduced crew and crew overheads and 
reduced insurance premiums (i.e. a software gunner satisfies your 
insurance stipulated minimum rated gunner requirements).

If you use Gurps Ultra Tech/Robots/Space computer rules, even with the 
G:T proposed limitations, you could probably replace most of the crew 
with software and/or robots. It is cost and space effective. They are 
also technologically likely / inevitable.

Why would the military have any qualms about total automation? and the 
commercial case is just as strong.



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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #165
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, February 19 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 166



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Deckplan Orientation
Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: Starships
Re: Those who support delusions
MonCon '99
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Starship turrets
Re: Bad Equipment
Re: Starships
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Scandinavian languages
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Starship laser rendering
Re: Empress Marava / Prince Teriadeven 
TML FAQ Notice
Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate
Re: Deckplan Orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:27:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Deckplan Orientation

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, deck orientation has *no effect* on the ship configuration; you can
make any shape with either parallel or perpendicular decks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Richard, you repeat this again and again throughout your post. Why 
don't you try and make some deckplans before you repeat it again?
I'd really like to see your 100tn scout/courier with a needle/wedge
configuration and decks perpendicular to thrust. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:47:01 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Robots (was re: Starships)

John Buston wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you use Gurps Ultra Tech/Robots/Space computer rules, even with the 
G:T proposed limitations, you could probably replace most of the crew 
with software and/or robots. It is cost and space effective. They are 
also technologically likely / inevitable.

Why would the military have any qualms about total automation? and the 
commercial case is just as strong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my Classic Traveller campaign, robots and expert-system computers
existed, but were deliberately limited by social and legal factors. It was
specifically illegal in my Imperium to place lethal force in the hands of a
robot. Furthermore, it was illegal to have robots that exceeded a certain
level of autonomy. You could have a robot fly a grav truck, but it would
have to have a human pilot who could take over operations on board.

Part of this was mistrust of robots (caused by some highly-publicized
incidents with early self-motivated robots), part was the labor force's fear
of replacement, part was the anti-Zhodani propaganda (insert vids of
soulless Zho killer warbots performing atrocities here).

This was a design decision on my part, as I didn't want my Traveller
campaign to be too Star Wars-ish...I already had starport cantinas full of
oddball aliens, I didn't want friendly droids around every corner as well.

Robots were used in factories and other highly-controlled environments
(such as the robots at Research Station Gamma, and yes the Imperium
could use lethal force robots at a secret installation), and might be seen
as stationary or semi-mobile expert systems (the Trader and Broker
robots mentioned in Merchant Prince), but you wouldn't see them in 
most occupations - it would be strange on most worlds to bump into
a robot on the street.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:04:51 +0000
From: "E.D.Quibell" <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starships

> Why would the military have any qualms about total automation? and the
> commercial case is just as strong.

<sarcasum> What, and let Microsoft program it ? year right </sarcasum>

Would you trust a killing machine you lose contact with when it enters jump ?
I wouldn't, but then again that's probably just me.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:09:44 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

At 06:12 PM 2/18/99 PST, you wrote:
>>What was 'General' about the attack?  Were there other episodes?  
>>Did other shows advance this stereo type?
>>Charles L.
>
>I am not sure what she meant about a 'General' attack.  You should ask 
>her [Julie Garth].  You can respond to her at 
>http://townhall.webrpg.com/ and just follow the links under roleplaying 
>games | science fiction | science fiction games (general).  Her post was 
>titled: <IMPORTANT> All RPG PLAYERS   Julie Garth   01/27/1999 10:47
>
>Were there other episodes?  I don't know.  Ask her; I don't watch the 
>show.
>Did other shows advance this stereo type?  There were a few shows and 
>movies that put forth a very negative view of role-playing games.  The 
>only one I can recall off hand is Monsters & Mazes.  In that movie Tom 
>Hanks (I think) played a character that was into role-playing and ended 
>up losing touch with reality because of the game.  The movie ended, as 
>far as I can remember, with him playing with his friends one last time 
>while he was at the funny farm.
>

I've watched that movie a time or two.  At first I thiught it was a shot at
RPGs also but after watching I began to have my doughts.  The main character
had some serious problems that were not game related.  He excaped into the
game to get away from his problem and also to try to 'solve' them.  If
memory serves he was searching for 'the Great Hall' which I think was his
dead older brother.  It was the death of 'the Great Hall' that drove him
over the edge.

At the end he was not in an asilem but at his home.  He thought it was an
Inn and that he payed for his lodging with a magic coin that somehow
reapeared on his night stand every morning.  His mother put it there and was
the 'kindly inn keeper'.  That he did not recognizer her as his mother
bothered her greatly.  The group 'played the game' one last time before
going on with their real lives.  Only the main character could 'see it'
though and they did it as a good bye.  It was strongly implied that he
stayed in his own 'reality' for the rest of his life.  The narrarater,
another player in the group, was not to sure if that was a good thing or a
bad one.

This is of course as best as I can recall.  (It's been 10 years sence I last
saw the movie.)  While 'the game' was an important piece of the movie it was
the main charater's own real life that was to terible for him to face.  I do
not recall exactly what about it was so bad.  His 'lifes story' was 'hidden'
in the adventure/quest he had written for the game and was very allagorical.
His friends had to 'play the game' to unravel his 'quest' which ended up
being a quest for his dead brother that could only be 'solved' by the death
of the main character.  They saved him at the last minute (of course) but
when he woke up he was lost to the real world that was to much for him to
deal with.  In 'his world' he was safe form the pain of his life.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:13:16 -0500
From: Tal Meta <talmeta@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: MonCon '99

Greetings! 

I'd like to announce that pre-registration booklets are now available
for MonCon99, to be held at the Holiday Inn in Tinton Falls, NJ, on
March 19th-21st. This year we're proud to announce our widest selection
of RPGs, Miniature Battles, Board & Card Games, and LARPs ever!  

Interested parties are welcome to visit our official website at 

http://www.gameconvention.com/MonCon/ 

You can view our event lists, download our online pre-registration book,
request a pre-registration book be mailed to you, access information on
hotel accommodations, directions to the hotel from nearby metropolitan
areas, and information on how you can earn free attendance at the
convention by volunteering your time to help with our security and/or
courtesy department. 

Thanks for your interest, and we look forward to seeing you there! 

- -- 
talmeta@bellatlantic.net - Heretic & Dilettante
ICQ - 12594453
AIM - talmeta1
Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:33:54 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

>I've watched that movie a time or two.  At first I thiught it was a shot at
>RPGs also but after watching I began to have my doughts.  The main
character


Yes, the movie Mazes & Monsters takes some real shots at roleplaying games
in general (and more specifically a poorly disguised Dungeons & Dragons). It
brings in subtle "cult" ties, in one scene where the games is actually
played, there's a certain amount of monotone group chanting for example.

>had some serious problems that were not game related.  He excaped into the
>game to get away from his problem and also to try to 'solve' them.  If
>memory serves he was searching for 'the Great Hall' which I think was his
>dead older brother.  It was the death of 'the Great Hall' that drove him
>over the edge.


The end consensus among all characters was that playing the game was not
healthy. In the book the movie was based on, this is far more apparent. Rona
Jaffe, the author, tells the story "impartially," and at the end gives us a
sort of pat twist: She was one of the players of the game. There's much
railing at the game by all participants, and they all come to the conclusion
that love and friendship are more important than the game.

Mazes & Monsters (the game in the movie) was also portrayed something like a
"drug." All of the characters had some problem in their lives that caused
them to *turn to* the game in the first place.

The movie was a highly fictionalized account of Dallas Eggbert III's real
life story, which actually had nothing to do with D&D other than the fact
that he played it and the game was relatively new when he initially
disappeared. If you do a search for the guy's story on the web, you'll find
it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:02:48 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship turrets

In a message dated 2/18/99 9:21:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rogerbarr@hotmail.com writes:

<< The x-boat tender was the first pop-up turret I saw in Traveller. In 
 Traders and Gunboats.
  >>

Adventure #6 Adventure to Zhodane had a pop up turret in the asteroid ship
"Rock", but it was purely for stealth purposes....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:06:36 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bad Equipment

In a message dated 2/19/99 12:25:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianw@orac.net.au
writes:

<< 
 I bet you can buy two M113s and two M113s with TOW for the cost of one M2. >>

Whats the height of a M113 with a TOW cherrypicker, compared to a M2/3 when it
fires a TOW?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:10:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starships

In a message dated 2/19/99 5:06:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
john_buston@hotmail.com writes:

<< Why would the military have any qualms about total automation? and the 
 commercial case is just as strong.
  >>

the same two reasons that the US Navy sub branch insists on 100+ man crews
when they could get buy with much smaller ones: 1) tradition and 2) DAMAGE
CONTROL. You need bodies to repair and shore up things...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:27:26 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

"Dent?  Aurthur Phillip  Dent?  You're a...  Oh, I've already done you..."

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 17 February 1999 03:47 PM
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...


>I've already been granted permission to speak.  Who do you know who asks,
>"Excuse me, but may I please insult you?"  Hmm, that's kinda funny.  I
think
>I'll use that.
>
>--Clif
>
>>I thought there was a saying like: It is easier to ask for forgiveness
>>than for permission.
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:46:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

Richard Hough wrote:

> 
> This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
> are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
> et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
> earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
> crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
> same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
> utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
> engineering statics book.
> 

You might want to look at that engineering book again,
Richard...Skyscrapers have an enormously significant difference from a
tall starship standing on the ground: foundations, sometimes hundreds of
feet deep. THAT is what anchors a skyscraper, and would make for some
really unwieldy landing gear on a starship.

Simple example: stand an 8 foot 4x4 on the ground, end up. This is a
starship. Next to it, stick a 10 foot 4x4 into a 2 ft deep posthole,
packed in with dirt. This is a skyscraper. Both are equal heights above
the ground. Push on both.

Which one falls over?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:51:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: My Aqua Safari Ship and Book 2 Type T Patrol Cruiser

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> Performance wasn't as good as propellers. On the other hand, it made
> *no* noises. Just the thing for lurking around trying to spot enemy
> subs before they spotted you.
> 
> I'm sure that scaling it up was impractical. And is probably *still*
> impractical. But I can think of a few possible techonologies that might
> allow a full size one. It'd require some *weird* materials though. Some
> sort of metal that could change shape on command. Which is also darn
> near what you'd need to have *reliable* "iris" doors. So maybe at later
> Imperial tech levels?

Oh why did the X-Files theme just start playing in my head...? 

Sort of like the metal from the alleged Roswell crash? Wonder how many
mini-subs we have skulking about on this principle. You can hide an
_awful_ lot of goodies in a defense budget, for, saaaay a new class of
submarine...especially when the budget goes into overruns...:-)

OF COURSE they weren't buying $500 hammers and $2000 toilet seats...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:57:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Oh, great...NOW we get treated to interoffice chatter, too ! ;-P

Guys, guys, guys...using e-mail to communicate between cubes is one of
the Seven Deadly Signs of Geekiness!!

Tascelt@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hey!!  That's how you tried to teach me to shoot you B****RD!!!  Jes, hows the
> GURPs thing going or are you not allowed to say.
> 
> Todd

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:04:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scandinavian languages

Victor J. Raymond wrote:

> Victor "But there's no snow in Minnesota this year and we're all rather
> weirded out by it" Raymond

No WONDER they elected Jesse....;-P

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:19:52 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

Heh heh.  If only Vision Forge Graphics was big enough to HAVE cubes!!!
Maybe someday after we take over ILM :)  Actually, I'm in San Jose and
Todd's in Stockton.  We never could seem to end up in the same town for any
length of time!

Jesse




>Oh, great...NOW we get treated to interoffice chatter, too ! ;-P
>
>Guys, guys, guys...using e-mail to communicate between cubes is one of
>the Seven Deadly Signs of Geekiness!!
>
>Tascelt@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Hey!!  That's how you tried to teach me to shoot you B****RD!!!  Jes,
hows the
>> GURPs thing going or are you not allowed to say.
>>
>> Todd
>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:18:42 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship laser rendering

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 

> Okay, I give ... what are the multiple "flower seeds" inside the array? I
> thought that a TNE laser needed to be one big 'o lens (or a "honeycomb" of
> lenses).

weall, ummm, errr, Uhhh..Nurnies, yep, that's what, they're Nurnies. 

(for those not into SFX jargon, nurnies are the little details stuck all
over, for instance, the surface of the death star model to make it look
like something real, but themselves aren't anything but a bunch of techy
looking nonsense bits.)

On reflection....

What I was thinking, since Traveller starship lasers are X-ray, they
wouldn't necessarily use lenses, but solid state emitters (big honking
diode lasers) and those are what the little things inside the hexagons
are. The honeycomb is the support for the gravitic projectors that shape
and aim the beam, which is actually an array of phase-aligned beams. The
big disk keeps dust off of the laser when it's inside the
starship...Yeah, that's the ticket!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:14:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Empress Marava / Prince Teriadeven 

At 08:28 PM 2/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
>As many of you know, the Empress Marava deckplans in Classic Traveller
>Supplement 7 (Traders and Gunboats) are WAY oversized... coming in at
>roughly 400 tons instead of 200 tons.  In an effort to make plans that match
>the Empress Marava's image that ARE *200* tons I created plans for the
>Prince Teriadeven Class Far Trader.

nicely done!

One question, it looks as if the flight deack has a control panel area
reaching about 3m away from the two chairs.  Might I recommend slimming
down the panel, and maybe adding a third panel/chair?
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:55:23 -0000
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ Notice

Hi All,

Here's the contents list of the current TML FAQ. As always, comments and
suggestions welcome.

Changes this time round include:

* Ran a spell-checker :)
* Addition of ct-starships mailing list information
* Additional glossary entries
* Attempts to flesh out some of the 'done to death' subjects
* Additional questions and answers

Would those who were around at the time please take a look at the 'done to
death' subjects and see if my attempts to describe the various viewpoints
are OK. If not, please take it up with me by email, *not* on the list.

Can I also request that those of you still linking to James Dempsey's site
update your pages to reflect the FAQ's new home.

The TML FAQ can be obtained from:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

or by email from:

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-html

for the HTML version

or

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-text

for the text version.

Hopefully those kind people at MPGN will shortly be making the FAQ available
via the MPGN ftp server.

Thanks.

Stuart.


- -= Traveller Mailing List Frequently Asked Questions  =-

Contents

Revision History (revisions.html)
  1. What is Traveller?
  2. All About The Traveller Mailing Lists
      1. How Do I Subscribe?
      2. How Do I Unsubscribe?
      3. How Do I use the List Processor?
      4. How Do I Post a message to the list?

  3. What are the etiquette rules for the lists?
  4. What subjects have been 'Done To Death' already on the TML
      1. Effects of rocks on Planets
      2. Was this Virus thing such a good idea?
      3. SDBs and the Defence of Gas Giants
      4. What is a Feudal Technocracy?
      5. Jump Torpedoes - Canon or Otherwise?
      6. What is the official maximum Tech Level for the Rule Of Man?
      7. Is piracy economically feasible in the Third Imperium?
      8. What is the role (if any) of fighters in Traveller space combat?
      9. Crew Structure on TNE Starships (Command-Crew.html)

  5. What is the answer to...?
      1. What's that acronym or nickname mean?
      2. How should starship miniatures be painted?
      3. Is there a list of all star systems in the Imperium?
      4. What are the effects of spacing?
      5. How do Jumps less than 1 parsec work?
      6. How do I search for Traveller sites?
      7. How do I obtain BITS Traveller material?
      8. What's that strange code I see at the bottom of TML postings?
      9. How do I find the formula for...?
      10. What is the Empress Wave?
      11. How canonical is DGP material?
      12. Whatever happened to DGP?

  6. What erratas are available?
  7. What internet resources are there for Traveller? (Resources.html)
  8. What Traveller related software is there? (Software.html)
  9. What did other people think of product X? (reviews.html)
  10. What products were produced for TNE? (Products.html)
  11. What products were produced for CT? (Products-CT.html)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:46:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate

- ---Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:

> The Debate:
> 
> OK, the stage is set.  At some point in the not-to-distant
> future, Dulinor will be posting some opening comments (although
> not under that name, and nobody *knows* that it's him).  I'd like
> to see others from this list participate - in persona as a
> citizen of the Imperium - in the debate.  If we can build up
> enough of an interesting debate, I will do my best to get decent
> code written so that Freelance Traveller can have a "Speaker's
> Corner" where further in-persona debates can occur.  For that to
> happen, however, requires _interest_ in the concept, and active
> participation in this trial balloon.
> 
> Comments on the idea, before His Grace starts writing?

I think it sounds interesting.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:56:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

Ah, I see that I've opened up an old debate.  I thought I remembered
discussion on this a while back, but I don't remember it being a flamewar.
Mind you, I tend to skip messages with too many !!!s and CAPS. :-)

First, let me say thanks to those who replied, especially he who sent in
the summary of the arguments.  (Sorry, I'm too lazy to go back and check).

Now I'm going to make some of my own arguments/counterarguments and I'd
like your reactions. Keep your hats on people, it's only a game! (and if
it was completely realistic, it would be boring as all hell!)

<Richard>
Your summary of the arguments are accurate. However, you don't mention
that the arguments in favor of parallel decks are fallacious. 
</Richard>

Ah, I love the tact on this list! :-)  "There are of course two sides to
this argument, but one of them is dumb."

<Richard>
>FOR PARALLEL DECKS:
>
>1.  More efficient dirtside cargo handling.  Parallel deck designs can
>have more of the cargo area closer to the ground than most perpendicular
>deck designs.

You can design your cargo area as close to the ground as you want with any
deck orientation. Any configuration can be designed with and deck
orientation; parallel deck designs have no advantage and perpendicular
decks have no disadvantage.
</Richard>

I'm not sure I understand this.  If you've got a needle with perpendicular
decks, how do you get lots of deckspace close to the ground?  By putting
the thrust perpendicular to the long axis?  Hmm, I suppose this is
possible, but it just seems a little odd to me.  You'd have a hard time
presenting minimum aspect to an enemy like this, which I thought was the
major advantage of a needle design.

<Richard>
Perpendicular deck ships can use any configuration including needle/wedge;
the design rules are the same for any deck orientation. A needle/wedge
configuration can be designed with perpendicular decks along the long axis
if required.
</Richard>

Ah, so you are talking about thrust perp to the long axis.  I've always
thought the resistance of needles to meson gun fire involved their ability
to present minimum aspect to the enemy.  If the needle has to go sidelong
when approaching or retreating, this is hard to do.

<Richard>
This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
engineering statics book.
</Richard>

Hmm, okay, I'm going to try to be very diplomatic here, as I don't want to
re-ignite any passions (I can't believe I'm walking on eggshells regarding
fictional starships in the 57th century!  You'd expect this on the MEPML
(Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically).  But given
the existence of grav drives and high-power computers, I don't see this as
a problem. Is that basically your position?  Or are you arguing that it's
not more difficult to engineer a stable tall structure than a stable short
one?

<Richard>
It is not true that "long and narrow" configurations favor parallel deck
design; the design rules are the same in either case.
</Richard>

They do if you need single large rooms for any reason, or if you want to
minimize the need for up/down movement to get from place to place on a
ship, which is good ergonomics.  That is, unless you're talking about
putting thrust perp to the long axis... 

<Richard>
[snipped argument about coolness and aesthetics for yachts]
Again, deck orientation has *no effect* on the ship configuration; you can
make any shape with either parallel or perpendicular decks.
</Richard>

True, but a needle with the thrust going perp to the long axis is just not
as cool, so I'd agree with this argument for ship designs with aesthetic
considerations.

As for the arguments about safety and maneuvering without anti-grav, this
only becomes a consideration if anti-grav is unreliable.  Those wishing
for parallel decks ITTU can simply make anti-grav reliable and
highly-efficient (i.e., requiring negligible power).  In any case, it
should be a simple matter to have a cut-off of thruster power in the case
of loss of gravity control (this would be necessary even if the decks were
perp to thrust, since attitude maneuvers would still throw the crew around
when the wall compensators failed). 

The argument that perp decks allow faster accel only comes in if you
assume the limit to accel of a ship is based on inertial compensation
limits.  It may just as easily be from limits on the drives themselves. 
In fact, this seems more likely to me, since even if ships could only have
6g of inertial compensation, they should be able to go up to much higher
accelerations (assuming the crew can handle a few g, which should be the
case for fighter pilots at the very least).  

One thing that I think needs to be considered is the probability of the
gravitic system failing and the times at which this would happen.  First,
I see the system as a highly distributed thing which I doubt would fail to
any large extent unless the ship was being torn to bits.  Isolated grav
plates might fail, making certain areas dangerous, but the whole system
failing and requiring people to "walk on walls" seems unlikely to happen
before the drives are toast anyway. The most likely scenario I could see
would have this occurring during combat, at which point everyone's in acc
couches anyway.  If they're in a ship with parallel decks, this actually
puts them in a good position to take the forces, as their backs will be
towards the thrusters.

In a civilian ship, a sudden overall failure would happen very rarely, and
would simply require the drives to be cut until the problem was fixed.  Of
course, there are hazzards from suddenly cutting the drives, but I think
this would happen rarely enough that people wouldn't worry about it.

Like I said, keep your hats on.  I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong by
good arguments, not rants...

Thanks,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #166
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 20 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 167



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial What If
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Starships
Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate
Re: Imperial What If
Re: Imperial What If
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Re: Imperial What If/In-Persona Debate
FTL Travel Now A Reality (kind of)
Re: Deckplans
Re: Deckplans
How to "unstuff" older TML Archives
Traveller Sale is Closed!
Re: Imperial What If
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Deckplans
Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives
Re: Starships
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Deckplan Orientation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:59:21 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

In a message dated 2/18/99 11:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:

<< 
 I was under the impression that he wanted to end the "hands off" and Imperium
 is "the space between planets" philosophies, and I think that this is a good
 thing...
  >>

	You power-hungry, nosy, interfering busybody!

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:10:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Also note that *rowing* is an ineffecient method of coupling human
> strength to a drive train. Properly designed *pedals* work much better.
> You get to use the much stronger leg muscles. And if you are trying for
> maximized output, you can do as a few human powered land vehicles have
> done and have the hands "pedalling" as well.

Noted; however, this is a special-purpose vessel for which, in my
interpretation of the RFD, requires the use of rower-type human power
generation.

> Luckily, since it's electrical power that's needed, not direct
> mechanical power, you can use some intermediary such that the
> individuals can exert maximum effort *without* needing to be
> synchronized.

Again, I believe this would render the craft considerably less than
desireable to the end-users.  Perhaps an optimized, combat-capable version
(e.g., the Manly Man Merc Cruiser, aka The Happy Fun Pec) would
take advantage of this fact.

> Let's drop it to a "mere" 100 kilos. That's 500 watts. Still more than
> the 350 you don't believe in, and well within the capacity of anybody
> who can pedal a bike uphill at one stroke per second. 

Okay -- thanks for the technical information on this.  In the redesign, I
think I'll make the manly man power output something like 400 watts as a
compromise between rowing and maximal efficiency.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:20:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Peter Newman wrote:

> I understand, that is pretty much the same reason I designed an FFS1 man
> portable Meson gun. :)

... has this been made available for public enjoyment?  If not, I'd love a
copy of the basic info, by private email if you think it would be
inappropriate for general audiences.

[snip demographics]
> been Str C End C at age 18.  If (arbitrarily) 1 in 500 of these men work
> up to Str F & End F then we will have 9,002 very many men.  Now we have
> to teach them all Small Watercraft 5.

Okay, enough to crew about three of the new, redesigned Manly Man Powered
Duelling Fighter.  Not bad!

> If your model for M:0 Cleon owes a bit two much to Ludwig of Bavaria &
> you substitute [fascination for crew rowers] for [fascination with tall
> cavalrymen] you may be able to envision these men being gathered up.  It
> does not seem all that likely to me although the notion of Cleon being
> as mad as Ludwig is amusing.

Considering that his son (IIRC), Cleon the Mad, lived up to the name, I
think a reasonable case can be made for Cleon I to have had some slight
socially-acceptable-rationality deficit.
 
> How about if you changed the power for the gun from thee manly men
> directly to a battery.  The manly men then power up & recharge the
> capacitors through their rowing.  Thus you can ignore all that minimum
> ROF rot because if your power supply (manly men) has not recharged your
> batteries then you can't fire the weapon.

Your crass materialistic bourgeois predilections for soulless
efficiency betray you.  The esteemed customer -- and any gentleman of
taste and breeding, one might add -- would certainly not find this
solution optimal.

[Note: The fact that SayBOOM can safely be presumed to have as its
ultimate goal the full enablement of the transcendence of the Imperial
aristocratic-bourgeoise society and its manifestation as a corporate
police state, is merely coincidental, and is certainly not reflected in
the design of this vessel.]
 
> I have just suggested using soulburners in Traveller, sometimes I think
> that GURPS may be too universal....

We have soulburner engines in Traveller; c.f. relativistic rocks, piracy,
ROM TL, etc.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:27:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >> Alternately, you could equip the rowing stations with dispensers for
> >> performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals, and get to work gene-splicing a
> >> crew...
> >
> >I believe the former would be the Famille Spofulam philosophy, while the
> >latter would be that of SayBOOM.
> 
>   In other words, FS are chronically short-sighted?

Yes.  

If not locked into these particular design parameters, FS would power the
vessel by a teacup black hole collider, staffed by its cranked-up juvenile
family members.  SayBOOM would power it with batteries and staff it with
telepathic slugs and high school students working for extra credit.  And
hoping to score off the FS kids while they're out there.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:41:34 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Starships

E.D.Quibell wrote:
> 
> > Why would the military have any qualms about total automation? and the
> > commercial case is just as strong.
> 
> <sarcasum> What, and let Microsoft program it ? year right </sarcasum>
> 
> Would you trust a killing machine you lose contact with when it enters jump ?
> I wouldn't, but then again that's probably just me.
> 
In addition:

While higher and higher levels of automation can decrease operating
costs (once the technology for a given level of automation is matured
past bleeding-edge), this really only applies to routine operations.  In
combat, when things break, live humans would still, IMHO, have the edge
in repairing them under battle conditions (and in devising improvised
work-arounds if repair is impossible).  Automated systems tend to work
best when specialized to the task at hand.  Humans, OTOH, are anything
_but_ specialized.  An astrogator can more easily be trained to repel
boarding parties than a navcomp.

> Ewan
> --
> 
>    Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
>    Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
>    Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
>    University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
>                                       Rode the six hundred.
>    E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson
> 
>    #include<stddisclaimer.h>
> 
>    My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:49:29 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial What If: Idea for In-Persona Debate

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:05:47 -0500, Black ICE
<wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
 
<<snip>>
 
>> Comments on the idea, before His Grace starts writing?

>Tres *&#%ing COOL idea!

>Ahem.  I mean, I would be pleased and honored to participate.

>BTW, this idea reminds me of how Peter Wiggin laid the groundwork for
>his Hegemony over mankind in _Ender's Game_....

Hmmm...  Interesting thought.  And not inaccurate, at that.  I
wonder if this was also in the back of my mind when I came up
with the idea?

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:55:53 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:05:47 -0500, StevenA201@aol.com wrote:

>A fun idea, but I've never been clear on exactly what Dulinor wanted?  From
>the MT Rebellion Sourcebook: 

>Dulinor wants [the Imperium] to exert more influence on [planetary]
>governments, charging them with more democratic, responsive policies.

>But that's pretty vague, isn't it?  --S

Yes, but there was other source material that defined his ideas a
little better.  Not a whole lot better; there was plenty of
wiggle room and room for interpretation, but certainly enough for
ideas to get thrown around in debate.  And that could be
considered part of Dulinor's genius; the ideas that are discussed
in the debate can give him an idea of what the people of the
Imperium, in whose name he is putatively advocating, really do
want from their Imperium.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:00:18 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:05:47 -0500, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 2/18/99 6:20:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>StevenA201@aol.com writes:

><< Dulinor wants [the Imperium] to exert more influence on [planetary]
> governments, charging them with more democratic, responsive policies.
>  >>

>I was under the impression that he wanted to end the "hands off" and Imperium
>is "the space between planets" philosophies, and I think that this is a good
>thing...

That could be a way of describing my interpretation of the
available material on Dulinor's views - but rather than
discussing it this way, why not save it for the debate?  Dulinor
(or his alter-ego, or the anonymous name espousing his views, or
Jeff Zeitlin) does not claim the exclusive right to post for that
viewpoint.  The first post will simply be stating _my_
interpretation of his views; and the only reason that I
"attribute" them to Dulinor (anonymously) is because I think
that's the best way to start the debate - but maybe it's not
Dulinor at all, but someone close to him who knows his views?


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:59:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Considering that his son (IIRC), Cleon the Mad, lived up to the name, I
> think a reasonable case can be made for Cleon I to have had some slight
> socially-acceptable-rationality deficit.

Actually, Cleon's son was Cleon II 'the Weak', meaning that he was not
good at palace intrigue.

Cleon the Mad was several generations later and had a tenuous (at best)
genetic link to the original Cleon to go with his tenuous grasp on
reality.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:12:49 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Imperial What If/In-Persona Debate

On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:58:16 -0500, "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I like the idea of the "Imperial what if" debate.  What kind of ideology 
>did Dulinor follow?  What other anonymous imperial 'big wigs' did you 
>have in mind?

Dulinor's ideology is irrelevant to the debate - recall that,
officially, nobody knows whether Dulinor is even participating.
Everyone that participates will do so as an Imperial citizen,
and, beyond that, will decide whether to do so under their real
name, or under a nom-de-plume.  I would expect, if this debate
were "real", that perhaps some of the other notable nobles would
participate, as would respected academics, business leaders, and
so on.  Again, think of the Federalist/AntiFederalist debate.
While the specific ideas involved are different, the purpose is
essentially the same.

(This doesn't mean that an ordinary citizen couldn't participate,
although Joe Blow's views might not get as wide circulation - in
reality, such a debate would spin off many smaller debates, which
is where the Joe Blows would participate.  Participants in _this_
debate should take one of the "high-visibility" positions above -
although there is no need to reveal the specific position.  But,
it might very well become clear over time; you are expected to
write from the point of view of your chosen persona - the
academic should not write as though he were a business leader,
although he may know about business.)

Note that I would recommend using a nom-de-plume, on the basis
that if a well-known person were to participate in the debate
under his/her own name, others might be influenced because of the
person, rather than because of the points made in the essay.
This is, in fact, why participants on both sides used obvious
noms-de-plume in the Federalist/AntiFederalist debates.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:16:17 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: FTL Travel Now A Reality (kind of)

Just saw the following lead-in on NBC's homepage.

"Danish physicist Dr. Lene Vestergaard Hau, who with a
team of collaborators, has found a way to slow light
down to about 38 miles an hour. Dr. Hau and the
physics team, who work at the Rowland Institute for
Science and Harvard University, expect to slow the
speed of light down to 120 feet an hour."

The full story can be found at:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/242698.asp

Just think...most people who drive can
now say they've moved faster than light.
Unfortunately, *I* usually end up behind
the ones who can't. :-P

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:49:59 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

> <snippage of ship errata in G:T Alien Races 1>
>Also; according to the CT Vargr aliens module; the trader should have
>only five staterooms, and five crew; and thus carries NO
>passengers....hmm....

There are lots more than that :(

How about the Shivva Class Patrol Frigate: DR of only 50, 10 staterooms 
in text - yet deckplan shows 18 and most of them are oversize, plus the 
amount of deckplan room allocated for that 24 spaces jump drive is just 
phenomenal. And even if you use the low numbers in the text the design 
doesn't fit in the space available. It is almost bearable with major 
tweaks (e.g. 18 staterooms, DR 250, lower G rating to 1.5, move 15 DT of 
reserve fuel to the fuel skimmer). But I shouldn't have to tweak it.

Unfortunately the same is true for many of the ships published for all 
systems.

I like ships, they add a lot of flavour to the game. I also like them to 
be consistent and well designed.  However, whenever I do a design check 
on a published ship I am usually disappointed.

So I suppose this is another reason to support products with program 
validated designs like 101 Starships from BITS. Now if they could just 
do version 2 with 101 deckplans...

Aside: note that in the Yetsabl Zhodani Courier the single turret has 
two laser mounts and one sandcaster mount - making mixed ordnance 
turrets a valid design.




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:47:24 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

John Buston wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Aside: note that in the Yetsabl Zhodani Courier the single turret has
> two laser mounts and one sandcaster mount - making mixed ordnance
> turrets a valid design.
> 
For small starships, mixed turrets were canon in CT. 

> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:23:26 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives

Greetings All:

While skimming old TML Digests (looking for some adventure ideas), I noticed
that I had never received the following from 1998: issues 151-154 (inclusive).

I downloaded the archive editions of these, but how does one "unstuff" or
"unzip" these archives? The file is called:

tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z

(and I copied the upper and lower cases exactly)

Any ideas among the computer literati?

Thanks!

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(EPTer Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:48:54 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Sale is Closed!

Hi,
	Just wanted to let everyone know, that the collection sale is closed. 
I have sold enough items to repair my car.  Thanks for everyone's
interest.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:43:59 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial What If

In a message dated 2/19/99 2:07:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, AveNelso@aol.com
writes:

<< You power-hungry, nosy, interfering busybody! >>

sound of the "bronx cheer"...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:43:05 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

In a message dated 2/19/99 1:57:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca writes:

<< Like I said, keep your hats on.  I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong by
 good arguments, not rants... >>

I've always preferred perpendicular for warships like the AHL (avoid meson
gunfire and all that...), and parallel for small craft and small to medium
freighters ( I love the through deck design of the fat trader's cargo deck,
and I like Ro-Ro and LASH cargo handling...). I also think that it's clumsy as
hell to load the APC's from the cargo deck of the happy fun ball (I love this
nickname for the mercenary cruiser!). It reminds me of watching TL 8
astronauts getting into the Apollo Command module....Perhaps I'm being too
rigid, but I go with the rule of thumb, that if you are handling cargo in
atmosphere, go parallel, else go perpendicular...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:52:53 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans

In a message dated 2/19/99 4:54:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
john_buston@hotmail.com writes:

<< Aside: note that in the Yetsabl Zhodani Courier the single turret has 
 two laser mounts and one sandcaster mount - making mixed ordnance 
 turrets a valid design.
  >>

That's cool under HG and CT book 2. If a ship has 10 or less hardpoints
(meaning <=1000 displacement tons in practical terms...) she can have mixed
turret weapons. Each weapon type is then a seperate battery (but the rules
never made this clear if it meant that you could have multiple gunners per
turret, or the gunner could only fire one type of weapon per turn..). Don't
know about FFS, FFS2 though....

As for the Shiva, she's a lot more useful, glitches and all than the
trader...:-(.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:53:28 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives

>I downloaded the archive editions of these, but how does one
"unstuff" or
>"unzip" these archives? The file is called:
>
>tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z

Depends what platform you're on.

On Unix you use the command    "tar -xf tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z" or
someting similar

( tar stands for Tape ARchive, it's an old unix utility for compresed
tape back-ups )

On Windows, simplest way is to use WinZip, get it now, you won't
rgeret it.

On Mac, well, I'm afraid I haven't seen one since 1987, they're an
endangered species
reportedly only seen on reservations, so I have no idea.
<grin>

>Fred Kiesche
>(Traveller Since 1977)
>(EPTer Since 1977)
>(Father Since 1998)

Hah,  equal on the Traveller , beat ya on the other two counts !

Frankie
(EPTer Since 1975)
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1982)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 02:17:12 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

>> Why would the military have any qualms about total automation?
>> and the commercial case is just as strong.

> the same two reasons that the US Navy sub branch insists on 100+ 
> man crews when they could get buy with much smaller ones:
> 1) tradition and 2) DAMAGE CONTROL.
> You need bodies to repair and shore up things...

So use robot bodies. They don't require any provisions except power. 
They don't need any quarters. They don't need oxygen.

How much of that damage control is to keep the ship capable of 
supporting living beings?

Would non-breathing robots be better at damage control in a damaged 
spaceship?

If you keep your ship in vacuum or inert gas atmosphere, where possible, 
you don't worry about fires too much.

Would you rather have one robot at peak efficiency 99% of the time, or 
one living crew member at peak efficiency 33% of the time?

Another poster:
>Would you trust a killing machine you lose contact with when it enters 
jump ?
>I wouldn't, but then again that's probably just me.

You mean like launching a cruise missile and trusting it not to kill 
you. You already do!

Would you rather them be in the hands of your average PC?

I wouldn't want to let them be totally crewless either. But you can do 
them with a lot less crew than at present.

Another poster:
>In my Classic Traveller campaign, robots and expert-system computers
>existed, but were deliberately limited by social and legal factors.

I have no problems with anyones TU rationale. If all ships were fully 
automated then would it still be traveller? I am just trying to point 
out consequences of designing for maximum optimisation (the original 
post).


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 03:15:27 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

(a whole lot snipped)

>As for the arguments about safety and maneuvering without anti-grav, this
>only becomes a consideration if anti-grav is unreliable.  Those wishing
>for parallel decks ITTU can simply make anti-grav reliable and
>highly-efficient (i.e., requiring negligible power).

Some years back, I read a post suggesting that the two most fail-safe
systems on a Federation starship are the artificial gravity and the
bridge camera.  If either of those cut out, it's a sure bet that the
entire ship will explode moments later.

- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:24:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

> Richard Hough wrote:
>
>> This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
>> are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
>> et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
>> earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
>> crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
>> same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
>> utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
>> engineering statics book.
>
> You might want to look at that engineering book again,
> Richard...Skyscrapers have an enormously significant difference from a
> tall starship standing on the ground: foundations, sometimes hundreds of
> feet deep. THAT is what anchors a skyscraper, and would make for some
> really unwieldy landing gear on a starship.
>
> Simple example: stand an 8 foot 4x4 on the ground, end up. This is a
> starship. Next to it, stick a 10 foot 4x4 into a 2 ft deep posthole,
> packed in with dirt. This is a skyscraper. Both are equal heights above
> the ground. Push on both.
>
> Which one falls over?

Now try this: 

1. Set up a tall thin box, say something like a refrigerator box. Try
   tipping it over.

2. Next, place some concrete blocks in the bottom. Try tipping it over.

3. Somehow, fasten the concrete blocks inside at the *top*. Try tipping
   it over.

4. Distribute the weight of the blocks equally thru the box. Try
   tipping it over. 

You'll find that #1 tips easily. #4 is harder. #3 almost falls over on
its own. And #2 is hardest.

What matters is *mass distribution*, and *total mass*. 

For example, consider the Washington Monument. Or an Egyptian obelisk.
They both are merely *sitting* on their foundations. They are in no
danger of tipping over. Really!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:32:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

> Ah, I see that I've opened up an old debate.  I thought I remembered
> discussion on this a while back, but I don't remember it being a flamewar.
> Mind you, I tend to skip messages with too many !!!s and CAPS. :-)
>
> First, let me say thanks to those who replied, especially he who sent in
> the summary of the arguments.  (Sorry, I'm too lazy to go back and check).
>
> Now I'm going to make some of my own arguments/counterarguments and I'd
> like your reactions. Keep your hats on people, it's only a game! (and if
> it was completely realistic, it would be boring as all hell!)
>
> <Richard>
> Your summary of the arguments are accurate. However, you don't mention
> that the arguments in favor of parallel decks are fallacious. 
> </Richard>
>
> Ah, I love the tact on this list! :-)  "There are of course two sides to
> this argument, but one of them is dumb."
>
> <Richard>
>>FOR PARALLEL DECKS:
>>
>>1.  More efficient dirtside cargo handling.  Parallel deck designs can
>>have more of the cargo area closer to the ground than most perpendicular
>>deck designs.
>
> You can design your cargo area as close to the ground as you want with any
> deck orientation. Any configuration can be designed with and deck
> orientation; parallel deck designs have no advantage and perpendicular
> decks have no disadvantage.
> </Richard>
>
> I'm not sure I understand this.  If you've got a needle with perpendicular
> decks, how do you get lots of deckspace close to the ground?  By putting
> the thrust perpendicular to the long axis?  Hmm, I suppose this is
> possible, but it just seems a little odd to me.  You'd have a hard time
> presenting minimum aspect to an enemy like this, which I thought was the
> major advantage of a needle design.

You are also *assuming* that the parallel and perpendicular designs
have the same hull shape. 

And unless the enemy is in the direction that you are boosting, the
needle with thrust perpendicular to the long axis will have *no*
trouble presenting the "point" to the enemy. 

> <Richard>
> Perpendicular deck ships can use any configuration including needle/wedge;
> the design rules are the same for any deck orientation. A needle/wedge
> configuration can be designed with perpendicular decks along the long axis
> if required.
> </Richard>
>
> Ah, so you are talking about thrust perp to the long axis.  I've always
> thought the resistance of needles to meson gun fire involved their ability
> to present minimum aspect to the enemy.  If the needle has to go sidelong
> when approaching or retreating, this is hard to do.

Not really. Running *directly* away from an enemy is not always
practical *or* wise. Remember that space is three dimensional. A skew
course can be far more effective than one that stays in the same plane
as far as avoiding engagement is concerned.

> <Richard>
> This is the assertion that set off the flamewar. Tall, narrow structures
> are not necessarily more vulnerable to high winds, tremors, uneven ground,
> et al than any other sort of structure. Skyscrapers have survived
> earthquakes, bombings, hurricanes, soil liquefaction, and airplanes
> crashing into them without toppling while short, squat, structures in the
> same situation have collapsed. I realize there are many people who are
> utterly unable to accept this, to those I can only suggest an introductory
> engineering statics book.
> </Richard>
>
> Hmm, okay, I'm going to try to be very diplomatic here, as I don't want to
> re-ignite any passions (I can't believe I'm walking on eggshells regarding
> fictional starships in the 57th century!  You'd expect this on the MEPML
> (Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
> structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
> of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically). 

The Delta-X toppled *after a major landing gear failure*. The Eifel
tower will fall over if you dynamite one of the legs. 

> But given
> the existence of grav drives and high-power computers, I don't see this as
> a problem. Is that basically your position?  Or are you arguing that it's
> not more difficult to engineer a stable tall structure than a stable short
> one?

Actually, it's *not* hard to make a tall structure stable unless you
are dealing with someing as grotesquely elongated as a radio station's
antenna mast. 

Buildings *don't* fall over.

> The argument that perp decks allow faster accel only comes in if you
> assume the limit to accel of a ship is based on inertial compensation
> limits.  It may just as easily be from limits on the drives themselves. 
> In fact, this seems more likely to me, since even if ships could only have
> 6g of inertial compensation, they should be able to go up to much higher
> accelerations (assuming the crew can handle a few g, which should be the
> case for fighter pilots at the very least).  

Sure, but you *can't* design a ship that's big enough that folks needs
to walk around in it during flight *and* have more than 2gs of accel in
excess of compensation. 

At 2gs you can walk if you are both strong and careful. But it is not
recommended. At anything higher, forget it.

In a fighter the considerations are quite different.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #167
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Traveller-digest     Saturday, February 20 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 168



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subject: Re: Solar Flares
Re: FTL Travel Now A Reality (kind of)
Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Return of SayBOOM
Where is Scott Galliand?
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)
Re: On Handwaving
Re: Starships
Man Portable Meson Guns
Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives 
Re: Man Portable Meson Guns
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Re: Delusions of Grandeur
Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:11:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> According to Traveller's Digest # 16 TL 14 bonded superdense is 100x
> better than concrete or rock, 33x better than steel, and 7x better than
> lead at radiation protection (33 cm of steel stop as much radiation as 1
> cm of bonded superdense). 
>
> The figure for ordinary TL 12 superdense is 43x better than concrete or 
> rock, 14x better than steel, and 3x better than lead.
>
> Basically, a TL 14 ship with a 1 cm thick hull (not an unreasonable
> figure) has the same protection protection from radiation as one with a
> hull made from 1 meter of solid rock.  That's a goodly amount of radiation
> protection in my book. 

What TL does superdense come in at? And what are the figures for it at
various TLs?

> According to the same article vacc suits do not usefully protect against
> radiation even TL 14 vacc suits only reduce the exposure by a factor of
> 0.7.  However TL 12 combat armor or battle dress halves radiation exposure
> and the TL 14 equivalents reduce exposure by a factor of 10.  Basically,
> those are the things to wear if you are going outside during a flare. 

A factor of 10 reduction only helps a little. It'll give you a few
*minutes* of work time in a heavy flare.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:17:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FTL Travel Now A Reality (kind of)

In mail you write:

> Just saw the following lead-in on NBC's homepage.
>
> "Danish physicist Dr. Lene Vestergaard Hau, who with a
> team of collaborators, has found a way to slow light
> down to about 38 miles an hour. Dr. Hau and the
> physics team, who work at the Rowland Institute for
> Science and Harvard University, expect to slow the
> speed of light down to 120 feet an hour."
>
> The full story can be found at:
>
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/242698.asp
>
> Just think...most people who drive can
> now say they've moved faster than light.
> Unfortunately, *I* usually end up behind
> the ones who can't. :-P

Alas, the *true* "FTL" is "faster than the speed of light IN A VACUUM".
That's the one where Einstein gets involved. In media other than
vacuum, light travels more slowly and you *can* exceed the speed of
light in the medium. That's where the pretty blue glow in swimming
pool reactors comes from. Cerenkov radiation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:22:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives

In mail you write:

> Greetings All:
>
> While skimming old TML Digests (looking for some adventure ideas), I noticed
> that I had never received the following from 1998: issues 151-154 
> (inclusive).
>
> I downloaded the archive editions of these, but how does one "unstuff" or
> "unzip" these archives? The file is called:
>
> tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z

First, you use unix's decompress program. That will give you:
	tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar

Then you use tar to extract the individual files. 

gzip (Gnu zip) can also extract stuff from tar.Z files. Change the
.tar.Z to .taz if you are working under DOS.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:06:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 2/18/99 3:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
> << The protons *slam* to a stop in the heavy stuff, and kick up enormous
>  *showers* of secondary particles. So not only are you trading one
>  particle for as many as a dozen, but because the secondary particles
>  are so much slower, they are moving at an ideal velocity to damage
>  tissues. The raw high energy stuff can zip right thru with minimal
>  damage (most of the time). 
>   >>
>
> This sounds like a PAW description to this liberal arts wienie...Why does
> armor stop PAWs (sometimes...:-)) ala HG and MT, but not solar flares?

In essence, a flare is a somewhat diffuse PAW hit. 

What are the rules for protection vs PAW hits?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:09:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Return of SayBOOM

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote
>
>> >At 70 kg each 1 m^3 would be 14.286 manly men, each producing
>>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Where on earth did you get the above figure?
>
> The 70kg mass for the average human is given in the MT Wet Navy design
> sequences I am quoting from.  Obviously our manly men bodybuilders would
> mass more than this on average but the design sequence I was using gave
> this as the standard.
>
> The T4 CSC design sequence Kenji was using seemed to refer to total m^3
> of people & did not seem to be including space for them to work in.
>
> I used the approximate simplifying assumption that people are about the
> same density as water (usually somewhat less of course).  Therefore 1m^3
> of people would be 1000 kg of people 1,000/70 = approximately 14.286.

Which is what I was objecting to. You *cannot* cram 14 people into a 1
meter cube unless you turn them into hamburger. The average person is
around 2m x .5m x .25m. Which gets you about *4* people per cubic meter.

>> > 350 watts, people do not produce that much power.
>> 
>> Au Contraire. I don't think that figure is all that far out of line.
>> Consider that the heat output of a person in an office or theater is
>> around 100 watts (standard engineering "rule of thumb" for figuring
>> heat load on HVAC systems). 
>
> Heat output is not usefull output of course.
>
>> Also note that *rowing* is an ineffecient method of coupling human
>> strength to a drive train. Properly designed *pedals* work much better.
>
> Noted but the design sequenceces in question did not make that
> distinction.
>
>> Ah! I just remembered the applicable formula. W=Fd. 
>> 
>> So, lets see. 200 kilos of "push" = 2000 newtons. Thru a 1/2 meter
>> "stroke". That's 1 kJoule per stroke. At one stroke per second, that's
>> one *kilowatt*.  
>> Let's drop it to a "mere" 100 kilos. That's 500 watts. Still more than
>> the 350 you don't believe in, and well within the capacity of anybody
>> who can pedal a bike uphill at one stroke per second. 
>
> That seems mathematically right to me & I defer to your superior
> scientific knowledge but it seems high.  
>
> My favorite reference book [The Addison Wesley Science Handbook Ed
> Cloeman & Dewar, Addsion Wesley, ISBN 0-201-76652-3 (c) 1997 $18.00 US -
> shameless plug] says that 1 kilowatt hour equals 3,412 BTU / 3.6 x 10^13
> ergs / 85,294,000 foot pounds / 1.341  (nonmetric) horsepower hour /
> 3,600,00 joules / 860 kilocalories(food calories) / 367,099 kg force
> meters  
>
> Can a human being really generate a sustained 0.5 kilowatt?  That would
> be equal to 42 million foot pounds or 0.65 horsepower.  What do the real
> world data indicate?

I'd say an athelete in good condition can do it. Though "sustained" is
probably going to be less than an hour. 

> I knew that the 35 watts/hour base that the MT Wet Navy design sequence
> gave was low but is it really that low?

Again, I'd suggest that someone look up the figures for things like the
Gossamer Albatross (the human powered plane that crossed the English
Channel). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:45:08 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: Where is Scott Galliand?

The question in the subject line was received at Freelance Traveller.  
The sender was "AdamsGreg&Judy".  If Scott is on the list, please 
contact me.  If anyone knows where to contact Scott, please ask him to 
contact me.  The text of the message is below, omitting only the URL of 
the page referenced (which is on the old Freelance Traveller site at 
Tightbeam).

>I need to contact Scott Galliand whose page url is above.

>Thanks,

>Judy Galliand Adams

I apologise for the waste of bandwidth, but I don't have a contact 
address for Scott at the moment.

- -- 
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller (http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller)
freetrav@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:50:40 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

>Ah, I see that I've opened up an old debate.  I thought I remembered
>discussion on this a while back, but I don't remember it being a flamewar.

Well, I was being a little facetious. Sorry.

><Richard>
>You can design your cargo area as close to the ground as you want with any
>deck orientation. Any configuration can be designed with and deck
>orientation; parallel deck designs have no advantage and perpendicular
>decks have no disadvantage.
></Richard>
>
>I'm not sure I understand this.  If you've got a needle with perpendicular
>decks, how do you get lots of deckspace close to the ground?  By putting
>the thrust perpendicular to the long axis?  Hmm, I suppose this is
>possible, but it just seems a little odd to me.

Yes, that is how you do it. It's no more "odd" than bathyscaphes or Harrier
jets, though I realise their designs are less familiar.

[snip]
>Ah, so you are talking about thrust perp to the long axis.  I've always
>thought the resistance of needles to meson gun fire involved their ability
>to present minimum aspect to the enemy.  If the needle has to go sidelong
>when approaching or retreating, this is hard to do.

Ships with any deck orientation can turn to present whatever aspect they
want. Meson weapons target a point in space and an enemy turning sideways
will not be any harder to hit.

My understanding of the reason for configuration modifiers to meson
accuracy is that meson decay tends to spread out over a volume and
configurations like needles or wedges will have more of their volumes
outside the range of the meson decay than more compact configurations. This
will apply no matter what the deck orientation is.

>It seems to me that a tall thin
>structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
>of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically).  But given
>the existence of grav drives and high-power computers, I don't see this as
>a problem. Is that basically your position?  Or are you arguing that it's
>not more difficult to engineer a stable tall structure than a stable short
>one?

Tall structures can be designed to be stable in themselves and not need any
bracing or cable stays to hold them up. Skyscrapers are designed this way,
and starships can be too. This is the point many find hard to accept, and
the topic is too involved to go into here. If you want a more detailed
explanation email me privately.

[snip]
>They do if you need single large rooms for any reason, or if you want to
>minimize the need for up/down movement to get from place to place on a
>ship, which is good ergonomics.  That is, unless you're talking about
>putting thrust perp to the long axis...

If you need a single large room you should not use a needle configuration
at all. If you want a long hallway, this can be done using any deck
orientation.

Speaking as someone who has been in several buildings designed by Arthur
Erickson, I strongly dispute the notion that minimizing up/down movement is
"good ergonomics". I don't know many office workers who pine for mile-long
corridors instead of elevators.

>True, but a needle with the thrust going perp to the long axis is just not
>as cool, so I'd agree with this argument for ship designs with aesthetic
>considerations.

In this we will just have to agree to disagree.

>As for the arguments about safety and maneuvering without anti-grav, this
>only becomes a consideration if anti-grav is unreliable.  Those wishing
>for parallel decks ITTU can simply make anti-grav reliable and
>highly-efficient (i.e., requiring negligible power).  In any case, it
>should be a simple matter to have a cut-off of thruster power in the case
>of loss of gravity control (this would be necessary even if the decks were
>perp to thrust, since attitude maneuvers would still throw the crew around
>when the wall compensators failed).

It is not necessary with decks perpendicular to thrust; so long as they
keep maneuvers less than 1 G the ship can rotate to point toward the
desired direction and accelerate. This method does not work on ships with
parallel decks.

My point is that contragrav and inertial compensation are totally
unnecessary with perpendicular decks, except in high-thrust designs where
they still have the advantage. It doesn't matter how reliable, cheap, etc
you make contragrav, nothing is as cheap and reliable as equipment that
isn't needed.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:25:23 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)

>Pauses for a moment, takes lid of old can of worms...
>
>Would you be happy to see totally automated ships requiring only a
>handful, one or zero crew?

My first Traveller campaign had this, and I decided against it in my later
campaigns. The problem is that total automation is less interesting
dramatically. In this setting, players tended to "ask the computer" how to
solve problems and to send robots into dangerous situations rather than go
themselves. It rewarded characters with the better hardware and made the
players less significant. No matter how "realistic" it may be, I felt it
harmed the enjoyment of the game.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:07:24 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN)) (Ship Design, HG TL 10)

At 04:00 PM 18/02/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>           Cargo capacity is 195 tons. 
>
>Well, for one thing, 195 tons is *nothing*. At your "10% purity" and
>assuming the "average" density of 4 for "stony" material (ie "rock"),
>you started out with an "asteroid" that was all of 10 meters in diameter!

        G'Day Leonard!   My mistake in not being clear...  That is CT/HG
dtons....  or about 2635m3 of finished material.

        [*Excellent* information on RealWorld(tm) composition and usefulness
of asteroid belt snipped]

        Great information, thanks very much.
        However, there is a problem with it, IMHO.  Its a *lousy*
role-playing environment.  Very much makes belting a waste of time, as far
as I can see.  Very much the same vein of problem that the very real
arguement can be made that there would not be the massive trade levels
between systems that Traveller postulates.  IE:  Most likely right,  but
really complicates gaming.
        So, while I say thank-you for the data, it gets in the way of
gaming.  Any other comments about the design or the kit-bashed gaming
mechanics behind it?  I feel kind of funny writing this, as it seems stupid
saying "sorry, your post was *too* realistic.

        GM's:  IYHO, am I being a dummy here?  Is purposely swerving from
"hard science" in a sf game a bad idea to you?

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:13:10 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: On Handwaving

At 23:04 4-2-99 +1000, Ian Whitchurch wrote:
>I'd use the Piracy debate as one - we got a solution. We argued it out. We
>got some great scenario hooks. We got a resolution.

Before my time - could somebody fill me in, please?


James

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:45:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starships

In mail you write:

>>> Why would the military have any qualms about total automation?
>>> and the commercial case is just as strong.
>
>> the same two reasons that the US Navy sub branch insists on 100+ 
>> man crews when they could get buy with much smaller ones:
>> 1) tradition and 2) DAMAGE CONTROL.
>> You need bodies to repair and shore up things...
>
> So use robot bodies. They don't require any provisions except power. 
> They don't need any quarters. They don't need oxygen.
>
> How much of that damage control is to keep the ship capable of 
> supporting living beings?
>
> Would non-breathing robots be better at damage control in a damaged 
> spaceship?
>
> If you keep your ship in vacuum or inert gas atmosphere, where possible, 
> you don't worry about fires too much.
>
> Would you rather have one robot at peak efficiency 99% of the time, or 
> one living crew member at peak efficiency 33% of the time?

The problem is that robots aren't as flexible/adaptable as humans.
Also, a robot the shape and size of a human is *weaker* than a human
until pretty high TLs. Bone is actualy a *lot* stronger than a hunk of
steel the same size.

> Another poster:
>> Would you trust a killing machine you lose contact with when it enters 
>> jump ? I wouldn't, but then again that's probably just me.
>
> You mean like launching a cruise missile and trusting it not to kill 
> you. You already do!
>
> Would you rather them be in the hands of your average PC?
>
> I wouldn't want to let them be totally crewless either. But you can do 
> them with a lot less crew than at present.

Cruise missiles are *dumb*. Anything capable of repairing battle damage
is going to be *smart*. Smart enough that it will both be capable of
making decisions on its own and smart enough to arguably qualify as
intelligent life. Which means that you've just replaced one kind of
crew with another. One that's more expensive to produce. :-)

> Another poster:
>>In my Classic Traveller campaign, robots and expert-system computers
>>existed, but were deliberately limited by social and legal factors.
>
> I have no problems with anyones TU rationale. If all ships were fully 
> automated then would it still be traveller? I am just trying to point 
> out consequences of designing for maximum optimisation (the original 
> post).

Full automation that is "self-directing" gets back to the "they're
intelligent" bit. It also has the problem that anything flexible enough
to handle unexpected situations is flexible enough to ignore *any* rule
when it feels like it. 

Basicly, everything that's been learned about AI in the last 50 years
says that you can't get a self-directing machine *and* have rules it
will follow under all circumstances. The two are not compatible.

So you have a choice between not so bright robots that have to be told
(in more or less detail) what to do, and rescued when they hit a
situation not covered by instructions; or a "crew" that just happens to
be non-organic.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:04:33 +1000
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Man Portable Meson Guns

The thing that makes these things difficult under FFS2 is the need for a
beam pointer.

On the other hand, it's easy to build one suitably sized as a light support
weapon.

This will radically effect Traveller combat, unless we get a minimum length
put on the things.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:46:54 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives 

> Greetings All:
> 
> While skimming old TML Digests (looking for some adventure ideas), I noticed
> that I had never received the following from 1998: issues 151-154 (inclusive).
> 
> I downloaded the archive editions of these, but how does one "unstuff" or
> "unzip" these archives? The file is called:
> 
> tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z
> 
> (and I copied the upper and lower cases exactly)
> 
> Any ideas among the computer literati?

OK, the file is made using the unix tools tar and compress.  If you're using 
Linux, it's a snap:

uncompress tml*.tar.Z
tar xf tml*tar

I'm sure there are DOS/Win tools that can deal with this format, AAMOF, 
doesn't the latest Winzip handle them?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:54:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Man Portable Meson Guns

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Ian or Katts wrote:

> The thing that makes these things difficult under FFS2 is the need for a
> beam pointer.

I'm not clear about this -- why _does_ an indirect-fire weapon need a beam
pointer?  (In addition to indirect fire control gizmos, IIUC).

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:52:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

No flippin' PINEAPPLE!  You don't cook fruits with meat!

- --Clif
>
>> Charles L. (Italian sausage a must.  NO ANCHOVIES (My girlfriend HATES
fish
>> and I hate sleeping on the couch) anything else is fine by me.  GRIN! )
>
>BARBARIAN!!!!!!
>
>*EVERYBODY* knows it's supposed to be 'pepperoni & mushrooms'.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:15:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

Forgive me for my ignorance, but could you give me the details (even if
gory) of what the result was?

- --Clif

>The young human male NPC made a
>reaction check, failed it (in favor of aggresion), and promptly returned
>fire with the turret's only weapon, a sandcaster...
>
>My players still laugh about that encounter...
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:26:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

If that was supposed to be a slam, its shock value was lost due to the fact
that the comment was lost on me.

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Rowse <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...


>"Dent?  Aurthur Phillip  Dent?  You're a...  Oh, I've already done you..."
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: 17 February 1999 03:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...
>
>
>>I've already been granted permission to speak.  Who do you know who asks,
>>"Excuse me, but may I please insult you?"  Hmm, that's kinda funny.  I
>think
>>I'll use that.
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>>I thought there was a saying like: It is easier to ask for forgiveness
>>>than for permission.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:58:38 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur

>
>Forgive me for my ignorance, but could you give me the details (even if
>gory) of what the result was?
>
>--Clif
>
>>The young human male NPC made a
>>reaction check, failed it (in favor of aggresion), and promptly 
returned
>>fire with the turret's only weapon, a sandcaster...
>>
>>My players still laugh about that encounter...


The character was struck at point blank by the Traveller version of a 
55gal drum of fine crystal sand with a TNT charge in the center.
The drum explodes, spraying the area with sand (to reduce laser fire 
accuracy). In this case it spread a Zhodani male across the starport in 
really small particles.
The only time I've ever had a player character "vaporized" per se.
(If this was Paranoia, I'd have gotten an award...)
:)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:03:20 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

Greetings All:

Dom had asked about Andre Norton's "Solar Queen" series. I've listed below
both that series and her other series books (that I know of) along with
several non-series books that I'm familiar with.

Dom:

I wasn't sure if you were specifically asking (on TML) about the Solar Queen
series or all her various series...so here's what I know of her various series
books:

Blake Walker:
The Crossroads of Time (also part of the  "Crossroads of Time Series")
Quest Crosstime

Central Control:
Star Rangers (also published as "The Last Planet")
Star Guard

The Dipple Series:
Catseye
Judgment on Janus (also part of the Janus series)

Night of Masks

Forerunner Series (also known as the Shan Lantee series):
Storm Over Warlock 
Ordeal in Otherwhere
Forerunner Foray
Forerunner
Forerunner: The Second Venture

Free Traders Series (also known as the Moon Singer series):
Moon of Three Rings
Exiles to the Stars
Flight in Yiktor
Dare to Go A-Hunting

Hosteen Storm Series:
The Beast Master
The Lord of Thunder

The Janus Series:
Judgment on Janus (also part of the Dipple series)
Victory on Janus

The Jern Murdock Series:
The Zero Stone
Uncharted Stars

Pax/Astra:
The Stars Are Ours!
Star Born

Ross Murdock/Time War Series:
Time Traders
Galactic Derelict
The Defiant Agents
The Key Out of Time
Firehand (w/P.M. Griffin)

The Solar Queen Series:
Sargasso of Space
Plague Ship
Voodoo Planet (usually found in a Ace double with Star Hunter)
Postmarked the Stars
Redline the Stars (w/P.M. Griffin)
Derelict for Trade (w/S. Smith)
A Mind for Trade (w/S. Smith)

Not sure if it is part of a series

Dread Companion
Dark Piper

Not part of any series:

Star Man's Son (also known as Daybreak 2250 AD or Star Man's Son 2250 AD)
Android at Arms
Operation Time Search
Ice Crown
Secret of the Lost Race (also known as Wolfshead)
No Night Without Stars
The Sioux Spaceman
The X Factor
Perilous Dreams
Star Hunter (backed with Voodoo Planet in most editions that I've seen)
Wheel of Stars
Iron Cage
Star Gate

These are just drawn from the titles that I own. There's a heck of a lot more
that she's written! For example, I don't own any of the "Witch World" books,
they never appealed to me (that's about a 20 or so book series, if you include
collaborations and short story collections, etc.). She's definately been a big
influence on my Traveller campaign--and if you read the "Solar Queen" series
and others, I think she was an influence on Traveller itself!

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #168
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 169



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Current Space Stations and Solar Flares
Above the Law Level
Re: Delusions of Grandeur 
Re: Sorry, Guys...
Hitchers' Guide
TAS Site.
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: deckplans and Dulinor's views
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN))
Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: Solar Flares
Bradley vs M113
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Starship Ticket Prices
Re: Off-Topic
Re: Sorry, Guys...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:03:26 EST
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Current Space Stations and Solar Flares

Greetings All:

I'm trying to find a specific reference, but if I remember correctly the Mir
(along with Skylab, Saylut and theupcoming ISS) do **not** have a solar flare
"vault" for the crew. The reason: They orbit low enough so that the Earth's
own magnetic shields (Van Allen Belts) protect them from all but the worse
storms.

Now, each of these have/had "lifeboats" so that if things got really bad they
could abandon the station and return to Earth. Skylab had the Apollo command
(and service) modules, the Mir and Saylut have Soyuz capsule(s).

The ISS will initially have (I think) two Soyuz capsules on permanent
stationkeeping until the US gets the X (fill in the model number) finished and
funded and such. (I can't remember if it is X32...33...or 34..., but it
basically is a lifting body concept, not unlike the one that Colonel Austin
crashed at the start of each episode of a certain action/adventure show of the
70's...)

As for missions **above** theVan Allen zone, such as the Apollo missions to
the moon, they were planned during periods of low solar activity--in the hopes
that they would not get a surprise!

As for future missions, to Mars or wherever, a number of schemes are on the
books. Dramatic tellings of crews being zapped by radiation can be found in
various stories by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter (especially Baxter's
Titan, where one crew member is killed during a storm when she fails to hear
the alarm because she's listening to her Walkman!) as well as Kim Stanley
Robinson's "Red Mars" (first volume of the Mars Trilogy) and many more
besides...

Fred Kiesche
(Traveller Since 1977)
(Father Since 1998)

(P.S.: For a really good expose on the recent fun and games on Mir, I heartily
recommend Bryan Burrough's "Dragonfly". It details the experiences of most of
the American astronauts that spent time on Mir. It's a scary book!)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:25:30 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Above the Law Level

I'm wondering how to make a system where social class can make someone
"above the law level".

Doesn't seem realistic to only rely on skills and their levels.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:25:43 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Delusions of Grandeur 

> >Forgive me for my ignorance, but could you give me the details (even if
> >gory) of what the result was?
> >
> >>The young human male NPC made a
> >>reaction check, failed it (in favor of aggresion), and promptly 
> returned
> >>fire with the turret's only weapon, a sandcaster...
> >>
> >>My players still laugh about that encounter...
> 
> 
> The character was struck at point blank by the Traveller version of a 
> 55gal drum of fine crystal sand with a TNT charge in the center.
> The drum explodes, spraying the area with sand (to reduce laser fire 
> accuracy). In this case it spread a Zhodani male across the starport in 
> really small particles.
> The only time I've ever had a player character "vaporized" per se.
> (If this was Paranoia, I'd have gotten an award...)
> :)

So in effect, he got sandblasted into dust?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:28:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

At 08:26 PM 2/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>If that was supposed to be a slam, its shock value was lost due to the fact
>that the comment was lost on me.

You've never read _Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy_ either?

After you've read a few Heinleins, got get the incredibly mis-named
triology (up to five books) and prepare to enjoy.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:42:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Hitchers' Guide

I don't want the suicidal robot to put me over the edge.  : )

I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the secret
of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why would
I want to read it?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:04:07 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: TAS Site.

Who runs the TAS site?

I'd like to ask a couple questions about the site but I can't find an
E-Mail address anywhere.

Thanks in advance.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:13:23 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

At 21:03 20-2-99 EST, Fred Kiesche wrote:
>The Dipple Series:
>Catseye
>Judgment on Janus (also part of the Janus series)
>
>Night of Masks

*The X Factor* also starts out in the Dipple, I think....

>Forerunner Series (also known as the Shan Lantee series):
>Storm Over Warlock 
>Ordeal in Otherwhere
>Forerunner Foray
>Forerunner
>Forerunner: The Second Venture

Add *Brother at Arms* (think that's the correct title, which came out in
'95 or '95 - it's a second attempt at using the past-peering technology
from *Forerunner Foray*.

>The Jern Murdock Series:
>The Zero Stone
>Uncharted Stars

That's "Murdoch Jern."

>
>The Solar Queen Series:
>Sargasso of Space
>Plague Ship
>Voodoo Planet (usually found in a Ace double with Star Hunter)
>Postmarked the Stars
>Redline the Stars (w/P.M. Griffin)
>Derelict for Trade (w/S. Smith)
>A Mind for Trade (w/S. Smith)

And more promised....

>Not sure if it is part of a series
>
>Dread Companion
>Dark Piper

*Dark Piper* is a stand-alone.  Drawing a blank on *Dread Companion* -
though I'm sure I've read it - but I'm pretty sure it wasn't tied into a
series.

>Not part of any series:
>
>Star Man's Son (also known as Daybreak 2250 AD or Star Man's Son 2250 AD)
>Android at Arms
>Operation Time Search
>Ice Crown
>Secret of the Lost Race (also known as Wolfshead)
>No Night Without Stars
>The Sioux Spaceman
>The X Factor
>Perilous Dreams
>Star Hunter (backed with Voodoo Planet in most editions that I've seen)
>Wheel of Stars
>Iron Cage
>Star Gate

*Android at Arms* and *Star Hunter*, as I recall, while not part of any
series share themes with many of her other books, such as the Patrol and
the Salariki (a feline race first introduced in *Plague Ship*).  And as I
said earlier, I believe *The X Factor* starts out in the Dipple.

>These are just drawn from the titles that I own. There's a heck of a lot more
>that she's written! For example, I don't own any of the "Witch World" books,
>they never appealed to me (that's about a 20 or so book series, if you
include
>collaborations and short story collections, etc.). She's definately been a
big
>influence on my Traveller campaign--and if you read the "Solar Queen" series
>and others, I think she was an influence on Traveller itself!

Traveller's free traders certainly bear more resemblance to the Solar
Queen's crew than to Heinlein's or Cherryh's free traders.  And my concept
of what Scouts should be is based on her first-in scouts.

I have 70-odd of her books.  Got burned out on the Witch World after the
first dozen or so, and haven't bought any of the newer books in that
series.  My favourites (listed in no particular order):

     Star Rangers
     Dark Piper  (actually, I'd have to say those two are tied for
         first place)
     Plague Ship
     Breed to Come
     Ice Crown  (a great idea for a Red Zone!)
     Android at Arms
     Galactic Derelict
     Star Gate  (the only attempt I've ever seen at combining space
         travel and parallel worlds)
     Crossroads of Time  (I *love* parallel worlds)


James

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:29:36 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: deckplans and Dulinor's views

>My point is that contragrav and inertial compensation are totally
>unnecessary with perpendicular decks, except in high-thrust designs
>where
>they still have the advantage. It doesn't matter how reliable, cheap,
>etc
>you make contragrav, nothing is as cheap and reliable as equipment that
>isn't needed.

I can accept that perpendicular decks wont need inertial compesation (so 
long as they have limited maneuverability).  But I would argue that any 
kind of starship would want artificial gravity for the time in 
jumpspace.
- ------
>Dulinor's ideology is irrelevant to the debate - recall that, 
>officially, nobody knows whether Dulinor is even participating.

I thought he was, unofficially.  He was just doing it anonymously.  I 
though the entire reason for the debate(beyond the enjoyment of it), was 
due to his desire to voice his opinions and cause change.  And if that 
is the reason, then what are his views/ideology/beliefs?  Am I not 
understanding this correctly?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:34:45 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

> I'm wondering how to make a system where social class can make someone
> "above the law level".
> 
> Doesn't seem realistic to only rely on skills and their levels.

Use SOC as a DM.  One of the characters in my 2nd FTF game was a baroness at 
the start of the game, then through some luck and a lotta hard work, got 
kicked up to Marquesa about 7 game months into the campaign.  One 'toy' she 
got was an Imperial 'Right to Bear Arms' sticker on her patent of nobility, 
which meant she could carry just about anything that wasn't milspec any where 
in the Imperium.  Course, that *didn't* apply to her 'retainers' (i.e., the 
*rest* of the party), but she would blow through customs just showing her 
Patent with a needle gun openly showing on her hip...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:49:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

> she would blow through customs just showing her
>Patent with a needle gun openly showing on her hip...
>
>Keven
>
But then it was legal...

I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because they are
so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:54:23 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

Clif wrote:
> 
> I don't want the suicidal robot to put me over the edge.  : )
> 
Marvin isn't actively suicidal, merely _extermely_ depressed.

> I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the secret
> of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why would
> I want to read it?
> 
You may know the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything
(42).  But do you know the Question to which "42" is the Answer?  Read
the books.  Trust me (I'm a US Army interrogator, I wouldn't lie...). 
You _need_ to read these books (or at very least listen to the original
BBC radio series).

ObTrav:  What TL is the Infinite Improbability Drive?  Or the BistroMath
drive, for that matter?

> --Clif

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:50:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
In mail you write:

> What TL does superdense come in at? And what are the figures for it at
> various TLs?

Superdense is TL 12, Bonded Superdense is TL 14.  Before TL 12 radiation
shielding on starships essentially sucks. 

>> According to the same article vacc suits do not usefully protect against
>> radiation even TL 14 vacc suits only reduce the exposure by a factor of
>> 0.7.  However TL 12 combat armor or battle dress halves radiation exposure
>> and the TL 14 equivalents reduce exposure by a factor of 10.  Basically,
>> those are the things to wear if you are going outside during a flare. 

>A factor of 10 reduction only helps a little. It'll give you a few
>*minutes* of work time in a heavy flare. 

True, but it sure beats going outside without one.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:51:38 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

> > she would blow through customs just showing her
> >Patent with a needle gun openly showing on her hip...
> >
> >Keven
> >
> But then it was legal...
> 
> I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because they are
> so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)

I'm talking about planets with extreme law levels, 10+.  They *could* give her 
the run around, but her high SOC kept them from it.  She could have done just 
about *anything* and they would have left her alone.

In game effects, sometimes NPCs would do things for her for no apparant 
reason.  Like, one time, she used a sword on something and rilly screwed up 
the weapon.  It wasn't a family heirloom or anything, but an NPC who witnessed 
the event recovered the sword, had it mounted on a plaque for her, then 
presented it *AND* an heirloom quality sword of the same type to her as she 
was getting ready to leave.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:20:49 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>But then it was legal...
>
>I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because they are
>so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)


You roleplay it. No system can give rules for everything, nor should it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:21:30 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

At 07:52 PM 2/20/99 -0500, Clif wrote:
>No flippin' PINEAPPLE!  You don't cook fruits with meat!
>

Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:18:53 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: UN-MS Cape Breton (Belter Refinery Ship (Type GN))

>         [*Excellent* information on RealWorld(tm) composition and usefulness
> of asteroid belt snipped]
> 
>         Great information, thanks very much.
>         However, there is a problem with it, IMHO.  Its a *lousy*
> role-playing environment.  Very much makes belting a waste of time, as far
> as I can see.  Very much the same vein of problem that the very real
> arguement can be made that there would not be the massive trade levels
> between systems that Traveller postulates.  IE:  Most likely right,  but
> really complicates gaming.
>         So, while I say thank-you for the data, it gets in the way of
> gaming.  Any other comments about the design or the kit-bashed gaming
> mechanics behind it?  I feel kind of funny writing this, as it seems stupid
> saying "sorry, your post was *too* realistic.

It can be used to really *enhance* the experience as long as existing belting
isn't doing something foolish like smelting any old asteroid into <insert sci-
fi element/compound here>.  If something along those lines is being done, then
just disregard it.  If the particulars of belting aren't important (as it was
until I actually had a belter character in the campaign), then it doesn't
matter, either way.

My old civilian campaign was centered around an ex-belter and his partners.
The last time belting came up, Shadow basically told the same things (I have
the paraphrased dialogue printed, as a gaming reference).  Mostly, it was good
for library data and the mineralogical surveys in uninhabited systems (and the
"Belter Net" the ex-belter was subscribed too).  IMOA
 
>         GM's:  IYHO, am I being a dummy here?  Is purposely swerving from
> "hard science" in a sf game a bad idea to you?

Well I like the "hard science." : )  It's Traveller's "niche" IMO.  If I
swerved too far from "hard science," I'd probably drop Traveller and go back
to Star Wars or pick up Alternity (which I've seen alot of good things for...
as an aside, anyone see the 3D vector combat in the starships book?  I was
thinking of buying it, but kinda wanted a hip pocket review, particularly if
it's translatable to BL/BR hexes.  A good third of the book seems to be
deckplans and designs, too, though I have no use for these, it seemed by my
quick glance, aside from trying FF&S approximations, which I'm open to).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:18:55 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)

> Why would the military have any qualms about total automation?
> and the commercial case is just as strong.

The Shudushaam Accords?  "They take jobs for people" (presumabley the people
from the lower end of the TL scale; in the Imperium... think sweat shops. :-)
After the Collapse, it's going to be *really* unpopular.  ;-)

Megacorp bulk freighters might be another matter.  Maybe have a suit on board.
Some mechanics/maintenance/repair types (though some of these could be robots,
too).  Maybe a skeleton crew, if there's a situation I don't want robots
intelligent enough to react to (like spill the beans on what my cargo actually
is).  The rest, robots/automation the whole way.  Far more cost effective.
Shouldn't affect canon much since I don't think the particulars of these
beasts has ever been fully revealed (at least enough to invalidate any canon).
They already dominate the trade.

<insert arguments for and against jump torpedoes here, as well>  :-)

> Would you be happy to see totally automated ships requiring only a
> handful, one or zero crew?

Depends if I have my grav-belt handy and whether I'm infected w/ Virus or not.
:::donning asbestos loincloth:::


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:18:50 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

> However, it's canon that Traveller starships exist and that crews don't die
> every time they jump into a system that happens to be having a flare.
> There must exist some semi-magical TL-10 or so radiation shielding material;
> it's a technological necessity.

How many scenarios, in canon, have there been when there is a flare or
radiation heavy environment?  Outside of canon, even?

Along these lines, I'm interested in some simple numbers (preferably tied to
spectral type and luminosity) for radiation levels at the various orbital
zones.  Also, some gas giants will have this as an issue, too (Jupiter is
supposed to have a pretty mean field IIRC).  Also methods of protection on a
starship scale.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:18:58 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Bradley vs M113

While I'm in the USMC, I learned the basics of the US Army's doctrine at the
US Army Armor Center in Ft Knox, Ky when I was getting tanker training.
Basically, it's centered around the tank (the M1A1, in particular, though A2s
are about 1/3 of the batallions IIRC).  Cavalry (and infantry) exist to
"protect and conserve the combat power of other combined arms forces."   Their
vehicles (M2's & 3's, in particular) have as their primary mission:
reconnaissance and security.  The greater armor and speed of a Bradley is much
more desirable than an M113.  The M113 can't keep up w/ the Abrams, in either
combat or road march.  It's a death trap (for the whole batallion) against an
enemy operated under combined arms.  Kill the security element, get in AT
crews/equipment, kill the tanks.  A Bradley is more survivable than an M113 in
that role.  Comfort?  I dunno bout the US Army, but for the Marines, mission
accomplishment is #1.  Troop welfare is *next.*  

Reference is FM 17-15, Tank Platoon.  HQ, Dept of the Army (my copy is April
1996, though i've seen newbies w/ newer printings).

For the BMP-3 fan out there (can't remember who you are)... Being that the US
Army (and the US military, in general) is centered around combined arms
(meaning there will almost always be an Abrams around when there's a Bradley,
even in the cavalry troop), a BMP-3 is going to be looking at 120mm APFSDSDU
coming its way.  A BMP-3 is a tad higher on the threat list than the others.
Speaking as a tanker (and a gunner at that), this will get them killed a whole
lot more.  :-)  The smaller weapons are alot easier to ignore than the 100mm
on the BMP-3, at least when there are other targets.  The two tank platoons in
the armored cavalry troop will see to it, that is if air don't get it.  Course
the Army doesn't have the luxury the Marines have... independant air support.
:-)

Now, for the US Marines, we have it the other way around.  The tanks are
support for the infantry.   For whoever u where who was saying how fun it is
to ride in an AAV... it's NOT!  lol.  I much prefer being in the Abrams for
the amphibious landing and that isn't (much) fun either (especially after!).

Ob Trav.  The Imperial Army and Imperial Marines are likely the same way as
the US on this doctrine, except the Imperial Marines are primarily space
(heavy infantry/jump troops) rather than amphibious w/ grav tanks, APCs,
ortillery, etc as support.  See the TO&E of the Imperial Marine MArCav
regiment.  :-)  Imperial Army?  Trepidas and Astrins substituted for Abrams
and Bradleys, though TL-15 Heavy Grav Tanks for higher TL worlds, and you
should have the gist of it.  Regency Combat Vehicle Guide is invaluable for
this discussion. : )


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:21:40 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

In message <00a201be5d34$87fdeac0$42e5d7cc@clif1>, Clif
<brclif@digital.net> writes
>No flippin' PINEAPPLE!  You don't cook fruits with meat!

Well, it can be argued that pineapple juice *does* cook meat.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:11:56 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Ticket Prices

I've always looked at the "list price" as the bargaining point to start
from.  For example; Mr X is looking for a jump four ship to take him to a
port 4 jumps away (obviously).  He finds Cpt Z and starts negotiating with
him. Cpt Z argues that he doesn't normally go that route and he would have
to come up with an entirely new cargo manifest.  They reach an agreement
based on the fact that if Mr. X doesn't use him he would have to take one
jump 2 and two jump 1 treks adding two weeks plus to his schedule.  This
would normally cost him 24 KCr for middle passage.  They agree on the 24 KCr
and Mr X saves the two weeks.  They could agree on less or more, depends on
barter skills, etc.  When you go to a car dealership do you pay list price?
Actually that is irellevant to the this discussion but the point is "IYTU"
and  MOST rules to me are always a good starting point.  It also adds to the
role playing....

Thom
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Starship Ticket Prices


>Thad Coons wrote
>
>> I was about to argue for fixed prices...
>
>I've always assumed that it was less of a mistake than a feature ; )
>I assumed that the fixed price of tickets was enforced by the Imperium.  It
>represents a 'subsidy' of lower jump ships over higher ones, making it far
>more economical to operate lower jump ships than high.  This would have the
>effect of dampening the speed of private communication and the movement of
>citizens.
>
>This was a legacy of the First Imperium, with its forced monopoly on J2
>(IIRC).  When J3+ became widespread in the modern Imperium, and the
>frontiers 'closed' (actually impossible with starfaring civilization), the
>price of passage was fixed in order to 'control' information/population
>movements.  The nobility realized there would be no way to actually stop
the
>use of higher jump capable ships, but this goes a long way toward keeping
>them in the hands of the very wealthy.
>
>Of course, this is bad for business on a certain level, but the Imperium is
>not a free market government.  It is an authoritarian system, with its main
>area of authority interstellar travel.
>
>Travelling at middle passage, Cr 8000, for jump 1 is a relative deal for a
>starship operator.  Jump 6 for the same price will feel like a ripoff.  The
>demand for higher jump passenger ships will be far less than for low jump
>ships.
>
>
>Joe
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:39:31 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic

On the other hand, "interoffice chat" is often a better source than more
official releases... whether intentionally or not.

<<SNIP>>
- -----Original Message-----


>Heh heh.  If only Vision Forge Graphics was big enough to HAVE cubes!!!
>Maybe someday after we take over ILM :)  Actually, I'm in San Jose and
>Todd's in Stockton.  We never could seem to end up in the same town for any
>length of time!
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>Oh, great...NOW we get treated to interoffice chatter, too ! ;-P
>>
>>Guys, guys, guys...using e-mail to communicate between cubes is one of
>>the Seven Deadly Signs of Geekiness!!
>>

<<UNSNIP>>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:01:18 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...

Clif,

It wasn't a slam - it was actually intended to support you (but I guess
you're not used to that around here, are you? ;) ...).  It'll make sense if
you read the books (unfortunately I cannot remember which one it is in!)

"Is there any tea on this spaceship?"

Authur De.. Oops, sorry I'm not, am I?

Jeff.R.


<<SNIP>>
- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 21 February 1999 01:36 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry, Guys...


>If that was supposed to be a slam, its shock value was lost due to the fact
>that the comment was lost on me.
>
>--Clif
<<UNSNIP>>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #169
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 170



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)
Re: Starship Ticket Prices
[OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives 
Re: Starship Ticket Prices
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #169
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Dulinor's views
Re: Dulinor's views

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:11:07 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: coolness under fire (Really LONG)

Two questions:

Don't they have zoos in 'Nam?
What happened to the rest of their ammunition?

Jeff R.

<<SNIP>>

>It was probably guerilla, but the author spelled it wrong.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>
>>niether. the above represents a scenerio. no skill was present. I read a
>>story of a vietnam incounter; a patrol was hoofing it through a jungle,
saw
>>some hefty movement unloaded into the bush thinking a VC patrol was about
>>to jump em, instead they got a really upset gorilla. who proceded to show
>>them why you don't piss off animals that are really strong.
>
>Gorilla? Vietnam?
>

<<UNSNIP>>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:08:55 -0500
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Ticket Prices

Thom Harris wrote:

> I've always looked at the "list price" as the bargaining point to start
> from.  For example; Mr X is looking for a jump four ship to take him to a
> port 4 jumps away (obviously).  He finds Cpt Z and starts negotiating with
> him. Cpt Z argues that he doesn't normally go that route and he would have
> to come up with an entirely new cargo manifest.  They reach an agreement
> based on the fact that if Mr. X doesn't use him he would have to take one
> jump 2 and two jump 1 treks adding two weeks plus to his schedule.  This
> would normally cost him 24 KCr for middle passage.  They agree on the 24 KCr
> and Mr X saves the two weeks.  They could agree on less or more, depends on
> barter skills, etc.  When you go to a car dealership do you pay list price?
> Actually that is irellevant to the this discussion but the point is "IYTU"
> and  MOST rules to me are always a good starting point.  It also adds to the
> role playing....

I think that the assumption you are missing is that the Captain is the one
looking for passengers to a specific location.  At that point it becomes a
"coming along for the ride" scenario.  Basically, you post your destination and
wait for people to sign on.

The theory you're presenting is called Chartering a starship, and it is a
different set of rules entirely.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:07:57 -0500
From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
Subject: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> While I'm in the USMC, I learned the basics of the US Army's doctrine at the
> US Army Armor Center in Ft Knox, Ky when I was getting tanker training.
> Basically, it's centered around the tank (the M1A1, in particular, though A2s
> are about 1/3 of the batallions IIRC).

M2A2...i didn't know that was a real tank, I remember seeing in my old twilight 2k
book and thinking that it was some sorta projection or extrapolation.  the
twilight 2k book shows a weird looking picture and mentions something about a
casemate (unmanned) turret

perhaps you could enlighten me

later
chris pratt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:17:01 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Martin Hardgrave wrote:

> In message <00a201be5d34$87fdeac0$42e5d7cc@clif1>, Clif
> <brclif@digital.net> writes
> >No flippin' PINEAPPLE!  You don't cook fruits with meat!
>
> Well, it can be argued that pineapple juice *does* cook meat.

Indeed.  The acids from fruits also help bring out the flavor of meats.

Some common examples:
Fish with lemon
Duck with orange
Beef with orange (often in Chinese dishes)
Pork with apple

Pineapple's relatively strong flavor (as fruits go), is especially well
suited to
balance spicy meat, especially sausage.

Ob. Trav...  This got me thinking about Third Imperium cuisine, Vilani Shugili's
and the like.  Shugili's have their secrets, but I'm wondering if there might be some
parallels to the Kosher laws.  The one I always remember is that it is not kosher
to cook an animal in the milk of its mother (so no cooking of beef in butter).
Rastafarians have their own rules about diet.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:20:32 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Bill Rutherford wrote:

> Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)

It has characteristics of both fruits and vegetables.  Its not clearly in one
of the other.
IIRC, vegetable like because it doesn't grow from the blossom
of a flower.  Fruit like because it contains seeds.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:15:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

Okay, so what WAS the reason?  They were a groupie?

- --Clif

>In game effects, sometimes NPCs would do things for her for no apparant
>reason.  Like, one time, she used a sword on something and rilly screwed up
>the weapon.  It wasn't a family heirloom or anything, but an NPC who
witnessed
>the event recovered the sword, had it mounted on a plaque for her, then
>presented it *AND* an heirloom quality sword of the same type to her as she
>was getting ready to leave.
>
>Keven
>
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:17:07 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

That's a cop-out.  I made the post asking for a system, not for the pat
answer of "roleplay it."

- --Clif


>>But then it was legal...
>>
>>I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because they
>are
>>so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)
>
>
>You roleplay it. No system can give rules for everything, nor should it.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:19:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

Heh heh.  Yeah, ya got me there!  Funny how it shows up on a veggie pizza,
though.  : )

- --Clif


>
>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:29:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

>Course
>the Army doesn't have the luxury the Marines have... independant air support.
>:-)
>
What do you call the Air Cav? I'm assuming by "independent" you mean that
the air support doesn't come from another branch of service.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:29:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

At 09:42 PM 2/20/99 -0500, Clif wrote:

>I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the secret
>of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why would
>I want to read it?

Umm.. because it's one of the funniest things written in the English
language in the last thirty years?

Because there's so much more to the whole Ultimate Question than the Answer?

because it's a book you haven't read?  (That's reason enough for me...)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:34:50 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

What is the name of the Israeli modification of the M1 Abrams?

- --Clif
>M2A2...i didn't know that was a real tank, I remember seeing in my old twilight 2k
>book and thinking that it was some sorta projection or extrapolation>
>perhaps you could enlighten me

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:08:48 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

- ----------
> From: Christopher Pratt <valen@gatecom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
> Date: Sunday, 21 February, 1999 12:07 PM
> 
> 
> 
> M2A2...i didn't know that was a real tank, I remember seeing in my old twilight 2k
> book and thinking that it was some sorta projection or extrapolation.  the
> twilight 2k book shows a weird looking picture and mentions something about a
> casemate (unmanned) turret

The Twilight 2000 M1A2 with the casemated turret was an invention of the
game.  

The real M1A2 is a "digitized" MBT.  It looks almost the same as the M1A1
(with an extra thermal sight for the commander) but is radically rewired
internally.  Instead of lots of separate electronic systems (many of them
analog) the M1A2 has a digital data bus so that the internal electronics
can work together and an Inter-Vehicular Information System (IVIS) for
sharing position information, maps, status reports, orders, etc between
vehicles.

ObTrav: this sort of capability should be totally second nature to high
tech combat vehicles (and even battledress infantry) in the Third Imperium.
 Unit commanders should be routinely sending digital maps of planned
actions or movements, checking the status of their subordinates, holding
briefings over comm links, etc.  When you have a regiment or division
covering a whole planet, face-to-face meetings will not be practical.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:39:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

At 12:17 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>That's a cop-out.  I made the post asking for a system, not for the pat
>answer of "roleplay it."

No, that's the answer.

Say a world is law-level ten, but the family members of the ruling
oligarchy can get away with murder.  (Example: the families of high party
members in the USSR).

An Oligarch's son stands the same chance of being arrested for deviant
decadent behavior, but when they find out who he is (and more importantly,
who his father is), he'll be released with an apology.

What you as the Referee do is decide to whom the laws don't apply and why.
Possible reasons are religious, corruption, financial, or some other
influence.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:42:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

At 12:29 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:

>What do you call the Air Cav? I'm assuming by "independent" you mean that
>the air support doesn't come from another branch of service.

Helicopters. Not front line fighters and strike aircraft, with dedicated
aviation roles clearly defined.

The best that the Army can do is the AH-64C.  The USMC has organic F/A-18
and AV-8B units as part of their commands structure at a far lower level
that we do.  Army units have to liase with an entirely different branch to
get air support, and that branch has different priorities.

Anyway, IIRC there's only one Air Cav unit left, the 6th ACCB at Ft. Hood.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:54:13 +0000
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives 

> > The file is called:
> > 
> > tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z
> > 
> OK, the file is made using the unix tools tar and compress.  If you're using 
> Linux, it's a snap:
> 
> uncompress tml*.tar.Z
> tar xf tml*tar
> 
Actually because Linux uses the GNU version of tar you should be able to save 
yourself typing effort and disk space using:

tar -Zxf tml*tar.Z

which will both uncompress and extract the file, without leaving the 
uncompressed archive lying around. On most other UNIXen you should be able to 
achieve the same effect through:

zcat file.tar.Z | tar -xf-

> I'm sure there are DOS/Win tools that can deal with this format, AAMOF, 
> doesn't the latest Winzip handle them?
> 
Yes, as I remember it handles the compression and the archival (ie it does 
both an uncompress and a tar).

M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:09:55 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Ticket Prices

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Starship Ticket Prices


>
>
>Thom Harris wrote:
>
>> I've always looked at the "list price" as the bargaining point to =
start
>> from.  For example; Mr X is looking for a jump four ship to take him =
to a
>> port 4 jumps away (obviously).  He finds Cpt Z and starts negotiating =
with
>> him. Cpt Z argues that he doesn't normally go that route and he would =
have
>> to come up with an entirely new cargo manifest.  They reach an =
agreement
>> based on the fact that if Mr. X doesn't use him he would have to take =
one
>> jump 2 and two jump 1 treks adding two weeks plus to his schedule.  =
This
>> would normally cost him 24 KCr for middle passage.  They agree on the =
24 KCr
>> and Mr X saves the two weeks.  They could agree on less or more, =
depends on
>> barter skills, etc.  When you go to a car dealership do you pay list =
price?
>> Actually that is irellevant to the this discussion but the point is =
"IYTU"
>> and  MOST rules to me are always a good starting point.  It also adds =
to the
>> role playing....
>
>I think that the assumption you are missing is that the Captain is the =
one
>looking for passengers to a specific location.  At that point it =
becomes a
>"coming along for the ride" scenario.  Basically, you post your =
destination and
>wait for people to sign on.
>
>The theory you're presenting is called Chartering a starship, and it is =
a
>different set of rules entirely.
>
Yes and no to your response.  I tend to play a little more loosely in my =
campaigns.  I generally don't have a set route that my guys run.  They =
are using Andy Slack's "Explorer" class, 300 dt, J5 star ship.  They =
tend to flow toward the dollar signs.  The example that I used above =
IMTU is pretty common.  Passengers (patrons) generally provide the =
direction in which the next adventure will take off and I like a lot of =
role playing so it works well for me.  They role play with the patron =
and then do some speculative trading.  Whiskey and furs for high tech - =
high population and so on.  Yes chartering the entire ship to go to one =
location is a different set of rules altogether.  On that we most =
certainly agree.  When they can swing one of these deals they usually =
make a few bucks because the patron has to buy the insurance for the =
run, all overhead and all expendables too. <WEG>

Thom

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face=3D""=20
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From:=20
Joe Pettit &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jpettit@ix.netcom.com">jpettit@ix.netcom.com</A>&gt;<BR>To=
: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:traveller@MPGN.COM">traveller@MPGN.COM</A>&gt;<BR>Date: =
Sunday,=20
February 21, 1999 11:12 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Starship Ticket=20
Prices<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thom Harris=20
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I've always looked at the &quot;list =
price&quot; as=20
the bargaining point to start<BR>&gt;&gt; from.&nbsp; For example; Mr X =
is=20
looking for a jump four ship to take him to a<BR>&gt;&gt; port 4 jumps =
away=20
(obviously).&nbsp; He finds Cpt Z and starts negotiating =
with<BR>&gt;&gt; him.=20
Cpt Z argues that he doesn't normally go that route and he would=20
have<BR>&gt;&gt; to come up with an entirely new cargo manifest.&nbsp; =
They=20
reach an agreement<BR>&gt;&gt; based on the fact that if Mr. X doesn't =
use him=20
he would have to take one<BR>&gt;&gt; jump 2 and two jump 1 treks adding =
two=20
weeks plus to his schedule.&nbsp; This<BR>&gt;&gt; would normally cost =
him 24=20
KCr for middle passage.&nbsp; They agree on the 24 KCr<BR>&gt;&gt; and =
Mr X=20
saves the two weeks.&nbsp; They could agree on less or more, depends=20
on<BR>&gt;&gt; barter skills, etc.&nbsp; When you go to a car dealership =
do you=20
pay list price?<BR>&gt;&gt; Actually that is irellevant to the this =
discussion=20
but the point is &quot;IYTU&quot;<BR>&gt;&gt; and&nbsp; MOST rules to me =
are=20
always a good starting point.&nbsp; It also adds to the<BR>&gt;&gt; role =

playing....<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;I think that the assumption you are missing =
is that=20
the Captain is the one<BR>&gt;looking for passengers to a specific=20
location.&nbsp; At that point it becomes a<BR>&gt;&quot;coming along for =
the=20
ride&quot; scenario.&nbsp; Basically, you post your destination =
and<BR>&gt;wait=20
for people to sign on.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The theory you're presenting is =
called=20
Chartering a starship, and it is a<BR>&gt;different set of rules=20
entirely.<BR>&gt;</FONT><FONT size=3D1><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Yes=20
and no to your response.&nbsp; I tend to play a little more loosely in =
my=20
campaigns.&nbsp; I generally don't have a set route that my guys =
run.&nbsp; They=20
are using Andy Slack's &quot;Explorer&quot; class, 300 dt, J5 star =
ship.&nbsp;=20
They tend to flow toward the dollar signs.&nbsp; The example that I used =
above=20
IMTU is pretty common.&nbsp; Passengers (patrons) generally provide the=20
direction in which the next adventure will take off and I like a lot of =
role=20
playing so it works well for me.&nbsp; They role play with the patron =
and then=20
do some speculative trading.&nbsp; Whiskey and furs for high tech - high =

population and so on.&nbsp; Yes chartering the entire ship to go to one =
location=20
is a different set of rules altogether.&nbsp; On that we most certainly=20
agree.&nbsp; When they can swing one of these deals they usually make a =
few=20
bucks because the patron has to buy the insurance for the run, all =
overhead and=20
all expendables too. &lt;WEG&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_01B5_01BE5DA3.DB477BA0--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:11:45 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In a message dated 2/20/99 9:28:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< 'm wondering how to make a system where social class can make someone
 "above the law level".
 
 Doesn't seem realistic to only rely on skills and their levels.
 
 --Clif
 
  >>
	I seem to remember one version of Traveller where a character rolled 2d6 vs
his Social Stauts to "avoid police harassment"  or some such thing.  Sounds
like the basis for  a system.  Perhaps make characters on Low Law Level
Planets roll Soc or less on 2d6, Mod law planets on 2.5 or 3d6, High Law
planets 3d6, 3.5 or 4d6.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:13:47 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

Whatever you do, however, do not buy Quag Keep!  It was a wretched piece of
drivel.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:03:56 -0700
From: Samir <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #169

whats with the reply to on this digest I have tried three times to reply to
statements on my postings and have not seen them show up on the digest????>
    
 When I'm feeling down, I whistle.  It makes the neighbor's dog run to the
end of his chain and gag himself.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:11:40 -0500
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

At 02:13 PM 2/21/1999 EST, you wrote:
>Whatever you do, however, do not buy Quag Keep!  It was a wretched piece of
>drivel.
>
>			Dave Nelson
>

Too late!  Very true, but much, much too late to
spare my yankee dollars :P

JB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:22:44 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>That's a cop-out.  I made the post asking for a system, not for the pat
>answer of "roleplay it."


Whatever you say, Clif.

I'm not in the mood for having a helpful suggestion that I made turn into
some sort of argument.

Roleplay it. There's no rule or set of rules that will work in even a
minority of the situations of the type you requested information on. The
only solution is to wing it... Y'know, come up with something on the fly
that is appropriate. That's really the only way. There are no magic rules.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:28:19 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Dulinor's views

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:29:19 -0500, "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[quoting me]

>>Dulinor's ideology is irrelevant to the debate - recall that, 
>>officially, nobody knows whether Dulinor is even participating.

>I thought he was, unofficially.  He was just doing it anonymously.  I 
>though the entire reason for the debate(beyond the enjoyment of it), was 
>due to his desire to voice his opinions and cause change.  And if that 
>is the reason, then what are his views/ideology/beliefs?  Am I not 
>understanding this correctly?

There is a difference between _views_ and _ideology_ and
_espoused_positions_.  Look at any U.S. politician for proof.

Unofficially, it's a pretty good bet that one of the "orators" in
the debate is, in fact, Dulinor himself.  I'll even go so far as
to say that I will be His Grace's alter-ego in this debate.  But
you don't need to know what is views or ideology are; you need to
consider his espoused ideas, and that only in the persona context
of the debate.  I will say this, though - this is the hardest
piece of writing I have done in many years; it is not easy making
a reasoned and convincing argument for a position that one is
strongly though perhaps not viscerally opposed to in real life.

Officially, the Archduke's office is watching the debate with
interest, but has no comment at this time on the views espoused
by either side.  And this official position will be reflected in
the official positions of most if not all of the other August
Personages that the Press may choose to make inquiries of
concerning the matter.  That is an important aspect of the entire
premise; the use of anonymity - even blatant anonymity - is to
minimise the chances of _personalities_ influencing the debate
itself.  Certainly, there will be "leaks" from various "unnamed
sources close to" the August Personages which will indicate the
Personage's personal views on the matter - but deniability will
be maintained, mostly because _nobody_knows_what_the_Emperor_
_thinks,_or_how_he_will_react._  If Bzrk of Antares comes out
publicly for the activist/democratic position, and the Emperor
decides separately that this is a _very_ bad thing for the
Imperium, he will certainly be influenced toward the removal of
His Grace of Antares, as being unreliable.  Noblesse Oblige must
be given at least lip service; one does not wish to offend the
Emperor to whom one has sworn loyalty.

As I say, positions will become clear when the in-persona
postings start - which will be as soon as I finish writing
Dulinor's case (a difficult job for me, as I indicated above -
but that's part of what makes it fun for me).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:30:24 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dulinor's views

Jeff,

Could you fill us in again, just how this debate will be managed in real-life?

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #170
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, February 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 171



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[BITS] BITS Website Update 21 Feb 99
Dagudashaag sector web site (long)
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: Andre Norton
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Van Rijn Class Freighter
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Hitchers' Guide

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:44:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] BITS Website Update 21 Feb 99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

The BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/ has just been updated and now
includes the following:

102 Vehicles for Marc Miller's Traveller (T4).
- -------------------------------------------------------
Yes, a month after 101 Starships for GURPS Traveller, Rob Prior has done it
again. This time BITS presents you over a hundred vehicles for T4, designed
with the Central Supply Catalog rules and Rob's Infini-V Software for MacOS
(also available from BITS). The vehicles range from the mundane to the
exotic and should give the harrassed GM some help. And Tech Levels are
included!

Why 102 Vehicles? Because DGP had a 101 Vehicles, and calling this latest
101 Series product 102 Vehicles avoided any legal problems, and
differentiated from the DGP book.

This free download is in Acrobat format, and co-hosted with Freelance
Traveller. Size approx 460 kb. Archives page.

Armour Compendium for Marc Miller's Traveller.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Designed by Dave Nelson, this single page Acrobat file contains all the
different types of armour in the various T4 rulebooks, and lists the
special rules. An ideal companion to the existing T4 Combat Cribsheet on
the 'archive page'.

Rob Prior's software.
- --------------------------
All the demos for Rob Prior's software published by BITS are now available
via the products page. These include Infini-V, QSDS and Imperial Grand
Survey (late beta). GURPS Traveller Shipyard will eventually be here too.
All require the freeware Stuffit Expander to decompress, and at present are
only for MacOS.

Rob's other software is still at http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/RPS.html
and includes Metator, MegaCharacter and others. This page will be revised
in the near future to remove IGS2 and the other BITS products.

TowerCon 99
- ----------------
BITS are planning to be at TowerCon 99 - so far attendees planned are Andy
Lilly, myself and possibly Richard Talbot. As well as RPG demos, we plan to
have the latest version of the Full Thrust Traveller system for playtest,
and probably an ACQ demo. Details of the Con may be found via the
Travelling page on the BITS website.


BITS can be contacted at   bits@bits.org.uk
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Dom (BITS webmaster)


- ------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk-------
        BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
                http://www.bits.org.uk/
                 mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises. GURPS is a registered trademark of
Steve Jackson Games, Inc. All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:57:36 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Dagudashaag sector web site (long)

For my new campaign, which will be set in Dagudashaag sector, I've created a
website which I'd like to take the liberty to advertise here.

It's not finished yet, but I think some of you might find it worthwile to take
a look already now. It contains a sector map, UWPs, an overview article and a
little more. Later on, library data will be added.

It's placed at http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/dagudashaag/

Comments are welcome.

Here's an appetizer:


History

Vilani explorer first ventured into Dagudashagg in -8100. Mimu and Iiradli
subsectors were settled as early as around -8000, during the initial Vilani
expansion into space. As only these to subsectors were accessible from the
Vilani Main, it took some time before the jump-1 restricted Vilani could
efficiently venture into the rest of Dagudashaag, but with the establishment
of deep space refuelling stations at 0318 and 0411 around -7100, regular albeit
expensive connections were established between the Vilani and Dagudashaag
Mains. Later, around -6800, another deep space refuelling station was
established at 2338, linking the Dagudashaag Main with the Sylean Main, and
thereby opening large portions of Core sector as well as Kuriishe subsector up
for exploration and trade.

As the three bureaux were formed, Dagudashaag was assigned to Naasirka together with Gushemege, Ilelish and Verge. Records from this period shows the first uses of the name Dakhukuga Gulike Dushaage for the area. The name means "Rimward Galactic Province", and has over time been corrupted and contracted to Dagudashaag.

The rimward parts of Dagudashaag constituted part of the frontier of the Vilani Economic Sphere when the Consolidation Wars broke out in -5400. From here, the Vilani advanced on their foes with their newly developed jump-2 technology. The deep space refuelling station at 2338 was dismantled, as were other similar installations everywhere along the border, and jump-2 tenders were commissioned to service the still large amount of Vilani jump-1 commercial traffic which was still going on. The deep space stations connecting the Vilani and Dagudashaag Main were considered to be inside safe territory, and were first decommissioned several centuries later when jump-2 had come into widespread commercial use.

After the Consolidation Wars the Ziru Sirka was established in -4045, and Dagudashaag prospered and then stagnated together with the rest of the First Imperium. By -2800 the empire was slowly beginning to come apart at the seams, but Dagudashaag still enjoyed relative peace and quiet, being a neighbor to Vland and situated deep within the Ziru Sirka.

In -2422 the Solomani made first contact with the First Imperium. For a very long time, this historical event went unnoticed in Dagudashaag. First with the Eighth and Ninth Interstellar Wars, any notice was taken of the events to rimward, but even then, Dagudashaag continued on as before. As the fighting of the Nth Interstellar War drew closer, the sector mobilized, but was unable to stop the advancing Solomani forces.

In -2271 the sector saw action for the first time in the Battle of Gheesak, which marked the beginning of the first Solomani campaign in Dagudashaag. During the next 52 years the Solomani consistenly rolled over the sector in their continued drive towards Vland. In -2222 the Solomani offensive had landed in Vland sector, and by -2219 it was all over.

During the Rule of Man, Dagudashaag saw it's share of unemployment, civil unrest and petty wars as the new empire continued the fall of the First Imperium. Around -1600 some worlds began to form small interstellar states as a bulwark against the oncoming Long Night, but to no avail. During the Long Night, most worlds lost interstellar capabilities, and many populations died out as technology declined. The sector was hard hit.

Around -500 Sylean traders and scouts recontacted worlds in Dagudashaag. With Sylean technology many worlds again took to the stars, and trade began to flourish. Dagudashaag slowly revitalized. When the Third Imperium formed, many worlds resisted being included in the new empire, due to bad experiences from the Rule of Man. Lancian philosophy was spreading deep into the sector from neighboring Gushemege.

The Imperium first tried to win over the worlds of the sector by economic and diplomatic means, but although many worlds joined the Third Imperium, resistance was growing on many more. A technological power base with the potential to rival that of the Imperium was building up in parts of Vland, Gushemege and Dagudashaag.

As a counterstrike, emperor Artemsus launched the Vilani Pacification Campaign in 76, headed by the Archduke of Vland. Different cultural groups in the area drew unpleasant parallels to the Consolidation Wars 5000 years earlier and resisted violently. The campaign affected Mimu, Old Suns, Arnakhish, Shallows, Ushra, Khandi, Pact and Sapphyre subsectors as well as subsectors in Gushemege, Corridor and Vland, and was unusually long and bloody. In the end, the young Imperium's much larger production base proved an unstoppable juggernaut. The Vilani Pacification Campaign ended in 120.

The next 400 years was characterized by rebuilding and progress. In 604 the Civil War broke out, and rapidly spread to Dagudashaag due to the sector's closeness to Core. During the war, the Lancians continually worked to restore normalcy. When Arbellatra came on the scene, the Lancians were some of her earliest supporters. The culture used considerable resources to support her. As a recognition of that help, the empress proclaimed the formation of the Lancian Cultural Region in 639. The Region is placed mainly in Gushemege, but also encompasses Mimu subsector of Dagudashaag, as well as Sashrakusha subsector of Corridor.

Since the end of the Civil War, Dagudashaag has enjoyed a relatively uneventful existence.

Dagudashaag in the Rebellion

In 1116 emperor Strephon was assasinated by archduke Dulinor; an event which sparked the Rebellion. In 1117 Dagudashaag saw some of the first heavy fleet battles of the Rebellion, as Lucan's and Dulinor's forces clashed. Especially Argi and Sapphyre subsectors were hard hit. In late 1117 news about Strephon's survival began to spread widely in Dagudashaag sector.

In 1118 a new front formed as many worlds in Mimu subsector declared their allegiance to the "Real" Strephon, although no real fighting took place. The frontline between Lucan's and Dulinor's forces stabilized somewhat in Sapphyre subsector, although heavy fighting was still taking place. Dulinor launched raids deep into Core sector, with major battles also taking place in Khandi and Kuriishe subsectors.

1119 still saw no major fighting on the "Real" Strephon/Lucan front in Dagudashaag, although the two parties were involved in heavy fighting elsewhere. On the other front, Lucan's forces pursued Dulinor's fleets through Dagudashaag as they withdrew from their raids in Core. Again, Khandi and Kuriishe subsectors saw heavy fighting. Meeting determined resistance from Dulinor's forces in Zeda, The Remnants, Pact and Sapphyre subsectors, Lucan's admiral Wainfrost retreated, bombarding Biik (0323 Dagudashaag), Ispumer (1222 Dagudashaag), Dashi (1723 Dagudashaag), Ekhugush (1728 Dagudashaag), Medurma (2124 Dagudashaag), Dipa (2223 Dagudashaag), Ikapi (1929 Dagudashaag) and Durgaarur (1735 Dagudashaag) with nuclear weapons, initializing a new "scorched earth" strategy. Dulinor's forces halted their advances.

By 1119 all four Vilani megacorporations had successfully liquidated their assets and retreated to Vland sector. Dagudashaag, like most other sectors, was left with a massive economic and industrial vaccuum.

In 1120 Dulinors forces were pushed further back by admiral Wainfrost. Hostilities intensified in Eddum, Argi and Sapphyre subsectors, and new fighting broke out in Old Suns subsector, as clashes between the "Real" Strephon, the Ziru Sirkaa and Lucan spilled over the border from Vland.

Worlds have been laid to waste, billions of people have died and property and equipment for countless billions credits has been destroyed.


Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:54:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

 Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com> wrote:

>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)

A carrot is under EU law.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:04:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton

Fred writes:

>I wasn't sure if you were specifically asking (on TML) about the Solar Queen
>series or all her various series...so here's what I know of her various series
>books:

The Solar Queen in particular... although I have a number of her other books...

>Hosteen Storm Series:
>The Beast Master
>The Lord of Thunder

Hmm, I didn't know about the second one of these...

>Ross Murdock/Time War Series:
>Time Traders
>Galactic Derelict
>The Defiant Agents
>The Key Out of Time
>Firehand (w/P.M. Griffin)

The back of one of her Solar Queen books refered to Galactic Derelict as a
Queen novel?

>The Solar Queen Series:
>Sargasso of Space
>Plague Ship

Sadly missing from my collection.

>Voodoo Planet (usually found in a Ace double with Star Hunter)

Ditto...

>Postmarked the Stars
>Redline the Stars (w/P.M. Griffin)
>Derelict for Trade (w/S. Smith)
>A Mind for Trade (w/S. Smith)
>She's definately been a big
>influence on my Traveller campaign--and if you read the "Solar Queen" series
>and others, I think she was an influence on Traveller itself!

I agree - her books and the Tubbs? ones with Dumarest in.

Sargasso was my first SF novel... shame she's hard to get hold of in the UK
(I end up using an internet bookshop to get them). Cherryh is almost as
hard to get.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:10:31 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 2:29 AM

> >I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the
secret
> >of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why
would
> >I want to read it?
> Umm.. because it's one of the funniest things written in the English
> language in the last thirty years?

	Uuummmm, Doug, are you forgetting who this is?  Its Clif, the man who
flamed all of us & is not attacking a work of litterature.

> Because there's so much more to the whole Ultimate Question than the
Answer?

	Well there is that.

> because it's a book you haven't read?  (That's reason enough for me...)

	Forget it Doug, he ain't listening.  He has watched too much TV & played
to many games of M;tG to be of much use to us.

> Doug Berry

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:27:19 -0500
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Van Rijn Class Freighter

Van Rijn Class Colonial Freighter

This is a TL14 High Guard 2nd Edition design.

MP-54222S1-000000-00000-0 173.5626 MCr  500 tons TL14
Passengers=0. Low=0. Cargo=255. Fuel=110 EP=10 Agility=2

Notes.

This design is a simple Jump-2, 2G starship designed specifically to haul
freight, no passengers.

The ship is designed to be partially streamlined to allow easy gas giant
skimming, with built-in fuel purification added.  Provision is made for 9
crewsophonts: Owner-Aboard, Pilot, Navigator, Medic, 2 Engineers, and 3
optional Gunners.  It is delivered unarmed, but 3 tons of space are
reserved for the fire control circuitry for 3 turrets.  The ship has 3
hardpoints, no added armor.  9 staterooms are availiable for the crew.

The ship carries a Slow Pinace (40tons, 2G) to allow the crew to visit
planetary surfaces easier.  Additionally, 30 of the ship's 255 ton cargo
capacity is carried in the boat during jump.  The pinnace is piloted by
either the pilot of the ship or anybody with Ship's Boat skill.  Its 18
MCr price tag *is* included in the total price, but no discount is given
for it, since the 18 MCr is already discounted.

This ship can be ordered for MCr 34.71252 down, with payments of KCr
723.177/month.  Salaries, assuming full compliment, are 24,500 a month,
life support is 36,000.  1/12th of the annual maintanance is 14,464, for a
total of 820,341 Cr/month.  Revenues of 1000/ton of freight come to
510,000/month, leaving a shortfall of 310,341 a month, or 608 Cr/ton/trip.

Assuming 50% freight and 50% speculative cargo, fully loaded, speculative
cargo must only clear 2217 cr/ton, easy enough if your Owner Aboard is a
Broker-2 or better.


At 174 MCr, the Van Rijn class compares favorably to a stock Free Trader
at 37.08MCr, with a Jump-2 cargo ratio of .68 to the Type A's ratio of
.915, and is a downright steal compared to the Type M liner's Jump-2 cargo
ratio of 1.225!

(Note:  I came up with a 'cargo ratio' to evaluate designs against.  To
get the numbers, divide the list price of the ship by cargo space in
displacement tons.  Multiply this by distance in parsecs, divided by the
ship's maximum jump number.  The lower the number, the more efficient a
freighter you have.  For example, a stock Scout Courier at 2 parsecs has
a cargo ratio of 7.357!!)

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:28:51 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

Forget it.  I ask for some kinda system based on soc status and law level
and I get "role play it."  Why don't I just throw out all of my rule books
(when I get more) and say, "Gee whiz, I think I'll role play it."  That
would be good for business, wouldn't it?

The game would last a long time that way, wouldn't it?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level


>At 12:17 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>That's a cop-out.  I made the post asking for a system, not for the pat
>>answer of "roleplay it."
>
>No, that's the answer.
>
>Say a world is law-level ten, but the family members of the ruling
>oligarchy can get away with murder.  (Example: the families of high party
>members in the USSR).
>
>An Oligarch's son stands the same chance of being arrested for deviant
>decadent behavior, but when they find out who he is (and more importantly,
>who his father is), he'll be released with an apology.
>
>What you as the Referee do is decide to whom the laws don't apply and why.
>Possible reasons are religious, corruption, financial, or some other
>influence.
>
>
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
>- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:30:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

Thanks Dave.  That's what I was looking for.

- --Clif
> I seem to remember one version of Traveller where a character rolled 2d6 vs
>his Social Stauts to "avoid police harassment"  or some such thing.  Sounds
>like the basis for  a system.  Perhaps make characters on Low Law Level
>Planets roll Soc or less on 2d6, Mod law planets on 2.5 or 3d6, High Law
>planets 3d6, 3.5 or 4d6.
>
> Dave Nelson
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:36:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

> Uuummmm, Doug, are you forgetting who this is?  Its Clif, the man who
>flamed all of us & is not attacking a work of litterature.

Oh, right.  And I suppose *I* AM  flaming YOU, again, hunh?  I only asked
why I should read it when I already heard the secret of the universe.  I
think you meant "now" instead of "not"?

>
>> Because there's so much more to the whole Ultimate Question than the
>Answer?
>
> Well there is that.
>
>> because it's a book you haven't read?  (That's reason enough for me...)
>
> Forget it Doug, he ain't listening.  He has watched too much TV & played
>to many games of M;tG to be of much use to us.

Yeah, I remember reading that Hitcher's Guide was a pre-requisite to playing
Traveller.

- --Clif
>
>> Doug Berry
>
>Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
>ICQ # 8973001
>legate@futureone.com
>http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm
>
>"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
>the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
>mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
>of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:42:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

>
>>What do you call the Air Cav? I'm assuming by "independent" you mean that
>>the air support doesn't come from another branch of service.
>
>Helicopters. Not front line fighters and strike aircraft, with dedicated
>aviation roles clearly defined.
>
>The best that the Army can do is the AH-64C.  The USMC has organic F/A-18
>and AV-8B units as part of their commands structure at a far lower level
>that we do.  Army units have to liase with an entirely different branch to
>get air support, and that branch has different priorities.

Okay, but in my book, AH-64's qualify as "air support" when they can pop off
Hellfire's and trash any armor that might be posing a threat.

>
>Anyway, IIRC there's only one Air Cav unit left, the 6th ACCB at Ft. Hood.

What?  You're saying that in 9 years they did away with all of the Air Cav
units except for
one, when I was in one in ALASKA?


- --Clif
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:06:44 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

Purely for amusement.  Here is a bit of a post from another list.  The
discussion is between a guy from Argentina and one from the UK.  The
assessment may be a little unfair, but is funny.

> > it first appeared in the minds of the Argentine officers who
> > discovered that, in the event of a war with Brazil, Great
> > Britain (the country that sold both Arg. and Braz. the
> > Centurion tanks) {could decide who wins by controlling the flow of spare parts - AB}
> >
> Nestor, what kind of fools were these men running your countries? Didn't
> they know that British Centurion tanks are to warfare what Aids is to
> sex? Jesus, the respective armies would never have made it as far as a
> common border to even have a battle. The British centurion tank is the
> strategic reason for the English Channel. The only PUPOSE of the things
> is to trundle up and down Salisbury Plain picnicing between pubs and
> admiring the view; after 15 hours of use the guarantee runs out and all
> you got from Vickers was an instruction manual on turning turrets into
> flower pots.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:29:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

At 06:28 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Forget it.  I ask for some kinda system based on soc status and law level
>and I get "role play it."  Why don't I just throw out all of my rule books
>(when I get more) and say, "Gee whiz, I think I'll role play it."  That
>would be good for business, wouldn't it?

Do me a favor.  Stop asking for advice.  You never take it, and then whine
about us not understanding you.

Traveller law levels are an arbitrary code showing the general level of
official intrusion into people's lives.  If you, as the world-builder, want
a certain class to be immune to those laws, just write it down!

Example:  Tengalia is a Religious dictatorship.  Church officials above a
certain level have nothing to fear from the local law (level: C) as they
are "Venerated Masters", and are assumed to be working under the direct
hand of the deities.  To arrest one of them would be like arresting God!

Example: Novo Leningrad a police state with incredibly repressive laws
(level E).  High Party members and their families (who hold special
passports and ID papers) can openly do things that would get the ordinary
citizens shot.

Example: The United States.  In many cases laws are enforced less harshly
for celebrities than for the common mob.  Witness the number of Hollywood
types who get rehab for possession vs. the number of South Central kids who
get prison time for the same charge.

Amazingly enough, designing and running a Traveller game takes a little
effort and work.  Not everything can be modeled on a die roll.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:32:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

At 10:54 PM 2/21/99 +0000, you wrote:
> Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
>
>A carrot is under EU law.

According to the Reagan Administration, catsup (or ketchup) was considered
a vegetable in school lunches.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:39:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

At 06:36 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Yeah, I remember reading that Hitcher's Guide was a pre-requisite to playing
>Traveller.

That's *Hitchhiker's*.

But to be honest, I would think that reading *some* science-fiction would
be a good idea, and I've mined HHGTTG for several good ideas.  (Residents
of Mora fear the coming of the Perpetual Floating Cocktail Party.)
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:39:35 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

In a message dated 2/21/99 7:37:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 According to the Reagan Administration, catsup (or ketchup) was considered
 a vegetable in school lunches.
 --  >>

And according to the Clinton Administration, salsa is considered a vegetable
in school lunches.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:45:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

At 06:42 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Okay, but in my book, AH-64's qualify as "air support" when they can pop off
>Hellfire's and trash any armor that might be posing a threat.

Which does nil to the enemy artillery, command structure, fuel dumps 30km
behing the FEBA..  The Marines can hit all that, and kill tanks.  That's
air support.  

>>Anyway, IIRC there's only one Air Cav unit left, the 6th ACCB at Ft. Hood.
>
>What?  You're saying that in 9 years they did away with all of the Air Cav
>units except for one, when I was in one in ALASKA?

In nine years they did away with the entire US Army Europe.

The only hit I get on Air Cav on the Army site is: 

http://www.jrtc-polk.army.mil/cav.htm

For the Air Cav Squadron of the 2nd ACR.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:47:07 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In a message dated 2/21/99 7:38:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 Do me a favor.  Stop asking for advice.  You never take it, and then whine
 about us not understanding you.
  >>

	You're being a bit harsh.  Clif's request was a legitimate one.  Sometimes
having a quick rule to determine if your Baron is going to get through a check
point with his hidden stash of microfilm will save aggravation and bad
feeling.   Yes, if it's a major point like a murder trial, it should be role-
played, but if it's a question of traffic tickets, shipping irregularities,
lack of hunting permit etc, a die roll connecting Soc with Law Level will help
you as the referee decide how the role-playying encounter will turn out,
especially if the players have wandered out of a preset, well-developed area. 
	I understood what he was asking for and he thanked me when I tried to give it
to him.   

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:21:27 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>Do me a favor.  Stop asking for advice.  You never take it, and then whine
>about us not understanding you.

Do ME a favor and not answer my posts if you can't give me what I'm looking
for.  I asked for a system, not "roleplay it".  "Roleplay it" is an answer
so in front of our nose's that I wouldn't have come to the list to hear
that, would I?  Dave gave me what I was looking for, showing that someone
COULD.
>
>Traveller law levels are an arbitrary code showing the general level of
>official intrusion into people's lives.  If you, as the world-builder, want
>a certain class to be immune to those laws, just write it down!

If you had read, I didn't say I was WANTing any certain class to be immune.
I was looking for a system that might determine WHO might be immune.
>
>Example:  Tengalia is a Religious dictatorship.  Church officials above a
>certain level have nothing to fear from the local law (level: C) as they
>are "Venerated Masters", and are assumed to be working under the direct
>hand of the deities.  To arrest one of them would be like arresting God!

Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?
>
>Example: Novo Leningrad a police state with incredibly repressive laws
>(level E).  High Party members and their families (who hold special
>passports and ID papers) can openly do things that would get the ordinary
>citizens shot.

Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?
>
>Example: The United States.  In many cases laws are enforced less harshly
>for celebrities than for the common mob.  Witness the number of Hollywood
>types who get rehab for possession vs. the number of South Central kids who
>get prison time for the same charge.

Gee, I wonder whether Robert Downey, Jr. would have a social status score,
if he were an NPC?
>
>Amazingly enough, designing and running a Traveller game takes a little
>effort and work.  Not everything can be modeled on a die roll.

Hence ACQ...  Dave recalled a system like the one I was looking for, so why
don't you counsel someone else with the "one-hand clapping" words "roleplay
it"?  Okay?
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
>Inquisitor Minimus
>Canon Inquistion,
>Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:28:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

Sure, reading some sci-fi might be good.  However, what with school and
running this PBEM, I don't see when I'm supposed to have the time.

- --Clif

>>Yeah, I remember reading that Hitcher's Guide was a pre-requisite to
playing
>>Traveller.
>
>That's *Hitchhiker's*.

You have a very keen sense of the obvious.
>
>But to be honest, I would think that reading *some* science-fiction would
>be a good idea, and I've mined HHGTTG for several good ideas.

I wonder if any popular sci-fi writer just sat down without a daily intake
of someone else's sci-fi and actually visualized and put to paper a world
worthwhile.

I bet someone did.

Some people write what most people consume.  I don't see why I can't write
fresh sci-fi without input and the influence of other writers.  Bill Gates
keeps a virgin staff.  Why can't my campaign be a virgin world, with ideas,
while similar to others in print, envisioned independent of outside
influence?

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #171
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 172



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Above the Law Level 
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Dulinor's views
re: Above the Law Level
Dulinor's views, ideology, ideas, thought, or whatever you want to call them
IIRC
Re: IIRC
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: IIRC
Re: Above the Law Level
[OT] Re: Air Cavalry (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: [OT] Re: Air Cavalry (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Return of sayBOOM
Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/21/99)
OT: How to filter Digests
Re: Starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:31:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Consider yourself fortunate, Dave, that you can get away with posts like
this simply because your name isn't Clif.

- --Clif

>And according to the Clinton Administration, salsa is considered a
vegetable
>in school lunches.
>
> Dave Nelson
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:35:05 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113


>At 06:42 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Okay, but in my book, AH-64's qualify as "air support" when they can pop
off
>>Hellfire's and trash any armor that might be posing a threat.
>
>Which does nil to the enemy artillery, command structure, fuel dumps 30km
>behing the FEBA..  The Marines can hit all that, and kill tanks.  That's
>air support.

When I was in the Air Cav, it was our mission to be behind enemy lines,
Cobras and all.  In Alaska, at "40 below, the Cav goes", it wouldn't take
much to royally fuck up somebody's day, wherever they lived.  Just shoot
holes in their tents and its time to pack up.

>
>>>Anyway, IIRC there's only one Air Cav unit left, the 6th ACCB at Ft. Hood.
>>
>>What?  You're saying that in 9 years they did away with all of the Air Cav
>>units except for one, when I was in one in ALASKA?
>
>In nine years they did away with the entire US Army Europe.
>
>The only hit I get on Air Cav on the Army site is:
>
>http://www.jrtc-polk.army.mil/cav.htm
>
>For the Air Cav Squadron of the 2nd ACR.
>

It's a sad day.  : )

>--

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:11:17 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>Forget it.  I ask for some kinda system based on soc status and law level
>and I get "role play it."  Why don't I just throw out all of my rule books
>(when I get more) and say, "Gee whiz, I think I'll role play it."  That
>would be good for business, wouldn't it?

>
>The game would last a long time that way, wouldn't it?


Man, you look for an argument anywhere you can get it.

*plonk*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:26:12 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> (Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
> structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
> of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically). 

The Delta-X toppled *after a major landing gear failure*. The Eifel
tower will fall over if you dynamite one of the legs. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got decks
perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the pad, some of
it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to thrust (landed VTOL
airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a landing gear failure.

I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you land,
or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more convenient
for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool that way.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:32:38 -0400 (AST)
From: misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Walter G. Smith wrote:

> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you land,
> or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more convenient
> for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool that way.
> 
> Walt Smith

	Hi, Walt....
	I always go on reason #3.  =)
 

	--Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca

		Dad, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:30:07 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/20/99 9:28:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> brclif@digital.net writes:
> 
> << 'm wondering how to make a system where social class can make someone
>  "above the law level".
> 
>  Doesn't seem realistic to only rely on skills and their levels.
> 
>  --Clif
> 
>   >>
>         I seem to remember one version of Traveller where a character rolled 2d6 vs
> his Social Stauts to "avoid police harassment"  or some such thing.  Sounds
> like the basis for  a system.  Perhaps make characters on Low Law Level
> Planets roll Soc or less on 2d6, Mod law planets on 2.5 or 3d6, High Law
> planets 3d6, 3.5 or 4d6.
> 
An interesting twist would be to make it an opposed skill roll, with
uncertain results.  In other words, the law enforcement types try to
roll under Law Level, and the potential harassee try to roll under
Social Standing (modified by whatever modifiers seem appropriate). 
Whichever one makes the skill roll by the most "has initiative" in the
encounter.  F'r instance, Baron von Furstinline (Social Standing of C)
is visiting Terra circa 1100 (Law Level of 9).  Both roll 2d6.  If the
Good Baron makes his roll by more than Chief Inspector Dreyfus, then von
Furstinline is approached, and "his papers are in order."  If Dreyfus
makes her roll by more than the Baron, then Dreyfus notes some
irregularity.  This irregularity will be minor, and will normally result
in no official action (unless, of course, the PC is spooked into
overreacting >;-) .  If one party fails the roll, and the other makes
it, then events move more decisively in that party's favor.  Should
_both_ parties fail the roll, compare the dergree of failure.  If the PC
fails by more than the police, then there is a wrongful arrest, which is
not seen by the authorities as wrongful.  If, OTOH, the police fail by
more than the PC, then there is also a wrongful arrest, _which is
actionable_ as a wrongful arrest.  Can you say "lawsuit"?  (Or, better
yet, the noble PC has friends who can not only get him/her/it out of
trouble, but also end the career [or life] of the poor cop who made the
arrest.)



- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:35:55 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

> Do me a favor.  Stop asking for advice.  You never take it, and then whine
> about us not understanding you.

I thought u plonked him, Doug.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:35:48 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

> What is the name of the Israeli modification of the M1 Abrams?

I don't think they have one, though I might be wrong.  IIRC, aside from their
other acquisitions in armor from various NATO powers, they've focused on their
domestically produced Merkava (the Merkava III is the curent model, w /a 120mm
main gun), which basically sums up the fears they learned in the Yom Kippur
war, in particular.  Fairly formidable, if unconventional design.  A true
"infantry support" tank.  It can carry troops (4 IIRC), has a mortar, etc etc.
It's slow as hell, though, w/ a diesel engine.  Run and gun is how we'd beat
it (assuming we didn't have air trash em).  Course, this is all just
hypothetical. :-)

> The real M1A2 is a "digitized" MBT.  It looks almost the same as the M1A1
> (with an extra thermal sight for the commander) but is radically rewired
> internally.  Instead of lots of separate electronic systems (many of them
> analog) the M1A2 has a digital data bus so that the internal electronics
> can work together and an Inter-Vehicular Information System (IVIS) for
> sharing position information, maps, status reports, orders, etc between
> vehicles.

The only thing on that piece of electronic trash I'd like is the IVIS, which
is very useful.  Everythign else can go.  While I've never done any sort of
operation in one, I've heard nothing but bad about them (mostly from the few
soldiers (drill sgts) attached to the the Marine training company at Ft Knox).
The electronics have a really nasty habit for failure (built by the lowest
bidder and all that) and while an A1 can be fought w/o its electronics (even
w/o power!), the same can't be said of an A2.  Harder to drive, far too
reliant on the electronics.   The mech's say even more vicious things, but
they would. ;-)

> ObTrav: this sort of capability should be totally second nature to high
> tech combat vehicles (and even battledress infantry) in the Third Imperium.
> Unit commanders should be routinely sending digital maps of planned
> actions or movements, checking the status of their subordinates, holding
> briefings over comm links, etc.  When you have a regiment or division
> covering a whole planet, face-to-face meetings will not be practical.

Yeah.  It should be second nature really by late TL-8 or TL9 (10 tops).
Incorporating that would certainly make things easier, though they would have
to train in the "old ways" as auxilliary for the occasions that the high-tech
stuff don't work (for whatever reason).

RCVG says it's usual for an Imperial/Regency Marine Regiment to be given
responsibility for an entire planet (squads or platoons for whole countries),
which results in very low unit density.   For that reason, the Imperial Marine
Grav APC (TL-15) has a full sized, standard computer to tie in all the data
from the units and the "constellation" of orbital surveillance and
communications satellites around any word which has ongoing military
operations.    They're said to "be able to track, access, coordinate, and
route all intelligence, communications, and all command and control
instructions to and from subordinate and superior units."  Must be nice. :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:35:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dulinor's views

> of the debate.  I will say this, though - this is the hardest
> piece of writing I have done in many years; it is not easy making
> a reasoned and convincing argument for a position that one is
> strongly though perhaps not viscerally opposed to in real life.

If you want, I'll play Dulinor-in-disguise.  Or maybe one of his supporters,
if you don't want to give it up.  I've always been sympathetic to his faction
(particularly the line in the Imperial Encyclopedia, ref's section, that says
"Dulinor acted entirely properly, as was his right as an archduke").  Some of
his later decisions (in Survival Margin) seem pretty weird, though its really
ironic that if Virus hasn't been released, he would have won (he got within
two or three jumps of Capital before his whole Coronation Fleet starts going
crazy and malfunctions) the Rebellion (as much as can be said after 14 years
of the 2nd Civil War).

You wanna be Brzk?  Stay with Dulinor (and i'll be the Duke of Verge or
someone).  Or who, in the era of IY 1116, do you most identify your personal
views on the Imperium with?  

I happen to be agree with alot of Dulinor's apparent views of the Imperium.
Especially if you buy M:0, the Imperium was corrupt, if not rotten to the
core, and shouldn't have winked at the petty dictators and megacorp oligarchs
IMO.  It's fall isn't so much a tragedy, in my eyes, when it's looked at that
way (though I almost always get that sense when I read Survival Margin...
damn, i love that book). ;-)

Hmm... if it was me, and I had everythign else in place.  I'd have challenged
the Emperor instead of just shooting him w/o any warning.  The Illelish Guard
would've still taken care of the other guards (or at least saw that they
didn't interfere) and I don't think (or at least I hope not!) that Strephon
was the type to hide behind his wife or daughter.  See if he's got cajones or
not.  :-)  The Aslan don't get pissed off by this, either and Dulinor probably
woudn't have gotten all the bad press from most of the Imperial public.  After
all, it would've been a "noble duel" instead of murder with a cause.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:11:00 -0500
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Above the Law Level

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>Example:  Tengalia is a Religious dictatorship.  Church officials above a
>certain level have nothing to fear from the local law (level: C) as they
>are "Venerated Masters", and are assumed to be working under the direct
>hand of the deities.  To arrest one of them would be like arresting God!

Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?
>>>>>>>>>>
Their Social Status Score might be a little odd. Recall how Muslims used
to treat the mentally ill - they were "touched by God" and were left to
their own devices. Where religion is involved, strict logic often isn't.
(Note: I'm *not* trying to imply that officials of a church are mentally ill!!)
Imagine if to be a high church official on Tengalia you had to take vows
of complete poverty, but (once you achieved a certain level) you could
take what you wanted when you wanted it (but not keep it). Also, imagine 
that being a Church official gave you immunity to secular laws, as long as
you strictly followed unusual church vows. 
Your social standing might be high, but you certainly aren't paying the 
rulebook dictated Cr per month for it...and your social skills, administrative 
skills, and authority outside church matters might be nil. Yes, they won't 
arrest you for walking into a store and taking a handful of emeralds, but they 
might not let you smuggle wine through star port customs. 

I think the point was that there will be societies that arrest and punish
everybody regardless of social level, and societies that let high social
level people get away with things.

I can even imagine societies where high social level people are held to
a higher standard than low social level people...say a Soc 0 thief gets
away with a flogging, while a Soc A person gets imprisoned or worse
(because she is supposed to know better).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:18:35 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dulinor's views, ideology, ideas, thought, or whatever you want to call them

>>is the reason, then what are his views/ideology/beliefs?  Am I not 
>>understanding this correctly?

>There is a difference between _views_ and _ideology_ and
>_espoused_positions_.  Look at any U.S. politician for proof.
>Unofficially, it's a pretty good bet that one of the "orators" in
>the debate is, in fact, Dulinor himself.  I'll even go so far as
>to say that I will be His Grace's alter-ego in this debate.  But
>you don't need to know what is views or ideology are; you need to
>consider his espoused ideas, and that only in the persona context
>of the debate.

I was using the term ideology very loosely.  I was thought you would 
catch my drift.  But obviously not, because no one has answered my 
question.
I'll ask again, using your terminolgy, what are his espoused ideas then?  
Is there any previously written material on this or were you planning on 
writing it yourself?


"Earth First! We can log the rest of the planets later."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:36:52 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: IIRC

What does IIRC stand for?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:47:57 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: IIRC

>What does IIRC stand for?


If I Recall Correctly.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:07:33 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

Now you're talking!  Thanks for the input!

- --Clif

>An interesting twist would be to make it an opposed skill roll, with
>uncertain results.  In other words, the law enforcement types try to
>roll under Law Level, and the potential harassee try to roll under
>Social Standing (modified by whatever modifiers seem appropriate). 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:17:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

>I think the point was that there will be societies that arrest and punish
>everybody regardless of social level,
>
>I can even imagine societies where high social level people are held to
>a higher standard than low social level people...say a Soc 0 thief gets
>away with a flogging, while a Soc A person gets imprisoned or worse
>(because she is supposed to know better).
>
I can imagine such things, too, but I think these are ideals and if
Traveller is pretty much based on Darwinism(is it?), you have to assign a
pecking order to every species.  The nature of government is to govern, and
you need people to govern.  (Even if robots and computers did the governing,
someone would have to program and maintain them--unless, of course, they
started programming and maintaining themselves, ala Terminator)  Those who
govern are usually above the rule systems they set in place, receiving mere
slaps on the wrist for offenses which would put other people in the electric
chair.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:36:20 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

One 'toy' she 
>got was an Imperial 'Right to Bear Arms' sticker on her patent of 
nobility, 
>which meant she could carry just about anything that wasn't milspec any 
where 
>in the Imperium.  Course, that *didn't* apply to her 'retainers' (i.e., 
the 
>*rest* of the party), but she would blow through customs just showing 
her 
>Patent with a needle gun openly showing on her hip...
>
>Keven
>

I had a Baron who did the same thing with a laser carbine...
Loved that permit!
:)


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:42:46 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: IIRC

> What does IIRC stand for?

	If I Recall Correctly or Internet Relay Chat.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack
of French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:41:13 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

>
>>But then it was legal...
>>
>>I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because 
they
>are
>>so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)
>
>
>You roleplay it. No system can give rules for everything, nor should 
it.
>


I've had a Baron stare down a few cops before simply because they didn't 
want to risk the backlash of arresting a visiting noble. On some worlds, 
the law enforcement will "overlook" things for certain levels of society 
on the average. On that encounter, it would have been a task roll using 
the soc as a modifier, but we had much more fun role-playing it. As a 
referee, I am willing to give people much more leeway in attempting 
tasks if the are willing to roleplay it.
Roger 

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:35:21 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Air Cavalry (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:45:03
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113
>

Jumping in in the middle again, per SOP:

>At 06:42 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Anyway, IIRC there's only one Air Cav unit left, the 6th ACCB at Ft. Hood.
>>

The 6th Cavalry Brigade (Air Combat), is a standard US Army corps aviation
brigade that happens to trace its lineage from the 6th Air Cavalry Combat
Brigade of the Vietnam era. The designation is retained for reasons of
history and esprit de corps.

The Air Cavalry is, however, alive and well.

Every division in the United States Army (active and reserve) has an
organic divisional cavalry squadron, and each of these has between two and
four air cavalry troops. The 1-17th Cav (82d Abn Div) and 2-17th Cav (101st
Abn Div (AASLT)) have no organic ground cavalry assets, and so are pure
"air cav" squadrons (although not identified as such).

In addition, all three armored cavalry regiments (2d and 3d -- active; 172d
- -- TNARNG) have organic regimental aviation squadrons (4/2, 4/3, and 4/172,
respectively), consisting of three air cavalry troops, two attack
helicopter troops (AH-64), one assault helicopter troop (UH-60), and
support elements.

Finally, the squadrons of one regiment of attack helicopters (6th) carry
cavalry designations and lineage; besides the 6th Cav Brigade (which
includes two squadrons of the 6th Cav Regiment, to add to the confusion),
there is also the aviation brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division. While not
strictly speaking "air cav" units, you might have a hard time convincing
them to give up their spurs and Stetsons.

Christopher B. Thrash
Major, U.S. Air Cavalry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:22:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Air Cavalry (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

I was in the 4th Squadron of the 9th Cavalry in '89.  Yes, as far as we were
concerned, we were Air Cav and flew the Red and White colors.

- --Clif
>While not
>strictly speaking "air cav" units, you might have a hard time convincing
>them to give up their spurs and Stetsons.
>
>Christopher B. Thrash
>Major, U.S. Air Cavalry
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:56:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Return of sayBOOM

Peter Newman writes:

>>As long as we're being practical & rational, could someone calculate 
>>the number of such people (or at least, say, Str-F/End-F) on Sylea in M:0?
> 
>We could easily calculate the number of Str C  End C individuals at age
>12 as (1/36 x 1/36) = 1/1,296...

This and the rest of the calculations are based on the assumption that the
character generation system produces people who are representative of the
population as a whole, which IMO is a very iffy supposition. I don't even
think it safe to assume that they are representative of the people who
take up the very limited subsection of careers covered by the CGS. At best
it show the subsection of members of these careers who go on to become
adventures.

And, yes, I know that most canonical adventures use NPCs generated by the
CGS, something that is, again IMO, a really big mistake.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:04:11 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (2/21/99)

  Available from:  http://www.titangames.com/

>    (MegaTraveller)
>        The Diaspora Sector (224) [$8.5, VF]
>    (Traveller: The New Era)
>        Traveller: The New Era Rulebook (softbound) (300) [$19.5, VF], [$18, F]
>        Fire, Fusion & Steel (304) [$9, G]
>        Smash & Grab (305) [$10, NM], [$9, VF]
>        Players' Forms (306) [$8, VF]
>        Referee's Screen (307) [$10, NM], [$9, VF]
>        Path of Tears, Star Viking Sourcebook (309) [$15.5, NM]
>        Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide (310) [$15.5, NM]
>        World Tamer's Handbook (311) [$14.5, VF]
>        Vampire Fleets, The Virus Sourcebook (312) [$17, NM]
>        Keepers of the Flame, The Regency Sourcebook (314) [$17, NM]
>        Aliens of the Rim, Hivers and Ithklur (318) [$15.5, NM]
>        Regency Combat Vehicle Guide (320) [$17, NM]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:36:56 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: OT: How to filter Digests

I get the TML in digest form.  In the past when their have been topics I
am not interested I have simply used the page down button.  Recently
their have been some posts, by one author, that are sufficiently
vitriolic that I no longer care to read anything from their author and I
am looking for a way to filter Digests.

I use Netscape 3.0 under Win95 on a Pentium computer.  I would like to
find a simple way to automatically go through all digests as they are
received and delete all of this persons posts while leaving all other
posts in digest form.  I am not interested in buying a new computer or
in changing my operating system.  I am willing to consider changing my
mail program but would prefer not to.  I am not particularly skilled
with computers [Computer 0 in Traveller terms].

Can anyone tell me how I can kill one persons posts out of the digest
please.  It may be that I am not the only person who has an interest in
kill filing someones posting so the answer may help others as well.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:58:43 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starships

Richard Hough wrote:
>The problem is that total automation is less interesting
>dramatically. In this setting, players tended to "ask the computer" how 
to
>solve problems and to send robots into dangerous situations rather than 
go
>themselves. It rewarded characters with the better hardware and made 
the
>players less significant. No matter how "realistic" it may be, I felt 
it
>harmed the enjoyment of the game.

Hey all technical RPGs are prone to this problem, when you can 
pre-select the hardware for a mission. In one (non-traveller) game at my 
games club it got so prevalent that we started to use the expression 
"When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping!".

I agree that *total* automation would get pretty boring, and if you 
allow helpful sentient computers then this diminishes the role of the 
PCs. However if PCs rely on help from non-sentient computers or even 
sentient computers with a non-human centric viewpoint then they are 
looking for trouble.


Leonard Erickson wrote:
>The problem is that robots aren't as flexible/adaptable as humans.
>Also, a robot the shape and size of a human is *weaker* than a human
>until pretty high TLs. Bone is actualy a *lot* stronger than a hunk of
>steel the same size.

There are two arguments here. The real world one that you are referring 
to, and the Gurps robots/computer rules. 

I was originally referring to Gurps Robots & Gurps computer rules. My 
responses are a mixture of the two. 

By G:TL10(CT:TL12) robots are stronger, and even non-sentient are fairly 
autonomous within their defined roles. Gurps computer programs can 
replace most non physical roles without being sentient.

>Cruise missiles are *dumb*. Anything capable of repairing battle damage
>is going to be *smart*. Smart enough that it will both be capable of
>making decisions on its own and smart enough to arguably qualify as
>intelligent life. Which means that you've just replaced one kind of
>crew with another. 

I would have thought a robot with an expert system in "battle damage 
repair" would be able to cope pretty well without being sentient. With a 
full database of previous battle damage incidents and best practice 
repair techniques it should be quicker and better adapted than a human.

With a mixture of a few living-sentient crew and a larger number of 
non-sentient robots this should be more cost effective than living crew 
alone?

>One that's more expensive to produce. :-)

No way. I haven't fully costed my 7 year old daughter 8-) but she comes 
in at way more than a $22,000 Gurps TL10 T-64 Tinkerbot General purpose 
Technical/Engineering robot (9 months lost salary, Nursery fees, ongoing 
care and "maintenance" costs and a lot more to "pay" before she is 
independant...). Even if robots cost ten time the price they would still 
be cheaper. Though I guess some form of communal upbringing would be a 
lot cheaper!

The "lead time" on humans leaves a lot to be desired :)

>Full automation that is "self-directing" gets back to the "they're
>intelligent" bit. It also has the problem that anything flexible enough
>to handle unexpected situations is flexible enough to ignore *any* rule
>when it feels like it.

Well G:T specifically rules out fully sentient robots, so I was not 
proposing these. A military ship with just living command staff end 
everything else robots is doable under G:T rules. Commercial ships 
*could* be totally automated (but boring).

Gurps non-sentient Neural net robots probably come close for most 
purposes.


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #172
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 173



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level 
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: Those who support delusions 
Finding Time (was: Hitchers' Guide)
Re: Hitchers' Guide
re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Those who support delusions
Bribery
[Debate] Rules of Engagement
[Debate] Gallatin 1
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: OT: How to filter Digests
Re: Finding Time (was: Hitchers' Guide)
Re: How to filter Digests
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Finding Time & PDF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:02:07 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Above the Law Level

At 22:11 21/02/1999 -0500, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:

>I think the point was that there will be societies that arrest and punish
>everybody regardless of social level, and societies that let high social
>level people get away with things.

>I can even imagine societies where high social level people are held to
>a higher standard than low social level people...say a Soc 0 thief gets
>away with a flogging, while a Soc A person gets imprisoned or worse
>(because she is supposed to know better).

Of course, real life is more complicated :-)

One item is fines:

In the UK, fining someone 150 is seen as a "slap on the wrist".
If the media wants to it can get run the "judges go easy on crime"
story with the victim "demanding justice".

If you have debts and a discretionary income of about 1/month, then 150
is a lot. If you have 50,000 in the bank and a discreationary income
of 400/month, then it really is nothing.

So a few years back the government changed the rules so that fines were
a percentage of disposable incomes.

The complaints caused by 1,000 motoring offenses vs 200 for assault
totally miss the point (of course). As did people who didn't complete
the forms correctly and were assesed as having the default income (25K
or whatever). The changes were soon withdrawn.

===

These give a couple of options - one is the "fair" system where fines
are on a scale of Cr2^SOC and "justice" systems where fines are on a
fixed scale (Cr100 on a poor world, Cr10K on a rich world :-)

There is also the question of how players are assessed - an assumption
of 1% profit on assets might be inconvienient for your cash strapped
merchant (your merchants are all cash strapped, aren't they?)

And what is the penalty for not declaring all their income so enable their
fines to be properly assessed?

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:17:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

At 08:21 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>Example:  Tengalia is a Religious dictatorship.  Church officials above a
>>certain level have nothing to fear from the local law (level: C) as they
>>are "Venerated Masters", and are assumed to be working under the direct
>>hand of the deities.  To arrest one of them would be like arresting God!
>
>Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?

Maybe, maybe not.  What is the Soc of a buddhisy monk?

>>Example: Novo Leningrad a police state with incredibly repressive laws
>>(level E).  High Party members and their families (who hold special
>>passports and ID papers) can openly do things that would get the ordinary
>>citizens shot.
>
>Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?

sure, but let's see what happenes when Baron Henrich vonAttaboy tries to
throw his weight around before a People's Tribunal.  "You are a noble? Gut.
 We arrest you more you bourgeois oppresor of the common proletariat!"

>>Example: The United States.  In many cases laws are enforced less harshly
>>for celebrities than for the common mob.  Witness the number of Hollywood
>>types who get rehab for possession vs. the number of South Central kids who
>>get prison time for the same charge.
>
>Gee, I wonder whether Robert Downey, Jr. would have a social status score,
>if he were an NPC?

Maybe, maybe not, considering that fame is very transitory, and most of the
light sentences tend to come in New York and California.  Mike Tyson is
world famous, and very rich, but he's doing time for simple assault.

>>Amazingly enough, designing and running a Traveller game takes a little
>>effort and work.  Not everything can be modeled on a die roll.
>
>Hence ACQ...  Dave recalled a system like the one I was looking for, so why
>don't you counsel someone else with the "one-hand clapping" words "roleplay
>it"?  Okay?

ACQ is designed for a specific thing that needs detail, combat.  Designing
a world's legal system should not be left to random die rolls, but
carefully thought out.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:26:48 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

At 21:26 21/02/1999 -0500, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> (Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
>> structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
>> of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically). 
>
>The Delta-X toppled *after a major landing gear failure*. The Eifel
>tower will fall over if you dynamite one of the legs. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got decks
>perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the pad, some of
>it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to thrust (landed VTOL
>airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a landing gear failure.

IIRC the delta clipper a rocket and doesn't appreciate having the rocket
nozzles too near the ground.

A trav ship with contra grav doen't have this problem and can either
rest on the CG plates or with them about 5cm from the ground.

If the landing gear fails then it won't topple.

If it is so tall that 5cm is enough to make it topple, then consider
the ground pressure and tell me if this ship should really be
landing on a planet.

In any case, use a flying saucer design instead :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:35:06 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

t
>>A carrot is under EU law.
>
>According to the Reagan Administration, catsup (or ketchup) was considered
>a vegetable in school lunches.

And maple syrup is considered "pure" if it contains 10% real maple syrup
(the rest can be corn syrup).  Reagan's answer to acid rain...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:48:01 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Finding Time (was: Hitchers' Guide)

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>Sure, reading some sci-fi might be good.  However, what with school and
>running this PBEM, I don't see when I'm supposed to have the time.

Put a stack of books by your toilet, by your bed, and on your breakfast
table. Mount a bookholder on your vacuum cleaner. Read a paragraph or two
at a time.

Seriously, that's what I do. Works as long as my work week stays under 60
hours (70 hours with travel time).

OK, I was exaggerating about the vacuum cleaner. The rest is when I read
fiction, though.


>Some people write what most people consume.  I don't see why I can't write
>fresh sci-fi without input and the influence of other writers.  Bill Gates
>keeps a virgin staff.  Why can't my campaign be a virgin world, with
>ideas,
>while similar to others in print, envisioned independent of outside
>influence?

You can, and it can.

Just don't be surprised when you come up with a great new idea, and people
say "we saw that years ago". Happens all the time with Microsoft. At
least, those of us with Macs saw most 'new' Microsoft ideas years ago.  :-)

This isn't a slam at you. Although I haven't recommended any reading
myself (because others have given you a good list), I _do_ strongly
suggest finding the time to read the 'classics'. Partly this is to save
you time reinventing the wheel, although if you _like_ inventing wheels
then this isn't an issue. But the other part is that there are some ideas
that have been done so well, or so often, that there is little to add.
Stan Schmidt has a list of stories that he gets every month, all original,
yet all of ideas so common that there is nothing new in them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:10:34 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

At 09:42 PM 2/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't want the suicidal robot to put me over the edge.  : )
>
>I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the secret
>of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why would
>I want to read it?
>
>--Clif
>
>

Actually the ANSWER to 'life, the universe, and everthing' is 42.  You read
the book to find out the question and how it is answered.  (Grin!)

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:44:21 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Above the Law Level

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I can even imagine societies where high social level people are held to
>a higher standard than low social level people...say a Soc 0 thief gets
>away with a flogging, while a Soc A person gets imprisoned or worse
>(because she is supposed to know better).
>
I can imagine such things, too, but I think these are ideals and if
Traveller is pretty much based on Darwinism(is it?), you have to assign a
pecking order to every species.  The nature of government is to govern, and
you need people to govern.  (Even if robots and computers did the governing,
someone would have to program and maintain them--unless, of course, they
started programming and maintaining themselves, ala Terminator)  Those who
govern are usually above the rule systems they set in place, receiving mere
slaps on the wrist for offenses which would put other people in the electric
chair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We've had societies like this already on Earth, Clif.

England, a hundred years ago or so. A tradesman accuses another
tradesman of cheating at cards, one or the other gets a knuckle 
sandwich and they're done with it. A gentleman accuses another
gentleman of the same offense, the cheating gentleman (or the
wrongful accuser) gets a sword put in his gut by the other.

(Duelling. If you win, you must have been in the right. <G>)

Refuse the duel, lose prestige, and position in society, and business
connections, and wealth, etc...

Today, USA. A Gas Station Attendant has a consensual affair with
a part-time cashier, him and his wife settle it. The President has a
consensual affair with a member of the part-time help, he ends up in
a tangle that puts him on trial in front of the world. 

Granted, the bigwigs often skirt the law...but they are also often held
up to high standards, at least publicly.

Also, consider that in a future society law enforcement officers and
interested members of the public may have no difficulty proving that
an offense was committed. Who would get a bigger penalty for cowardice
in the face of the enemy: a private in charge of one laser rifle, or a
general in charge of the entire world's defense?

With greater power may eventually come greater responsibility and
greater accountability. Yup, it is a tad idealistic, but why not someday?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:15:17 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

From: Douglas E. Berry 
> >>Example:  Tengalia is a Religious dictatorship.  Church officials above
a
> >>certain level have nothing to fear from the local law (level: C) as
they
> >>are "Venerated Masters", and are assumed to be working under the direct
> >>hand of the deities.  To arrest one of them would be like arresting
God!
> >
> >Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.  What is the Soc of a buddhisy monk?

It depends.  Are we talking about the Dalai Lama, or just any old monk?

In other words, yes, they do.  It varies by their position within the
hierarchy, as well as the society in which they are.  A monk in the US
probably wouldn't be anyone special, but an abbot in 'old' Tibet was a
bigshot.  Then there's the habit in some buddhist countries of males
spending a couple of years as monks, before returning to the world.  The
social status of such a monk would be pretty average, although if they were
someone important 'outside' they might or might not get some kind of
special treatment.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:58:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

steve daniels wrote:

> IIRC, vegetable like because it doesn't grow from the blossom
> of a flower.  Fruit like because it contains seeds.

Actually, no, Bloo..it is a fruit. It _does_ grow from the blossom of a
flower. 

Besides, pineapple and ham are good on a pizza...it's octopus I can't stand...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:02:25 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bribery

Those are some pretty good suggestions for being 'above the law'.  Now 
how about a system for bribery.  It would probably be easier to make a 
bribe on higher law level worlds but would cost more.  I would think the 
opposite to be true on low law level worlds.  What would be a good way 
to represent this on a task roll?  Difficulty and amount of money should 
be based on what is supposed to be overlooked.

The game CORPS has an excellent system to rate crimes.  I was planning 
on adapting this to MTU.  Has anyone esle done this?  Any words of 
advice?

BTW, TY for the IIRC responses.  ;)


"Earth First! We can log the rest of the planets later."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:12:23 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

I would appreciate it if the participants in the In-Persona Debate would 
identify their posts with the string "[Debate]" in the subject line, 
followed by the persona name and sequence number - e.g., "[Debate] 
Arbellatra 1".  Optionally, follow that by the name and sequence number 
that your post is a response to: "[Debate] Soegz 4 resp Tukera 2".  This 
will make it easier to sequence the posts later, for the archive.

- -- 
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller (http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller)
freetrav@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:14:25 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Debate] Gallatin 1

Toward an Imperium for the People

"Gallatin"

The history of the Imperium is one of both peace and stability, and 
conflict and instability.  Throughout that thousand-plus years, however, 
one feature stands out above all others: The Imperium exists for the 
benefit of the megacorporate interests trading between the Member 
Worlds, not for the benefit of those worlds themselves, nor for the 
benefit of the citizens of the Imperium who live on these worlds.

What _is_ the Imperium, to most?  It is a distant abstraction, that has 
no perceptible effect on their lives.  The Imperium does not "interfere" 
in the "internal governance" of the Member Worlds, allowing them to 
maintain oppressive conditions against their people in some cases, or to 
continue "benign" neglect of their needs in others.  There is no reason 
for the people to look to the Imperium, to say with pride, "I am a 
citizen of the Imperium, and my world is an Imperial world."  Instead, 
we see people identifying with their own regions, their own worlds, 
their own races - "I am Vilani."  "I am Jonkereen." "I am from 
Prometheus." "I am from Vilis."  

The people do not identify with the Imperium because they see no benefit 
from the Imperium.  In the abstract, they understand some of the 
benefits of the Imperium - protection against incursion by the Vargr or 
Aslan or Zhodani or Solomani militant rebels, the economic benefits of 
the free trade fostered by the Imperium, and so on - but little of this 
actually affects most citizens of the Imperium on a day-to-day basis.

Can the Imperium survive a fundamental crisis?  The Civil War of the 
600s was the most serious crisis that the Imperium has faced, and 
survived it intact.  Yet, at that time, the conditions facing the 
Imperium were different.  The Imperium had just defeated a Zhodani-led 
coalition; neither the Zhodani nor the Vargr represented a serious 
threat.  There was no hostile Solomani Sphere to contend with. And there 
were no divergent interests within the Imperium; there was a commonality 
of purpose in integrating the Imperium into a whole.  The entire Civil 
War can be viewed as "normal" political intrigue, although perhaps a bit 
bloodier than the norm.

The Imperium no longer has that commonality of purpose.  The rimward 
domains have a natural interest in protection from the Solomani and the 
Aslan, while the area "behind the claw" has an equal interest in 
protection from the Zhodani, and the coreward areas from the Vargr.  The 
trailing areas are interested in expansion further trailing, and have 
concerns about K'kree or Hivers.  The Imperial core and the areas 
bordering the Great Rift are increasingly isolationist, and concerned 
with local problems, which the Imperium refuses to address, as being 
local or internal matters.  Were simultaneous attacks on two fronts to 
happen, would the Imperium be able to pull together to meet the threat?  
Were an internal crisis to develop, such as the death of an Emperor 
without a clear heir, would the Imperium survive its own internal 
stresses?

It is only in unity that such a threat can be met, or even prevented.  
The unity that we have in name, but do not have in fact.  The unity that 
can be generated only by drastic changes in the way the Imperium relates 
to its member worlds.  It is time for the Imperium to abandon its 
hands-off policy with respect to local governments; to actively engage 
the local governments and the people of the Member Worlds in making 
their lives better; to be more responsive to the needs and desires of 
those same Worlds and those same people.

This will not be an easy change. It will involve major changes in the 
attitudes of much of the Imperial nobility, and may require that 
unresponsive nobles be relieved of their titles and responsibilities, 
and those given to others who can be counted on to work with the new 
order.  It will involve the restructuring - by force if necessary - of 
unrepresentative or oppressive governments of Member Worlds.  And it 
will require the devolution of some authority to lower levels, where 
responses to changing conditions can be made more quickly.  These 
changes must come from the top; there is little incentive for the Member 
Worlds to surrender sovereignty as would be required, and little 
incentive for the lower nobles to give up their power and prerogatives.  
Perhaps these arguments apply to the top levels as well - but it is only 
those top levels who can be expected to look to the benefit of the 
Imperium as a whole, and to decide wisely to that benefit.  Time grows 
short: We cannot know what may trigger the internal stresses into 
outright breaks, so we must act quickly to reduce those stresses, and 
bind the Imperium into a stronger whole.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:29:28 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> And according to the Clinton Administration, salsa is considered a vegetable
> in school lunches.

At least it has more vegetables than ketchup.  :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:38:25 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: How to filter Digests

Peter Newman wrote:

> Can anyone tell me how I can kill one persons posts out of the digest
> please.  It may be that I am not the only person who has an interest in
> kill filing someones posting so the answer may help others as well.

I don't think there is anyway to do this in the digest at all, since you get one
mail that comprises the ptherwise individual posts.

If you were receiving the undigested form, as I am, its a simple matter to
set a mail filter to file all mail according to different criteria.  For
instance, I have 2 TML filters.

Filter one files any message with "traveller@mpgn.com" in the sender
to my TML folder.  Filter two moves a certain individuals posts directly
to my Trash folder.  I just set the filter to file mail from
"bif@annoyingperson.com" to the trash folder.

Of course, I remove my trash each mail session.

You can't imagine how peaceful the TML has been since I did that.
I mean, there are real posts that are on-topic.

:-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:47:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Finding Time (was: Hitchers' Guide)

Rob Prior wrote:

[quoting someone to start with]

> >Some people write what most people consume.  I don't see why I can't write
> >fresh sci-fi without input and the influence of other writers.  Bill Gates
> >keeps a virgin staff.  Why can't my campaign be a virgin world, with
> >ideas,
> >while similar to others in print, envisioned independent of outside
> >influence?
>
> You can, and it can.
>
> Just don't be surprised when you come up with a great new idea, and people
> say "we saw that years ago". Happens all the time with Microsoft. At
> least, those of us with Macs saw most 'new' Microsoft ideas years ago.  :-)

Too true.  There are no new plots.  There are a couple of different works
that attempt to codify the possible plots.  A very comprehensive one,
albeit with many now obscure references, is

The Thrity-Six Dramatic Situations by Georges Polti

There is another modern book, not really worth much, called 20 Master Plots.
IIRC, G.B.Shaw also wrote something on this topic.

Let me amend my statement above:

The only new plots are in 101 Plots.

:-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:40:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: How to filter Digests

If in Outlook Express... Tools/Inbox Assistant/Add/Fill in the From box with
my email address/Check the Account box/Check the Do Not Download from Server
box

Hit Apply, then Ok, or just Ok, whatever.

- --Clif
>Can anyone tell me how I can kill one persons posts out of the digest
>please.  It may be that I am not the only person who has an interest in
>kill filing someones posting so the answer may help others as well.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:50:57 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> steve daniels wrote:
>
> > IIRC, vegetable like because it doesn't grow from the blossom
> > of a flower.  Fruit like because it contains seeds.
>
> Actually, no, Bloo..it is a fruit. It _does_ grow from the blossom of a
> flower.

I'll take your word for it, but when I was in school, they said it was both
a fruit and a vegetable.  Guess I don't know what characteristics are
"vegetile."

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:45:28 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

>TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
>
>> While I'm in the USMC, I learned the basics of the US Army's doctrine at the
>> US Army Armor Center in Ft Knox, Ky when I was getting tanker training.
>> Basically, it's centered around the tank (the M1A1, in particular,
>>though A2s
>> are about 1/3 of the batallions IIRC).
>
>M2A2...i didn't know that was a real tank, I remember seeing in my old
>twilight 2k
>book and thinking that it was some sorta projection or extrapolation.  the
>twilight 2k book shows a weird looking picture and mentions something about a
>casemate (unmanned) turret
>
>perhaps you could enlighten me

Actually Chris, the above poster was referring to the M1A2 which has been
described elsewhere.  The M2A2 and M2A3 are later generation (than the M2A1
or just M2) Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFV) which, along with the
M3A2 and M3A3 Cavalry fighting vehicles are described and pictured at;

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/index.html

A site which will give you generally more information than you really want
about all modern land defense systems in the U.S. Inventory.

Oh, and they are not tanks, though they've been known to play ones on TV News;)

Pete




                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:51:20 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>>Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?
>
>Maybe, maybe not.  What is the Soc of a buddhisy monk?

Who knows, but if he is an NPC or a PC, he has a social status score.
>
>>>Example: Novo Leningrad a police state with incredibly repressive laws
>>>(level E).  High Party members and their families (who hold special
>>>passports and ID papers) can openly do things that would get the ordinary
>>>citizens shot.
>>
>>Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?
>
>sure, but let's see what happenes when Baron Henrich vonAttaboy tries to
>throw his weight around before a People's Tribunal.  "You are a noble? Gut.
> We arrest you more you bourgeois oppresor of the common proletariat!"
>
Who is the Law on that planet?  If the common proletariat has put down the
previous regime, then has the law level changed?  There is still a law level
vs. social status relationship going on there that I think could be
codified.

>>>Example: The United States.  In many cases laws are enforced less harshly
>>>for celebrities than for the common mob.  Witness the number of Hollywood
>>>types who get rehab for possession vs. the number of South Central kids
who
>>>get prison time for the same charge.
>>
>>Gee, I wonder whether Robert Downey, Jr. would have a social status score,
>>if he were an NPC?
>
>Maybe, maybe not, considering that fame is very transitory, and most of the
>light sentences tend to come in New York and California.

He would still have a social status score.  Celebrities in this country are
the nobility.  I'd rather meet Natalie Merchant than any politician or
over-the-seas royalty you could name any day.

> Mike Tyson is
>world famous, and very rich, but he's doing time for simple assault.
>
>>>Amazingly enough, designing and running a Traveller game takes a little
>>>effort and work.  Not everything can be modeled on a die roll.
>>
>>Hence ACQ...  Dave recalled a system like the one I was looking for, so
why
>>don't you counsel someone else with the "one-hand clapping" words
"roleplay
>>it"?  Okay?
>
>ACQ is designed for a specific thing that needs detail, combat.

Oh, so you get to decide what needs detail and what doesn't and we should
just accept your decree without thinking about it, ourselves?  Hail ArchDuke
Doug!

>  Designing
>a world's legal system should not be left to random die rolls, but
>carefully thought out.
>--

One could say that designing a WORLD shouldn't be left to random die rolls.
You're making statements which are only a matter of opinion.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:55:40 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

Oh, by the way, Rob.  I downloaded Acrobat Reader just so I could read 102
Vehicles.  It looks like a great supplement!  Any chance of adding some
pictures to it in the future?

Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #173
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 174



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement
Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
re: Above the Law Level
Re: Those who support delusions
There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
High Standards (was re: Above the Law Level)
M2A3 and M3A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle Systems (BFVS) (http://www.fas.org/man/d
Off topic: Bad Equipment
Re: [Debate] Gallatin 1
Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Bradley vs M113
Donosev work in progress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:08:22 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

Freelance Traveller wrote:

> I would appreciate it if the participants in the In-Persona Debate would
> identify their posts with the string "[Debate]" in the subject line,
> followed by the persona name and sequence number - e.g., "[Debate]
> Arbellatra 1".  Optionally, follow that by the name and sequence number
> that your post is a response to: "[Debate] Soegz 4 resp Tukera 2".  This
> will make it easier to sequence the posts later, for the archive.

Oy veh.  I won't even pretend to be able to keep up with that kind of thing.

I understand it may be very convenient for you.  But, I probably won't even
read the post if it says something like what you suggest.  I don't have
enough
MT knowledge or materials to participant in any knowledgeable way,
so, the more complicated, the more I lose interest.

A couple of thoughts:

Considering the intensive posting nature of the TML, each post will generate

so many reponses, and those responses will get responses, that you'll have a

huge geometrically expanding tree of posts.  A daunting task to integrate
and
keep straight.

Since it seems to me that what you want is similar to the kinds of public
debates that went on around the time of the American Revolution, with
pseudonyms, pamphlets, etc.,  I think you might be better off using a
web page system to post coherent responses.  For example: first,
Dulinor-In-Disguise posts Comment I.  Its on a webpage and the TML.
TML will by its very nature generate many picemeal responses and
healthy discussion.  Someone will post a full Response I.  (There may be
several).
(By full response, I mean a coherent reply that doesn't quote and respond to

pieces of the previous post).  These kind of full responses could then be
posted
to the webpage, so that on the webpage, you get a collection of statements
from the various viewpoints.  That site could be spiced up with juicy quotes

from the discussion on TML.

That way, at least on the website, you have editorial control and can keep
the quality high by pulling the signals out of the noise (even with this
lists
high signal to noise ratio).


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:01:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: [OT] tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>Actually Chris, the above poster was referring to the M1A2 which has been
>described elsewhere.  The M2A2 and M2A3 are later generation (than the M2A1
>or just M2) Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (IFV) which, along with the
>M3A2 and M3A3 Cavalry fighting vehicles are described and pictured at;
>
>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/index.html
>
>A site which will give you generally more information than you really want
>about all modern land defense systems in the U.S. Inventory.
>
>Oh, and they are not tanks, though they've been known to play ones on TV News;)
>
>Pete

Thanks for sending that link. Now I have at least a chance of following
some of these military topics. I have not been in the military and
have had little interest in modern warfare (until the players in my
Traveller game started out as retired militaries. This site is going
to be very helpful. 

Thanks
Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:06:53 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

>The President has a
>consensual affair with a member of the part-time help, he ends up in
>a tangle that puts him on trial in front of the world.
>

But my hard-earned tax money doesn't go to the Gas Station Attendant so that
he can inseminate the Oval Office carpet.

>Granted, the bigwigs often skirt the law...but they are also often held
>up to high standards, at least publicly.
>

And where was said person held up to any high standard?  I bet he could get
away with it a second time, now that American women have decided its okay to
lie about sex.  (After all, they'd lie to their husbands to get a crack at
the Prez.  Women find power so intoxicating.  They ought to take up
marksmanship, instead.)

>Also, consider that in a future society law enforcement officers and
>interested members of the public may have no difficulty proving that
>an offense was committed. Who would get a bigger penalty for cowardice
>in the face of the enemy: a private in charge of one laser rifle, or a
>general in charge of the entire world's defense?

And I'm saying that the general, if he was a college buddy of the Prez,
might be above the law.  The powers that be could kill the story.  Or he
wouldn't even get so much as a censure thanks to some legal loophole that
two opposing attorneys found as they had martinis over lunch.
>
>With greater power may eventually come greater responsibility and
>greater accountability. Yup, it is a tad idealistic, but why not someday?
>
When I was a kid in school that is what we were told things were like in
government, but now I wonder if it was ever that way.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:17:45 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

Clif posted:
>
>>I think the point was that there will be societies that arrest and punish
>>everybody regardless of social level,
>>
>>I can even imagine societies where high social level people are held to
>>a higher standard than low social level people...say a Soc 0 thief gets
>>away with a flogging, while a Soc A person gets imprisoned or worse
>>(because she is supposed to know better).
>>
>I can imagine such things, too, but I think these are ideals and if
>Traveller is pretty much based on Darwinism(is it?), you have to assign
a
>pecking order to every species.  The nature of government is to govern,
and
>you need people to govern.  (Even if robots and computers did the
governing,
>someone would have to program and maintain them--unless, of course,
they
>started programming and maintaining themselves, ala Terminator)  Those
who
>govern are usually above the rule systems they set in place, receiving
mere
>slaps on the wrist for offenses which would put other people in the
electric
>chair.

Ah, but the one set of laws *no one* is above is the laws of physics. Add
to this the philosophy of fanaticism and no one is safe unless they
themselves wish to live a very constricted life. I'll bet on the fanatic
assassin over money and political power anyday. *That's* the reason
behind
the "right to bear arms" in the U.S. Constitution.

BTW, folks, Clif's scenario was documented this morning in the Dallas
Morning
News. Apparently, a certain tycoon in Hong Kong will *not* be prosecuted
by the
Chinese government for crimes due to the "danger of her companies
failing".

Yeah, right.

- ----------------
David Smart

"Intelligent people can be reasoned with.
 Fanatics can be manipulated.
 It's the smart fanatic that scares the hell outa me." 

 - Sir Daven Hevelin, O.D., Baronet of Fulacin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:18:29 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Above the Law Level

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?
>
>sure, but let's see what happenes when Baron Henrich vonAttaboy tries to
>throw his weight around before a People's Tribunal.  "You are a noble? Gut.
> We arrest you more you bourgeois oppresor of the common proletariat!"
>
Who is the Law on that planet?  If the common proletariat has put down the
previous regime, then has the law level changed?  There is still a law level
vs. social status relationship going on there that I think could be
codified.
>>>>>>>>>>>
All of the above may be true, but I think you missed the point - a PC's
social standing from off-planet may mean diddly to those in power on-planet,
while natives (with social standings no one a parsec away gives a damn
about) may have local power over life and death. Details like this, which
IMO will be pretty common, make a straight Soc vs something test a
less useful tool.

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, so you get to decide what needs detail and what doesn't and we should
just accept your decree without thinking about it, ourselves?  Hail ArchDuke
Doug!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Clif would have to be Emperor to declare an Archduke. We know he isn't,
as he's already proclaimed himself a god. <weg>

If Doug decides detail isn't important and you do, then write it yourself.
Doug's reasons for not detailing it may make sense, so have a listen...
if you decide his reasons make sense you'll save yourself some work.
Needless detail (or detail that you have to tweak to death anyway) keeps
you from working on the important things in a campaign.

Doug has a right to his opinions, Clif...including whatever opinion of you
he's forming from your careful, reasoned responses to him. <G>

Clif again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>  Designing
>a world's legal system should not be left to random die rolls, but
>carefully thought out.
>--

One could say that designing a WORLD shouldn't be left to random die rolls.
You're making statements which are only a matter of opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is one matter - roleplaying a contest against an atmosphere is
generally not as interesting as roleplaying a contest against the local
police, customs inspectors, investigators, high justice nobles, etc...

Traveller is a work of fiction. Everything about it, from which hard sciences
to ignore to how many dice to use is "only a matter of opinion".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:20:22 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Gee, Bloo.  What was it you were saying about "peace" and "on-topic" posts?

- --Clif

>> Actually, no, Bloo..it is a fruit. It _does_ grow from the blossom of a
>> flower.
>
>I'll take your word for it, but when I was in school, they said it was both
>a fruit and a vegetable.  Guess I don't know what characteristics are
>"vegetile."
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:24:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

>Too true.  There are no new plots.

Yeah, yeah, I've read "Ecclesiastes".

There IS a difference between USA channel sci-fi movies and visionary sci-fi
like "The 5th Element", which I saw last week.  How about those guns that
Gary Oldman was selling?  Woowee!  Even made a cool whirring sound as it
ventilated the place.

>  There are a couple of different works
>that attempt to codify the possible plots.

Thanks for those references.  They sound like good leads.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:30:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

In response to the SOC vs Law Level rules request, I have a proposal 
based on MT rules:

To avoid legal entanglements
ROUTINE, Soc, Liaison OR Admin, [TIME VARIABLE]
Notes:  The difficulty above is based on Low Law worlds.  Decrease 
the difficulty by one for No Law, and increase difficulty by one per 
law code higher than Low Law.  Privileged classes decrease difficulty 
by one step, while protected classes (permits, appropriate social 
status on some worlds, etc) decrease difficulty by two or more steps. 
 (This is based on world/cultural concepts.)  Suspicious activity, 
extenuating circumstances, and violent environment each increase the 
difficulty by one.  Likewise, non-violent activity and environment 
can decrease the difficulty by one level.

While it may not be what you're looking for, it's a suggestion of a 
place to start.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:35:28 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: High Standards (was re: Above the Law Level)

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The President has a
>consensual affair with a member of the part-time help, he ends up in
>a tangle that puts him on trial in front of the world.
>

But my hard-earned tax money doesn't go to the Gas Station Attendant so that
he can inseminate the Oval Office carpet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thus a reason for a President to be held to a higher standard than the
Gas Station Attendant. Right or wrong, a society may see things this way.
Add in some kind of technology that makes truth easy to discover
(like Pipers Veridicator(sp?) device from the Fuzzy series) and keepers
of the public trust may be holdable to whatever standards the people
deem appropriate. 

Imagine the trap a government could place itself in, if it lacked a few of
the rights we in the USA assume (esp rights against self-incrimination).
The gov't makes insistences on high moral standards, then someone
introduces a technology that allows these moral standards to be strictly
enforced. The gov't can't block use of the technology without losing
the moral high ground that gives them validity as government, so they
find themselves forced to behave as they've been pretending to behave.
What a perfect fate for hypocrites...<eg>

I recall a book, _Hell's Pavement_ by Damon Knight (IIRC). Someone
developed a mind control machine, of course only to be used with the
subject's consent. Judges used it to make themselves be impartial in
court. Reporters used it to make themselves maintain professional
standards. Married couples used it to enforce their wedding vows.
If you haven't noticed yet, the book's title refers to the asphalt used for
the pavement on the road to Hell - Good Intentions.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:57:13 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: M2A3 and M3A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle Systems (BFVS) (http://www.fas.org/man/d

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Did they accidentally put a picture of an M113 on this page?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:47:39 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic: Bad Equipment

Ian or Katts  wrote:

>>Go on then - point out the advantages of the BMP-1 or -2 over the M2,
>>and then look at the list of disadvantages.
>
>For the cost of one M2, you can buy a *lot* of BMP-2s. Probably three, plus
>a little timeshare on a ground-attack airraft or a tank.

Great. You too could drive a clunker.

>>Yep, height is about the only thing a BMP has over a Bradley. Obtained
>>at the cost of a chronic MANPRINT failure in the rear of the vehicle
>>(have you ever *seen* a BMP up close) and a worthless turret. Oh, did I
>>point out the piss-poor fuel tank location too?
>
>Profile is, in my opinion, the single most important thing you can have in
>a modern battlefield.

So why is everyone moving out of the tank destroyer / turretless tank
field into medium tanks with their inherently higher profile?

>>Bridges, either existing or manufactured. The only time it's worth
>>swimming a vehicle is when it's assaulting from the sea. And even then,
>>it's not that bright. Ask a US Marine how much they like riding in the
>>LVTP-7.
>
>Cool. So if we can zero the artillery on the bridge, we can keep the
>Yankees on their side of the river.

Remind me which side was going to do the advancing in a central-front
scenario?

>>Bad use of their kit by the Russians does not make US kit poor.
>
>In my opinion, this tendency brings into question the whole point of IFVs.
>If they are too vulnerable to fight in, and too expensive to leave in
>reserve, what do you do with them ?

Fight properly with them.

>>Of course, a M-113 would be lagging way behind the tanks (if the tanks
>>are using their superior speed), or dragging the speed of operations
>>(and thus the operational and tactical mobility) down with it.
>
>The most optimistic advance rates of a modern army against opposition are
>tens of kilometers per day.

That's an averaged rate, and wasn't borne out that well in Desert Storm.
Even if we assume near-parity between forces, your `10km a day' might
need to be done in a small window of opportunity at 50kph, not trundling
along at half that.

>>And what if you're caught in a M-113? At least you have some chance in a
>>M2. In an M-113, the enemy rounds are coming through the sides and you
>>have *one* M-2 MG to return fire with - if anyone can poke their head
>>out the hatch. 
>>
>
>You die with the knowledge that a you died in a hundred thousand dollar
>coffin, not a two million dollar coffin.

Bargain. Remind me which is easier to replace - a track or a trained
soldier?

>>>Dont try to do it all in one platform.
>>
>>if you need them all, and you can't afford one of each - get the best
>>compromise.
>
>I bet you can buy two M113s and two M113s with TOW for the cost of one M2.

And I bet you'd then leave all your infantry and all your ATGMs behind
when the tanks move out.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:28:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Gallatin 1

Freelance Traveller wrote:
> 
> Toward an Imperium for the People
> 
> "Gallatin"
> 
> The history of the Imperium is one of both peace and stability, and
> conflict and instability.  

'Thucydides'

Gallatin would have an Imperium that interfered with the affairs of
individual worlds, that ran the very lives of the people it is presuming
to protect.

Gallatin forgets, that this was done before, that the entire history of
the First Imperium was a long, stifling attempt to to administer each
world as part of a unified whole, as he would.

The result of that was a rigid tyranny, that determined the very lives
of each and every subject of a god-like Emperor. It was a structure that
lasted for thousands of years, yet collapsed as though a rotten tree, at
the first puny push from the outside.

Cleon the First, in his wisdom, saw that such control was impossible
over interstellar distances without resorting to opressive tyranny. he
saw that the only path to a free, open Imperium lay in a policy of
protecting the member worlds from without, that they may forge their own
destiny free from threat of invason and subjugation.

Let us remember that the present Imperium, which has withstood events
that would have torn other empires asunder, has stood, simply because it
promotes the greater good of freedom to trade, freedom to grow, freedom
form fear: a limited promise from a limited government. 

It is because of those very freedoms that people may declare themselves
to be Vilani, Vilisthian, or a Vargr in the service of Duke Brzk, or
not. Were it not for this Imperium that _does nothing_ for the people,
they would be slaves under the bootheels of a myriad despots, huddled on
their own worlds, adrift one from the other, their children staring
hoplessly up at the unreachable stars, trapped in an ever lengthening
permanent Night.

OOC> I'm not really sure which if any faction Thucydides belongs to or
speaks for, but this is very much a traditionalist view of Cleon's
Imperium. The evidence indicates that Strephon had decentralized the
Imperium considerably by stregthening the Archdukes; this would
represent a continuace of this model of the Imperium. 

However, it's also noted in canon, that Strephon was indeed interested
in Dulinor's thoughts...that's why he elevated the man to archduke in
the first place...None of the resulting factions of the Rebellion
espoused these ideas in toto, though Norris came closest, and even he
bowed to the inevitable and unified Deneb more than the Imperium had
been.

Call him the voice of History   ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:48:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)

>Part of this was mistrust of robots (caused by some highly-publicized
>incidents with early self-motivated robots), part was the labor force's fear
>of replacement, part was the anti-Zhodani propaganda (insert vids of
>soulless Zho killer warbots performing atrocities here).
>
>This was a design decision on my part, as I didn't want my Traveller
>campaign to be too Star Wars-ish...I already had starport cantinas full of
>oddball aliens, I didn't want friendly droids around every corner as well.
>
>Robots were used in factories and other highly-controlled environments
>(such as the robots at Research Station Gamma, and yes the Imperium
>could use lethal force robots at a secret installation), and might be seen
>as stationary or semi-mobile expert systems (the Trader and Broker
>robots mentioned in Merchant Prince), but you wouldn't see them in
>most occupations - it would be strange on most worlds to bump into
>a robot on the street.
>
>Walt Smith

IMTU I also put high restrictions on combat robots etc. This is built into
the high level brains (most of their sentient like capabilities are
hardwired) and very hard to buy on the market. Criminals (and PCs) can
avoid this by programming DumBots to fight as the lowbrow brains cannot
understand what they're doing
- -"Point this rod at any moving heatsource with this size"
this can lead to interesting roleplaying situations
- -"Hey, don't point it at me!!!!"

I think most GMs in Trav will have to come up with a handwave for why so
much is still done by humans in Traveller. Especially astrogation seems a
field that would gain much by being robotized.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:41:00 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

Richard Hough wrote:

>Tall structures can be designed to be stable in themselves and not need any
>bracing or cable stays to hold them up. Skyscrapers are designed this way,
>and starships can be too. This is the point many find hard to accept, and
>the topic is too involved to go into here. If you want a more detailed
>explanation email me privately.

Skyscrapers don't have foundations?

>Speaking as someone who has been in several buildings designed by Arthur
>Erickson, I strongly dispute the notion that minimizing up/down movement is
>"good ergonomics". I don't know many office workers who pine for mile-long
>corridors instead of elevators.

Easy: Every office worker, as soon as the building catches fire. I've
also never had to wait for a corridor.

>My point is that contragrav and inertial compensation are totally
>unnecessary with perpendicular decks, except in high-thrust designs where
>they still have the advantage. It doesn't matter how reliable, cheap, etc
>you make contragrav, nothing is as cheap and reliable as equipment that
>isn't needed.

Define `high thrust'. I mean, in a 3G ship, your average human is going
to be nailed to the floor by the force. This isn't the transient G-
forces of a manoeuvring atmospheric fighter; it's a steady state force.
Even 2Gs will degrade the crew's ability to perform basic functions.

Basically, a perpendicular deck ship doesn't need artificial gravity if
it's always going to be thrusting it's engines at 1G. In any other case,
it should have artificial grav. Ditto inertial compensation, unless you
want the crew bouncing onto the floor/ceiling when you turn the engines
on/off

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:51:02 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

TravelrTNE wrote:

[snip]

>Reference is FM 17-15, Tank Platoon.  HQ, Dept of the Army (my copy is April
>1996, though i've seen newbies w/ newer printings).

Thanks, I think that agrees with what I was saying.

>For the BMP-3 fan out there (can't remember who you are)... 

That was me.

>Being that the US
>Army (and the US military, in general) is centered around combined arms
>(meaning there will almost always be an Abrams around when there's a Bradley,
>even in the cavalry troop), a BMP-3 is going to be looking at 120mm APFSDSDU
>coming its way.  

Well yes, but the Soviet/Russian/Eastern block forces are big on
combined arms too - indeed, there has been a lot of cross pollination
between the US and Russian doctrines. A BMP-3 does draw attention (not a
good think); but to be perfectly honest I'd take a T-90 and BMP-3
combined arms force over a same size, same training force in M1A2s and
M2s. The T-90 is just scary; and the BMP-3 has more options available to
it than the Bradley while fixing a number of the problems with the
earlier models.

Anyway, I thought that HEAT was the favoured round for not-tanks.
Certainly our lot use HESH.

>A BMP-3 is a tad higher on the threat list than the others.
>Speaking as a tanker (and a gunner at that), this will get them killed a whole
>lot more.  :-)  

If you're busy with heavy armour, the supporting fire from a BMP-3 is
more of a problem then from a -2.

>Now, for the US Marines, we have it the other way around.  The tanks are
>support for the infantry.   For whoever u where who was saying how fun it is
>to ride in an AAV... it's NOT!  lol.  I much prefer being in the Abrams for
>the amphibious landing and that isn't (much) fun either (especially after!).

Erm, I suggested that riding the LTVP-7 wasn't a laugh.

>Ob Trav.  The Imperial Army and Imperial Marines are likely the same way as
>the US on this doctrine, except the Imperial Marines are primarily space
>(heavy infantry/jump troops) rather than amphibious w/ grav tanks, APCs,
>ortillery, etc as support.  See the TO&E of the Imperial Marine MArCav
>regiment.  :-)  Imperial Army?  Trepidas and Astrins substituted for Abrams
>and Bradleys, though TL-15 Heavy Grav Tanks for higher TL worlds, and you
>should have the gist of it.  Regency Combat Vehicle Guide is invaluable for
>this discussion. : )

I see the Imperial Marines as a lot closer to the Marines in the days of
sail (shipboard security, boarding actions, limited landings) than
modern amphibious troops.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:17:15 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Donosev work in progress

If you're interested (I know some of you are for sure) you can see current
progress on the Donosev for "First In" at my site.  I'll keep updating it as
work progresses.  Should be finished in a day or two.

Jesse D.
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #174
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 175



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Finding Time & PDF
Re: Finding Time & PDF
Web Idea
Re: Donosev work in progress
*NEW* GURPS Traveller Vehicles Creation Program
Re: Finding Time & PDF
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: Donosev work in progress
The S'mrii - info needed
Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
GT : Stellar Class Subsidized Liner (Type M)
Re: Finding Time & PDF
Re: Deckplans
Re: Finding Time & PDF
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
Re: Deckplans
Re: Finding Time & PDF
HTML Character Sheet
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:19:48 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>Oh, by the way, Rob.  I downloaded Acrobat Reader just so I could read 102
>Vehicles.  It looks like a great supplement!  Any chance of adding some
>pictures to it in the future?

Depends. You an artist?

Seriously, if I ever get GT Infini-V working I'll be converting the
designs over to GT format, then reposting the book with _both_ sets of
stats. So if a talented artist was to get involved I wouldn't keep them
out.

>
>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?

You can. I just set up the security so you couldn't. Call me paranoid, but
I've seen my work stolen enough that setting everything but printing to
disabled is pretty much second nature by now.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:37:56 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF


>Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>>Oh, by the way, Rob.  I downloaded Acrobat Reader just so I could read 102
>>Vehicles.  It looks like a great supplement!  Any chance of adding some
>>pictures to it in the future?
>
>Depends. You an artist?

I might be able to manage if there was money in it; otherwise, simply no
time.

On an amateur basis, I might be able to contribute a few pictures for the
vehicles I like, but then people who liked a certain vehicle WOULDN'T like
it based on my illustration.
: )

>
>Seriously, if I ever get GT Infini-V working I'll be converting the
>designs over to GT format, then reposting the book with _both_ sets of
>stats. So if a talented artist was to get involved I wouldn't keep them
>out.


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:48:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Web Idea

I was thinking of an idea where a website would be a Traveller world or
system and have graphics, sounds, stats of leaders, vehicles, culture,
starport, etc.  It could be PBEM or just a source of information.

A hotlink would be a jump to another website for another world.  Links would
be provided to all worlds within Jump ___ on one page, within Jump ___ on
another page, etc.

This would allow TRUE role-playing (though by email) and some use of the
computer and the web to speed things up.  Why describe what you can depict?

Then, whenever I wanted to play a solo adventure, I could take a passage to
another webworld and meet the NPC's and PC's (who happen to be there at the
time) on that world, accomplish some things, and then jump to the next
world...

I think it would require work on our parts, but it would allow one world to
be developed in detail by one person.  The results would be varied.  The
responsibility for "dying" sites could be assumed by neighboring worlds.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:52:31 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

I've never seen this ship before!  Damn, it's ugly!  (I know its not your
artwork making it that way...)

Princess Leia wouldn't be caught dead in that thing.  : )

- --Clif


>If you're interested (I know some of you are for sure) you can see current
>progress on the Donosev for "First In" at my site.  I'll keep updating it
as
>work progresses.  Should be finished in a day or two.
>
>Jesse D.
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:55:50 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: *NEW* GURPS Traveller Vehicles Creation Program

I would like everyone to know about my recently licensed program,
GURPS Traveller Vehicles.

It has been about 6 months since it was submitted for approval and 
I can honestly say that I am happier than Pig in Slop.  Thanks, 
Reese!

This is a freeware (yes, freeware) GURPS Traveller Starship 
creation and maintenance program.  It fully implements the rules for 
starship creation found in GURPS Traveller.

You can get it at

http://www.felixcafe.com/gurps/

If that fails, then try

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Feedback is welcome.

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:10:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

Rob,
I might be able to do some illos, but it really depends on what kind of
deadline is involved.  As you know, I'm currently in the throes of working
on stuff for "First In".  I've also got that tank cover in the works for
BITS, and whatever comes after "First In".  Drop me a line at
fenris@slip.net and we can talk about specifics if you'd like.

Best Regards,
Jesse DeGraff
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm




>Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>>Oh, by the way, Rob.  I downloaded Acrobat Reader just so I could read 102
>>Vehicles.  It looks like a great supplement!  Any chance of adding some
>>pictures to it in the future?
>
>Depends. You an artist?
>
>Seriously, if I ever get GT Infini-V working I'll be converting the
>designs over to GT format, then reposting the book with _both_ sets of
>stats. So if a talented artist was to get involved I wouldn't keep them
>out.
>
>>
>>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?
>
>You can. I just set up the security so you couldn't. Call me paranoid, but
>I've seen my work stolen enough that setting everything but printing to
>disabled is pretty much second nature by now.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:18:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

You got THAT right!  If you can find them, the Donosev is in LBB Fighting
Ships and in DGP's World Builder's Handbook.  WBH has deckplans and full MT
stats on the ship.  Ugly as sin, but it does what it was designed for :)

Jesse




>I've never seen this ship before!  Damn, it's ugly!  (I know its not your
>artwork making it that way...)
>
>Princess Leia wouldn't be caught dead in that thing.  : )
>
>--Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:28:29 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

>If you're interested (I know some of you are for sure) you can see current
>progress on the Donosev for "First In" at my site.  I'll keep updating it as
>work progresses.  Should be finished in a day or two.
>
>Jesse D.
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

Well Done Jesse!  As are the rest of the renderings on your site.  This is
exciting artwork, as good or better than anything Chris Foss came out with
relating to Traveller.  I especially appreciate the detail work - that Free
Trader looks like its been in a few dirty starports over the years.

This does, however, reinforce my belief that the Donosev is one of the
least attractive vessels in the canon Traveller Universe.  Only the
Leviathan is quite so chaotic in construction.  Not that I would change a
thing.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:43:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

>"Ugly as sin,"

Never understood that expression much, since "sin" often seems to be
attractive.  Especially some of those pretty sins you see walking around.
 : )

to which you apply the counsel "beauty is vain(worthless)."

- --Clif

>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>I've never seen this ship before!  Damn, it's ugly!  (I know its not your
>>artwork making it that way...)
>>
>>Princess Leia wouldn't be caught dead in that thing.  : )
>>
>>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:42:34 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: The S'mrii - info needed

While sifting through all my HIWG documents during my work on the Dagudashaag
sector, I've come accross a few references to a race called the S'mrii.

I know nothing about them, except that they originate from Mimu (0208
Dagudashaag), play a seemingly important role in the Lancian Cultural Region,
and was created by Duncan Law-Green.

I could off course just ignore these references or make something up myself,
but out of respect for the HIWG people who visited Dagudashaag before me, I'd
like to use as much of their material as possible.

A web search didn't turn up anything other than there seems to be contact
articles about this race on the HIWG CD, which I regretfully do not own.

If someone has access to such articles, and would be so kind to mail them to me
(or the TML), they would earn my undying gratitude.

TIA

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:00:17 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

In a message dated 2/21/99 6:44:48 PM Pacific Standard Time,
TravelrTNE@aol.com writes:

<< they've focused on their
 domestically produced Merkava (the Merkava III is the curent model, w /a 120mm
 main gun), which basically sums up the fears they learned in the Yom Kippur
 war, in particular.  Fairly formidable, if unconventional design.  A true
 "infantry support" tank.  It can carry troops (4 IIRC), has a mortar, etc etc.
 It's slow as hell, though, w/ a diesel engine.  Run and gun is how we'd beat
 it (assuming we didn't have air trash em).  Course, this is all just
 hypothetical. :-) >>

The decided on a slow tank because the Israelis are obsessed with crew
survival due to their small population base. These tanks have frontally
mounted engines as extra armor. Of course any frontal arc penetrations (and
some non-penetrating hits), wreck and/or dismount the engine resulting in a
mobility kill. The Israelis accept this as they rather lose the vehicle and
save the crew...This is also the reason that the Merkavas have the famous
"APC" capability. She has rear crew access doors for re-ammo-ing under fire.
This is MUCH better than passing rounds down through the TC or loaders' hatch.
Somebody figured out that if you offload 80-90% of the main gun ammo, you can
squeeze four troopers into the ammo compartment. This isn't a pleasant
experience, but being uncomfortable is better than being dead, and the
Israelis do this when the M-113's are too vunerable. Needless to say, the
tankers are not thrilled to offload ammo...Run and Gun would work all right,
but I'd HATE to have to assault them in prepared hull down positions. This is
what the Merkava was designed for; set piece British style defenses in the
Golan Heights; ie. hopping from one emplacement to another... In the southern
Negev-Sinai border with its' rolling desert hills, the Israelis want more
speed, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got a license to build Abrams or
Leopard II's to replace their aging M60A3's...I would personally go with the
Abrams as it's got a proven desert track record in the Gulf...

Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
Imperial grav tanks?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:39:30 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Stellar Class Subsidized Liner (Type M)

600ton Stellar class Subsidized Liner (Type M), Tech Level 10

Crew:
 1 x Command, 1 x Helm, 1 x Navigation, 1 x Commo/Sensor, 2 x
 Engineering, 3 x Stewards, 1 x Medical
 Total Crew = 10

Specifications:
 600ton Unstreamlined Hull, Normal Compartmentalisation, Sealed,
 Medium (Default) Frame Strength, Standard (Default) Hull Materials,
 Expensive Metal (Default), DR 100, PD 4, +9 size mod, 123.5405 MCr,
 40332 HP, No Stealth, No Emissions Cloaking, 1 Unhardened Basic
 Bridge, 1 Engineering, 2 Utility, 50 Maneuver, 24 Powered Jump, 180
 Jump Fuel (60 for Jump 1), 1 Fuel Processor (22.5 hrs to process), 31
 Staterooms (10 Crew, 21 High Passage, 0 Middle Passage), 6 Low Berth
 (24 capacity, 20 Low Passage), 1 Sickbay, 175 Cargo (+9 in turrets),
 1 Power Plant (40 MW output, 24 MW excess), 1 Unpowered ContraGrav
 (8000 tons CG lift, 16 MW), 1 x 30 tons capacity Vehicle Bay (30std
 Ships Boat), 3 turrets

Performance:
 Jump 3, EMass 838.25 tons, LMass 1813.25 tons (Estimated carried mass
 = 100 tons), EMass 604.25 tons (less fuel), LMass 1579.25 tons (less
 fuel), Air Speed 0 mph (0 km/h), Acceleration - 2.39G Empty, 1.1G
 Loaded, 3.31G Empty (less Fuel), 1.27G Loaded (less Fuel)

Notes:

 Design Stats for Unpowered Contragravity Module:
 1 space, 4 tons, 0.8 MCr, 16 MW, 8000 tons lift


This class of ship is a standard design which is widely available
within the Imperium.  Its class name indicates that its members are
named for stars or star-connected items.  Some ship names come from
major stars (Castor, Pollux, Deneb), minor stars (Wolf 359, Dreesen,
Fonteyn's Star), or stellar phrases or foriegn language terms (Per
Aspera, Ad Astra, Gwiazda, der Stern, Morning Star, Iruud).

Many shipyards produce subsidized liners.  Large corporations often
build their own in their shipyards.  Subsidy providers often specify
that construction takes place in a shipyard on their world.

One of the most prolific producers of the subsidized liner is Tukera
Lines, which has constructed most of the subsidized liners in Tukera
service.  Other well-known constructers include Osten Varn Slinten of
Fornast sector, and Allied Prefabricated Ship and Vessels of Magyar
sector.

Stellar class subsidized liners feature a sleek hull with pleasing
lines to appeal to passengers, although it is not streamlined and the
ship is incapable of entering atmosphere (though built in contra-grav
units will allow it skim fuel from gas giants or land; in an
emergency).  The most striking feature of the ship is the large saucer
located forward; it serves as a passenger lounge.  It can variously
outfitted as a dining salon, a dance floor, or an entertainment area,
as the need arises.  The deck is ringed by observation ports which
give passengers a wide view of space (shutters to control the ports
are controlled from the bridge).


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:23:01 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

>Depends. You an artist?
>
>Seriously, if I ever get GT Infini-V working I'll be converting the
>designs over to GT format, then reposting the book with _both_ sets of
>stats. So if a talented artist was to get involved I wouldn't keep them
>out.


Okay, I'll bite. Where can one find 102 Vehicles?

(Would DGP-style pen-and-ink drawings do?)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:26:24 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:49:59 PST
From: "John Buston" <john_buston@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

> > <snippage of ship errata in G:T Alien Races 1>
> > Also; according to the CT Vargr aliens module; the trader should
> > have only five staterooms, and five crew; and thus carries NO
> > passengers....hmm....

> There are lots more than that :(

I know...

> How about the Shivva Class Patrol Frigate: DR of only 50, 10
> staterooms in text - yet deckplan shows 18 and most of them are
> oversize, plus the amount of deckplan room allocated for that 24
> spaces jump drive is just phenomenal. And even if you use the low
> numbers in the text the design doesn't fit in the space
> available. It is almost bearable with major tweaks (e.g. 18
> staterooms, DR 250, lower G rating to 1.5, move 15 DT of reserve
> fuel to the fuel skimmer). But I shouldn't have to tweak it.
> Unfortunately the same is true for many of the ships published
> for all systems.

I have a GT design for the Shivva I'd already done before the GT
Aliens book was published. Let me know if you want me to post it, I
think it's a better design than the one SJG did (though I'm biased, of
course) and is closer to the CT design. (It includes the 40 ton fuel
barge and 8 ton fighter (I called it the Shtelfire; did anybody else
read Scott (2G) Kellogg's Zhodani fiction?).

> I like ships, they add a lot of flavour to the game. I also like
> them to be consistent and well designed.  However, whenever I do
> a design check on a published ship I am usually disappointed.

Me too. I have a lot of trouble with the ships presented in the
initial GT book.

> So I suppose this is another reason to support products with
> program validated designs like 101 Starships from BITS. Now if
> they could just do version 2 with 101 deckplans...

YES!

> Aside: note that in the Yetsabl Zhodani Courier the single turret
> has two laser mounts and one sandcaster mount - making mixed
> ordnance turrets a valid design.

Which isn't a problem to play with GT ship combat anyway...

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:45:07 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?
>
Because its Microsoft Word???

PDF is better becUSE IT CAN BE VIEWED ON NEALY EVERY PLATFORM; (damn caps-lock)
and because its a defined standard. Mircosoft Word cant even read itself sometimes.

Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:35:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> You got THAT right!  If you can find them, the Donosev is in LBB Fighting
> Ships and in DGP's World Builder's Handbook.  WBH has deckplans and full MT
> stats on the ship.  Ugly as sin, but it does what it was designed for :)

The subject of starship aesthetics came up just recently in the
perpendicular-vs-parallel deck orientation thread, too -- and I'd sort of
like to hear what different people think are attractive designs.  Not in
functional terms, since there's more than enough of that going around
already, but in terms of style & looks.  What do you like in the shape and
layout of a ship?  Do you think certain functional roles are better
"expressed" by a certain style of design?  Should certain states/species
have immediately distinctive ship designs?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:35:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
> 
> >Too true.  There are no new plots.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I've read "Ecclesiastes".
> 
> There IS a difference between USA channel sci-fi movies and visionary sci-fi
> like "The 5th Element", which I saw last week.

!!!  ROTFLMAOASTC!!!  Damn!  I just norked Coke all over my screen! :^)
I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
*NOT* one of them.

>                                                 How about those guns that
> Gary Oldman was selling?  Woowee!  Even made a cool whirring sound as it
> ventilated the place.

Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:37:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Craig Barnett wrote:

> barge and 8 ton fighter (I called it the Shtelfire; did anybody else
> read Scott (2G) Kellogg's Zhodani fiction?).

_Yes_.  And is anyone else wondering whether we'll ever get to read what
happened after Part 3?

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:10:02 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?

1) You can if it is enabled. It defaults to on so the author gets the final
chance. I'm not sure if Rob enabled that feature.

2) Word sucks. Big clunky and platform dependent. We may as well use
ClarisWorks which is equally ubiquitous on the Mac. Arguing for RTF which
is sort of platform independent would have been more rational, but at least
Acrobat allows you to embed fonts and preserve the layout.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:47:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: HTML Character Sheet

At http://ddi.digital.net/~brclif/charactersheet.htm  I have put up a
web-based character sheet for Play By E-Mail campaigns.

I've added some attributes.  If you want me to put the formula for figuring
each one of them out, I can do that.

Also, I made Melee Combat and Brawling cascade skills.

Plus, I added two Bond skills:  Persuasion (which some may say is covered by
other skills) and Seduction.

- --Clif
(putting on Nomex suit and gloves)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:52:41 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

Alright Jesse now you've done it! 

When someone can make even the Donosev look good it's just too much!

How are the rest of us mere mortals supposed to feel in the presence of
Traveller Gods?! (Icons just doesn't cut it!) Honored, humbled,
fustrated as h*&l! I wish I had a fraction of your talent! Keep up the
great work! I sure love seeing those ships!

Have you thought of doing any animations? Say like the military
recognition files with the ships rotationg through uper, lower and 360
degree views? That would be worth the d/l time for sure!

Mike

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> If you're interested (I know some of you are for sure) you can see current
> progress on the Donosev for "First In" at my site.  I'll keep updating it as
> work progresses.  Should be finished in a day or two.
> 
> Jesse D.
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:55:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

>> There IS a difference between USA channel sci-fi movies and visionary sci-fi
>> like "The 5th Element", which I saw last week.
>
>!!!  ROTFLMAOASTC!!!  Damn!  I just norked Coke all over my screen! :^)

ASTC?  Is that like Spastic?  ; )


>I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
>(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
>*NOT* one of them.


The writer(s?) was a visionary man, even if it was while he was dropping
acid.  Those robot/aliens at the beginning were hardly your standard
cookie-cutter Star Trek/Star Wars alien.  And how about the expressive
nature of those other aliens' ears?
>
>>                                                 How about those guns that
>> Gary Oldman was selling?  Woowee!  Even made a cool whirring sound as it
>> ventilated the place.
>
>Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
>M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)
>

Sorry, but I've never heard one of these, and by the sound of what you're
describing, can you really hear any whir over the ear-shattering gunfire?

The Ruby Rod ("Baton Rouge" my dad said), Red Dick character was pretty
annoying but I have to give it a high score on originality.  I mean, what
WAS that tube looking thing on his head?

- --Clif

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #175
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 176



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: Donosev work in progress
Illustrating BITS 101 WebBooks
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
Re: Web Idea
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: deckplans and Dulinor's views
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Donosev work in progress
Reavers Deep.
Re: Above the Law Level
Boeing EX info wanted
Re: Donosev work in progress
Starship Aesthetics (was Re: Donosev work in progress)
The Fifth Element...
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
FELIX's Vehicles program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:45:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

At 10:51 AM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>>Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?
>>
>>sure, but let's see what happenes when Baron Henrich vonAttaboy tries to
>>throw his weight around before a People's Tribunal.  "You are a noble? Gut.
>> We arrest you more you bourgeois oppresor of the common proletariat!"
>>
>Who is the Law on that planet?  If the common proletariat has put down the
>previous regime, then has the law level changed?  There is still a law level
>vs. social status relationship going on there that I think could be
>codified.

You miss the point.  Novo Leningrad doesn't recognize Henrich's patent of
nobility as anything more than a confession of being an exploiter of the
masses.  Yes, in game terms, every single Comrade on the planet has a SOC
score, but in designing the culture, you need to determine who is above the
law.  Since I based Novo Leningrad on the USSR, it's the party that rules
things.  I know of no "people's revolutions" that ever put power in the
hands of the people.

Traveller rules are, by necessity, geared for the player-characters.  A
character with Soc-C will probably not enjoy his stay on Novo Leningrad,
since he will be by *law* stripped of most of the things he takes for granted.

Imagine a world where people with different colored eyes are held to be
holy.  The cannot be arrested, but are free to wander because it is
believed that one of their eyes is used by God.  A blue/hazel baby could be
born to an industrial giant or a poverty stricken family living under a
bridge.. that would be outside the law, but one would be SOC 10, the other
SOC 2.

>>Maybe, maybe not, considering that fame is very transitory, and most of the
>>light sentences tend to come in New York and California.
>
>He would still have a social status score.  Celebrities in this country are
>the nobility.  I'd rather meet Natalie Merchant than any politician or
>over-the-seas royalty you could name any day.

Who?

If I were a cop, and arrested Ms. Merchant, I wouldn't know her from Eve.

>>ACQ is designed for a specific thing that needs detail, combat.
>
>Oh, so you get to decide what needs detail and what doesn't and we should
>just accept your decree without thinking about it, ourselves?  Hail ArchDuke
>Doug!

That's Inquisitor Maximus, and don't you forget it!

You are comparing apples and oranges, and trying to compare a cultural
decision with a mechanical one.  *If* the world recognizes social rank as a
mitigating factor, the system provided works well.  It falls apart on any
world that doesn't fall in line with the European concept of nobility.

Combat, on the other hand, is a simple mechanical design issue.  No matter
the ideological bent of the rifleman, bullets are going to do predictable
things when they hit a target, and combat is something that can be reduced
to a well thought out, universal mechanic.

>>  Designing
>>a world's legal system should not be left to random die rolls, but
>>carefully thought out.

>One could say that designing a WORLD shouldn't be left to random die rolls.
>You're making statements which are only a matter of opinion.

For once I agree with you.  Which is why my version of Lunion has many
small changes to make it more accurate.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:01:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

>and I'd sort of
>like to hear what different people think are attractive designs.  Not in
>functional terms, since there's more than enough of that going around
>already, but in terms of style & looks.

I like the Beowulf FreeTrader, and now, thanks to Jesse, I'm a fan of the
Marava.

> What do you like in the shape and
>layout of a ship?

Star Destroyers, Rebel Blockade Runners would be welcome.

>  Do you think certain functional roles are better
>"expressed" by a certain style of design?  Should certain states/species
>have immediately distinctive ship designs?

No, except within racial spheres, thus mirroring the design conventions of
said race; otherwise, across racial boundaries I think PC's ought to be able
to look out the window and say, "What the %&*$ is that ugly thing?!"  "It
appears to be a ship, captain."

- --Clif
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:40 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

Clif posted:
>
> I've never seen this ship before!  Damn, it's ugly!  (I know its not
your
> artwork making it that way...)
>
> Princess Leia wouldn't be caught dead in that thing.  : )
>
>- --Clif

I believe the correct term is "butt-ugly".

This one has *got* to have been designed by a
Vilani architect. Strictly functional with 
_any_ thought to esthetics. Pure Vilani all
the way.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:05:33 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Illustrating BITS 101 WebBooks

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>writes:
>Okay, I'll bite. Where can one find 102 Vehicles?

www.bits.org.uk

>
>(Would DGP-style pen-and-ink drawings do?)

Yup. I can even scan them, although PICT files would be better (for me).

I'm not picky. I'll take anything, and include what I like. (Hey,
editorial priviledge gotta count for something.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:16:59 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

>I know of no "people's revolutions" that ever put power in the
>hands of the people.
>

I agree.  Seems the power goes from one group of those above the law to
another group of those who become above the law(if they aren't already above
the law).

>

>>He would still have a social status score.  Celebrities in this country are
>>the nobility.  I'd rather meet Natalie Merchant than any politician or
>>over-the-seas royalty you could name any day.
>
>Who?

Sigh.  Robert Downey, Jr., an example mentioned previously.  Shall I take
snip mode off?

>
>If I were a cop, and arrested Ms. Merchant, I wouldn't know her from Eve.

But if she placed a call to her attorney, you'd soon be acquainted.  For one
thing, I'd be damn surprised if she ever winds up in ANYONE's jail, but
that, of course, is beside the point.

>
>>>ACQ is designed for a specific thing that needs detail, combat.
>>
>>Oh, so you get to decide what needs detail and what doesn't and we should
>>just accept your decree without thinking about it, ourselves?  Hail ArchDuke
>>Doug!
>
>That's Inquisitor Maximus, and don't you forget it!

Maybe you meant "Circus Maximus", or "Circus Jerkus Maximus"?  Just kidding,
Doug.  Couldn't pass up the crack.

>
>You are comparing apples and oranges, and trying to compare a cultural
>decision with a mechanical one.

Detemining the law level itself is a cultural decision, as is determining
the tech level.


>Combat, on the other hand, is a simple mechanical design issue.  No matter
>the ideological bent of the rifleman, bullets are going to do predictable
>things when they hit a target, and combat is something that can be reduced
>to a well thought out, universal mechanic.
>

Where can I take an honest look at ACQ?  I'd like a system which determines
what part of the body is injured.
>
>>One could say that designing a WORLD shouldn't be left to random die rolls.
>>You're making statements which are only a matter of opinion.
>
>For once I agree with you.  Which is why my version of Lunion has many
>small changes to make it more accurate.

What is Lunion?


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:25:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

At 03:55 PM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:

>>I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
>>(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
>>*NOT* one of them.
>
>The writer(s?) was a visionary man, even if it was while he was dropping
>acid.  Those robot/aliens at the beginning were hardly your standard
>cookie-cutter Star Trek/Star Wars alien.  And how about the expressive
>nature of those other aliens' ears?

Clif, would you like a list of the authors working in the 1930s and 40s
that "Fifth Element" ripped off?  Then entire movie's look was taken from
old issues of _Heavy Metal_, especially the work of Mobius.

As for the ears...  from _A Relic of Empire_, Larry Niven, first published
in the late sixties:

"Piracy was only the end product.  It started a year ago, when I found the
puppeteer system."
"The-"
"Yes.  The puppeteers' home system."
Richard Mann's ears went straight up.  He was from Wunderland, remember?

Actually, add all of Niven's stuff to your to-read list.

>>Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
>>M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)

>Sorry, but I've never heard one of these, and by the sound of what you're
>describing, can you really hear any whir over the ear-shattering gunfire?

Absolutely.  In fact, you don't actually hear the shots, just that constant
ripping noise.  Very impressive.

>The Ruby Rod ("Baton Rouge" my dad said), Red Dick character was pretty
>annoying but I have to give it a high score on originality.  I mean, what
>WAS that tube looking thing on his head?

That was an effects depart with very little imagination told to "make him
look futuristic."  Which we all know means slap something on his head.

If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller players, _Dark
Star_.
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:41:18 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Web Idea

Clif writes:
>
> I was thinking of an idea where a website would be a
> Traveller world or system and have graphics, sounds,
> stats of leaders, vehicles, culture, starport, etc.
> It could be PBEM or just a source of information.


Don't stop there.  Use VRML and you can have 3D worlds
to explore and chat in.  Check out Colony City or
Starport C3 and you'll see what I mean.  A character's
avatar (3D puppet) can look like anything from people,
to robots, and beyond.  Built-in capabilities for
images, sounds, inter-active sensors, and such allow
for a plethora of special effects.

There are even servers that allow for multi-user
shared worlds.

Blaxxun has a demo VRML/chat server you can play with.
  http://www.blaxxun.com 

If you rather try 3D IRC instead, check out...
  http://www.attitudesoftware.com/

If your browser can view VRML (.wrl files), here's a
quick taste of what you can do without serious effort.
  http://members.tripod.com/~zircher/tb_sa_scv.htm

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:44:31 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

In a message dated 2/22/99 10:25:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<< 
 > And according to the Clinton Administration, salsa is considered a vegetable
 > in school lunches.
 
 At least it has more vegetables than ketchup.  :-)
 
 -- >>

It's the same thing, but the blender is set a bit lower.

		Dave N

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:47:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: deckplans and Dulinor's views

In mail you write:

>>My point is that contragrav and inertial compensation are totally
>>unnecessary with perpendicular decks, except in high-thrust designs
>>where
>>they still have the advantage. It doesn't matter how reliable, cheap,
>>etc
>>you make contragrav, nothing is as cheap and reliable as equipment that
>>isn't needed.
>
> I can accept that perpendicular decks wont need inertial compesation (so 
> long as they have limited maneuverability).

Remember, manuevers in space are *not* like manuevers in an aircraft or
even in a car. Except for *violent* turns, the worst that will happen
is that the apparent direction of "down" will change *slightly*.
 
> But I would argue that any  kind of starship would want artificial
> gravity for the time in jumpspace.

That's quite valid. And as a matter of fact, it just hit me that thios
is one of the reasons why ships prefer to jump while "coasting". If
they are under power, they've got to balance the gravity against the
thrust. And as they enter jump, acceleration should drop to zero (even
if the drive is still on!). And it may not drop smoothly.[1]

But if you aren't under power, you just turn on the artificial gravity
and leave it alone as you enter jump. 

[1] Since there's no *possible* frame of reference that you'd be
accelerating with respect to in jump, you *can't* be accelerating. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:55:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
>> What TL does superdense come in at? And what are the figures for it at
>> various TLs?
>
> Superdense is TL 12, Bonded Superdense is TL 14.  Before TL 12 radiation
> shielding on starships essentially sucks. 

So what are the shielding factors again? And do they vary with TL?

>>A factor of 10 reduction only helps a little. It'll give you a few
>>*minutes* of work time in a heavy flare. 
>
> True, but it sure beats going outside without one.

Yeah, like wearing a sweater helps in an Antarctic gale. :-)

Anyway, if you'll answer my question aboove, and if Bruce or someone
can get me info on flare intensities and durations, I can work up some
nice tables.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:09:35 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

Quick, someone hand me a beer so my head doesn't swell from all the great
comments!

Oh Michael, if only you knew some of the plans floating around in my
head!!!!  The biggest problem is _TIME_.  Damn having to make a living with
a real job!!  If I was independantly wealthy there'd be some SERIOUS stuff
showing up on my website and elsewhere on a near daily basis.  As it is, I'm
stuck working basically on one machine (a PII-266 w/160megs) after work and
on the weekends.  Once I get ahead of the deadline curve for "First In"
there's definately a few things I'd like to play around with.  This includes
a short .avi for fun of the opening sequence of Roger Barr's PBEM that I'm
involved with, QTVR or RealPicture navigatable panoramas of ship interiors,
finishing my "real" Traveller page, and finally getting to start on
vacc-formed combat armor, among other things.

Oh well, maybe if I can win the lottery I could get an SGI Reality Engine
(render farm) for the loft with a couple of Octanes for working on.  I can
always dream can't I?

Thanks again!!
Jesse


- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress


>Alright Jesse now you've done it!
>
>When someone can make even the Donosev look good it's just too much!
>
>How are the rest of us mere mortals supposed to feel in the presence of
>Traveller Gods?! (Icons just doesn't cut it!) Honored, humbled,
>fustrated as h*&l! I wish I had a fraction of your talent! Keep up the
>great work! I sure love seeing those ships!
>
>Have you thought of doing any animations? Say like the military
>recognition files with the ships rotationg through uper, lower and 360
>degree views? That would be worth the d/l time for sure!
>
>Mike
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> If you're interested (I know some of you are for sure) you can see
current
>> progress on the Donosev for "First In" at my site.  I'll keep updating it
as
>> work progresses.  Should be finished in a day or two.
>>
>> Jesse D.
>> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>--
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:11:31 -0800
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Reavers Deep.

I'm looking of a map showing the X-Boat routes through Reavers Deep.

Anyone who's got one give me a shout.

Thanks.

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:02:57 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In a message dated 2/22/99 4:01:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 You are comparing apples and oranges, and trying to compare a cultural
 decision with a mechanical one.  *If* the world recognizes social rank as a
 mitigating factor, the system provided works well.  It falls apart on any
 world that doesn't fall in line with the European concept of nobility.
  >>

	But remember that inside the Imperium each world will have one or more
members of the noble hierarchy responsible to/for it.  All Imperial citizens
will understand the importance of the nobility, regardless of local government
type.  So I think you could have a standard system of reaction to high SOC
stat, as long as that status was 11 or better (Knights and up).  But a SOC 10
business man from New Hong Kong  would be out of luck on Novo Lennigrad, while
Baron Chumley would likely get the respect that was "his due", for fear of
Imperial Intervention.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:27:52 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Boeing EX info wanted

OK, here's one for the aircraft fiends out there (airheads?  :)  I'm looking
for pictures of Boeing's EX "Diamond Eyes" AWACS replacement.  There used to
be info on Boeing's website about it, but I can no longer find anything on
there site.  I've found one reference on the web at
http://lisar.larc.nasa.gov/ABSTRACTS/EL-1996-00061.html that points out that
the plane was in Popular Science, Sept 1993.  I was wondering if anyone had
access to that issue and could scan for me, or if anyone is aware of any
other info out there on the web.

There is an Ob:Trav to this.  Talking recently about the (fugly) Donosev and
starship aesthetics, I'd like to design a Donosev replacement capable of
atomospheric flight, and this airplane struck me as a REALLY cool design to
play off of.

Lemme' know,
Jesse DeGraff
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:30:47 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

What would each one of us have to contribute each month to make you a
Traveller-only man?

I'd be willing to contribute my share.  We should be sponsoring this man.

I'll start with a pledge of $30/month.

- --Clif


>Quick, someone hand me a beer so my head doesn't swell from all the great
>comments!

>Oh Michael, if only you knew some of the plans floating around in my
>head!!!!  The biggest problem is _TIME_.  Damn having to make a living with
>a real job!!  If I was independantly wealthy there'd be some SERIOUS stuff
>showing up on my website and elsewhere on a near daily basis

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:37:25 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Starship Aesthetics (was Re: Donosev work in progress)

Kenji said;
>The subject of starship aesthetics came up just recently in the
>perpendicular-vs-parallel deck orientation thread, too -- and I'd sort of
>like to hear what different people think are attractive designs.

Well, since the Imperium is, in my opinion, terrans in space, I think that
most 3rd Imperium designs should look like they go "zoom".  I mean, what
are people gonna slap down Mcr300 to buy?  A borg cube?  No, a slick
looking fast ship...even if it actually moves like a borovian tree slug.

Saturn had it right; "I want a car that looks like it could actually take off."

>Not in
>functional terms, since there's more than enough of that going around
>already, but in terms of style & looks.  What do you like in the shape and
>layout of a ship?  Do you think certain functional roles are better
>"expressed" by a certain style of design?  Should certain states/species
>have immediately distinctive ship designs?

I think different species should have radically different attitudes about
ship shape.  Hell, I think that different branches of Humaniti should see
ships differently.  Another poster suggested that the Donosev was a Vilani
design; Functional, no extra features.  Solomani design, on the other hand,
could have tailfins like a 50's Cadillac.  Even different manufacturers
could have distinctive features thay are known for;

"Hey, is that a female humanoid on the nose of that scout ship?"

"No, That's Hortalez et Cie's idea of ornamentation."

Layout is a little harder to talk about quickly, and since I need to go
pick someone up now...

See ya.



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:44:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: The Fifth Element...

Clif <brclif@digital.net> writes:

> >!!!  ROTFLMAOASTC!!!  Damn!  I just norked Coke all over my screen! :^)
> 
> ASTC?  Is that like Spastic?  ; )

"And scaring the cat."

> >I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
> >(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
> >*NOT* one of them.
> 
> The writer(s?) was a visionary man, even if it was while he was dropping
> acid.

Oops.  My mistake.  I guess it *was* "HIGH" art after all! :^)

> >Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
> >M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)
>
> Sorry, but I've never heard one of these, and by the sound of what you're
> describing, can you really hear any whir over the ear-shattering gunfire?

After the belt runs out, you can.  Before that, you can't hear jack.

> The Ruby Rod ("Baton Rouge" my dad said), Red Dick character was pretty
> annoying but I have to give it a high score on originality.  I mean, what
> WAS that tube looking thing on his head?

Hair.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:48:01 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

Well, based on my current "real world" job, it would add up to about $110USD
/ day.  That's to remain at parity, more is always gratefully accepted  :)

Jesse




>What would each one of us have to contribute each month to make you a
>Traveller-only man?
>
>I'd be willing to contribute my share.  We should be sponsoring this man.
>
>I'll start with a pledge of $30/month.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>>Quick, someone hand me a beer so my head doesn't swell from all the great
>>comments!
>
>>Oh Michael, if only you knew some of the plans floating around in my
>>head!!!!  The biggest problem is _TIME_.  Damn having to make a living
with
>>a real job!!  If I was independantly wealthy there'd be some SERIOUS stuff
>>showing up on my website and elsewhere on a near daily basis
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:44:05 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

In a message dated 2/22/99 5:35:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, dberry@hooked.net
writes:

<< 
 If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
 Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller players, _Dark
 Star_.
 --  >>

	Silent Running?  Oh please.  It seemed alright in the 70's, but it
belongs on Mystery Science Theate 3000.

	Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:39:24 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: FELIX's Vehicles program

hey FELIX, tried to download your programs and I kep getting "the server
cannot be reached". any idea when this might be fixed?

Allen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #176
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 177



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Starship aesthetics
Re: Solar Flares
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: FELIX's Vehicles program
Visionary SF films...
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: Debate (was: Dulinor's views)
Re: Dulinor's views
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #172
Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Visionary SF films...
A Gross Double-Standard
Debate is PBEM
ASTC
Re: *NEW* GURPS Traveller Vehicles Creation Program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:19:24 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Starship aesthetics

>The subject of starship aesthetics came up just recently in the
>perpendicular-vs-parallel deck orientation thread, too -- and I'd sort of
>like to hear what different people think are attractive designs.  Not in
>functional terms, since there's more than enough of that going around
>already, but in terms of style & looks.  What do you like in the shape and
>layout of a ship?  Do you think certain functional roles are better
>"expressed" by a certain style of design?  Should certain states/species
>have immediately distinctive ship designs?
>
>Kenji
>



OK, here's some of my (random) thoughts on the subject.

There aready exists certain racial / species traits to their general ship
designs.  These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head without
my books here at work:
1.The aforementioned Vilani.  Tend to be simple, utilitarian designs.
They'll get you there, but you won't look good doing it.  The sub-merchant
is a Vilani design.
2.Everybody and their mother KNOWS when a Vargr ship shows up on their
screens.  That's because of the racial tendencies to have spiky, garishly
striped ships.
3.The Aslan ships tend to be very blended, rounded shapes, with intricate
characters engraved or painted on the ships.  Their lanthanum grids tend to
be shaped in these characters as well.
4.Hivers.  IIRC they tend to be borg cube style, i.e. plain boxes.
5.The Darrians use airframed vehicles exclusively (or nearly).  This is due
to their racial fear of another Maghiz-type event, where the electronics of
everything airborne at the time went out and everything in the air dropped
like a brick and crashed.

- ---------------------

I tend to like the swoopy, airframed style of ships (witness my Acipiter
Class and it's siblings), at least for PC groups.  In an emergency you can
attempt a dead stick landing with them ala the Darrians.  Also useful if
you're in atmosphere and the bad guys destroy your manuever and cg drives,
which I've done to players before >:)

For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the cargo
pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes sense to
me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock the
containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.

Warships, IMHO, should just plain LOOK nasty to deal with.  Fear factor is
not irrelevant, especially if you flash a picture at the PC's and say "This
just showed up in front of you".  Done that too :)

Then there's always the freaky alien things to throw at your characters, as
witnessed by the Annic Nova and the time I threw a Predator ship at my
players >:D  OK, so it wasnt' very imaginative, but it was fun.


Jesse DeGraff
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:57:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

In mail you write:

>> However, it's canon that Traveller starships exist and that crews don't die
>> every time they jump into a system that happens to be having a flare.
>> There must exist some semi-magical TL-10 or so radiation shielding 
> material;
>> it's a technological necessity.
>
> How many scenarios, in canon, have there been when there is a flare or
> radiation heavy environment?  Outside of canon, even?

Well, the point is that flares are pretty common. At least a few times
a year ships moving to and from the 100 diameter limit are going to be
exposed to a flare.

On the other hand, someone has found a reference that gives TL12 and
higher ships decent shielding.

> Along these lines, I'm interested in some simple numbers (preferably tied to
> spectral type and luminosity) for radiation levels at the various orbital
> zones.  Also, some gas giants will have this as an issue, too (Jupiter is
> supposed to have a pretty mean field IIRC).  Also methods of protection on a
> starship scale.

It's more complicated than that. There's radiation from the star, but
flares are an exceptional situation. Sort of like the difference
between wind and a tornado. 

So what we need are some tables for determining how "active" a star is.
That is how often and how strong it's flares are. That will take
spectral class into account. The result would be a permanent detail for
the star. 

Then, once you have the base activity level, you'd roll on a table to
see if there was a flare, and how powerful it is. The base activity
level would likely be a modifier on this roll. 

And technically, you'd be rolling for *direction* of the flare. A lot
of flares occur but go nowhere near Earth. I'd handle that by having
tow sets of tables. One for when you are dealing with the whole system
(and thus want to generate *all* flares), and another for when all you
care about is the world and the space around it out to the 100 diameter
limit. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:46:37 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

In message <l03110702b2f63f05f57b@[195.102.200.254]>, SD Mooney
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes
>>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
>
>A carrot is under EU law.

Only when the Portuguese make jam out of it.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:24:49 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: FELIX's Vehicles program

> hey FELIX, tried to download your programs and I kep getting "the server
> cannot be reached". any idea when this might be fixed?

Try it now.  I made a few changes so it isn't DNS required.

My ISP insists that the rest of the world is at fault when somebody 
can't reach my site.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:47:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Visionary SF films...

Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
> Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller players, _Dark
> Star_.

Doug, now *THAT* is what I call a list of visionary films!!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook *  mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:15:17 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/22/99 10:25:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:
>
> <<
>  > And according to the Clinton Administration, salsa is considered a
> vegetable
>  > in school lunches.
>
>  At least it has more vegetables than ketchup.  :-)
>
>  -- >>
> It's the same thing, but the blender is set a bit lower.

Hmm.  What passes for salsa in your neck of the woods, I don't really want
to know.  FWIW, my ketchup does not contain onions, jalapenos, or cilantro.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:48:46 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Debate (was: Dulinor's views)

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:30:54 -0500, AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>Jeff,

>Could you fill us in again, just how this debate will be managed in real-life?

Certainly.  First, by now you'll have seen the "Rules of
Engagement".  That's the "mechanical" issues.  The debate itself
is "in-persona", that is, the participants are not Gregorian XXc
readers of the Traveller Mailing List, but are persons (probably
of some significance) in the Third Imperium, circa 1116.  The
question put, in essence, is "Does the Imperium need a new
direction, and if so, what is that direction?"  This debate
started in some Imperium-wide publication that the movers and
shakers all can reasonably be expected to read, anonymously.  It
is a good idea for participants to select a pseudo for use in the
debate; one may write in the debate as one imagines that Blaine
Tukera might, but should not sign the posts as "Blaine Tukera";
choose instead an pseudonym, perhaps "Adam Smith".  Of course,
there need be no connection between your POV and the significance
of your pseudo.

Good references:  For the form of the debate, see the Federalist
and AntiFederalist Papers, containing a similar debate over the
recently-proposed Constitution of the United States of America;
for the background of the debate, the best references are
_Survival_Margin_ and _Rebellion_Sourcebook_, although I
distinctly recall articles in either Challenge or Traveller's
Digest providing more information on specific factions.

"Gallatin 1" has been posted.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:48:52 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Dulinor's views

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:02:06 -0500, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

>> of the debate.  I will say this, though - this is the hardest
>> piece of writing I have done in many years; it is not easy making
>> a reasoned and convincing argument for a position that one is
>> strongly though perhaps not viscerally opposed to in real life.

>If you want, I'll play Dulinor-in-disguise.  Or maybe one of his supporters,
>if you don't want to give it up.  I've always been sympathetic to his faction
>(particularly the line in the Imperial Encyclopedia, ref's section, that says
>"Dulinor acted entirely properly, as was his right as an archduke").  Some of
>his later decisions (in Survival Margin) seem pretty weird, though its really
>ironic that if Virus hasn't been released, he would have won (he got within
>two or three jumps of Capital before his whole Coronation Fleet starts going
>crazy and malfunctions) the Rebellion (as much as can be said after 14 years
>of the 2nd Civil War).

Actually, I'm enjoying the challenge.  There's certainly no
prohibition on multiple participants supporting the same
position, although I would hope that not everyone will choose the
same "side" in the debate.

The thing to remember here is that the Point of Departure is that
Dulinor did _not_ decide to assassinate Strephon, but instead
chose to start this debate.  That suggests a slightly different
personality than in the canonical Traveller and GURPS Traveller
universes.  This is a debate on a future direction for the
Imperium, and it will ultimately be up to Strephon whether any of
the proposed directions are followed.  (This could also be the
"root" of yet another Imperial timeline; the question becomes
what kind of adventuring becomes possible in it.)

>You wanna be Brzk?  Stay with Dulinor (and i'll be the Duke of Verge or
>someone).  Or who, in the era of IY 1116, do you most identify your personal
>views on the Imperium with?  

Actually, I'll be taking two positions in this debate; Dulinor
("Gallatin") and Norris ("Dilgaadin").  I see the two as largely
compatible, given Norris's actions subsequent to the closure of
Deneb's borders - but in a sense, Norris is far more radical than
Dulinor.

I'd like to see others take different positions - it's almost a
sure bet that the Archduke of Sol or someone speaking for the
Vegan Autonomous District will support Strephon; Bzrk and others
from that region may very well support a policy of _external_
engagement; the Vilani will almost certainly argue for the status
quo of the past thousand years, or perhaps argue for
restructuring along the lines of the Ziru Sirka, and so on.
There are many viewpoints available; there are many people on
this list - plenty of room in the pool for everyone.

The rest of your article, I'll not comment on; it's more
appropriate to take it into the persona debate.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:35:29 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

In a message dated 2/22/99 12:38:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, markc@peak.org
writes:

<< "The 5th Element"
 (which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
 *NOT* one of them. >>

I concur...Great movie to watch; but too cyberpunkish for my tastes...Though I
wished I had one of those NYCPD grav-rmp's when I worked in Brooklyn. For that
matter, I could have used the body armor too....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:48:54 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #172

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:02:06 -0500, "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[quoting me]

>>There is a difference between _views_ and _ideology_ and
>>_espoused_positions_.  Look at any U.S. politician for proof.
>>Unofficially, it's a pretty good bet that one of the "orators" in
>>the debate is, in fact, Dulinor himself.  I'll even go so far as
>>to say that I will be His Grace's alter-ego in this debate.  But
>>you don't need to know what is views or ideology are; you need to
>>consider his espoused ideas, and that only in the persona context
>>of the debate.

>I was using the term ideology very loosely.  I was thought you would 
>catch my drift.  But obviously not, because no one has answered my 
>question.
>I'll ask again, using your terminolgy, what are his espoused ideas then?  
>Is there any previously written material on this or were you planning on 
>writing it yourself?

One can get an outline of Dulinor's position from
_Survival_Margin_ and _Rebellion_Sourcebook_.  I think there was
also at least one article in either Challenge or Traveller's
Digest that discussed Dulinor's plans, but I can't locate it at
the moment.  Beyond what's there, it's simply going to be the
writer's interpretation of the person's views - and that will be
true for all participants in the debates.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:49:02 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:20:03 -0500, steve daniels
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>Freelance Traveller wrote:

>> I would appreciate it if the participants in the In-Persona Debate would
>> identify their posts with the string "[Debate]" in the subject line,
>> followed by the persona name and sequence number - e.g., "[Debate]
>> Arbellatra 1".  Optionally, follow that by the name and sequence number
>> that your post is a response to: "[Debate] Soegz 4 resp Tukera 2".  This
>> will make it easier to sequence the posts later, for the archive.

>Oy veh.  I won't even pretend to be able to keep up with that kind of thing.

>I understand it may be very convenient for you.  But, I probably won't even
>read the post if it says something like what you suggest.  I don't have enough
>MT knowledge or materials to participant in any knowledgeable way,
>so, the more complicated, the more I lose interest.

Actually, the only reason I'd like this is so that I can build
the archive that you suggest.  The best key here is the string
"[Debate]"; the rest is, strictly speaking, optional, though it
would make things easier when we get to the point that there are
multiple threads originating with the same post.

>A couple of thoughts:

>Considering the intensive posting nature of the TML, each post will generate
>so many reponses, and those responses will get responses, that you'll have a
>huge geometrically expanding tree of posts.  A daunting task to integrate and
>keep straight.

Which is why the subject lines I suggested will help.  It will be
a major bear if everything has a subject line of "[Debate]
Dulinor's Views" or some such...

>Since it seems to me that what you want is similar to the kinds of public
>debates that went on around the time of the American Revolution, with
>pseudonyms, pamphlets, etc.,  I think you might be better off using a
>web page system to post coherent responses.  For example: first,
>Dulinor-In-Disguise posts Comment I.  Its on a webpage and the TML.
>TML will by its very nature generate many picemeal responses and
>healthy discussion.  Someone will post a full Response I.  (There may be several).
>(By full response, I mean a coherent reply that doesn't quote and respond to
>pieces of the previous post).  These kind of full responses could then be posted
>to the webpage, so that on the webpage, you get a collection of statements
>from the various viewpoints.  That site could be spiced up with juicy quotes
>from the discussion on TML.

This _will_ be incorporated into Freelance Traveller (the
Speakers' Corner), as soon as I find another site to mirror it at
- - I've been blindsided from two directions at once, as NeoTown
appears to be down hard, and I just got a note from the U.S.
Bankruptcy Court in Brooklyn that Execnet has sevened.

Fortunately, I have a copy of the site on my own machine, and I
own at least three places that I can post it, at the cost of
losing the use of the Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages
- - which would apparently be no great loss, judging from how
little they're actually used, but...

I haven't decided whether to include - or even recognize -
discussion on the debate that's not in-persona.  It's somewhat
contrary to the intent, and I'm not sure that it can easily be
made to "fit".  But I'll think about it...

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:42:01 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

In a message dated 2/22/99 1:04:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< Star Destroyers, 

any Imperial wedge hull warship has that covered...

Rebel Blockade Runners would be welcome. >>

a little tougher, but some of the bulk freighters look vaguely like her,
though for RPGing; I'd use a subsidized liner...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:45:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In mail you write:

> At 12:17 PM 2/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>That's a cop-out.  I made the post asking for a system, not for the pat
>>answer of "roleplay it."
>
> No, that's the answer.
>
> Say a world is law-level ten, but the family members of the ruling
> oligarchy can get away with murder.  (Example: the families of high party
> members in the USSR).
>
> An Oligarch's son stands the same chance of being arrested for deviant
> decadent behavior, but when they find out who he is (and more importantly,
> who his father is), he'll be released with an apology.

Actually, the son of the high party member has a lesser chance of even
being arrested. He'll be well known, and if a rookie cop goes to arrest
him the odds are good that another cop will pull him aside and warn
him. And if *that* doesn't happen, you can be sure that the son will
inform him. 

You know, the standard "Do you know who I am?" bit. And at least in the
Soviet system, the odds are rather good that he'd be believed, possibly
having to show his ID. The system was so rigid that the mere fact of
standing up to authority was strong evidence that you *did* have high
status. 

> What you as the Referee do is decide to whom the laws don't apply and why.
> Possible reasons are religious, corruption, financial, or some other
> influence.

There's also the equivalent of "national security". Those cute "get out
of jail free" cards that the CIA used to give people in Vietnam[1].
They read something like:

	The bearer of this card is not to be interfered with
	in ANY way and is to be rendered any and all
	assistance.		XXX-XXXX

That last was a phone number to confirm things with. 

Strictly speaking, those cards are *not* legal. Nor is a lot of other
stuff that gets swept under the rug in the name of national security.

A much older example is the "carte blanche" Cardinal Richilieu gave to
Milady deWinter. Again, the legality is *highly* debatable. But in
*practice* NO ONE will argue the point.

[1]You used to be able to buy reproductions from ads in Soldier of
Fortune. I don't know if you still can, but they'd make a good starting
point for a prop, as well as being fun to show people.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:59:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 2/20/99 9:28:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> brclif@digital.net writes:
>
> << 'm wondering how to make a system where social class can make someone
>  "above the law level".
>  
>  Doesn't seem realistic to only rely on skills and their levels.
>  
>  --Clif
>  
>   >>
>   I seem to remember one version of Traveller where a character rolled 2d6 vs
> his Social Stauts to "avoid police harassment"  or some such thing.  Sounds
> like the basis for  a system.  Perhaps make characters on Low Law Level
> Planets roll Soc or less on 2d6, Mod law planets on 2.5 or 3d6, High Law
> planets 3d6, 3.5 or 4d6.

For the folks playing GURPS, it'd *definitely* be a major advantage.
Notoriety or some such. It's not *merely* "social". It's a "Who YOU
are" thing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:42:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In mail you write:

>> she would blow through customs just showing her
>>Patent with a needle gun openly showing on her hip...
>>
>>Keven
>>
> But then it was legal...
>
> I'm speaking of people that you just can't bring to justice because they are
> so socially powerful.   (no social commentary added)

Ah.

Well, that depends on the type of universe you run. Mostly on where it
falls on the scale of "rule of law" vs "rule of men".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:27:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Visionary SF films...

I SAW "A Boy and His Dog"...  I can't picture that strange work as a Trav
adventure, though I DO believe having seen it when I was a teen inspired the
milieu which is the basis of the springboard for my current campaign.

"AB&HD" seems more like a long Twilight Zone episode.

- --Clif


>Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>> If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
>> Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller players,
_Dark
>> Star_.
>

And 2001: was so realistic that I can't see how it would be called
"visionary", except for HAL, which is just techno-fear blown-up.  I would
call 2001:  a landmark in film-making, yes; a masterful work of art, yes,
but I don't know about visionary.

I guess by visionary I am thinking "different", since you can use your own
eyes to see things that are the same.  Visionary men use what some term "the
mind's eye".

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:29:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: A Gross Double-Standard

Another one of those off-topic posts that Bloo and the rest are always
complaining about.

- --Clif

P.S.:  Maybe there is something to this numerology nonsense and I should
spell out my name fully so that I would get a better reaction roll for each
of the list's NPC's?

>Hmm.  What passes for salsa in your neck of the woods, I don't really want
>to know.  FWIW, my ketchup does not contain onions, jalapenos, or
>cilantro.
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:34:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Debate is PBEM

Somehow you geniuses managed to get a Play By Email Campaign going on the
TML after I was told how I couldn't post turns.  Yes, yes, I understand that
it is quite within the guidelines of the list, since you are discussing a
"what if", but you're also playing upper-echelon Traveller by Email.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:44:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: ASTC

>> ASTC?  Is that like Spastic?  ; )
>
>"And scaring the cat."

Ah!  I'm gonna have to get a cat so I can use that one.  : )

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:44:21 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: *NEW* GURPS Traveller Vehicles Creation Program

A most excellent site!!! Many thanks for the time saving software that you
are giving away free.  This is truly oustanding TROOPER!

Thom Harris

From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: *NEW* GURPS Traveller Vehicles Creation Program


I would like everyone to know about my recently licensed program,
GURPS Traveller Vehicles.

This is a freeware (yes, freeware) GURPS Traveller Starship
creation and maintenance program.  It fully implements the rules for
starship creation found in GURPS Traveller.

You can get it at

http://www.felixcafe.com/gurps/

If that fails, then try

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Feedback is welcome.
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

***************************************************Read
Below************************************************************

I couldn't help but think of another Army saying that you can add (or not)
to your taglines:
I put in the following space on purpose so that people that people that
would be offended wouldn't have to see it as it contains profanity!!! If it
offends you then don't go there......





Still Going





Still Going





Still Going





Here it comes


Fuck'em all but nine; six for pallbearers, two for road guards and ONE to
count cadence!
                -Old Army Prayer-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #177
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, February 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 178



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sponsor Jesse Campaign
Re: FELIX's Vehicles program
Re: Starship aesthetics
[Debate]  "The Old Marquis" 1
Re: Web Idea
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Current Space Stations and Solar Flares
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: Andre Norton
Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: Starship aesthetics
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Donosev work in progress
Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement
Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement
Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:47:04 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Sponsor Jesse Campaign

D'oh!  Looks like you're gonna be at your real job for a while.  : )

Anyway, my pledge stands, but you'd be looking for about 120 equal pledges,
and I don't think this list will come up with that.

- --Clif

P.S.:  If I made what you did, I wouldn't be worrying about winning the
lottery.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress


>Well, based on my current "real world" job, it would add up to about
$110USD
>/ day.  That's to remain at parity, more is always gratefully accepted  :)
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>What would each one of us have to contribute each month to make you a
>>Traveller-only man?
>>
>>I'd be willing to contribute my share.  We should be sponsoring this man.
>>
>>I'll start with a pledge of $30/month.
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>>>Quick, someone hand me a beer so my head doesn't swell from all the great
>>>comments!
>>
>>>Oh Michael, if only you knew some of the plans floating around in my
>>>head!!!!  The biggest problem is _TIME_.  Damn having to make a living
>with
>>>a real job!!  If I was independantly wealthy there'd be some SERIOUS
stuff
>>>showing up on my website and elsewhere on a near daily basis
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:51:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: FELIX's Vehicles program

> hey FELIX, tried to download your programs and I kep getting "the server
> cannot be reached". any idea when this might be fixed?

Try it now.  I made a few changes so it isn't DNS required.

My ISP insists that the rest of the world is at fault when somebody
can't reach my site.

One of those guys conned me for lots of money when I first started on the
Net.

- --Clif


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:34:17 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

What do you like in the shape and
>>layout of a ship?  Do you think certain functional roles are better
>>"expressed" by a certain style of design?  Should certain 
states/species
>>have immediately distinctive ship designs?
>>
>>Kenji
>>
>
>
>
>OK, here's some of my (random) thoughts on the subject.
>
>I tend to like the swoopy, airframed style of ships (witness my 
Acipiter
>Class and it's siblings), at least for PC groups.  In an emergency you 
can
>attempt a dead stick landing with them ala the Darrians.  Also useful 
if
>you're in atmosphere and the bad guys destroy your manuever and cg 
drives,
>which I've done to players before >:)
>
>For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the 
cargo
>pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes 
sense to
>me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock 
the
>containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.


This is a really good look. I also personally like the "large trailer" 
look of some cargo haulers I've seen. A small living space and HUGE 
drives with the ability to hook up one or more pods.


>
>Warships, IMHO, should just plain LOOK nasty to deal with


Like several of the vessels on Bab 5?  I really like the look of the 
earth ships, large weapon platforms are really intimidating to small 
merchant/adventurer class vessels...

Roger

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:49:38 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: [Debate]  "The Old Marquis" 1

		The Way of Liberty	

Fellow Citizens,

	Our old and glorious Imperium is a thing of wonder.  We enjoy wealth,
stability and more than our share of justice and peace.  Yet all these things
aside, it is a thing of wonder because it gives all sophonts their best
opportunity to enjoy liberty.
Furthermore, it is two policies that give this gift of liberty to the citizens
of the Imperium, namely, the Imperium's insistence on control of the
spacelanes, and it's policy of allowing member worlds to manage their own
affairs without Imperial interference.
	"How can you say this," you might ask "when local governments can be
tyrannical and non-responsive to the needs of the people."    Ha!  The
citizens of our  empire possess a powerful "right to vote" that can nullify
any local government's policy.   That right to vote is the right to move,
i.e., the right to vote with one's feet.  As long as the empire controls the
spacelanes and the extraterritorial starports, any citizen who can scrape
together 1000cr can become a Traveller and find himself a new home and a new
way of life.  The Imperial Ministry of Colonization supports this right in
other ways, giving those in need an opportunity to start afresh.
	Compare the fate of sophonts in other realms of space to those in the
Imperium.  If a Zhodani citizen rejects Zhodani culture or government, he is
considered mentally ill and is reeducated.  If a Solomani citizen rejects the
Solomani Cause, he is considered a traitor to the race.  If a K'kree takes up
a desire for meat, he is an abomination.  If an Aslan rejects the clan system,
he is an outcast with nowhere to go.  The Hivers make it a practice to
manipulate every aspect of culture and society, from which an individual Hiver
has no escape. As for Vargr, well, they're Vargr after all.
	Our Imperium offers us a staggering range of diversity of culture, ideology
and opportunity.  It gives the citizen the chance to find a place of his own,
a culture of his own, a home of his own.   The day the "Ministry of Education"
or "Ministry of Cultural Compliance" begins to alter worlds and local systems,
"for the good of the people" of course, we will have lost something
irreplaceable.  
	When the Emperor or some "elected body" is given the power to interfere with
a world for a good cause, it gains that same power to do so for an evil one.
The Imperium will become more and more uniform.  The Imperium will become more
and more stagnant.  The citizen will become more and more constrained.  In
fact, when the Imperium abandons the "rules the space between worlds and not
the worlds" policy it invites the return of the stagnating vices of the First
Imperium.  Have you learned nothing?
	The path the Imperium is on now is the right one.  It is the path of choice.
It is the path of opportunity.  It is the path of open horizons for the common
man.  It is the way of Liberty.

			The Old Marquis 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:58:15 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Web Idea

>If your browser can view VRML (.wrl files), here's a
>quick taste of what you can do without serious effort.
>  http://members.tripod.com/~zircher/tb_sa_scv.htm
>

Hey, that was cool!  I guess IE 4.0 must be able to view VRML, though when I
hit the "goto" button IE crashed, followed by Windows Explorer crashing, but
then it came back, those I had to reconnect to AOL IM and ICQ.


Thanks for showing me that.
- --Clif
>--
>TAZ
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:18:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

In mail you write:

> Greetings All:
>
> Dom had asked about Andre Norton's "Solar Queen" series. I've listed below
> both that series and her other series books (that I know of) along with
> several non-series books that I'm familiar with.

Actually, it's not that hard to tie almost *any* of her books together.
For example, in "Beast Master" a set of gardens in a cave system are
found (Forerunner stuff). Well, one of the gardens has a tree bearing
Astran "golden apples", which ties that series to the Pax/Astra stuff.

Likewise, several other stories refer to the "Caverns of Arzor" (the
caves I mentioned above). I actually managed to tie "Beast Master" to a
story where earth *wasn't* burned off with only a couple of
intermediate links. :-)

Norton wasn't that careful about re-using references. So it's best to
consider all her SF to be the *same* universe, except for the few
details that conflict. Well, all of them but the Croostime stories and
the Ross Murdoch ones. 

> Dread Companion

For the folks who don't remember, this one has the rather odd little
girl and her brother. The "hero" is a girl hired to be their "nanny".
They get transferred to a new world and on an outing the girl opens a
gate to another "place" which may be the basis of the legends of
elf-hills.

> Star Man's Son (also known as Daybreak 2250 AD or Star Man's Son 2250 AD)

One of the better "after the nuclear war" stories from its period.

If I thought I was good enough, I'd ask for permission to do a GURPS
sourcebook of her SF. Getting her to fill in the blanks on her various
races and the like before she dies is something that would be a
wonderful legacy for future readers and gamers.

I also like the idea of a universe with Zacathans, the "bird" species I
can't rember the name of and all the minor races such as the Salariki. 
A *great* starting point for a campaign would be a few generations
after "Star Rangers". Re-expanding from an earth that now has some
aliens as well as humans on it...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:35:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

In mail you write:

> Whatever you do, however, do not buy Quag Keep!  It was a wretched piece of
> drivel.

But it's also the reason I think that Norton *would* agree to a gaming
sourcebook based on her SF. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:36:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Current Space Stations and Solar Flares

In mail you write:

> Greetings All:
>
> I'm trying to find a specific reference, but if I remember correctly the Mir
> (along with Skylab, Saylut and theupcoming ISS) do **not** have a solar flare
> "vault" for the crew. The reason: They orbit low enough so that the Earth's
> own magnetic shields (Van Allen Belts) protect them from all but the worse
> storms.

You do recall correctly.

> As for missions **above** theVan Allen zone, such as the Apollo missions to
> the moon, they were planned during periods of low solar activity--in the 
> hopes that they would not get a surprise!

Also, the Apollo service module would *probably* have provided enough
"shadow shielding" for a flare. The real danger period (as at least one
TV movie showed) was while they were on the surface of the moon. A
*big* flare then, with a rapid rise time, could get them before they
could get back to the Lunar Module and rendezvous with the CSM.

In the movie, they'd been pretty far out using the lunar rover. And
when they finally got back to the LM, the radiation has affecting them
enough that the pilot crashed it on takeoff. As was shown all too
clearly by the camera they'd erected when they first set up on the
surface. 

Leaving the remaining astronaut to break orbit and head home alone. And
feel guilty for the rest of his life. :-(

Anybody remember that movie? 

BTW, the Apollo missions are the *only* manned missions to go beyond
low earth orbit.

> As for future missions, to Mars or wherever, a number of schemes are on the
> books. Dramatic tellings of crews being zapped by radiation can be found in
> various stories by Arthur C. Clarke and Stephen Baxter (especially Baxter's
> Titan, where one crew member is killed during a storm when she fails to hear
> the alarm because she's listening to her Walkman!) as well as Kim Stanley
> Robinson's "Red Mars" (first volume of the Mars Trilogy) and many more
> besides...

Also, Heinlein goes into it in "The Rolling Stones". And Lee Corey (the
late G. Harry Stine) went into *lots* of detail in "Space Doctor" (or
was it "Space Medic"? I *hate* having most of my books in storage!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:50:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

In mail you write:

> For the BMP-3 fan out there (can't remember who you are)... Being
> that the US Army (and the US military, in general) is centered around
> combined arms (meaning there will almost always be an Abrams around
> when there's a Bradley, even in the cavalry troop), a BMP-3 is going
> to be looking at 120mm APFSDSDU coming its way.  A BMP-3 is a tad
> higher on the threat list than the others.  Speaking as a tanker (and
> a gunner at that), this will get them killed a whole lot more.  :-)
> The smaller weapons are alot easier to ignore than the 100mm on the
> BMP-3, at least when there are other targets.  The two tank platoons
> in the armored cavalry troop will see to it, that is if air don't get
> it.  Course the Army doesn't have the luxury the Marines have...
> independant air support.  :-)

The most recent Russian APC has a 120mm smoothbore. Only difference
between it and the ones on their tanks is that the barrel is shorter.
That probably makes it more of a target, but on the other hand, it also
means that when they have to shoot at tanks, they actually have a
chance! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:47:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

In mail you write:

> But to be honest, I would think that reading *some* science-fiction would
> be a good idea, and I've mined HHGTTG for several good ideas.  (Residents
> of Mora fear the coming of the Perpetual Floating Cocktail Party.)

I'd be more worried about hearing that Disaster Area was planning a
concert on my planet!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:08:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

In mail you write:

>>>Hmmm, I wonder if they have a social status score?
>>
>>Maybe, maybe not.  What is the Soc of a buddhisy monk?
>
> Who knows, but if he is an NPC or a PC, he has a social status score.
>>
>>>>Example: Novo Leningrad a police state with incredibly repressive laws
>>>>(level E).  High Party members and their families (who hold special
>>>>passports and ID papers) can openly do things that would get the ordinary
>>>>citizens shot.
>>>
>>>Hmmm, I wonder if High Party members have a social status score?
>>
>>sure, but let's see what happenes when Baron Henrich vonAttaboy tries to
>>throw his weight around before a People's Tribunal.  "You are a noble? Gut.
>> We arrest you more you bourgeois oppresor of the common proletariat!"
>>
> Who is the Law on that planet?  If the common proletariat has put down the
> previous regime, then has the law level changed?  There is still a law level
> vs. social status relationship going on there that I think could be
> codified.

I think the point they were trying to make is that social level is a
*lot* more relative than the game implies. A "noble" visiting a
"People's Republic" is going to be treated as having a *low* social
status whenever the locals can get away with it.

Ditto for a "People's Commisar" visiting a lot of other places.
Official government representatives will be somewhat immune to this.
But the less important their post, the more likely they are to get the
normal (bad) treatment.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:06:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> (Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
>> structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
>> of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically). 
>
> The Delta-X toppled *after a major landing gear failure*. The Eifel
> tower will fall over if you dynamite one of the legs. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got decks
> perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the pad, some of
> it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to thrust (landed VTOL
> airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a landing gear failure.

It'll still break its back. Also, consider the loading on the landing
gear. Making retractable gear for something that heavy is gonna be
interesting. The stresses on the gear for a tail sitter require lighter
gear.

> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you land,
> or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more convenient
> for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool that way.

Reason two makes no sense. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:27:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Andre Norton

In mail you write:

>>Ross Murdock/Time War Series:
>>Time Traders
>>Galactic Derelict
>>The Defiant Agents
>>The Key Out of Time
>>Firehand (w/P.M. Griffin)
>
> The back of one of her Solar Queen books refered to Galactic Derelict as a
> Queen novel?

The folks who write those blurbs are notorious for not even knowing
anything about the book they are writing it for, and you expect them to
know about *other* books? :-)

Galactic Derelict is definitely *not* a Solar Queen book.

>>The Solar Queen Series:
>>Sargasso of Space
>>Plague Ship
>
> Sadly missing from my collection.
>
>>Voodoo Planet (usually found in a Ace double with Star Hunter)
>
> Ditto...

Merely because they've been out of print since 1970 or so...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:10:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

In mail you write:

> At 21:26 21/02/1999 -0500, "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> (Middle East Politics Mailing List) :-).  It seems to me that a tall thin
>>> structure would be inately more vulnerable to toppling, simply as a matter
>>> of balance (e.g., the Delta clipper toppled catastrophically). 
>>
>>The Delta-X toppled *after a major landing gear failure*. The Eifel
>>tower will fall over if you dynamite one of the legs. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got decks
>>perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the pad, some of
>>it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to thrust (landed VTOL
>>airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a landing gear failure.
>
> IIRC the delta clipper a rocket and doesn't appreciate having the rocket
> nozzles too near the ground.

<sigh>

I said "Delta-X" because the Delta Clipper does not exist (and isn't
likely to now). The sequences was going to be:

1. Build Delta-X
2. test to destruction (yes *they *expected that it'd get destroyed
   *somewhere* in the process of testing)
3. analyse data, especially that regarding what destroyed it.
4. Build Delta-Y (bigger, maybe manned) modifying design using info
   from step 4.
5. test to destruction
6. analyze data, especially that regarding what destroyed it.
7. Build Delta Clipper (full size, fully functional SSTO)
8. test
9. put into service
10. *if* there's a Delta Clipper failure, redesign around failure or
    redefine flight paramters to avoid problem.
11. goto 8

> A trav ship with contra grav doen't have this problem and can either
> rest on the CG plates or with them about 5cm from the ground.

Also, in a starport, you'll have "blast pits". You'll land with the
nozzles almost in the pit, which carries away the exhaust. After
cutoff, you extend a steel grating across the pit so that you won't
have to go fishing in the pit if you drop a part or a tool. 

> If the landing gear fails then it won't topple.

> If it is so tall that 5cm is enough to make it topple, then consider
> the ground pressure and tell me if this ship should really be
> landing on a planet.

> In any case, use a flying saucer design instead :-)

I prefer the "rounded cone" design. I also expect that landing legs
will come in sets of 6, just in case. You'd need two *adjacent*
failures to have trouble.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:30:00 EST
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

I'd like to add something that we came up with for the Sword Worlds in my old
campaign.  They went for a lot of spheres and flattened sphere designs for
their starships.  Why? Because a couple of us had old copies of H. Beam
Piper's "Star Vikings" from the 60's.  The cover art featured a couple of
spherical ships Looking a WHOLE lot like the CT "Broadswords") in the process
of making a planetary assault.  If you get a chance to read this book it's
pretty obvious that it provided the inspiration for the Traveller Sword
Worlds. It worked for us, and gave the Swordics a little more character.

Ken 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:08:34 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

At 17:35 22-2-99 PST, Shadow wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Whatever you do, however, do not buy Quag Keep!  It was a wretched piece of
>> drivel.
>
>But it's also the reason I think that Norton *would* agree to a gaming
>sourcebook based on her SF. 

At least it was better than *Garan the Eternal*. <shudder>


James

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:17:00 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Donosev work in progress

At 07:42 PM 22/02/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/22/99 1:04:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>brclif@digital.net writes:
>
><< Star Destroyers, 
>
>any Imperial wedge hull warship has that covered...
>
>Rebel Blockade Runners would be welcome. >>
>
>a little tougher, but some of the bulk freighters look vaguely like her,
>though for RPGing; I'd use a subsidized liner...
>

        A heavily modifed sub-liner....  ;-)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:19:55 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

At 07:12 AM 2/22/99 -0800, Jeff wrote:
>I would appreciate it if the participants in the In-Persona Debate would 
>identify their posts with the string "[Debate]" in the subject line, 
>followed by the persona name and sequence number - e.g., "[Debate] 
>Arbellatra 1".  Optionally, follow that by the name and sequence number 
>that your post is a response to: "[Debate] Soegz 4 resp Tukera 2".  This 
>will make it easier to sequence the posts later, for the archive.
>

And, with all respect to the participants, easier to delete the messages if
one isn't interested in the debate (which, BTW, I am...)

Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:23:22 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I haven't decided whether to include - or even recognize -
> discussion on the debate that's not in-persona.  It's somewhat
> contrary to the intent, and I'm not sure that it can easily be
> made to "fit".  But I'll think about it...
> 
One question:  Are the participants expected to play the personae of
_canonical_ movers-and-shakers circa 1120, or are participants free to
speak with the voices of the powerful in their campaigns (assuming that
said campaigns are set in the 3I circa 1120)?

> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:21:38 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

Apologies to all participants in said debate!  I have just demonstrated my
inability to read subject headers, i.e., they're quite clear NOW - if I
only bothered to pay attention to them... 


At 07:12 AM 2/22/99 -0800, Jeff wrote:
>I would appreciate it if the participants in the In-Persona Debate would 
>identify their posts with the string "[Debate]" in the subject line, 
>followed by the persona name and sequence number - e.g., "[Debate] 
>Arbellatra 1".  Optionally, follow that by the name and sequence number 
>that your post is a response to: "[Debate] Soegz 4 resp Tukera 2".  This 
>will make it easier to sequence the posts later, for the archive.
>

And, with all respect to the participants, easier to delete the messages if
one isn't interested in the debate (which, BTW, I am...)

Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #178
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 179



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Above the Law Level
GURPS Traveller
Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)
Nuetrino sensors
Re: Starships
Re: Bradley vs M113
A Compromise View on Starship Deck Orientation?
Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)
Re: tanks
Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #173
Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #175
[Debate] Prometheus 1
Re: Above the law
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: Starship aesthetics
Re: Visionary SF films...
Re: Above the Law Level
Re: Above the Law Level 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:07:02 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>    The bearer of this card is not to be interfered with
>    in ANY way and is to be rendered any and all
>    assistance.         XXX-XXXX

>[1]You used to be able to buy reproductions from ads in Soldier of
>Fortune. I don't know if you still can, but they'd make a good starting
>point for a prop, as well as being fun to show people.

I'll bet that THIS is the inspiration of the wording on the Imperial
Warrant.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:09:46 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller

Okay, I downloaded the GURPS character maker and now I'm seeing some things
that impress me...

Tell me, how do you randomly generate a character with this program?

Also, does GURPS Traveller have careers?

Those who know, tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller before I go out and
buy...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:17:00 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)


>>At 03:30 2-2-99, Doug Berry wrote:
>>>Start with...[snip]
>>>If you saw the awful movie _Starship Troopers_,...
>>
>>*Citizen of the Galaxy*, *The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress*, and *Methuselah's
>>Children* are also excellent.  I *don't* recommend most of his last few
>>books, though (other than *Friday*) - anything, say, after the first
>>two-thirds of *The Number of the Beast*.
>
>Agreed (from someone who *kept* reading them - just because), the last few
>books definitely were excercises in self-indulgence.
>
>No one has mentioned _Stranger in a Strange Land_ which supposedly put RH
>on the map in popular circles (and the work "Grok" into 60's sub-culture).
>Also _The Door Into Summer_ (nice time travel story) and _Podkayne of
>Mars_, a masterpiece of a juvenile fiction.  I found out the original
>ending was not at all like the one published (But I wouldn't want to put
>any spoilers here, so email me privately if you want to know what I'm
>talking about).
>
>_Grumbles from the Grave_ is for die-hard fans like me, or people who want
>to write.
>
>The remarkable thing about Heinlien (which he to some extent shared with
>Asimov) is the consistency of his fiction.  I want to name many more books,
>but will refrain.  Until the previously named later books, he wrote very
>good novels every time (ok, three more; _The Menace from Earth_, _The Past
>Through Tomorrow_(Connected short stories), and _The Puppet Masters_.
>
>For voting purposes, I would put _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ at the top
>for this crowd.  Especially since it features rock droppping.  Perhaps
>Starship Troopers (see prev comments re the unrelated movie) next.
>
>Heh heh, Battle Dress soldiers carrying nukes...just the kind of thing to
>spring on players.
>
>Pete
>                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
Funny, I agree with the assessment of Heinlein's later works and like you
Pete I read the newer stuff just because...Star Ship Troopers was the very
first science fiction book I ever read (I was 26 at the time) and I was
hooked from then on.  I just classed them as another genre' that fit into
the fast food catagory.  My vote for my favorite is Star Ship Troopers, yea
yea I know...still don't change my OPINION though.  BTW, I also loved the
Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry Harrison and his book that the movie
"Blade Runner" was based on.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:18:46 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Nuetrino sensors

OK, I give.  What exactly should the nuetrino sensors located on the front
and top of the Donosev's hull look like?  I've got copies of the Donosev
illos from the WBH, but they're only shown there as rounded squares with
circles in the middle.  Anyone have any idea what they really ought to look
like?

Thanks for the help.
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:34:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starships

In mail you write:

> I would have thought a robot with an expert system in "battle damage 
> repair" would be able to cope pretty well without being sentient. With a 
> full database of previous battle damage incidents and best practice 
> repair techniques it should be quicker and better adapted than a human.

The problem is that expert systems are only as good as the data. The
problem isn't the expert system. It's the sensor system that lets the
robot *identify* the damage. 

Also, a new weapon that creates a "unique" type of damage will fall
right through the "damage types list".

> With a mixture of a few living-sentient crew and a larger number of 
> non-sentient robots this should be more cost effective than living crew 
> alone?

Until the robots hit a new situation. Then it's up to the humans.

>>Full automation that is "self-directing" gets back to the "they're
>>intelligent" bit. It also has the problem that anything flexible enough
>>to handle unexpected situations is flexible enough to ignore *any* rule
>>when it feels like it.
>
> Well G:T specifically rules out fully sentient robots, so I was not 
> proposing these. A military ship with just living command staff end 
> everything else robots is doable under G:T rules. Commercial ships 
> *could* be totally automated (but boring).
>
> Gurps non-sentient Neural net robots probably come close for most 
> purposes.

Neural nets are the *perfect* example. You see, they aren't
"programmed". They are *trained*. Sure, you can then copy the trained
net into a new system. But the trouble is that without spending
*enormous* amounts of time analyzing the net, you don't know what the
"rules" it has "learned" are. Not that it matters, since you can't
change the rules themselves.

Neural nets have the *same* shortcomings as people, as well as the
disadvantage of not being able to easily be told "No! You've reached
the wrong conclusion!".

It also takes a lot of time to train the nets. And there's no guarantee
that they'll learn what you want. They'll learn the right responses to
the "test" situations (though even that can go wrong). But you can't
guarantee that they'll respond correctly to a "similar" situation that
they *weren't* trained on.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:31:42 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> The most recent Russian APC has a 120mm smoothbore. Only difference
> between it and the ones on their tanks is that the barrel is shorter.
> That probably makes it more of a target, but on the other hand, it also
> means that when they have to shoot at tanks, they actually have a
> chance! :-)
> 
If you're referring to the BMP-3, it has a 100mm gun-launcher, capable
of firing either a conventional round or an ATGM.  Since no FSU 100mm
round can penetrate the front armor of an M1-series tank, I would expect
the ATGM to be similarly futile against the front of an M1.  (BTW, no
current FSU/Russian tank carries a 120mm gun.  T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90/T-90+
tanks carry a 125mm smoothbore gun, which is much less effective than
the 120mm Rheinmetall gun carried by the M1A1/M1A2, the Leopard 2, and
(IIRC) the LeClerc, or the 120mm rifled gun on the Challenger series of
British tanks.

ObTrav:  I wonder just what the "Threat Inflation Quotient" is
concerning Zhodani, Sword World, and Solomani Confederation military
hardware....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:52:40 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: A Compromise View on Starship Deck Orientation?

When I posted a synopsis of the perpendicular-deck versus parallel-deck
debate, I tried to avoid letting my biases leak in too much.  I
attempted to summarize the views of the respective sides, without
judging directly my opinion of their validity.  Having said that, I
suggest that the following points might help resolve the debate (or at
least tone it down):

1.  Compact hull forms (spheres, cubes, etc.) are almost always best
designed as perpendicular-deck (hereafter perp-deck) ships.

2.  Elongated hull forms (needles, wedges, cylinders, etc.) may be
either parallel-deck (hereafter para-deck) or perp-deck, depending on
size and function of the ship in question.

3.  Ships of elongated hull form which are expected to spend significant
amounts of time on planetary surfaces, or within planetary atmospheres,
will be more likely to have para-decks than ships of similar hull form
which are not expected to spend much time in situations where a planet's
gravity is a significant influence on items within the ship's hull. 
Ships in the second category will have either para-deck or perp-deck
designs, depending on the function of the design, and the biases of the
architect.

4.  Elongated hull form ships of smaller size are more likely to have
para-decks, in order to ensure that each deck is of useful size.  In
other words, if the deck plan of a given perp-deck design cannot
accommodate various routine installations (bridge, individual
staterooms, etc.) on a single deck, while the deck plan of a para-deck
design can accommodate these installations on a single deck, then the
para-deck design has a better chance for approval by the purchasing
authority (whoever that may be).  On larger ships [first guesstimate: 
1000 Dtons or larger], most typical installations will fit on one deck,
and thus this factor will not be significant.  Since compact hull form
ships have fairly similar height/length/width dimensions, this
consideration is less likely at all ship sizes to be a factor in deck
configuration considerations.
 
5.  Vilani-influenced designs will tend to be compact hull forms, and
thus will normally be perp-deck designs.

6.  Solomani-influenced designs will tend to be elongated hull forms,
and thus may be either perp-deck or para-deck designs.

7.  None of the above paragraphs is definitive.  Individual architects
can feel free to deviate from these parameters as they see fit.

I have deliberately ignored the factor of inertial
compensation/artificial gravity, as the reliability of these
technologies is largely an "IYTU" issue.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:06:32 -0800
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)

>BTW, I also loved the
>Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry Harrison and his book that the >movie
"Blade Runner" was based on.
>Thom


Sorry Thom, but "Blade Runner " was based on the book "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep" by Phillip K. Dick (Who also had his stories "We Can
Remember It For You Wholesale" and "Screamers" made into movies. "We Can
Remember It For You Wholesale"  came out as the movie "Total Recall"). I
would like to know what Harry Harrison book you think "Blade Runner" was
based on.

Wayne Ewart
wewart@home.com
ICQ # 22113294
tc++ tm !tn-- t4>+ tg ?tt ?to ru ge+ 3i+ jt- au+ st+ ls pi+ c ta- he+ kk++
hi+ as++ va+ dr so- zh- da++ sy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:18:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: tanks

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
...
>survival due to their small population base. These tanks have frontally
>mounted engines as extra armor. Of course any frontal arc penetrations (and

  <ahem>  Citizen, Striker is quite clear in stating that armoured vehicles
have _rear_ mounted engines. Is remedial re-education really what you want?

...
>Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
>Imperial grav tanks?

  Under MT grav tanks are armoured equally all round (_and_ roughly egg-shaped)
to give them a decent chance when the original CT Imperial Marine grav-APC 
simply lands on them (_six-hundred_ metric tons of fun!)  :|

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:29:21 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)

>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:48:09 +0100
>From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
snip
>I think most GMs in Trav will have to come up with a handwave for why so
>much is still done by humans in Traveller. Especially astrogation seems a
>field that would gain much by being robotized.
>/Anders Backman
>Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
	My answer for why so much is done the way it is in Traveller is social
inertia.  It is done this way, it has ALWAYS been done this way.   I
explained this to my players before we started.  Traveller is big clunky
equipment in space.  If you go for complete automation, advanced robotics
and cyberware it would be another game.

									Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:33:42 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #173

>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:55:40 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF
>
>Oh, by the way, Rob.  I downloaded Acrobat Reader just so I could read 102
>Vehicles.  It looks like a great supplement!  Any chance of adding some
>pictures to it in the future?
>
>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?
>
>- --Clif
	Distributing files in Word format would be a VERY bad idea. (IMO)  Word is
going to be a much more specialized format.  It is not going to be
supported on as many platforms.  If you use a new version of Word it is not
backward compatible.  Word files are subject to virus infestation.  PDF
files are multi platform.  You can copy and paste from them if the security
is set to allow it.  PDFs are also easier to get to print on different
paper sizes which can be important.

									Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:44:12 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton (good source material for Traveller refs and players)

At 17:18 22-2-99 PST, Shadow wrote:
>I also like the idea of a universe with Zacathans, the "bird" species I
>can't rember the name of

Trystians

>and all the minor races such as the Salariki. 

And the Faltharians, and Kartr's people (both subraces of humans), and the
people from Janus and Warlock, and the Brothers in Fur, and....

(Anybody try doing anything with Niven & Pournelle's fithp?)

>A *great* starting point for a campaign would be a few generations
>after "Star Rangers". Re-expanding from an earth that now has some
>aliens as well as humans on it...

Ooooooohhh....


James

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:24:02 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #175

>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:10:02 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

>"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>Also, on the PDF debate, I want to point out that it sucks that you can't
>>copy and paste the text in that format.  Why not Microsoft Word?

>1) You can if it is enabled. It defaults to on so the author gets the final
>chance. I'm not sure if Rob enabled that feature.
>2) Word sucks. Big clunky and platform dependent. We may as well use
>ClarisWorks which is equally ubiquitous on the Mac. Arguing for RTF which
>is sort of platform independent would have been more rational, but at least
>Acrobat allows you to embed fonts and preserve the layout.
>Dom
	There are ways around PDF security.  When this discussion started I spent
about 5 minutes checking.  I already knew the document security is
dependent on the viewer.  If someone wants to write a viewer that does not
support security they don't have to support it.  This having been said you
CAN extract the text from a protected PDF document.  Ghostscript with the
right addons will do it.  I have had people tell me some of the Linux
viewers have not implemented security. (Not verified at my end.)   There
are some projects on the net to crack the password.  Generally though, I
don't see a real reason to worry about it.  If you are using the
information in what could be construed as fair use, type it into another
document.  Rob Prior has a very valid point for not allowing people to copy
& paste from the files he has provided for FREE (Thanks).

								Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:41:49 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: [Debate] Prometheus 1

Let us take a close look at our Imperium. I think if we peer behind the facade 
we will not like what we see. We see a throne rent with politicing and nepotism. 
We see countless worlds ruled be vicious thugs and despots where honour and 
justice count for naught. We see greedy corporations which act as states unto 
themselves. We see a bureacracy which holds secrecy and conformity as the 
greatest of virtues. We see those who dare to speak out struck down by 
assassins in the night. This is not an Empire governed by honour and law, this 
is a depotism ruled by fear and expediancy.

Nor are our citizens ignorant of these things, despite the best efforts of many of 
those who hold power. Every year see's a call for change, every year see's 
some of those who call grow disillusioned and turn to violence. Behind the 
mask of stability lurks the spectre of bloody rebellion. How often have we seen 
the obvious potential of a junior member of the Imperial house wasted to avoid 
any potential rival to succession? How often have we seen a voice of reasoned 
change cut down only to be replaced by a demagog calling for revolution? How 
often have we seen blatant corruption or injustice ignored in the name of 
expediancy?

It is time to put an end to this self imposed blindness. It is time to move 
beyond the shakles of the Warrant of Restoration and move to a government 
based on sound legal and democractic principles. We are eleven hundred years 
removed from Cleon I, and we have likewise outgrown this scrap of paper. Now 
many will claim that this is lunacy or herecy or both. Why should we throw 
away the foundation of an Empire which has lasted more than one thousand 
years? I say the question is not why, but when. The Warrant lays at the very 
heart of our current maliase. The Warrant provided an excellant foundation to 
rebuild civilisation and roll back the curtans of the Long Night, it provided simple 
certainty and did not challange those entrenched in power. Its simple 
expediancy allowed for civilisation to return. However it could never be more 
than an interim constitution; it allows those very despots who it did not threaten 
to remain, it builds a government on the whims of a single person (and we need 
look no further than Cleon III to see where that can lead), and above all it allows 
for no disention or dispute. The Imperium is rotten at its very core, its 
foundations are built in sand. Without change the question is not will the 
Empire fall but when.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:09:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Above the law

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Actually, the son of the high party member has a lesser chance of even
>being arrested. He'll be well known, and if a rookie cop goes to arrest
>him the odds are good that another cop will pull him aside and warn
>him. And if *that* doesn't happen, you can be sure that the son will
>inform him. 
> 
>You know, the standard "Do you know who I am?" bit. 

That reminds me of one of my all-time favourite jokes. It's from an episode
of Rowan Atkinson's _The Thin Blue Line_ where this young supercillious
upper-class twit who has just been brought into the police station leans
across the desk and sneers at the desk sergeant: "Do you know who my
father is?". And the sergeant replies completely dead-pan: "I'm afraid I
can't help you there, Sir. Have you tried asking your mother?"

>A much older example is the "carte blanche" Cardinal Richilieu gave to
>Milady deWinter.

Ahh... I remember how pleased one of the players in my Paranoia campaign was
when he got his hand on a document saying:

		It is with the Computer's knowledge,
		and for the good of Alpha Complex,
		that the bearer of this has done
		what he has done.

Some people never learn...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Kettelman bristled. Nothing got him angrier than when
         people implied that he was paranoid. It made him feel
         persecuted."
                                --Robert Sheckley

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:30:11 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ----------
> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: GURPS Traveller
> Date: Monday, 22 February, 1999 11:09 PM
> 
> Okay, I downloaded the GURPS character maker and now I'm seeing some
things
> that impress me...
> Tell me, how do you randomly generate a character with this program?

GURPS is not really oriented to random character generation; as you know
it's a point-build system with the emphasis on designing rather than
randomizing character design.  However, there was an article describing 
semi-random Traveller chargen in Pyramid (www.sjgames.com/pyramid/). 
(Basically, build a low-point value character and then run it through a
random system equivalent to the basic Traveller career system.

> Also, does GURPS Traveller have careers?

The G:Traveller book does have templates from many careers, but you're not
required to use them.  If you can imagine a character concept, you can
probably build it (assuming you have the points).  
 
> Those who know, tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller before I go out and
> buy...

How about we tell you what's good about it instead?  Some of us actually
like it.  I think it does a very good job of capturing the feel of
Traveller and couples it with a very playable rules system.

You may also want to download GURPS Lite, a free PDF version of the basic
GURPS rules.  It's on the SJGames site somewhere.  (www.sjgames.com)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:16:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

At 05:47 PM 2/22/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> But to be honest, I would think that reading *some* science-fiction would
>> be a good idea, and I've mined HHGTTG for several good ideas.  (Residents
>> of Mora fear the coming of the Perpetual Floating Cocktail Party.)
>
>I'd be more worried about hearing that Disaster Area was planning a
>concert on my planet!

They're spending a year dead for tax purposes...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:23:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

At 03:19 PM 2/22/99 -0800, you wrote:

>There aready exists certain racial / species traits to their general ship
>designs.

The K'kree tend to use *huge* discs.

>For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the cargo
>pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes sense to
>me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock the
>containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.

I've built one of these:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/camel.html

>Warships, IMHO, should just plain LOOK nasty to deal with.  Fear factor is
>not irrelevant, especially if you flash a picture at the PC's and say "This
>just showed up in front of you".  Done that too :)

Once you have a moment to breathe, perhaps at BayCon, I like to speak with
you about doing some illos for my ship designs....

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:41:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Visionary SF films...

At 08:27 PM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I SAW "A Boy and His Dog"...  I can't picture that strange work as a Trav
>adventure, though I DO believe having seen it when I was a teen inspired the
>milieu which is the basis of the springboard for my current campaign.
>
>"AB&HD" seems more like a long Twilight Zone episode.

Well, it was written by Harlan Ellison.

For Traveller use, you could use the culture and setting for a devastated
world.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:07:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level

At 05:02 PM 2/22/99 EST, you wrote:

>	But remember that inside the Imperium each world will have one or >more
members of the noble hierarchy responsible to/for it.  All Imperial 
>citizens will understand the importance of the nobility, regardless of local 
>government type.  So I think you could have a standard system of reaction to 
>high SOC stat, as long as that status was 11 or better (Knights and up).  
>But a SOC 10 business man from New Hong Kong  would be out of luck on Novo 
>Lennigrad, while Baron Chumley would likely get the respect that was "his 
>due", for fear of Imperial Intervention.

Which brings up two points:

We've seen in the last few years that many leaders and countries are
willing to perform in ways that invite retaliation.  Iraq has continued to
frustrate UN inspection teams, and lock on to US warplanes.  The threat
(and action) of retaliatory air strikes doesn't seem to faze them.

Perhaps Baron Chumley would have a "get out of jail free" card, but the
Party propaganda masters would play up the evils inherent in the system.
How dare an accident of birth allow this criminal to go free!  Chumley
would also probably be asked to leave the planet and never return, which
could be bad if Chumley happened to be Baron Novo Leningrad!

The other concept is diplomatic immunity.  In the modern day, diplomats and
their families and staffs are immune from legal prosecution in the country
they are working in.  This prevents the host nation from taking revenge on
the diplomats for the actions of their nation.

In the Third Imperium, who would have Immunity?  As I see it, Nobles who
actually do the Imperium's work would carry diplomatic passports, along
with their families and staff.  The Baron of Efate would be immune as long
as he was inside the Imperium and doing the Emperor's business.  Now, let's
say that the Baron committed a heinous crime.  The government of Efate
could petition the Baron's superior (in this case Norris) for relief and
the freedom to try the Baron.  This privilege would not be given lightly,
since it opens up the nobility to a great deal of scrutiny.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:56:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

At 04:16 PM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Where can I take an honest look at ACQ?  I'd like a system which determines
>what part of the body is injured.

ACQ is currently being edited by that lovely BITS crew, and should be
avalible for purchase in a few months.

ACQ does not use a hit-location system, but instead gives increased damage
for attacks that roll five below and ten below the target number (double
and triple damage, respectively.)
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #179
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 180



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Nuetrino sensors
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: M2A3 and M3A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle Systems (BFVS) (http://www.fas.org/man/d
re: Reavers Deep
From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Modular Ships (was re: Starship Aesthetics)
re: Neutrino Sensors
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: GURPS Traveller
Starship weapons vs. planet
Intellectual Property
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign
RE: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:08:47 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Nuetrino sensors

At 20:18 22/02/1999 -0800, "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> wrote:
>OK, I give.  What exactly should the nuetrino sensors located on the front
>and top of the Donosev's hull look like?  I've got copies of the Donosev
>illos from the WBH, but they're only shown there as rounded squares with
>circles in the middle.  Anyone have any idea what they really ought to look
>like?

A large tank of cleaning fluid?

Since anything that I remember about neutrinoes means that several metres
of superdense won't affect the sensor activity, an armoured sphere should
be fine (armoured as in ship's normal hull)

To get direction information, you probably need an array of these spheres.

The detectors probably have some nuclear damper technology involved
(though its weak force control not strong force that is required)
but I cannot see any reason for putting these outside the armour.

The problem for the artist is that none of this technology actually
requires detectors on the surface of the ship - right in the middle sould
work just as well.

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:13:01 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
to know what sucks about it!

- --Clif

>> Those who know, tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller before I go out
>and
>> buy...
>
>How about we tell you what's good about it instead?  Some of us actually
>like it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:21:56 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

At 18:10 22/02/1999 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:
>> IIRC the delta clipper a rocket and doesn't appreciate having the rocket
>> nozzles too near the ground.
>
><sigh>
>
>I said "Delta-X" because the Delta Clipper does not exist (and isn't
>likely to now).

Oops!

And I said "Delta Clipper" because I wasn't paying attention.

(you'd even put the correct name in your message, only a few lines
 before.)

You have to get used to neat ideas going nowhere.
The UK's spaceship program being a very good definition of "nowhere"

:-(

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:23:56 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: M2A3 and M3A3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle Systems (BFVS) (http://www.fas.org/man/d

>Did they accidentally put a picture of an M113 on this page?
>
>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2.htm

Yep, Top row, right side, looks like an M113 "ambulance" with IFOR markings
on an airport tarmac.

The site is huge, you gotta give em a couple of errors.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:55:44 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Reavers Deep

Derek Stanley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
I'm looking of a map showing the X-Boat routes through Reavers Deep.

Anyone who's got one give me a shout.
>>>>>>>>>>
There shouldn't be any (or at least many). Reaver's Deep is a collection
of small client states and independent governments, the X-Boat network
is an Imperial-run communications network for intra-Imperial messages.

Communications in Reaver's Deep will be by merchant ship, private
courier and military ship.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:10:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

Jesse,

The following is from a post by Andrew Moffatt-Vallance on Classic 
Vilani Ship Design, as provided in his Prometheus Rising data.  
Perhaps it might help in developing a visualization of Classic 
Vilani starship design.  Hope it helps.

Andrew wrote:

> What are the characteristics of a "classic" Vilani starship from
> the ZS era? Here are my thoughts with notes on why I believe that
> Vilani ships would have been like that (please excuse the "hasty"
> disorganised nature of them).

> 1 - Fuel and supplies limited to 4 weeks with no Type 4 (extended,
> fully closed loop LS). Initially I put this down to poor Vilani
> biomedical technology. This is not the case, because in their
> early space exploration they launched several sublight missions to
> nearby systems. Obviously their technology is quite capable of
> extended LS. The reason they don't use it is political. By severely
> restricting the endurance of starships, you also equally restrict
> their ability to operate outside of the established trade routes
> and even more importantly, outside of the ZS borders.

> 2 - Only military ships will carry fuel purification plants. The
> reason is the same as above. By this simple expediant the ZS
> greatly hampers the chance of technology leaking and greatly
> hampers the creation of "free traders" who operate outside of
> centralised control.

> 3 - Flatterned disk hull form - It gives a good surface/volume
> ratio at a reasonable cost. Plus it fits with the few pictures of
> Vilani ships in V&V.

> 4 - Civilian armarment - Civilian ships will be unarmed, there is
> simply no need for civilian ships to carry armarment in the ZS.
> Since the ZS effectively controls shipbuilding, they can prevent
> piracy before it starts. In these circumstances arming civilian
> shipping creates a dangerous threat to the central government.
> However, due to that very centralised nature of the ZS, I think it
> is reasonable to assume that all civilian vessels in the ZS are
> also naval auxilaries. Therefore, I think it is also reasonable to
> assume that their designs include one or more empty turret slots
> and reserve power to allow them to be armed if mobilised.

> 5 - Military armarment - The main armarment on military ships will
> be missiles, the Vilani rarely if ever use spinal mounts. Since
> the Vilani had essentially unified their world before space flight
> and then did not face any military threats at TL 9, I think their
> logical weapon of choice would be missiles. And since all their
> opponents in the Consolidation Wars effectively received their
> technology from the Vilani, I don't think it unreasonable to assume
> that they did not encounter spinal mounts until they met the
> Terrans. This not only fits with the board game "Imperium", but it
> also fits well with the fact that they never developed meson guns,
> and curiously the delay the Terrans had in developing them. Meson
> guns are TL 11, so the the Vilani could have developed them, and
> the Terrans also could have developed them much earlier. However if
> the Vilani did not use spinal mounts it is unlikely that they would
> develop meson guns; and since a large portion of the Terrans rapid
> advance from TL 9 to TL 11 can be explained by the large scale
> coping of Vilani tech, this would delay their own development of
> the meson gun.

> 6 - Naming practises - Military ships are assigned only a penant
> number and they use a type designation. They are far more like an
> aircraft than a ship. The crews living quarters are actually on at
> the base and they are assigned to ships on an "as needed" basis.
> Therefore the crews tend not to build up any lasting attachments to
> their vessels. Civilian vessels on the other hand are named and
> assigned class designation (as per current naval practice). This is
> because for the crews of the civilian ships, they are not only
> their "workplace" but their home as well. Therefore civilian crews
> would be likely to have a strong emotional attachment to their
> ships.

> 7 - Passenger capacity - This is likely to be lower than usual. In
> the ZS people are tied to a particular geographic location
> (related to their workplace). Therefore it does not seem
> unreasonable to assume that passenger volumes are lower than in
> latter periods. Also I would imagine that the central government
> may discourage travel on a "divide and rule" principle  (though
> this point is quite debatable).

> 8 - Crewing - Due to their caste system Vilani ships would not use
> double manning (ie one job = one crew, no Steward/gunners etc.).
> Similarly I would not expect them to use high automation. Also
> every ship should include at least one steward (a Shuligii) to
> prepare the food.

> 9 - Size - The centralised nature of the ZS and the nature of
> fusion plants at TL 11 would indicate to me that most Vilani
> merchant ships will be large. I don't think the 200 Td free trader
> is a Vilani design. This view is supported by V&V which describes
> the 600 Td subisidised merchant as a "Vilani inspired design".

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:29:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you land,
> or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more convenient
> for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool that way.

Reason two makes no sense. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take a look at the Kinunir and the Broadsword. Both have small craft
that dock internally, and the small craft have a length that is a significant
fraction of the longest axis of the ship.

The Kinunir has decks paralell to thrust, and the small craft docks paralell
to thrust. You can open the entire side of the pinnace onto one deck,
accessing the entire cargo bay at once. The small craft bay is confined
to one deck, which I see as a design and layout plus. Of course, Kinunir
lands sometimes...it's nice to have the Pinnace able to shut off artificial
grav while the ship is landed.

The Broadsword has decks perpendicular to thrust, and the small craft
dock paralell to thrust. You have to access the cutter's bridge from the
Broadsword's bridge deck, the drives from the lowest deck, and the cargo 
from several decks (actually from open bays several decks high). 
Not to mention that thecargo bay is rotated 90 degrees from the cargo 
access area of the cutters - you have to load and service the
ATV's either in zero G, or while the ATV is sitting on it's tail. Not to mention
the fact that the forward part of the cutter's cargo bay is about ten meters
off the deck you access it from. Though the M.C. Escher-ish view of
people walking along the spiralled grav plates in the docking tube might
be a bit disconcerting to those unfamiliar with space travel...<G>

This is less relevant for ships that are just tossing docking tubes between
each other, as the tube can either be in zero-G or have grav plates in 
it that gradually adjust "down" so you walk from one ship to the other
easily, even if the two ships are using different deck orientations.

Hmmm, I just thought of another reason for paralell-to-thrust deckplans
on landable ships, especially military ones: you've landed your scout
ship to do some commando work on a backwater planet and don't want
it seen. Would you rather it sat on it's tail, or on it's side? The latter seems
easier to hide.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:40:19 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Modular Ships (was re: Starship Aesthetics)

Doug Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the cargo
>pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes sense to
>me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock the
>containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.

I've built one of these:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/camel.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Me too...  http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/starship/rifthighliner.htm

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:47:43 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Neutrino Sensors

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The problem for the artist is that none of this technology actually
requires detectors on the surface of the ship - right in the middle sould
work just as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One reason for putting them outside - they don't need full-time life support.
Put all the shirtsleeve stuff together in the middle of the ship and it's
easier to circulate air and heat, so move the stuff that doesn't require
shirtsleeves to the outside.

Another reason to have them on the outside is easy replacement. This
ship is a sensor platform, she probably gets the latest sensor upgrades
as soon as the IISS can afford them. It may be easier to have all the
sensors on external, easy to swap pods rather than having to rip things
out of the core of the ship.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:56:54 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

Please ignore my previous post, it seemed to get scrambled by my editing.
Here it is, corrected:

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you land,
> or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more convenient
> for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool that way.

Reason two makes no sense. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Take a look at the Kinunir and the Broadsword. Both have small craft
that dock internally, and the small craft have a length that is a significant
fraction of the longest axis of the ship.

The Kinunir has decks paralell to thrust, and the small craft docks paralell
to thrust. You can open the entire side of the pinnace onto one deck,
accessing the entire cargo bay at once. The small craft bay is confined
to one deck, which I see as a design and layout plus. Of course, Kinunir
lands sometimes...it's nice to have the Pinnace able to shut off artificial
grav while the ship is landed.

The Broadsword has decks perpendicular to thrust, and the small craft
dock paralell to thrust. You have to access the cutter's bridge from the
Broadsword's bridge deck, the drives from the lowest deck, and the cargo 
from several decks (actually from open bays several decks high). 
Not to mention that the cargo bay is rotated 90 degrees from the cargo 
access area of the cutters - you have to load and service the
ATV's either in zero G, or while the ATV is sitting on it's tail. Not to mention
the fact that the forward part of the cutter's cargo bay is about ten meters
off the deck you access it from. 

This is less relevant for ships that are just tossing docking tubes between
each other, as the tube can either be in zero-G or have grav plates in 
it that gradually adjust "down" so you walk from one ship to the other
easily, even if the two ships are using different deck orientations. Though
the M.C. Escher-ish view of people walking along the spiralled grav plates in 
the docking tube might be a bit disconcerting to those unfamiliar with space 
travel...<G>

Hmmm, I just thought of another reason for paralell-to-thrust deckplans
on landable ships, especially military ones: you've landed your scout
ship to do some commando work on a backwater planet and don't want
it seen. Would you rather it sat on it's tail, or on it's side? The latter seems
easier to hide.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:01:54 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

> Okay, I downloaded the GURPS character maker and now I'm seeing some things
> that impress me...
> 
> Tell me, how do you randomly generate a character with this program?

You don't.  Or rather, you could do it ... just grab the dice and enter 
what you roll. :)
 
> Also, does GURPS Traveller have careers?

It has "Unfinished Templates."
 

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:05:17 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Starship weapons vs. planet

How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
looking for an order of magnitude here....
	. a vehicle?
	. a house?
	. a large building?
	. a block?
	. a manufacturing complex?
	. a town?
	. a city?
Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit other
ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

The kind of question one has to ask before putting various weapons at
the PCs disposal... and to figure out how firm various governmental
agencies will be.

(PC on planet) "Charlie, you have our position?"
(PC on ship) "Yup.  Been tracking your comm signal for a while."
(PC on planet) "Due north, there's a truck driving away... it has the
bad guys.  Hit it."
(PC on ship) "Yes, Captain."
(GM at table) Sounds of frantic flipping through books and punching at
calculators as the ship's laser fires.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:32:48 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Intellectual Property

Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net> writes:
>Rob Prior has a very valid point for not allowing people to copy
>& paste from the files he has provided for FREE (Thanks).

It's not that I don't want people to use the material. (If that was the
issue, I wouldn't have made it available!)

It's that I want to ensure that I get credit for my work.  Ever since my
first Internet exploration revealed one of my Traveller programs, with
someone else's name attached, I've been touchy about this. The flaming I
got from certain former TML members didn't help, either. 

I could enable text selection. Would that allow people to copy stats out? 

And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:51:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

ringrose@ascent.com writes:
> How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
> orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
> looking for an order of magnitude here....
>      . a vehicle?
>      . a house?
>      . a large building?
Depending on yield, but probably in this range.  As a rule of thumb, figure
that secondary blast effects (from the primary beam vaporizing things) are
comparable to one kilo of TNT per 5-10 megajoules of beam energy; the low-end
values are appropriate for meson accelerators and other weapons that are
efficient at creating explosions, the high-end value for lasers and the like.

> Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
> Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit other
> ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?

Limited by atmospheric effects, but if you're firing _down_ through atmosphere
accuracy is unlikely to be a problem (firing the other way is likely to
substantially degrade accuracy).

> (PC on planet) "Charlie, you have our position?"
> (PC on ship) "Yup.  Been tracking your comm signal for a while."
> (PC on planet) "Due north, there's a truck driving away... it has the
> bad guys.  Hit it."
> (PC on ship) "Yes, Captain."
> (GM at table) Sounds of frantic flipping through books and punching at
> calculators as the ship's laser fires.

Nah.  Just determine if the ship is overhead, give the PC on the ship a sensor
task to locate the truck, a pretty easy gunnery task to shoot the truck, and
assume the truck disappears if hit.  Then have the PCs unable to find the bad
guy's bodies ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:45:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 08:13 AM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
>for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
>to know what sucks about it!

It's utterly awful.

In fact, all of Traveller is a cess-pit of despair and pathos.  We are
trapped, but there is still hope for you!  Run, before you become as we are!!!

Save yourself, Clif!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:57:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 11:05 AM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
>orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
>looking for an order of magnitude here....

a 95-Mj laser will do about 43d6 damage to whatever it hits, with a beam
about a meter wide.  That's a pretty standard merchant ship laser.

Since missiles are nuclear weapons, the smallest of them is a 10kt nuke.
This is one reason why IMTU missiles are exclusively military weapons.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:02:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 12:36 AM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote:

>G:T Imperial Army (Proposal Only)
it's in

>ACQ
in the hands of the editors, waiting to hear about any needed changes.

>101st Spaceborne
Severe writer's block there.

>G:T Imperial Army
>Illuminated Traveller
>Lunion

I'll tell the guy who writes me weekly asking about Lunion that you've made
it my lowest priority, and forward his mail on to you.

To be honest, I work in a very piecemeal fashion.  In one session in front
of the computer I might design a couple of ships, fiddle with a planet
write-up, and play a lot of Nethack before I get to what I was supposed to
be doing.  When I try to force myself, I'm never satisfied with the result.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:10:33 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign

The problem is always "The more you make, the more you spend" :)  With my
current bills I squeak by with about $200 extra a month if I'm lucky, and
that tends to quickly get eaten up by DVD's, CD's, computer games, or going
to the movies.  If I could ever get some of those bills knocked out
completely, I'd be a happy little camper.

Jesse




>D'oh!  Looks like you're gonna be at your real job for a while.  : )
>
>Anyway, my pledge stands, but you'd be looking for about 120 equal pledges,
>and I don't think this list will come up with that.
>
>--Clif
>
>P.S.:  If I made what you did, I wouldn't be worrying about winning the
>lottery.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:31:25 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: RE: Starship weapons vs. planet

Someone more knowledgeable in physics please confirm or correct me on
this, but wouldn't a large beam weapon like a meson gun or destroy the
atmosphere it touches? That alone could generate terrific
hurricane-force winds as the atmosphere tries to adjust to the
newly-created "column of vacuum" left by the weapon.

THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

People are more easily led than driven.  (Jewish Proverb)



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Anthony Jackson [SMTP:ajackson@molly.iii.com]
> Sent:	23 February 1999 10:51
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Cc:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
> 
> ringrose@ascent.com writes:
> > How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
> > orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
> > looking for an order of magnitude here....
> >      . a vehicle?
> >      . a house?
> >      . a large building?
> Depending on yield, but probably in this range.  As a rule of thumb,
> figure
> that secondary blast effects (from the primary beam vaporizing things)
> are
> comparable to one kilo of TNT per 5-10 megajoules of beam energy; the
> low-end
> values are appropriate for meson accelerators and other weapons that
> are
> efficient at creating explosions, the high-end value for lasers and
> the like.
> 
> > Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
> > Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit
> other
> > ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?
> 
> Limited by atmospheric effects, but if you're firing _down_ through
> atmosphere
> accuracy is unlikely to be a problem (firing the other way is likely
> to
> substantially degrade accuracy).
> 
> > (PC on planet) "Charlie, you have our position?"
> > (PC on ship) "Yup.  Been tracking your comm signal for a while."
> > (PC on planet) "Due north, there's a truck driving away... it has
> the
> > bad guys.  Hit it."
> > (PC on ship) "Yes, Captain."
> > (GM at table) Sounds of frantic flipping through books and punching
> at
> > calculators as the ship's laser fires.
> 
> Nah.  Just determine if the ship is overhead, give the PC on the ship
> a sensor
> task to locate the truck, a pretty easy gunnery task to shoot the
> truck, and
> assume the truck disappears if hit.  Then have the PCs unable to find
> the bad
> guy's bodies ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:34:44 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

>Nah.  Just determine if the ship is overhead, give the PC on the ship a sensor
>task to locate the truck, a pretty easy gunnery task to shoot the truck, and
>assume the truck disappears if hit.  Then have the PCs unable to find the bad
>guy's bodies ;)
>


Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:31:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

Jeff Groteboer writes:
> Someone more knowledgeable in physics please confirm or correct me on
> this, but wouldn't a large beam weapon like a meson gun or destroy the
> atmosphere it touches? That alone could generate terrific
> hurricane-force winds as the atmosphere tries to adjust to the
> newly-created "column of vacuum" left by the weapon.

Nah, 'destroying' atmosphere won't happen.  You'll ionize the atmosphere and
create secondary effects near the beam path comparable to a lightning bolt,
however.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:39:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

Jeff Groteboer wrote:
> 
> Someone more knowledgeable in physics please confirm or correct me on
> this, but wouldn't a large beam weapon like a meson gun or destroy the
> atmosphere it touches? That alone could generate terrific
> hurricane-force winds as the atmosphere tries to adjust to the
> newly-created "column of vacuum" left by the weapon.
>

No more so than a violent lightning strike. There will be a heckuva BANG
as the laser superheats the air it's going through, but it doesn't
'destroy' the air, merely heats it to a plasma state.

In fact it would probably look remarkably like a very straight lightning
bolt.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #180
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 181



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Reavers Deep 
TCS Campaign Starting
GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Off topic: Bad Equipment
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: Starship aesthetics
Re: Finding Time & PDF
Re: GURPS Traveller
re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Starship aesthetics
Re: Intellectual Property
Navagation Beacons
Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:41:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> > Then have the PCs unable to find the bad
> >guy's bodies ;)
> >
> 
> Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
> Jesse

Nope, this is great for the PC's...no corpus to habeas! "Killed _who_
officer? I don't see any bodies..."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:44:34 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

>>Tall structures can be designed to be stable in themselves and not need any
>>bracing or cable stays to hold them up. Skyscrapers are designed this way,
>>and starships can be too. This is the point many find hard to accept, and
>>the topic is too involved to go into here. If you want a more detailed
>>explanation email me privately.
>
>Skyscrapers don't have foundations?

The foundations of skyscrapers prevent them from sinking into the ground.
Foundations do not provide lateral bracing, and could cause significant
damage to the surroundings in high winds or earthquakes if they did. This
has been gone over in excruciating detail previously.

>>Speaking as someone who has been in several buildings designed by Arthur
>>Erickson, I strongly dispute the notion that minimizing up/down movement is
>>"good ergonomics". I don't know many office workers who pine for mile-long
>>corridors instead of elevators.
>
>Easy: Every office worker, as soon as the building catches fire. I've
>also never had to wait for a corridor.

Elevator shafts are more effective fire barriers than corridors because the
shafts are interrupted by elevator cars, unless the corridors have fire
doors every few dozen meters and slow traffic even more.

Or do you mean that workers in a building on fire with corridors would jump
out the windows instead of using the elevator or corridor? The desirability
of this depends on how high the building is off the ground and has nothing
to do with how the corridors happen to be laid out. Moreover, this option
is hardly relevant for starship crews.

You are truly fortunate if you have never had to wait for a corridor;
managing human traffic is a significant problem in many buildings like
schools, theaters, airports, and sport arenas. People often have to wait
for an opening in a corridor when pedestrian flows intersect or at blind
intersections. This can happen even in low-occupancy buildings which are
poorly designed. For example (pretends to think hard), that spot outside
the bridge of the Sulieman-class scout/courier where 3 doorways open into
the same hex. One from the floor. That must be real interesting in an
emergency.

>Define `high thrust'. I mean, in a 3G ship, your average human is going
>to be nailed to the floor by the force. This isn't the transient G-
>forces of a manoeuvring atmospheric fighter; it's a steady state force.
>Even 2Gs will degrade the crew's ability to perform basic functions.

I specifically stated a 1 G acceleration in my message. I agree that
inertial compensation has advantages outside of providing artificial
gravity; another poster mentioned it is necessary for jump travel.

However, in all these cases perpendicular decks are preferable because you
don't have to spend effort conteracting the normal operation of your ship
drives. Every G that frees up can be used for more artificial gravity, ship
acceleration, or lower costs.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:59:21 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Reavers Deep 

I saw a request for xboat routes for Reavers Deep, and so I pulled this
out of my sector information file (which I'll put on my website any
day now...)

Reavers' Deep	sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		sector info in HP #5 (CT)
		Ea (J) subsector in FT #1 (CT)
		Scotian Deep (F) subsector in FT #2 (CT)
		material in Andrew Keith Gamelords adventures (CT)
		Drexilthar (K) subsector in Pilot's Guide to the
			Drexilthar Subsector (CT)
		Urlaqqash (L) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in TD #16 (CT)
		Caledon (G) subsector and library data in TC #5
			and TC #7 (??)
		unknown info (TNE-related) in TC #6 (VT)
		portions of K/L/O/P subsectors in Letters of
			Marque (CT)

So the xboat map is in TD #16, and hopefully that other information
will help you as well.


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:02:35 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: TCS Campaign Starting

We have one opening remaining, the fine world of New Colchis:

B) New Colchis
	1327	New Colchis	A8959AA-C N x x
	1426	Herzenlust	E995765-6 x x G

If you're interested in joining us, drop me an e-mail...

In addition, Steven Bonneville has offered to build the neutrals :)
and provide TNS-style correspondence for the war...


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:08:25 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

A couple of gearheads brought up a good point about my GT 
program.  Perhaps this is better explained by someone who really 
knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt (see: Mr Pulver).  Because, to 
be quite honest, I don't know anymore.

GURPS Traveller turrets.  

If I have a turret and load three weapons on it, how many spaces 
does it take up?  One or four?  

If it is one, then can I assume that the space allocated for the turret 
contains the "slice" of reactor power and all the other things 
necessary for the weapons (missiles, sand buckets, etc), no matter 
which of the weapons I put on it?

What about Hull Mount?  It gets you nothing if the answer is one, 
except for less space (2 dTons less).  And fewer firing arcs (which 
isn't really a problem with the new combat system in GT).  

What is the use of Hull Mounting a Bay Weapon?  You get nothing 
there either except for loss of firing arcs (see above statement on 
firing arcs).

If the answer is four, then does that mean a Bay Weapon takes up 
100 spaces and not just 50?  Also, if it is four, then, to me, that 
explains why you can put three hull mount weapons on the hull and 
and take up the room for one "hardpoint."  You gain one space.

Hull Mounting does cost a little less, though, so I guess that would 
be the only benefit I can see from it.

As you can see, I am quite confused on this whole issue!!!  HELP!!!

Ah'm truly sorry if'n this's brung up b'fore.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:22 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

>How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
>orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
>looking for an order of magnitude here....
>	. a vehicle?
>	. a house?
>	. a large building?
>	. a block?
>	. a manufacturing complex?
>	. a town?
>	. a city?
>Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
>Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit other
>ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?

Page 80 of the MT referees manual describes the various starship weapons
and their damages, penetrations, etc.

A TL13 Beam Laser can fire from Far Orbit and do 600 damage (in personal
combat terms) with a danger space of 45 (squares, 1.5m across, in a
circular pattern, so a circular area about 10m across).  The weapon will
attack all targets in that area, with a penetration of 37.5 (75/5 assuming
the ship is at planetary range - halve once) at the center, halved every
1.5 meters from that point.

The to hit roll is an indirect fire task.  You need forward observer skill
to do this well.  The task is difficult (roll 11+ on 2D, modified by
forward observer skill) and the fire arrives at least one round after
called;  in fact in the example above (planetary range) it would arrive *6*
turns after calling it in.

In addition, what is targeted (in my interpretation, YMMV) is a particular
location on a map, not a moving vehicle.  Fire arrives at the location
specified (5 minutes after the call) and whether the vehicle is there or
not is a matter for the GM to decide.  You only need to hit within 10
meters to have some effect though (at a pen of 1 minimum), and even a low
penetration shot at anyone with any exposure would be deadly.

A ship would be much more useful in the direct fire role; The rules for
when you can use direct vs. indirect are not too clear, but I would say
that you need to be fairly close and, obviously, in line of sight to act in
a direct fire mode; say within 50km (Very Distant).  At that point the
gunner's skill and the Fire Controls of the TL of the weapon are used; at
TL13 (for example) at very distant this is still difficult (11+), but it
drops to routine (7+) at v.long (250-500m) and simple (3+) at medium (5m to
50m), plus you will usually have a gunner with gunnery skill, as opposed to
the relatively rare forward observer skill.

Also remember that laser need LOS all the time, whether in orbit or not.

There is no reference, by the way, to any attenuation of the possible
damage due to passing trough atmosphere in these rules (Megatraveller), and
I have no applicable errata.


>	- Robert Ringrose
>	  ringrose@ascent.com
>
>The kind of question one has to ask before putting various weapons at
>the PCs disposal... and to figure out how firm various governmental
>agencies will be.
>
>(PC on planet) "Charlie, you have our position?"
>(PC on ship) "Yup.  Been tracking your comm signal for a while."
>(PC on planet) "Due north, there's a truck driving away... it has the
>bad guys.  Hit it."
>(PC on ship) "Yes, Captain."
>(GM at table) Sounds of frantic flipping through books and punching at
>calculators as the ship's laser fires.

Ah, yes, the old improvisational drill.  First thing to do is decide
whether the ship is in a geosynchronous orbit.  If the players didn't
specify (I consider making plans based on the ship being overhead
sufficient), then a "standard" orbit is more likely, which will put the
ship overhead for one-third of a planetary orbit, which, according to MT,
is equal to the size UPP of the planet (i.e. one orbit of a size 8 planet
takes 8 hours).

Also remember that if they "hit" that truck, there will be no evidence to
collect from the bodies to prove that they were, in fact, Zhodani spies and
what  they did was not, in fact, murder, but heroic action to save The
Imperium.

Most governments frown on firing starship class weapons at their planets.
would say the Imperium frowns on it too, but would accept good reasons as
above - once the investigation was over.

Good Luck!

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:17 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Off topic: Bad Equipment

Actually,  I prefer the "Land Master."  You know, that great vehicle from
"Damnation Alley"  Now it had it all!!  Armor, weapons, all the comforts of
home...just a suggestion.  ;-)

T

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:18:49 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

This may have been covered in another send that I missed but here goes anyway.
I have an OLD <<dating back to Stonehenge I tell ya!!>>issue of "White Dwarf"
magazine (before they went exclusively "warhammer") that had a system using
the Social Standing attribute.  Depending on ones Social Standing you got
various rolls off of a chart to recieve "royal prevledges."  One of the many
powers you could recieve were "Court Influence" "Right to Bear Arms" and
"Right of Body Guard" all of which overrode a planets local law level.  If I
can dig it out of my boxes in the garage (Jesse can tell ya what a job THAT
will be) I'll pass it along for everyones concideration.

T

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:31:37 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

Fun!!??  You called it fun!!??

Jesse, you forgot the Solomani...favoring a saucer shape of all things.

T

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:29:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Finding Time & PDF

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:

>Okay, I'll bite. Where can one find 102 Vehicles?

http://www.bits.org.uk/

Archives page

>(Would DGP-style pen-and-ink drawings do?)

If BITS publish it on paper, yes.
If BITS publish for Rob electronically, yes.
So  'yes'.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:35:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>It's utterly awful.
>
>In fact, all of Traveller is a cess-pit of despair and pathos.  We are
>trapped, but there is still hope for you!  Run, before you become as we
are!!!
>
>Save yourself, Clif!
>--

Nice try, Doug.  Whaddya think?  I'm a total idiot?  You're just saying that
to get me to leave the list.  ;^)

- --Clif
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:39:00 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
You are truly fortunate if you have never had to wait for a corridor;
managing human traffic is a significant problem in many buildings like
schools, theaters, airports, and sport arenas. People often have to wait
for an opening in a corridor when pedestrian flows intersect or at blind
intersections. This can happen even in low-occupancy buildings which are
poorly designed. For example (pretends to think hard), that spot outside
the bridge of the Sulieman-class scout/courier where 3 doorways open into
the same hex. One from the floor. That must be real interesting in an
emergency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Note that the Sulieman will have at most eight people on it total, and will
more usually have four. The chances of more than one or two people at
a time needing to move through that same space is slim. Replace that
accessway with an elevator, and every time someone wants to go one
way everyone else has to wait...and with a low-crew ship like this one,
almost every elevator trip will be by one person.

Not that corridors can't give you congestion...but on a small ship, you
quickly get to a point where no elevator will be faster than a comparable
corridor (when you add in waits for elevator calls, cycling of doors,
fiddling with buttons, other people holding the elevator on other floors, etc).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:43:19 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

I may also have a copy in a more reasonable place than Todd.  I'll take a
look this evening.
Jesse




>This may have been covered in another send that I missed but here goes
anyway.
>I have an OLD <<dating back to Stonehenge I tell ya!!>>issue of "White
Dwarf"
>magazine (before they went exclusively "warhammer") that had a system using
>the Social Standing attribute.  Depending on ones Social Standing you got
>various rolls off of a chart to recieve "royal prevledges."  One of the
many
>powers you could recieve were "Court Influence" "Right to Bear Arms" and
>"Right of Body Guard" all of which overrode a planets local law level.  If
I
>can dig it out of my boxes in the garage (Jesse can tell ya what a job THAT
>will be) I'll pass it along for everyones concideration.
>
>T
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:47:02 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

Oh, BTW, you ARE going to use a Hostile Environment Vacc Suit while you go
searching in your garage, right?  ;)
Jesse




>This may have been covered in another send that I missed but here goes
anyway.
>I have an OLD <<dating back to Stonehenge I tell ya!!>>issue of "White
Dwarf"
>magazine (before they went exclusively "warhammer") that had a system using
>the Social Standing attribute.  Depending on ones Social Standing you got
>various rolls off of a chart to recieve "royal prevledges."  One of the
many
>powers you could recieve were "Court Influence" "Right to Bear Arms" and
>"Right of Body Guard" all of which overrode a planets local law level.  If
I
>can dig it out of my boxes in the garage (Jesse can tell ya what a job THAT
>will be) I'll pass it along for everyones concideration.
>
>T
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:49:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

>This may have been covered in another send that I missed but here goes
anyway.
>I have an OLD <<dating back to Stonehenge I tell ya!!>>issue of "White
Dwarf"
>magazine (before they went exclusively "warhammer") that had a system using
>the Social Standing attribute.

I wonder if it is on the HIWG CD.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:51:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>I want
>>to know what sucks about it!
>
>It's utterly awful.
>
>In fact, all of Traveller is a cess-pit of despair and pathos.  We are
>trapped, but there is still hope for you!  Run, before you become as we
are!!!
>
>Save yourself, Clif!
>--
>
>Doug Berry


C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:41:01 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
>for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
>to know what sucks about it!


There is no objective answer to this. I for example do not think anything
sucks about GURPS Traveller. Some think it sucks just because it isn't
"original" Traveller.


What DOES suck is impolite, offensive responses to perfectly reasonable
statements.


Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:54:23 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

You must have gotten that from the shooting people at will (and kinda "at
your leisure") that comes with sniping, Doug.

You're a Leonardo DaVinci of the Traveller community.

- --Clif

>To be honest, I work in a very piecemeal fashion.  In one session in front
>of the computer I might design a couple of ships, fiddle with a planet
>write-up, and play a lot of Nethack before I get to what I was supposed to
>be doing.  When I try to force myself, I'm never satisfied with the result.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:58:13 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

Hey, your character didn't DIE did he?  Or did he....Crap, of all the things
I've lost I miss my mind the most.  Oh well :)  Solomani with saucer shapes
must be a cultural left-over from Area 51.

Jesse




>Fun!!??  You called it fun!!??
>
>Jesse, you forgot the Solomani...favoring a saucer shape of all things.
>
>T
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:37 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

>I could enable text selection. Would that allow people to copy stats out?
>
>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...


For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the information
can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
paper in Word).

Looking at an online book simply means I'm going to have to retype it at
60wpm myself.  It doesn't prevent me from copying it.  And allowing people
to copy text isn't the problem.  People who do not know how to or who won't
use methods of documentation are the problem.

There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.

Don't punish the sincere because of the offenses of those without morals.
OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you ARE
doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:09:37 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Navagation Beacons

Does anyone know where I can find info/stats on Navigation Beacons? I 
know they are supposed to be included in GT Free Trader...which comes 
out in a few weeks...Now if I can just wait :)

Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:34:39 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign

Do your bills include the giant Pizza and Beer expenses you incure over there?
Bet you could gain an extra $800/month if ya cut that out.  (I just couldn't
resist bro)

T

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:14:38 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Clif posted:
>
> Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh! I ask
> for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
> to know what sucks about it!
>
>- --Clif

First, being a MegaTraveller diehard who's seriously
considering converting to G:T, one of the things
I don't like is the ridiculous amount of "advantages"
which duplicate each other or which duplicate the
effect of high characteristics. This useless 
complication of the rules really irritates me and 
I've crossed out most of the advantages in my books,
leaving only the unique ones.

IMO, if a player wants the benefits associated
with a high stat, buy the high stat.

Second, there are *so many*, actually learning to
play the game can be a real pain. Basically, the
most difficult thing about GURPS is figuring out what
rules you _don't_ want to use. Using all the combat
rules really slows down the game.

Third, I find the use of the U.S. standard of
measurement a real pain after nearly two decades(!)
of using the metric system for Traveller and I
think the spread of technology within a single Tech
Level in GURPS is far too great. A Sopwith Camel is
lumped together with a Korean-war era F-86 jet
interceptor.

Fourth, because of the way SJG uses different
publications to focus on different aspects of a
campaign (medieval combat vs. space combat), IMO it's
necessary to buy multiple books in order to have
a well-rounded Traveller campaign. I'm finding it
necessary to either copy and combine sections
from different books or rip sections out of various
books in order to have a  comprehensive set of combat
rules which cover medieval man-to-man up to 50th 
century starship combat.

Now you (and everyone) knows what I don't like about
GURPS. And I'll still very likely convert to G:T
despite it all. I'm finding that, for me, GURPS'
advantages far outweigh its disadvantages (no pun
intended). YMMV.

Hope this helps.

If you or anyone else want to know what I'm doing
to deal with the above issues, I'll be happy to
respond.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #181
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 182



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Neutrino sensors
Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign
Re: tanks
re: GURPs Traveller
Re: [Debate] Gallatin 1
[Debate] Gallatin 2 resp Thucydides 1
[Debate] Dilgaadin 1 resp Gallatin 1
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Modular Ships (was re: Starship Aesthetics)
GURPS Traveller and Turrets
Re: GURPs Traveller
GT - New Sickbay Modules
GT : New Passenger Modules
GT : Utility Modules
GT : Vectored Thrust Modules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:17:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>>Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
>>for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
>>to know what sucks about it!
>
>
>There is no objective answer to this.

What are you talking about?  Any person who has played a number of
role-playing games can offer his opinion and the support for his opinion,
based on GURPS internal evidence and comparisons with outside systems.
That's all I'm looking for...  "I think the blah-blah-blah system of GURPS
sucks, because if you look on page ___ of ____ and compare it with page ____
of (another game) you will see that the other game is much smoother running
(or whatever)."  That's all.

> I for example do not think anything
>sucks about GURPS Traveller. Some think it sucks just because it isn't
>"original" Traveller.

Obviously, neither one of those were the types of responses I was asking
for.  "What sucks about GURPS Traveller" implies that something doesn't, not
to mention the fact that I ALREADY said that I was impressed by the
character generation methods.
>
>
>What DOES suck is impolite, offensive responses to perfectly reasonable
>statements.
>
It may have been a perfectly reasonable statement (that's debatable), but it
wasn't a logical answer to my question.

- --Clif

P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:18:42 -0600
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> No more so than a violent lightning strike. There will be a
> heckuva BANG as the laser superheats the air it's going through,
> but it doesn't 'destroy' the air, merely heats it to a plasma
> state.
>
> In fact it would probably look remarkably like a very straight
> lightning bolt.


And, it would be just as detectable by the authorities.

"Denning Control to Deep Meson Four, illegal weapons fire
 detected from bandit Kilo X-Ray Five Niner.  Vaporize at
 will."

"Roger Denning, Kilo X-Ray Five Niner.  Commencing primary
 ignition on my mark..."

- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:27:25 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Neutrino sensors

>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Nuetrino sensors
>
>OK, I give.  What exactly should the nuetrino sensors located on the front
>and top of the Donosev's hull look like?  I've got copies of the Donosev
>illos from the WBH, but they're only shown there as rounded squares with
>circles in the middle.  Anyone have any idea what they really ought to look
>like?

  Treat them as black boxes; there's no danger of any casing (or shielding?)
significantly blocking the signal that they're trying to receive. Most likely
a rough cube, but perhaps elongated boxes if mainly directional use desired.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:29:30 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Sponsor Jesse Campaign

$800/month or more, actually :)
J




>Do your bills include the giant Pizza and Beer expenses you incure over there?
>Bet you could gain an extra $800/month if ya cut that out.  (I just couldn't
>resist bro)
>
>T
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:16:16 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks

In a message dated 2/23/99 2:19:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< survival due to their small population base. These tanks have frontally
 >mounted engines as extra armor. Of course any frontal arc penetrations (and
 
   <ahem>  Citizen, Striker is quite clear in stating that armoured vehicles
 have _rear_ mounted engines. Is remedial re-education really what you want?
 
 ...
 >Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
 >Imperial grav tanks?
 
   Under MT grav tanks are armoured equally all round (_and_ roughly egg-shaped)
 to give them a decent chance when the original CT Imperial Marine grav-APC 
 simply lands on them (_six-hundred_ metric tons of fun!)  :|
  >>


ROTFLMAO!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:32:31 -0500
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: GURPs Traveller

Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Clif, the kind of childish outbursts you've been giving on this thread would
lead me to tell you zilch about G:T, even if I'd bought it yet. People don't
dislike you because you're Clif, they get cranked at you because you
go off like this.

And, once again, we see Clif's conspiracy paranoia cropping up.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:08:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Gallatin 1

The following comment was posted on the editorial pages of
The Sylean Times the same day that it published
"Toward and Imperium for the People" by Gallatin.

Thought For The Day:
"The tighter one grips a fist full of sand, the faster it flows out and is
lost for good."

Although several commentators have speculated that this reflects the
views of the editorial board, when asked directly about the possible
relation of the Thought For The Day any the opinion of of Gallatin,
Harimo Jhai, Editor-In-Chief of the Sylean Times, said,

"Any speculation about the intent behind the selection of the
Thought Of The Day is just that, speculation.  The Thought is
a long-standing tradition of the Sylean Times.  Any politcal intent
behind it is in the eyes of the beholder."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:35:19 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Debate] Gallatin 2 resp Thucydides 1

"Gallatin"

Thucydides would set up the straw man of an oppressive Imperium to argue 
against a more responsive and more activist one.

The Imperium must not 'run the very lives' of its people any more than 
it does now.  The necessity is that the Imperium _respond_ to the needs 
and desires of those same people.  Planetary governments under a 
restructured Imperium would continue to run planetary affairs, save that 
they could not, without drawing the ire of the Imperium, prevent the 
inhabitants from making known their desires, needs, and displeasures, 
and would be required to respond to them.  Different planets will 
express these differently, and attempting to force them all into the 
same mold is neither contemplated nor desirable.  It is the latter error 
that was made by the Ziru Sirka, and Thucydides is correct in noting 
Cleon I's wisdom in not following that model.  But recall that Cleon I 
_created_ his Imperium - _our_ Imperium - from the shattered remnants of 
another empire, in a time where the trade whose interests his 
construction protected _needed_ that protection merely to survive - and 
that protection took a far larger proportion of the resources of the new 
Imperium than is currently spent on the same functions.

The freedoms that Thucydides champions must and would be maintained; it 
is the 'freedoms' that are conspicuous by their absence that the 
activist Imperium would address: the 'freedom' to be a slave in all but 
name of an oppressive planetary government; the 'freedom' to have no 
opportunity for planetary development because it is not in the interests 
of a megacorporation or a planetary elite that neither listens to nor 
cares for the masses, the 'freedom' from the worry of deciding where 
one's own best interests lie, and articulating them, because the 
planetary government has decided that it is more qualified to make this 
decision.  Far from an activist Imperium forcing its people to be 
'slaves under the bootheels of a myriad despots, huddled on their own 
worlds, adrift one from the other, their children staring hopelessly at 
the unreachable stars, trapped in an ever-lengthening permanent Night', 
such an Imperium would be the opposite, liberating its people to realize 
their potential, to have a champion to fight for them when they would be 
oppressed, to bring the light of an everlasting Day to those worlds 
whose people hunger for that light.  It is not that the Imperium would 
say, "You may not be Vilani, or Promethean, or Lancian, but must instead 
be Imperial, no more and no less."  It is that the Imperium would 
establish conditions that would allow the people to take pride in being 
able to say, "Yes, I am Geonee, or JaeTallonac, or Githiaski, but I am 
an Imperial citizen."  Many planetary nations have had this kind of 
pride in unity; should the Imperium forsake it out of the paranoia of 
some few that see only the evils of the power to cause change combined 
with the will?

To be cautious in the face of radical change is prudent.  To fear it 
outright is counterproductive; it leads to the mindset that is best 
exemplified by the rigidity and attempted stasis of the Ziru Sirka.  As 
Thucydides points out, the Ziru Sirka lasted for quite a long time 
before its rotten structure was toppled by a single push - a push from a 
dynamic, active culture that was not afraid to intervene where 
necessary, while standing aside where appropriate - a governmental 
pattern that had served that culture for centuries, and served it well.  
But Thucydides tries to turn history on its head, and advocates the 
status quo as the route to success - when attempting to maintain the 
status quo was probably the Ziru Sirka's greatest flaw - while 
suggesting that dynamicism and activism - a remarkably successful 
formula for the 'upstarts' from Terra - are a recipe for tyranny and 
destruction.

To accept Thucydides' reasoning is to doom the Imperium to senescence 
and eventual disintegration.  Only a renewed, dynamic, and activist 
Imperium can stand the challenges that face it in the present and 
future.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:36:29 PST
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Debate] Dilgaadin 1 resp Gallatin 1

"Dilgaadin"

Gallatin speaks of the need for an Imperium that actively engages the 
governments of the Member Worlds.  The thesis proposed is that 'major 
changes in the attitudes of much of the Imperial nobility' will be 
required, and the 'restructuring - by force if necessary' of 
'unrepresentative or oppressive' governments.

The proposed goal of strength through unity is a laudable one.  The 
proposed direction is both dangerous and insufficient to that goal.

It is insufficient in that the proposal would largely leave the Imperial 
Power in the hands of a hereditary nobility, whose interests will 
perforce lie largely with the commercial interests whose dominance in 
Imperial policy Gallatin currently decries.  A 'change in attitude', 
even under threat of loss of patent, cannot be expected to be sufficient 
or long lasting; long habit almost invariably reasserts itself.

It is also insufficient in that no specific channel for the Member 
Worlds or the people of the Imperium to express their 'needs and 
desires' has been suggested.  With no clear channel for these needs and 
desires to be expressed, how can the newly activist Imperium respond to 
them?

It is dangerous in that it encourages not merely the engagement of, but 
the 'restructuring' of the governments of Member Worlds that are 
'unrepresentative or oppressive'.  Who is to decide whether a government 
falls into that classification?  What is the appropriate response?  
What, exactly, does Gallatin mean by 'restructuring', and why should 
force be necessary?  Gallatin proposes a recipe by which an activist 
Imperium could very easily become an oppressive one - in direct 
contravention to one of the purposes to which the enhanced Imperial 
Power would putatively be put.

There is a danger in any attempt to restructure the Imperium; that 
danger is that the stresses of that process, added to the stresses that 
Gallatin seeks to reduce, will cause an adverse reaction.  This is, 
nevertheless, a risk that must be taken.  The question is whether the 
restructuring can be managed in a manner that minimizes those stresses.

A gradual restructuring, with old and new structures coexisting, may 
very well be the answer.  The Imperium is divided into Domains, Sectors, 
and Subsectors on a formal basis, and informally, several 'cultural 
regions' are acknowledged, as are 'clusters' and 'mains' formed by the 
natural trading patterns caused by limitations of stellography and Jump 
capability.  Each of these may need restructuring, but cannot 
restructure without the lower levels being ready for it.  Thus, 
restructuring must proceed from the bottom up.  This has the added 
benefit of preserving the stability of the Imperium, while opening the 
way for new ideas, and feedback from the people who must benefit from 
the change.

Gallatin does not say so, but it is almost inevitable that a more 
responsive Imperium must be a more _democratic_ Imperium as well.  It is 
for this reason also that the change must come from the bottom up, 
rather than from the top down, as Gallatin suggests.  Democratic 
councils, able to listen to the people and to direct resources in 
accordance with their needs, must be formed to advise and eventually 
supplant the traditional nobility as the primary repository of power.  
Executives responsible to the Imperium must be appointed as a check on 
the councils, but must not be as powerful as the present nobility.  But, 
most importantly, the people of the Imperium must be educated to 
understand not just their own needs and desires, but those of the 
Imperium as a whole.  Gallatin is correct that time is short; the 
program of education, at least, must be started as soon as practical, 
with the first structural changes to follow soon thereafter.

To do less would be to doom the Imperium to destruction as a hollow 
shell.  To go beyond this would be to risk shattering the Imperium due 
to the internal stresses that make these extensive changes necessary.  A 
judicious combination of caution and boldness is indicated, and it is 
indicated now.  It is not our present that is in the balance, but our 
future.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:40:08 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

*Sigh of relief*  Thank you!

I'd like to know what you are doing to deal with the issues you mentioned.

- --Clif

>Now you (and everyone) knows what I don't like about
>GURPS. And I'll still very likely convert to G:T
>despite it all. I'm finding that, for me, GURPS'
>advantages far outweigh its disadvantages (no pun
>intended). YMMV.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>If you or anyone else want to know what I'm doing
>to deal with the above issues, I'll be happy to
>respond.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:24:22 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modular Ships (was re: Starship Aesthetics)

In a message dated 2/23/99 6:48:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the cargo
 >pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes sense to
 >me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock the
 >containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.
 
 I've built one of these:
 
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/camel.html
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Me too...  http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/starship/rifthighliner.htm
  >>

does my modular battlerider tender count?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:36:16 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: GURPS Traveller and Turrets

- ->>
>GURPS Traveller turrets.
>
>If I have a turret and load three weapons on it, how many spaces
>does it take up?  One or four?


It takes up one space. This is the "rotation space" inside the turret for
the equipment that moves it. The turret itself is outside the hull and can
hold up to three spaces of weapons.

>If it is one, then can I assume that the space allocated for the turret
>contains the "slice" of reactor power and all the other things
>necessary for the weapons (missiles, sand buckets, etc), no matter
>which of the weapons I put on it?

The size of the weapon should ideally contain the power slice, and should
add up to 1 space total; you can put three spaces of weapons into a turret
(as the rules state)/


>What about Hull Mount?  It gets you nothing if the answer is one,
>except for less space (2 dTons less).  And fewer firing arcs (which
>isn't really a problem with the new combat system in GT).


Hull-mountes weapons take up their number of spaces in the hull, and every
three spaces mounted eats up one "hardpoint" for turrets. Myself, I see no
advantage to them except on small craft.


>What is the use of Hull Mounting a Bay Weapon?  You get nothing
>there either except for loss of firing arcs (see above statement on
>firing arcs).


I myself would not do this.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:59:16 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPs Traveller

>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?


>And, once again, we see Clif's conspiracy paranoia cropping up.
>

Just answer the question.  Must suck to stumble around a smoke-filled cave.

- --Clif
>Walt Smith
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:19:08 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT - New Sickbay Modules

All modules have fusion (fission at TL8) power built in.

TL  Spaces  Weight  Cost    Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------
8   1       0.4728  0.2211  2 Operating tables, 3 Emergency Support
                            Units, 1 Terminal
9   1       0.86035 0.1626  1 Operating table, 2 Automeds, 1 Diagnosis
                            table, 1 Terminal
10  1       0.75507 0.1623  1 Operating table, 2 Automeds, 1 Diagnosis
                            table, 1 Terminal
11+ 1       0.85508 0.2123  1 Operating table, 3 Automeds, 1 Diagnosis
                            table, 1 Terminal


WORKSHEETS:

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating Room          2   8   500     400     100000  1       2
table(s)
Emergency Support Unit  4   8   400     20      120000  0.4
Terminal                1   8   40      2       1000    0
Fission Power for above 1   8   5.6     0.336   140     -1.4    0.224 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Totals          945.6   422.336 221140  0
0.4728 tons 1 spaces    0.2211 MCr


Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating Room          1   9   250     200     50000   0.5     1
table(s)
Automed                 2   9   1200    200     100000  0.2
Diagnosis Table         1   9   250     80      12000   0
Terminal                1   9   20      1       500     0
Fusion Power for above  1   9   0.7     0.042   140     -0.7    0.028 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Totals          1720.7  481.042 162640  0
0.86035 tons    1 spaces    0.1626 MCr


Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating Room          1   10  250     200     50000   0.5     1
table(s)
Automed                 2   10  1000    150     100000  0.2
Diagnosis Table         1   10  250     80      12000   0
Terminal                1   10  10      0.5     250     0
Fusion Power for above  1   10  0.14    0.0084  35      -0.7    0.0056
cf access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Totals          1510.14 430.5084 162285  0
0.75507 tons    1 spaces    0.1623 MCr


Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating Room          1   11+ 250     200     50000   0.5     1
table(s)
Automed                 3   11+ 1200    150     150000  0.3
Diagnosis Table         1   11+ 250     80      12000   0
Terminal                1   11+ 10      0.5     250     0
Fusion Power for above  1   11+ 0.16    0.0096  20      -0.8    0.0064
cf access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Totals          1710.16 430.5096 212270  0
0.85508 tons    1 spaces    0.2123 MCr


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:20:12 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : New Passenger Modules

All modules have fusion (fission at TL8) power built in.

TL  Spaces  Weight  Cost        Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
8   1       1.056   0.0072      11 Roomy Seats, 11 man-days limited LS
9   1       0.77275 0.0077      11 Roomy Seats, 11 man-days limited LS
10  1       0.5406  0.0075      12 Roomy Seats, 12 man-days limited LS
11  1       0.5406  0.0074      12 Roomy Seats, 12 man-days limited LS
12+ 1       0.5406  0.0074      12 Roomy Seats, 12 man-days limited LS


WORKSHEETS:

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Roomy Seat              11  -   440     440     1100    0
Limited Life Support    11  8   1650    33      5500    5.5     11
man-days limited LS
Fission Power for above 1   8   22      1.32    550     -5.5    0.88 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          2112    474.32  7150    0
1.056 tons  1 spaces    0.0072 MCr

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Roomy Seat              11  -   440     440     1100    0
Limited Life Support    11  9   1100    22      5500    5.5     11
man-days limited LS
Fusion Power for above  1   9   5.5     0.33    1100    -5.5    0.22 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          1545.5  462.33  7700    0
0.77275 tons    1 spaces    0.0077 MCr

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Roomy Seat              12  -   480     480     1200    0
Limited Life Support    12  10  600     12      6000    6       12
man-days limited LS
Fusion Power for above  1   10  1.2     0.072   300     -6      0.048 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          1081.2  492.072 7500    0
0.5406 tons 1 spaces    0.0075 MCr

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Roomy Seat              12  -   480     480     1200    0
Limited Life Support    12  11  600     12      6000    6       12
man-days limited LS
Fusion Power for above  1   11  1.2     0.072   150     -6      0.048 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          1081.2  492.072 7350    0
0.5406 tons 1 spaces    0.0074 MCr

Component               #   TL  Weight  Volume  Cost    Power   Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Roomy Seat              12  -   480     480     1200    0
Limited Life Support    12  12  600     12      6000    6       12
man-days limited LS
Fusion Power for above  1   12  1.2     0.072   150     -6      0.048 cf
access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                          1081.2  492.072 7350    0
0.5406 tons 1 spaces    0.0074 MCr

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:21:15 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Utility Modules

All modules have fusion power (fission at TL8) built in. Round the
space requirements down to 500 spaces to match GT, if you wish.

TL  # spaces    Weight   Cost   Notes
- -------------------------------------
8   8           101.25   5.005  5 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
9   2           15.5     2.202  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
10  1           11.5     0.302  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
11  1           11.5     0.252  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
12  1           11.5     0.252  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
13  1           11.5     0.252  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
14  1           11.5     0.252  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed
15  1           11.5     0.252  2 person airlock, 1 per 540 spaces
needed

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:22:03 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : Vectored Thrust Modules

All modules have fusion power (fission at TL8) built in.

TL  Spaces  Weight      Cost        Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------
8   1       4.16625     0.1151      1.722 tons thrust
9   1       4.1664      1.5676      5.918 tons thrust
10  1       4.1666575   2.9414      55.704 tons thrust
11  1       4.16666     31.2504     118.371 tons thrust
12  1       4.16666     31.2504     118.371 tons thrust
13+ 1       4.16666275  4347.8234   411.726 tons thrust


WORKSHEETS:

Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost    Power  
Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Thruster       3030    8   1515    90.9    60600   1515    60.6
cf access space
Vectored Thrust         1       -   757.5   45.45   30300   0      
Vectored, 30.3 cf access space
Fission Power for above 1       8   6060    363.6   24240   0      
242.4 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8332.5  499.95  115140  1515
4.16625 tons    1 spaces    0.1151 MCr
3030 pounds/1.722 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost    Power  
Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Thruster          10416   9   2083.2  124.992 1041600 5208   
83.328 cf access space
Vectored Thrust         1       -   1041.6  62.496  520800  0      
Vectored, 41.664 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       9   5208    312.48  5208    -5208  
208.32 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8332.8  499.968 1567608 0
4.1664 tons 1 spaces    1.5676 MCr
10416 pounds/5.918 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight   Volume     Cost    Power   
Notes
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Thruster       98039   10  4901.95  294.117    1960780 4901.95 
196.078 cf access space
Vectored Thrust         1       -   2450.975 147.0585   980390  0       
Vectored, 98.039 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       10  980.39   58.8234    196.078 -4901.95
39.2156 cf access space
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8333.315 499.9989   2941366.078 0
4.1666575 tons  1 spaces    2.9414 MCr
98039 pounds/55.704 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume    Cost     
Power       Notes
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Thruster          208333  11  4166.66 249.9996  20833300 
10416.65    166.6664 cf access space
Vectored Thrust         1       -   2083.33 124.9998  10416650 
0           Vectored, 83.3332 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       11  2083.33 124.9998  416.666  
- -10416.65   83.3332 cf access space
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8333.32 499.9992  31250366.67 0
4.16666 tons    1 spaces    31.2504 MCr
208333 pounds/118.371 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight   Volume    Cost       
Power     Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mega Thruster           724637  13  724.637  43.47822  2898548000 36231.85  28.98548 cf access space
Vectored Thrust         1       -   362.3185 21.73911  1449274000 0         Vectored, 14.49274 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       13  7246.37  434.7822  1449.274   - -36231.85 289.8548 cf access space
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8333.3255 499.99953 4347823449  0
4.16666275 tons 1 spaces    4347.8234 MCr
724637 pounds/411.726 tons thrust

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #182
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 183



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GT : UNVECTORED thrust modules
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
RE: Gurps Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Those who support delusions 
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives
Re: GURPs Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller and Turrets
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:22:47 +1100
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: GT : UNVECTORED thrust modules

All modules have fusion power (fission at TL8) built in.

TL  Spaces  Weight      Cost        Notes
- ----------------------------------------------------------
8   1       4.16625     0.0933      1.894 tons thrust
9   1       4.1664      1.1964      6.764 tons thrust
10  1       4.16664     2.778       78.914 tons thrust
11  1       4.166655    27.7783     157.828 tons thrust
12  1       4.166655    27.7783     157.828 tons thrust
13+ 1       4.1666625   3030.3015   430.44 tons thrust


WORKSHEETS:

Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost    Power  
Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Thruster       3333    8   1666.5  99.99   66660   1666.5 
66.66 cf access space
Fission Power for above 1       8   6666    399.96  26664   -1666.5
266.64 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Totals          8332.5  499.95  93324   0
4.16625 tons    1 spaces    0.0933 MCr
3333 pounds/1.894 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost    Power  
Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Thruster          11904   9   2380.8  142.848 1190400 5952   
95.232 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       9   5952    357.12  5952    -5952  
238.08 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Totals          8332.8  499.968 1196352 0
4.1664 tons 1 spaces    1.1964 MCr
11904 pounds/6.764 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost    Power  
Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Thruster       138888  10  6944.4  416.664 2777760 6944.4 
277.776 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       10  1388.88 83.3328 277.776 -6944.4
55.5552 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Totals          8333.28 499.9968 2778037.776 0
4.16664 tons    1 spaces    2.778 MCr
138888 pounds/78.914 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume      Cost       
Power     Notes
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Super Thruster          277777  11  5555.54 333.3324    27777700   
13888.85   222.2216 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       11  2777.77 166.6662    555.554    
- -13888.85  111.1108 cf access space
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8333.31 499.9986    27778255.55 0
4.166655 tons   1 spaces    27.7783 MCr
277777 pounds/157.828 tons thrust


Component               #       GTL Weight  Volume  Cost       
Power       Notes
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mega Thruster           757575  13  757.575 45.4545 3030300000 
37878.75    30.303 cf access space
Fusion Power for above  1       13  7575.75 454.545 1515.15    
- -37878.75   303.03 cf access space
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals                              8333.325 499.9995 3030301515  0
4.1666625 tons  1 spaces    3030.3015 MCr
757575 pounds/430.44 tons thrust


- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:08:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:35:51 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 11:05 AM 23/02/99 -0500, you wrote:
>How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
>orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
>looking for an order of magnitude here....
>	. a vehicle?
>	. a house?
>	. a large building?
>	. a block?
>	. a manufacturing complex?
>	. a town?
>	. a city?

        Well, I am a CT GM and here is what I told my players.  In "Chamax
Plague" they make the note that it takes 1000pts of personal laser weapons
fire onto a tight point to tear a 1m hole in a starship hull.  100pts will
pop an interior pressure-tight wall.
        So, CT pulse lasers do 4d x100 (~1500pts), CT beam lasers do 3d x100
(~1000pts) and deliver a DM of +2 to Fwd Obsvr rolls, CT missiles do  10d
x100 (~3500 pts).
        Now, these statements do not allow for Striker, since I have never
actually used those rules.  However, the idea *is* based on canon.  By
comparison, in Mercenary, a Z-Gun will do a 21d (~73pts) burst and kill a
tank or flatten a building handily.  I have had players in the strike zone
for a sustained orbital bombardment by a MercCruiser armed with 10
triple-pulse laser turret.  In an hour of constant firing (4 turns x 30 wpns
x ~1500pts = 180,000pts),  it simply flattened a pop: 300k city.

        I understand that Striker indicates that a beam laser is about the
hitting power of a 100mm CPR gun, and that may seem more sane.  However, I
am not sure if that is reasonable for a ship-killing weapon power, either.
Way too low, I think.

>Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
>Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit other
>ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?
>

        Well, a light second detection in vaccum to 10000km in atmosphere is
pretty easy to accept.  In point of fact, in at least one instance, I have
had my players turn on the FCS *while on the ground* and used it to simply
incinerate an on-rushing TL3 horde.  Can you say "Rad-Haz"?  =)

        MTU, YMMV, YAAA, BYE.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:35:52 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 10:41 AM 23/02/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>> > Then have the PCs unable to find the
>> bad
>> >guy's bodies ;)
>> >
>> 
>> Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
>> Jesse
>
>Nope, this is great for the PC's...no corpus to habeas! "Killed _who_
>officer? I don't see any bodies..."
>
        "...Well, no, officer, I don't know where that 12m-wide crater in
the middle of the high-way came from..."
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:35:51 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 09:34 AM 23/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Nah.  Just determine if the ship is overhead, give the PC on the ship a
>sensor
>>task to locate the truck, a pretty easy gunnery task to shoot the truck,
>and
>>assume the truck disappears if hit.  Then have the PCs unable to find the
>bad
>>guy's bodies ;)
>>
>
>
>Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
>Jesse
>

        But not for loooong!
        --Michel
        
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:38:30 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: RE: Gurps Traveller

	I agree with most of the problems people have given about Gurps
Traveller.  You do have to buy too many source books in order to truly
exploit the full system, and I'm concerned about the maps that have been
published so far for GT.  I just got Behind the Claw and a quick comparison
shows 2 star systems that are in Atlas of the Imperium and are not on the
map in BtC.  	
	The one reason I've been considering running a Traveller campaign
using the Gurps system for several years now is the combat system.  If you
buy a vinyl hex map and get some 25mm figures and use the advanced Gurps
combat system, you'll never want to go back to anything else.  The tactical
elements of the system all fit together nicely, and gives a feel of realism
that few other systems have.  This, imho, is the one thing that plagued all
the other incarnations of Traveller.  I haven't used the starship combat
system from Gurps yet, so I can't comment on it.  Anyone else care to?

		Alan Hatcher

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:36:02 -0500
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5F42.3846D900
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS =
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you =
might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is =
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers, =
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid =
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it =
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and force =
me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens' health =
benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Sword Worlder's Traveller Pages
http://come.to/traveller







- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5F42.3846D900
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR>---Clif &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:brclif@digital.net">brclif@digital.net</A>&gt; =
wrote:<BR>&gt;=20
P.S.:&nbsp; NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS=20
Traveller?&nbsp; Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid =
you=20
might offend if you say anything negative about it?&nbsp; Is that=20
it?&lt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Okay, okay!&nbsp; You've broken me =
down, you've=20
forced it out of me.&nbsp; GT is printed on recycled toilet paper, in =
sheeps=20
blood, by migrant workers, in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from =
unpaid=20
writers, utterly devoid of any value, and possibly hazardous to your=20
health.&nbsp; I only buy it because the Illuminati take the money from =
my=20
checking account and force me to stay quiet by threatening to =
discontinue my=20
childrens' health benefits.&nbsp; Besides, I'm an addict and can help=20
myself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>But other than that, it's pretty =
decent.&nbsp;=20
You will like it (or else).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<BR>Sword Worlder's=20
Traveller Pages<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://come.to/traveller">http://come.to/traveller</A></FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE5F42.3846D900--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:12:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:06:07 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions 

At 04:32 pm 2/21/99, you wrote:
>At 10:54 PM 2/21/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
>>
>>A carrot is under EU law.
>
>According to the Reagan Administration, catsup (or ketchup) was
considered
>a vegetable in school lunches.

	According to the Clinton administration, the more ethnically-diverse
(and hence politically correct) SALSA is a vegetable in school
lunches ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:20:00 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

At 05:41 pm 2/22/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Richard Hough wrote:
>
>>Tall structures can be designed to be stable in themselves and not
need any
>>bracing or cable stays to hold them up. Skyscrapers are designed
this way,
>>and starships can be too. This is the point many find hard to
accept, and
>>the topic is too involved to go into here. If you want a more
detailed
>>explanation email me privately.
>
>Skyscrapers don't have foundations?

	The purpose of foundations is to provide a level, solid ... er ...
"foundation" ... on which to construct the building. It provides a
way to disperse the vertical weight forces of the building either
down into solid bedrock, or over a wide enough area of softer
material to counteract the weight. Not necessarily resist lateral
force. In fact, I recall seeing articles which showed buildings
resting on *rollers* on top of the foundation.

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:35:01 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

At 11:32 am 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net> writes:
>>Rob Prior has a very valid point for not allowing people to copy
>>& paste from the files he has provided for FREE (Thanks).
>
>It's not that I don't want people to use the material. (If that was
the
>issue, I wouldn't have made it available!)
>
> It's that I want to ensure that I get credit for my work.  Ever
since my
>first Internet exploration revealed one of my Traveller programs,
with
>someone else's name attached, I've been touchy about this. The
flaming I
>got from certain former TML members didn't help, either. 
>
>I could enable text selection. Would that allow people to copy stats
out? 
>
>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like
the
>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...

	Is there ANYBODY on this list who uses things "straight out of the
box?" I tweak. I fiddle. I put together player handouts. I modify. I
improve. I usually try to give credit, but sometimes I lose track ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:55:08 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: How to "unstuff" older TML Archives

At 09:23 pm 2/19/99 EST, you wrote:
>Greetings All:
>
>While skimming old TML Digests (looking for some adventure ideas), I
noticed
>that I had never received the following from 1998: issues 151-154
(inclusive).
>
>I downloaded the archive editions of these, but how does one
"unstuff" or
>"unzip" these archives? The file is called:
>
>tml-v1998-n150-n159.tar.Z

	The later versions of WinZip quite nicely handle this Unix
peculiarity. Unless I'm seriously lost, this is a Tape Archive (tar)
file which has later been compressed, Tape Archive being a way to
collect multiple files together, unfortunately without compression.
Which is why it's been compressed (.z)!

	Funny, last time I had to go through such contortions in the
MicroSloth world was way back in 1984, when I organized archives into
.LBR library files with LU, and then SQueezed them ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 
   House for sale in Colorado Springs!
   http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/House

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:45:00 -0500
From: "Ethan Henry" <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: GURPs Traveller

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
> Just answer the question.  Must suck to stumble around a
> smoke-filled cave.

Ugh. It's too subjective to answer. Besides, most people don't evaluate game
systems in terms of what they hate, they evaluate them in terms of what they
like. And an entire game system is a bit too big to make sweeping statements
about - it's like saying "What sucks about French (the language)?" - it's a
bit vague and more than a bit subjective. It could be argued that GURPS has
been designed to not suck, making it impossible to list any deficiencies
with the system.

GURPS, from my limited experience with it, is a good system. There are lots
of specific rules, all built from a good generic rule base. It's been beat
on by a large number of people, which is a good thing. The publisher is
unlikely to go out of business any time soon. The major difference between
GURPS and most other game systems is the point-based character generation
system, which has its pros and cons. What sucks about it? I dunno, that it's
not free. That it's not printed on tyvek instead of paper. That I don't get
paid to read it. I've never had an orgasm from licking page 44. It's not
chocolate-flavoured. It doesn't sing. It never painted my house. It has yet
to break the world land-speed record . It's not Canadian. It taunts
children. It once de-frosted my refrigerator.

My suggestion is to go borrow the GURPS basic book from someone you know or
take a long read of it in your FLGS.

Ethan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:42:46 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller and Turrets

Well, ok.

So in a nutshell, I WAS suffering from a GCE, right?


> >GURPS Traveller turrets.
> >
> >If I have a turret and load three weapons on it, how many spaces
> >does it take up?  One or four?
> 
> 
> It takes up one space. This is the "rotation space" inside the turret 
for
> the equipment that moves it. The turret itself is outside the hull and 
can
> hold up to three spaces of weapons.
> 
> >If it is one, then can I assume that the space allocated for the 
turret
> >contains the "slice" of reactor power and all the other things 
necessary
> >for the weapons (missiles, sand buckets, etc), no matter which of 
the
> >weapons I put on it?
> 
> The size of the weapon should ideally contain the power slice, and 
should
> add up to 1 space total; you can put three spaces of weapons into 
a turret
> (as the rules state)/
> 
> 
> >What about Hull Mount?  It gets you nothing if the answer is one,
> >except for less space (2 dTons less).  And fewer firing arcs 
(which
> >isn't really a problem with the new combat system in GT).
> 
> 
> Hull-mountes weapons take up their number of spaces in the hull, 
and every
> three spaces mounted eats up one "hardpoint" for turrets. Myself, 
I see no
> advantage to them except on small craft.
> 
> 
> >What is the use of Hull Mounting a Bay Weapon?  You get 
nothing
> >there either except for loss of firing arcs (see above statement 
on
> >firing arcs).
> 
> 
> I myself would not do this.
> 


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:55:29 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

"Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> writes:
>GURPS Traveller turrets.  
>
>If I have a turret and load three weapons on it, how many spaces 
>does it take up?  One or four?  

The turret takes up one internal space, empty or full.  If empty, you can
use the turret spaces for small cargo. The weapons go inside the turret
spaces (3 spaces per turret).

>
>If it is one, then can I assume that the space allocated for the turret 
>contains the "slice" of reactor power and all the other things 
>necessary for the weapons (missiles, sand buckets, etc), no matter 
>which of the weapons I put on it?

Apparently. This is (I was told) a necessary simplification. I suspect
many of us think that calculating power separately would have been better,
but that's a decision David made.

>
>What about Hull Mount?  It gets you nothing if the answer is one, 
>except for less space (2 dTons less).  And fewer firing arcs (which 
>isn't really a problem with the new combat system in GT).  

In _my_ Traveller universe, hull mount weapons can be fired by the pilot,
and only the pilot, while turret-mount weapons require a gunner. Plus you
don't need to pay for the turret. Your mileage may vary.

>
>What is the use of Hull Mounting a Bay Weapon?  You get nothing 
>there either except for loss of firing arcs (see above statement on 
>firing arcs).

Again, in my TU I would rule that bay mounts _have_ to be in bays.
>
>If the answer is four, then does that mean a Bay Weapon takes up 
>100 spaces and not just 50?  Also, if it is four, then, to me, that 
>explains why you can put three hull mount weapons on the hull and 
>and take up the room for one "hardpoint."  You gain one space.

No, a bay has 50 internal spaces, and take up 50 internal spaces, so there
is no net saving. (Ie. bays are internal, _not_ "honking big turrets".) 
This is while I rule that bay weapons must be in a bay. 
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #183
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 184



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Intellectual Property
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:01:14 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

<brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>
>
>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>information
>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>paper in Word).

No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
you've selected it?

>
>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.

There are people like that everywhere. But copyright violation is a matter
for civil courts, which means that I would have to dig up the money to
prosecute... 

>
>Don't punish the sincere because of the offenses of those without morals.
>OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you ARE
>doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.

Not trying to punish anyone, just protect myself.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:12:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:06:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Jason Kemp wrote:

> > 1 - Fuel and supplies limited to 4 weeks with no Type 4 (extended,
> > fully closed loop LS). Initially I put this down to poor Vilani
> > biomedical technology. This is not the case, because in their
> > early space exploration they launched several sublight missions to
> > nearby systems. Obviously their technology is quite capable of
> > extended LS. The reason they don't use it is political. By severely
> > restricting the endurance of starships, you also equally restrict
> > their ability to operate outside of the established trade routes
> > and even more importantly, outside of the ZS borders.

While I certainly don't wish to imply that Z.S. had any positive
functionality -- since we know that wasn't the case -- </sarcasm> perhaps
these two design features (and fuel purification plants, below) could be
less paranoiacally explained in terms of Z.S. having a more widespread
starport infrastructure than the 3I.  That is, every destination would
have facilities to refuel and renew life support -- making it inefficient
to lug the spares around through jump all the time.  The Vilani, after
all, were supposed to be masters of organization & efficiency...

> > 7 - Passenger capacity - This is likely to be lower than usual. In
> > the ZS people are tied to a particular geographic location
> > (related to their workplace). Therefore it does not seem
> > unreasonable to assume that passenger volumes are lower than in
> > latter periods. Also I would imagine that the central government
> > may discourage travel on a "divide and rule" principle  (though
> > this point is quite debatable).

Yes <G>.

First, there's not any "canonical" reference that I'm aware of to Z.S.
limiting its citizens' mobility.  It's a new creation of Andrew's, one
which makes little sense to me.

Which leads on to the second issue:  "divide and rule".  I think Z.S.'s
policy would be exactly the opposite, actually:  unify and rule.  The
Vilani wanted there to be a culturally and socially homogeneous
interstellar domain, right?  A policy of 'divide and rule' is geared to
produce a heterogeneous one -- and to me, much better describes the 3I,
with its mostly-enforced rule against multi-system states within the
Imperium yet allowance of local "cultural regions" or "autonomous
districts" as regional counterweights, settlement of power and authority
(both political & military) on local levels, etc.

Would ramble more in contrarian Vilanology, but I have to go translate a
long text on the evils of rabbits into classical Chinese, with Mencius as
the stylistic model.  Please forgive me.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:16:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<

Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.

But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:10:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Okay, I've got 3 copies of this message.  You MIGHT want to call up your
ISP?

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller


>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>
>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>
>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>
>
>
>==
>------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>
>                      ICQ 31012781
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:18:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

That's 4 copies!  You must be stuck in a loop.  Somebody smack that robot
with a 2 X 4!

- --Clif
- -----Original Message-----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller


>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>
>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:20:09 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

Small Claims Courts' limit of $5000 isn't enough?  www.JudgeJudy.com

Put 'em on TV.  And get publicity for Traveller in the process.

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property


><brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>>
>>
>>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>>information
>>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>>paper in Word).
>
>No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
>wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
>text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
>you've selected it?
>
>>
>>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.
>
>There are people like that everywhere. But copyright violation is a matter
>for civil courts, which means that I would have to dig up the money to
>prosecute... 
>
>>
>>Don't punish the sincere because of the offenses of those without morals.
>>OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you ARE
>>doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.
>
>Not trying to punish anyone, just protect myself.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
...
>        I understand that Striker indicates that a beam laser is about the
>hitting power of a 100mm CPR gun, and that may seem more sane.  However, I
>am not sure if that is reasonable for a ship-killing weapon power, either.
>Way too low, I think.

  Closer to "way beyond huge naval gun firepower" - a 100mm at TL 8 is
probably Penetration ~45, tops, while the laser may be around Pen 90 or
so. Every 8 is a doubling, so the CPR/MD is down by about 98%?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation
...
>	The purpose of foundations is to provide a level, solid ... er ...
...
>force. In fact, I recall seeing articles which showed buildings
>resting on *rollers* on top of the foundation.

  IIRC, at least one of those is here in Vancouver (earthquake zone; at
least our Big One might get Redmond as well)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:17 -0500
From: "Paul Rocchi" <paul_rocchi@sns.ca>
Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)

In the Digest, I saw the following:

> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:25:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
>
> At 03:55 PM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >>I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
> >>(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
> >>*NOT* one of them.
> >
> >The writer(s?) was a visionary man, even if it was while he was dropping
> >acid.  Those robot/aliens at the beginning were hardly your standard
> >cookie-cutter Star Trek/Star Wars alien.  And how about the expressive
> >nature of those other aliens' ears?
>
> Clif, would you like a list of the authors working in the 1930s and 40s
> that "Fifth Element" ripped off?  Then entire movie's look was taken from
> old issues of _Heavy Metal_, especially the work of Mobius.

I don't really think you can say "Ripped Off". Look at the credits. Under
"Designers" - Jean Giraud.  Who is, of course, the artist who signs his
comics work Moebius.

Damn hard for him to Rip Off Himself, no?
>
> As for the ears...  from _A Relic of Empire_, Larry Niven, first published
> in the late sixties:
>
> "Piracy was only the end product.  It started a year ago, when I found the
> puppeteer system."
> "The-"
> "Yes.  The puppeteers' home system."
> Richard Mann's ears went straight up.  He was from Wunderland, remember?
>
> Actually, add all of Niven's stuff to your to-read list.
>

True. Niven is what I call an "old school" SF writer. One who worries about
the nuts and bolts of the technology he uses as well as the social changes
it engenders. In this he's much more like Asimov, Clarke and Heinlein than
most of the other writers of the 60's, when he began to be published, an
even moe so now.

> >>Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
> >>M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)
>
> >Sorry, but I've never heard one of these, and by the sound of what you're
> >describing, can you really hear any whir over the ear-shattering gunfire?
>
> Absolutely.  In fact, you don't actually hear the shots, just
> that constant ripping noise.  Very impressive.

Yup.. sound's like God's grabbed both sides of the sky and YANKED.. you
expect to see the part in the fabric any moment.

>
> >The Ruby Rod ("Baton Rouge" my dad said), Red Dick character was pretty
> >annoying but I have to give it a high score on originality.  I mean, what
> >WAS that tube looking thing on his head?
>
> That was an effects depart with very little imagination told to "make him
> look futuristic."  Which we all know means slap something on his head.

Or told "make him look like a Dork" - which they did.

> If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
> Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller
> players, _Dark Star_.

No arguments on this.

I would say the problem with Fifth Element was that it was advertised to the
North American market as a Hard SF Thriller. Bruce Willis's name was
emphasized, and the commercials cut to show action and explosions.  That's
not what Luc Besson produced, and so it flopped, in part because the average
american Action movie goer took one look and said "huh? What kind of shit is
this?" and left.

It was a massive hit in Europe, where Besson and Giraud were the names that
were emphasized in the ads, and the movie was placed as a soft thriller with
visuals designed by "Moebius" - a name much more in the public eye there
than in North America. The Euro-fans got a much better idea of what they
were getting, and came out in droves.

My theory is that had this movie been done in French by some european
production company with european stars, rather than by Sony, in english,
with american actors, the subtitled version would be considered much more a
genre classic than the movie we have, with north american fans who had seen
it raving about it to those who had not. But that's the road not taken.

> - --
>


Paul Rocchi, Postmaster, SNS/Assure Corp

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:20:42 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Clif wrote:

>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?

Maybe the problem is your approach. You convey this bombastic personality
online, which I'm sure you're quite proud of, and some people don't react
well to that. If you really want an answer to your question, maybe you
should try to rephrase it in a more articulate manner.

However, if "being you" is more important to you, then by all means keep up
your current approach. Just don't expect everyone to readily answer your
posts.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:24:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
...
>>There is no objective answer to this.
>
>What are you talking about?  Any person who has played a number of
>role-playing games can offer his opinion and the support for his opinion,

  That would be a _subjective_ answer.

...
>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?

  i) No. ii) Yes? iib) But it certainly isn't you.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:26:58 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property


><brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>>
>>
>>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>>information
>>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>>paper in Word).
>
>No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
>wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
>text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
>you've selected it?
>

No, you misunderstand.  For the same reason people like html for its
accessibility and ability to be manipulated, so that they can take info and
paste into a research paper and THEN document the source, players would like
to be able to take a "webbook" (.html webbooks exist) 's text and copy and
paste it somewhere else.  For example, maybe I'm running a PBEM and want to
copy just SOME of a bunch of vehicles' stats from multiple sources to make a
"used car lot" for my campaign. Well, I can't do that with your book (or any
regular book).  No, I have to type it all in.  That's not a REAL big problem
for me, since I can type fast, but for others, it is going to be even more
of a problem.  Maybe I don't want the players to know all of the stats.
Well, then I have to do like the old days and photocopy pages and cut and
paste portions of stats onto a piece of paper and then photocopy that.

Starting to get the picture?  If your source can't be copy and pasted, it
becomes like any other book, and IMO, copy and pasted is just like quoting,
if you provide the references.

And what GM takes parenthetical time to comment, "I created this ship but I
didn't create that one.  Rob Prior did that one"?  Players don't care.
They're about to get blown out of orbit by a mysterious ship they've never
seen before.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:28:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

That's 5 copies.  I think it is becoming pretty clear that you have some
kind of documentable problem.

- --Clif

>
>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:29:14 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Clif posted:
>
> *Sigh of relief*  Thank you!
>
> I'd like to know what you are doing to deal with the issues you
mentioned.
>
>- --Clif

No prob.

>First, being a MegaTraveller diehard who's seriously
>considering converting to G:T, one of the things
>I don't like is the ridiculous amount of "advantages"
>which duplicate each other or which duplicate the
>effect of high characteristics. This useless 
>complication of the rules really irritates me and 
>I've crossed out most of the advantages in my books,
>leaving only the unique ones.

>IMO, if a player wants the benefits associated
>with a high stat, buy the high stat.

This one's pretty self-explanatory. Since I have
no intention of ever selling my GURPS books, I
hack/slash/markup/highlight any changes I want.

I'm also seriously considering cutting off the
binding and organizing the info any way I want it.
A nice thing about the GURPS books is there plenty
of margin along the binding to punch holes for a
three-ring binder or to have a copying store (like
Kinko's in Texas) rebind it for me.

>Second, there are *so many*, actually learning to
>play the game can be a real pain. Basically, the
>most difficult thing about GURPS is figuring out what
>rules you _don't_ want to use. Using all the combat
>rules really slows down the game.

Definitely download the GURPSLite rules, playtest
and learn them, then add in the rules you like. 
Unfortunately, this can take quite a bit of time to
playtest but, in the long run, it's worth it.

IMO, the most critical GURPS books for this are:
Basic Rules
Compendium I
Compendium II

Don't get either of the Compendiums until you've
identified all the Basic Rules you do/don't want
to add onto GURPSLite. The Compendiums contain
rules taken from other publications which have
proven most useful across the most campaign
backgrounds (the rules, not the publications).

Once you're finished with the Compendiums, *then*
look at the individual publications. BTW, I'm
referring strictly to those publications which
you're considering for additional rules. If you
want just background, by all means, pick up
the publications which grab your interest. 
"StarMercs" is very good for this (and not just
because I playtested it) as is "Behind the Claw".

>Third, I find the use of the U.S. standard of
>measurement a real pain after nearly two decades(!)
>of using the metric system for Traveller and I
>think the spread of technology within a single Tech
>Level in GURPS is far too great. A Sopwith Camel is
>lumped together with a Korean-war era F-86 jet
>interceptor.

These two issues require some work. To keep my
work down, I'm rounding US measurements to their
nearest metric equivalents. Example: "cubic yards"
become "cubic meters" and damn the difference.
I'm playing a game, not modeling reality for an
employer. I make sure my players know this up
front and give them my blessing as GM to do the same.
Any arguments between a player and me which arise
from these differences are settled by high die
roll. If I lose, I lose.

Re: TLs, I'm looking into the use of "fractional"
TLs. As an example, assuming propellor aircraft is
first available at TL7 with 1990's jet aircraft
available at TL8, I'd would place WWI-era propellor
aircraft (Sopwith Camels) at TL7.2, WWII-era props
(Spitfires/P-51 Mustangs) at TL7.4, subsonic
jets/rocket aircraft (Me-262 German jets?) at TL 7.7,
supersonic jets (F-86 and better) at TL8.

This methodology was first discussed in one of
the old JTAS's.

>Fourth, because of the way SJG uses different
>publications to focus on different aspects of a
>campaign (medieval combat vs. space combat), IMO it's
>necessary to buy multiple books in order to have
>a well-rounded Traveller campaign. I'm finding it
>necessary to either copy and combine sections
>from different books or rip sections out of various
>books in order to have a  comprehensive set of combat
>rules which cover medieval man-to-man up to 50th 
>century starship combat.

"This is not a bug, it's a feature."  ;-)
This is handled the same way as Issue #1 above.
The fact that SJG has published generic rules
in the Basic Rulesbook, then expands/replaces
them in a more focused "milieu" book is actually
beneficial in the long run. I personally like
the Martial Arts book over the more generic
judo/karate definitions in the Basic Rules.
I still pick and choose the MA rules I want to
use and will trash these rules in favor of
playability in a heartbeat. It all depends on
what my players enjoy the most.

If I do combine pages from various books, I make
sure I label each page as to which book and
version it came from. Cuts down on arguments and
helps me upgrade to a better version.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:31:04 -0800
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Three?  I think I've actually gotten more than that....
Jesse




>Okay, I've got 3 copies of this message.  You MIGHT want to call up your
>ISP?
>
>--Clif
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:07 PM
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>
>>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>>
>>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>>
>>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>>
>>
>>
>>==
>>------------------------><>------------------------
>>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>>
>>                      ICQ 31012781
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:32:40 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 01:51 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I want
>>>to know what sucks about it!
>>
>>It's utterly awful.
>>
>>In fact, all of Traveller is a cess-pit of despair and pathos.  We are
>>trapped, but there is still hope for you!  Run, before you become as we
>are!!!
>>
>>Save yourself, Clif!
>>--
>>
>>Doug Berry
>
>
>C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
>is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...
>
>--Clif
>
>

Clif, I am a CT player from way back and a GURPS player sence the boxed set
so perhaps I can help.

If you mean how it compared the CT.

Good things about Gurps.

Characters do not die in creation.
Charaters all all about equal.
Rules have more depth.
More suport products.
Charaters develope in a reasonable way in a reasonable time period.
Realistic combat.
Players get their points by playing their character.

Bad.

Charaters all all about equal.
Charaters effectiveness often depend on the player ability to tweek them.
Rules are more complecated.
Having to buy the support products.
Characters can become so powerfull as to upset the game. (GM shood take care.)
Deadly combat.
Point pandering by overplaying obnoctious disadvantaves. (GM can fix this.)

Anything else you'd like to know?  I sorry if this it not what exactly what
you asked for but I thought a comparision would be helpful.  I like both but
generally prefer GT because of the greater support products and that
characters can grow in a controled and meaningfull way.  

If you want a 'sucks' problem then it would be how gurps deals with very
high skill levels (25+) and that it is difficult to balence high damage
weapons and character suvivability in a realistic campain.  Most who play
GURPS learn quickly that combat can and does kill the careless and unprepared.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #184
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 185



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller
GURPS Traveller... sucking or otherwise
Re: GURPS Traveller
The Professional
Re: Out-of-Character comments
Re: Above the Law Level 
Re: Andre Norton
Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)
Re: Those who support delusions
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #184

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:36:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Maybe the problem is your approach. You convey this bombastic personality
>online, which I'm sure you're quite proud of, and some people don't react
>well to that. If you really want an answer to your question, maybe you
>should try to rephrase it in a more articulate manner.

I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist non-answers
which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so the
"nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:38:39 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: GURPS Traveller... sucking or otherwise

Some people like GT, some hate it. Most like some things about it and
dislike others. Without getting into varying degrees of relative suckiness,
you can safely say this:

The GT materials can mostly be used with any rules (ie most of any book, not
most books).
GURPS rules work OK, some folks think they're great and others dislike them.

Other than a few idiots like the guy who privately emailed me and ordered...
I'll repeat that... ordered me not to write GURPS material, most people seem
to think that GURPS Traveller is an acceptable version of the great game,
with merits of its own (and probably some drawbacks too).

Without getting into the "what's real traveller" issue, I can say that the
designers tried to keep to the spirit and canon of the setting, and the
feeling of the game. I believe they succeeded, but what the hell do I know?

So; in my own opinion, the only one I can reliably quote:

NOTHING sucks about GURPS Traveller.

And yes, I do get a commission.
MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:39:18 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>>>There is no objective answer to this.
>>
>>What are you talking about?  Any person who has played a number of
>>role-playing games can offer his opinion and the support for his opinion,
>
>  That would be a _subjective_ answer.
>
I know that opinions are subjective, but the supports for the opinions can
be objective, if they can be demonstrated.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:43:52 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: The Professional

>It was a massive hit in Europe, where Besson and Giraud were the names that
>were emphasized in the ads

Having seen "The Professional" with Natalie Portman, I would have seen Fifth
Element based on the name Luc Besson.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:49:52 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Out-of-Character comments

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:20:03 -0500, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>OOC> I'm not really sure which if any faction Thucydides belongs to or
>speaks for, but this is very much a traditionalist view of Cleon's
>Imperium. The evidence indicates that Strephon had decentralized the
>Imperium considerably by stregthening the Archdukes; this would
>represent a continuace of this model of the Imperium. 

>However, it's also noted in canon, that Strephon was indeed interested
>in Dulinor's thoughts...that's why he elevated the man to archduke in
>the first place...None of the resulting factions of the Rebellion
>espoused these ideas in toto, though Norris came closest, and even he
>bowed to the inevitable and unified Deneb more than the Imperium had
>been.

>Call him the voice of History   ;-)

Actually, if we (as XXc list members) look at the extant material
on the Rebellion, it becomes possible to suggest several options
for Thucydides' identity.

First:  Consider the actions of Margaret in the Rebellion.  Her
faction, with the support of Tukera, essentially maintained the
former Imperial structure unchanged, with the same lack of
activism that 'Gallatin' wishes to change.  Thucydides could
therefore be Margaret, any of the nobles who would have supported
her in the Rebellion, or any of the megacorporation movers and
shakers, as it is their interests that are served by the current
Imperium.

Second: Thucydides argued for maintenance of the status quo, as
you point out.  That's a very Vilani attitude.  Granted, it's not
the Vilani model that's being supported, but it can be argued (as
Thucydides does) that the Vilani model was a failure (although
the Vilani would maintain that this was because the upstart
Terrans, without due consideration, tossed out all of the Vilani
traditions without providing stabilizing substitutes).  So, the
next best thing would be the status quo - and hey, it's only been
used for the last thousand years; shouldn't we give it a fair
trial first?

The other thing to remember is that events didn't fall out here
as they did in the TNE universe - so those events don't influence
the thinking of the 'major players'.  Given that Dulinor was the
instigator in the TNE universe and that Norris did his thing
without direct involvement in the Rebellion, it's reasonable to
assume (as I did) that their attitudes won't necessarily change
much - and Norris went far beyond what Dulinor _said_ he wanted.
Thus, 'Gallatin' (Dulinor) and 'Dilgaadin' (Norris) are both on
the same side, but Norris feels that Dulinor is being too timid.

I think we're off to a reasonably good start on this; I hope
others choose to join in.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:16:56 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level 

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Where can I take an honest look at ACQ?  I'd like a system which determines
>what part of the body is injured.


1) You will be able to buy ACQ via SJG once we have laid it out into the
101 book, completed any illustrations, printed it and shipped it to the
USA, and then had SJG add it to their catalog. This assumes that they order
it straight away and don't wait for a re-order.

2) ACQ doesn't use hit locations, instead it has increased damage hits if
you go above the target number. Kind of MT-like if I think about it...

>What is Lunion?

A subsector and a world in the Spinward Marches. You know, the setting that
has been the standard in four of the five rules editions of Traveller ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:08:16 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>> Sadly missing from my collection.
>>>Voodoo Planet (usually found in a Ace double with Star Hunter)
>> Ditto...
>
>Merely because they've been out of print since 1970 or so...

Hmm. *I* wasn't in print back then ;-)

Just a twinkle in my father's eye....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:11:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Heinlein (was Re: PBEM)

"Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote:
>BTW, I also loved the
>Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry Harrison and his book that the movie
>"Blade Runner" was based on.

You mean the Philip K Dick book(*) that "Bladerunner" was based on?

(*) Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:48:53 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <l03110702b2f63f05f57b@[195.102.200.254]>, SD Mooney
><dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes
>>>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
>>A carrot is under EU law.
>Only when the Portuguese make jam out of it.

Yes. And? ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:54:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 01:14 PM 2/23/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Clif posted:
>>
>> Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!
>I ask
>> for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I
>want
>> to know what sucks about it!
>>
>>- --Clif
>
>First, being a MegaTraveller diehard who's seriously
>considering converting to G:T, one of the things
>I don't like is the ridiculous amount of "advantages"
>which duplicate each other or which duplicate the
>effect of high characteristics. This useless 
>complication of the rules really irritates me and 
>I've crossed out most of the advantages in my books,
>leaving only the unique ones.
>
>IMO, if a player wants the benefits associated
>with a high stat, buy the high stat.
>

Can you give me some examples to see what you mean?

If I wanted a character that could run a long way but was not very strong
I'd take high running skill and extra fatigue, not a high strength score.

You are right about having to buy a lot of book though, but then again there
is a lot of information in those book that can spur adventure ideas.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:54:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>It may have been a perfectly reasonable statement (that's debatable), but it
>wasn't a logical answer to my question.
>
>--Clif
>
>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?
>
>

Perhaps you would have gotten more usable responces if you would have
phrased your question more diplomaticly like, "What are the weaknesses in
the Gurps system?"

When you ask for 'what sucks' you put people in a negative frame of mind and
make them defensive and warry.  One of the secrets to successfull
interogation is to develope a positive or 'yes' attitude in the person you
are questioning or as the old saying goes, 'you catch more flies with honey
than with veneger.'  People generally preffer to be conversed with instead
of cross examined.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:40:37 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Clif,

If you are wondering about GURPS Traveller,  I would suggest that you go to
the site 

		WWW.RPG.NET

	and go to the review section and look at the reviews there (click on reviews,
look at datbase sorted by company, look under Steve jackson Games).  There are
several reviews of GURPS Traveller there, some positive, some negative, but
you'll get a good idea of what to expect.

			Dave Nelson

P.S. my personal view is the basic GURPS Trav book is a waste unless you
actually want to play GURPS system rules (which I don't)--but StarMercs is
great for any version of Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:13:07 -0600
From: Jennie Harder <jharder@blc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #184

 Digest people:, 
Please remove my e-mail address from your server.  I do not wich to receive
info anymore!!! Thanks.



At 04:33 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 184
>
>
>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
>All rights reserved.
>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:
>
>Re: Intellectual Property
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: Intellectual Property
>Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
>Re: Deckplan Orientation
>Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: Intellectual Property
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:01:14 -0500
>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Subject: Re: Intellectual Property
>
><brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>>
>>
>>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>>information
>>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>>paper in Word).
>
>No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
>wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
>text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
>you've selected it?
>
>>
>>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.
>
>There are people like that everywhere. But copyright violation is a matter
>for civil courts, which means that I would have to dig up the money to
>prosecute... 
>
>>
>>Don't punish the sincere because of the offenses of those without morals.
>>OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you ARE
>>doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.
>
>Not trying to punish anyone, just protect myself.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:12:28 -0800 (PST)
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>
>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>
>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>
>
>
>==
>- ------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
>
>                      ICQ 31012781
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:06:39 -0500 (EST)
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
>
>On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Jason Kemp wrote:
>
>> > 1 - Fuel and supplies limited to 4 weeks with no Type 4 (extended,
>> > fully closed loop LS). Initially I put this down to poor Vilani
>> > biomedical technology. This is not the case, because in their
>> > early space exploration they launched several sublight missions to
>> > nearby systems. Obviously their technology is quite capable of
>> > extended LS. The reason they don't use it is political. By severely
>> > restricting the endurance of starships, you also equally restrict
>> > their ability to operate outside of the established trade routes
>> > and even more importantly, outside of the ZS borders.
>
>While I certainly don't wish to imply that Z.S. had any positive
>functionality -- since we know that wasn't the case -- </sarcasm> perhaps
>these two design features (and fuel purification plants, below) could be
>less paranoiacally explained in terms of Z.S. having a more widespread
>starport infrastructure than the 3I.  That is, every destination would
>have facilities to refuel and renew life support -- making it inefficient
>to lug the spares around through jump all the time.  The Vilani, after
>all, were supposed to be masters of organization & efficiency...
>
>> > 7 - Passenger capacity - This is likely to be lower than usual. In
>> > the ZS people are tied to a particular geographic location
>> > (related to their workplace). Therefore it does not seem
>> > unreasonable to assume that passenger volumes are lower than in
>> > latter periods. Also I would imagine that the central government
>> > may discourage travel on a "divide and rule" principle  (though
>> > this point is quite debatable).
>
>Yes <G>.
>
>First, there's not any "canonical" reference that I'm aware of to Z.S.
>limiting its citizens' mobility.  It's a new creation of Andrew's, one
>which makes little sense to me.
>
>Which leads on to the second issue:  "divide and rule".  I think Z.S.'s
>policy would be exactly the opposite, actually:  unify and rule.  The
>Vilani wanted there to be a culturally and socially homogeneous
>interstellar domain, right?  A policy of 'divide and rule' is geared to
>produce a heterogeneous one -- and to me, much better describes the 3I,
>with its mostly-enforced rule against multi-system states within the
>Imperium yet allowance of local "cultural regions" or "autonomous
>districts" as regional counterweights, settlement of power and authority
>(both political & military) on local levels, etc.
>
>Would ramble more in contrarian Vilanology, but I have to go translate a
>long text on the evils of rabbits into classical Chinese, with Mencius as
>the stylistic model.  Please forgive me.
>
>Kenji
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:16:01 -0800 (PST)
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>
>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>
>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>
>
>
>==
>- ------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
>
>                      ICQ 31012781
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:10:45 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>Okay, I've got 3 copies of this message.  You MIGHT want to call up your
>ISP?
>
>- --Clif
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:07 PM
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>
>>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>>
>>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>>
>>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>>
>>
>>
>>==
>>------------------------><>------------------------
>>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>>
>>                      ICQ 31012781
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:18:21 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>That's 4 copies!  You must be stuck in a loop.  Somebody smack that robot
>with a 2 X 4!
>
>- --Clif
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:12 PM
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>
>>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>>
>>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:20:09 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Intellectual Property
>
>Small Claims Courts' limit of $5000 isn't enough?  www.JudgeJudy.com
>
>Put 'em on TV.  And get publicity for Traveller in the process.
>
>- --Clif
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:10 PM
>Subject: Re: Intellectual Property
>
>
>><brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>>>
>>>
>>>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>>>information
>>>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>>>paper in Word).
>>
>>No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
>>wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
>>text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
>>you've selected it?
>>
>>>
>>>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>>>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>>>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.
>>
>>There are people like that everywhere. But copyright violation is a matter
>>for civil courts, which means that I would have to dig up the money to
>>prosecute... 
>>
>>>
>>>Don't punish the sincere because of the offenses of those without morals.
>>>OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you ARE
>>>doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.
>>
>>Not trying to punish anyone, just protect myself.
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:40 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
>
>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
>...
>>        I understand that Striker indicates that a beam laser is about the
>>hitting power of a 100mm CPR gun, and that may seem more sane.  However, I
>>am not sure if that is reasonable for a ship-killing weapon power, either.
>>Way too low, I think.
>
>  Closer to "way beyond huge naval gun firepower" - a 100mm at TL 8 is
>probably Penetration ~45, tops, while the laser may be around Pen 90 or
>so. Every 8 is a doubling, so the CPR/MD is down by about 98%?
>
>        Steven Hudson
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:45 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation
>
>>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>>Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation
>...
>>	The purpose of foundations is to provide a level, solid ... er ...
>...
>>force. In fact, I recall seeing articles which showed buildings
>>resting on *rollers* on top of the foundation.
>
>  IIRC, at least one of those is here in Vancouver (earthquake zone; at
>least our Big One might get Redmond as well)
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:17 -0500
>From: "Paul Rocchi" <paul_rocchi@sns.ca>
>Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
>
>In the Digest, I saw the following:
>
>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:25:10
>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>> Subject: Re: There is no Originality --Nat Merchant (10,000 Maniacs)
>>
>> At 03:55 PM 2/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >>I've heard a lot of adjectives used in relation to "The 5th Element"
>> >>(which I personally like as well, but as head candy).  "Visionary" is
>> >>*NOT* one of them.
>> >
>> >The writer(s?) was a visionary man, even if it was while he was dropping
>> >acid.  Those robot/aliens at the beginning were hardly your standard
>> >cookie-cutter Star Trek/Star Wars alien.  And how about the expressive
>> >nature of those other aliens' ears?
>>
>> Clif, would you like a list of the authors working in the 1930s and 40s
>> that "Fifth Element" ripped off?  Then entire movie's look was taken from
>> old issues of _Heavy Metal_, especially the work of Mobius.
>
>I don't really think you can say "Ripped Off". Look at the credits. Under
>"Designers" - Jean Giraud.  Who is, of course, the artist who signs his
>comics work Moebius.
>
>Damn hard for him to Rip Off Himself, no?
>>
>> As for the ears...  from _A Relic of Empire_, Larry Niven, first published
>> in the late sixties:
>>
>> "Piracy was only the end product.  It started a year ago, when I found the
>> puppeteer system."
>> "The-"
>> "Yes.  The puppeteers' home system."
>> Richard Mann's ears went straight up.  He was from Wunderland, remember?
>>
>> Actually, add all of Niven's stuff to your to-read list.
>>
>
>True. Niven is what I call an "old school" SF writer. One who worries about
>the nuts and bolts of the technology he uses as well as the social changes
>it engenders. In this he's much more like Asimov, Clarke and Heinlein than
>most of the other writers of the 60's, when he began to be published, an
>even moe so now.
>
>> >>Yup, just exactly the same kind of neat whirring sound made by the
>> >>M-134 "six pack" and M-214 rotary cannons.  *Very* original! :^) :^)
>>
>> >Sorry, but I've never heard one of these, and by the sound of what you're
>> >describing, can you really hear any whir over the ear-shattering gunfire?
>>
>> Absolutely.  In fact, you don't actually hear the shots, just
>> that constant ripping noise.  Very impressive.
>
>Yup.. sound's like God's grabbed both sides of the sky and YANKED.. you
>expect to see the part in the fabric any moment.
>
>>
>> >The Ruby Rod ("Baton Rouge" my dad said), Red Dick character was pretty
>> >annoying but I have to give it a high score on originality.  I mean, what
>> >WAS that tube looking thing on his head?
>>
>> That was an effects depart with very little imagination told to "make him
>> look futuristic."  Which we all know means slap something on his head.
>
>Or told "make him look like a Dork" - which they did.
>
>> If you want visionary film SF, go rent _Silent Running_, _A Boy and His
>> Dog_, _2001: A Space Odyssey_, or, best of all for Traveller
>> players, _Dark Star_.
>
>No arguments on this.
>
>I would say the problem with Fifth Element was that it was advertised to the
>North American market as a Hard SF Thriller. Bruce Willis's name was
>emphasized, and the commercials cut to show action and explosions.  That's
>not what Luc Besson produced, and so it flopped, in part because the average
>american Action movie goer took one look and said "huh? What kind of shit is
>this?" and left.
>
>It was a massive hit in Europe, where Besson and Giraud were the names that
>were emphasized in the ads, and the movie was placed as a soft thriller with
>visuals designed by "Moebius" - a name much more in the public eye there
>than in North America. The Euro-fans got a much better idea of what they
>were getting, and came out in droves.
>
>My theory is that had this movie been done in French by some european
>production company with european stars, rather than by Sony, in english,
>with american actors, the subtitled version would be considered much more a
>genre classic than the movie we have, with north american fans who had seen
>it raving about it to those who had not. But that's the road not taken.
>
>> - --
>>
>
>
>Paul Rocchi, Postmaster, SNS/Assure Corp
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:20:42 -0800
>From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>Clif wrote:
>
>>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?
>
>Maybe the problem is your approach. You convey this bombastic personality
>online, which I'm sure you're quite proud of, and some people don't react
>well to that. If you really want an answer to your question, maybe you
>should try to rephrase it in a more articulate manner.
>
>However, if "being you" is more important to you, then by all means keep up
>your current approach. Just don't expect everyone to readily answer your
>posts.
>
>- ------------------------------------------------------------
>Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
>cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
>http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:24:19 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>...
>>>There is no objective answer to this.
>>
>>What are you talking about?  Any person who has played a number of
>>role-playing games can offer his opinion and the support for his opinion,
>
>  That would be a _subjective_ answer.
>
>...
>>P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS Traveller?
>>Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid you might offend if
>>you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?
>
>  i) No. ii) Yes? iib) But it certainly isn't you.
>
>        Steven Hudson
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:26:58 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: Intellectual Property
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:10 PM
>Subject: Re: Intellectual Property
>
>
>><brclif@digital.net>writes:
>>>>And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>>>>layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>>>
>>>
>>>For the same reason people put up .html documents... so that the
>>>information
>>>can be quickly accessed and used in another format (like for a research
>>>paper in Word).
>>
>>No, you misunderstand. I know why people put up HTML pages. I was
>>wondering why people (say yourself) might want my 101 WebBooks in
>>text-selectable format. Ie. what will you be doing with the data once
>>you've selected it?
>>
>No, you misunderstand.  For the same reason people like html for its
>accessibility and ability to be manipulated, so that they can take info and
>paste into a research paper and THEN document the source, players would like
>to be able to take a "webbook" (.html webbooks exist) 's text and copy and
>paste it somewhere else.  For example, maybe I'm running a PBEM and want to
>copy just SOME of a bunch of vehicles' stats from multiple sources to make a
>"used car lot" for my campaign. Well, I can't do that with your book (or any
>regular book).  No, I have to type it all in.  That's not a REAL big problem
>for me, since I can type fast, but for others, it is going to be even more
>of a problem.  Maybe I don't want the players to know all of the stats.
>Well, then I have to do like the old days and photocopy pages and cut and
>paste portions of stats onto a piece of paper and then photocopy that.
>
>Starting to get the picture?  If your source can't be copy and pasted, it
>becomes like any other book, and IMO, copy and pasted is just like quoting,
>if you provide the references.
>
>And what GM takes parenthetical time to comment, "I created this ship but I
>didn't create that one.  Rob Prior did that one"?  Players don't care.
>They're about to get blown out of orbit by a mysterious ship they've never
>seen before.
>
>- --Clif
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:28:25 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>That's 5 copies.  I think it is becoming pretty clear that you have some
>kind of documentable problem.
>
>- --Clif
>
>>
>>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:29:14 -0600
>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>Clif posted:
>>
>> *Sigh of relief*  Thank you!
>>
>> I'd like to know what you are doing to deal with the issues you
>mentioned.
>>
>>- --Clif
>
>No prob.
>
>>First, being a MegaTraveller diehard who's seriously
>>considering converting to G:T, one of the things
>>I don't like is the ridiculous amount of "advantages"
>>which duplicate each other or which duplicate the
>>effect of high characteristics. This useless 
>>complication of the rules really irritates me and 
>>I've crossed out most of the advantages in my books,
>>leaving only the unique ones.
>
>>IMO, if a player wants the benefits associated
>>with a high stat, buy the high stat.
>
>This one's pretty self-explanatory. Since I have
>no intention of ever selling my GURPS books, I
>hack/slash/markup/highlight any changes I want.
>
>I'm also seriously considering cutting off the
>binding and organizing the info any way I want it.
>A nice thing about the GURPS books is there plenty
>of margin along the binding to punch holes for a
>three-ring binder or to have a copying store (like
>Kinko's in Texas) rebind it for me.
>
>>Second, there are *so many*, actually learning to
>>play the game can be a real pain. Basically, the
>>most difficult thing about GURPS is figuring out what
>>rules you _don't_ want to use. Using all the combat
>>rules really slows down the game.
>
>Definitely download the GURPSLite rules, playtest
>and learn them, then add in the rules you like. 
>Unfortunately, this can take quite a bit of time to
>playtest but, in the long run, it's worth it.
>
>IMO, the most critical GURPS books for this are:
>Basic Rules
>Compendium I
>Compendium II
>
>Don't get either of the Compendiums until you've
>identified all the Basic Rules you do/don't want
>to add onto GURPSLite. The Compendiums contain
>rules taken from other publications which have
>proven most useful across the most campaign
>backgrounds (the rules, not the publications).
>
>Once you're finished with the Compendiums, *then*
>look at the individual publications. BTW, I'm
>referring strictly to those publications which
>you're considering for additional rules. If you
>want just background, by all means, pick up
>the publications which grab your interest. 
>"StarMercs" is very good for this (and not just
>because I playtested it) as is "Behind the Claw".
>
>>Third, I find the use of the U.S. standard of
>>measurement a real pain after nearly two decades(!)
>>of using the metric system for Traveller and I
>>think the spread of technology within a single Tech
>>Level in GURPS is far too great. A Sopwith Camel is
>>lumped together with a Korean-war era F-86 jet
>>interceptor.
>
>These two issues require some work. To keep my
>work down, I'm rounding US measurements to their
>nearest metric equivalents. Example: "cubic yards"
>become "cubic meters" and damn the difference.
>I'm playing a game, not modeling reality for an
>employer. I make sure my players know this up
>front and give them my blessing as GM to do the same.
>Any arguments between a player and me which arise
>from these differences are settled by high die
>roll. If I lose, I lose.
>
>Re: TLs, I'm looking into the use of "fractional"
>TLs. As an example, assuming propellor aircraft is
>first available at TL7 with 1990's jet aircraft
>available at TL8, I'd would place WWI-era propellor
>aircraft (Sopwith Camels) at TL7.2, WWII-era props
>(Spitfires/P-51 Mustangs) at TL7.4, subsonic
>jets/rocket aircraft (Me-262 German jets?) at TL 7.7,
>supersonic jets (F-86 and better) at TL8.
>
>This methodology was first discussed in one of
>the old JTAS's.
>
>>Fourth, because of the way SJG uses different
>>publications to focus on different aspects of a
>>campaign (medieval combat vs. space combat), IMO it's
>>necessary to buy multiple books in order to have
>>a well-rounded Traveller campaign. I'm finding it
>>necessary to either copy and combine sections
>>from different books or rip sections out of various
>>books in order to have a  comprehensive set of combat
>>rules which cover medieval man-to-man up to 50th 
>>century starship combat.
>
>"This is not a bug, it's a feature."  ;-)
>This is handled the same way as Issue #1 above.
>The fact that SJG has published generic rules
>in the Basic Rulesbook, then expands/replaces
>them in a more focused "milieu" book is actually
>beneficial in the long run. I personally like
>the Martial Arts book over the more generic
>judo/karate definitions in the Basic Rules.
>I still pick and choose the MA rules I want to
>use and will trash these rules in favor of
>playability in a heartbeat. It all depends on
>what my players enjoy the most.
>
>If I do combine pages from various books, I make
>sure I label each page as to which book and
>version it came from. Cuts down on arguments and
>helps me upgrade to a better version.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:31:04 -0800
>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>Three?  I think I've actually gotten more than that....
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
>>Okay, I've got 3 copies of this message.  You MIGHT want to call up your
>>ISP?
>>
>>--Clif
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>>To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>>Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:07 PM
>>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>>
>>
>>>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>>>> P.S.:  NOW, will someone please tell me what sucks about GURPS
>>>Traveller?  Is there someone on the list that you people are afraid
>>>you might offend if you say anything negative about it?  Is that it?<
>>>
>>>Okay, okay!  You've broken me down, you've forced it out of me.  GT is
>>>printed on recycled toilet paper, in sheeps blood, by migrant workers,
>>>in sweat shops, with stolen ideas, from unpaid writers, utterly devoid
>>>of any value, and possibly hazardous to your health.  I only buy it
>>>because the Illuminati take the money from my checking account and
>>>force me to stay quiet by threatening to discontinue my childrens'
>>>health benefits.  Besides, I'm an addict and can help myself.
>>>
>>>But other than that, it's pretty decent.  You will like it (or else).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>==
>>>------------------------><>------------------------
>>>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>>>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader
>>>
>>>                      ICQ 31012781
>>>_________________________________________________________
>>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:32:40 +0000
>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
>
>At 01:51 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>I want
>>>>to know what sucks about it!
>>>
>>>It's utterly awful.
>>>
>>>In fact, all of Traveller is a cess-pit of despair and pathos.  We are
>>>trapped, but there is still hope for you!  Run, before you become as we
>>are!!!
>>>
>>>Save yourself, Clif!
>>>--
>>>
>>>Doug Berry
>>
>>
>>C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
>>is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...
>>
>>--Clif
>>
>>
>
>Clif, I am a CT player from way back and a GURPS player sence the boxed set
>so perhaps I can help.
>
>If you mean how it compared the CT.
>
>Good things about Gurps.
>
>Characters do not die in creation.
>Charaters all all about equal.
>Rules have more depth.
>More suport products.
>Charaters develope in a reasonable way in a reasonable time period.
>Realistic combat.
>Players get their points by playing their character.
>
>Bad.
>
>Charaters all all about equal.
>Charaters effectiveness often depend on the player ability to tweek them.
>Rules are more complecated.
>Having to buy the support products.
>Characters can become so powerfull as to upset the game. (GM shood take
care.)
>Deadly combat.
>Point pandering by overplaying obnoctious disadvantaves. (GM can fix this.)
>
>Anything else you'd like to know?  I sorry if this it not what exactly what
>you asked for but I thought a comparision would be helpful.  I like both but
>generally prefer GT because of the greater support products and that
>characters can grow in a controled and meaningfull way.  
>
>If you want a 'sucks' problem then it would be how gurps deals with very
>high skill levels (25+) and that it is difficult to balence high damage
>weapons and character suvivability in a realistic campain.  Most who play
>GURPS learn quickly that combat can and does kill the careless and
unprepared.
>
>Charles L.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #184
>**********************************
>
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>
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>
>

------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 186



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement
Re: GURPS Traveller
GURPS Traveller problems
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: Starship Deck Orientations
The Fifth Element
Re: Deckplan Orientation
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Web Idea
Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Starships
Re: Starship aesthetics
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Above the Law Level (long)
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:03:42 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

In a message dated 2/23/99 1:56:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:

<< 
 C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
 is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...
 
 --Clif >>

	I don't like the character generation system.  For me, without the random
career system it just ain't really Traveller.  The library data is well
done--but if you've been playing raveller awhile, it's old news.    If you're
not going to use the GURPS rules, then the second half of the book is useless
to you.  (But I repeat, Star mercs is awesome, even if you're not using GURPS
rules).

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:14:11 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Perhaps you would have gotten more usable responces if you would have
>phrased your question more diplomaticly like, "What are the weaknesses in
>the Gurps system?"
>
>When you ask for 'what sucks' you put people in a negative frame of mind
and
>make them defensive and warry.

Defensive of ...?  Me?  I was the one who ASKED! And since when is
"trolling" my style?  If I ask to know "what sucks" I want to know what
sucks and I WANT them to be in a negative frame of mind so that they can
remember what is negative in their minds about the system.  *Woi!*

>  One of the secrets to successfull
>interogation is to develope a positive or 'yes' attitude in the person you
>are questioning or as the old saying goes, 'you catch more flies with honey
>than with veneger.'  People generally preffer to be conversed with instead
>of cross examined.

I'm not cross-examining them.  I was asking for sincere opinions (hopefully
followed by support).  You people act like the Mafia owns GURPS or
something.  What are you afraid of?  Don't let your freedom of speech slip
away so easily...
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:54:19 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

In a message dated 2/23/99 11:37:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
 layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
  >>
Mainly to enable us to print the text in smaller segments.  My printer is more
reliable if  I print only a few pages at a time.   prinitng a large 40 page
document takes a long time and if a mistake occurs, I have to reprint the
whole thing.  I'm new to PDF, can you print it in sections,  I haven't dared
just push the print buttom and wait.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:46:49 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: [Debate] Rules of Engagement

On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:27:12 -0500, Black ICE
<wombat@premier.net> wrote:

>One question:  Are the participants expected to play the personae of
>_canonical_ movers-and-shakers circa 1120, or are participants free to
>speak with the voices of the powerful in their campaigns (assuming that
>said campaigns are set in the 3I circa 1120)?

Well, I'm not sure there's necessarily a distinction, as there
will be many movers-and-shakers that have never actually been
mentioned in canonical material.  Consider: there are probably
about a dozen megacorporations, nearly the same number of
domains, plus prominent people like Imperially-syndicated
journalists, respected military leaders, prominent sector dukes
of prominent sectors, Imperially-respected academics from
Imperially-famous institutions, and so on.  If your campaign's
m&s are in a position to read "The Journal of Imperial Governance
and Policy Debate", or whatever it would actually be called,
there's no reason that they wouldn't be able to participate.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:49:34 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

  Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:36:28 -0500
  From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
  Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

  >Maybe the problem is your approach. You convey this bombastic personality
  >online, which I'm sure you're quite proud of, and some people don't react
  >well to that. If you really want an answer to your question, maybe you
  >should try to rephrase it in a more articulate manner.

  I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist non-answers
  which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so the
  "nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!

What _I_ saw was you getting testy before anyone else (like people who
read digests less frequently) got a chance to reply.  Count your
"bunch" of answers, disregarding those which are replies to your
followup posts, and you'll see what I mean.

By the time I had, your own statements had persuaded me not to.

	- Robert Ringrose

ObTrav:
My problems with GURPS Traveller are that it (a) uses an alternate
timeline (b) uses GURPS.


Many of these gripes aren't unique to GURPS.
Many of these gripes can't really be addressed.
But here are some of them.


It's too easy to min/max -- power goes to the person who made their
character better.  And somehow, that's never me. :>

It takes ages to generate a character (or fleshed-out NPC) without
computer support.

Some GURPS things are not as balanced as I would want (were I to run
GURPS, there would be no editic memory, for example).  The importance
of different skills varies between genres and even games -- a generic
system won't reflect that in prices.

The usefulness of the stats isn't in proportion to their cost.  Would
you rather have strength or dex in a modern game?  Which costs more?
Similarly, GURPS skills are related as "hard" "easy" etc., and cost
appropriately.  I'd rather see them cost according to their in-game
_usefulness_, whatever that may be.

Then there's the gripe I have with point/skill systems in general:
Everybody ends up with a little of all the important skills.  The
medic (for example) isn't special, because everybody has a _little_
medicine.

Combined
with a "you can get improvement in the skills you use" (and I'll admit
that I don't know GURPS will enough to know if they advocate this
approach) you end up with the following unrealistic situation I've
encountered in RuneQuest:
Character gets hurt.
The entire party lines up to try and bandage him, lowest skill first.
After all, if the high-skill medic does it, he's likely to succeed and
nobody will get to try.


With fewer slightly more quantized skills, you get around the
"everybody has a little of everything" somewhat.  And Traveler's
character generation means you don't get complete skill choice, so you
cannot (at least initially) have a little of all the important
skills.  And a good ref can go a long way to solving these problems.
But GURPS, by itself, does not.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:52:38 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller problems

Problems with GURPS Traveller:

1.	It's not metric.
2.	Combat is deadly; combat is bad.  Remember that scene in 
	Twilight's Peak where the fire from the Zhodani is supposed
	to drive you into the Ancient base?  Well, you're either
	afraid or dead in GURPS.
3.	Apparent lack of research on the part of the GURPS Traveller
	authors.  Either that, or my Supplement 3 and Spinward Marches
	Campaign books are different from others.
4.	Apparent acceptance of Leviathan.  I've only heard the phrase
	"Outrim Void" from British Traveller fans and Leviathan.
	At least they edited out the jump torpedoes.
5.	Lack of research into canon guidelines for the starship design
	system.  Don't expect the strategies and tactics published
	for starships in the various editions of Traveller to apply
	at all.  X-ray lasers, bomb-pumped lasers, et al.

DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:00:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
 prinitng a large 40 page
> document takes a long time and if a mistake occurs, I have to reprint the
> whole thing.  I'm new to PDF, can you print it in sections,  I haven't dared
> just push the print buttom and wait.

Under Mac or Windows (dunno about Un*x, but I'll bet it's there, too)
the priunter driver handles printing a few pages at a time...it's one of
the options in the Print> dialog.

This is behavior that's part of the OS, not the Acrobat app.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:25:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship Deck Orientations

Regarding the arguments about whether tall, thin structures are more
susceptible to toppling:

If you put bricks in the bottom of a tall thin box, it won't topple.  But
is a ship really comparable to this?  Let's say you have a ship that's
10x1x1 in terms of dimensions (basically a long needle).  Let's say the
ship is TL 15 and has J6 M6 P6 under High Guard.  That's 7+17+6% of the
ship that's drives, or 30%.  Let's say this all has a density of about 3
tons/m^3 and that the rest of the ship has a density of 1 ton/m^3.  That
means that in a ship that's 1000 m^3, where all drives are at one end,
you've got 900 tons in the lower 30% and 700 tons in the upper 70%.  Yes,
it's bottom-heavy, but it's not exactly a box with bricks in the bottom. 

Another thing to consider is that a tall thin structure is going to
provide more leverage with which to knock it down.  That is, forces acting
at the top (say enemy weapons fire or wind) are going to have an easier
time toppling the ship.

Finally, regarding the foundations of buildings, they are there to prevent
the building from sinking into the ground.  But a stronger foundation is
necessary because there's more pressure per unit of base if you make the
building tall and thin as opposed to short and fat. 

Basically, all other things being equal, I don't think one can argue that
a tall thin structure is not more vulnerable to toppling.  Now, I'm NOT
saying that you can't build stable tall thin structures of course.  It is,
however, more difficult to do.  Thus, it would be more difficult to design
a stable tall thin spaceship than a stable short fat one.

Charles C.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:32:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: The Fifth Element

Okay, first of all I can't personally understand how anyone could consider
"Silent Running" to be visionary (wasn't that actor on Walker: Texas
Ranger recently? :-).  Also, I have to say that loved Fifth Element.  It
is one of my favorite movies of all time.  

Someone said it wasn't original.  I have no quarrel about this.  It was
about as original as Star Wars.  But like Star Wars, it PERFECTLY captured
a certain genre of SF.  That's why it's great (I won't use "visionary" 
cuz I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean).  I believe the reason it
didn't do well in the US was that it's a genre not too many people there
are exposed to (except Heavy Metal readers, natch).  The genre is seen in
a great many european SF comics, and it's hard to describe.  Basically a
"crowded" and riotous looking form of space opera.  Very cool stuff.

Charles C.


- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:36:31 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:45 -0800, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> >Subject: Re: Deckplan Orientation
> ...
> >	The purpose of foundations is to provide a level, solid ... er ...
> ...
> >force. In fact, I recall seeing articles which showed buildings
> >resting on *rollers* on top of the foundation.
> 
>   IIRC, at least one of those is here in Vancouver (earthquake zone; at
> least our Big One might get Redmond as well)

Always looking on the bright side.  Are you sure your last name isn't
"Jobs"?



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:35:36 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
>         Well, a light second detection in vaccum to 10000km in atmosphere is
> pretty easy to accept.  In point of fact, in at least one instance, I have
> had my players turn on the FCS *while on the ground* and used it to simply
> incinerate an on-rushing TL3 horde.  Can you say "Rad-Haz"?  =)
> 
That's amazingly twisted!  ~filing away idea for future use....~

Or, to put into children's song version:

  All around the AEMS
  The Monkey chased the Weasel
  Then the Gunner turned it on
  POP! Goes the Weasel!

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:46:15 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Web Idea

Dear Folks -

Clif wrote:
>I was thinking of an idea where a website would be a Traveller world or
>system and have graphics, sounds, stats of leaders, vehicles, culture,
>starport, etc.  It could be PBEM or just a source of information.

A couple of Trav web sites have already gone for this layout. I'm even
thinking of modifying my site so that it is based on Tavonni - I'm still
playing with the format to try and work this out. The biggest problem is
splitting the real-life sections from the fictional role-playing sections,
so that it is obvious which is which.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:43:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

> save the crew...This is also the reason that the Merkavas have the famous
> "APC" capability. She has rear crew access doors for re-ammo-ing under fire.
> This is MUCH better than passing rounds down through the TC or loaders'
hatch.

If you're restocking ammo while under fire, something is very wrong.  One,
anyone with a brain is gonna rake machine gun fire over the ammo truck (can
you say boom?).  Two, that means you're almost out of ammo.. I don't remember
the Merkavas capacity off hand, but the M1A1 holds 40 main gun rounds (34 in
the turret: 18 ready, 16 standby).   Burning through more than 18 rounds (and
if the job is being done right, 18 targets) means there's a whole lot of 'bad
guys' out there.  Especially cause we go with the leader-wingman concept (and
platoons of 2 elements are the smallest flexed unit by SOP, though necessity
might dictate otherwise), means you have *at least* 36 rounds if not double or
6 times (a full company) that.  With a full reload and 4 from each tank in the
hull.

Loading through the loaders hatch isn't that bad.  Just have to have the free
bodies.  That's what loaders and drivers are for when we're not moving.  :-)

> Somebody figured out that if you offload 80-90% of the main gun ammo, you
can
> squeeze four troopers into the ammo compartment. This isn't a pleasant
> experience, but being uncomfortable is better than being dead, and the
> Israelis do this when the M-113's are too vunerable. Needless to say, the
> tankers are not thrilled to offload ammo...Run and Gun would work all right,
> but I'd HATE to have to assault them in prepared hull down positions. This
is
> what the Merkava was designed for; set piece British style defenses in the

A good gunner (like say, yours truly) :-)  can hit a turret just as well as a
full tank. lol. Speed is essential in that sort of thing (what I meant by Run
and Gun: firing on the move; *not* ahem... going away... from the enemey) :-)
Having Air soften them up or (and tell us where they're at or even kill em)
never hurts, though. 

> Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
> Imperial grav tanks?

The Trepidas were described in Challenge and RCVG.  Basically the 74 Mj fusion
gun of the Mk I model was upgraded to a 125 Mj "Mk II", but at the cost of
ammo capacity and ROF.  This lead to a further redesign to the Mk IIb for less
fuel and more ammo (to bring ammo capacity in line with fuel endurance).  Post
Collapse, the Regency completes the Mk III version (renamed the "Norris Battle
Tank") with a 175Mj fusion gun and a VRF gauss gun coax (which the previous
models lack).

There was debate in the Imperium about a "Lancer" all purpose vehicle that
held the a 125 Mj RF fusion gun, twice the armor of a Trepida and could hold
24 troops.  The design wasn't given, but i'd probably put the sucker at 20dt
to match the TL-15 heavy grav tank, which would mean the 10dt logistics for
the Trepida/Astrin to go bye-bye.  Besides, all of the TL-15 APCs are 12dt
(including all of the Marine vehicles).  

Hmm... Maybe I'll design a prototype company or so to be used by Solee against
the Coalition.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:43:36 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> If you're referring to the BMP-3, it has a 100mm gun-launcher, capable
> of firing either a conventional round or an ATGM.  Since no FSU 100mm
> round can penetrate the front armor of an M1-series tank, I would expect
> the ATGM to be similarly futile against the front of an M1.  (BTW, no

Not that i'm gonna ignore the damn thing if I can help it. ;-)   Seriously,
rounds (especially KE) are getting to the point where *no* armor can stop them
and we train like that.  First shot, one shot, one kill has been consistent
from MTC (training co) Knox to the FMF.

> current FSU/Russian tank carries a 120mm gun.  T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90/T-90+
> tanks carry a 125mm smoothbore gun, which is much less effective than
> the 120mm Rheinmetall gun carried by the M1A1/M1A2, the Leopard 2, and
> (IIRC) the LeClerc, or the 120mm rifled gun on the Challenger series of
> British tanks.

True except for the LeClerc, and I can't remember w/ the Challengers (I or
II).  The froggies put their own gun on the LeClerc.  It's 120mm smoothbore,
but they don't use a bore evacuator (the bulge in the gun tube if you don't
know) as one very significant difference (they use CO2 or something IIRC).  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:43:33 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starships

> > I would have thought a robot with an expert system in "battle damage
> > repair" would be able to cope pretty well without being sentient. With a
> > full database of previous battle damage incidents and best practice
> > repair techniques it should be quicker and better adapted than a human.
> 
> The problem is that expert systems are only as good as the data. The
> problem isn't the expert system. It's the sensor system that lets the
> robot *identify* the damage.

Course you could have it go down a checklist.  For a robot brain, w/ an
electrical/digital/dynamic kind of link up, it could probably go pretty
quickly.  Not how a human could do it, but I do get your drift.  :-)

Once you hit "autonomous" logic systems (and up), things shouldn't be quite as
limiting as a nomal dumb-bot is looking at.  That's TL12.  It means the robot
may be able to "figure out what you meant.  It can analyze data and arrive at
some very simple obvious conclusions."  -Book 8: Robots, pg 35.     High auto
at TL13 allows more inferences and instructions can be very vague.  Needless
to say, TL17 brings true AI, which means "it can exhibit truecreativity and
unporgrammed inspiration apparently through reasoning."   Wanna talk bout
Virus?  lol.  Nevermind...  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:43:31 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship aesthetics

> 3.The Aslan ships tend to be very blended, rounded shapes, with intricate
> characters engraved or painted on the ships.  Their lanthanum grids tend to
> be shaped in these characters as well.

Careful bout that durned "uncanonical grid." :-)

> 4.Hivers.  IIRC they tend to be borg cube style, i.e. plain boxes.

At least as portrayed in the Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide.  When I
did up some capital ships, I did them as cylinders.

> I tend to like the swoopy, airframed style of ships (witness my Acipiter
> Class and it's siblings), at least for PC groups.  In an emergency you can
> attempt a dead stick landing with them ala the Darrians.  Also useful if
> you're in atmosphere and the bad guys destroy your manuever and cg drives,
> which I've done to players before >:)
> 
> For the bulk freight carriers, I've always aesthetically liked the cargo
> pods on a spine look.  The modular concept of the cargo pods makes sense to
> me for rapid ship turnaround.  No cargo hold to worry about, just lock the
> containers onto the grapples, fuel up, and go.

How bout a Reformation Coalition Aurora class clipper?  I'd absolutely *love*
you (and I'm not that kind of guy. lol) if you would do up one of them.   Has
the modular "pod" concept *and* is a warship.  The front of BL always makes me
wish there was a toy of the thing. :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:43:28 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

> Well yes, but the Soviet/Russian/Eastern block forces are big on
> combined arms too - indeed, there has been a lot of cross pollination
> between the US and Russian doctrines. A BMP-3 does draw attention (not a
> good think); but to be perfectly honest I'd take a T-90 and BMP-3
> combined arms force over a same size, same training force in M1A2s and
> M2s. The T-90 is just scary; and the BMP-3 has more options available to
> it than the Bradley while fixing a number of the problems with the
> earlier models.

The T-90 is another piece of trash, though they're finally going in the right
direction.  As an aside, they'll probably never be able to produce enough of
them to be any kind of threat (not that I consider a T-90 te be really much
better than a T-80).  The Ukranian T-84 is much better than the T-90 IMO.  

IMO, the BMP-3 is going on the other extreme from the M113.  The M2 is a nice,
happy medium, though I don't respect the "IFV" concept much.  YMMV.

> Anyway, I thought that HEAT was the favoured round for not-tanks.
> Certainly our lot use HESH.

It is or rather was.  We're phasing in the MPAT round.  It has an air switch
to be used against helo's and air targets, though really if we ever have to
*really* be concerned bout them means something is VERY wrong.  lol.    Think
super-shotgun.  It's a bigger & heavier round, but quite impressive.  But
first u use what's in the pipe.
 :-)   And have the loader put the appropriate round next.  I think a sabot
round would work pretty decent against a BMP-3.

> >A BMP-3 is a tad higher on the threat list than the others.
> >Speaking as a tanker (and a gunner at that), this will get them killed a
whole
> >lot more.  :-)  
> 
> If you're busy with heavy armour, the supporting fire from a BMP-3 is
> more of a problem then from a -2.

Won't be busy long, even w/ T-80s or T-90s, much less T-62s or T-72s.  :-)
If they had heavy armor around, our tank units would be dueling them.  I was
referring to the MBTs attached to an army armored cavalry troop (2 platoons,
though given the current levels, it might be one or even an "element" of 2
tanks).  IIRC, Warsaw Pact units didn't operate *that* way, though the current
training focus isn't on the Russians anymore, but rather petty and lower tech
types like Iraqis and North Koreans.

> >Now, for the US Marines, we have it the other way around.  The tanks are
> >support for the infantry.   For whoever u where who was saying how fun it
is
> >to ride in an AAV... it's NOT!  lol.  I much prefer being in the Abrams for
> >the amphibious landing and that isn't (much) fun either (especially
after!).
> 
> Erm, I suggested that riding the LTVP-7 wasn't a laugh.

Same thing.   Like saying MBT instead of M1A1.

> >Ob Trav.  The Imperial Army and Imperial Marines are likely the same way as
> >the US on this doctrine, except the Imperial Marines are primarily space
> >(heavy infantry/jump troops) rather than amphibious w/ grav tanks, APCs,
> >ortillery, etc as support.  See the TO&E of the Imperial Marine MArCav
> > regiment.  :-)  Imperial Army?  Trepidas and Astrins substituted for
Abrams
> >and Bradleys, though TL-15 Heavy Grav Tanks for higher TL worlds, and you
> >should have the gist of it.  Regency Combat Vehicle Guide is invaluable for
> >this discussion. : )
> 
> I see the Imperial Marines as a lot closer to the Marines in the days of
> sail (shipboard security, boarding actions, limited landings) than
> modern amphibious troops.

They certainly do that role, but one major tactic in canon would be contrary:
the meteoric assault.   Ships troops duties do come from the Imperial Marines,
but jump troops have a very important role in Traveller planetary combat.
First wave comes in by Jump.  These are probably almost always spearheaded by
Imperial Marines w/ certain high caliber Imperial Army units next.  Then the
bulk of the Imperial Army by troop transports, etc. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:27:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level (long)

Dear Folks -

Doug wrote:
>You are comparing apples and oranges, and trying to compare a cultural
>decision with a mechanical one.  *If* the world recognizes social rank as
a
>mitigating factor, the system provided works well.  It falls apart on any
>world that doesn't fall in line with the European concept of nobility.

I have to disagree with you slightly on this one, Doug. The way the
Imperium is described, I believe that Imperial ranks _have_ to be respected
by the locals. You might get a situation where the locals arrest a noble
and won't allow them to contact off-planet Imperial authorities, but the
locals would be in trouble if the noble ever escaped. Part of being a
member planet of the Imperium, I believe, is respecting and acknowledging
the Imperial rank structure.

From "Government, Imperial" in the Library Data:

"Generally, decisions affecting one area of the Imperium are settled by the
 nobility in
that area. The nobility is allowed this power primarily due to the
communications lag
which exists when trying to control such a vast area as the Imperium;
requests and
orders take too long to reach higher authorities and return."

"Nobles are regulated through standard codes of behaviour known as
protocols. Protocols
aside, nobles have few obligations in terms of provision for one another,
notwithstanding
the payment of taxes, attendance of summits, and settlement of disputes
that fall within
each other's jurisdictions. Members of the nobility are largely autonomous
and have few
restrictions on their activities, especially if they are in a backwater."

[snip bit about the peerage & Moot]

"The Imperial bureacracy lies under the nobility in terms of official
power. It is made up
of a number of "ministries". Each ministry has offices in each subsector of
 the
Imperium. This lessens the likelihood of sector-wide power bases forming,
and provides
more opportunities for patronage."

Now, although most of this refers to the power that an individual noble is
able to throw around while within their respective (Imperial) arena, surely
this must also mean that local authorities MUST show a certain amount of
deference to _Imperial_ nobles?

You said:
>You miss the point.  Novo Leningrad doesn't recognize Henrich's patent of
>nobility as anything more than a confession of being an exploiter of the
>masses.

However, even in Soviet Russia, the authorities treated visiting
dignitaries with the same respect as members of the Politbureau (sp?). In
effect, they are granted an honourary Social Status under their system -
that is, one that commands respect, but not necessarily obedience. You can
certainly rule that some privileges (such as the right to bear arms) are
NOT allowed on a particular world. Freedom of movement, for example, was
restricted in the USSR - also China and Japan last century. Perhaps a
better rule might be to allow a noble to "negotiate" (Liaison or Diplomacy,
Your Trav Rules May Vary ;-) what they are allowed to get away with. For
example, they may be able to carry arms from two levels below the local Law
level with some dice-throwing "discussion" - modified by good role-playing,
of course!!.

Anyway, I really appreciate the discussion and rules suggestion that this
thread has generated. While I agree that you should put the time in to
detail a world's attitude to law, you also need to pin down some rules or
guidelines about it. The rules suggestions proffered so far both allow
off-the-cuff decisions and provide pointers when creating detailed rules
for one system. Thank you all.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:38:47 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 05:35 PM 23/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> 
>>         Well, a light second detection in vaccum to 10000km in atmosphere is
>> pretty easy to accept.  In point of fact, in at least one instance, I have
>> had my players turn on the FCS *while on the ground* and used it to simply
>> incinerate an on-rushing TL3 horde.  Can you say "Rad-Haz"?  =)
>> 
>That's amazingly twisted!  ~filing away idea for future use....~

       Why thank-you!  =)
        You should have seen the *rest* of the adventure...  it went from
"Gilligan's Isalnd" with a 2200dton Merc Cruiser to "Scenes from the
Siberian Front, WWII" over the span of about 10 sessions...  
        ",,,All we wanted was some *WATER* dammit!"  --Captain Lorenzo Vallerei

>Or, to put into children's song version:
>
>  All around the AEMS
>  The Monkey chased the Weasel
>  Then the Gunner turned it on
>  POP! Goes the Weasel!
>
        I *like* it!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #186
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 187



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
re: starships
Re: Deckplans
Printing PDF (was: Intellectual Property)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: tanks
Re: Andre Norton
re: tanks
Re: Printing PDF (was: Intellectual Property)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing
Re: Solar Flares
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:38:47 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 01:23 PM 23/02/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>>Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
>...
>>        I understand that Striker indicates that a beam laser is about the
>>hitting power of a 100mm CPR gun, and that may seem more sane.  However, I
>>am not sure if that is reasonable for a ship-killing weapon power, either.
>>Way too low, I think.
>
>  Closer to "way beyond huge naval gun firepower" - a 100mm at TL 8 is
>probably Penetration ~45, tops, while the laser may be around Pen 90 or
>so. Every 8 is a doubling, so the CPR/MD is down by about 98%?
>
>        Steven Hudson

        Hi, Steve...  I really can't answer to that, as I have never worried
about the PEN numbers...  My players have never gotten into a brawl with
anything bigger than an Auto-LAG or a mini-gun....  they just take cover
when somebody with vehicle support shows up =)

        --Michel 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:33:59 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller

>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:12:28 -0800 (PST)
>From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

After that spam I vote we take the Imperial Navy and occupy the rest of the
Sword Worlds. If they resist, nuke em from orbit to be sure.

Or we could use mass drivers? <snip Londo/Reifer conversation>

Dom

PS I think I understand why but it was kind of repetitive - at least the
other party varied their request....

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:44:49 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>No, you misunderstand.  For the same reason people like html for its
>accessibility and ability to be manipulated, so that they can take info
>and
>paste into a research paper and THEN document the source, players would
>like
>to be able to take a "webbook" (.html webbooks exist) 's text and copy and
>paste it somewhere else.  

Oddly enough, I've never been that thrilled with HTML. Especially the
cutting and pasting part. If only there was a way of encapsulating the
source forcut-&-pasted information... (Every semester I have to spend
hours tracking down copied material, so that when the kid & parents
threaten lawyers I can show them that I have proof that the essay was
plagarized. Gets real tricky when kids fail their final year because of
cheating...)


>For example, maybe I'm running a PBEM and want to
>copy just SOME of a bunch of vehicles' stats from multiple sources to
>make a
>"used car lot" for my campaign. Well, I can't do that with your book (or
>any
>regular book).  
[snip]
>  Maybe I don't want the players to know all of the stats.
>Well, then I have to do like the old days and photocopy pages and cut and
>paste portions of stats onto a piece of paper and then photocopy that.

OK, now you've answered the question I originally asked. A good point.

>
>Starting to get the picture?  If your source can't be copy and pasted, it
>becomes like any other book, and IMO, copy and pasted is just like
>quoting,
>if you provide the references.

It is, if you do, _and_ if you have permission to do so. (Which I grant in
the book, by the way.)

>
>And what GM takes parenthetical time to comment, "I created this ship but
>I
>didn't create that one.  Rob Prior did that one"?  Players don't care.
>They're about to get blown out of orbit by a mysterious ship they've never
>seen before.

Oddly enough, I do. Not aloud during the game, but almost every one of my
documents includes proper attribution, when I know it. Player handouts,
especially for players who aren't personal friends, include all applicable
copyright notices. It's not much extra work, but it's the least I can do
for the hundreds of people who have contributed to my Traveller game over
the years.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:13:52 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Above the Law Level UTP Proposal

>>>
I have an OLD <<dating back to Stonehenge I tell ya!!>>issue of "White
Dwarf"
magazine (before they went exclusively "warhammer") that had a system
using
the Social Standing attribute.
>>>

White Dwarf 22 - Dec/Jan 80/81 - Robe and Blaster - by Rick D Stuart -
that I happen to have to hand (ain't that sad).

Can't find it on the HIWG CD. Maybe it's on Andy Slacks website (but
probably not) linked to from BITS.ORG.UK.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:31:21 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

>>>
If I have a turret and load three weapons on it, how many spaces
does it take up?  One or four?
>>>

One space inside the hull and two outside it. It is always three spaces
big. It just takes one space away from the hull.

Each weapon mount uses up one space of the turret. If you don't use all
three spaces then you can store cargo in the unused space.

A hull mount is really only useful on small craft that cannot mount a
turret. They save space, weight and cost. They take one space of hull
each.

Where did four come from?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:46:59 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: starships

>>>
<snippage of lots of good arguments for the problems with robots>
Until the robots hit a new situation. Then it's up to the humans.
<snip>
Neural nets have the *same* shortcomings as people, as well as the
disadvantage of not being able to easily be told "No! You've reached
the wrong conclusion!".
>>>

Thanks. I was considering writing a G:T scenario using
G:robots/computers.  This counter-argument has given me lots of ideas.

I guess we should treat non-sentient robots as talented but idealistic
and possibly stubborn children?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:37:11 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

>>>>>
I have a GT design for the Shivva I'd already done before the GT
Aliens book was published. Let me know if you want me to post it, I
think it's a better design than the one SJG did (though I'm biased, of
course) and is closer to the CT design. (It includes the 40 ton fuel
barge and 8 ton fighter (I called it the Shtelfire; did anybody else
read Scott (2G) Kellogg's Zhodani fiction?).
>>>>>

Post away.

<snip mixed ordnance turrets>
>Which isn't a problem to play with GT ship combat anyway...

BTW What is the general consensus on G:T ship combat system? (apologies
if covered before)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:50:43 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Printing PDF (was: Intellectual Property)

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>Mainly to enable us to print the text in smaller segments.  My printer is
>more
>reliable if  I print only a few pages at a time.   prinitng a large 40
>page
>document takes a long time and if a mistake occurs, I have to reprint the
>whole thing.  I'm new to PDF, can you print it in sections,  I haven't
>dared
>just push the print buttom and wait.

I just print a range (ie. pages 1-5, then print again for pages 6-10, and
so on). These settings are in the standard Print dialog on both the Mac
and Windows NT (that I know of).

That's how I had to print the SJG license agreement, because I didn't have
enough memory for the full document at once.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:48:56 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Problems with GURPS Traveller:
>
>1. It's not metric.

Easily solved with a calculator and your average dictionary, which usually
has conversion tables in it. GURPS is en established game system; they
shouldn't have to revise everything to conform to Traveller, especially when
it can be easily done by the user if desired. Myself, I don't care about
metric or English..it's a game unit. I adapt.

>2. Combat is deadly; combat is bad.  Remember that scene in
> Twilight's Peak where the fire from the Zhodani is supposed
> to drive you into the Ancient base?  Well, you're either
> afraid or dead in GURPS.

Realistic combat is good. It promotes more thinking and less shooting on the
part of the players. And there are ways to make it less deadly.

>3. Apparent lack of research on the part of the GURPS Traveller
> authors.  Either that, or my Supplement 3 and Spinward Marches
> Campaign books are different from others.


Trying to keep track of 20 years of stuff that your company didn't even
publish is not easy. That being said, I don't see any major errors that get
in the way, and besides..it's an ALTERNATE universe. I rationalize it by
saying that in this alternate timeline, some things happened a bit
differently.

4. Apparent acceptance of Leviathan.  I've only heard the phrase
> "Outrim Void" from British Traveller fans and Leviathan.
> At least they edited out the jump torpedoes.

Leviathan was published by GDW right? That makes it "canon" (I hate that
term). The problem here is the same that afflicts the other Canon..people
want to pick and choose what's "real canon" and what isn't.


>5. Lack of research into canon guidelines for the starship design
> system.  Don't expect the strategies and tactics published
> for starships in the various editions of Traveller to apply
> at all.  X-ray lasers, bomb-pumped lasers, et al.

it's a different system with different assumptions. You can't expect things
to work exactly the same. That being said, I think it does a good job of
modelling Traveller tech and ships except in those areas where consistency
with GURPS made more sense than what Traveller did. But it had to be done
with an existing system (GURPS Vehicles) so some things will change. Again,
it is an alternate universe.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:43:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: tanks

Dear Folks -

Gary wrote:
>There was debate in the Imperium about a "Lancer" all purpose vehicle that
>held the a 125 Mj RF fusion gun, twice the armor of a Trepida and could
hold
>24 troops.  The design wasn't given, but i'd probably put the sucker at
20dt
>to match the TL-15 heavy grav tank, which would mean the 10dt logistics
for
>the Trepida/Astrin to go bye-bye.  Besides, all of the TL-15 APCs are 12dt
>(including all of the Marine vehicles).

The Lancer was an MT design, fully detailed in DGP's 101 Vehicles. I could
try looking it up after work, if you like. Nasty stats for MT (AF 50 as
opposed to the Trapida's mere 40, for eg), but maybe just a high-value
target.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:17:49 -0500
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Andre Norton

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Hmm. *I* wasn't in print back then ;-)
> 
> Just a twinkle in my father's eye....
> 
> Dom
> 

PUPPY!!! ;*> 
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:29:59 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: re: tanks

Having been "only" on M60A3 (19E20)(Pattons the rest of the world)(aside
from the that g****n M85 .50 cal machinegun, the best tank the US has
ever fielded... (flame bait... ;')(oh, and kicking the as**s of Abrahms
tankers into next week on a reg basis in the early '80s in Europe), all
I can really say is that a full stop, hull down position will kill far
more enemy than any rolling tank. 
Especially if you back that up with any kind of combined arms situation.
Add infantry, artillery and air support and, _assuming training is equal_
I will take either m60's or T80's over M1's anyday.

OBTRAV; as was mentioned a while ago; what, really, is the doctrine
behind the Imp Army and Marines and those all too common Trepidas????
Airland battle is a good start, but we dont have Ortillery...   ;)

William

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:28:10 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Printing PDF (was: Intellectual Property)

In a message dated 2/23/99 7:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:

<< 
 I just print a range (ie. pages 1-5, then print again for pages 6-10, and
 so on). These settings are in the standard Print dialog on both the Mac
 and Windows NT (that I know of).
  >>
D'oh!,  should have thought of that.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:09:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 01:51 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
>is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...

It's not coming out fast enough.

They haven't asked for my full Imperial Army proposal yet.

I've yet to get Loren to hand deliver my books.  (Hey, I think I almost
support GDW single-handedly throughout the 80s.. I even bought _Cadilacs &
Dinosaurs_!)

There.  That is the sum total things I dislike about G:T.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:17:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 04:36 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist non-answers
>which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so the
>"nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!

No, you came out and asked us to list "what sucked" about GT.  That's
leading with a negative.  Did you even think of asking for reviews or
opinions?  Let me show you what a "nice" approach would have been:

"Anybody have reviews/comments about GURPS: Traveller?  I'm especially
interested in any problems you may have encountered and how you solved
them.  Thanks!"

You demand, belittle, and whine.  I'd also insult your taste in sf, but
from what I've read, you haven't read enough for you to have formed any taste.


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:23:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 04:39 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I know that opinions are subjective, but the supports for the opinions can
>be objective, if they can be demonstrated.

OK, lets say that I *hate* points based systems.  I just don't like them.
So, when you ask "what sucks" about G:T, I'm going to answer "character
generation is point-based.  it sucks."

Any question, especially one phrased as you phrased yours, on the merits of
an entire game will draw completely subjective opinions that can be argued
to death.  

Over in rec.games.frp.misc there are several flame wars going over the
merit/failings of AD&D.  Persoannaly, I'd be happy if I never got close to
a DnD game again.. ridiculous assumptions, horrid rules, etc, etc..

But for many people, AD&D is a great game, the things I despise are the
things they love.

You weren't around for the Great Task System War, when this list split
apart over the task system for T5.  Trust me, you can ask a question on
mechanics and get an entire list of complaints that someone else will jump
on.  Earlier in this thread, someone gave a list of problems with G:T.
Would it surprise you that I disagreed with much of that list?
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

"A Republican mayor of Chicago? 
The voters would turn over in 
their graves!" -Marty Helgesen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:30:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 05:14 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Defensive of ...?  Me?  I was the one who ASKED! And since when is
>"trolling" my style?  If I ask to know "what sucks" I want to know what
>sucks and I WANT them to be in a negative frame of mind so that they can
>remember what is negative in their minds about the system.  *Woi!*

Please.  I don't need your assitance to remember what I dislike about a
system.  Want complaints about Twilight:2000 1st edition?  They're still
fresh in my mind.

>I'm not cross-examining them.  I was asking for sincere opinions (hopefully
>followed by support).  You people act like the Mafia owns GURPS or
>something.  What are you afraid of?  Don't let your freedom of speech slip
>away so easily...

The Men in Black own GURPS.

This isn't a freedom of speech issue, this is a Clif being an annoyance
issue.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:35:54 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing

I have returned.  Expect the unexpected.  More importantly,
don't expect finished ideas from me.

I. WebSector

I read Clif's post with interest.  It would be cool indeed if
each Traveller page had a 'front' with a world from the Spinward
Marches, and on that page, jump-links to some of the closer
"neighboring" webPlanets.  Some obligatory basic info about
the world would be there, plus whatever comes into the owner's
head over time.  Of course, other Traveller content on the site
would be accessed via the world's Library Data, or the local
TAS hostel, or a network uplink (etc etc).

Who else wants to do this?  Let's pick a subsector in the Marches
- -- say, one of the center ones like Lunion, or (of course) Regina --
and see how far the "net" can spread.  One world per site,
whaddaya think?  Who wants to start?  Next person to agree gets
first pick!

Obligatory data:
   1. UWP line, copied straight from GAL or CORE or...
   2. list of nearby worlds;
       "owned" worlds link to the appropriate site.

Nice-to-have data:
   3. Star system fleshed out, perhaps in a table or list.
       A graphic map might be really nice!
   4. The system's history.  As brief or long as you want.
   5. People to meet there.
   6. Government officials and people you won't meet but
       will hear about.
   7. Job offers?  Etc...

This might be a really really cool way to get library data on
the worlds fleshed out big-time.  Needless to say, we may
have to be careful about copyright law.

E-Mail me if you have more ideas, and of course post
to this list!


II. GURPS

Though I haven't immersed myself in GURPS yet, I see one
obvious advantage to character generation -- the quirks and
disadvantages.  A great way to add depth to your character,
a way to codify his or her personality to some degree.  That's
a great advantage.

Another advantage I've heard of is that the combat system is
unified.  You know how much damage a meson spinal mount
does to an infantryman in battle dress (yes, we all know it
vaporizes him and the city he lives in, but it's much much more
convincing to the character's owner to be able to show the
hard numbers to him in a sourcebook).  And you know how
many hits a starship hull can take from a PGMP-13 before
it melts away.  Sorry, I like to have those numbers without
having to guess or calculate.  Shouldn't they be there?

III. Astrogation

Astrogation should be an active role, with room for role
playing.  For instance, the player should, based on his
astrogation skill, sift a number of routes from the computer's
myriad calculated routes, each with a probability of mishap, time
delays, and perhaps fuel efficiencies or time in jump.  More
rolls may improve or hurt route stats, and then the astrogator
decides on the "best" one for the moment.  Doesn't this
sound like it would increase the human involvement in
astrogation?  If one assumes that the jump calculations do
not point to quantitatively superior solutions, then human
interaction can be superior to automated astrogation systems.

This leads me to...

IV. Role Playing

Y'all have seen the pictures: two people have one line of
interaction; three people have three lines; four people have
six lines, and FIVE people have TEN lines... four terminals
from each person.  Now, map that to a free trader:

Captain/Pilot
Astrogator
Sensor Guy
Gunner
Engineer

During a battle, you have 10 interactions here: reasonably
chaotic, and great fun.  Remove the astrogator, and a
significant part of the fun is gone.  Merge in roles, split
out roles; we find that one absent position makes a big
difference in enjoyment.  In fact, six roles can get downright
messy; of course, it can still be great fun.

I wonder if this is why the ideal Traveller group is 1 ref and
4 to 5 players?


- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:44:39 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Flares

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
In mail you write:

>> Superdense is TL 12, Bonded Superdense is TL 14.  Before TL 12 radiation
>> shielding on starships essentially sucks. 

>So what are the shielding factors again? And do they vary with TL?

TL 12 Superdense:  1 cm = 43 cm of concrete or rock, 14 cm of steel, or
2.8 cm of lead

TL 14 bonded superdense:  1 cm = 100 cm of rock or concrete, 33 cm of
steel, or 6.7 cm of lead

This is from MT and there is no further variation by TL until
you get to TL 17 coherent superdense.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:29:00 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

- ----------
> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
> Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 1999 3:55 PM
> 
> "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> writes:
> >
> >What about Hull Mount?  It gets you nothing if the answer is one, 
> >except for less space (2 dTons less).  And fewer firing arcs (which 
> >isn't really a problem with the new combat system in GT).  
> 
> In _my_ Traveller universe, hull mount weapons can be fired by the pilot,
> and only the pilot, while turret-mount weapons require a gunner. Plus you
> don't need to pay for the turret. Your mileage may vary.

I add the possibility of locking a turret in a fixed orientation and
letting the pilot fire it like a hull-mounted weapon.  This is helpful if
you are short gunners.
 
> No, a bay has 50 internal spaces, and take up 50 internal spaces, so there
> is no net saving. (Ie. bays are internal, _not_ "honking big turrets".) 
> This is while I rule that bay weapons must be in a bay. 

This has been errata'd, hasn't it?  A 50-ton bay is supposed to take up 20
spaces (not 50).  

One other advantage of fixed-mount bays is that they don't add surface area
to the hull.  This could be handy in heavily armored designs.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:14:03 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ----------
> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
> Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 1999 8:13 AM
> 
> Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
> for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
> to know what sucks about it!

Welcome to the Internet.  Contrary to your expectation, I'm not here to
cater to your every whim.  I'm here for my own enjoyment.  

There are things I'm not fond of in G:T, and things that I have changed and
will change, but those are mostly style things.  I'd be hard pressed to
point to anything that "sucks." 

BTW: did the fact that I answered your other questions *and* gave you a
pointer to a place that would help you draw your own conclusions (i.e.
GURPS Lite) mean anything at all?  Apparently not.
 
Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:37:54 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ----------
> From: ringrose@ascent.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
> Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 1999 5:49 PM

> ObTrav:
> My problems with GURPS Traveller are that it (a) uses an alternate
> timeline (b) uses GURPS.
> 
> 
> Many of these gripes aren't unique to GURPS.
> Many of these gripes can't really be addressed.
> But here are some of them.
> 
> 
> It's too easy to min/max -- power goes to the person who made their
> character better.  And somehow, that's never me. :>

As opposed to power going to the 6-term veteran with 16+ skills, when you
failed a reenlistment roll after one term and have only two skills? :-)
(Hey, it's happened to me.)  Min-maxing is possible, but in my experience,
GURPS parties will be a lot more balanced than most CT parties.

Of course, I'm in it for the roleplaying; I don't generally care too much
about whether my character is "more powerful" than another character.  I
care whether I like playing him.  Mostly, that comes down to personality,
not power. 
 
One trick that may help make GURPS work for Traveller is using an optional
rule that is unfortunately not in the Basic book.  Give 45-50 extra points
but don't give points for Disadvantages and Quirks.  Have players pick only
the disadvantages they need to make the character "come alive."  this kills
one major source of min-maxing.

> It takes ages to generate a character (or fleshed-out NPC) without
> computer support.

This becomes much easier with experience and templates.  I can do a basic
character within about half an hour and the process forces you to produce a
personality to go with the stats.  That's about the same as rolling
extended chargen for a CT player and them piecing a background together out
of the various rolls.  The nice thing, IMHO, is that the system tends to
produce characters with more personality and plot "hooks" than the classic
system.  It all balances out.  However, I'll admit it does take practice;
I've been playing GURPS on and off for about a decade.  

 > Some GURPS things are not as balanced as I would want (were I to run
> GURPS, there would be no editic memory, for example).  The importance
> of different skills varies between genres and even games -- a generic
> system won't reflect that in prices.
> 
> The usefulness of the stats isn't in proportion to their cost.  Would
> you rather have strength or dex in a modern game?  Which costs more?
> Similarly, GURPS skills are related as "hard" "easy" etc., and cost
> appropriately.  I'd rather see them cost according to their in-game
> _usefulness_, whatever that may be.

This is a fairly common criticism, and one I can sympathize with.  Low ST
characters abound in high-tech campaigns because ST isn't worth the points,
even though modern weight training may make high ST relatively easy to come
by.  I'm not sure what to do about this.  Maybe halving the cost of ST and
HT might work?  
 
On the skills front, this has never struck me as a real problem.  Assigning
them costs based on usefulness would be even worse, IMHO.  Even within the
Traveller universe, the relative importance of different skills will vary
from campaign to campaign.  In a mercenary campaign, for example, combat
skills will be much more valuable than in a merchants and traders game.  I
don't see a viable way to adjust this without lots of work, so difficulty
is at least a consistent measure.

> Then there's the gripe I have with point/skill systems in general:
> Everybody ends up with a little of all the important skills.  The
> medic (for example) isn't special, because everybody has a _little_
> medicine.

FWIW, it seems realistic to me that people in dangerous professions, like
Travelling, will pick up  a smattering of emergency skills.  Compare with
the military, which instructs everyone in First Aid, basic survival, gun
training, etc.  To make specialists valuable, remember to assign negative
modifiers to skill attempts in difficult cases.  The half-point skill 11
wonder is in bad shape with a -4 on an attempt while a skill 16 specialist
is in much better shape.
 
> Combined
> with a "you can get improvement in the skills you use" (and I'll admit
> that I don't know GURPS will enough to know if they advocate this
> approach) you end up with the following unrealistic situation I've
> encountered in RuneQuest:
> Character gets hurt.
> The entire party lines up to try and bandage him, lowest skill first.
> After all, if the high-skill medic does it, he's likely to succeed and
> nobody will get to try.

They don't advocate this approach at all.  Points are awarded for a session
or adventure and are pooled; they can generally be used for anything the GM
approves.  The GM can always veto a point expenditure and has the option of
directing some points to skills used significantly in the game.  Note the
significantly, this sort of munchkin tactic can be easily vetoed. 

> With fewer slightly more quantized skills, you get around the
> "everybody has a little of everything" somewhat.  And Traveler's
> character generation means you don't get complete skill choice, so you
> cannot (at least initially) have a little of all the important
> skills.  And a good ref can go a long way to solving these problems.
> But GURPS, by itself, does not.

I think a good referee, along with some intellectual honesty form the
players, is critical to prevent any system from being abused.  GURPS may
demand a little more, but it offers more in return.  

The big thing GURPS offers is flexibility.  Frankly, it is a game for
people who like to tinker with the rules.  People look at the mass of rules
in GURPS and assume that you're supposed to use them all.  Not so; they're
all options, not mandates.   If you want details, you've got them.  If you
want a quick and dirty off-the-cuff adventure, skip most of them.  I'm
doing a very "space opera" version, with high adventure, lots of
"cinematic" touches, and less realism.  GURPS supports this much better
than CT, IMHO.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #187
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 188



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: T5 Questions
ChronoRaptor Deckplans
Re: GURPS Traveller (sorry for the multiple posts)
Re: Web Idea
Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: T5 Questions
Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!
Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller
Re : Solar Flares and protection
WebSector example
Re : Muscle Power (was return of SAYBOOM)- long
Re: GURPS Traveller problems
Re: Robots (was re: Starships)
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Out-of-Character comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:51:28 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

- ----------
> From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
> Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 1999 4:36 PM

> I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist non-answers
> which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so the
> "nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!

No, you didn't.  You started with a fairly rude phrase "what sucks?" is not
polite discourse where I come from.  Then you decided that, because you
didn't get answers that precisely suited your rather nebulous demand, you
would insult the people who responded politely and in good faith.

You want to know why relatively few people have really  harsh things to say
about GURPS.  I think it's because it's a pretty good system.  That's why
it's lasted going on 15 years, which is an amazingly long run for an RPG
system.

I've lurked here a while and seem people complain about you.  I was
inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, you have
today confirmed many of the worst things people have said about you and
earned a permanent place in my kill filters.  You need to grow up a bit and
learn to accept that what you want may not be what other people want to
give you.  That's life.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:40:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 01:54 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>You must have gotten that from the shooting people at will (and kinda "at
>your leisure") that comes with sniping, Doug.

at will, and at my leisure.  Riiggghhtt...

>
>You're a Leonardo DaVinci of the Traveller community.

Damn!  I was aiming to be the Leonardo DiCaprio of the traveller community.

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:53:25 -0800
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: ChronoRaptor Deckplans

Cheezy ship deckplans of the week:

The 200 Ton ChronoRaptor class Yacht / Transport.

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/downloads/YT-1300.gif
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/CC2.html

Comments / Flames welcome.
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:58:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller (sorry for the multiple posts)

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
> Okay, I've got 3 copies of this message.  You MIGHT want to call up
your ISP? <<

Sorry folks, Yahoo Mail had a bad one this afternoon and I
machinegunned multiple messages all over the place.  Seems to be okay,
now.  I did a test before I tried posting again :-)



==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:00:55 +0000
From: "Tim" <tim@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Web Idea

Cliff Said
> 
> I was thinking of an idea where a website would be a Traveller world or
> system and have graphics, sounds, stats of leaders, vehicles, culture,
> starport, etc.  It could be PBEM or just a source of information.
> 
> A hotlink would be a jump to another website for another world.  Links would
> be provided to all worlds within Jump ___ on one page, within Jump ___ on
> another page, etc.
> 
> This would allow TRUE role-playing (though by email) and some use of the
> computer and the web to speed things up.  Why describe what you can depict?
> 
> Then, whenever I wanted to play a solo adventure, I could take a passage to
> another webworld and meet the NPC's and PC's (who happen to be there at the
> time) on that world, accomplish some things, and then jump to the next
> world...
> 
> I think it would require work on our parts, but it would allow one world to
> be developed in detail by one person.  The results would be varied.  The
> responsibility for "dying" sites could be assumed by neighboring worlds.
> 
> --Clif
> 

I have tried this in the past and it takes a huge amount of time to 
do right.  I have also found that there is little interest in dynamic 
sities.  It may be a novality when first encountered but soon like 
all internet sites people stop coming to the sites.  This may be my 
pessimistic side but those who know about my efforts with the ISBA 
site and mailing list know how hard that really was.  
	But hey if you are interested in furthering the idea I ll give what 
every advice and help I can.  I still think the internet is a great 
tool for roleplaying and offers chances for gammers and GMs alike 
who want to interact with others outside their locale 
community of gammers.  They can also provide vast amounts of 
background infromation that can be absorbed into any game.  But
I have seen few (including my own) sites that do this right for 
any game. Dont give up hope though Cliff and I wont. Besides I am an 
optimsit by nature


Tim Reynolds
tim@premier.net 
www.premier.net/~tim 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable 
sexual disease.  It made you unsuitable for 
a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.]

Terry Pratchett 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:24:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> After that spam I vote we take the Imperial Navy and occupy the rest
of the Sword Worlds. If they resist, nuke em from orbit to be sure.
> 
> Or we could use mass drivers? <snip Londo/Reifer conversation>
> 
> Dom
> 
> PS I think I understand why but it was kind of repetitive - at least
the other party varied their request....


Again, I apologize.  Yahoo Mail faulted out when I tried to send the
reply message, so I used my e-mail to send it.  Next thing I know a
gazzillion posts are showing up.  I was affraid to try any more posts,
so I just logged off and went to do something else.  I was an
accident.  Kind of like that bouncing problem that we had a few months
ago.  And of course it had to happen with an annoying post. <sigh> 



==
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          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:27:37 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

Doug said:

>Damn!  I was aiming to be the Leonardo DiCaprio of the traveller community.


Sorry Doug, there's not enough interest among young teenaged girls in
Traveller.  :^(

Perhaps a Traveller movie with D-Leo (I learned from my local newspaper
that's the nickname that his buddies use for him) could generate such
interest...

I can see it now: Leonardo as a young ne'er-do-well rogueish character. He
meets a young, busty redheaded noble girl on a subsidized liner... they fall
in love. In the process she scorns the man she was meant to marry, a dashing
noble... then the liner hits a huge comet and many perish as a result of too
few survival bubbles.

Cameron could direct it, it could combine the sensibilities of both Aliens
and Titanic. Of course, we'd have to hire Celine Dion to do the theme
song...

It would be an instant hit.

"Comet, right ahead!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:26:50 CST
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!

I forgot this one:

I play HERO system.  I don't do GURPS, if in fact GURPS is something
you do, as opposed to something you should clean up after you do.
(that's bigtime flamebait, and a joke).

Anyone notice the parallels between the GURPS Traveller defenders and
the TNE defenders?
(that's even more flamebait)

Seriously, for a moment, some of us did point-based systems for MT and
CT.  Point based is NOTHING new.  Point based is good.  Point-based is
one thing T5 SHOULD be.


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist           dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:37:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller

- ---Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was an accident. <

So was that! <ROTFL>











==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:35:11 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Solar Flares and protection

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> So what are the shielding factors again? And do they vary with TL?
> 

[From an article of mine based on one from the Traveller's Digest]:-
Shielding 
Efficacy depends on the material and its thickness.
Alpha particles travel 5-7cm in air, betas 2-8m. 
Fast neutrons (energy > 500keV ) may have more penetration than 
gamma rays. 

The table below shows the thickness of material required to 
reduce the intensity of gamma radiation by 50%. 

Material              Thickness, cm 
Wood                  22 
Water                 12
Aluminium             9
Earth                 8 
Concrete              6 - also methane (liquid) and polyethylene 
Steel                 2 
Lead                  0.5 
Composite Laminate    2 
Crystaliron           2 
Superdense            0.4 
Bonded Superdense     0.4 

Shielding only varies with TL for personal armour :-

Personal armour : dose reduction multiplier 
Vacc suit  Standard      Hostile Environment 
TL 7-9        0.9               0.8 
   10-11      0.8               0.6 
   12-13      0.7               0.5 
   14-15      0.6               0.4 
Armour : 
Battle dress 
TL 13         0.3 
TL 14         0.2 
CES (TL 10)   0.7 
Combat armour 
TL 11         0.4 
TL 12         0.3 
TL 14         0.2  
NBC/Hazmat suit 
TL 6-7        0.9 
TL 8          0.8 

CES - combat environment suit 
NBC - nuclear-biological-chemical

Composites or plastics containing elements with good neutron 
capture or absorption properties eg. boron, cadmium, silver, 
indium, graphite, beryllium, and hydrogen will have better values 
than plain composite laminate. 
Alloys containing depleted uranium and similar heavy atoms will be 
at a penalty due to induced radiation (eg. neutrons may cause 
fission). 

Crystaliron (TL 10), and superdense materials (TL 12+) may have an extra
advantage in protecting from cosmic radiation, 
due to the presence of the stabilising current, or its magnetic 
properties (crystaliron hulls are effectively a single magnetic 
domain). A protective belt of charged particles will form around the 
ship. 

> Anyway, if you'll answer my question aboove, and if Bruce or someone
> can get me info on flare intensities and durations, I can work up some
> nice tables.

Background radiation (basal solar and 'cosmic' sources) :-
Baseline 2.7 rem per year (unprotected) - range 27 millirems to 7.3 rems 
per year. 

X1000 for Jovian gas giants and their magnetospheres.

Up to 500-600 rems *per hour* for flares (solar proton storms), with
durations from 2-96 hours(!).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

References
Lamarsh, Textbook of Nuclear Engineering, 2d. Ed.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:43:24 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: WebSector example

Ok, I've done a draft websector, so I could scratch the itch
and see what I could come up with on short notice.  This is
not a wow-amazing page, but it is a start and looks promising
(especially when neighbor worlds are added).

www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/WebSector/Tureded.html

As I said, this isn't necessarily the start point; I just wanted to
try it out and see how it 'looks' at a first pass.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:38:10 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Muscle Power (was return of SAYBOOM)- long

How much power can manly men (or the rest of us) generate?
Some good suggestions have been proposed.

Given a brief review of physiology textbooks and the good old 'Guinness
Book', the following data may be of interest :-

* The overall mechanical efficiency of skeletal muscle ranges from 0
(isometric contractions) to 50% (isotonic contractions e.g. weight
lifting).

* Human skeletal muscle can exert 3-4kg force per square cm of
cross-sectional area. The gluteus maximus (largest single muscle in
body) can exert a tension of 1200kg force.

* It is estimated that the total force that could be developed by all
muscles pulling simultaneously in an average adult male (70-80kg) is
about 22000kg force.

* In young adults, power output from slow walking (~1.3m/sec, 5km/h)
generates 150-175W per step. This is the total power generated - given
the mechanical efficiency of muscle, at least half of this is waste
heat.

* Considering the following physical activity scale :-
(PAR : Physical Activity Ratio - energy expended as a multiple of basal
metabolic rate)

PAR      Activity
1.0-1.4  Reading, writing, eating, standing at rest
1.5-1.8  General office work, washing dishes, ironing
1.9-2.4  Dusting, cooking.
2.5-3.3  Walking at 3-4km/h (1.9-2.5 miles/h), vacuum cleaning,
         making beds, operating machine tools, painting and
         decorating.
3.4-4.4  Walking at 4-6km/h (2.5-3.7 miles/h), gardening, window
         cleaning, mopping the floor, sailing, golf, bricklaying,
         carpentry, motor vehicle repairs.
4.5-5.9  Walking at 6-7km/h (3.7-4.4 miles/h), dancing, slow
         cycling, swimming, chopping wood or felling trees,
         labouring, hoeing, road construction.
6.0-7.9  Walking uphill with load or cross country ; climbing
         stairs, average jogging, cycling, football, energetic
         swimming, tennis, downhill skiing.
8.0+     Marathon running, biathlon, cross-country skiing.

The maximal power output we could expect is in the neighbourhood of 500W
with extreme sporting activity. Remember that only half of this is
useable for mechanical work, however.

Note that this is a sustained power output (more than 20 minutes).

* Bursts of activity e.g. 100m sprint, powerlifting, etc. can develop
very large transient wattages.

Consider Donovan Bailey's world record for the 100m. To accelerate to
his final velocity of ~10m/sec over one second requires 4kW assuming he
masses 80kg (conservative estimate : ignores air resistance).

The world powerlifting record (squat, 125kg class) is 455kg. Assuming a
final height of 2m, this is 9100J of potential energy. Power requirement
is in the vicinity of 2kW.

* How can we capture this wide range in game terms?
(very provisional scratchings from this point)

1. Baseline power output (W) - for average strength (7) :-
upper limbs (mass in kg/2)
lower limbs (mass in kg X (2/3))
(This assumes that muscles are 50% efficient, and gives the power
available for mechanical work).

This situation is comparable to (encumbrance <= STR X 1).
Power output can be doubled or tripled, with the same effects as
increasing encumbrance.

Above this, there should be a task, or a significant penalty for making
the attempt. Hmm...

2. For strength and endurance values above 7 :-
X1.2 per point above 7.
STR/END  8    9    10   11   12   13   14   15
Bonus    1.2  1.4  1.7  2.1  2.5  3.0  3.6  4.3
The bonus for each characteristic is added together, so an STR 8, END 9
character gets a 2.6 multiplier to base output.

3. Athletics skill should factor in here too. +10% per skill level (+5%
per T5 skill level)?

An example :-
Our world record breaking 125kg weightlifter has STR=END of 12, and has
Athletics (Weightlifting) - 4 (8 for T5)

His upper limb power output is (125 X (2.5 + 2.5)/2) X 1.4 = 437.5W
His lower limb power output is (125 X (2.5 + 2.5) X 2/3) X 1.4 = 583.3W

for a combined total of 1020.8W.

To successfully lift the 455kg weight in the approved manner, he needs
to lift it (and himself to a standing position) over a period of five
seconds (say).

Total work = (455 X 10 X 2) + (125 X 10 X 1) = 10350J, taking g as
10ms^(-2) and considerable liberty with our weightlifter's centre of
mass.

Power output = 10350J over 5 seconds or 2070W.

He needs a brief burst of power (X3 basal) to successfully lift the
weight.

Propose :-
To maintain power output at a given level :-
(End + skill) > Difficulty
 
Power output	Difficulty	Recheck Frequency    Example
Basal           Average            30 minutes        average walking
pace                  
Basal X 2       Difficult          5 minutes         marathon, biathlon
Basal X 3       Formidable         10 seconds        100m sprint, power
lifting.

The time increments are based on muscle energy reserves and likely
metabolism. At the end of 10 seconds, anaerobic metabolism must switch
to aerobic to replenish muscle ATP and phosphorylcreatine, and remove
lactic acid.
At the end of about 5 minutes, glycogen stores start running down, and
fat tissue needs to be 'mobilised'.

Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

The MT stuff that was adopted from the Traveller's Digest (in Player's
Manual?) is a very good start (e.g. STR X 15 for maximum lifting
capacity, etc).

References
1. Ganong W. F., Review of Medical Physiology 18th Ed. (1997). Ch 3, 17,
19, 33, and 37.
2. The Economist Desk Companion 3d Ed. p.99
3. The Guinness Book of Records 1999 Edition. Guinness Publishing.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:20:21 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller problems

Failing to be unclear Don McKinney said:


>Problems with GURPS Traveller:
>
>1. It's not metric.


[Hasan chop!]

>3. Apparent lack of research on the part of the GURPS Traveller
>   authors.  Either that, or my Supplement 3 and Spinward Marches
>   Campaign books are different from others.


[Hasan chop!]


I'll hijack these, and add two more of my own:

2. No Rebellion: Me like Shattered Imperium setting. Me want more Rebellion.
4. Lots of typos: Not as many as MegaEratta, but I had to chuckle/wince
   when I opened GT: Star Mercs and saw *on the inside front cover* incorrect
   copy in the ads for GT: BTC and GT: AR1. I hadn't even gotten into the book yet!
   And how about that "stealthy" 1,845 lb. Commando Battledress with 1,200 DR? The
   FPMG-12 (8d x 20 damage) won't even crack it.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Btw: Clif, sarcasm does not translate well in the medium of email. A casual
remark that can be blown off in the real world (tm) as a joke "amongst us
guys" does not translate well in electronic text. I think this may be the
difficulty many of us are having with your posting style. If I may make a
suggestion ... when in doubt, be polite!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:11:27 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Robots (was re: Starships)

> >I think most GMs in Trav will have to come up with a handwave for why so
> >much is still done by humans in Traveller. Especially astrogation seems a
> >field that would gain much by being robotized.
>/Anders Backman
> 
> 	My answer for why so much is done the way it is in Traveller is social
> inertia.  It is done this way, it has ALWAYS been done this way.   I
> explained this to my players before we started.  Traveller is big clunky
> equipment in space.  If you go for complete automation, advanced robotics
> and cyberware it would be another game.

Not necessarily.   Arent' such "programs" in canon somewhere?  It isn't much
of a big stretch to stretch the robot rules to this (which from this thread is
what I believe GURPS has been indicated to do).  The reason there's a person
"behind the wheel" for important things is tricky situations, events that the
programmers can't conceive of and/or program ability to respond to.  Once TL17
(and true Artificial Intelligence) is reached, even this can and should start
to fade since the equipment can essentially become just another NPC, if not
PC.  

Having cabs and stuff be like from Total Recall is something that *should* be
the province of TL12+ worlds if the setting is to actually be done justice or
the game being played is "the 20th century with starships."  Having the Vilani
be obscenely conservative in their culture works too, but it shouldn't be
handled in a fiat and irrational manner unless you just don't care.  :-)  The
same thing for cybernetics, biotechnology, etc.  The Traveller universe is a
big place.  Something is probably going on nearly anywhere.  Course nanotech
probably has to be beyond the common tech levels of the Imperium, and that
doesn't seem unbelievable (to me anyways).

My answer for Anders is that jump calculation is not just number crunching.
It requires at least a little bit of inspiration.  Kind of like Integration by
Parts and picking which choices will be U and DV (and thus which integral will
be easier to evaluate).  You get good at it and you get a "feel" for it.  A
computer can just plug and chug very fast, but if you get to an area that
*requires* intuition of some kind...  

You gonna trust the "feel" of a computer or program?  Maybe after AI's been
proven, which is TL17-18 in Traveller.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:15:33 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

>How much destruction would various starship weapon do if aimed from
>orbit, through a standard atmosphere, at part of a planet?  I'm
>looking for an order of magnitude here....

Depends what rules you use.  Someone's already posted CT and MT.

It's very simple in TNE.  Shouldn't need to reference any special tables.
Damage is one system for vehicles through starships.  There's a simple
translation from character scale to that (divide or multiply by penetration
rating based on which end you're converting from.  In this case divide).

>	. a vehicle?
>	. a house?
>	. a large building?
>	. a block?
>	. a manufacturing complex?

Depends on what the particular item is made of.  There are armor values for
common forms of construction material and cover in the TNE book and FF&S.   I
dunno bout FFS2 or T4.  Also could have some static defenses to deal with.

>	. a town?
>	. a city?

Outside of high level strategy type games, I'd treat these as the componet
buildings/constructions (see above).  There is a table for nuclear warheads
and their effects in atmosphere which would pretty much wipe out a whole town
(though none have the high yields to completely vaporize a city).  

>Similarly, how good is the targetting through an atmosphere?
>Obviously, in vacuum the targetting has to be damned good to hit other
>ships at Traveller ranges.  But through an atmosphere?

Range is a factor (as it always is).  The DSR has modifiers for sensors.  I
dont' recall anything in BL or BR, though I haven't referenced any books.  I'd
probably say +1 or +2 Diff Mods.   For line of sight lightspeed weapons (like
lasers) it shouldn't be any harder IMO.   PAWs have the problem of whether
they're atmospheric or space.  There is a problem switching from "neutral"
(the space weapons) to "charged."   Missles have a UWP size digit in Striker
II turns (1 hour per?)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:16:05 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Out-of-Character comments

> The other thing to remember is that events didn't fall out here
> as they did in the TNE universe - so those events don't influence

You know, I've been reading the commentary and don't think they have to be
assumed to be from the alternate universe/timeline.  Why can't Dulinor have
instigated or participated in that kind of debate in the "real" timeline?
Certainly, it seems the MT materials are clear that his methods and desires
were sticking in the craw of the nobility who despised him as an upstart...
It would have to be more than a universal draft, and devolution to bit players
in his govt, woudln't it?  This is the sort of thing that would piss off alot
of nobles.  What's INI going to bout it?  He's an archduke and with the
devolution of local authority, he probably has tabs on everything going on in
his domain anyways.  The key has to be that the assassination is unexpected.
His dicontent with the existing structure of the Imperium was well known,
though not the severity.

Another thing, isn't the basic premise of G:T that the only event that isn't
in synch with the official universe/timeline that Dulinor's gig gets blown up
(which I don't think will every be "officially" ever explained (leaves room
for Ref's who wanna head that way), that keeps him from plugging Strephon and
Family (and Aslan ambassador)? 

> the thinking of the 'major players'.  Given that Dulinor was the
> instigator in the TNE universe and that Norris did his thing
> without direct involvement in the Rebellion, it's reasonable to
> assume (as I did) that their attitudes won't necessarily change
> much - and Norris went far beyond what Dulinor _said_ he wanted.
> Thus, 'Gallatin' (Dulinor) and 'Dilgaadin' (Norris) are both on
> the same side, but Norris feels that Dulinor is being too timid.

I've been noticing that.  Course my knowledge of where Norris actually went
might be coloring the lenses.  I should think Norris would've been more open
minded to Dulinor in the official timeline, but alas Arrival Vengeance didn't
even try to stop in Ilelish, despite it being his closest neighbor (aside from
the Vilani, who the Denebians end up trading blows with in Corridor).

> I think we're off to a reasonably good start on this; I hope
> others choose to join in.

Yeah.  Me 2.  Kind of what I was looking for awhile back when I asked what
faction people would support.  Of course, with hindsight being 20/20 things
would look different.  But who would people have supported if they were in
1116?  It goes something like is said in the Rebellion Sourcebook.  For the
timid, they wouldn't challenge the power in their area.  For the visionaries
and the brave, though, it becomes something else.   They could fight and be
deposed (if not killed) or could migrate to the faction that espoused their
belief.  


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #188
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 189



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tanks
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Hitchers' Guide
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller problems
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller problems
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: tanks
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: GURPS Traveller
Nuetrino sensors
Re: [Debate] Soegz 1
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:11:22 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks

> >survival due to their small population base. These tanks have frontally
> >mounted engines as extra armor. Of course any frontal arc penetrations (and
> 
>   <ahem>  Citizen, Striker is quite clear in stating that armoured vehicles
> have _rear_ mounted engines. Is remedial re-education really what you want?

I know you're NOT going to teach that Striker is not in synch with the Real
World (tm)...You're not cleared to say *that.*  Please stand by for the
reeducation team.

> ...
> >Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
> >Imperial grav tanks?
> 
>   Under MT grav tanks are armoured equally all round (_and_ roughly egg-
shaped)
> to give them a decent chance when the original CT Imperial Marine grav-APC
> simply lands on them (_six-hundred_ metric tons of fun!)

Except we're not talking bout grav tanks, but ground tanks.  Egg shaped tanks
would be kind of silly for TL-8 and tracks wouldn't it? :-) 

FF&S takes a much more believable approach by allowing you to slope and vary
the armor.  :-P     


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:15:52 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

> Then you are just the person to tell me what sucks about it.  Yeesh!  I ask
> for what sucks and someone gives me something totally the opposite.  I want
> to know what sucks about it!

Well they have the typos that seem to plague the first printing of anything
Traveller. 
There seems to be an issue with the actual physical quality of the books
(anyone have an update?).  Mine are holding up well, though I've taken my
copies off the shelf only a couple times, but I have heard bad things even
bout the hardback of G:T.

Behind the Claw is pretty good, if you want to run a campaign in the G:T
Spinward Marches.  If you've got a rules set and you're happy w/ it (and have
or don't need the data entries and alien info) then that's all u probably
need.  Add Aliens I and the G:T book if you lack the previous materials.  Add
Star Mercs and numerous GURPS suggested-haves if you want to use GURPS rules. 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:16:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>>I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist
non-answers
>>which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so
the
>>"nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!
>
>No, you came out and asked us to list "what sucked" about GT.  That's
>leading with a negative.  Did you even think of asking for reviews or
>opinions?  Let me show you what a "nice" approach would have been:

But since *I* am asking the question, I have the right to decide WHAT I'm
asking for!  Maybe I had seen enough of GURPS to be impressed (in fact, I
had stated this in the opening post) and NOW (to balance my view) I only
wanted to hear the negatives?  It's my right to ask what I like.  If you
want to go on about the positives, start a "positive" thread.  All I ask is
that if I ask for the negatives, you answer with what YOU see to be
negatives; otherwise, start your own thread or don't reply.

If a teacher asks the student for the date of Columbus' "discovery"(well,
for him it was), it would be inappropriate (and certainly not contribute to
his grade, or, at least, the teacher's perception of the student) if the
student answered with the day that man first stepped on the moon.  It would
be just as inappropriate if the student had asked the same of the teacher
and got the same reply.
>
>"Anybody have reviews/comments about GURPS: Traveller?

It was obvious to me that someone would, so that was kind of a needless
rhetorical waste of bandwidth, doncha think?

>  I'm especially
>interested in any problems you may have encountered and how you solved
>them.

Actually, I was ONLY interested in the problems and I wasn't asking how they
solved them.  Maybe I plan to solve them, myself?  If these are questions
YOU wanted to ask, then ask them yourself.  I'm not your marionet.

>  Thanks!"
>
It is perfectly acceptable and actually makes more sense to say "thanks"
AFTER you get the replies, especially when dealing with some of you chaps.
It's like saying "Grace" BEFORE the meal.  Maybe the meal will require you
to have your stomach pumped.  I wouldn't be too thankful, then.  (On a
sidenote, the Old Testament actually teaches to thank the Creator AFTER the
meal.)


>You demand, belittle, and whine.

Demand?  Yeah, right, with what authority?  You're daft!

Belittle?  Yeah.  (just did, I guess)  People tend to do that when they ask
one question and get answers that don't even fit within the parameters.

"What do you wanna do tonight."

"I saw your mother sleeping with your Dad's boss."

"What the fuck are you talking about you psycho fuck?"

>  I'd also insult your taste in sf, but
>from what I've read, you haven't read enough for you to have formed any
taste.

Yeah, and some very well-read people would be so ashamed to be seen with me
because of that.  Get the %&$* outta here!  Your idea of condescension makes
me laugh.  You're like some chick trying to impress me with her Avon
jewelry.

Personally, I'm not impressed by much at all.  When it comes to other men
walking this earth, I like them based on how they treat the "old rags" of
humanity (and on their capacity for and expression of truth, which I have
seen you are capable of). You might say that I would then hate myself, being
as abusive as I am, but if you observed me you would see that I am not
abusive towards people UNTIL I see them abuse the little men and women.

That you did this or that, or that you own this or that, or that you've
slept with her or the other really means nothing to me.  And what that means
for YOU, Doug, is that as long as you're humane to the little man, you never
have to worry about impressing me, because I have nothing against you.

The rest doesn't mean shit to me.  Men who have done the same are now
pushing up daisies.  Show me a man whose has conquered death based on his
own merits, and THEN I'll be impressed.  Death is the great equalizer and
the ONLY true meritable boast in my eyes is to do your best to make the
world better than it was when you were born into it or to AT LEAST not
contribute to its decline.

You can do this.  I can do this.  If we all can do this I'll be impressed.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:21:29 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>BTW: did the fact that I answered your other questions *and* gave you a
>pointer to a place that would help you draw your own conclusions (i.e.
>GURPS Lite) mean anything at all?  Apparently not.
>
>Tom Schoene


I'm sorry, but I don't remember reading such a post.  Did I give evidence of
having received it?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:26:25 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>> It's too easy to min/max -- power goes to the person who made their
>> character better.  And somehow, that's never me. :>
>
>As opposed to power going to the 6-term veteran with 16+ skills, when you
>failed a reenlistment roll after one term and have only two skills? :-)
>(Hey, it's happened to me.)

In T4, if I'm not mistaken, you can then switch careers.  If you fail to get
"hired" in all of the other careers, then you can get drafted, I believe.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:30:55 PST
From: "Andrew Hewson" <loup_wolf@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Hitchers' Guide

You wouldn't want to read it.

Listen to the CDs of the original radio series - they are *much* better.

Regards
Andy				loup_wolf@hotmail.com
========================******========================
 Trolls aren't stupid !  They're thermally challenged

>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Subject: Hitchers' Guide
>Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:42:00 -0500
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>
>I don't want the suicidal robot to put me over the edge.  : )
>
>I've heard about it, but never read it.  After finding out that the 
secret
>of the universe is 42 (after which the band "Level 42" was named), why 
would
>I want to read it?
>
>--Clif
>



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:33:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>> I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist
>non-answers
>> which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a response, so
>the
>> "nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!
>
>No, you didn't.  You started with a fairly rude phrase "what sucks?" is not
>polite discourse where I come from.

I'm not hearing any post-Reformation taboos.  Where I come from, "what
sucks" obviously MEANS "what is negative".  If you think KJV biblical words
like "damnable", "hell", and "pisseth" are "bad" words, then you had better
filter me out.

>  Then you decided that, because you
>didn't get answers that precisely suited your rather nebulous demand,

"What sucks about GURPS Traveller?"  Pretty simplistic, if you ask me...

> you
>would insult the people who responded politely and in good faith.

Yeah, right.  Go back and read again.
>
>You want to know why relatively few people have really  harsh things to say
>about GURPS.  I think it's because it's a pretty good system.  That's why
>it's lasted going on 15 years, which is an amazingly long run for an RPG
>system.

In that case the answer would have been silence or "Nothing sucks about
GURPS Traveller.  Out."

>
>I've lurked here a while and seem people complain about you.  I was
>inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, you have
>today confirmed many of the worst things people have said about you and
>earned a permanent place in my kill filters.

Hey, I'm moving up in the world.

>  You need to grow up a bit and
>learn to accept that what you want may not be what other people want to
>give you.  That's life.

And you need to grow up and accept that fact that while I still have my
freedom of speech (in actuality, you always do, unless they gag you) I am
going to point out the fact that an answer doesn't fit within the parameters
of the question and re-ask it.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:39:03 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller problems

>Btw: Clif, sarcasm does not translate well in the medium of email. A casual
>remark that can be blown off in the real world (tm) as a joke "amongst us
>guys" does not translate well in electronic text. I think this may be the
>difficulty many of us are having with your posting style. If I may make a
>suggestion ... when in doubt, be polite!


I'll keep trying, but remember, (as I wax profound, in imitation of Tom)
"Sarcasm bites both ways."

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:07:16 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

I had *plonked* Clif a few days ago, but I figured I might get a good laugh
out of his most recent antics (the GURPS question) after I saw the fallout
from other people's replies. Clif did not disappoint.

>Personally, I'm not impressed by much at all.  When it comes to other men
>walking this earth, I like them based on how they treat the "old rags" of
>humanity (and on their capacity for and expression of truth, which I have
>seen you are capable of). You might say that I would then hate myself,
being
>as abusive as I am, but if you observed me you would see that I am not
>abusive towards people UNTIL I see them abuse the little men and women.


Clif, champion of justice! This is just too rich. You see, his rudeness is
everybody *else's* fault, he's just in it for the *little guy*...

I am literally amazed and astonished by this random and pointless outburst.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:12:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller problems

- ---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
> "Sarcasm bites both ways." <

Especially if you have your teeth in backwards!








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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:23:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>I had *plonked* Clif a few days ago, but I figured I might get a good laugh
>out of his most recent antics (the GURPS question) after I saw the fallout
>from other people's replies.

Yeah, right.  Will your "plonks" ever really be convincing?  I had figured
your "plonk" was about as genuine as a plug nickel.  I see that I was right.

> Clif did not disappoint.

>
>I am literally amazed and astonished by this random and pointless outburst.


How is this "random" and how is it an "outburst"?  If anything, I was trying
to express my exceptance of Dough, giving him the benefit of the doubt in
assuming that he is not the sort of person who looks down on people because
they aren't as well to do as he is.

I can always rely on you to behave as you do, Chris.  You didn't disappoint
me, either.
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:50:45 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: tanks

>Having been "only" on M60A3 (19E20)(Pattons the rest of the world)

 Er,  from our side of the world the M47 was the "Patton", 
the M60 was just the M60.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:05:52 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

>OTOH, Traveller books aren't any easier to manipulate, so maybe you
ARE
>doing yourself a favor by making it harder to transcribe.

Actually Traveller books are just as easy if you have a scanner
:-)

If I can't be bothered hacking the security on the PDF file, then PDF
file is more "secure" than the book, as I have to print the PDF and
then scan it, whereas I just have to scan the book.

BTW, Rob was asking why people want to cut and paste.

My major use of my scanner and online documents is for putting
together convention scenarios.
The last scenario I did, I scanned lots of character sketches from
various RPG's and scanned character descriptions from several
locations, then made minor modifications, plus plot related details,
resulting in a unique  collection of characters with less work than
writing them from scratch.

Another reason, often, in a game, one wants to provide only _some_of
the information in a book, so a scan or cut-&-paste is much better
than a photocopy or full print-out, especially when there's some
additional detail, such as the advertising brochure I put together
once a ame set on the  "King Richard", which included quite a bit of
text from the original, but more pictures and colours.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:48:02 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

>Also remember that if they "hit" that truck, there will be no
evidence to
>collect from the bodies to prove that they were, in fact, Zhodani
spies and
>what  they did was not, in fact, murder, but heroic action to save
The
>Imperium.
>
>Most governments frown on firing starship class weapons at their
planets.
>would say the Imperium frowns on it too, but would accept good
reasons as
>above - once the investigation was over.

Unless the planet is low tech, I'd say the first the PC's hear of the
response will be the missiles or lasers of the planetary defense
system vapourizing their ship, or at least disabling their power plant
and drive.units.

Starship-class weapons being fired at a planet without prior
governmental clearance by anything other than an obvious Imperial Navy
ship in hot pursuit (and even then they'd normaly at least _request_
clearance before firing)  is an act of war or piracy, and will be met
with lethal force.

"Weapons, get me a firing solution on that truck"
"Yessir"
"Comms, get me COACC"
"On line"
"COACC, this is Captain Hieronymous Kurzweil of the Imperial Navy Ship
Ingenue requesting permission to fire on a planet-bound vehicle
engaged in an Imperial crime according to Naval Regulation 5043,
section 5, paragraph 12"
"....Er, right, um, excuse me, sir, while I contact my supervisor"
"You do that COAC.
Weapons, fire when ready !
It's good the Book just requires us to _request_ permission before
firing, isn't it gentlemen ?  "
"Amen to that sir, the truck's just become one with the lightning. You
want we should mess up the territory around it a bit more ?"
"No thank you, Weapons, I have no desire to indulge in landscape
gardening. Comms, I'll be in my cabin when the ruffled feathers call"

I'd say the only way the player's could avoid damage to the ship would
be to immediately broadcast a surrender and power down the drives to
minimum required to hold station. Even that might not be enough.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:59:45 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Yeah, right.  Will your "plonks" ever really be convincing?  I had figured
>your "plonk" was about as genuine as a plug nickel.  I see that I was
right.


I don't know. This is only the second one. I dropped the first one after you
got booted, I figured if and when you came back I'd give you a second
chance. There's nothing to indicate otherwise because your posts no longer
offended my eyes. However, you may assume my world revolves around you all
you'd like. It'll make no difference after I plonk you again.

This time I had to see for myself if you were being as annoying as the
second hand accounts indicated. You'll end up back in the killfile soon
enough.

>How is this "random" and how is it an "outburst"?  If anything, I was
trying
>to express my exceptance of Dough, giving him the benefit of the doubt in
>assuming that he is not the sort of person who looks down on people because
>they aren't as well to do as he is.


Although I'm not one to point out spelling errors, I did have to take a
double take on the above: "my exceptance of Dough," it's unrelated and not
terribly insulting to you, but I chuckled. It has a humorous double meaning.

>I can always rely on you to behave as you do, Chris.  You didn't disappoint
>me, either.


Sure, please inform me of how I behave Clif. I'd love to know. I'll suspend
my *plonk* until you reply. If you're concerned about bandwidth, you can
send it to me privately.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:58:05 -0800
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Nuetrino sensors

>OK, I give.  What exactly should the nuetrino sensors...look like?

Big spherical or cylindrical hunks of opaque metal. THe actual neutrino
sensing element belongs inside a thick layer of superdense.

(And the only reason to put it outside the hull is to get it away from
the power plant, I suppose.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:21:52 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: [Debate] Soegz 1

IMPERIAL NAVY INTELLIGENCE REPORT

Semantic Analysis of "Reforming the Imperium:  A Vargr View".

Author:  Soegz.  (Probable pseudonym)

Characteristics of Text.
Language:  Transform Anglic, Antarean Vargr Dialect.
Duration of Recording:  379 minutes.

Characteristics of Author.
Characteristic			Reliability Estimate
Species:  	Vargr 		(100%)
Gender:  	Male 		(90%)
Charisma:	Extreme 	(99%)

<Summary Follows>
The Imperium is a joint creation of many species.  These include Humans of
many kinds, Vargr, Vegans and many others.  Despite this, it is dominated
by humans, and human nobles are prone to view it as a human empire.

It is a characteristic of human intellectuals to worship the status quo,
and regard their own societies as constituting the ultimate development of
social organisation, or the "End of History".  Vargr do not share this
prejudice.

It is commonly believed that Vargr are incapable of creating stable and
organised societies.  This ignores the existance of at least two states,
composed, like the Imperium, of a mixture of Vargr, humans and other
species, that have existed for a duration comparable to that of the
Imperium.  These are the Julian Protectorate and the Domain of Antares, and
especially the League of Antares, itself.  Antares is a true sovereign
power, obedient only to the Archduke Brzk, and the mighty Emperor Strephon,
to whom alone Brzk defers.

It is a foolish human conceit to believe that any remote authority can
impose an arbitrary model on every world in the Imperium.  Such faceless,
uncharismatic powers can only fail in the face of more charismatic local
leaders.

To reform the Imperium, it is necessary to reconstitute it along more
Vargr-like lines.  By permitting more freedom from arbitrary and remote
centralised authority, it will be more possible for local uncharismatic
tyrants to be removed, rather than having them supported by a central
authority and its blind diktats.  Freedom can not be established from
above, it can only be seized from below.

The strength of the Imperium lies in the partnership between the species
that constitute it.  It is time for the human dominated nobility to
recognise this.  Brzk is the embodiment of this partnership.

Brzk is the mightiest of all Vargr leaders.  Brzk defers only to Strephon. 
Brzk is loyal to Strephon.  Brzk is mighty and charismatic.  Brzk deserves
his power.  Follow Brzk, the only leader who can save the Imperium!  Brzk
deserves your respect.  Brzk is charismatic.  

Brzk is charismatic.  
Brzk is charismatic.  
Brzk is charismatic.  
Brzk is charismatic.  
Brzk is charismatic.  
.....
.....
.....
(and so on for three hours).

<End Summary>

Analysis:

Characteristic				Reliability
Identity of Author:	Archduke Brzk	(95%)
Security Threat Level:	Low		(90%)

Comments:
Aside from the characteristic Vargr posturing, these sentiments, while
politically controversial, do not constitute a threat to the security of
the Imperium.

Analysts:
<Omitted> 

Out of character:
My brain isn't quite working, so this doesn't quite constitute a cohesive
position.  Too bad - not all positions will necessarily be cohesive.

I have used this format rather than attempting to simulate the bombastic
style of an extremely charismatic Vargr.  Such a style would, I suspect, be
deeply annoying to read.

Anyway, the key elements are that Brzk was one of the more liberal leaders,
with a clearly pan-sophontist style.  However, I can't see a Vargr buying
the idea of a remote central authority having the power to interfere in
local affairs.

Comments etc are welcome.  If anyone objects to me grabbing Soegz, create
your own Vargr leader.  It's guaranteed that there will be more than one
Vargr viewpoint!  And it's only a guess by Naval Intelligence that 'Soegz'
is Brzk...  He may not be.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:25:37 +0200 (EET DST)
From: Eppu Tuominen <eptitu@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Thomas Schoene wrote:
> > It's too easy to min/max -- power goes to the person who made their
> > character better.  And somehow, that's never me. :>

  This only happens, if you have a gaming group of munchkins. Every system
I've ever seen can be abused by a determined enough power player, and
GURPS is no expection. The easy solution: play with people more interested
in playing their roles, than creating maximized killers. GURPS offers a
very powerful set of tools for creating in depth character personalities 
you'd never get by randomly rolling a character. (Just IMO, of course.)

> Of course, I'm in it for the roleplaying; I don't generally care too much
> about whether my character is "more powerful" than another character.  I
> care whether I like playing him.  Mostly, that comes down to personality,
> not power. 

  It's all about how you play your character. My GURPS-based character in
the Traveller campaign where I'm a player (I also GM my own camapaign) is
absolutely the weakest of the group if you look at skill levels or total
point value (some 25 pts below the next lowes one), but somehow he still
seems to be the one who actually gets things done. Accomplishing things is
more a matter of attitude, than point values. (Of course my character is
more than a bit nuts, and I fully expect him to get killed sooner or later
with all the stupid risks he takes, but that's all part of the character
concept I happened to come up with.)

> > It takes ages to generate a character (or fleshed-out NPC) without
> > computer support.
> 
> This becomes much easier with experience and templates.  I can do a basic
> character within about half an hour and the process forces you to produce a
> personality to go with the stats. 

I've been using GURPS for about 2 or 3 years now, and I can put together
an NPC in about 15 minutes. A PC would take maybe 20 min to half an hour.
That's just for the numbers of course, coming up with a concept takes a
varying amount of time before that. That's actually one of the things I
like about GURPS: it forces you to come up with a pretty solid concept,
before you start putting anything on paper.


>  > Some GURPS things are not as balanced as I would want (were I to run
> > GURPS, there would be no editic memory, for example).  The importance
> > of different skills varies between genres and even games -- a generic
> > system won't reflect that in prices.

  The example you picked happens to be one I agree with. Eidetic memory,
as it is written, is patently ridiculous. That's one of the very few
advantages/disadvantages I've had to disallow, though.

> > The usefulness of the stats isn't in proportion to their cost.  Would
> > you rather have strength or dex in a modern game?  Which costs more?
> > Similarly, GURPS skills are related as "hard" "easy" etc., and cost
> > appropriately.  I'd rather see them cost according to their in-game
> > _usefulness_, whatever that may be.
> 
> This is a fairly common criticism, and one I can sympathize with.  Low ST
> characters abound in high-tech campaigns because ST isn't worth the points,
> even though modern weight training may make high ST relatively easy to come
> by.  I'm not sure what to do about this.  Maybe halving the cost of ST and
> HT might work?  

  We've done just that in our games, works for us at least. Also we have
recently converted to a varinat skill system, where skills are bought at a
base of 10 (instead of being based on a stat), and you might get some
bonus to the roll from whatever stat the GM deems applicable to the
situation at hand. This nicely eliminates the worst min-maxing technique
in GURPS system. (Who needs points in skills, I'll just buy DX and IQ 14,
and I can get away with 1/2 pt in each skill.) With the ten based system
you can play a character with all the stats at 10 and most points dumped
into skills, and do just fine. (There are people like this in real life.)

> > Then there's the gripe I have with point/skill systems in general:
> > Everybody ends up with a little of all the important skills.  The
> > medic (for example) isn't special, because everybody has a _little_
> > medicine.
> 
> FWIW, it seems realistic to me that people in dangerous professions, like
> Travelling, will pick up  a smattering of emergency skills.  Compare with
> the military, which instructs everyone in First Aid, basic survival, gun
> training, etc.  To make specialists valuable, remember to assign negative
> modifiers to skill attempts in difficult cases.  The half-point skill 11
> wonder is in bad shape with a -4 on an attempt while a skill 16 specialist
> is in much better shape.

  GURPS puts a lot of responsibility on the player to pick skills, that
actually make sense. Of course the GM can disallow any skill he feels the
character couldn't have learned with his background, but if everyone
understands the object og the game, this reaaly should not be necessary.

  I totally agree, that interstellar travellers, mercenaries and the like
should have a wide selection of skills at low level besides their actual
specialty. You pick up the strangest things moving around a lot. (A frined
of mine comes to mind. He's served in the british armed forces, travelled,
quite literally, around the world, and done maybe a dozen odd jobs in half
a dozen different countries. A GURPS character based on him would have low
values in literally dozens of skills, some of them _very_ strange.)

  Specialization still counts for something, even with people having a lot
of low level skills. Being a competent doctor, for example, takes 40-50
pts worth of skills, and there are many situations where nothing short of
a qualified medical specialist will do. 

> > Combined
> > with a "you can get improvement in the skills you use" (and I'll admit
> > that I don't know GURPS will enough to know if they advocate this
> > approach) you end up with the following unrealistic situation I've
> > encountered in RuneQuest:
> > Character gets hurt.
> > The entire party lines up to try and bandage him, lowest skill first.
> > After all, if the high-skill medic does it, he's likely to succeed and
> > nobody will get to try.
> 
> They don't advocate this approach at all.  Points are awarded for a session
> or adventure and are pooled; they can generally be used for anything the GM
> approves.  The GM can always veto a point expenditure and has the option of
> directing some points to skills used significantly in the game.  Note the
> significantly, this sort of munchkin tactic can be easily vetoed. 

  We use a slightly more controlled system. Most skill ponts we get are
from training. (Lots of time for this during jumps.) When someone
accpomlishes something especially noteworthy with a skill, the GM might
award 1/2 skill point for that sprcific skill. This is not very common, on
the average, our 4 person PC group hauls in a net total os 1/2 to 1 1/2
pts for a full length session. This simulates real life rasonably well
IMO. (Remember you get 50% of work hours as training, we get a steady
income of points just by doing our regular jobs on the ship.)

  Once again, if people actually concentrate on maintaining the roles of
the characters, no one will even consider trying a skill just for the
chance of scoring a critical and being awarded a skill point.

> The big thing GURPS offers is flexibility.  Frankly, it is a game for
> people who like to tinker with the rules.

>  I'm doing a very "space opera" version, with high adventure, lots of
> "cinematic" touches, and less realism.  GURPS supports this much better
> than CT, IMHO.

  Customizability is the main atrraction GURPS has for me. You go for the
cinematic feel, and GURPS gives you excellent tools to do just that. Our
games are the polar opposite of this. We try to make everything as
brutally realistic as possible, and once again GURPS easily bends to our
wishes. (Of course, our version of GURPS is so haevily customized, that SJ
himself might have trouble recognizing it, but the again I guess most
peoples' GURPS campaigns are that way. As you said, it's a system for
people who like to tinker.)  

- -------------
Eppu Tuominen
eptitu@utu.fi
- -------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #189
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 190



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships
GURPS Traveller problems
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: Above the law
What's happened to qrc.com?
The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
re: Neutrino Sensors
Re: Starship weapons vs. planet
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!
Re: GURPS Traveller
GT: Grav compensators
Re: T5 Questions
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189
Re: WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing
GURPS and Metrics
Re: Neutrino Sensors
Boycott Clif

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:13:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: From Andrew's Notes:  Classic Vilani Ships

Date sent:      	Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:06:39 -0500 (EST)
From:           	Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>

>While I certainly don't wish to imply that Z.S. had any positive
>functionality -- since we know that wasn't the case -- </sarcasm> perhaps
>these two design features (and fuel purification plants, below) could be
>less paranoiacally explained in terms of Z.S. having a more widespread
>starport infrastructure than the 3I.  That is, every destination would
>have facilities to refuel and renew life support -- making it inefficient
>to lug the spares around through jump all the time.  The Vilani, after
>all, were supposed to be masters of organization & efficiency...

I think its chicken and egg. The policy wouldn't work without an extensive
infrastructure, but I'm also sure that the Vilani would not have been unaware
of all the benefits of such a policy.

>Yes <G>.

>First, there's not any "canonical" reference that I'm aware of to Z.S.
>limiting its citizens' mobility.  It's a new creation of Andrew's, one
>which makes little sense to me.

Well my reading of materials says "heraditary caste system with works
tied to their locations" (or some such wording). However I don't think the
general population were formally restricted as such. Its just that since
most people had no reason to travel, they generally didn't.

>Which leads on to the second issue:  "divide and rule".  I think Z.S.'s
>policy would be exactly the opposite, actually:  unify and rule.  The
>Vilani wanted there to be a culturally and socially homogeneous
>interstellar domain, right?  A policy of 'divide and rule' is geared to
>produce a heterogeneous one -- and to me, much better describes the 3I,
>with its mostly-enforced rule against multi-system states within the
>Imperium yet allowance of local "cultural regions" or "autonomous
>districts" as regional counterweights, settlement of power and authority
>(both political & military) on local levels, etc.

Here Kenji and I disagree. I agree my ideas of divide and rule are wrong.
However I don't think the Vilani did have a deliberate policy of assimilation.
We apparently have large numbers of cultures which survived more or less
intact throughout some 1500+ years of Vilani rule. If the Vilani did have a
policy of absorbsion they would not have survived. Now it might be that all
these cultures were reconstructed during the RoM and/or Long Night, but to
me that doesn't make sense either. To start with, linguistically they would
be about as far removed from Vilani as the French are from Latin which
does not appear to be the case. Also their cultures should (IMHO) show a
far greater Vilani influence than appears to be the case. My theory is that
this concept of the "evil" Vilani deliberately attempting to crush local cultures
is a much later representation (a propoganda ploy by the RoM) driven by
political motivations. IMHO what actually happened was that the Ziru Sirka
placed heavy restrictions (including travel) on non-absorbed races (precedent:
the Vegans) and imposed additional taxes (to pay for their "repression") on
them and imposed Vilani governors to organise them to "efficently" pay these
taxes. But that is as far as it went, there was no deliberate policy of
"Vilanification"; it was just to be a part of the Interstellar community, you had
to play by the Vilani rules. Now there may well have been some cases where
an individual race was judged to be too dangerous to "Interstellar stability" to
be allowed to exist and these races may well have been deliberately
"assimilated" (precedent: the Leoskalth); but as a general rule, the many
alien cultures the Vilani conquered during the Consolidation Wars were
allowed to continue to exist so long as they did not threaten overall Vilani
dominance.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:42:36 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: GURPS Traveller problems

	I do not use GURPS game system, and I bought the GT books just 
	for the background material. I found the text content to be 
	quite good, but there is some problems:

	1) GT uses alternative background setting. I have been playing 
	Traveller for a long time, and have absolutely no intention of 
	switching into alternative timeline. This means that only those 
	parts of the GT backgroud dealing with pre-rebellion times are 
	relevant to me.

	2) GURPS uses old measurement system (feet, pound, furlongs per 
	fortnight, etc), and sometimes mixes them with SI-system 
	(kW/cubic feet, etc). Descriptions of OIU measurement units and 
	their SI conversions can still be found in dictionaries, but
	sometimes there is multiple definitions for one measurement 
	unit with different values (English, US and Russian definitions 
	may differ).

	3) GURPS copied the idea of technology levels form Traveller,
	but uses different scale. In GURPS Traveller they replaced the 
	original Traveller Tech Levels with their own versions, thus 
	making it harder to use old Traveller material with GT.

      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:00:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
> <<snip>>
>> 
>> The most recent Russian APC has a 120mm smoothbore. Only difference
>> between it and the ones on their tanks is that the barrel is shorter.
>> That probably makes it more of a target, but on the other hand, it also
>> means that when they have to shoot at tanks, they actually have a
>> chance! :-)
>> 
> If you're referring to the BMP-3, it has a 100mm gun-launcher, capable
> of firing either a conventional round or an ATGM.  Since no FSU 100mm
> round can penetrate the front armor of an M1-series tank, I would expect
> the ATGM to be similarly futile against the front of an M1.  (BTW, no
> current FSU/Russian tank carries a 120mm gun.  T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90/T-90+
> tanks carry a 125mm smoothbore gun, which is much less effective than
> the 120mm Rheinmetall gun carried by the M1A1/M1A2, the Leopard 2, and
> (IIRC) the LeClerc, or the 120mm rifled gun on the Challenger series of
> British tanks.

I think this was a BMP (or was it BTR?) *6*. Something they are
producing for export, because they can't afford it themselves! The
specs are from a TV program covering modern armor, and since the
Russian gear they covered was being shown to prospective buyers, I
think the info was correct.

Whatever it was, it had 8 wheels and was a *fast* SOB. They were
running it at speed up over an earth mound (15-20 feet tall) and it
went *flying over the top and hit ground again about halfway down the
slope. <shudder>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:15:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

In mail you write:

> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>> > Then have the PCs unable to find the
>> bad
>> >guy's bodies ;)
>> >
>> 
>> Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
>> Jesse
>
> Nope, this is great for the PC's...no corpus to habeas! "Killed _who_
> officer? I don't see any bodies..."

Police forensics tech testifying at trial:

"Samples of air were collected in a grid centered on the probable last
location of the vehicle. Analysis showed a distribution of elements
consistent with the destruction of a large truck and several bodies by
a medium ship's laser. Some DNA fragments were recovered. While they
were insufficient for ID, they are not inconsistent with the DNA of the
purported victims."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:26:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 2/23/99 11:37:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca writes:
>
> << 
>  And, for my curiousity, why do people want to do this? Don't like the
>  layout? Want to make vehicle cards? Why...
>   >>
> Mainly to enable us to print the text in smaller segments.  My printer is 
> more
> reliable if  I print only a few pages at a time.   prinitng a large 40 page
> document takes a long time and if a mistake occurs, I have to reprint the
> whole thing.  I'm new to PDF, can you print it in sections,  I haven't dared
> just push the print buttom and wait.

You can tell it to print individual *pages*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:28:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Above the law

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>>Actually, the son of the high party member has a lesser chance of even
>>being arrested. He'll be well known, and if a rookie cop goes to arrest
>>him the odds are good that another cop will pull him aside and warn
>>him. And if *that* doesn't happen, you can be sure that the son will
>>inform him. 
>> 
>>You know, the standard "Do you know who I am?" bit. 
>
> That reminds me of one of my all-time favourite jokes. It's from an episode
> of Rowan Atkinson's _The Thin Blue Line_ where this young supercillious
> upper-class twit who has just been brought into the police station leans
> across the desk and sneers at the desk sergeant: "Do you know who my
> father is?". And the sergeant replies completely dead-pan: "I'm afraid I
> can't help you there, Sir. Have you tried asking your mother?"
>
>>A much older example is the "carte blanche" Cardinal Richilieu gave to
>>Milady deWinter.
>
> Ahh... I remember how pleased one of the players in my Paranoia campaign was
> when he got his hand on a document saying:
>
>                 It is with the Computer's knowledge,
>                 and for the good of Alpha Complex,
>                 that the bearer of this has done
>                 what he has done.
>
> Some people never learn...

*Ouch*. In a Paranoia game, I'd hold onto it if I was *certain* it was
secret. If anyone else in the party knew about it, I'd pick the person
I most wanted to get eliminated and suggest that he carry it "for
safekeeping". Let *him* get offed by the folks who want the document!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:07:49 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: What's happened to qrc.com?

Anyone on the HIWG or trav-tech lists :-

Is the server at qrc.com being fixed, or something?

There haven't been any digests to either list according to majordomo
since 17th Feb for HIWG and 19th Feb for trav-tech.

Does anyone know what's going on?

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:22:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>Another thing, isn't the basic premise of G:T that the only event that isn't
>in synch with the official universe/timeline that Dulinor's gig gets blown up
>(which I don't think will every be "officially" ever explained (leaves room
>for Ref's who wanna head that way), that keeps him from plugging Strephon and
>Family (and Aslan ambassador)? 

Well, as I understand it, SJGs contract restricts them to a universe where
Strephon didn't die. Just how that came about is shrouded in mystery, but
assuming for purposes of argument that Loren has settled on one single
divergent event from which all differences flow (so much more elegant than
multiple differences), the event must take place quite a while before 1116,
since in the OTU Strephon had not decided to make Norris an archduke when
he died whereas in tht GTU he had done so long enough before to have
summoned Norris to appear at Capital in late 1116.

Of course, if Loren don't want to mess with the 'single divergent event',
all bets are off and any amount of differences are possible. But if he does,
conditions in the GTU should in most cases be identical to conditions in
the pre-Rebellion OTU.
  

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:29:42 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

"Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> No, a bay has 50 internal spaces, and take up 50 internal spaces, so
>there
>> is no net saving. (Ie. bays are internal, _not_ "honking big turrets".) 
>> This is while I rule that bay weapons must be in a bay. 
>
>This has been errata'd, hasn't it?  A 50-ton bay is supposed to take up 20
>spaces (not 50).  

Not that I know of. Last time I checked, a 50-ton bay takes up 50 internal
spaces, and can mount 50 spaces of weapons.

Mind you, I heard rumours that David Pulver thinks bays should be "honking
big turrets", so I built a switch in "GT Shipyard" that will let the
designer decide whether to follow Traveller rules (which have always
treated bays as being internal) or GURPS Traveller rules (if they ever
deviate from Traveller in this, which AFAIK they haven't yet).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:36:26 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: re: Neutrino Sensors

At 09:47 23/02/1999 -0500, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:
>Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The problem for the artist is that none of this technology actually
>requires detectors on the surface of the ship - right in the middle sould
>work just as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>One reason for putting them outside - they don't need full-time life support.
>Put all the shirtsleeve stuff together in the middle of the ship and it's
>easier to circulate air and heat, so move the stuff that doesn't require
>shirtsleeves to the outside.
>
>Another reason to have them on the outside is easy replacement. This
>ship is a sensor platform, she probably gets the latest sensor upgrades
>as soon as the IISS can afford them. It may be easier to have all the
>sensors on external, easy to swap pods rather than having to rip things
>out of the core of the ship.

That's two good reasons for putting them on the outside I hadn't thought
of.

So a sphere of superdense, possibly with mounting brackets at the base.
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:55:37 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Starship weapons vs. planet

At 10:41 23/02/1999 -0700, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>> 
>> > Then have the PCs unable to find the
>> bad
>> >guy's bodies ;)
>> >
>> 
>> Oooh, dat's gotta' sting!!!  :)
>> Jesse
>
>Nope, this is great for the PC's...no corpus to habeas! "Killed _who_
>officer? I don't see any bodies..."

Apart from half a dozen pairs of smoking boots.

Any smiting from on high always leaves smoking footwear, otherwise
someone might miss the point.

:-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 05:43:57 PST
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Let me "pine" in on the debtate here...As a newbie to the list...I 
respect what the long time members of the TML have to say...and the 
opinion of the GURPS system is one of them...
I'm glad to see that SJG is publishing the material now. But as has been 
said before. The material should flow evenly from CT/MT. And when some 
systems and bases are left out of the Spinward Marches they 
don't...Hopefully that will be corrected in other editons of "cannon" 
systems like the S. Rim.
But as a GURPS fan...I'm glad that the Traveller materials are being 
played...And to me GURPS stacks up as the best system out there. I like 
the point based system and the realism of the combat. To me this is a 
superior system to say ADnD..I don't want to get off topic. :)
GURPS world books can be used by a GM too...If some was in a 
Trek/traveller "mood" then a GM could transport the players to a world 
based on Ming China or Rome...
That's just a few pluses I see...Now back to the flame war :)
Mike

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:03 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!

In a message dated 2/23/99 11:32:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dmckinne@itds.com writes:

<< 
 Seriously, for a moment, some of us did point-based systems for MT and
 CT.  Point based is NOTHING new.  Point based is good.  Point-based is
 one thing T5 SHOULD be.
  >>

	But please, make it an optional rule.   I've always found point based games
lead to characters that are too uniform and predictable.  In an old Chivalry
and Sorcery game I ran the entire crew of Vikings had Personal Appearance
Scores of 4 (the minimum on a 4-20 scale).   I have the feeling that if stats
were point based in Traveller everyone would end up with a SOC score of either
2 or 12--I mean unless you're noble, what's the point wasting points on SOC.
For me, it's just not Traveller without the Traveler character gen system.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:48:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:

> >as abusive as I am, but if you observed me you would see that I am not
> >abusive towards people UNTIL I see them abuse the little men and women.
> 
> 
> Clif, champion of justice! This is just too rich. You see, his rudeness is
> everybody *else's* fault, he's just in it for the *little guy*...

Why didn't Dulinor think of that excuse????

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 05:54:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: GT: Grav compensators

Grav compensators. From what I can read on the rules in vehicles, 
the compensators compensate up to 6 Gs. What happens when it is 
exceded? If I jam on 9 Gs, do I have 3 Gs of acceleration or does it
fail and I eat 9 Gs? The way the rules seem to indicate, it is the
former. If so, how much in Gs can an average person take for how 
long?

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:03:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 11:27 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Perhaps a Traveller movie with D-Leo (I learned from my local newspaper
>that's the nickname that his buddies use for him) could generate such
>interest...

Hmmm....  Young D-Leo boards the ISCV King Richard, and spots his ONE True
Love (Kate Winslet) boarding as a High Passenger.  Leo dreams of meeting
her, and showing her that a SOC 3 dweeb can talk her out of her clothes
just as well as her SOC 10 jerk fiance.  This fantasy continues right to
the point the medic throws him in the low-sleep berth...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:09:34 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:16:57 -0500 "Clif" <brclif@digital.net> writes:
>>>I phrased it nicely THE FIRST TIME but got a bunch of bullsheist
>non-answers
>>>which didn't fit within the parameters of the question as a 
>response, so
>the
>>>"nice" approach doesn't seem to be working, Mr.!
>
>Belittle?  Yeah.  (just did, I guess)  People tend to do that when 
>they ask
>one question and get answers that don't even fit within the 
>parameters.
>
>"What do you wanna do tonight."
>
>"I saw your mother sleeping with your Dad's boss."
>
>"What the fuck are you talking about you psycho fuck?"
>

==================

Clif, leave the trash talk to the B-ball players.  If you expect any of
us to take you seriously, you have to act and talk like an adult.  Get
off the proselytizing (sp?), and maybe you'll get some answers to your
questions rather than getting brow beaten.

Just my 0.02 Cr

JimC
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:18:01 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 05:14 PM 2/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Perhaps you would have gotten more usable responces if you would have
>>phrased your question more diplomaticly like, "What are the weaknesses in
>>the Gurps system?"
>>
>>When you ask for 'what sucks' you put people in a negative frame of mind
>and
>>make them defensive and warry.
>
>Defensive of ...?  Me?  I was the one who ASKED! And since when is
>"trolling" my style?  If I ask to know "what sucks" I want to know what
>sucks and I WANT them to be in a negative frame of mind so that they can
>remember what is negative in their minds about the system.  *Woi!*
>

What I ment by a negative frame of mind is that, they are NOT going to
answer you in the way you hope they will, not that their answers will be
negative.  Their responce is what is negative not thier comments.  Oh, and
when you ask 'what sucks' it does sound troll like in that it it is
confrontational and inflamitory.

>>  One of the secrets to successfull
>>interogation is to develope a positive or 'yes' attitude in the person you
>>are questioning or as the old saying goes, 'you catch more flies with honey
>>than with veneger.'  People generally preffer to be conversed with instead
>>of cross examined.
>
>I'm not cross-examining them.  I was asking for sincere opinions (hopefully
>followed by support).  You people act like the Mafia owns GURPS or
>something.  What are you afraid of?  Don't let your freedom of speech slip
>away so easily...
>>
>--Clif
>

I have never been afraid of expressing my oppinion but you did not ask for
an oppinion.  You asked for 'what sucks'.  Words convey ideas.  When you ask
'what sucks' the idea infered by your reader is, 'he hates the systems and
needs proof of why he hates it,' or 'he is closed minded and has already
decided to hate it.'  When you ask about a systems weaknesses you seem to be
'testing the waters' and people will be more helpfull and the information
you get will be more usefull.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:00:55 -0600
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189

>Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:16:57 -0500
>From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
>Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller
snip
>>  Thanks!"
>>
>It is perfectly acceptable and actually makes more sense to say "thanks"
>AFTER you get the replies, especially when dealing with some of you chaps.
>It's like saying "Grace" BEFORE the meal.  Maybe the meal will require you
>to have your stomach pumped.  I wouldn't be too thankful, then.  (On a
>sidenote, the Old Testament actually teaches to thank the Creator AFTER the
>meal.)
	This is only my opinion & no flames are directed towards anyone.  Written
communication on the net does not carry the same messages we pickup from
verbal communication.  It pays to be careful about offending people.  I
have found it actually DOES pay to say "Thanks" when you ask the question,
after all you are asking people to give up their time to answer a question
that YOU want answered.  If they give you a good answer, then thank them
again.  I am normally  a lurker on this (& other lists), but I have been
here for a fairly long period of time.  This is one of the best lists I am
on.  I constantly amazed at the wealth of knowledge people reveal for the
sake of a polite question.  The best reason to be polite is because you are
, the second best reason is so that people treat you the same way.  If you
follow the second reason long enough you will probably find it becomes the
first reason.  Just a point to ponder.


									Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:09:04 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing

Rob Eaglestone posted:
>
> I have returned.  Expect the unexpected.  More importantly,
> don't expect finished ideas from me.

Hey! Welcome back to the asylum!

Of course, now I'm going to have to watch what
I post. (FYI for the list, Rob and I are in
the same Traveller gaming group)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:55:46 -0500
From: "J. Alan Hatcher" <JHatcher@cslinc.com>
Subject: GURPS and Metrics

	I believe it said in GT that the European versions of GURPS are
published using the metric system.  Can anyone on the list from Europe
confirm this?  If it's true then I suppose it should be possible to acquire
these versions from European distributors.  In the GURPS campaigns I've
played in, we just assumed yards were meters for combat and such.  

		Alan


>Problems with GURPS Traveller:
>
>1. It's not metric.

>Easily solved with a calculator and your average dictionary, which usually
>has conversion tables in it. GURPS is en established game system; they
>shouldn't have to revise everything to conform to Traveller, especially
when
>it can be easily done by the user if desired. Myself, I don't care about
>metric or English..it's a game unit. I adapt.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:13:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Sensors

Another reason to put them on the outside (on a boom in the case of the
Donosev) is to seperate two elements of the sensor.  One element goes,
say, at the rear of the ship and the other goes on a boom at the front. 
This allows better directional sensing.  The boom would also allow you to
vary the configuration for interferometry (though I'm not sure how this
applies to neutrino sensors, do neutrino signals have wavelengths?). 

Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:00:58 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Boycott Clif

This latest nonsense has gone on long enough. Whatever "good" posts Clif has
produced (and I have seen very few) are completely nullified by his
incredibly rude, offensive behavior. In all the time I have been on this
list, I have never seen anyone so offensive and rude. I call on all other
members of the TML to simply refuse to respond further to anything Clif
says, until he takes his troll act elsewhere. I would prefer to see his
posting privledges permanently revoked, but that doesn't seem to be
happening despite his escalation in rudeness. If this situation persists, I
will be unsubscribing, and I suspect I will not be the only one.

Allen

P.S. Please keep in mind that this is not a public forum; this is a private
mailing list for subscribers only. We do not have to tolerate this abuse of
our list; "free speech" is not an issue in a private forum.

I apologize for the non-Traveller content of this message.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #190
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 191



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: Boycott Clif
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Boycott Clif
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: T5 Questions
Re: GURPS Traveller
CML*
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189
Re: CML*
Re: GURPS Traveller problems
Joseph
re: The Professional
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller
The Universe & Harry Morgann
[BITS] Convention News 24/2/99
Re: The Universe & Harry Morgann
Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:39:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

- ---AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>>  But please, make it an optional rule.   I've always found point
based games lead to characters that are too uniform and predictable. <<

The idea that a Traveller "party" should be balanced gives me the
heebee-geebees.  Sounds like old AD&D where you had to have one of
each class in the party.  Yuk.  If I'm running an archeology campaign,
then I want a bunch of characters with the same skills, but differing
capabilities, thereby letting the the PLAYERS' personality differences
come through.

On the opposite side, if we are unsure of what we are going to be
playing (adlib games are my favorite) then it is part of the adventure
to see what the characters turn out to be.  How the skills and stats
come out will determine where the game goes.  I love to see good
players RPing something totally different than they've ever tried
before.  It's a stretch for the Ref, too.  Great fun.  I don't know
that that would necessarily be lost if a point-based system were used
exclusively, but the randomness of the Traveller CharGen system has
surprised and delighted me over the years.

[major snippage]
>> For me, it's just not Traveller without the Traveler character gen
system. <<


Exactly.




==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

                      ICQ 31012781
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:54:52 -0800
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Boycott Clif

Allen Shock wrote:

>This latest nonsense has gone on long enough. Whatever "good" posts Clif has
>produced (and I have seen very few) are completely nullified by his
>incredibly rude, offensive behavior. In all the time I have been on this
>list, I have never seen anyone so offensive and rude. I call on all other
>members of the TML to simply refuse to respond further to anything Clif
>says, until he takes his troll act elsewhere. I would prefer to see his
>posting privledges permanently revoked, but that doesn't seem to be
>happening despite his escalation in rudeness. If this situation persists, I
>will be unsubscribing, and I suspect I will not be the only one.

Well, IMO, there was *one* worse instance: Leroy Guatney's brief membership
a year or two ago. Fortunately, most of the members including myself
shouted him off the list after he annoyed everyone with his pomposity for a
couple months.

Clif here is another animal altogether. He seems to be about 17-19 years
old and suffers from a malady that's all too common in the e-mail world. He
figures since no one will ever actually see him face to face, he can act
however he pleases. So, in effect you have this guy running amok behaving
like a virtual 3-year-old.

Me, I'm just gonna ignore him. He doesn't seem to have anything valuable to
offer anyway. If he continues to assault the list with a dozen belligerant
posts per day, however, we may want to ask the list admin to throw the bum
out.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:54:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Reliably negative towards me.

- --Clif

>Sure, please inform me of how I behave Clif. I'd love to know. I'll suspend
>my *plonk* until you reply. If you're concerned about bandwidth, you can
>send it to me privately.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:12:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Boycott Clif

At 08:54 AM 2/24/99 -0800, you wrote:

>Well, IMO, there was *one* worse instance: Leroy Guatney's brief membership
>a year or two ago. Fortunately, most of the members including myself
>shouted him off the list after he annoyed everyone with his pomposity for a
>couple months.

Mention not that name!  He might come back <shudder>

Actually, Leroy was immortalized in some early drafts of ACQ.  In the
animal section he gets butted by a Denebian Tree-Ox, and when I need a name
for a poisonous vermin, it became the Guatney.

>Clif here is another animal altogether. He seems to be about 17-19 years
>old and suffers from a malady that's all too common in the e-mail world. He
>figures since no one will ever actually see him face to face, he can act
>however he pleases. So, in effect you have this guy running amok behaving
>like a virtual 3-year-old.

In personal e-mail Clif told me enough that I actualy believe he was in the
service (for how long I'm not sure), but then he told me that his life was
the basis for that Harrison Ford movie about the IRA man hiding out in
America, and I gave up in disgust.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:05:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

Thomas Schoene writes:
> > No, a bay has 50 internal spaces, and take up 50 internal spaces, so there
> > is no net saving. (Ie. bays are internal, _not_ "honking big turrets".) 
> > This is while I rule that bay weapons must be in a bay. 
> 
> This has been errata'd, hasn't it?  A 50-ton bay is supposed to take up 20
> spaces (not 50).

Actually, all the information on this is f*cked up.  A 50-ton bay is actually
supposed to take up 10 spaces.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:13:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

>Hmmm....  Young D-Leo boards the ISCV King Richard, and spots his ONE True
>Love (Kate Winslet) boarding as a High Passenger.  Leo dreams of meeting
>her, and showing her that a SOC 3 dweeb can talk her out of her clothes
>just as well as her SOC 10 jerk fiance.  This fantasy continues right to
>the point the medic throws him in the low-sleep berth...
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

Gee, Doug, with that "insider's" scoop, I'd say that you ARE a "Templar
Agent at Large"...  Not that that impresses me, of course.

- --Clif
>
>TravGeekCode:
>tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:17:35 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>I have never been afraid of expressing my oppinion but you did not ask for
>an oppinion.  You asked for 'what sucks'.  Words convey ideas.  When you ask
>'what sucks' the idea infered by your reader is, 'he hates the systems and
>needs proof of why he hates it,' or 'he is closed minded and has already
>decided to hate it.'

No.  "If you had read my original post" (gonna have to come up with an
abbreviation for that, soon:  IYHRMOP) you would have seen that I had said I
was IMPRESSED with it.

> When you ask about a systems weaknesses you seem to be
>'testing the waters' and people will be more helpfull and the information
>you get will be more usefull.

Whatever!  Same diff, to me!
>
>Charles L.

You people act like the Web is made out of eggshells.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:22:28 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: CML*

* That's right. CML. The Clif Mailing List. Welcome to a mailing list that
discusses Clif, and a few other things besides.

I know *I* couldn't be made to shut up if everything I said resulted in a
whole bunch of people talking about me....


While I concede that some of the things Clif has said have been useful, I
find myself pining for Leroy in comparison. Every Digest is full of Clif or
people ranting about his antics.

It is my own opinion that Clif's posts are often ill-considered and rude,
and bear the hallmarks of the over-enthusiastic teenager. I've answered a
couple, but from now I intend to follow a policy of simply ignoring anything
said in an offensive manner, or anything phrased in the "what sucks" style.
I don't intend to answer, to criticise or to even refer to any such posts.
If the gentle in question speaks civilly, I'll answer.

If others do the same then we'll at least not have to read endless
discussion of Clif's latest antics. And Clif will have to learn to speak
civilly to his Traveller brethren, or be ignored. OR become so offensive in
order to get a response  that he'll be removed from the list.




CLIF:

I AM SURE THAT YOU DON'T MEAN ANY HARM. HOWEVER, YOUR MANNER OF
COMMUNICATION IRRITATES MANY PEOPLE ON THE LIST. MAY I HUMBLY SUGGEST THAT
YOU CONVERSE IN A MORE CIVIL MANNER? IT IS SIMPLY A QUESTION OF BEING
POLITE. WHATEVER YOUR TRAVLLER-VERSION PREFERENCE, WE'RE ALL ON THE SAOME
SIDE.

I don't imagine that I'll have much else to say on the subject.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:45:39 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Black ICE wrote:

>> The most recent Russian APC has a 120mm smoothbore. Only difference
>> between it and the ones on their tanks is that the barrel is shorter.
>> That probably makes it more of a target, but on the other hand, it also
>> means that when they have to shoot at tanks, they actually have a
>> chance! :-)
>> 
>If you're referring to the BMP-3, it has a 100mm gun-launcher, capable
>of firing either a conventional round or an ATGM.  Since no FSU 100mm
>round can penetrate the front armor of an M1-series tank, I would expect
>the ATGM to be similarly futile against the front of an M1.  

So manoeuvre for flank shots, if you really must engage the M1s (which
is really the job of your T-90s). On the other hand, the M2 crowd are
going to be really put out if they have to go up against the BMP-3.
 
>(BTW, no
>current FSU/Russian tank carries a 120mm gun.  T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90/T-90+
>tanks carry a 125mm smoothbore gun, which is much less effective than
>the 120mm Rheinmetall gun carried by the M1A1/M1A2, the Leopard 2, and
>(IIRC) the LeClerc, or the 120mm rifled gun on the Challenger series of
>British tanks.

Define effective. That 120mm Rheinmetall gun can't penetrate the armour
on a T-90, even with an APFSDS-DU round.

>ObTrav:  I wonder just what the "Threat Inflation Quotient" is
>concerning Zhodani, Sword World, and Solomani Confederation military
>hardware....

Probably similar to that in the USA today...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:30:01 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tanks (was Re: Bradley vs M113)

Sethkimmel wrote:

>The decided on a slow tank because the Israelis are obsessed with crew
>survival due to their small population base. These tanks have frontally
>mounted engines as extra armor. Of course any frontal arc penetrations (and
>some non-penetrating hits), wreck and/or dismount the engine resulting in a
>mobility kill. 

Of course, if you think that you'll be holding the position after the
battle, a mobility kill gets recovered and repaired.

>The Israelis accept this as they rather lose the vehicle and
>save the crew...This is also the reason that the Merkavas have the famous
>"APC" capability. She has rear crew access doors for re-ammo-ing under fire.
>This is MUCH better than passing rounds down through the TC or loaders' hatch.

For another example, look at the UK's AS90 self-propelled artillery
piece. Ok, different mode of employment - but the rounds are loaded
through the rear doors since it's far quicker that way. The army also
trains to fight off ammo dropped behind the vehicle, with the on-board
stuff as a spare.

>Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
>Imperial grav tanks?

There's bound to be four - mobility; lethality; survivability; and
balanced. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:29:02 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #189

>This is only my opinion & no flames are directed towards anyone.
>Written communication [Hasan snip!] It pays to be careful about
>offending people. [Hasan snip!] Just a point to ponder.


There is much truthi in this, I think. I have yet to be verbally assaulted
by anyone on the TML for any reason, despite a modest amount of posting.

Hmm. I wonder why that could be. Certainly it's not my good looks. ;-)

ObTrav: What are the external dimensions of a standarard Imperial cargo
container (as mentioned in 102 Vehicles)? Is there anything significant
about their looks (i.e., external hooks, grapples, insignia, etc.)?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:43:45 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: CML*

>IT IS SIMPLY A QUESTION OF BEING
>POLITE. WHATEVER YOUR TRAVLLER-VERSION PREFERENCE, WE'RE ALL ON THE SAOME
>SIDE.

You don't seem to get it.  Despite what people think, I WAS NOT taking sides
for or against GURPS.  I had said I was impressed with it and now I wanted
to hear "what sucked" about it.  I was trying to achieve a balanced opinion
of it, plain and simple.  You guys are the ones who take two words, "what
sucks" and instead of answering the question turn it into some kind of
springboard to talk about me and fret about the dangers inherent(?) in the
words "what sucks".  I don't give a hoot whether you talk about me or not.
I'm on this list for information.  If you were on the Space:1999 list (also
filled with Sci-Fi discussion) you would see that my presence there is
altogether different.  This is mostly because the people on that list are
much nicer and not so eager to prove to everyone how smart they are.
Despite what you say to the contrary, a number of you quickly became biased
against me and it continues to this day.  I am subscribed to this list for
information, not for attention, just as I am with the Space:1999 list.  If I
ask a question and I receive answers that fit within the parameters of it,
then the thread will soon be over.  I don't demand answers anymore than I
can force you to click your mouse (what a bizarre excuse!).  If you don't
want to answer, then don't!  If you're a bunch of ninnies to me, than you
can predict what is going to happen.
>
- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:44:38 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller problems

>---Clif <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>> "Sarcasm bites both ways." <
>
>Especially if you have your teeth in backwards!


Heh heh.  Is that an "old gamers" crack?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:54:34 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Joseph

>>This is only my opinion & no flames are directed towards anyone.
>>Written communication [Hasan snip!] It pays to be careful about
>>offending people. [Hasan snip!] Just a point to ponder.
>
>
>There is much truthi in this, I think. I have yet to be verbally assaulted
>by anyone on the TML for any reason, despite a modest amount of posting.
>
>Hmm. I wonder why that could be. Certainly it's not my good looks. ;-)
>

Joseph, you mean I somehow missed you?  You must have an awfully low stealth
signature...  ;^)

Well, I searched my in-box and found two other messages from you where you
answered my questions in a rational fashion, and rather politely, too.  I
could learn something from you.  : )

It all does seem pretty common-sense, doesn't it?  As much of an "equal
opportunity offender" as I have been (some toes are too long), how could I
have missed you?  You weren't an ass.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:51:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: The Professional

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

>Having seen "The Professional" with Natalie Portman, I would have seen Fifth
>Element based on the name Luc Besson.

Jean Reno was a bigger pull in that film.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:03:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:

>Mainly to enable us to print the text in smaller segments.  My printer is more
>reliable if  I print only a few pages at a time.   prinitng a large 40 page
>document takes a long time and if a mistake occurs, I have to reprint the
>whole thing.  I'm new to PDF, can you print it in sections,  I haven't dared
>just push the print buttom and wait.

You should be able to specify the pages printed in the print dialog box.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:01:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

In a message dated 2/23/99 1:56:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
brclif@digital.net writes:
> C'mon, Doug.  I'm sincerely asking you gaming connosewers ( ;^) ) what there
> is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...

1) The broad TLs (but someone already said that).

2) The need to buy soooooo many books to cover the rules that CT/MT used to
have.

3) And this is the killer for me - the lack of a task system. I dislike
modifier driven games and prefer the change the task difficulty option.
GURPS feels clunky to me. Imagine MT as a third generation RPG? Well, GURPS
feels like a second generation game, reworked, formated and updated and
released as a third generation game. It lacks, IMO, a certain elegance and
simplicity. Too many rules.... YMMV of course.

but....

1) GT is a good book and could be run with G:Lite

2) BtC, AR1 and SM are all superb supplements and useable for previous
Traveller editions.

I like the work SJG have done, but I'm not enamoured with GURPS as a
system, which may be a personal thing. However, it isn't a *bad* system,
and appears to work okay.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:37:49 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

 "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>I can see it now: Leonardo as a young ne'er-do-well rogueish character. He
>meets a young, busty redheaded noble girl on a subsidized liner... they fall
>in love. In the process she scorns the man she was meant to marry, a dashing
>noble... then the liner hits a huge comet and many perish as a result of too
>few survival bubbles.

ROTFLOL! Glad I wasn't drinking or I'd have done a Doug(*). ;-)

>Cameron could direct it, it could combine the sensibilities of both Aliens
>and Titanic. Of course, we'd have to hire Celine Dion to do the theme
>song...

Celine Dion-and on -and on -and on -and on.....?

(*) Liquid. Fine Spray. Monitor. Keyboard. You all know the routine. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:41:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Sixth Frontier War - was Re: GURPS Traveller

Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> wrote:

>- ---SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
>> After that spam I vote we take the Imperial Navy and occupy the rest
>of the Sword Worlds. If they resist, nuke em from orbit to be sure.
>>
>> Or we could use mass drivers? <snip Londo/Reifer conversation>

>Again, I apologize.  Yahoo Mail faulted out when I tried to send the
>reply message, so I used my e-mail to send it.  Next thing I know a
>gazzillion posts are showing up.  I was affraid to try any more posts,
>so I just logged off and went to do something else.

>I was an
>accident.

Do we need to know this? Or is the TML turning into a US style chat show? ;-)

>Kind of like that bouncing problem that we had a few months
>ago.  And of course it had to happen with an annoying post. <sigh>

Quick, call off the dogs of war. Stop the fleet! What do you mean they've
already gone? ;-)

Don't worry..... it hadn't been enough posts to be truly annoying.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:55:48 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: The Universe & Harry Morgann

I just heard that the pilot for a sci-fi show to be called "The Universe and
Harry Morgann" is being filmed.

It sounds like a Traveller-type show.  The crew of this ship, called "The
Revenge", has been screwed by somebody.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:46:20 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Convention News 24/2/99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

British Isles Traveller Support will have a small stand at Conpulsion 99
at Edinburgh (UK) at the Pleasence Societies Rooms on 27th/28th Feb

Having only one GM this time BITS will run Space Dogs a T4 demo at
12noon each day and have space for 6 players.  Space Dogs was previosuly
run at GC98.

During the afternoon BITS will also run A GURPS Traveller demo for 6
players running until 6pm.....

Samples of BITS 101 books will be on display and mail orders will be
taken if desired.  BITS membership forms will also be available for
those who wish to join.

Any BITS members in the area we need your help...please turn up if you
can, even to play the games, or come and run one yourself!

Conpulsion 99 is a Scottish convention run by GEAS and more information
can be found at

http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/geas/CONVENTION/


BITS contact:

Richard Talbot - Kincardine, Scotland.
http://www.almac.co.uk/richardt
mailto:richard.talbot@abbadon.sol.co.uk

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- ------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk-------
        BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
                http://www.bits.org.uk/
                 mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises. GURPS is a registered trademark of
Steve Jackson Games, Inc. All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:09:17 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: The Universe & Harry Morgann

Sounds like the captain of the ship is a womanizer, and I kinda like the
fact that most of the crew seems to be female.  : )

- --Clif

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 2:04 PM
Subject: The Universe & Harry Morgann


>I just heard that the pilot for a sci-fi show to be called "The Universe
and
>Harry Morgann" is being filmed.
>
>It sounds like a Traveller-type show.  The crew of this ship, called "The
>Revenge", has been screwed by somebody.
>
>--Clif
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:23:46 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)

Part the First -- Reply to the Original Post

I am often reminded of old saying "an armed society is a polite society"
when reading posts on this list. We are all "armed," in a certain sense,
when it comes to such nettiquette faux pas as trolling, flaming and the
like. By simply avoiding refraining from saying what immediately comes to
mind, I think much misery can be avoided (when misery is defined as a high
noise-to-content ratio on the TML).

It is not what you said or what you meant, but what the other person
*thinks* you meant that counts. Of course, you can't always account for
what other people might think, but you can certainly minimize your risk by
following some simple rules.

Here is a very concise, unbiased webpage on the subject:

http://www.primenet.com/~vez/neti.html

A web search will turn up thousands more like it (my Alta Vista search
turned up 49,635 of them).

Many of the higher-visibility posters who also avoid verbal assault follow
these rules, and it serves *everyone* well (after all, who'd want to be on
the receiving end of an insult someone the likes of Leonard or Anthony
could come up with?).


Part the second -- ObTrav

Where can I find some good, reality-checked figures for fuel consumption
for an int comb (diesel) power plant. I was trying to build an M113 in MT
and kept on coming up with outrageous figures (the .16 MW power plant had a
consumption rate of 10 liters/hour -- at this rate, an M113's
three-hundred-something liter fuel tank would allow it to run for much
longer than it does in the real world).

FFS1 gives different figures, but they also seem suspect (too high, IIRC).
Alas, I have not FFS2.

BTW: I haven't checked GURPS Vehicles 2 ed. yet, either. This is mostly
because of a) laziness, and b) the icky US measurements it uses (personal
preference only, YMMV).

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #191
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 192



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tanks
Re: GURPS Traveller problems
Re: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...
Grav Tanks and FF&S1 (was Re: tanks)
Re: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Freelance Traveler server trubs?
Re:  Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: tanks
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: T5 Questions
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: All sorts of things...
Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:22:42 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: tanks

> The Lancer was an MT design, fully detailed in DGP's 101 Vehicles. I could
> try looking it up after work, if you like. Nasty stats for MT (AF 50 as
> opposed to the Trapida's mere 40, for eg), but maybe just a high-value
> target.

Hmm... actually I am very interested in some info... not necessarily the whole
nine yards (though others here might be).  Alot will vary due to differing
design procedures, but i'm very interested in the displacement (volume) and
the description.  Also the basics, like weaponry.  I know what RCVG says the
main weapon is and the troop capacity.  Just if there are secondary or
tertiary weapons but don't need game info.  Just enough to design a relatively
faithful FF&S conversion.  I appreciate it.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:37:24 EST
From: StevenA201@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller problems

    I do not use GURPS game system, and I bought the GT books just 

	for the background material. I found the text content to be 

	quite good, but there is some problems:


- - Remember: this IS a differeng gaming system.  GURPS had been around a long
time before they picked up the Trav contract.  Some of your objections amount
to, "It's not CT."  Which is true, it's not.  Also, all the problems you
raised are discussed in the G:T book.  A certain annoying person asked "what
sucks" about it; the answer is, it's different.


	1) GT uses alternative background setting. I have been playing 
	Traveller for a long time, and have absolutely no intention of 
	switching into alternative timeline. This means that only those 
	parts of the GT backgroud dealing with pre-rebellion times are 
	relevant to me.


- - As far as I can see (from the books that are already out) the only
difference is the non-Rebellion and non-Virus.  That's really restricted to a
few sidebars.  If you want Dulinor to off Strephon, go for it!  He might still
do it IMTU... (See the intro on p4.)


	2) GURPS uses old measurement system (feet, pound, furlongs per 
	fortnight, etc), and sometimes mixes them with SI-system 
	(kW/cubic feet, etc). Descriptions of OIU measurement units and 
	their SI conversions can still be found in dictionaries, but
	sometimes there is multiple definitions for one measurement 
	unit with different values (English, US and Russian definitions 
	may differ).


- - I agree.  Too bad I live in such a backward country, but here in the US,
most people just get confused by metric units.  People are stubborn.  SJG is a
US company, and they're publishing for a (mostly) US market.  I guess they had
to compromise.  (See the sidebar on p13.)


	3) GURPS copied the idea of technology levels form Traveller,
	but uses different scale. In GURPS Traveller they replaced the 
	original Traveller Tech Levels with their own versions, thus 
	making it harder to use old Traveller material with GT.


- - I have long suspected that GURPS borrowed tech levels from Trav.  It is true
that G:T TL is incompatable with CT TL.  But then again, it's compatable with
the hundreds of GURPS books already published.  I guess they had to
compromise.  (See the conversion chart on p107.)


Also, to reply to AveNelso:

    I have the feeling that if stats

    were point based in Traveller everyone would end up with a SOC score of
either

    2 or 12--I mean unless you're noble, what's the point wasting points on
SOC.

    For me, it's just not Traveller without the Traveler character gen system.

- - That's not the case in my PbeM.  We have a minor noble (Status 2 = SOC 11)
and four ordinary people (Status 0 = SOC 7 maybe.)  What you're describing is
called (among gamers) "munchkinism."  It's true, designed characters can be
optimized, and some people (mostly kids) enjoy winning more than they enjoy
role-playing.  But most of my players are over 25, and have outgrown that kind
of behavior.   Over on rec.games.frp.gurps, they discuss munchkinism all the
time.  The answer, usually, is that kids under 12 should stick to D+D.
Subtlety is for grownups.

In GURPS, Status and Wealth and Reputation are separate items; so instead of
having a flat "SOC 9," you could be a rich merchant (high Wealth), or a poor
noble (high Status), or even a penniless drifter who is hailed as a hero (high
Reputation).  All of these might be "SOC 9," but they are very different
social locations.
  --S

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:39:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 

> Where can I find some good, reality-checked figures for fuel consumption
> for an int comb (diesel) power plant. I was trying to build an M113 in MT
> and kept on coming up with outrageous figures (the .16 MW power plant had a
> consumption rate of 10 liters/hour -- at this rate, an M113's
> three-hundred-something liter fuel tank would allow it to run for much
> longer than it does in the real world).
> 
> FFS1 gives different figures, but they also seem suspect (too high, IIRC).
> Alas, I have not FFS2.
> 

FFS2 gives .25 m^3/hr/MW for an regular and Improved IC, for your .16 MW
plant, that comes out to 40 l/hr. The Advanced IC has .20 m^3/Hr/MW,
giving 32 l/hr. With a 300l fuel tank that gets you about 8-10 hours of
running time. Since I don;t know what the RW figures are, I don't know
if this is realistic or not.

Sadly, none of the extant systems really model RW engines well, because
the model's too coarse. Are we talking about diesel, gasoline, ethanol
powered? Fuel Injected or carburetted? Normal, turbo- or supercharged
aspiration? On the road or off road? Heavy or light vehicle?

All of these factors drastially affect fuel consumption. I could
probably design several different RW powerplants and vehicles, all with
the same nominal power output, that would all have different fuel
consumption.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:10:08 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:

> If anything, I was trying
>to express my exceptance of Dough,......

Did you 'knead' to turn this into a personal insult? ;-) <grin> <joke>

- ----
Sorry, I couldn't resist. THEY told me to do it. Serve the computer. He's
your friend, oh yes she is! Eiiie Cthulhu Ptargmigan, sorry Phtagn .....
dribble.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:50:24 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...

... for MegaTraveller? Does one exist? I would like to re-engineer the
Astrin and the Trepida -- aka Intrepid -- into more believable designs
(i.e., an APC that isn't 135 cubic meters in volume).

Or should I just chuck the whole thing and just build designs using other
sources and "translate" them into MegaTraveller terms?

Any advice (besides drop MT -- I already use FUDGE for task resolution ;-))?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:53:52 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Grav Tanks and FF&S1 (was Re: tanks)

Hello,
>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: tanks
...
>> >Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the various
>> >Imperial grav tanks?
...
>Except we're not talking bout grav tanks, but ground tanks.  Egg shaped tanks
>would be kind of silly for TL-8 and tracks wouldn't it? :-) 

  What part of "various Imperial grav tanks" do you not understand? :)  FWIW,
I think the MT all-round armour design step is third-rate, as any thesis that
supports grav tanks simply fails to address ground-based suspensions and the
(historical) vehicles they create (i.e., M1's, T-72's, M-113's, T-34's, etc).

>FF&S takes a much more believable approach by allowing you to slope and vary
>the armor.  :-P 

  Yeah, but I'll probably stick with Striker and make the best parts of FF&S1
reverse compatible. FF&S1 is, IMHO, a _very_ good book; technology-wise, it's
also pretty much a campaign-design sourcebook, whether you want cyberpunk, a
2300 AD clone, or any of the myriad Trav worlds at any point in their histories.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:52:14 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)

It starts with a Talmudic quote.  The Talmud is supposed to be commentary on
the Torah (Law of Moses; first five books of the Bible).  The Torah teaches
exactly the opposite of "When thou enter a city, abide by its customs."  It
says, "you must not obey the laws of the gentiles."

One reason I don't read the Talmud.

- --Clif

>Here is a very concise, unbiased webpage on the subject:
>
>http://www.primenet.com/~vez/neti.html
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:56:44 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>"Clif" <brclif@digital.net> wrote:
>
>> If anything, I was trying
>>to express my exceptance of Dough,......
>
>Did you 'knead' to turn this into a personal insult? ;-) <grin> <joke>
>
That was a typo.
>----
>Sorry, I couldn't resist. THEY told me to do it. Serve the computer. He's
>your friend, oh yes she is! Eiiie Cthulhu Ptargmigan,

They have white, stupid, Alaskan pheasants in Call of Cthulhu?

> sorry Phtagn .....
>dribble.
>
>Dom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:10:05 -0600
From: "Jeff Groteboer" <jeffg@ionstorm.com>
Subject: Freelance Traveler server trubs?

Will the owner of Freelance Traveler please email me off-list? I'm
having trouble reaching your site.

http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller

My browser tells me I'm connecting to 209.57.111.42, then after a delay
it times-out.

Thanks in advance.


THE LOCALIZER
jeffg@ionstorm.com

People are more easily led than driven.  (Jewish Proverb)



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca [SMTP:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]
> Sent:	24 February 1999 13:54
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Grav Tanks and FF&S1 (was Re: tanks)
> 
> Hello,
> >From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> >Subject: Re: tanks
> ...
> >> >Ob Trav: What are the different design philosophies between the
> various
> >> >Imperial grav tanks?
> ...
> >Except we're not talking bout grav tanks, but ground tanks.  Egg
> shaped tanks
> >would be kind of silly for TL-8 and tracks wouldn't it? :-) 
> 
>   What part of "various Imperial grav tanks" do you not understand? :)
> FWIW,
> I think the MT all-round armour design step is third-rate, as any
> thesis that
> supports grav tanks simply fails to address ground-based suspensions
> and the
> (historical) vehicles they create (i.e., M1's, T-72's, M-113's,
> T-34's, etc).
> 
> >FF&S takes a much more believable approach by allowing you to slope
> and vary
> >the armor.  :-P 
> 
>   Yeah, but I'll probably stick with Striker and make the best parts
> of FF&S1
> reverse compatible. FF&S1 is, IMHO, a _very_ good book;
> technology-wise, it's
> also pretty much a campaign-design sourcebook, whether you want
> cyberpunk, a
> 2300 AD clone, or any of the myriad Trav worlds at any point in their
> histories.
> 
>         Yours truly,
>                 Steven Hudson
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:47:53 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re:  Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

For those who want specific body parts for damage, GURPS uses this, a d20
IIRC.  Also, a system call "Millenium's End", from Chameleon Eclectic has 25
'hit areas' (including leading and following upper and lower arms) - *and*
it comes with a clear plastic pattern which you lay over a silhouette of the
target in case you miss a specific aim point (ie between the eyes).  In
fact, depending on how much the 'attack roll' is missed by (and the exact
orientation of the overlay) you can still hit your target somewhere.
Silhouettes are provided for standing, crouching, running and prone
positions bipeds - plus a dog!
I think Palladium use a d100 system for damage - I can't look it up at the
moment, but I'll check and let you know...

Keep the Flame!


Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:31:57 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

Dude!  That is so cool!  That is EXACTLY what I want to program into my
combat simulator!

- --Clif



>For those who want specific body parts for damage, GURPS uses this, a d20
>IIRC.  Also, a system call "Millenium's End", from Chameleon Eclectic has
25
>'hit areas' (including leading and following upper and lower arms) - *and*
>it comes with a clear plastic pattern which you lay over a silhouette of
the
>target in case you miss a specific aim point (ie between the eyes).  In
>fact, depending on how much the 'attack roll' is missed by (and the exact
>orientation of the overlay) you can still hit your target somewhere.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:51:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Actually, Leroy was immortalized in some early drafts of ACQ.  In the
>animal section he gets butted by a Denebian Tree-Ox, and when I need a name
>for a poisonous vermin, it became the Guatney.

And yes, on behalf of BITS I did request that this was changed, even though
it was kind of tempting..... so tempting.....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:40:09 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: tanks

>> The Lancer was an MT design, fully detailed in DGP's 101 Vehicles. I could

[snippity]

>Hmm... actually I am very interested in some info... not necessarily the whole
>nine yards  [snip]


DGP's figures are suspect*, but here is the pertinant info on the Lancer:

Disp=20(!!!), for a volume of 270 kl.
Config=1SL; streamlined wedge.
Armor=50G, equal to 80 cm hard steel.
Mass Unloaded=251 tons, Loaded=258 tons
RPY-15 Rapid Pulse Fusion Gun x 1
TL-13 Beam Laser (25 MW power req.) x 1 (maybe x 2, since there are 3 gunners).
Crew=5 (driver, commander, 3 gunners)
Passengers=25

*One of the main gripes I have about 101 Vehicles are that the vehicles
described therein are just too big for their corresponding illustrations
(and in many cases, their described functions).

For example, the Lancer, if one is to believe the illustration, looks to be
about 12 m long and 2 m high. On top of this is a turret about 5 m long and
1 m high. Pulling numbers out of the air and I will assume these two boxes
are 2/3 as wide as they are high. Doing some quick math with lots of
rounding up, you still get a total vehicle volume of only about 210 kl.
And the Lancer is not even a box, but a wedge (with correspondingly less
volume).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:44:50 +0000
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

>>This has been errata'd, hasn't it?  A 50-ton bay is supposed to take
up 20
>>spaces (not 50).

>Not that I know of. Last time I checked, a 50-ton bay takes up 50
internal
>spaces, and can mount 50 spaces of weapons.

The G:T errata states that the last column on the TURRET AND BAY TABLES
on pp 151 sould read "Internal Spaces".  This now cleary states that
Bays use 20 internal spaces and turrets use one internal space.

The ARMAMENT TABLE on page 156 shows that the bay holds a 50 space bay
weapon. The text states that: "Bay weapons may occupy an entire bay or
take up space in the hull".

So fully movable (360 degree mount) bays are 20 spaces inside the hull,
and 30 spaces outside. Limited (45 degree swivel mount) movement bays
use 50 internal spaces.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:15:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

At 06:37 PM 2/24/99 +0000, you wrote:

>ROTFLOL! Glad I wasn't drinking or I'd have done a Doug(*). ;-)

>(*) Liquid. Fine Spray. Monitor. Keyboard. You all know the routine. ;-)

Ah.  Immortality at last.

wonderful.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:13:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

At 07:51 PM 2/24/99 +0000, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>
>>Actually, Leroy was immortalized in some early drafts of ACQ.  In the
>>animal section he gets butted by a Denebian Tree-Ox, and when I need a name
>>for a poisonous vermin, it became the Guatney.
>
>And yes, on behalf of BITS I did request that this was changed, even though
>it was kind of tempting..... so tempting.....

But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:18:25 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

Me again!

I've just had a quick look at my book collection and found three systems
that use percentile hit location systems; Palladium's "Role Playing Game",
FASA's "Renegade Legion: Legionnaire" and Tri-Tac System's "FTL:2448" - Nb;
this does not mean they have 100 hit locations!

If anyone's interested, I might even dig out and check such classics as
Twilight:2000 and The Morrow Project...

And if I can keep this darn cat off my keyboard!!!

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:25:19 -0000
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

To: Doug Berry - *I* liked Caddilacs & Dinosaurs, but then I think that rain
is wet, so who am I to judge?

To: Alan Hatcher - my 1986 3rd Edition (English, or 'UK-ish' to practically
all the rest of the world now) GURPS Basic Set is in Imperial measurements
(that's "feet-and-inches" for all you young pups!)

To: Clif - as I understand it, you get Drafted (in T4) if you fail to enlist
in any service, to ensure that you don't have to start with only a (very)
few skills - I think.  OTOH, lots of people with other trades get drafted in
the event of a major war, so I could be wrong (uh-oh, that's not a smart
thing to say, is it??)

To: Sword Worlder - I don't normally comment on other peoples' typo's as I
make too many myself, but "I was an accident" has just got to go down in
history as a *real* classic.

Re; what's good or bad about GURPS, I must admit I quite like a system which
means I actually get to *play* a character I spend time creating, and I am
sure it wouldn't be too hard to add the advantages/disadvantages idea to
"pure" Traveller products - and they certainly help with rOLE playing rather
than rOLL playing.
Still, variety is the spice of battle, as they say...


Keep the Flame!

Jeff R.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:26:31 -0600 ()
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Diesel power plants (was Re: Joseph)

>>Where can I find some good, reality-checked figures for
>>fuel consumption for an int comb (diesel) power plant. [sic]

[snipped Bruce's comments]

Thanks Bruce. I think these figures are about what it they were in FFS1,
IIRC, so maybe it's not so far off. The operational range of the M113 seems
to indicate that it has about a 7-8 hour duration, so maybe it isn't *too*
far off after all.

I'll have to scrap the MT pwrplnt figures, though. Interestingly, before
they errataed the MT fuel consumption figures (because they were "too
inefficient") a .16 MW improved int comb pwrplnt. used about 50
liters/hour. Hmm.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:33:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

I've played with several combat systems that included detailed hit
locations systems.  My conclusion is that they seem to slow down most
combats without adding that much.  

Among the better systems in total were HarnMaster, Millennium's End, and
CORPS.  Even these had problems, with ME's plastic sheets suffering all
sorts of abuse and they were expensive to replace!

What I prefer is general body hits with increasing levels of difficulty if
you wish to target a specific location.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

"We were the perfect partners.
Her life was out of a Norman Rockwell painting;
mine was out of a Tim Burton movie."
                          -"Law & Order"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:39:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:51:11 +0000, SD Mooney wrote:

> "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> >Actually, Leroy was immortalized in some early drafts of ACQ.  In the
> >animal section he gets butted by a Denebian Tree-Ox, and when I need a name
> >for a poisonous vermin, it became the Guatney.
> 
> And yes, on behalf of BITS I did request that this was changed, even though
> it was kind of tempting..... so tempting.....

It's gone.  We picked on you and Andy instead.



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

    "Smooth as an android's bottom, eh Data?" -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:48:25 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

SD Mooney wrote:

> > what there is about GURPS Traveller that you don't like...

> 1) The broad TLs (but someone already said that).

Agreed, but fixable with a decimal system (TL7.2) or, my preference,
just use Traveller TL's
 
> 2) The need to buy soooooo many books to cover the rules that CT/MT used to
> have.

Maybe, but I suspect you'd be Ok with GT, GLite, and your current
collection of Traveller books.
 
> 3) And this is the killer for me - the lack of a task system. 

BINGO! This is one of my two big complaints about GURPS in general.

> I dislike  modifier driven games and prefer the change the task difficulty > option.

I tried to get discussion leading up to this topic here a couple of
months ago and we had a few posts, but I got busy elsewhere and didn't
follow things up.  

IAC, what do you think of the following idea for a GURPS task
system...particularly a system for GT?

Task Task
Mod  Level
- -----------
 +6  Easy
 +3  Routine
  0  Normal
 -3  Difficult
 -6  Formidable
 -9  Staggering
- -12  Hopeless

Determine the difficulty of a Task and add the modifier to the
appropriate Skill or Attribute and other modifiers, then roll against
3d6.

Example:  

1.  Ricardo (skill 14) attempts to gain control of an air-raft
spinning out of control. 

	[Formidable, Grav-Craft, Immediate]

	14 - 6 = 8, Success on a roll of <= 8 (~25% chance of success)

2.  Jaren (skill 10) attempts a simple landing of an air-raft

	[Routine, Grav-Craft, Immediate]

	10 + 3 = 13, Success on a roll <= 13 (~83% chance of success)

3.  Kelly (skill 11) attempts to pick a simple lock in the dark with
an average toolset.

	[Routine, Lockpicking, 2 min]
	[ mods: -2 levels for the dark..task becomes Difficult]

	11 - 3 = 8, Success on a roll <= 10 (~25% chance of success)

The modifiers could be different, of course, and they could be taken
from the die side rather than the skill side, but my gut feeling is
that this would work.

Now, my other big problem with the GURPS system is the point based
character generation system. This is entirely a matter of taste.
Although it seems perfectly serviceable (given proper GM supervision)
it just isn't a system *I* prefer.  The fix for that is to develop
some Traveller style Career systems for GT...and that is a Staggering
task! ;->

Eris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #192
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 193



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: T5 Questions
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: All sorts of things...
Imperial Cargo Containers
Tree-Oxen
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Those who support delusions
GURPS Task system
Re: T5 Questions
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: Boycott Clif
Re: GURPS Traveller
[Debate] Dilgaadin 2 resp The Old Marquis 1
[Debate] Gallatin 3 resp Prometheus 1, Dilgaadin 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:48:24 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

>I've played with several combat systems that included detailed hit
>locations systems.  My conclusion is that they seem to slow down most
>combats without adding that much.

Sounds like you've never been to JRTC (maybe NTC, too?) in the Army.  They
give you a first aid pouch at the beginning of the conflict with a sealed
card in it telling you where your wound is located, how it debilitates you,
and what will happen to you if you aren't treated in a certain period of
time.

My S-2 officer let two enemy OPFOR that a certain crazy specialist had
captured (not me) expired from their wounds without interrogating them, per
SOP.  I believe their wounds kept them from running, but they could shoot
people if they got hold of a weapon.

- --Clif

>
>Among the better systems in total were HarnMaster, Millennium's End, and
>CORPS.  Even these had problems, with ME's plastic sheets suffering all
>sorts of abuse and they were expensive to replace!
>
>What I prefer is general body hits with increasing levels of difficulty if
>you wish to target a specific location.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>
>"We were the perfect partners.
>Her life was out of a Norman Rockwell painting;
>mine was out of a Tim Burton movie."
>                          -"Law & Order"
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:59:31 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector, GURPS, Astrogation, Role Playing

	Rob had a very good idea in the respect of the websector.  I for one
would love to be a part of this type of project, and find it very
interesting indeed.  You can count in my support for one system at
least.  This will end up something like the HIWG project in the end, but
a little more spread out.

	One other item I would like to add my two credits worth into.  I think
that the 'basic' interface for the sites on this 'jump ring' should form
a similar appearance.  One of the best options that I can think of off
my head is a frames based 'front end'.  Each site conforming to a given
specification in regards to the frame's location, size, color, content,
etc.  would help in giving the navigational tour a more modernized and
uniform appearance as you might think you would find in a library data
handbook, or TAS membership brochure.

	Think of how they transferred information in Star Trek TNG.  They used
data pads which were custom configured for the application.  They were
all the same data pad type, with the same basic functions (kinda like
windows or MacOS), just the content is a little different held in the
main frame.

	I have cooked up an example of what I am talking about if anyone is
interested in looking at the site.  Again this is only an example, and
could be changed anyway we would see fit.  The example is at:
http://ww3.ncweb.com/scspieker/websector/index.html

Thanks,
Let's get this project moving!

Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:03:34 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> I'd also insult your taste in sf, but from what I've read, you haven't read
> enough for you to have formed any taste.

ROFLMAO!

The comebacks are so good, I'm almost tempted to stop filtering Clif's post
to my trash folder.

Almost.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:56:15 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Sword Worlder wrote:

> >>  But please, make it an optional rule.   I've always found point
> based games lead to characters that are too uniform and predictable. <<

> The idea that a Traveller "party" should be balanced gives me the
> heebee-geebees.  Sounds like old AD&D where you had to have one of
> each class in the party.  Yuk.  If I'm running an archeology campaign,
> then I want a bunch of characters with the same skills, but differing
> capabilities, thereby letting the the PLAYERS' personality differences
> come through.

I agree, completely!  

But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
to succeed, create them ourselves.  

The character generation process needs to generate numbers for skills
and attributes (personally, I'm not a fan of only having 4...and 2 of
them being *so* important) that work with the rest of the system. As I
posted earlier, creating good Career style systems is a Staggering
task, but not an impossible one.

Eris,
 a heretic where ever he goes! ;->

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:06:15 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> Please.  I don't need your assitance to remember what I dislike about a
> system.  Want complaints about Twilight:2000 1st edition?  They're still
> fresh in my mind.

I can never forget my complaints.  "The Anti-Gunner" was a Soviet Intel
officer character I had that broke 4 rifles in a row, each the first time
he tried to fire it.

Ob. Trav, are hi-TL energy weapons idiot proof?
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:01:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Eris reddoch wrote:
> 

> Example:
> 
> 1.  Ricardo (skill 14) attempts to gain control of an air-raft
> spinning out of control.
> 
>         [Formidable, Grav-Craft, Immediate]
> 
>         14 - 6 = 8, Success on a roll of <= 8 (~25% chance of success)

Jeez Eris...you sure made it seem a LOT harder than that at the
time...;-)


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:08:54 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> >You're a Leonardo DaVinci of the Traveller community.
>
> Damn!  I was aiming to be the Leonardo DiCaprio of the traveller community.

If you're willing to halve your IQ and learn to acy very badly, you can have
the
title.  If you complain about everyone's responses to your posts after you
expressly act for them, you can be DiCapprio as his retarded character in
Whats Eating Gilbert Grape.

So, are you going to work in a giant bronze horse?

;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:19:36 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Thomas Schoene wrote:

> This becomes much easier with experience and templates.  I can do a basic
> character within about half an hour and the process forces you to produce a
> personality to go with the stats.  That's about the same as rolling
> extended chargen for a CT player and them piecing a background together out
> of the various rolls.  The nice thing, IMHO, is that the system tends to
> produce characters with more personality and plot "hooks" than the classic
> system.

Thats a fair criticism of Traveller chargen, in general.  And why I much
prefer extended chargen.  I made some stuff for extended Naval T4 chargen
and still have drafts of how to do extended chargen for all of the basic
T4 careers.  One more thing in the "To Do" list.

> > The usefulness of the stats isn't in proportion to their cost.  Would
> > you rather have strength or dex in a modern game?  Which costs more?
> > Similarly, GURPS skills are related as "hard" "easy" etc., and cost
> > appropriately.  I'd rather see them cost according to their in-game
> > _usefulness_, whatever that may be.
>
> This is a fairly common criticism, and one I can sympathize with.  Low ST
> characters abound in high-tech campaigns because ST isn't worth the points,
> even though modern weight training may make high ST relatively easy to come
> by.  I'm not sure what to do about this.  Maybe halving the cost of ST and
> HT might work?

Hmm.  Thats interesting.  It is certainly demonstrably easier to increase your
Strength than to increase your Intelligence, so there is a good case for this.
In a SF campaign, there are actually good reasons to have a high strength:
minimize effect of muscle atrophy in Zero-G, tolerate higher G environments
(different than tolerating Gs from acceleration which has more to do with
Head-to-Heart distance than muscle mass).

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:21:05 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

Jeffrey Rowse said:

>Re; what's good or bad about GURPS, I must admit I quite like a system
which
>means I actually get to *play* a character I spend time creating, and I am
>sure it wouldn't be too hard to add the advantages/disadvantages idea to
>"pure" Traveller products - and they certainly help with rOLE playing rather
>than rOLL playing.
>Still, variety is the spice of battle, as they say...


Yep. Ultimately it comes down to choice. Some people enjoy playing a
character that the dice gave them, while others enjoy characters they
carefully crafted.

I personally think that T5 should include both in its character creation
system. I've always thought that the random character creation helped with
the "feel" of Traveller, and to a large extent I've missed it, expecially
with G:Traveller (the article in Pyramid was a nice starting point to coming
up with a new one).

On the other hand, I also enjoy crafting characters from time to time, and I
wouldn't mind if the option was open in a preplaytested fashion. Ultimately
I'd like to see two systems that come out ultimately balanced. You can point
build a character that's a little above "character" average, or you can roll
and get one that's in between.

I fundamentally disagree with your argument that advantages and
disadvantages help with roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying. In fact, such
systems ultimately open themselves up to munchkinizing. "Welp, I've got this
blind, albino leprous dwarf with one eye, but check out his hand to hand
skill!" That's not to say the system is broken, but that ROLLplayers can
find a way to ply their trade in any system. Then again, so can ROLEplayers.
;^)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:18:34 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Imperial Cargo Containers

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:
>ObTrav: What are the external dimensions of a standarard Imperial cargo
>container (as mentioned in 102 Vehicles)? Is there anything significant
>about their looks (i.e., external hooks, grapples, insignia, etc.)?

The full datasheet can be found in MegaTraveller Journal#3. 

From memory (I designed it years ago), 54 kL volume, 11 to 2 tonnes mass
(varies with tech level), and about 9kCr. (This is for the sealed model.) 
Dimensions were 3x3x6 metres.

I will add the description (and design) to revision 2 of 101 Starships and
102 Vehicles.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:11:25 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Tree-Oxen

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
> need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
> Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
> --

Ok, what kind of trees?

- --
Evyn...

Desertus Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:14:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Eris reddoch writes:
> SD Mooney wrote:

> > 3) And this is the killer for me - the lack of a task system. 
> 
> BINGO! This is one of my two big complaints about GURPS in general.

Um...might I point out that mechanically speaking, there really isn't any
fundamental difference between task-based systems and modifier-based systems? 
Its just a question of the difference in the signs.  If you really want to you
can swap the numbers out -- instead of normal success requiring rolling under
your skill on 3d6, have it require 21+ on 3d6+skill.  You have to muck with the
critical success/failure system slightly, but otherwise its statistically
identical.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:29:43 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:

> If anyone's interested, I might even dig out and check such classics as
> Twilight:2000 and The Morrow Project...

The Morrow Project is also percentile.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:23:31 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:
>... for MegaTraveller? Does one exist? I would like to re-engineer the
>Astrin and the Trepida -- aka Intrepid -- into more believable designs
>(i.e., an APC that isn't 135 cubic meters in volume).
>
>Or should I just chuck the whole thing and just build designs using other
>sources and "translate" them into MegaTraveller terms?
>
>Any advice (besides drop MT -- I already use FUDGE for task resolution
>;-))?

I did an extrensive one years ago. Should still be in the missouri
archives. If not email me next week and I'll try to dig it out. (It's on
an old disk, and I don't have time to dig it out this week. In the words
of my friend Mike, I'm busier than a mouse in a blender.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:20:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

steve daniels writes:
> 
> I can never forget my complaints.  "The Anti-Gunner" was a Soviet Intel
> officer character I had that broke 4 rifles in a row, each the first time
> he tried to fire it.
> 
> Ob. Trav, are hi-TL energy weapons idiot proof?

Shrug.  Depends on your definition of 'idiot'.  In GURPS traveller, a
well-maintained energy weapon will have a malfunction of Ver., which means in
order to malfunction you need to critically fail on your attack roll (slightly
under 2% chance for most people) and _then_ fail an additional skill check. 
For someone halfway trained with a gun (skill 12, say), it works out to around
0.5%; someone totally untrained (using default skill of 6) will fail around
4.5% of the time.  If this fails the weapon is jammed...and isn't horribly
difficult to unjam.

However, a sufficiently talented idiot can break any weapon system.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:09:35 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Those who support delusions

In message <l03110703b2f8a86a461c@[195.102.200.166]>, SD Mooney
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes
>Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <l03110702b2f63f05f57b@[195.102.200.254]>, SD Mooney
>><dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes
>>>>Isn't a tomato a fruit?  ;-)
>>>A carrot is under EU law.
>>Only when the Portuguese make jam out of it.
>
>Yes. And? ;-)
>
Unlike some parts of the world the EU has some (often extensive)
consumer protection legislation - no Maxwell House 13 oz pounds of
coffee over here.  The product described as "jam" is made from fruit and
certain amounts of added sugar, but the Portuguese make something
similar from carrots (ugh!) so to comply with the regulations about the
contents of jam etc, carrots are fruit.

Likewise some people are upset that British chocolate (which often seems
as though it has never been near a cocoa bean, and consists in large
part of vegetable and milk fats) is called chocolate, and they want it
called "vegelate".  Continental chocolate contains much higher levels of
cocoa butter and is much richer - I can only get through 3 bars of
Suchard dark chocolate before feeling queasy, whereas I'm sure I could
attempt a 1 kg Cadbury's in one sitting.

HTH!
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:34:11 PST
From: "Clay _" <baalan@hotmail.com>
Subject: GURPS Task system

>IAC, what do you think of the following idea for a GURPS task
>system...particularly a system for GT?
>Task Task
>Mod  Level
>- -----------
> +6  Easy
> +3  Routine
>  0  Normal
> -3  Difficult
> -6  Formidable
> -9  Staggering
> -12  Hopeless
>Determine the difficulty of a Task and add the modifier to the
>appropriate Skill or Attribute and other modifiers, then roll against
>3d6.
>Eris

This is very similar to the system I use for my GURPS Traveller game.  I 
also use a chart with the same numbers to determine the degree of 
success (i.e. making a roll by 3 is an extra degree of success while 
making the roll by 6 is two extra degrees of success).


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:38:41 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Questions

SD Mooney said:

<Concerning the subsidized liner known as Titanic>

>ROTFLOL! Glad I wasn't drinking or I'd have done a Doug(*). ;-)


I'm glad you weren't. Hate it when the keys stick.

>Celine Dion-and on -and on -and on -and on.....?


Yep... "Near... far... wherever you arrrrre!" One in the same.

>(*) Liquid. Fine Spray. Monitor. Keyboard. You all know the routine. ;-)


Yep.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

- ---John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:

> >>This has been errata'd, hasn't it?  A 50-ton bay is supposed to take
> >>up 20 spaces (not 50).
> 
> >Not that I know of. Last time I checked, a 50-ton bay takes up 50
> >internal spaces, and can mount 50 spaces of weapons.
> 
> The G:T errata states that the last column on the TURRET AND BAY TABLES
> on pp 151 sould read "Internal Spaces".  This now cleary states that
> Bays use 20 internal spaces and turrets use one internal space.

Better re-print a copy then. I think your data is out of date. I just
looked at the most current one, dated Feb 9, 1999, and it clearly
calls, in that same page, for the bays to be 50 internal spaces.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:44:00 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Boycott Clif

>>Well, IMO, there was *one* worse instance: Leroy Guatney's brief
membership
>>a year or two ago. Fortunately, most of the members including
>
>Mention not that name!  He might come back <shudder>


Isn't that only if you say his name in the mirror three times fast at
midnight?

LeroyGuatneyLeroyGuatneyLeroyGuatney!

<Mommy, I'm scared...>

>Actually, Leroy was immortalized in some early drafts of ACQ.  In the
>animal section he gets butted by a Denebian Tree-Ox, and when I need a name
>for a poisonous vermin, it became the Guatney.


Tears are literally coming down my cheeks. Denebian Tree-Ox... Sometimes the
humor just sneaks up on you.

>In personal e-mail Clif told me enough that I actualy believe he was in the
>service (for how long I'm not sure), but then he told me that his life was
>the basis for that Harrison Ford movie about the IRA man hiding out in
>America, and I gave up in disgust.


...

Speechless.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:42:51 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> > Example:
> >
> > 1.  Ricardo (skill 14) attempts to gain control of an air-raft
> > spinning out of control.
> >
> >         [Formidable, Grav-Craft, Immediate]
> >
> >         14 - 6 = 8, Success on a roll of <= 8 (~25% chance of success)
> 
> Jeez Eris...you sure made it seem a LOT harder than that at the
> time...;-)

That's my job, Bruce. ;->  This comes from an event in the PBEM I'm
running. Someone planted an explosive in the air-raft the party was
flying. It blew out one of the 4 grav-units and threw the raft into a
nose down spin at 1000m.

And the task in the game *was* harder than a simple Formidable roll,
smoke from the fire and having one quadrant of the raft blown out made
the task Staggering instead of Formidable for one thing. If you want a
task breakdown here's what Ricardo was up against...overcome surprise
(Difficult) at the explosion to act quickly, then control the nose
down spin (Staggering), then get control of the drop in altitude
(Formidable) and *then* get the raft over the trees into that open
field (Difficult), and he only had so many chances at each task before
time ran out. He almost *didn't* get control of the spin, but I won't
tell you how close a thing that was...or if I had to fudge any rolls.
;->

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:47:04 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [Debate] Dilgaadin 2 resp The Old Marquis 1

The Old Marquis advocates the status quo, dismissing the problems
of unrepresentative and unresponsive Member World governments
with the attitude 'so move!' - or perhaps it would be more
appropriate to characterize it as 'love it or leave it'.  It is
saddening to think that anyone could be so ill-informed of the
state of affairs in our Imperium to believe that this is a viable
solution for everyone.  True, passage off-world - off any world -
is only Cr1000.  True, the Ministry of Colonization is supportive
of all efforts to build new lives and new worlds.  But
colonization is not for everyone, and there are worlds that
control immigration, and worlds that control emigration.  And it
is the Member Worlds that control ingress and egress to the
starports - there is no requirement that a Member World admit any
specific person to their territory, and the Starport Authority
has neither the jurisdiction nor the will to compel planetary
authorities to permit any of its own citizens to enter the
extraterritoriality zone of the starport.  Clearly, the
admonition to vote with one's feet is simplistic, to the point of
being useless and wrong.

This is followed by a comparison of Imperial culture with that of
the surrounding states.  In the case of the non-human cultures,
The Old Marquis ignores the fundamentally different psychology
that accompanies the fundamentally different physiology, and
reduces each race to a caricature - a technique favored by
racists throughout the Imperium, and by the 'government' of the
rebellious Solomani Sphere.  As to the human cultures of the
Zhodani and the Solomani, it is clear to anyone even minimally
schooled in psychology that their actions are less those of a
tyrannical minority than of a culture that is largely unwilling
to face change - they hide behind conformity, and claim that
non-conformity is 'treason' or 'illness' or any of a whole host
of other negative behaviors.  Would The Old Marquis have us
follow them into fear of change?  Change is not to be feared; it
is to be embraced when needed, and carefully considered always.

Then, the straw man of a controlling Imperium is raised - an
interfering one, rather than a responsive one.  The purpose of
the reconstruction of the Imperium is not to control the worlds,
but to act as a check on them - to prevent them from oppressing
their own people, and to ensure that the benefits of Imperial
membership come to the world.  Cultural uniformity is not the
aim, nor is it to be desired, except to the extent that it may be
a natural outgrowth of exposure to offworld influences.  But that
is all that we speak of: influence.  Never has the Imperium
directly ruled worlds; never shall this be its purpose.  The
cultural diversity that The Old Marquis celebrates is indeed one
of our strengths; there is nothing to be gained by attempting to
control it.  The new Imperial mission is to respond to the
expressed needs and desires of the people; not to dictate them.
It is only in this manner that the Imperium can overcome its
weaknesses, and promote its own unity.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:47:00 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [Debate] Gallatin 3 resp Prometheus 1, Dilgaadin 1

Prometheus paints a dark picture of our Imperium, attributing
nepotism, politics, and assassination to the Iridium Throne;
corruption, greed, and secrecy to the Imperial establishment;
thuggery, despotism, and injustice to the Member Worlds.  This is
followed by a bombastic essay that falls little short of a call
to bloody revolution, in the best tradition of the demagogues
that are named as a symptom of the Imperium's problems.

Let it be noted that, while there _are_ revolutionary movements,
they are few and far between, and aimed generally at the
governments of specific Member Worlds, rather than at the
Imperium as a whole.  Certainly, these movements are not as
ubiquitous as Prometheus would have us believe; such
revolutionary activity would require the whole of Imperial force
to put down, sparing none for even border actions against Vargr
raiders.  Clearly, this is not the case; and it takes little
effort for one who wishes to truly be informed to determine that
the Imperium is largely peaceful.  Prometheus brings us fire, in
the tradition of the chosen name, but instead of bringing it as a
gift to man, a tool that can be used for mankind's betterment, it
is brought as a weapon, and a force of destruction.  The original
Prometheus was punished by the gods for giving man the tool; our
Prometheus is merely a man, and can be punished by mankind for
bringing untruth, distortion, and destruction.

Yet even in such blatant distortion, there is an element of
truth: the Warrant can as easily be a recipe for enabling
despotism as one for enlightened autocracy.  We have been
fortunate in that, for the most part, enlightened autocracy has
been our lot.  But what of the future?  Could not an ambitious
younger Imperial Heir Prospective, eager for power and disdainful
of the rights of elder siblings or the Crown itself, use the very
tactics Prometheus decries to gain the Imperial Power, and abuse
it to personal benefit?

The Warrant served to promote the gestation of our nascent
Imperium, and to provide a framework within which it could grow.
But the Imperium has outgrown it; no longer are we in the womb of
consolidation, or the childhood of expansion.  We have reached,
if not our maturity, our adolescence, and the rules must change
for an adolescent.  We are ready now to take on additional
responsibility, but we still require a firm hand of guidance -
perhaps more than formerly, as we test our limits in many ways.
This is, ultimately, the heart of the need to restructure the
Imperium, and for the Imperium to take a more activist stand.

But that does not mean that we must abolish the current
structure.  Prometheus calls it a 'foundation...built in sand';
Dilgaadin attributes to it 'long habit' that 'almost invariably
reasserts itself'.  Perhaps there is something to be said for
both views.  But to create a new unity would add mortar to the
sand, strengthening it, and habit can be broken through the
development of replacement behavior.  More, to retain the extant
structures minimizes the stresses that will be added to those
that necessitate the changes proposed.  To do more is foolish; it
places at risk the entire Imperium.  A course of moderate change
is the best way to strengthen our Imperium, that the past
thousand years shall be like a single day in comparison to its
future.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #193
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 194



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Updated GURPS Traveller Vehicles program
Re: [Debate]  "Solomani Sam" 1
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
big mucking trees
GT Shipyard now available
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: All sorts of things...
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: GT Shipyard now available
The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)
Re: Out-of-Character comments
Re: WebSector
re: tanks
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #192
Announcement: Space Dock Program
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: GURPS Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:48:44 -0700
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

>Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:44:50 +0000
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
>
>The G:T errata states that the last column on the TURRET AND BAY TABLES
>on pp 151 sould read "Internal Spaces".  This now cleary states that
>Bays use 20 internal spaces and turrets use one internal space.
>
>The ARMAMENT TABLE on page 156 shows that the bay holds a 50 space bay
>weapon. The text states that: "Bay weapons may occupy an entire bay or
>take up space in the hull".
>

ERRATA -- GURPS Traveller -- February 9, 1999 
<http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/traveller.html>

"P. 151. 
In the Turret and Bay Tables, change the last two headings to `Cost (MCr)'
and `Internal Spaces'. A Bay has 50 Internal Spaces.
 
"P. 152. 
The second sentence should read, `Each bay uses up 50 internal spaces.'" 


No "honking big turrets".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:50:40 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Updated GURPS Traveller Vehicles program

GURPS Traveller Vehicles version 1.00.00 is now posted at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

Changes include (but are not limited to):

Weapon Spaces fixed.
Variable size Engineering spaces
Aux Engineering, Jump, Maneuver Drives.
Show Shipname Dialog Box on save if name has not been entered.
DR choice for armor as well as Weight
Different looking interface.
Separated Ship files from the exe download.

I hope you enjoy it.  Again ... it is still free.

BTW ... has anyone had any problems with the GURPS Character 
Maker?  I got one report of some problems with the Skill List and 
Psion Skill List operation.  I have not been able to recreate it and I 
was wondering if anyone else has the problem?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:53:11 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]  "Solomani Sam" 1

Fellow Sophonts:

I have been reading the current debate on Imperial political structure and
policy, and I have to point out one glaring flaw in this arguement.
Thuycidides has obviously taken the "Vilani-traditionalist" point of view. My
ancestors have shown the Vilani the errors of this line of thought. Gallatin
has an intereresting line of thought; i.e. the correction of the planetary
"hands-off" policy. I agree that this is desirable, but he doesn't go far
enough. I have a radical new preposal: FEDERATION!

I propose that the the entire Imperial political structure be revamped. An
interstellar Feudal aristocracy does not work for one main reason. It's
hereditary, and is thus vunerable to the great flaw of inherited rank-
mediocrety. Eventually unsuitable and/or incompetant persons inherit the
position, and are rarely removed form their positions. It's after all, human
nature (and probably Vargr nature, and and other races for that matter...)
that those brought up in priviledge eventually become spoiled and pampered and
neglect their responsibilities, since the are not held accountable for the job
they do. As long as they keep the "lid on" and don't let their subsector fall
apart, they can ignore paperwork for the vacation palace....

Thus I propose that the Imperium adopt a WRITTEN constitution, with carefully
deliniated Imperial-Federal powers, checks and balances, and limits and
responsibilities between the Federal-Imperial powers, and the local-"state"
powers. I use as an example of an excellent working Constitution, with a
proven track record; the Constitution of the Ancient Terran nation state of
the United States of America. This nation state lasted from it's inception all
the way untill it's absorption into the unified planetary government (of which
I may add the American governmental system had a major influence).

The American Constitution had a representive legislative body (with two houses
to protect the rights of both states with large populations, and states with
small populations), an elected chief executive to enforce laws created by the
legislative, and a judicial that reviewed these laws to determine their
constitutionality. The constition purposely designed these three bodies as a
system of "checks and balances". Lastly (and as many have considered this the
most important part of the document) there was a "bill of rights" attached,
which listed a series of basic rights of each citizen. Government couldn't
violate these rights, and most importantly in regrards to this debate: states
couldn't write laws or commit acts that violated the Federal constitution.
This allowed the Federal government to interviene in state affairs to protect
citizens and the constitution. 

In addition, I propose that Imperial and local nobles/officials be elected by
a popular vote of all adult Imperial citizens of each appropriate area.

As an example, we will take the case of Terra. We see a pyrimidal structure
(local municipalities, nation states, planetary government, subsector, sector,
domain, Imperial). At each level, elected officials govern, and their are
legislatures made up of elected persons representing the entire region). Thus
a person living in North America votes for executives and legislatures at all
levels: local. planetary, etc.). Thus at the Imperial level, we would have an
elected President (or some other name for the position), and a congress that
represented the entire Imperium. The Emperor would either have accept a
figurehead position (like many ancient Terran nation states after they
democratised), or allow the position to become elected. For the sake of
Imperial cultural continuence, I suggest the former idea...This would take
place at all levels of Imperial politics: all political positions MUST be
elected and non hereditary...

I realize that this is a very controversial position, that even most of my
Solomani brethren don't share. I submit to them that Solomani aren't destined
to rule all other humans, but that Solomani government (via representive
democracy) is...Commentary and/or criticsm is welcome...

"Solomani Sam"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:59:00 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

>P. 151. 
>       In the Turret and Bay Tables, change the last two headings to
>``Cost (MCr)'' and ``Internal Spaces''. A Bay has
>       50 Internal Spaces. 
>P. 152. 
>       The second sentence should read, ``Each bay uses up 50 internal
>spaces." 


I just pulled the above off the SJG web site. I think the entry for page
152 speaks for itself.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:58:57 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: big mucking trees

Doug types:
>But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
>need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
>Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)

I don't wanna think about what''s up the food chain from these critters...



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:05:02 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: GT Shipyard now available

I've just got the license for GT Shipyard.

For those of you just joining the TML, GT Shipyard is a Macintosh
application that makes designing ships for GURPS Traveller very simple. As
well as its own format, it can export ships to text and HTML files. 

The current version is forward compatible with Star Mercs and Far Trader,
and will be kept up-to-date as new books are published.

I used the alpha version of GT Shipyard to design the ships in 101
Starships.

Check out the BITS web site (www.bits.org.uk) for the demo version. (May
not be up tonight, I've just emailed Dom the good news. I dare say he'll
post an announcement and software review when he gets my message.)

Contact me or Dom when you're ready to buy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:08:10 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 01:33 am 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>And you need to grow up and accept that fact that while I still have
my
>freedom of speech (in actuality, you always do, unless they gag you)
I am
>going to point out the fact that an answer doesn't fit within the
parameters
>of the question and re-ask it.

	And if you're an asshole about exercising your "freedom of speech*,"
you're going to get flamed and/or ignored, or another round of "throw
Clif off the list." Maybe it makes you feel macho, but it cuts down
on the useful flow of information. It's been a point of pride that
I've never used a killfile, but the way you phrase things and respond
to people are pushing me close. Not that you care, obviously ... it's
a shame, because in occasional posts you really do have something
worthwhile to contribute. Which is why I've defended you off-list
before.

	But don't worry ... if you piss off everybody worthwhile on the
list, you won't have to listen to them have the audacity to NOT give
you EXACTLY what YOU want WHEN you want it ... and compound that with
having the gall of not tolerating being insulted for it ...

(*PS: I carry a copy of the US Constitution in my briefcase, and I
absolutely CANNOT find where it guarantees you the right to be
obnoxious, rude, and offensive using somebody else's "press"--which
is what the TML is.)
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

  "There are two things that are infinite: The Universe and 
   the stupidity of human beings. But Im not quite sure if the 
   universe is."--Albert Einstein 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:08:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 05:06 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Ob. Trav, are hi-TL energy weapons idiot proof?

Make a weapon idiot-proof, and they'll build a better idiot.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:05:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

At 05:21 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I personally think that T5 should include both in its character creation
>system. I've always thought that the random character creation helped with
>the "feel" of Traveller, and to a large extent I've missed it, expecially
>with G:Traveller (the article in Pyramid was a nice starting point to coming
>up with a new one).

From what Marc sent out a while back there will be an alternate system for
designing characters where you choose the age of the character and you get
told what default skills you'd have for that career plus how many skill
points you have to spend.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:13:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

At 02:11 PM 2/24/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
>> need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
>> Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
>> --
>
>Ok, what kind of trees?

Bloody great ones, one hopes..

(looking up nervously..)
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:11:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

At 09:39 PM 2/24/99 GMT, you wrote:

>It's gone.  We picked on you and Andy instead.

Yes, many TMLers are immortalized in ACQ as examples.. Kenji plays a
prominent role in explaining shotguns, and my lovely wife gets to hit
people with various superdense cookery.

and then there are the penguins...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:18:34 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clif <brclif@digital.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 23 February 1999 19:14
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property


>>I could enable text selection. Would that allow people to copy stats out?
>>
[snip]
>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.

A wee bit American-centred aren't we? An ISBN, as such, doesn't matter a
damn to most of the countries in the world. They rely on standard copyright
laws - which America has its own version of. Its the copyright that counts -
and you don't need to do anything for that to apply.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:23:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT Shipyard now available

- ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:

> For those of you just joining the TML, GT Shipyard is a Macintosh
> application that makes designing ships for GURPS Traveller very 
> simple. As well as its own format, it can export ships to text 
> and HTML files. 

Any chance of an PC version?

Terry
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:45:39 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)

> >Another thing, isn't the basic premise of G:T that the only event that isn't
> >in synch with the official universe/timeline that Dulinor's gig gets blown up
> >(which I don't think will every be "officially" ever explained (leaves room
> >for Ref's who wanna head that way), that keeps him from plugging Strephon and
> >Family (and Aslan ambassador)?
> 
> Well, as I understand it, SJGs contract restricts them to a universe where
> Strephon didn't die. Just how that came about is shrouded in mystery, but
> assuming for purposes of argument that Loren has settled on one single
> divergent event from which all differences flow (so much more elegant than
> multiple differences), the event must take place quite a while before 1116,
> since in the OTU Strephon had not decided to make Norris an archduke when
> he died whereas in tht GTU he had done so long enough before to have
> summoned Norris to appear at Capital in late 1116.

It doensn't have to.  Isn't the G:T TNS entry announcing his intent to elevate
Norris (and Isis?) *after* he would've been assassinated by Dulinor, in the
OTU, which could've been what Strephon was going to have done anyways, if he
hadn't been plugged by Dulinor.

Even assuming there was a massive preparation beforehand, there's nothing to
say it didn't happen that way for the OTU, either.  For example, OTU timeline:
Strephon sends notice to Norris to get his crap together and on such and such
date he's going to announce his intention to make him Archduke of Deneb.  Keep
quiet, a task force is en route, blah blah.  Norris gets the message and gets
ready.  Dulinor pays his little visit to Capital in the OTU.  The task force
gets there, but there's no trigger signal or instead (though I'm assuming
there's no cruiser like the Sargon sent, and but rather a J4 naval task force
[Dulinor's Sargon is said to be J6, though it could be a "cruiser" in the
Broadsword sense instead of the Azhanti High Lightning]) one of the TJs gets
to Norris and the Domain nobility, where they gather to discuss "economic
matters" (in another TNS entry).  Norris hangs on to the task force and
sequesters the crews.   Norris forges the patent of nobility. 

> Of course, if Loren don't want to mess with the 'single divergent event',
> all bets are off and any amount of differences are possible. But if he does,
> conditions in the GTU should in most cases be identical to conditions in
> the pre-Rebellion OTU.

Well, the official announcements about G:T (especially the web page) all lead
me to believe that it's the same background up to 132-1116, the same
undercurrents that lead to the Rebellion are still stewing (though it won't
happen Imperium wide cause of the contract), there's just no Assassination,
which doesn't unravel the whole thing.  Strephon's program to strengthen the
Domains continues.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:53:47 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Out-of-Character comments

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 00:57:12 -0500, TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

>> The other thing to remember is that events didn't fall out here
>> as they did in the TNE universe - so those events don't influence

>You know, I've been reading the commentary and don't think they have to be
>assumed to be from the alternate universe/timeline.  Why can't Dulinor have
>instigated or participated in that kind of debate in the "real" timeline?
>Certainly, it seems the MT materials are clear that his methods and desires
>were sticking in the craw of the nobility who despised him as an upstart...
>It would have to be more than a universal draft, and devolution to bit players
>in his govt, woudln't it?  This is the sort of thing that would piss off alot
>of nobles.  What's INI going to bout it?  He's an archduke and with the
>devolution of local authority, he probably has tabs on everything going on in
>his domain anyways.  The key has to be that the assassination is unexpected.
>His dicontent with the existing structure of the Imperium was well known,
>though not the severity.

The alternate universe was postulated as part of the 'ground
rules'.  Remember that in the "real" universe/TNE direction,
Dulinor killed Strephon not long after receiving the archducal
coronet.  In the "real" universe/GURPS Traveller direction,
Dulinor died in what would have been his assassination mission.
There wasn't _time_ in either universe for this debate.  That's
why I had to postulate a third time line.  The rest of your
commentary is interesting, and might have validity - but either
way would preclude this kind of debate having happened, simply on
the time factor.

>Another thing, isn't the basic premise of G:T that the only event that isn't
>in synch with the official universe/timeline that Dulinor's gig gets blown up
>(which I don't think will every be "officially" ever explained (leaves room
>for Ref's who wanna head that way), that keeps him from plugging Strephon and
>Family (and Aslan ambassador)? 

Well, yes - but that has such major ramifications.  It's what the
gang over in soc.history.what-if calls a "point of departure" or
POD.  Things progress _differently_ from that changed event.

>> the thinking of the 'major players'.  Given that Dulinor was the
>> instigator in the TNE universe and that Norris did his thing
>> without direct involvement in the Rebellion, it's reasonable to
>> assume (as I did) that their attitudes won't necessarily change
>> much - and Norris went far beyond what Dulinor _said_ he wanted.
>> Thus, 'Gallatin' (Dulinor) and 'Dilgaadin' (Norris) are both on
>> the same side, but Norris feels that Dulinor is being too timid.

>I've been noticing that.  Course my knowledge of where Norris actually went
>might be coloring the lenses.  I should think Norris would've been more open
>minded to Dulinor in the official timeline, but alas Arrival Vengeance didn't
>even try to stop in Ilelish, despite it being his closest neighbor (aside from
>the Vilani, who the Denebians end up trading blows with in Corridor).

There's the issue of regicide.  Norris was clearly loyal to the
Imperium in the abstract, and to Strephon personally (this can be
gleaned from Arrival Vengeance).  That would change his attitude
in the Rebellion universe - not to mention the danger of the AV
mission to start with - a detour to Dlan may not have been
justifiable.  With no regicide, Norris might have been (is) less
set against Dulinor, and willing to discuss the issues.  Again,
the One Event makes a difference.

In a way, that's what makes threads like this so interesting (at
least to me) - it's an opportunity to explore the possibilities
of What-Might-Have-Been in depth, and, in hindsight, makes the
decision to split the timeline a good one.

Maybe when this thread winds down, I'll do some research, and
find some other PODs for discussion...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:02:47 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector

Thanks, Scott.  You're the first respondent, so pick a world,
ANYWHERE in the mapped Imperium, and we'll radiate out
from there.

One additional thought.  If we arrange an intelligent subdirectory
tree, then archivers can collate site information easier.  I was
thinking of something like storing world info at /websector/WorldName
and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...

Hm, I can't seem to be able to web to your link... is it correct?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:45:36 EST
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: tanks

> having been "only" on M60A3 (19E20)(Pattons the rest of the world)(aside
> from the that g****n M85 .50 cal machinegun, the best tank the US has

We just put a normal Ma Deuce on now, though it used to be the M48, and that's
a good machine gun.  Never even heard of an M85 .50 cal.  Is that one of them
water cooled ones?  j/k!!!  ;-)

> ever fielded... (flame bait... ;')(oh, and kicking the as**s of Abrahms
> tankers into next week on a reg basis in the early '80s in Europe), all

LOL.    No flames, but best?  Um... faster, quieter (engine), better main gun,
better fire control system (at night, too... the thermals we use are alot
better than the FLIR on the 60s).  Longer max eff. range.  Thicker and DU
armor.  And we heft bigger & heavier rounds than you ever had to do, for the
personal stuff.  :-)   Now mind you, i've already stated my opinion of the
M1A2 and you probably only saw vanilla M1s...

Course if you're referring to the army types, they're training is really going
down hill.  Almost felt sorry for some of em when we left the Armor Inn
littered w/ their bodies.  And some genius thought up a hand to hand training
encounter...it lasted a whole 5 seconds w/ some poor soldier getting his arm
broken.  Then some good brawling in Radcliffe (Sparky's on "legs night") and
Louisville (some frat house party).  Fortunately, we never got caught (always
boogied out before the MPs got there), though CO told us to stop messing w/
the soldiers once (and our NCOs were alot less... diplomatic... about it, to
put it mildly).  In fact, I remember the big ruckuss that arose when we...
acquired... one of their guidons right before one of their ceremonies...
*That* was amusing.   :-)  Next up would be the time they were marching to
chow (must've been the *4th* damn time that same company recycled while I was
there) and we were in the way and had no intention of moving (word to the
wise, don't EVER try to break a unit's ranks).

I remember when there were some Canadian Marines (which I didn't know existed
prior to seeing some) hanging around Knox for awhile, we thought something
would end up going down, but they wouldn't let us near each other, though some
of their NCOs came to one of the classes to share knowledge.  Ahem, I digress
too far...

> can really say is that a full stop, hull down position will kill far
> more enemy than any rolling tank.

Usually.  Course zero times 2 is still 0.  That Kentucky windage you old
timers used just isn't as good w/ a really fast tank.  We pull up the battle
override and zoom!  lol.  Seriously, I know what u mean, but hull down can't
put a longer range on ones guns.

> Especially if you back that up with any kind of combined arms situation.
> Add infantry, artillery and air support and, _assuming training is equal_
> I will take either m60's or T80's over M1's anyday.

T80s?  C'mon...  A hunk of trash.  LOL.   We can hit them and an M60 outside
of those tank's max effective range.  I know the mech's always complain that
the hogs never had the "black box type" electronics boxes and could fiddle w/
everything.  Trackwork (ugh) is supposed to be alot easier on 60s, too.  Add
all that extraneous stuff and we won't break a sweat on M60s, T80s, T90s too.
We know all the weaknesses on the old hogs too.  Remember the Marines were
using them up to and including the Gulf, though one batallion (IIRC), of the 4
USMC tank bn's, got M1s at the time. 

> OBTRAV; as was mentioned a while ago; what, really, is the doctrine
> behind the Imp Army and Marines and those all too common Trepidas????
> Airland battle is a good start, but we dont have Ortillery...   ;)

Imperial Marines?  Meteoric assault.  Blow everything to hell.  Leave.
Imperial Army comes in somewhere along the line and garrisons the joint.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:12:12 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #192

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:48:43 -0500, "Jeff Groteboer"
<jeffg@ionstorm.com> wrote:

>Will the owner of Freelance Traveler please email me off-list? I'm
>having trouble reaching your site.

>http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller

>My browser tells me I'm connecting to 209.57.111.42, then after a delay
>it times-out.

That's me; I suppose that now would be an appropriate time to
make a general announcement:

It appears that the service hosting Freelance Traveller has
either crashed hard (i.e., mucho hardware replacement necessary)
or folded up shop and gone away.  I'm frankly not surprised
(though disappointed); from its TOS it was clearly a charity site
(i.e., nobody was paying for it).  I'm in the process of locating
other space for it, hopefully with TOS that will not be too
repugnant in terms of required links, banners, pop-ups, et
cetera, and with adequate space and support for CGI and/or
FrontPage.

I'm working as fast as I can on this...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:16:54 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Announcement: Space Dock Program

Announcing Space Dock 1.0! This is a Windows 95 program intended for users
of the GURPS Traveller system. Space Dock allows the user to completely
design space ships using the complete design system presented in the GURPS
Traveller book. An upcoming release of the program will include the ability
to add user-defined modules and vehicles (to be used as cargo).

You can download Space Dock at the following location:
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to contact the
author (me) at the following e-mail address: abatish@cyberhighway.net I am
more than willing to take suggestions on improvements.

Note that I'm hooked up to the TML in digest mode, since I can't afford to
overly clutter my mailbox, so your best response time will probably be
obtained by a direct e-mail.

Space Dock has been licensed by Steve Jackson Games, and is released to the
public as freeware!

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:29:06 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> I've played with several combat systems that included detailed hit
> locations systems.  My conclusion is that they seem to slow down most
> combats without adding that much.
>
> Among the better systems in total were HarnMaster, Millennium's End, and
> CORPS.  Even these had problems, with ME's plastic sheets suffering all
> sorts of abuse and they were expensive to replace!
>
> What I prefer is general body hits with increasing levels of difficulty if
> you wish to target a specific location.

I tend to agree with you.  What does ACQ have?

Months ago, someone on TML had a quick and dirty way
to do it.  IIRC, he used a bullseye overlay, with a roll to see
exactly where you hit.  It was centered mid-torso if no location
specified, otherwise, on the desired location.  It may have had
diffent bullseyes for different body parts,


If someone's got that, could you repost it?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:34:07 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> steve daniels writes:
> >
> > I can never forget my complaints.  "The Anti-Gunner" was a Soviet Intel
> > officer character I had that broke 4 rifles in a row, each the first time
> > he tried to fire it.
> >
> > Ob. Trav, are hi-TL energy weapons idiot proof?
>
> Shrug.  Depends on your definition of 'idiot'.  In GURPS traveller, a
> well-maintained energy weapon will have a malfunction of Ver., which means in
> order to malfunction you need to critically fail on your attack roll (slightly
> under 2% chance for most people) and _then_ fail an additional skill check.
> For someone halfway trained with a gun (skill 12, say), it works out to around
> 0.5%; someone totally untrained (using default skill of 6) will fail around
> 4.5% of the time.  If this fails the weapon is jammed...and isn't horribly
> difficult to unjam.

Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?

While we're at it, could the average TL-15 energy pistol be turned into
a grenade by the Star Trick of putting it on "overload"?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #194
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 195



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Traveller Vehicles link
Re: GT Shipyard now available
Re: All sorts of things...
Re: Web Sector
Re: [Debate] The Old Marquis 2  resp Dilgaadin 2
Re: [Debate]  The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1
Re: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: All sorts of things...
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: GURPS Traveller
[BITS] GURPS Traveller Shipyard
Civility
Rotting Munchkins
Re: GURPS Traveller
Clif-Proof Weaponry
Re: Neutrino sensors
Re: Intellectual Property
Re: All sorts of things...
Re: WebSector
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: Web Sector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:24:52 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Vehicles link

Sometimes I wonder how I manage to keep my head so far up my 
butt.

The link to GURPS Traveller Vehicles has been fixed.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:36:54 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT Shipyard now available

Rob Prior wrote:

> I've just got the license for GT Shipyard.
>
> For those of you just joining the TML, GT Shipyard is a Macintosh
> application

Argh!  MAC!  I didn't know it was going to be Mac.
Anything but that.

What we need is PC coder to translate Rob's work for PC.

You're sure to sell a lot more that way.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:42:44 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> >From what Marc sent out a while back there will be an alternate system for
> designing characters where you choose the age of the character and you get
> told what default skills you'd have for that career plus how many skill
> points you have to spend.

These rules are intended for Quick NPC generation, but work just as well
for Quick PC generation.  I love 'em.  You can pick the skills you want
(always an option IIRC), not worry about survival and injury rolls, etc.

Also interesting are the under-18 chargen rules.
- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:52:27 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

> Thanks, Scott.  You're the first respondent, so pick a world,
> ANYWHERE in the mapped Imperium, and we'll radiate out
> from there.
>
> One additional thought.  If we arrange an intelligent subdirectory
> tree, then archivers can collate site information easier.  I was
> thinking of something like storing world info at /websector/WorldName
> and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
> how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...

> Hm, I can't seem to be able to web to your link... is it correct?

OOPs, sorry.  The correct URL is:
http://ww3.ncweb.com/scspieker/traveller/websector/index.html

	One thing I would like to point out.  I am starting my own ISP
business, and I would like to offer some web space for anyone who would
like to join this project.  I can even offer to host an entire server to
this project.  The ISP business will be turned up May 1.
	I would suggest that we make this a first step by making one or two
sites, then as the ISP rolls out, then we move those sites into the
proper positions on the dedicated Traveller server.  The new service is
called FiberStream.net (if anyone really cares).
	I would also like to offer to store any traveller related web sites
and/or resources on that server as well.  One stipulation of course,
there has to be some form of virus scanning stage within the process of
posting items.

I'll look over the map and see if I can think of an interesting spot to
start at.  I think the initial location should be a group decision,
since we are trying to generate interest in others joining the effort as
well.  No sense in picking some place that is already detailed to death.
IMHO.

	Does anyone else have an opinion of where to start?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:22:06 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate] The Old Marquis 2  resp Dilgaadin 2

My Dear Dilgaadin,

	You do not see that the advantage the Imperium has, in respect to the
happiness and liberty of its citizens,  over the other great powers is the
freedom from a governmental orthodoxy.   If the Imperium chooses any
interventionist policy in local affairs to check "local oppression", then who
is to define "local oppression"?   If the Imperial government can interfere at
will, then whose will operates?   If the government choose a program for
change, then who charts that direction?   An interventionist policy either
leads to a policy mandated from Core, leading to the same ideological
orthodoxy present in all the other great powers; or it leads to a patchwork of
local action where local "committees" or "councils" or "governors" intervene
in world events, which would lead us to chaos, the breakdown of standard trade
and communications and Vargr-like instability.
	The empire is to large, the population too large to make an elected official
any more of a true "representative" than the nobles currently are.  You have
complained of the unchecked power of megacorporations, but who is more
independent of megacorp control, a noble with estates and income of his own,
or a local politician who must look to funding his next election?
	You have asked me whether I would join the Zhodani in fearing change.  I
would ask you whether you would join the Hivers in putting your vision of the
future over the wishes of trillions of sentients?  The Imperium exists for the
security of the member worlds and the maintenance of trade among them.   Yes,
I fear a change in that arrangement,  just as I would fear a bodyguard who
begins to question my methods of educating my children, or an accountant who
had the power to comit me to an asylum.
	Finally, you have stated that "Cultural uniformity is not the
aim, nor is it to be desired"  but the problem is that when someone is given
the power to intervene "for a good cause", when the "cause" is gone, the power
always, yes always, remains.  When power is available, it will one day be
used.  The power to intervene in world affairs will invariably and unavoidably
lead to a greater and greater conformity across all the member worlds, at the
point of the bayonet.  It will not be fast, it will not proceed at a uniform
rate, but it is unavoidable.

				The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:39:55 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate]  The Old Marquis 3  resp Solomani Sam 1

My dear Samuel,

	Gentlebeing, you are mad.    If the Imperium had one "representative" per
world, the "Senate"--yes I believe that was the old Terran term--would have
10,000 members.  I don't even want to begin to count how many representatives
would be needed if we wanted any type of real, responsive legislature.  
	Nothing prevents a world today from having a democartic system, many worlds
do,  but the only hope for a free empire lies with a "hands-off approach" to
what goes on on a world.  Replacing nobles, who look to the long term, with
opportunistic politicians who must needs be responsive to temporary passion
and powerful monied interests, would lead us to  a peak of corruption and
conflict.  The greed of the Terran Confederation legislature led to the
creation of the Second Imperium's noble regime in the first place. 
	 It is a comforting conceit among those in popular societies that aristocrats
are drooling twits. But there are thousands of examples of vibrant, long-lived
aristocracies, while democracies rarely last more than a few centuries.  Also,
democratic societies are not necessarily more humane or intelligent than
aristocratic ones.  Since you are fond of Ancient Terra, look at the conflict
between the early states of Athens and Sparta.  The Athenians were democartic,
yet they were arrogant, wasteful, foolish, tyrannical to their allies,
merciless to their enemies and eventually lost the war.  The Spartans were
aristocratic, yet individually they were widely known as honest, courageous
and virtuous.  The Spartans treated their allies well and were merciful to
their enemies, and in the end spared defeated Athens, when the rest of Greece
demanded its destruction.  

		The Old Marquis

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:42:16 EST
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: The divergence point (Was: Out-of-character comment)

	Hey,  in the MT universe Strephon didn't die either, he was elsewhere and his
double died.


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:00:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

steve daniels writes:

> Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?

Call it 'overheated' or something.  I can imagine a variety of things which
would cause an energy weapon to temporarily stop firing.
> 
> While we're at it, could the average TL-15 energy pistol be turned into
> a grenade by the Star Trick of putting it on "overload"?

Not sure what the average energy pistol is.  In any case, its probably easier
to just remove the power source and set that off.  Basically, for high energy
weapons powered by an EPG/PPG/FPG, you can set off single shots (with roughly
the same effect as single shots from the weapon), multiple shots would probably
be a tricky demolitions job to make work together.  Some forms of batteries
(particularly rapid discharge batteries) will explode.  Any HPG or capacitor
can probably explode, though the yield probably won't be very impressive; these
are typically part of the weapon rather than part of the power source, but can
probably be easily removed.  GT power cells by the rules can't explode, though
realistically they should explode quite violently, as they are capable of
near-instantaneous discharge and have enormous power densities.  The fuel tanks
for chemical fuel lasers will probably catch fire if punctured, and could
probably be coerced to explode more vigorously.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:08:28 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>I can never forget my complaints.  "The Anti-Gunner" was a Soviet Intel
>officer character I had that broke 4 rifles in a row, each the first time
>he tried to fire it.
>
Apparently the oxymoron about Intel applies in the Soviet forces, too?

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:08:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

"Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>I've just had a quick look at my book collection and found three systems
>that use percentile hit location systems; Palladium's "Role Playing Game",
>FASA's "Renegade Legion: Legionnaire" and Tri-Tac System's "FTL:2448" - Nb;
>this does not mean they have 100 hit locations!
>
>If anyone's interested, I might even dig out and check such classics as
>Twilight:2000 and The Morrow Project...

RQ can quickly be turned into a %ile system as it's D20 driven.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:10:46 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

"Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>To: Alan Hatcher - my 1986 3rd Edition (English, or 'UK-ish' to practically
>all the rest of the world now) GURPS Basic Set is in Imperial measurements
>(that's "feet-and-inches" for all you young pups!)

If you check, you'll notice that it isn't actually in Imperial, but in
American 'English' units.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:11:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay) wrote:

>> And yes, on behalf of BITS I did request that this was changed, even though
>> it was kind of tempting..... so tempting.....
>
>It's gone.  We picked on you and Andy instead.

But I won't sue....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:20:24 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

>Um...might I point out that mechanically speaking, there really isn't any
>fundamental difference between task-based systems and modifier-based systems?
>Its just a question of the difference in the signs.  If you really want to you
>can swap the numbers out -- instead of normal success requiring rolling under
>your skill on 3d6, have it require 21+ on 3d6+skill.  You have to muck
>with the
>critical success/failure system slightly, but otherwise its statistically
>identical.

I suggest reading the MTJ (IIRC, could be TD) by Joe Fugate on the use of
task levels not DMs.

My personal take is that task levels are more intuitive, and a whole string
of DMs is a pain.

I realise that there isn't a big difference, but there's a mental leap
between 'that's a difficult task' and roll 3D6 and add/take
<numberofyourchoice>. And that gets in the way. Why have to remember a
whole range of modifiers *for each skill* when you can have a basic roll
which you mod by task difficulty (changing target number or changing the
number of dice).

Eris can probably argue this better than me.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:52:29 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] GURPS Traveller Shipyard

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

BITS proudly announces the release of GT Shipyard, the latest MacOS
software by Rob Prior. The demonstration version, which is fully funtional
except for save, print and export features, may now be downloaded from the
link off the product page on the BITS website.

http://www.bits.org.uk/

The software implements the GURPS Traveller Sourcebook Modular System
(including errata) and also includes the GT:StarMercs Modules, and the
forthcoming GT:Far Trader Modules. It is operated through an intuitive menu
driven interface, and allows export as text, tabbed text and html. There is
scope to add a further 10 custom module types built in.

Tested under MacOS 7.01 onwards, and on processors from the 68030 onwards,
the quickest way to check compatibility is to download and try the software!

The fully enabled version costs 10 GBP, or $20 USD/CAN and is available
either directly from Rob Prior or from myself, acting on BITS behalf for
Europe.

Dom (BITS webmaster)

The software is published by BITS, and licensed by FarFuture Enterprises
and Steve Jackson Games, Inc.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:02:41 +0100
From: Volker Greimann <greimann@geocities.com>
Subject: Civility

Hi, Clif.
Just a quick thing: 
I think most poeple dont really object to what you are saying,
some post are really worthwile, but rather to the way you say some things.
Using words licks sucks, brain-dead, and others like that (you probably get
the drift)
gets people on the edge and makes them respond to you in a similar tone,
which you in turn, dont seem to like either. 
So what i am suggesting to you is:
Try to be a bit more civil in your posts. 
This is a list of Traveller fans, and most of the time, we think of
ourselves like a big family.
Sure we have our disagreements, but we try to solve them in a civil way,
politely.
Try to talk to us the way you talk to your parents, grandparents, children,
best friends, whatever. 
I am sure the list will respond a lot better to any of your posts in the
future if you do so.


Volker
(part time Peace-broker)
Volker
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
greimann@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:17:00 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Rotting Munchkins

>"Welp, I've got this
>blind, albino leprous dwarf with one eye, but check out his hand to hand
>skill!" That's not to say the system is broken, but that ROLLplayers can
>find a way to ply their trade in any system. Then again, so can
ROLEplayers.
>;^)


If the only way to get the dragonslaying sword bequeathed to you by the
princess is to seduce her, that rotting munchkin is going to have a hard
time completing the quest.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:21:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Dear Folks -

Hi Clif!

I think the "problem" some people are having is that they are used to
*very* polite language on the TML. We have managed to avoid the excesses of
some of the newsgroups, so when someone begins to be even slightly abrupt
or confronting, we are surprised (I know I am surprised if someone even
_swears_ on this list - one nice thing about the TML is that most people
have a wider vocabulary with which they can express their views). That
surprise sometimes turns to defence, if people think they are being
attacked.

The problem, as someone said earlier, is that sarcasm or even friendly
banter doesn't translate well to text. We miss the 90% of the message that
comes from the accompanying body language.

People on the TML have, therefore, adopted a certain polite style of
language. For example, instead of asking "What sucks about GURPS?", they
may well phrase it differently: "I've had a brief look at GURPS - can
someone tell me what its bad points are?". This is more understated, but
you should get the same result without getting people's backs up (BTW for
those who said "there are NO bad points", I kinda find that a bit hard to
believe - every system has its set of "Murphy's Rules" ;-).

Another suggestion is to respond more slowly - for example, the good rules
responses about using Soc vs Law came along in later digests, but I
received them all on the same day. This means that people *were* responding
to your query in the way you wanted them to - you just need to be a little
patient, and allow a few days to pass before saying you didn't receive any
useful info. People aren't on-line all the time, and anyway it may
(*should*) take some thinking time to come up with good and useful
responses.

The Soc vs Law question you raised started a very interesting thread, and I
know I gained a lot out of it - from quick rules to guidelines for
designing worlds to people's views on how the Trav universe could/should
work. The TML is a mine of useful info about Traveller, and this example
demonstrated the excellent range of info that can be gleaned on a
particular topic.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:27:26 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Clif-Proof Weaponry

>Shrug.  Depends on your definition of 'idiot'.  In GURPS traveller, a
>well-maintained energy weapon will have a malfunction of Ver., which means
in
>order to malfunction you need to critically fail on your attack roll
(slightly
>under 2% chance for most people) and _then_ fail an additional skill check.
>For someone halfway trained with a gun (skill 12, say), it works out to
around
>0.5%; someone totally untrained (using default skill of 6) will fail around
>4.5% of the time.  If this fails the weapon is jammed...and isn't horribly
>difficult to unjam.

In the Bond system, which uses percentile dice, most of the weapons which
also exist in the real world (not speaking of Q branch gadgets) have jamming
percentages which are so far below the smallest chance of 1% that you
actually have to make the weapon MORE unreliable to permit any opportunity
for jamming into the game system for that particular weapon.  The Walther
PPK is one of the few that has a significant chance of jamming.  From my
experience, the notoriously jam-prone Walther PPK (and variants) do so
because the marksman is not gripping the weapon tightly, which is required
if the blowback operation is to function reliably.  Once you train yourself
to do this, it rarely jams.

>
>However, a sufficiently talented idiot can break any weapon system.
>
Myself being a case in point.  I forgot to put the buffer spring in the
stock of an M-16A1 in A.I.T., when I charged the weapon the... man, I've
forgotten the term...but the piece that houses the firing pin jammed back in
the stock.  This also prevented breaking the weapon open to free it.  I
botched it good.  I seem to recall a scene where the weapon's barrel was
being bashed into the floor by a Drill Sergeant in hopes that gravity would
free the firing pin housing.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:24:06 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Neutrino sensors

Dear Folks -

Bruce said:
>>OK, I give.  What exactly should the nuetrino sensors...look like?

>Big spherical or cylindrical hunks of opaque metal. THe actual neutrino
>sensing element belongs inside a thick layer of superdense.

A nice touch would be to make them look like d12's or better still, d20's.

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:34:41 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property

>>There are a lot of unscrupulous bastards on the net.  As long as your
>>document has an ISBN # with the Library of Congress(and maybe it doesn't
>>even need that), it is the plagiarizers who are risking their ass.
>
>A wee bit American-centred aren't we? An ISBN, as such, doesn't matter a
>damn to most of the countries in the world. They rely on standard copyright
>laws - which America has its own version of. Its the copyright that
counts -
>and you don't need to do anything for that to apply.
>
>
Oh, well, I heard this from a Canadian who had been into publishing...
*shrugs*.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:38:52 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: All sorts of things...

Doug Berry said...

>At 05:21 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I personally think that T5 should include both in its character creation
>>system. I've always thought that the random character creation helped with
>>the "feel" of Traveller, and to a large extent I've missed it, expecially
>>with G:Traveller (the article in Pyramid was a nice starting point to
coming
>>up with a new one).
>
>From what Marc sent out a while back there will be an alternate system for
>designing characters where you choose the age of the character and you get
>told what default skills you'd have for that career plus how many skill
>points you have to spend.


Sounds great to me. That's what Iike to see.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:39:21 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: WebSector

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: WebSector


>Thanks, Scott.  You're the first respondent, so pick a world,
>ANYWHERE in the mapped Imperium, and we'll radiate out
>from there.
>
I was thinking of starting with some uncharted(?) space?  That way we
wouldn't have to worry about copyright laws at all.

>One additional thought.  If we arrange an intelligent subdirectory
>tree, then archivers can collate site information easier.  I was
>thinking of something like storing world info at /websector/WorldName
>and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
>how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...

I don't think we want it all in one place.  For one, wouldn't that give some
administrator access to all sites?  Second, if the server goes down, ALL of
the worlds go down.
>
>Hm, I can't seem to be able to web to your link... is it correct?
>
>Rob


- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:41:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Dear Folks -

"Sword Worlder" wrote:
>The idea that a Traveller "party" should be balanced gives me the
>heebee-geebees.  Sounds like old AD&D where you had to have one of
>each class in the party.

What have you got against AD&D? Gee, I even wrote up Trav-to AD&D rules!
;-)

To me, "balanced" means "having enough skills in the party to complete the
mission". In AD&D you do this by having different classes, because the
skills are inherent to the class (secondary skills notwithstanding!). In a
skill-based game such as Trav, Rolemaster, or GURPS, it is a lot more
difficult to "balance" the party when you have more skills to choose from.

The danger you need to avoid is to have the party run into something they
do not have the skills to solve, but the MUST be solved if they are to
complete the scenario.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:52:42 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

> One thing I would like to point out.  I am starting my own ISP
>business, and I would like to offer some web space for anyone who would
>like to join this project.  I can even offer to host an entire server to
>this project.  The ISP business will be turned up May 1.
> I would suggest that we make this a first step by making one or two
>sites, then as the ISP rolls out, then we move those sites into the
>proper positions on the dedicated Traveller server.  The new service is
>called FiberStream.net (if anyone really cares).
> I would also like to offer to store any traveller related web sites
>and/or resources on that server as well.

We want to be careful about putting all of the sites on one server, as a
bogged down server will mean that all of the sites are bogged down (unless
you have Windows 2000), and that a server crash will take out the whole
sector at once.  If they are on different servers, then if one server goes
down you can always jump to another world.

> One stipulation of course,
>there has to be some form of virus scanning stage within the process of
>posting items.
>
> Does anyone else have an opinion of where to start?

Any place where we can attempt to be original in our world creations.

Also, I think that we need to have links for Jump 1 on one page and for Jump
2 on another page, etc., cumulative, of course, as you increase in ship
capability.  A list of world names could be enough to click on to jump and
you could have an alternative "system map" (an image map) would you could
click on worlds to jump there.  A few undefined links could be available for
"misjumps".
>
>Scott
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #195
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 196



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Web Sector
Web Sector
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: WebSector
Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!
Duelling Shipyards
Re: Web Sector
Fw: tanks
Unjamming Energy Weapons (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re: GT Shipyard now available
Re: tanks
Re: GURPS Traveller
Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: Web Sector
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: Web Idea

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:53:32 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

You sound like the man to spearhead this project, Scott.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:55:36 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Web Sector

One thing each world should have is a discussion forum and chat room so that
Travellers can meet other PCs and leave a "Kilroy was here on ____" on the
discussion forum, sell items to other players, etc.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:57:12 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>> Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?
>
>Call it 'overheated' or something.  I can imagine a variety of things which
>would cause an energy weapon to temporarily stop firing.
>>

He asked how you UNjam an energy weapon.  Personally, I don't have a clue.

- --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:55:40 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> > But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
> > need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
> > Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
> > --
> 
> Ok, what kind of trees?
> 
More importantly, how do they continue as a species, considering the
defining characteristic of oxen, as opposed to bulls?

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:07:23 -0700
From: Clay <arioch@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 

> 
> What have you got against AD&D? Gee, I even wrote up Trav-to AD&D rules!
> ;-)
> 
I hope you're joking or being sarcastic.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:10:24 -0600
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector

Scott,

Beautiful graphical console!  I'll use it!

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:07:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

Howdy!

This message showed up on another mailing list (Kingdom of Atlantia,
SCA), but I thought it would be of interest to some here.

Forwarded message:
> 
> Feb. 23, 1999
> Famed Vietnam sniper Carlos Hathcock dies at age 57
> BY JACK DORSEY, The Virginian-Pilot
> Copyright 1999, Landmark Communications Inc.
> 
> VIRGINIA BEACH -- While he became a Marine Corps legend in Vietnam by
> delivering 93 confirmed sniper kills on the North Vietnamese, friends of
> retired Staff Sgt. Carlos ``Gunney'' Hathcock II always believed he would be
> better remembered for saving lives during the war in Southeast Asia.
> 
> Hathcock, 57, will be remembered for both.
> 
> Battling multiple sclerosis since 1975, four years before he retired from
> the corps, Hathcock died Monday.
> 
> His death came just two weeks after he helped pin a new rank on his
> 34-year-old son, Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Norman Hathcock III, during a promotion
> ceremony in the family's Pembroke area home.
> 
> The debilitating effects of multiple sclerosis and severe burns he suffered
> during Vietnam prevented Hathcock from traveling to North Carolina, where
> his son is stationed.
> 
> He was burned almost beyond recognition by a Vietnamese mine on Sept. 16,
> 1969. He was credited with saving the lives of a group of Marines he dragged
> from the burning halftrack that day.
> 
> Like the other Marines, he had been riding atop an assault vehicle when it
> struck a land mine. He was ``sprayed with flaming gasoline caused by the
> explosion,'' reads the citation that presented him with the Silver Star. But
> ``with complete disregard for his own safety and while suffering
> excruciating pain from his burns, he bravely ran back through the flames and
> exploding ammunition to ensure that no Marines had been left behind.''
> 
> The explosions ended Hathcock's fighting career, but as his admirers in a
> ceremony at Quantico pointed out in November 1996, the wounded he helped
> that day were a small fraction of the number that he saved by hunting down
> some of the enemy's most skilled killers.
> 
> The Viet Cong called him ``Long Tra'ng,'' The White Feather, because he was
> accustomed to wearing one in his hat. A newspaper once named him the
> deadliest gun in the corps. His vanity Virginia license plates read: SNIPER.
> 
> 
yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:15:34 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Biggest problem with GURPS Traveller!!!

Don McKinney wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Seriously, for a moment, some of us did point-based systems for MT and
> CT.  Point based is NOTHING new.  Point based is good.  Point-based is
> one thing T5 SHOULD be.

I _almost_ agree.  I would word it as, "Point-based is one thing T5
SHOULD be _capable of._"  IMHO, both point-based and random generation
systems would be a good thing.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:16:39 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Duelling Shipyards

My, there seems to have been a sudden explosion of GURPS Traveller
shipbuilding programs :) Two freeware, one shareware...any more that I
missed?

Just shows to go ya what enthusiasm a nice, simple, MODULAR ship
construction system can produce :)

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:22:06 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

	Well, you are correct, a burdened server would not produce the expected
or desired results that one might expect from a distributed
configuration.
	The point I make, and the service that I am offering is: 1) a dedicated
server for traveller materials only.  2) Since FiberStream.net will be a
tier 2 provider, we are connected to the largest pipe in the internet
period.  There is no 'hop' between the internet backbone, and the
traveller server.

	As for sectors.  The Rob and I have talked about Deneb, out on the
rimward side.  Rob had tentatively selected Atsah (2913), and I had
selected Doho (2813) to begin working on.
	An other item to help speed connection and reduce download time was to
use 'shared' common images so that we can all use the same interface, as
well as the using the same exact files for the navigation process.

	Clif adds a good point of identifying where and how you are to go from
one site to the next.  The easiest way is to use the 'ring' type of
architecture, where your site is dedicated to the hex number it has in
the sector.  Then links from there can be generated based on the jump
rating of the visitor's virtual 'ship'.  How you define what kind of
ship and it's capabilities are is still to be determined...

Scott

> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:39:21 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: WebSector
> 
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: WebSector
> 
> >Thanks, Scott.  You're the first respondent, so pick a world,
> >ANYWHERE in the mapped Imperium, and we'll radiate out
> >from there.
> >
> I was thinking of starting with some uncharted(?) space?  That way we
> wouldn't have to worry about copyright laws at all.
> 
> >One additional thought.  If we arrange an intelligent subdirectory
> >tree, then archivers can collate site information easier.  I was
> >thinking of something like storing world info at /websector/WorldName
> >and making internal links relative.  The only catch is I don't know
> >how to make html LINKS relative!  Bummer...
> 
> I don't think we want it all in one place.  For one, wouldn't that give some
> administrator access to all sites?  Second, if the server goes down, ALL of
> the worlds go down.
> >
> >Hm, I can't seem to be able to web to your link... is it correct?
> >
> >Rob
> 
> - --Clif

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:17:34 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: tanks

- -----Original Message-----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 5:12 PM
Subject: re: tanks


>We just put a normal Ma Deuce on now, though it used to be the M48, and that's
>a good machine gun.  Never even heard of an M85 .50 cal.  Is that one of them
>water cooled ones?  j/k!!!  ;-)

Thats the abomination that the M-60 used in the cupola.  IIRC, a converted
aircraft mg that *allways* jammed at gunnery.


>better fire control system (at night, too... the thermals we use are alot
>better than the FLIR on the 60s).

Actually, the M-60A3 TTS had a way better thermal sight than M-1/M-1A1s,
except it seemed a lot less reliable. Whne they worked, however, they gave a
better picture. The ballistic computer was slightly harder to use, but just
as accurate.  I served for 3 years on M-60s and 2 on M-1s.  Both ALLWAYS hit
with every round, given an average gunner and a good boresight.  Also, as my
unit had a lot of oldtimers in it, I got to listen to a lot of nostalgia for
the old APERS round- that and HEP.  The lack of a good anti-personel round
for the M-256 is, IMHO, its only real flaw.

> Longer max eff. range.  Thicker and DU
>armor.  And we heft bigger & heavier rounds than you ever had to do, for the
>personal stuff.  :-)

And in a smaller turret, too!

 > Now mind you, i've already stated my opinion of the
>M1A2 and you probably only saw vanilla M1s...


>
>Course if you're referring to the army types, they're training is really going
>down hill.  Almost felt sorry for some of em when we left the Armor Inn
>littered w/ their bodies.

Yeah, the Army thinks ONE day of h-t-h training is sufficient...for
enlisted.  Officers get none (though, a 4 hour block on bayonet fighting,
for "morale").  Whoo-boy.

>though CO told us to stop messing w/
>the soldiers once (and our NCOs were alot less... diplomatic... about it, to
>put it mildly).

Just for the Army's honor, I would like to point out that 4out of5 USMC
officers i my AOBC class failed the written English test.  The one who
passed was a reservist.  OTOH, Someone from the Tennessee ANG showed up with
his branch insigina on upside-down.

  In fact, I remember the big ruckuss that arose when we...
>acquired... one of their guidons right before one of their ceremonies...
>*That* was amusing.   :-)  Next up would be the time they were marching to
>chow (must've been the *4th* damn time that same company recycled while I
was
>there) and we were in the way and had no intention of moving (word to the
>wise, don't EVER try to break a unit's ranks).

Was this IET?  (or whatever the USMC calls initial branch training after
boot?)


>
>> can really say is that a full stop, hull down position will kill far
>> more enemy than any rolling tank.
>
>Usually.  Course zero times 2 is still 0.  That Kentucky windage you old
>timers used just isn't as good w/ a really fast tank.

UUh, we had wind sensors, lead, etc.   Note that the M-60A3 wind sensor was
withdrawn for being TOO accurate (and expensive)
>> Especially if you back that up with any kind of combined arms situation.
>> Add infantry, artillery and air support and, _assuming training is equal_
>> I will take either m60's or T80's over M1's anyday.
>
>T80s?  C'mon...  A hunk of trash.  LOL.


Agreed.  Now, an M-60 in turret defilade from a fighting position can move
up and fire in about 3-4 seconds.  That's how long you have to see it, react
and pray.  A T-80, well, it's going to take longer, fire slower and less
(much) accurately, and expose more turret.

>We can hit them and an M60 outside
>of those tank's max effective range.

Well, a 105 probably wouldn't penetrate a M-1A1(HA) frontally at ANY range,
so you're probably pretty safe.

 I know the mech's always complain that
>the hogs never had the "black box type" electronics boxes and could fiddle
w/
>everything.

That's the M-60A1- coincidence RF and all that.  We had plenty of toys,
though not as many as the M-1.

>Trackwork (ugh) is supposed to be alot easier on 60s, too.

Hallelujah!  Replacing road wheels, too.

OBTRAV:  Do planetary militaries get hand-down Imperial stuff?  Based on the
length (time-wise) of a TL, this could lead to some reserve units with
REALLY old stuff, especially in the interior.  Thinking of that , does Core
sector have subsector navies?  Seems a waste.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:12:16 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Unjamming Energy Weapons (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)

steve daniels wrote:
> 
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Shrug.  Depends on your definition of 'idiot'.  In GURPS traveller, a
> > well-maintained energy weapon will have a malfunction of Ver., which means in
> > order to malfunction you need to critically fail on your attack roll (slightly
> > under 2% chance for most people) and _then_ fail an additional skill check.
> > For someone halfway trained with a gun (skill 12, say), it works out to around
> > 0.5%; someone totally untrained (using default skill of 6) will fail around
> > 4.5% of the time.  If this fails the weapon is jammed...and isn't horribly
> > difficult to unjam.
> 
> Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?

By double-checking to ensure that the power source is properly connected
to the weapon.
> 
> While we're at it, could the average TL-15 energy pistol be turned into
> a grenade by the Star Trick of putting it on "overload"?

It depends.  Since one would not expect to see weapons that
spontaneously self-immolate on a routine basis (unless, of course, one
is playing PARANOIA), I can see three ways in which an energy pistol
could be made to blow up "on-call":

1.  The "overload-to-detonation" setting is designed into the weapon,
for just such a use.  IMHO, this is rather implausible, but YMMV.

2.  Setting such a weapon to "overload-to-detonation" requires tinkering
with said weapons innards (and thus a skill roll), based on either skill
in the weapon in question, or Electronics.  Takes a bit more time, but
it's more plausible.

3.  An anti-tamper device, built into the weapon, causes catastrophic
self-destruct if the weapon is handled by an unauthorized user.  Not
quite "on-call", but still fairly useful (until enemy troops learn to
leave such weapons alone).

<<snip sig file>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:17:04 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: GT Shipyard now available

Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> writes:
>> For those of you just joining the TML, GT Shipyard is a Macintosh
>> application that makes designing ships for GURPS Traveller very 
>> simple. As well as its own format, it can export ships to text 
>> and HTML files. 
>
>Any chance of an PC version?

I hope so. We're working on it. Stay tuned to the BITS site for
announcements.

Honesty compels me to point out that there are two competing products on
the PC platform out there right now, both free. You should probably check
them out.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:39:37 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tanks

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> >> The Lancer was an MT design, fully detailed in DGP's 101 Vehicles. I could
> 
> [snippity]
> 
> >Hmm... actually I am very interested in some info... not necessarily the whole
> >nine yards  [snip]
> 
> DGP's figures are suspect*, but here is the pertinant info on the Lancer:
> 
> Disp=20(!!!), for a volume of 270 kl.

Or 280 kl, in T4.  

<<snip>>
> 
> For example, the Lancer, if one is to believe the illustration, looks to be
> about 12 m long and 2 m high. On top of this is a turret about 5 m long and
> 1 m high. Pulling numbers out of the air and I will assume these two boxes
> are 2/3 as wide as they are high. Doing some quick math with lots of
> rounding up, you still get a total vehicle volume of only about 210 kl.
> And the Lancer is not even a box, but a wedge (with correspondingly less
> volume).
> 
The question is, how much volume will this critter require on my
starship?  The Displacement rating tells me that I have to allot 20
Dtons to move one of these beasts.  In this case, it doesn't matter how
any m^3 the actual design displaces, the required cargo space would
likely be a box with dimensions of length x width x height.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:42:13 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 05:06 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Ob. Trav, are hi-TL energy weapons idiot proof?
> 
> Make a weapon idiot-proof, and they'll build a better idiot.
> --
> 
<tongue-in-cheek>
The question I and my colleagues (fellow NCOs) ask is:

"It may be idiot-proof, but is it _lieutenant-proof_?"
</tongue-in-cheek>

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:58:25 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

Clif wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> My S-2 officer let two enemy OPFOR that a certain crazy specialist had
> captured (not me) expired from their wounds without interrogating them, per
> SOP.  I believe their wounds kept them from running, but they could shoot
> people if they got hold of a weapon.
> 
I truly hope that you meant that the Deuce failed to follow SOP, which
called for interrogating wounded Enemy Prisoners of War [EPW].  The
other way that this can be interpreted ("IAW SOP, the S-2 did not
interrogate wounded EPW, and instead let them assume room temperature")
implies that your unit had formalized war crimes in its written
policies.

As a 97E with 15 years of service, I would find the latter
interpretation disturbing (mainly because EPW are too good a source of
intelligence to waste!).

ObTrav:  During gaming sessions, I prefer not to handle the
interrogation of captured NPCs (after all, I see no point in taking my
work into a gaming session).  I prefer to watch my fellow players
attempt to question said prisoners, and only step in after they have
failed to gain any useful information.  (I do make sure to have an
interrogation-related skill, so that I can question prisoners
in-character.)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:18:39 -0500
From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

Uh, not sure about all that, but no one bothered to treat the enemy P.O.W.'s
of their wounds OR interrogate them.  I thought it was pretty weird.  It was
almost as if they doubted the enemy soldiers would have any good info.  As I
detained them, I did most of the interrogating and was told by an angry NCO
fixing some camo netting that I wasn't supposed to be talking to them.  (I
made certain not to reveal anything about our unit, mission, etc.)

It seemed also that everyone was angry for having their sleep disturbed.
(The OPFOR snuck in past a sleeping soldier's position and crawled around
waking people up and whispering, "I'm OPFOR.  You're dead."  Some dickwads
in our squadron didn't play by the rules and even though they were dead,
they alerted the rest of the squadron to the OPFOR presence and chaos
ensued.

- --Clif

P.S.:  I didn't quite get your question, but we DID let the EPOW's die of
their wounds.  I didn't quite understand it, myself.



>Clif wrote:
>>
><<snip>>
>>
>> My S-2 officer let two enemy OPFOR that a certain crazy specialist had
>> captured (not me) expired from their wounds without interrogating them,
per
>> SOP.  I believe their wounds kept them from running, but they could shoot
>> people if they got hold of a weapon.
>>
>I truly hope that you meant that the Deuce failed to follow SOP, which
>called for interrogating wounded Enemy Prisoners of War [EPW].  The
>other way that this can be interpreted ("IAW SOP, the S-2 did not
>interrogate wounded EPW, and instead let them assume room temperature")
>implies that your unit had formalized war crimes in its written
>policies.
>
>As a 97E with 15 years of service, I would find the latter
>interpretation disturbing (mainly because EPW are too good a source of
>intelligence to waste!).
>
>ObTrav:  During gaming sessions, I prefer not to handle the
>interrogation of captured NPCs (after all, I see no point in taking my
>work into a gaming session).  I prefer to watch my fellow players
>attempt to question said prisoners, and only step in after they have
>failed to gain any useful information.  (I do make sure to have an
>interrogation-related skill, so that I can question prisoners
>in-character.)
>
><<snip>>
>
>--
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:37:28 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Web Sector

At 10:22 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>	As for sectors.  The Rob and I have talked about Deneb, out on the
>rimward side.  Rob had tentatively selected Atsah (2913), and I had
>selected Doho (2813) to begin working on.

I'll try and work on Vincennes.  Granted, some of it was done in MTJ, but I
have a few TL-16 designs that I'd love to post, and this would be a great
reason.



Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

Give me a lever long enough and a prop strong enough. I can
single-handedly move the world.
- --- Archimedes ---

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:40:03 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Date sent:      	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:56:15 -0600
From:           	Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>

>Sword Worlder wrote:

>> >>  But please, make it an optional rule.   I've always found point
>> based games lead to characters that are too uniform and predictable. <<

>> The idea that a Traveller "party" should be balanced gives me the
>> heebee-geebees.  Sounds like old AD&D where you had to have one of
>> each class in the party.  Yuk.  If I'm running an archeology campaign,
>> then I want a bunch of characters with the same skills, but differing
>> capabilities, thereby letting the the PLAYERS' personality differences
>> come through.

>I agree, completely!  

>But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
>GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
>with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
>to succeed, create them ourselves.  


I'm working on one now. Basically it gives a character a base level of points 
which can be used to purchase skills from a "background pool" then you get 
more points per term to purchase from the "career pool". When you fail your 
survival roll you pick up a disadvantage (note there is no "payback" for a 
disadvantage, its just bad luck). And then you get to mustering out points to 
purchase from the "mustering out" pool. I'll post it when I've finished it (which 
given that I'm currently studying for two degrees, running a PBEM, working on 
the UCP and trying to raise two children might be awhile).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:24:46 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Web Idea

I still think the internet is a great 
>tool for roleplaying and offers chances for gammers and GMs alike 
>who want to interact with others outside their locale 
>community of gammers.  They can also provide vast amounts of 
>background infromation that can be absorbed into any game.  But
>I have seen few (including my own) sites that do this right for 
>any game. Dont give up hope though Cliff and I wont. Besides I am an 
>optimsit by natureunsuitable for 
>a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.]
>

Tim,
A website is really great for a PBEM to make sure everyone has the same 
information, and can have a good grasp of the items at hand.
Jesse has one we have been using one just recently for deckplans, and 
have been adding more information to keep the players updated.
It works, and its fun to see it grow...
:)
Roger Barr


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #196
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 197



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)
Re: Duelling Shipyards
Oddities of the Lancer (was Re: tanks)
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
Re: Imperial Cargo Containers
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
IMperial Doctrine
Redirectable URL
Ground Vehicles (was Diesel Engines)
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Ground Vehicle Design Sequence [LONG]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:14:48 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

Michael Houghton wrote:

> > Feb. 23, 1999
> > Famed Vietnam sniper Carlos Hathcock dies at age 57
> > BY JACK DORSEY, The Virginian-Pilot
> > Copyright 1999, Landmark Communications Inc.

Doug Berry and a couple of others have mentioned his name on the list in the
past.  I was going to ask for any Bio.s but found it myself at Amazon.


Marine Sniper : 93 Confirmed Kills
by Charles Henderson
List Price: $6.50
Our Price: $5.20
You Save: $1.30 (20%)
Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.
Mass Market Paperback Reissue edition (September 1991)
Berkley Pub Group; ISBN: 0425103552 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.72 x 6.86 x 4.20
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 259
Avg. Customer Review:  [one half star short of maximum rating]


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:18:31 -0500
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Interrogating Wounded EPW (was: Re: Body Parts...)

Black ICE wrote:

> ObTrav:  During gaming sessions, I prefer not to handle the
> interrogation of captured NPCs (after all, I see no point in taking my
> work into a gaming session).  I prefer to watch my fellow players
> attempt to question said prisoners, and only step in after they have
> failed to gain any useful information.  (I do make sure to have an
> interrogation-related skill, so that I can question prisoners
> in-character.)

Now *this* I would like to see!

You must share the dialogue with us the next time this happens.
An invaluable GM resource when the players are beinginterrogated.
;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:15:29 -0600
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Duelling Shipyards

> My, there seems to have been a sudden explosion of GURPS Traveller
> shipbuilding programs :) Two freeware, one shareware...any more that I
> missed?
> 
> Just shows to go ya what enthusiasm a nice, simple, MODULAR ship
> construction system can produce :)

Actually, I think it is more of a case of SJG finally emptying their 
Queue.  Mine had been sitting over there since October.  I am sure 
the other two could probably say the same thing.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:21:52 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Oddities of the Lancer (was Re: tanks)

[my gripes about the Lancer in 101 Vehicles snipped]

>The question is, how much volume will this critter require on my
>starship?  The Displacement rating tells me that I have to allot 20
>Dtons to move one of these beasts.  In this case, it doesn't matter how
>any m^3 the actual design displaces, the required cargo space would
>likely be a box with dimensions of length x width x height.



According to MT ship construction rules you have to allocate 150% of a
vehicle's volume for stowage aboard a starship, which I thought was supposed
to take this into account (so you actually need 30 dt for a Lancer). Of
course, I could be wrong about this.

However, the displacement rating -- and the volume derived from it -- is
used to determine things like cargo storage, fuel tankage, passenger space,
and all of that (did I mention that the Lancer also has 5 cubic meters of
cargo space and 30,000 liters of fuel tankage?). In this case, it *does*
matter how much volume the actual design displaces.

Sure, it's a matter of 5-6 dt or so, but I would like to have seen the
illustrations reflect the vehicles (and vice versa).

Don't get me wrong -- I *love* 101 Vehicles, complete with it's cool illos
and all of that. It's just that I am frustrated by little details like this.
;-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:18:16 PST
From: "Roger Barr" <rogerbarr@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

>Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?

If it is a TL 12 PGMP, you pray that the jammed pellet didn't reach the 
firing chamber. Anything higher than that, you toss it and duck...



>
>While we're at it, could the average TL-15 energy pistol be turned into
>a grenade by the Star Trick of putting it on "overload"?

IMTU, a laser cannot. A damaged fusion gun power pack overloaded once in 
a convention game of mine. It took the character throwing it down an 
elevator shaft to survive the explosion...

Roger Barr

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:04:41 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

- ----------
> From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
> Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 1999 4:56 PM

> But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
> GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
> with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
> to succeed, create them ourselves.  

Someone beat you to it.  Pyramid (SJG's online magazine) already ran an
article that merges GURPS with a chargen system similar to Classic
Traveller.  It's supposed to create roughly 100-point character after 3-4
tours, although this can vary pretty widely.

If you are a Pyramid subscriber, check out: 

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?462

If you aren't a subscriber, think about it.  It's a good source for general
gaming material and it's only $15 a year for something like 200 articles
(3-5 a week). 

(Tell them taschoene sent you :-)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:08:18 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces

- ----------
> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: GT Turret and Bay Weapon Spaces
> Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 1999 5:59 PM
[snip]
> >       The second sentence should read, ``Each bay uses up 50 internal
> >spaces." 
> 
> 
> I just pulled the above off the SJG web site. I think the entry for page
> 152 speaks for itself.

Indeed it does.  They changed the bleeping errata on me.  Aargh.  Well, at
least this is more consistent with High Guard.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:08:51 -0500
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Cargo Containers

- ----------
> From: Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Imperial Cargo Containers
> Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 1999 5:18 PM
> 
[re: Imperial cargo containers] 
> I will add the description (and design) to revision 2 of 101 Starships
and
> 102 Vehicles.

There will also be a range of standard containers in G:T Far Trader (in
non-Metric, unfortunately) in an assortment of varieties.  I think this
size is one of them.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 00:09:06 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

On 02/25/99 at 05:40 PM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>>But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
>>GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
>>with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
>>to succeed, create them ourselves.  

>I'm working on one now. 

Great!  I am too, sporatically, although I keep getting detoured by
work, games and the siren song of FUDGE.

>Basically it gives a character a base level of points which can be
>used to purchase skills from a "background pool" then you get more
>points per term to purchase from the "career pool".  When you fail
>your survival roll you pick up a disadvantage (note there is no
>"payback" for a disadvantage, its just bad luck).  

How about advantages? 

>And then you get to mustering out points to purchase from the
>"mustering out" pool.  

Sounds good! 

>I'll post it when I've finished it (which given that I'm currently
>studying for two degrees, running a PBEM, working on the UCP and
>trying to raise two children might be awhile).

Please do, and if enough of us are interested in Trav-style Chargen
for GT maybe we should be working together on it.  Maybe this is a
subject for a specialty mailing list, like onelist.

The approach I'm trying to take is going to be more random.  A quick
prelim...

1.  Attributes:  ((2d6)/2 + 7), round up [range 8 to 13, mean 11]
    Not as big a variation as Traveller, but it fits with GURPS, I
    think.

2.  No 1/2 points on skills, and each level is ONE point not a
    variable number.  Skills start at (lower at the player/GM's
    option):

      Skill         Level        When there 
    Difficulty       One        is a Default
    ----------------------------------------
     Easy        Attribute      Attribute-2
     Average     Attribute-1    Attribute-3
     Hard        Attribute-2    Attribute-4
     Very Hard   Attribute-3    Attribute-5

    The Attributes can be raised, or lowered, during career
    generation, but the base number rolled here is what is used for
    acquiring all subsequent skills.
    
3.  Advantages and disadvantages balance against each other, period.
    You can take either at any time, as long as the GM agrees and
    the points balance.

4.  Run a standard Trav-style career path for the character.  I'm
    thinking 2 year terms, rather than 4.

    a.  So many background skill levels for the first 17 years of
        life (I think 6 levels with no skill receiving more than 2
        would be good, might be too high.)
    
    b.  Enlist/draft into a career -- first term
    
        1.  Choose/roll an Occupation within the career (branch, MOS
            or specialty)
       
        2.  Get core skills for this career and occupation (This
            will vary based on career and occupation, College and
            Medical School are hanging me up at the moment.)
       
        3.  Roll for "Events" (commissions, promotions, medals,
            awards or penalties, injuries, etc) I suppose some
            Advantages and Disadvantages could be included here...
            
        4.  Check for aging effects (a second career might need
            this) 

        5.  Choose to leave or roll for continuation in career.
        
    c.  Subsequent terms
    
        1.  Roll for Mission
        
        2.  Roll on Mission/Branch Skills Table
        
        3.  Roll on Career-Life Skills Table
        
        4.  Pick a hobby/specialization skill from a *big* list

        (I'm thinking 3 skills per 2 years would work, OK.)
        
        5.  Roll for "Events" (commissions, promotions, medals,
            awards or penalties, injuries, special assignments, etc)

        6.  Check for aging effects             
        
        7.  Roll for continuation in career or choose to leave.
        
    d.  Mustering out
    
        1.  Rolls for benefits, contacts, possessions, etc.     
        
        2.  Rolls on Money table
        
        3.  Some kind of "ship share" system       
        
This is just a rough outline of what I'd like to develop.  I don't
know how it will work, or when I'll have time to flesh out the first
careers and test them.  Comments? Questions?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 00:12:34 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

On 02/25/99 at 01:04 AM,  "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net> said:

>> But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
>> GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
>> with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
>> to succeed, create them ourselves.  

>Someone beat you to it.  Pyramid (SJG's online magazine) already ran
>an article that merges GURPS with a chargen system similar to Classic
>Traveller.  It's supposed to create roughly 100-point character after
>3-4 tours, although this can vary pretty widely.

I've read it, liked it, wanted a lot more. I printed out a copy and am using it as one of the springboard for my ideas. 

>If you are a Pyramid subscriber, check out: 

>http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?462

>If you aren't a subscriber, think about it.  It's a good source for
>general gaming material and it's only $15 a year for something like
>200 articles (3-5 a week). 

>(Tell them taschoene sent you :-)

Or that eris sent you, I'd like a few free months myself!  

Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 00:30:57 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

On 02/25/99 at 12:20 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>>Um...might I point out that mechanically speaking, there really isn't any
>>fundamental difference between task-based systems and modifier-based systems?

Mechanically speaking you are generally correct. ;->  Task Systems just try to make uniform and easy to handle what ad-hoc modifier systems do. CT was based around ad-hoc modifer rules, of course, however DGP introduced the idea fairly early on and, Task Systems have been an integral part of Traveller ever since...for a lot of us anyway.   

Whether you prefer one or the other is obviously personal choice. 

>I suggest reading the MTJ (IIRC, could be TD) by Joe Fugate on the
>use of task levels not DMs.

It's TD, I believe, but I'm not going to pull out the box and dig through my old copies and check tonight. ;->

>My personal take is that task levels are more intuitive, and a whole
>string of DMs is a pain.

This is where I think Task Systems shine, they make stating tasks more uniform and completing them more intuitive. As a younger GM, way back when, I always had problems deciding whether a mod should be a 1 or a 2...or maybe a 3...and even worse, I wouldn't be as consistent as I should have been, I'd forget I used a -1 DM last time and say it was -2 leading to occasional "discussions" with the players. ;->  OTOH, for *me* it was easy to judge that a Task is Routine or Difficult or Formiable and I found it easy to stay consistant, too.

>I realise that there isn't a big difference, but there's a mental
>leap between 'that's a difficult task' and roll 3D6 and add/take
><numberofyourchoice>. And that gets in the way. Why have to remember
>a whole range of modifiers *for each skill* when you can have a basic
>roll which you mod by task difficulty (changing target number or
>changing the number of dice).

>Eris can probably argue this better than me.

I doubt it! ;->  

You know, it *really* isn't a problem to graft a Task System onto GURPS.  When 4th edition comes out I certainly hope that will be one of the "improvements" we find in it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:19:52 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Dear Folks -

Clay wrote:
>> What have you got against AD&D? Gee, I even wrote up Trav-to AD&D rules!

>I hope you're joking or being sarcastic.

Nope, they're up on my site. Also K9, with stats for CT and "Trav-as-AD&D".
;-)

What can I say? I have one group of "serious" Trav players, and another for
light relief...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:35:56 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: IMperial Doctrine

Shameless Plug:

Take a look at Starmercs for a quick discusion of "airland battle" type
Imperial doctrine. Would have been longer but Starmercs isn't about the
Imperial Military....

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:40:28 +1030
From: "Grimscale" <grimscal@inorbit.com>
Subject: Redirectable URL

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE60EE.50A92D60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I Suggest you check out http://purl.nla.gov.au/
This is a Australian site but there are some in the US, As far as I know
there all free

It seems tailer made for what you need

Grimscale

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE60EE.50A92D60
Content-Type: text/x-vcard;
	name="Grimscale.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Grimscale.vcf"

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Muller;Winn
FN:Grimscale
TITLE:Programer
NOTE:My Icq Number is 267122
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:grimscal@inorbit.com
EMAIL;INTERNET:grimscal@inorbit.com
REV:19990225T081028Z
END:VCARD

- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BE60EE.50A92D60--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:11:21 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Ground Vehicles (was Diesel Engines)

Bruce Johnson wrote
(with regard to Joseph Dietrich's posts on diesels and building TL7-8
tanks) :-

> Since I don;t know what the RW figures are, I don't know
> if this is realistic or not.
>

8-10 hours as nominal endurance is about right for most MBTs or AFVs, so
it's a good rule of thumb for vehicle designers.

> Sadly, none of the extant systems really model RW engines well, because
> the model's too coarse. Are we talking about diesel, gasoline, ethanol
> powered? Fuel Injected or carburetted? Normal, turbo- or supercharged
> aspiration? On the road or off road? Heavy or light vehicle?
>

The model actually isn't too bad for IC engines. Some of the external
combustion stuff as written in FF&S2 is more than 100% efficient,
though...<G>

IC Engines get a little more efficient and a little more energy dense
with increasing TL.

TL Type          PowOut  Mass   FuelRate   Efficiency
4  Primitive IC   0.25    1      0.3        0.34
5  Internal Comb. 0.33    1      0.25       0.41
6  Adv. IC        0.5     2      0.2        0.52
7  IC Turbine     0.59    1      0.2        0.52
8  Adv. IC Turb.  0.77    1      0.2        0.66
 
PowOut - MW per m3, Mass tons/m3, Fuel rate m3/MW-hour. TL 7 and 8
engines run on HGHCD (=diesel), earlier engines on gasoline.

Efficiency - energy available for work as a fraction of fuel energy.

The big improvement where ground vehicles are concerned is in
transmission efficiency, and the FF&S model seems to fit well for this
too.

Changing fuels changes the required fuel tank size and some
characteristics of the engine (e.g. startup time, which is not discussed
in the design books -?in MT Player's Manual??). 

Diesel and gasoline actually have about the same energy content :-

Fuel      MJ/L
Gasoline  35
Diesel    36
Methanol  15.6
Ethanol   21.3

Fuel injection vs. a 'carbie' should affect engine reliability, and
could be 'smoothed out' of raw performance data.

Similarly, turbo and supercharging increase thermal -> mechanical
efficiency a little (max. 20%) with increased engine unreliability
(shorter maintenance intervals).

Suggest :-
TL     Maximum Supercharge/Turbo Bonus to plant efficiency
5      +5%
6      +10%
7      +15%
8+     +20%

with reliability penalties of +4/+3/+2/+1 (using a T4/4.1 type system as
per the 'Emperor's Vehicles' book).

Engine price should be increased by 10% per % of supercharging.

So a TL 8 advanced IC turbine with an optimised 'turbo' costs 200% of
base, has an efficiency of (0.66 X 1.2) or 0.8, so its fuel rate
decreases to 0.165m3/MW-hour when the turbo kicks in.

Off-road vs. on-road : apart from borrowed (rented?) cars, purpose built
off road vehicles have a lower ground pressure. Due to the limitations
of the extant models, the easiest way to simulate this is to build a
bigger vehicle to get bigger wheels (tyres).

But it kind of works out OK anyway ; you can build a Range Rover or Land
Cruiser with FF&S/VDS/GURPS Vehicles ; VDS requires the least
'tweaking', GURPS Vehicles will yield the fastest car!

Extremes of vehicle mass are not modelled well (except in Greg Porter's
Vehicle Design System).

I propose the following 'patch' for FF&S :-

Maximum ground vehicle speed (road) (km/h) =
1000 X transmission efficiency X sqrt(thrust efficiency X motive
power/vehicle mass),

where motive power is in MW, vehicle mass in tonnes, and unstreamlined
hulls have a thrust efficiency of 1.

For extremes of vehicle mass, multiply by the following 'fudges' :-
Mass (tonnes)   Fudge factor
 < 1             0.625
 >=10	         1.2
 >=20	         1.6
 >=40	         2.0
 >=80	         2.4

This works well for vehicles ranging from bicycles through Formula 1
cars to main battle tanks (halving the FF&S2 efficiencies for track
transmissions).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:16:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

...
>> But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
>> need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
>> Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
>> --
>
>Ok, what kind of trees?

 Short, flat, and pulpy?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:16:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

>From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
...
>I've just had a quick look at my book collection and found three systems
>that use percentile hit location systems; Palladium's "Role Playing Game",
>FASA's "Renegade Legion: Legionnaire" and Tri-Tac System's "FTL:2448" - Nb;
>this does not mean they have 100 hit locations!

  "Aftermath!" - % referencing a chart for target species, typically broken
up into 30 body locations. Also L/R probs for different HTH aspectings. IIRC,
they may have had shots into cover be blocked if the body part on the template
would have been behind the actual cover. Quite interesting, overall.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:11:33 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Ground Vehicle Design Sequence [LONG]

Note : the following is a draft design sequence.
Someone might find this of interest <g>.
Constructive criticism is welcome, as always.

Ground Vehicles, v1.1

This design sequence should enable you to create anything from a
travois to a Tech Level 15 walker.
FF&S (1 or 2) rules are required - [for the moment].

* 1. Hull
i. Choose hull size from the Basic Hull Size table.

* Typical vehicle dimensions (metres)

Type                        Length   Width     Height
Motorcycle (no sidecar)     1.6-1.8   0.4      0.9-1
Small car (2 door hatch)    3.8-4     1.5      1.2-1.3
Medium sedan                4.2       1.6      1.3-1.4
Large sedan or estate wagon 4.5-4.6   1.7      1.4
4WD or minivan : as per large car with height to 1.9m (very high ground
clearance 4WD)
Light truck or minibus      5-7.5     to 1.8   1.4 to 2
Prime mover                 7-9       1.8-2.2  2 to 3
Bus or semitrailer          ~15       ~3       ~4 
Mark One tank (GB)          9.3       4        2.4
WW2 (and later) tanks       6-9       2.7-3    2.5 to 3

* UK Motor Vehicle Dimensions (maxima permissible for UK roads)
Type                                  Length, m
Wheeled                               12
Track laying (e.g. plant equipment)   9.2
Motor vehicle and trailer             18
Motor vehicle and trailer (goods)     18.35
Motor vehicle and two+ trailers       25.9

                                      Width, m
Motor vehicle                         2.55
Refrigerated                          2.6
Locomotive (prime movers + trains)*   2.75
Trailer (mass more than 3.5 tonnes)   2.55
Other trailer                         2.30
Agricultural trailer or appliance     2.55

[*on UK permanent way gauge 1432mm = 4ft 8.5" - same as U.S.]

ii. Choose configuration :
The basic configuration for most land vehicles is a box with
an aspect ratio of (4-5:2:1), or the slab.
Tanker trailers and cement mixers are 3.5 to 5:1 cylinders.
Motorcycles and bicycles can be regarded as close structures, unless
enclosed in shells, etc.

iii. Streamlining : motorcycles have a base streamlining of nil (thrust
efficiency 1) ; other vehicles have a base streamlining of simple. Some
high performance vehicles may require fast subsonic airframes
e.g. Formula 1, rocket cars and similar land-speed record threatening
devices.

iv. Armour : The minimum hull thickness for ground vehicles is 0.25cm.
Motorcycles and bicycles don't have 'outer skins', generally.

Options for box configurations
a. Increased armour on particular faces.
There are two ways of doing this : calculate area of various face(s)
individually, or use the following fudge :-

Face	Increase in volume per cm additional thickness
Front or rear	+10%
Top or bottom	+20%
Sides (both)	+30%

b. Sloped armour : by angling the armour, the effective thickness is
increased.
This uses up a lot of volume in waste space though.

Effective increase in armour value = baseline/cos(slope angle measured
from vertical)
Effective increase in volume = (w X [h^3])/[2tan(slope angle)]

So:-
degree of slope 20  30  40  45  50  60  70  80
volume mult     1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.9 2.4 3.8
armour mult     1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.6 2   2.9 5.8

Volume mult - multiply base volume by this to determine actual volume.
Armour mult - multiply base armour rating to determine effective value. 

v. Structure : A minimum 1.5G structure is required. Faster vehicles
(e.g. sports and racing cars) may need further reinforcement, depending
on their acceleration
(see below).


* 2. Locomotion
i. How Much Motive Power Do I Need?
One conversion to remember : 746W = 1 horsepower.

Motorcycles :-
Displacement  Horsepower range     Kilowatts
250cc           30-45              22.4 - 33.6
500cc           45-65              33.6 - 48.5
750cc           65-75              48.5 - 56.0
1100cc          100-175            74.6 - 130.6

Cars :-
50-80 horsepower (30-60kW) per litre of engine displacement (ignoring
turbocharging)

Extreme examples :-
Lambourghini Countach : 447 horsepower (333.46 kW)
F1 cars : 500-600hp (! - 373 to 448 kW)

Heavy Vehicles :-
truck (prime mover) 250-500hp
Mark One tank (GB) : 105hp - 28 tonnes, top speed 8km/h
Chieftain MBT (UK) : 760hp
M1 Abrams : 1500hp

ii. Velocity and acceleration 
The maximum speed of a ground vehicle is dependent on its power to
weight ratio.

Base maximum speed = 1000 X (trans effy) X sqrt(thrust effy X motive
power/mass),

where motive power is in MW, and vehicle mass in tonnes.

There are further effects for extremes of vehicle mass. These do not
apply to vehicles with walker transmissions.

Mass	Multiple
< 1     0.625
>=10	1.2
>=20	1.6
>=40	2.0
>=80	2.4

* Acceleration (on the flat) :-

9 X [motive power/mass]^(0.33) ms-2

Acceleration is often expressed in auto magazines in terms of time to
100km/h, or 60mph.

iii. Transmission Types 

There are five basic transmission types.

Volume is in m3/MW
Area m2/MW
Price MCr/MW
All have a base mass of 1 tonne per m3.
Optimised transmissions can be constructed ; halving transmission mass
doubles the cost.
Minimum transmission mass is 1/4 base mass.

Friction
Sled and skate blades, skis. Best on low friction surfaces like ice and
snow. Performance in other environments is poor.

TL	Vol	Area	Price	Efficiency
0	1.8	5	0.012	0.2
1	1.4	3	0.01	0.25
2	1.0	2	0.008	0.3
3+	0.8	1	0.006	0.4

Wheels
Wheel and axle, powered or unpowered. Carriages drawn by animals require
a transmission equal to the peak power output the animals can generate.
Wheeled vehicles have a fair off road capability.

TL	Vol	Area	Price	Efficiency
4-	2.8	12	0.14	0.4
5	2.2	10	0.099	0.45
6	1.8	8	0.063   0.5
7	1.4	6	0.041   0.6
8+	1.0	5	0.025   0.7

Tracks
A belt of metal segments looped over a series of driving and guide
wheels. Steering is usually effected by locking one track and pivoting
(slewing) the vehicle.
Excellent off road capability ; the transmission of choice for heavy
vehicles like construction equipment and tanks.

TL	Vol	Area	Price	Efficiency
4	4.9	17	0.809	0.15
5	3.6	14	0.504	0.2
6	2.8	12	0.322	0.225
7	2.1	10	0.2     0.25
8+	1.5	9	0.12    0.275

Hover
The vehicle is held a few centimetres off the ground on a bubble of air.
Hovercraft have true all-terrain capability, but can be difficult to
steer, especially in windy conditions.
The power requirement becomes prohibitive in thin atmospheres ; values
below are for one atmosphere pressure.

TL	Vol	Area	Price	Efficiency
5	4.1	25	0.02	0.2
6	3.2	20	0.017	0.3
7	2.5	15	0.013   0.4
8+	2.0	10	0.01    0.5

Walker
The vehicle moves on legs like an animal. Walking vehicles can move over
broken terrain which is not possible with any other vehicle type.
An electronic 'nervous net' is required to effectively co-ordinate
the mechanical legs, hence the relatively high Tech Level requirement.

TL	Volume	Area	Price	Efficiency	Leg Volume
8	8	22	0.8	0.1	        0.2    
9	4	18	0.6	0.2	        0.2
10	2	15	0.4	0.25	        0.2
12	1	10	0.2	0.3	        0.15
14+	0.5	10	0.1	0.35	        0.1

Leg volume is total leg volume as percentage hull volume, per leg.
(first volume figure is transmission contained within hull).
Area equals hull area required and ground contact area, for simplicity.
Leg armour and structure should be determined as per the hull. There is
no free volume in the legs for other equipment - it's assumed that this
is taken up by control machinery, etc. 


3. Sensors, Commo, Navigation

<Consult relevant tables>

The following items are commonplace at the listed Tech Levels :-
TL   Feature
4    Headlights
6    radio receiver
7    2-way radio (oh, the funky days of CB...)
8    cellular phone
9    navigation computer, heads-up display (civilian ; TL 7-8 for
military)


4. Weapons

Turrets : enclosed rotating weapon mounts, usually placed on the top of
the vehicle.

A superstructure equal to the required size should be constructed.
Main turrets have a volume equal to 10% or more of the base chassis
volume. Only one can be mounted on the vehicle.

Small turrets have a volume less than 10% of base chassis volume.
If manned, the turret is a cupola (requires at least a cramped crew
position), otherwise it is a remote mount which requires a gunner.

Chassis mounted weapons are attached to some facing of the vehicle.
Pintle :- a post or rail to which a light weapon is attached e.g. a
machine gun.
Open :- a chassis mount on an open-topped vehicle.


5. Controls, Crew, Amenities

<refer to the relevant tables>

Amenities :-
Vehicle air conditioning can be regarded as 'minimal life support' for
the passenger compartment.

Controls and their effects on Ease of Use :-
TL  Type                    Modifier
5   Automatic transmission  -1
6   Power steering          -1
7   Anti-lock brakes,       -1 each
    Cruise control
8   Traction control,       -1 each
    full control from
    steering wheel

Crew positions :-
Small vehicles don't require access space around seats.
Description   Volume/m3
Cramped       0.8
Adequate      1.0
Roomy         1.5
Luxurious     2.5

Most car manufacturers assign 1m3 volume per person for an average car.
Large vehicles are allocated 1.5m3 ; NASA allocates this as the volume
required for a vacc-suited individual to comfortably operate controls.


6. Power plants and fuel
Ideally, there is sufficient volume to fit
all the desired goodies into the hull and have power for them too!

Racing engines : like transmissions, these should be optimisable -
perhaps halving the mass at 10X the cost would be a good starting point
(ceramic engine blocks, etc?)

A. Endurance Class     Fuel supply at maximum power output
1. Civilian/Sports       2 hours
2. Endurance I           6 hours
3. Endurance II          8 hours
4. Endurance III         12 hours
5. Endurance IV          >12 hours

Most vehicles would fit into class 1.
Military vehicles (tanks and APCs) would make it to class 4
(most 2 and 3).
Class 5 vehicles are unlikely, for safety reasons (all that explosive
fuel, unless nuclear or battery powered).
 

7. Design Evaluation
a. Maximum velocity and acceleration : recalculate now that overall
vehicle mass is known.

b. Range = maximum speed X endurance

c. Ground clearance
Generally :-
Overall height = hull + superstructure height + ground clearance

*Wheels and tyres
i. Wagon wheels, trains : wheel area as shown.
Contact area is small :- wheel area/constant
Vehicle mass (tons) :-   constant
0.1-1			 50			
1-10			 30
11-100			 20
101+			 10

ii. Tyre + wheel area (sidewall) = 2.5 X area given (TL => 4)
This is for standard aspect tyres, 2 per axle.
Multiply area value by 2.5 for every additional 2 tyres per axle.
E.g. an 18-wheeler has a sidewall area of (2.5 X 2.5) = 6.25 X base area

'Slicks' (low aspect tyres) have an area multiple of 1.25.

Total contact area = (tyre + wheel area)/constant
values in square metres
                               Tyre Type
Vehicle mass (tons) :-    Standard    Slicks
0.1-1                       30         10
1-10                        20         6
11-100                      10         3
101+                         5         2

Can divide up amongst number of tyres.

Ground clearance (m) = k X sqrt(sidewall area / (number of tyres X pi))

suggested values k :-
0.1 - race car (F1/Indy)
0.3 - minimum for sports car, low-rider or similar street vehicle.
0.4 - minimum for unmodified road vehicle.
0.5 - minimum for 4WD or similar 'all terrain vehicle'
k should be no higher than 1.5.
 
* Tracks :-
Track contact area = area calculated
Ground clearance (m) :- overall height / 20

*Walkers :-
Leg length = total leg volume / (total contact area X number legs)
Ground clearance = leg length (the transmission volume is contained
within the hull, then the legs start).
Maximum height jumped (m) = (2 X max power to legs / vehicle mass X g)
power in MW, mass in tons, g 10ms^(-2).
This ignores air resistance and assumes reasonable leg structure values.
(on the order of 40G+ - may have to consider rules for shock absorbers).

d. Ground pressure :-
The weight of a vehicle influences what terrain it can move over.

This effect is exploited by friction transmissions on ice - the pressure
exerted over the contact area of the blades causes the ice to liquefy,
dramatically improving traction.

Ground pressure (kPa) = Vehicle weight (kN) / contact area (m2).

Hovercraft have an effective ground pressure of zero.

GP, kPa  Off-Road Speed Multiplier	Terrain Restriction?
<=5	        1.0
<=50	        0.8	                None on land!
<=100	        0.6 - tanks (70-80)	can traverse sand, mud
<=200	        0.4 
<=400	        0.2 - car (201)
<=800	        0.1 - truck (650)	can traverse clay, packed earth
<=1600	        0.05	                only on sealed road
> 1600	        0.025	                only on specialised pavement		

Comments :-
Anti-personnel mines are usually set to trigger
with a threshold pressure of 21-84kPa.
Anti-tank mines are usually set to trigger with a
threshold pressure of 70-560kPa.

The actual ground pressure equation is rather complex :-

GP = [Kc/b + Kp]^(1/(2n+1)) X [ 3W / ((3-n)b(sqrt(D)))]^(2n/(2n+1))

GP in psi, per tyre (pounds force per square inch)
b tyre width, inches
W weight in lbf
Kp (actually phi) - frictional modulus of terrain deformation
Kc - cohesion modulus of terrain deformation
n - exponent of terrain deformation
D - tyre diameter, inches

Example values for constants :-
       Sand        Clay
n      1.1         0.73
Kp     3.9         24.5
Kc     0.1         16.3

So : higher n more deformable
     higher Kp - more traction possible
     higher Kc - material less likely to break up or non granular.

Mud intermediate n, slightly lower Kp and Kc compared to clay
Rock or road - low n, higher Kp and Kc compared to clay


Example designs
1. TL 8 MBT
Hull : simply streamlined box 9 X 3 X 1.5 m : Volume 40.5m3,
Area 54 + 9 + 27 = 90m2
Armour composite laminate 5cm mass 36t volume 4.5m3
Structure 1.5G comp laminate 0.608m3, 4.86t

Loco Tracks-8, power 1.1MW, volume 1.65 area 9.9 mass 1.65
Power gas turbine 1.1MW, volume 2.2m3 mass 1.1 area .44
Fuel for 6 hours at maximum speed - 2m3 HGHCD

Turret : box 4.5 X 3 X 1.2m : volume 16.2m3, Area 27 + 7.2 + 10.8 = 45m2
subtract 27m2 from armour requirement (base + top already provided)
Armour composite laminate 5cm mass 7.2t volume 0.9m3

Armament 120mm gun/launcher, 40 rounds : volume = 4.2m3, mass = 2.3t
         13.02MJ muzzle energy, ROF 2 per minute?? 
(at variance with article in Challenge! - 3 rounds in 12 seconds with
elite gunners - so out by a factor of 7)
         Ammo HE damage 36, burst radius 20m, pen 171
        (?correct value)
         7.62mm machine gun (coaxial)
         7.62mm machine gun (external, loader's)
         12.7mm machine gun (external, commander's)

Ammo : 11400 rds 7.62mm ammo
       900 rds 12.7mm ammo

Crew, etc. 4 (driver, loader, gunner, TC) : roomy (1.5m3) positions
Gunnery computer, laser pointer for main gun
Gun stabiliser
TC periscope
Navigation systems
Radio communications (50 km, 500km)
Driver night vision/HUD ; Mechanical controls

Mass : 56.9 tons
Max speed : 84.4km/h    Range : 506.4km
Acceleration : 2.5 ms^(-2), or 0 to 100km/h in 11.1 seconds 
Contact area : 9.9m2    Ground Pressure : 57.47kPa
Ground clearance : 13.5cm, overall height 2.835m
Cost : 300kCr

2. TL 8 Formula 1 racer
Hull : fast subsonic airframe wedge 4.4m X 1.8m X 1m, volume 7.92m3,
area 9.28m2
Armour : Kevlar monocoque skin (FF&S2 toughness 2.76, density 1.44,
cost 0.08MCr/m3), 0.25cm. Volume 23 L, mass 33 kg
Structure : 3G carbon fibre composite (FF&S2 toughness 3.56, density
2.1,
cost 0.06MCr/m3). Volume 8.43 L, mass 17.7kg

Locomotion : Optimised Wheels-8, power 0.47MW, volume 0.47m3, area
2.4m2, mass 0.12t
Power : custom advanced internal combustion turbine (price X 10, mass X
0.5), volume 0.47m3,
mass 0.24 tonnes, area 0.33m2
Fuel for 1 hour at maximum speed - HGHCD 94L

Crew : one, adequate position, enhanced mechanical controls, 2L supply
of water for driver.

Mass : 570 kg with driver (80kg), fuelled.
Maximum speed : 377km/h    Range : 377km
Acceleration : 8.44ms^(-2), or 0 to 100km/h in 3.3 seconds

** Reality check : just faster than the McLaren F1, the world's fastest
production car

Contact Area : 0.75m2      Ground Pressure : 7.6kN
Ground clearance : 7.5cm, overall height 1.075m
Cost : 110kCr

Sorry about using bandwidth, but at least it's Traveller related, unlike
the personality conflicts that seem to dominate the list of late!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #197
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 198



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)
Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: GT: Grav compensators
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: Unjamming Energy Weapons (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)
Re: The divergence point
Re: GURPS Traveller
Pyramid
World Building software? / WebSector
Re: WebSector
Jammed Energy Weapons
Re: Duelling Shipyards
Re: Jammed Energy Weapons
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)
Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)
Re: Pyramid
[OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!
Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen
Task systems vs. Modifier systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:08:53 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Starship Deckplan Orientation

>> Imagine I have a needle config ship 40 meters long. If it's got
decks
>> perpendicular to thrust and loses a leg while sitting on the pad,
some of
>> it falls 40 meters. If it's got decks parallel to thrust (landed
VTOL
>> airplane style), it falls a meter or two on a landing gear failure.
>
>It'll still break its back.

Theoretically possible, but far less likley when it has less distance
to fall.
An aircraft does _not_ usually break it's back on a landng gear
failure

>Also, consider the loading on the landing
>gear. Making retractable gear for something that heavy is gonna be
>interesting.

Not really. See how the Hercules and Starlifter handle it.

>The stresses on the gear for a tail sitter require lighter
>gear.

That's not correct.

A tail sitter requires each piece of landing gear to handle more
stress,
because there's less of them due to the lack of surface area for
mounting them.

>> I've generally seen two reasons for parallel deckplans: either you
land,
>> or you dock frequently with ships that do (makes things more
convenient
>> for cargo transfer and such). Wait, reason three: they look cool
that way.
>
>Reason two makes no sense.

It does if you think about it.

It makes sense for the same reason that RORO freighters exist in the
real world, it's easier to
move cargo more or less horizontally in one plane.

Now you could argue that grav makes this unneccessary, but if you are
trying to move cargo between the two different types we're talking
about here, the move requires either at least two 90 degree direction
changes, or the moving of the parallel freighter vertically up each
deck of the tail-sitter, with loading hatches on each deck

Actually,  moving cargo between two tail-sitters is twice as difficult
as moving from a parallel to a tail-sitter, which should make it
obvious why tail-setters would be uncommon for cargo ships.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:00:03 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen (is free in the net)

> From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>

> > From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>

> > But now that *we*, the Traveller Community, are potential consumers of
> > GURPS, *we* can bitch and complain and try to convince SJGs to come up
> > with Trav style character generation systems for us.  Or more likely
> > to succeed, create them ourselves.  
 
> Someone beat you to it.  Pyramid (SJG's online magazine) already ran an
> article that merges GURPS with a chargen system similar to Classic
> Traveller.  It's supposed to create roughly 100-point character after 3-4
> tours, although this can vary pretty widely.
> 
> If you are a Pyramid subscriber, check out: 
> http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?462

And if you are NOT a subscriber, see exactly the same at

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?462

since that article is provided free. ;->

Check also

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.cgi?444

for a free G:T adventure.

Ah, don't try to look for these two goodies on the Free Samples link 
of the Pyramid page, for some reason they are not there...

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:45:44 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Prissy Aunts of the TML

I'm utterly flabbergasted at the flak Cliff's getting for his question
about Gurps Traveller

He asked "what sucks about GT?"

That's a perfectly reasonable question, phrased in normal
conversational English.

It doesn't imply that  GT is necessarily bad, and it doesn't insult
any member of the list (unless sucking has some
non-politically-correct meaning insulting to a specially-abled
minority in this context that I am unaware of  )

He _didn't_ say  :
"Yo muthafuckers, which of you zoned-out crackheads is going to tell
me why GT should be inserted sideways up Clinton's ass?"

though some of you are reacting as if he did much worse.

I wouldn't find the latter example personally insulting either, or
grounds for the sort of comment Cliff is getting for his innocuous
question. Though I can see why grandma's sewing circle might be upset
by it, and I would agree that it's not particularly polite, it's
pretty common language most places.

His later responses about people being afraid to post negative comment
are, while somewhat paranoid, I feel justified by the reaction his
comment got. To an outsider it would seem that many people were trying
to stifle negative discussion about the subject.  To someone's who
been around the list for a while, well, it's just the sort of
prissiness and holier-than-thou attitude one has to expect on the TML

For me, anyway, the positive benefits of subscribing outweigh having
to put up with such attitudes from some of the members.

Oh, and BTW, to the person who threatened to leave the list :
"Like, we care ?"

That threat was another example of the sort of old boy snobbishness
involved, implying that if a regular member of the list got _so_ upset
the he felt like leaving, we simply _must_ deal with this reprobate,
post haste,  eh what, old bean ?

Basically, the people complaining about Cliff need to grow up, get a
life, and realize they're not in kindergarten anymore, and that the
TML is a forum for people to discuss things related to Traveller, not
a discussion group for Mrs Beatson's Guide to Etiquette,  Mannerly
Living, and the One Hundred and One Things a True Lady Should Not  Be
Seen Doing In Public

<obTrav  : Now _there's_ a 101 book for DGP.....>

And before you reply to Cliff again about how you think he should
phrase his posts, (or before you respond to this post, for that
matter) just think about the supposed principles of free speech in the
country many of you hail from, the Vulcan IDIC principle, and then ask
yourself who died and made you god ?

Uh uh, <wags finger> don't hit that reply button,   I said _think_
about it, not regale me with your opinions about it.

BTW, I'm fully aware of the irony of preaching against preaching, so
don't bother commenting on that one either.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:36:11 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> I've played with several combat systems that included detailed hit
> locations systems.  My conclusion is that they seem to slow down most
> combats without adding that much.  

One method of determining hit location which does not slow combat down
at all is reversing the number rolled on the percentile dice to hit.  If
you roll a 37 to hit your opponent then you have hit them in location
73.  You then look at the little picture on the charecter sheet  and see
that this is a hit to the body.  This method is used in the Warhammer
Fantasy Role Playing Game and it works quite well there. [Warhammer FRP
is a game that, like Traveller, has a better setting than system.] The
system has only 6 head locations head, body, l arm, r arm, l leg, r
leg.  Hit location does not make much of a difference for most wounds
but for critical hits (wounds that dammage you beyond your hit capacity)
location can make a big difference.  A minor critical to the arm might
make you drop your weapon where a minor critical to the head might leave
you too stunned to fight for a few rounds.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:18:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT: Grav compensators

In mail you write:

> Grav compensators. From what I can read on the rules in vehicles, 
> the compensators compensate up to 6 Gs. What happens when it is 
> exceded? If I jam on 9 Gs, do I have 3 Gs of acceleration or does it
> fail and I eat 9 Gs? The way the rules seem to indicate, it is the
> former. If so, how much in Gs can an average person take for how 
> long?

The concensus is that doing 9 g with a 6 g compensator exposes you to 3g.

How many gs you can take depends on which *direction* they are in. For
example, anyone in decent health should be able to handle 3g flat on
their back for a fair amount of time. Folks in good condition should
be able to handle it for *hours*. This is because the altitude
difference in your body is a matter of a few inches. Not much "uphill"
pumping for your heart.

And "flat on your back" *is* the way most accel will be in space
fighters, and even in larger ships (assuming they have intelligently
designed accel couches). 

Aircraft get the "positive gees" (ie head to foot) and occasional
"negative gees" (foot to head). These cause major problems due to blood
pooling in the legs and abdomen (g-suits squeeze this out) or pooling
in the head (bad news, strokes can occur!).

Limits for head to foot accel are 2-3g for a few seconds (some of the
more extreme carnival rides) for "average" people. For folks in *good*
condition, I'd say maybe as much as 10-15 minutes at 3 g down to
seconds at 9 g (a *hard* pullout in an aircraft). 

Side to side accel is somewhere in between.

Nobody has located any *hard* info from NASA or the Air Force, but the
above is derived from things mentioned in passing.

Oh yeah, the record is over 80 gees for a few seconds in the "on your
back" config.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:00:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

In mail you write:

> Evyn MacDude wrote:
>> 
>> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> 
>> > But the Denebian Tree-Ox lives on, and is a staple in my campign when we
>> > need a giggle.. the snorts and grunts coming from the trees as the
>> > Tree-Oxen leap from limb to limb...  (they weigh 1600kg)
>> > --
>> 
>> Ok, what kind of trees?
>> 
> More importantly, how do they continue as a species, considering the
> defining characteristic of oxen, as opposed to bulls?

Ox does *not* neccessarily refer to that. Consider Musk Oxen. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:18:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unjamming Energy Weapons (was: Re: GURPS Traveller)

In mail you write:

>> While we're at it, could the average TL-15 energy pistol be turned into
>> a grenade by the Star Trick of putting it on "overload"?
>
> It depends.  Since one would not expect to see weapons that
> spontaneously self-immolate on a routine basis (unless, of course, one
> is playing PARANOIA), I can see three ways in which an energy pistol
> could be made to blow up "on-call":
>
> 1.  The "overload-to-detonation" setting is designed into the weapon,
> for just such a use.  IMHO, this is rather implausible, but YMMV.
>
> 2.  Setting such a weapon to "overload-to-detonation" requires tinkering
> with said weapons innards (and thus a skill roll), based on either skill
> in the weapon in question, or Electronics.  Takes a bit more time, but
> it's more plausible.
>
> 3.  An anti-tamper device, built into the weapon, causes catastrophic
> self-destruct if the weapon is handled by an unauthorized user.  Not
> quite "on-call", but still fairly useful (until enemy troops learn to
> leave such weapons alone).

For laser pistols, just open it up, and smear some vaseline or the like
on an *inside* surface of the optics. It won't show unless the weapon
is disassembled. But the optics will do a good grenade imitation when
it's fired. A trip-wire hooked to the trigger makes it into a booby
trap, otherwise, rig a delay circuit.

If the "vaseline" intercepts as little as 1% of the beam energy,
that'll be more than enough bang. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:16:34 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The divergence point

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>>...assuming for purposes of argument that Loren has settled on one single
>>divergent event from which all differences flow (so much more elegant than
>>multiple differences), the event must take place quite a while before 1116,
>>since in the OTU Strephon had not decided to make Norris an archduke when
>>he died whereas in tht GTU he had done so long enough before to have
>>summoned Norris to appear at Capital in late 1116.
> 
>It doensn't have to.  Isn't the G:T TNS entry announcing his intent to elevate
>Norris (and Isis?) *after* he would've been assassinated by Dulinor, in the
>OTU, which could've been what Strephon was going to have done anyways, if he
>hadn't been plugged by Dulinor.

In that case Norris would have been on his way to Capital when the assasination
attempt went off.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:30:30 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

At 20:57 24/02/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>>> Umm, how do you "unjam" an energy weapon?
>>
>>Call it 'overheated' or something.  I can imagine a variety of things which
>>would cause an energy weapon to temporarily stop firing.
>>>
>
>He asked how you UNjam an energy weapon.  Personally, I don't have a clue.

Assuming that it's overheated: either you wait for it to cool down or
you're going to need some coolant.

Possibly a can of "InstaCool" is in the service kit,
or you use some water from your canteen,
or you substitute another liquid that's available and you can afford to
spare.

;->

Alternatively, a fuse might blow - replace it with a nail and see how
much damage the Ref rolls next time.

:-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:43:20 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Pyramid

>Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.

Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.

Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)

Guess I should enquire...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:05:16 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: World Building software? / WebSector

Ok,
	Now that we have gotten a few bites on the idea of the web sector, what
about a fast easy way of using the world builder's handbook?  Does
anyone know of any software that can that the UPP of the system/main
planet and transcribe that information into human readable text?

	A spreadsheet or anything else would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:08:10 -0500
From: Scott Spieker <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Re: WebSector

> 
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:53:32 -0500
> From: "Clif" <brclif@digital.net>
> Subject: Re: Web Sector
> 
> You sound like the man to spearhead this project, Scott.
> 
> - --Clif
> 

Clif,
	Well, I don't think that I am the best choice for that position. 
Especially with trying to get the ISP business going and all, I will
have very little time to devote to managing a project such as this. 
Normally I would be honoured, but I don't think it would be fair for the
others if I were to do it and then let it drop as such a silly thing as
money get in the way... :-)  I think I would rather remain as just an
enthusiast at this point.

Any volunteers?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:30:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Jammed Energy Weapons

Here are a few suggestions about how an energy weapon might be 
"jammed."  Please keep in mind that these are based on only a few 
minutes of creative juices flowing after catching up with my TML 
reading this morning.  If any of these make sense, great!  If not, 
I'd like to blame the fact that I'm not fully awake yet.  (I can't, 
of course, but I'd like to.  :)

All of these excuses should require about the same amount of time to 
recover as a "jammed" firearm.

Eight Different Reasons Why An Energy Weapon Might Be Considered 
Jammed:

1.)  Rapid or vigourous movement causes short/disconnection to power
pack/power supply.  Connection must be re-established before the 
weapon can become active.

2.)  Magnetic firing control becomes hyper-polarized and is frozen
in open position, and must be replaced or "degaussed" before the
weapon can be used again. 

3.)  Through faulty manufacture or usage, a portion of the firing
optics becomes fused and opague, rendering the weapon ineffective
until replaced.  (Lasers)

4.)  Faulty power source/power meter falsely indicated a full power 
source, but source is now empty/depleted.  Must replace power source.

5.)  Trigger mechanism breaks and is not responsive to activation.  
Mechanism will need to be replaced or repaired.  (Could be as simple 
as a small spring or lever that's slipped from position, but weapon 
must be dismantled to fix it.)

6.)  Cooling system/power source overheating, rendering the weapon 
inoperable until repaired or brought to a lower temperature.

7.)  Rupture in housing renders weapon ineffective for focusing 
laser/containing fusion or plasma reaction, and continued operation 
of the weapon becomes hazardous to the user.

8.)  Rupture in housing exposes internal mechanisms to exotic or 
corrosive atmosphere/atmospheric taints, which causes the weapon to 
seize up/become inactive until repaired or replaced.  (Non-standard 
atmospheres.)

I'm sure there are other suggestions, but this is all I could come up 
with in ten minutes.  Referees are encouraged to be creative in the 
descriptions of any of these events when presenting them.  With 
enough pseudo-science techno-babble, it brings home the flavor of a 
good s/f game to the players.  And that means more enjoyment for the 
entire group.  (As well as a healthy respect for the fallibilities of 
even advanced technology.  Nothing's perfect.  :)

Hope this helps.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:40:36 -0700
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Duelling Shipyards

>Actually, I think it is more of a case of SJG finally emptying their
>Queue.  Mine had been sitting over there since October.  I am sure
>the other two could probably say the same thing.

Yup. Mine took from about November or December. Looks like they have things
running properly now though, so future programmers should have a much easier
time of it.

Andrew
________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:54:17 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Jammed Energy Weapons

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> Here are a few suggestions about how an energy weapon might be
> "jammed."  Please keep in mind that these are based on only a few
> minutes of creative juices flowing after catching up with my TML
> reading this morning.  If any of these make sense, great!  If not,
> I'd like to blame the fact that I'm not fully awake yet.  (I can't,
> of course, but I'd like to.  :)

Excellent post. I'm going to keep that for whenever my players roll spectacular
failure on a weapons task.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:28:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

At 11:45 PM 2/25/99 +1300, you wrote:
>I'm utterly flabbergasted at the flak Cliff's getting for his question
>about Gurps Traveller
>
>He asked "what sucks about GT?"

Nothing.

Does that mean that GT has no problems?  No.  I dislike Imperial
measurements.  That does no "suck" however.  It's a minor annoyment.  The
system questions are fairly irrelevent to me, since I use CORPS.

For a good example of a Traveller product that does "suck", try Emperor's
Vehicles, or First Survey.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:45:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies (fwd)

At 12:14 AM 2/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Doug Berry and a couple of others have mentioned his name on the list in the
>past. 

Carlos Hathcock wasn't just the most successful sniper in American military
history, he was also a great Marine and a wonderful person.  I had the
chance to shake his hand once, and he struck me as a very simple, pleasent
person, at peace with himself and the world.

We will never see the likes of him again.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:53:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Body Parts (was "Above the Law")

At 07:29 PM 2/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>I tend to agree with you.  What does ACQ have?

ACQ uses an Action Point system.  You can spend AP to raise the target
number of the T0-Hit task.  If you roll 5 below the To-Hit task, any damage
that gets through armor is doubled.  If you roll 9 below, you do triple
damage.

Example:  Shooting a pistol at Short range, your To-Hit number is 11 or
less on 3D.  You spend 4 AP to raise the target number to 15.  If you
rolled 9, you'd do 2D damage.. assume no armor.

The damage rolls are a 3 and 5.  Since you made the To-Hit by more than 5,
those are doubled (to 6 and 10) before applying them to the characteristics.

You can also declare an attempt to hit a particular body part (such as a
gunman's had), use the target size rules to figure the difficulty adjustment.

- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:58:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML (Ranting on the wrong thing)

The "What sucks" question got very little flak.  The bulk of the flak
was due to the abusive comments he made to responders who defended a
game they like.  You're ranting about the wrong thing.  And, as the
prissiest aunt in the nursing home here, I must say that I'm disgusted
by both your tone and your language.  =:-o



- ---Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> I'm utterly flabbergasted at the flak Cliff's getting for his question
> about Gurps Traveller
> 
> He asked "what sucks about GT?"
> 
> That's a perfectly reasonable question, phrased in normal
> conversational English.

BTW, "normal conversational English" varies by area.  We Puritans in
New England do not talk thus and are shocked when Ye speaketh such. ;-)
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid

- ---Rob Prior <Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca> wrote:
>
> >Pyramid *is* worth the $15 US a year.
> 
> Well, they charged _my_ VISA $16.41. Still worth it.
> 
> Extra shipping to Canada, maybe? :-)
> 
> Guess I should enquire...
> 

Sales tax, as they mentioned when you sign up. The MiB get that =:-o

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:28:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: [OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!

A quick note to announce that I have just posted a BUNCH of Classic
Traveller items, including some of the hard to find stuff like Books
6, 7 & 8, Alien Realms, Tarsus, Beltstrike, Hardcover Traveller Book
and Best of JTAS Vol 2 & 4.  There's plenty of CT, MT, TNE and T4
stuff posted, now.  Sorry, no GURPS :-)
==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

         Now a proud member of Downport.com
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:36:40 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller CharGen

Eris said:

>Great!  I am too, sporatically, although I keep getting detoured by
>work, games and the siren song of FUDGE.


FUDGE is a siren's call.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:22:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

Hi all.

I have to say I've never understood the point of task difficulty levels.
In MT (IIRC) each diff level had a target 3 higher than the one below it.
Isn't this the same as saying "a -3 DM makes things hard, a +3 easy"?
Instead of a string of DMs, you get a string of -3 or +3 DMs.

I guess it just seems like an extra step to me.  Why tell a player "It's a
Hard task, so that means roll 10+" instead of saying "Roll 10+"?  It all
comes back to numbers in the end.  Players quickly get an intuitive sense
of how hard it is to roll over a given target, and the GM retains the
flexibility of naming any target he likes. 

One thing I do like is having standardized DMs for attributes, though, but
I worked those out long before MT came out (divide by 3, round down was
my system).

Just my .02 Cr,
Charles.

- -----
"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #198
**********************************

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Traveller-digest     Thursday, February 25 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 199



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML
re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: GURPS Traveller
Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif
Re: [OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!
Re: Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies
Re: World Building software? / WebSector
Re: Bradley vs M113
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: GURPS Task system
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: Prissy aunts of the TML
Apology
Re: Pyramid
Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems
Re: Prissy aunts of the TML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:18 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!

Ummm, that gives me a not found error.  Speaking about LBBs, I'm looking
for CT books 1-8.  Anyone know where else I might find them?

Thanks lots.

The Admiral

On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:28:51 -0800 (PST) Sword Worlder
<swordworlder@yahoo.com> writes:
>A quick note to announce that I have just posted a BUNCH of Classic
>Traveller items, including some of the hard to find stuff like Books
>6, 7 & 8, Alien Realms, Tarsus, Beltstrike, Hardcover Traveller Book
>and Best of JTAS Vol 2 & 4.  There's plenty of CT, MT, TNE and T4
>stuff posted, now.  Sorry, no GURPS :-)
>==
>------------------------><>------------------------
>Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
>          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 
>
>         Now a proud member of Downport.com
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:50:42 -0600
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

Charles Collin posted:
- -- quote --

Hi all.

I have to say I've never understood the point of task difficulty levels.
In MT (IIRC) each diff level had a target 3 higher than the one below
it.
Isn't this the same as saying "a -3 DM makes things hard, a +3 easy"?
Instead of a string of DMs, you get a string of -3 or +3 DMs.

I guess it just seems like an extra step to me.  Why tell a player "It's
a
Hard task, so that means roll 10+" instead of saying "Roll 10+"?  It all
comes back to numbers in the end.  Players quickly get an intuitive
sense
of how hard it is to roll over a given target, and the GM retains the
flexibility of naming any target he likes. 

One thing I do like is having standardized DMs for attributes, though,
but
I worked those out long before MT came out (divide by 3, round down was
my system).

Just my .02 Cr,
Charles.

- -- end quote --

Charles,

From my personal experience with MT, some players
and GMs find the text description easier to 
visualize than a string of DMs. In some cases, it
helped standardize the DMs rather than leaving them
up to a GM's whim, thereby providing everyone with
a reasonable expectation and avoiding some of the
arguments which arise when players perceive the
GM as being capricious (word for day :-) ).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:36:12 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

In message <36D4AD9C.5809C887@premier.net>, Black ICE
<wombat@premier.net> writes
>More importantly, how do they continue as a species, considering the
>defining characteristic of oxen, as opposed to bulls?
>
><<snip sig>>
>-- 
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead


I read that as "AurochTech Shipyards" in light of the above.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:12:03 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Prissy Aunts of the TML

 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>For a good example of a Traveller product that does "suck", try Emperor's
>Vehicles, or First Survey.

Or <shudder> 'The Annililik Run'. AD&D in space.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:16:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

 Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:

>I have to say I've never understood the point of task difficulty levels.
>In MT (IIRC) each diff level had a target 3 higher than the one below it.
>Isn't this the same as saying "a -3 DM makes things hard, a +3 easy"?
>Instead of a string of DMs, you get a string of -3 or +3 DMs.

Ah, but I can say to my players after a session or two: 'It looks easy to
do that' or 'That's staggeringly hard' and they automatically reach for the
right dice and the narrative flow is maintained. You don't get the roll nD
+DM jolt of reality with it. YMMV - It could just be a matter of style.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:06:18 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>On 02/25/99 at 12:20 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

Oh no I didn't.......

>>I suggest reading the MTJ (IIRC, could be TD) by Joe Fugate on the
>>use of task levels not DMs.

I wrote this bit in response to the first...

>It's TD, I believe, but I'm not going to pull out the box and dig through
>my old copies and check tonight. ;->

I know what you mean - I was up too late modifying the BITS site to include
GT Shipyard...

>This is where I think Task Systems shine, they make stating tasks more
>uniform and completing them more intuitive. As a younger GM, way back
>when, I always had problems deciding whether a mod should be a 1 or a
>2...or maybe a 3...and even worse, I wouldn't be as consistent as I should
>have been, I'd forget I used a -1 DM last time and say it was -2 leading
>to occasional "discussions" with the players. ;->  OTOH, for *me* it was
>easy to judge that a Task is Routine or Difficult or Formiable and I found
>it easy to stay consistant, too.

Exactly!


>You know, it *really* isn't a problem to graft a Task System onto GURPS.
>When 4th edition comes out I certainly hope that will be one of the
>"improvements" we find in it.

I know - I've clipped yours for more indepth reading.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:25:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Leroy and ACQ was Re: Boycott Clif

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 09:39 PM 2/24/99 GMT, you wrote:
> 
> >It's gone.  We picked on you and Andy instead.
> 
> Yes, many TMLers are immortalized in ACQ as examples.. Kenji plays a
> prominent role in explaining shotguns, and my lovely wife gets to hit
> people with various superdense cookery.

<suspiciously>

Why the shotgun?  Surely the PMPP is an integral part of ACQ's
thoroughgoing wonders!!!  Sheesh!  As long as my vanity is making me buy a
copy when it comes out...

(And, just to show folks that size really doesn't matter, soon I'll be
posting my design for a highly lethal 0.1mm gauss rifle!)

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:29:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Oo-ooh, look at all the pretty stuff!

- ---j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Ummm, that gives me a not found error.  Speaking about LBBs, I'm
looking
> for CT books 1-8.  Anyone know where else I might find them?


Sorry, little redirector trouble there.  Fixed.  Thanks.


==
- ------------------------><>------------------------
Buy & Sell Traveller items: The Subsidized Merchant
          http://surf.to/traveller-trader 

         Now a proud member of Downport.com
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:07:44 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Where can I find a vehicle design spreadsheet ...

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:

>... for MegaTraveller? Does one exist? I would like to re-engineer the
>Astrin and the Trepida -- aka Intrepid -- into more believable designs
>(i.e., an APC that isn't 135 cubic meters in volume).

I'd be interested in that. I'd write it myself, but I don't have a
spreadsheet at home (and taking media in or out of work is problematic).

>Or should I just chuck the whole thing and just build designs using other
>sources and "translate" them into MegaTraveller terms?
>
>Any advice (besides drop MT -- I already use FUDGE for task resolution ;-))?

Hey, I *like* MT. Good setting, no HEPlaR, no virus, no GURPS :>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:01:54 +0000
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

Gary wrote:

>The T-90 is another piece of trash, though they're finally going in the right
>direction.  As an aside, they'll probably never be able to produce enough of
>them to be any kind of threat (not that I consider a T-90 te be really much
>better than a T-80).  The Ukranian T-84 is much better than the T-90 IMO.  

Hmm. It's got the standard Russian tank problems (duff autoloaders,
terrible crew ergonomics). It's also got armour that will deflect a
120mm APFSDS-DU round (Kontact-5); and an anti-missile system to die
for.

>IMO, the BMP-3 is going on the other extreme from the M113.  The M2 is a nice,
>happy medium, though I don't respect the "IFV" concept much.  YMMV.

So where do you see the US going for the Bradley replacement? More IFV
or back to basics?

>It is or rather was.  We're phasing in the MPAT round.  It has an air switch
>to be used against helo's and air targets, though really if we ever have to
>*really* be concerned bout them means something is VERY wrong.  lol.    Think
>super-shotgun.  It's a bigger & heavier round, but quite impressive.  But
>first u use what's in the pipe.
> :-)   And have the loader put the appropriate round next.  I think a sabot
>round would work pretty decent against a BMP-3.

MPAT looked to me (on the noddy diagram I saw) like a smart-fused HEAT.
As you say, if you're trying to plink helos with a tank cannon then
something is already badly wrong.

>> If you're busy with heavy armour, the supporting fire from a BMP-3 is
>> more of a problem then from a -2.
>
>Won't be busy long, even w/ T-80s or T-90s, much less T-62s or T-72s.  :-)

Assuming that the next war will be similar to Desert Storm? Dangerous.
Vilani thinking, even.

>If they had heavy armor around, our tank units would be dueling them.  I was
>referring to the MBTs attached to an army armored cavalry troop (2 platoons,
>though given the current levels, it might be one or even an "element" of 2
>tanks).  IIRC, Warsaw Pact units didn't operate *that* way, though the current
>training focus isn't on the Russians anymore, but rather petty and lower tech
>types like Iraqis and North Koreans.

Tanks versus the enemy recce element isn't fair. Good news for your
side, though.

>> I see the Imperial Marines as a lot closer to the Marines in the days of
>> sail (shipboard security, boarding actions, limited landings) than
>> modern amphibious troops.
>
>They certainly do that role, but one major tactic in canon would be contrary:
>the meteoric assault.   Ships troops duties do come from the Imperial Marines,
>but jump troops have a very important role in Traveller planetary combat.
>First wave comes in by Jump.  These are probably almost always spearheaded by
>Imperial Marines w/ certain high caliber Imperial Army units next.  Then the
>bulk of the Imperial Army by troop transports, etc. 

Pretty much - Marines take and hold a dropzone, then the Army rolls in -
as opposed to the WWII use of Marines to take and clear entire islands.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:37:43 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Sniper Carlos Hathcock dies

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Carlos Hathcock wasn't just the most successful sniper in American military
> history, he was also a great Marine and a wonderful person.  I had the
> chance to shake his hand once, and he struck me as a very simple, pleasent
> person, at peace with himself and the world.
> We will never see the likes of him again.

I guess there are 97 vietnamese families, probably full of wonderful 
persons, who really don't care about don't seeing the likes of 
that man again. Sorry, but please realize that somebody could find 
this Off Topic american comment offensive. I do not want to start a 
flame war here, and I apologize if my comment in time offends 
somebody, but people who kill people in RL are touchy subjects which 
are better off-list. I read enough about killers in the newspapers. 
Let's go back to Traveller, please.

Carlos (not Hathcock), who personally finds more interesting the life 
of Carlos, the Jackal, but will not post here about him when he dies.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:28:22 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: World Building software? / WebSector

Scott Spieker wrote:-

>Ok,
>Now that we have gotten a few bites on the idea of the web sector, >what
about a fast easy way of using the world builder's handbook?  >Does anyone
know of any software that can that the UPP of the >system/main planet and
transcribe that information into human >readable text?
>A spreadsheet or anything else would be greatly appreciated.

You'll be wanting my World Builder Deluxe software. It generates extended
details from a UWP based on the rules contained in the World Builder's
Handbook. It also generates Encounter Tables, Psionic Instititutes details
and Economic details. The program will automatically create Extended World
Details for an entire Sector using standard SEC files.

I am currently working on the next version which will expand the generation
System wide. It will also generate the military capablities of the World.

The program can be downloaded from my website listed below.

I would certainly be interested in being involved in the Websector project.
I have been working with a few other TML members, Derrick Jones, Tom Bont
with the goal of creating a standardised extended file format for world,
system, subsectors and sectors. Perhaps we should set up a working group to
discuss it further?

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:46:46 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bradley vs M113

In a message dated 2/25/99 10:32:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, Matt-
C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< MPAT looked to me (on the noddy diagram I saw) like a smart-fused HEAT.
 As you say, if you're trying to plink helos with a tank cannon then
 something is already badly wrong. >>

My friend was an M60 platoon CO in the late 70's and they practiced killing
helo's with the main gun then...Sometimes the bad guys surprise you without
the fast movers, or AAA/SAM's around to do the job for you. Besides he was
trained to kill the "funny looking" tanks first (CO tanks, AA tanks, CE tanks,
etc.). If we do that; why can't the bad guys do that too?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:51:03 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> I have to say I've never understood the point of task difficulty levels.

	I think the point is to get a feeling of the differences in 
difficulties, discretizing the 2+, 3+, 4+, .... 15+ range into 
something more manageable.

> In MT (IIRC) each diff level had a target 3 higher than the one below it.

	4 higher. 3, 7, 11, 15

> Isn't this the same as saying "a -3 DM makes things hard, a +3 easy"?
> Instead of a string of DMs, you get a string of -3 or +3 DMs.

	Yes, but it works both ways. You can get rid of the diff levels, or 
of the DMs. I switched to a system "3-Task System" where levels are 
3 higher (6, 9, 12, 15, 18). Then, it makes few sense to have more 
than a +1 or -1 DM. But, rather than getting into the DMs without 
diff levels as you seem to suggest, I concentrate on the 
diff levels. A better set of tools makes the Difficult task Average. 
Bad observation conditions make the Difficult task Formidable. And so 
on. Instead of thinking in DMs and increase/decrease diff levels, you 
think mainly ony in changing diff levels, with occasional DMs for 
"refined" effects. Of course it IS the same tha having +3/-3 DMs, but 
you discretize things at a simpler level and play is quicker and 
ref's work easier. IMHO, of course. I rarely use DMs, normally change 
diff levels.

> I guess it just seems like an extra step to me.  Why tell a player "It's a
> Hard task, so that means roll 10+" instead of saying "Roll 10+"?  It all

That's a good point. But after a while, you get used to translating 
the diff levels into numbers, and there are fewer (3+, 6+, 9+, 12+, 
15+) and it is easier to get a feeling. There is a "cognitive 
dissonance" in discretizing directly to the numbers and ignoring the 
intermediate values.

> comes back to numbers in the end.  Players quickly get an intuitive sense
> of how hard it is to roll over a given target, and the GM retains the
> flexibility of naming any target he likes. 

	Yes, but having a more limited number of targets makes the ref's 
life easier (and that of players, too). I can't really get a feeling 
for the difference between 7+ and 8+, but there is a big enough jump 
between 6+ and 9+ to name them "Easy" and "Average" and keep them as 
two consecutive levels. Human mind is limited, specially when you 
want quick&dirty rules.

> One thing I do like is having standardized DMs for attributes, though, but
> I worked those out long before MT came out (divide by 3, round down was
> my system).

	Yep! Exactly the way my 3-Task System works. Want to share 
experiences? ;-) 

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:05:22 -0600
From: Eris reddoch <eris@gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task system

Clay _ wrote:
> 
> >IAC, what do you think of the following idea for a GURPS task
> >system...particularly a system for GT?
> >Task Task
> >Mod  Level
> >- -----------
> > +6  Easy
> > +3  Routine
> >  0  Normal
> > -3  Difficult
> > -6  Formidable
> > -9  Staggering
> > -12  Hopeless
> >Determine the difficulty of a Task and add the modifier to the
> >appropriate Skill or Attribute and other modifiers, then roll against
> >3d6.
> >Eris
> 
> This is very similar to the system I use for my GURPS Traveller game.

I can't claim it's unique. ;->  I think D Summers used something very
similar as well.

> I also use a chart with the same numbers to determine the degree of
> success (i.e. making a roll by 3 is an extra degree of success while
> making the roll by 6 is two extra degrees of success).

Could you expand on how you use degrees of success in your games?

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:20:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> I have to say I've never understood the point of task difficulty levels.
> In MT (IIRC) each diff level had a target 3 higher than the one below it.

Actually, the MT task system set a series of target numbers that were 
spaced 4 apart.  The skills listed were applied directly as modifiers 
to the 2D6 roll.  Thus, under MT (and CT, too, if you use the DGP 
Task System), Difficulty determines the target roll needed to 
accomplish the task.

The difficulty determining target remained the same in TNE, but was 
changed to number of dice in T4, I think.  (I don't play T4, so I can 
only guess from books I've flipped through.)

In other words, the game mechanic shifted from one specific die roll
with mods vs a variable target (CT/MT), to variable die rolls vs a 
(specific or variable, not sure) target (T4/T5).

Either way, the difficulty levels provide a systematic means of 
documenting and referencing die rolls within the specific system, and 
establishes a common mechanic that can be used to predictably 
evaluate a character's performance when attempting certain tasks.

Before the task system concept evolved, CT had seemingly arbitrary 
selections of die rolls and modifiers that changed from skill to 
skill and situation to situation.  While some gamers like that level 
of freedom, others prefer a more structured approach.  It's all a 
matter of taste, though.

I hope this helps clear up the concept a touch.  Good luck, and Happy 
Travellin'.

In Service,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:08:49 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Prissy aunts of the TML

Great. another pinheaded jerk. I won't have to unsub after this, because
I'll probably be KICKED off.


>He _didn't_ say  :
>"Yo muthafuckers, which of you zoned-out crackheads is going to tell
>me why GT should be inserted sideways up Clinton's ass?"


It takes far less intelligence than your average igneous rock to talk like
this.

The problem was not the question "what sucks about GURPS Traveller". The
problem was and is the abusive responses to people who expressed their
opinion that NOTHING 'sucks' about it. Some of us chose to say that despite
what others perceive as problems, we don't think it sucks. Rather than
calmly replying, or better yet rephrasing his original question in a less
inflammatory manner, Clif chose to do what you have done; acted like an
idiot. That ticked me off.


>Oh, and BTW, to the person who threatened to leave the list :
>"Like, we care ?"


Since you like this kind of talk, I don't give a rat's ass whether you care
or not. I have the right to protest what I feel is INAPPROPRIATE and
ANNOYING behavior from a bunch of trolls who don't have two brain cells to
rub together and are just trying to cause trouble.


>Basically, the people complaining about Cliff need to grow up, get a
>life, and realize they're not in kindergarten anymore, and that the
>TML is a forum for people to discuss things related to Traveller, not
>a discussion group for Mrs Beatson's Guide to Etiquette,  Mannerly
>Living, and the One Hundred and One Things a True Lady Should Not  Be
>Seen Doing In Public

Explain to me how spouting off with profanity and being majorly insulting to
people is discussing Traveller? And what exactly is wrong with good manners?
or maybe your momma never taught you any?

>And before you reply to Cliff again about how you think he should
>phrase his posts, (or before you respond to this post, for that
>matter) just think about the supposed principles of free speech in the
>country many of you hail from, the Vulcan IDIC principle,

The Vulcan "IDIC" principle was a marketing gimmick made up by Gene
Roddenberry to sell some pendants he wanted to market through Lincoln
Enterprises. If you really think Roddenberry believed that crap, go back and
look at how he treated women in both the original series and TNG. And Most
of us don't build our lives around a philosophy created for a TV show..those
of us with brains anyway. (I do like Star Trek, but this irritates me)

I suggest you get something done about this severe case of rectal-cranial
inversion before you pop off about something else.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:17:12 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Apology

I am apologizing to the rest of the list for the message I recently posted.
I sunk to the level of behavior that I've been complaining about, and I am
sorry. Please note this is not an apology for what was said; just for saying
it here.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:39:15 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Pyramid

Sword Worlder <swordworlder@yahoo.com> writes:
>Sales tax, as they mentioned when you sign up. The MiB get that =:-o

Well, up here in the Great White sales tax is only charged to residents of
the province, for goods that are shipped outside the province. This also
applies to services.

Guess things are different down South in the 'Land of the Fee' :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:44:51 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Task systems vs. Modifier systems

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:
>I guess it just seems like an extra step to me.  Why tell a player "It's a
>Hard task, so that means roll 10+" instead of saying "Roll 10+"?  It all
>comes back to numbers in the end.  Players quickly get an intuitive sense
>of how hard it is to roll over a given target, and the GM retains the
>flexibility of naming any target he likes. 

Because a lot of people find the words are easier to understand than the
modifiers.

In many of my games I rolled all the dice myself, especially with
beginning players. I described the task ("That looks hard, easier if you'e
dexterous and a trained medic"), they decided if they'd try it, then I
rolled dice. The concentrated on role-playing.

A lot of people get confused/bothered by numbers, even if it is the same
thing. Just look at the endless half-die debates!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:40:51 -0500
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Prissy aunts of the TML

>>Oh, and BTW, to the person who threatened to leave the list :
>>"Like, we care ?"

Thats part of your problem, you dont.


>>Basically, the people complaining about Cliff need to grow up, get a
>>life, and realize they're not in kindergarten anymore, and that the
>>TML is a forum for people to discuss things related to Traveller, 
>not
>>a discussion group for Mrs Beatson's Guide to Etiquette,  Mannerly
>>Living, and the One Hundred and One Things a True Lady Should Not  
>Be
>>Seen Doing In Public

Just because we're not in Kindergarten is no excuse to act like you are. 
Seriously, if you expect to be heard reasonably, you have speak and act
reasonably.  In public, we could simply leave, but thats not quite so
simple here.  Frankly, if we spent a little more time in this country
worrying about what WAS mannerly, we'd be better off, rather than being
worried about our supposed rights to free speech.


>>And before you reply to Cliff again about how you think he should
>>phrase his posts, (or before you respond to this post, for that
>>matter) just think about the supposed principles of free speech in 
>the
>>country many of you hail from, the Vulcan IDIC principle,
>

Vulcan IDIC.  Get real.  We live in a country where, fortuantely, we have
a great latitude of action.  However, some of us forget that such
latitude is no excuse to do whatever we want, wherever we want, whenever
we want, and to hades with the rest of those around.  
You and Clif are the ones who need to get a life, and stop scampering
about acting like foul mouthed pre schoolers.

JimC
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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #199
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